Guild Wars 2

“lifestyle choice” do you know that neither the world health organization nor the american psychiatrist association (probably the biggest 2 entities that have knowledge about this, after years of several studies) believe being gay or straight to be a choice?
people who have really no idea on what they’re talking about really bring the level of the discussion down.

Man, this little robot just walked in my room, waving its cute tube arms and blaring “DANGER, DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER.” …wonder why? I was just reading this thread.

Maybe you should quit discussing then

Dashingsteel.3410:

race and a lifestyle choice are not the same

Sure, if sexuality were strictly a lifestyle choice, I’d agree. But it’s not been proven that it is (with valid, tested scientific proof to back up that hypothesis). Even if it were 100% a choice, it wouldn’t excuse the horrific way some people choose to treat lgbt people. It wouldn’t excuse the Stonewall Inn incident, Brandon Teena and Matthew Shephard’s brutal murders, and the number of slurs other types of discrimination and hate thrown at people who are lgbt.

Dashingsteel.3410:

race and a lifestyle choice are not the same

Yes, tell us about the day that you woke up and decided who you are attracted to. While you are at it, I will tell you about the day I chose not to like chocolate… A lady at the store handed me a chocolate candy bar and said “Do you like chocolate?” to which I replied “I have chosen not to like chocolate, but thank you. I think I’m going to choose to like the taste of vanilla instead.”

The sheer volume of arguments against the new NPC in this thread that boil down to “I am offended by this, so my beliefs/opinions need to take priority over those of everyone who thinks differently, even if mine offend them” is amazing.

Moral relativism is a truly mindblowing concept, I know.

The real crux of this entire argument is that some people thing lgbt are born that way and other people don’t buy that argument. I think it is a lifestyle choice. Those lifestyles offend me because of my religious beliefs. I am sure that I will be insulted in myriad ways once again.. I am a paying customer of anet and would like them to know that I wasn’t thankful for this npc.

Beautiful thread. I love to see bigots trampling in their own foot.

Well.. religion sure IS a lifestile choice. So you do choose to be offended.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Trying to compare lgbt to race is ridiculous

Totes. People of color have been (and still are) subjected to horrific torture, murder, injustice, etc. It’s not like gay, bi, or trans people have to worry about being tortured or murdered just for being gay, bi, or trans. And it’s not like lgbt people are ever discriminated against or have slurs shouted at them. Completely different!

/sarcasm

Ok, I’m getting pretty ticked by this.

And why should this be brought into this VIDEO GAME, why? It’s a form of ESCAPISM, enjoyment, FUN. Those themes are not fun, they are horrendous harsh realities and are being brought into the game by the very people complaining about them because they think this minor NPC sends a message.

Fact is, that making yourself seem like you must receive special notice/recognition because of this one NPC’s aspect is just having the opposite effect, people are seeing you wanting special attention just because of something like that, something which isn’t even a real factor in the game. This NPC should be part of a narrative, a part of the world we are in, this one aspect of them which to be frank isn’t even a major factor in the story, shouldn’t be the end all. But the gushing that is going on is getting noticed for ALL THE WRONG REASONS.

We aren’t ignorant to the problems there are in reality, oh hell no we aren’t. I for one however do not want to have to have these fog the game itself, it’s not a platform for these issues and it shouldn’t be, this is GUILD Wars 2, not PRIVLEDGE Wars 2. People aren’t intentionally out to give you grief or feed these real world issues into your face.

As I mentioned in a previous post the fact the NPC’s dialogue should we engage with it forces us to say without choice that they are “brave” for their choice just reeks of self congratulatory and vanity over an aspect which should just be as natural as can be, especially when this is a video game. Nobody should be more special than any other from that aspect, people’s recognition in universe and out should be on the quality of their character. The message that character should be sending is that they feel life is too precious and short and they need to seize the day, do what they feel is right. Not WHAT they did, WHY they did.

I apologise if I’m getting gradually more aggressive in tone over the the thread but this is one issue I’ve been facing in the gaming world day after day and I’m not going to name the groups responsible more for attributing to that, but I’m sure we know who they are. It’s utterly mindboggling.

On the other side of the fence, some of the harsher jokes toward the LGBT community is just childish, it certainly isn’t helping matters and only fuels the need for them to put this issue forward and there is really not much more to be said other than…grow up.

I’d love to see this issue as a whole put to rest, not BEING an issue again and we can just focus on something like balance changes, why Tequatl is now brittle as a dry noodle, than this sort of thing. I don’t log in for these things and I’m sure plenty others of whatever camp don’t either, this may be in one thread for now, don’t risk it blowing over.

Remember Dashingsteel: Offence can only be taken, not given.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Trying to compare lgbt to race is ridiculous

If you’ve never heard of the famous song by the Black singer Billie Holliday, Strange Fruit, there are many resemblances between what happened to black people in the US and how the LGBT community was treated and still is in many parts of the world

And may we never forget Emmet Till

If this NPC was male and became female, wouldn’t that make him/her a transsexual rather than merely transgender? I suppose the former is just an extension of the latter, but I want to be sure we’re all speaking with the same terms here.

LandStander.7094:

Dashingsteel.3410:

race and a lifestyle choice are not the same

Yes, tell us about the day that you woke up and decided who you are attracted to. While you are at it, I will tell you about the day I chose not to like chocolate… A lady at the store handed me a chocolate candy bar and said “Do you like chocolate?” to which I replied “I have chosen not to like chocolate, but thank you. I think I’m going to choose to like the taste of vanilla instead.”

Seems legit. For real, I had a very thought provoking experience on that issue when I was maybe four. Results: chocolate ice cream and dark chocolate were a no no. Milk chocolate candy was ok and ranked higher than hard candy. Years later I discovered the joys of peanut butter chocolate ice cream and was forced to revise my list.

I think yes, people have fixed tastes, sexual preferences, and gender identity. However, given time and different life experiences these can change. Am I saying we should try to change other people? No. Definitely not. The middle ground is not always true, but often there is some truth in both sides of an argument.

Sarevok.2638:

Fact is, that making yourself seem like you must receive special notice/recognition because of this one NPC’s aspect is just having the opposite effect, people are seeing you wanting special attention just because of something like that, something which isn’t even a real factor in the game. This NPC should be part of a narrative, a part of the world we are in, this one aspect of them which to be frank isn’t even a major factor in the story, shouldn’t be the end all. But the gushing that is going on is getting noticed for ALL THE WRONG REASONS.

Are you directing that at me, specifically? My only comment about the NPC itself is that it’s a small part of the game and has no bearing on any story in the game. It’s a nice gesture, but nothing about me is tied to the acceptance or denial of this character. And my comment that you quoted was, indeed, about real life which the person I was quoting was also referring to. Real life affects art, and that’s true even in fantasy-based video games. And discussions will happen, even about things that make some people uncomfortable.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Sarevok.2638:

Fact is, that making yourself seem like you must receive special notice/recognition because of this one NPC’s aspect is just having the opposite effect, people are seeing you wanting special attention just because of something like that, something which isn’t even a real factor in the game. This NPC should be part of a narrative, a part of the world we are in, this one aspect of them which to be frank isn’t even a major factor in the story, shouldn’t be the end all. But the gushing that is going on is getting noticed for ALL THE WRONG REASONS.

Are you directing that at me, specifically? My only comment about the NPC itself is that it’s a small part of the game and has no bearing on any story in the game. It’s a nice gesture, but nothing about me is tied to the acceptance or denial of this character. And my comment that you quoted was, indeed, about real life which the person I was quoting was also referring to.

No not really, it was to the people gushing over the NPC, it just broiled over into my overall post because well, reading this makes me need an outlet. My bad, I’m not terribly good at large posts, my mind just goes on a train and my hands note the journey.

You are right, it is a small NPC, no overall bearing on the story, but the knock on effect it has had because of this one thing…..BLARGHDFGFDGFD………

Sarevok.2638:

As I mentioned in a previous post the fact the NPC’s dialogue should we engage with it forces us to…

Dude, have you played this game? There’s a lot of “off-hand” dialogue that just assumes something and doesn’t really bother to carve multiple choices out for the characters. It’s set up that way because, generally, this kind of minor explanatory chatter isn’t really a space for “roleplaying” a character anyway.

You’re seeing a sinister agenda (or, actually, a non-sinister agenda) in something that’s entirely standard for GW2 NPC interactions.

Sarevok.2638:

I apologise if I’m getting gradually more aggressive in tone over the the thread but this is one issue I’ve been facing in the gaming world day after day and I’m not going to name the groups responsible more for attributing to that, but I’m sure we know who they are. It’s utterly mindboggling.

Your previous post indicates that you’re going to drag this all into “Gamergate” nonsense.

If you’re finding yourself more and more agitated about some LGBT folks and their friends expressing their happiness over a few lines of text in a game — or their disapproval of folks who literally say that any representation of them in media is somehow inherently political or distasteful, — my recommendation to you is to stop consuming three-hour long videos where a guy cries about “SJWs” all day long.

Learn to live and let live, dude.

Sarevok.2638:

RoseofGilead.8907:

Sarevok.2638:

Fact is, that making yourself seem like you must receive special notice/recognition because of this one NPC’s aspect is just having the opposite effect, people are seeing you wanting special attention just because of something like that, something which isn’t even a real factor in the game. This NPC should be part of a narrative, a part of the world we are in, this one aspect of them which to be frank isn’t even a major factor in the story, shouldn’t be the end all. But the gushing that is going on is getting noticed for ALL THE WRONG REASONS.

Are you directing that at me, specifically? My only comment about the NPC itself is that it’s a small part of the game and has no bearing on any story in the game. It’s a nice gesture, but nothing about me is tied to the acceptance or denial of this character. And my comment that you quoted was, indeed, about real life which the person I was quoting was also referring to.

No not really, it was to the people gushing over the NPC, it just broiled over into my overall post because well, reading this makes me need an outlet. My bad, I’m not terribly good at large posts, my mind just goes on a train and my hands note the journey.

You are right, it is a small NPC, no overall bearing on the story, but the knock on effect it has had because of this one thing…..BLARGHDFGFDGFD………

No worries. I also tend to get my signals crossed when I’m feeling rather impassioned about something I’m trying to comment on. Things tend to come out all garbled. :p

coso.9173:

sexual orientation or gender identity is not what defines us, but it plays a bit role on what we are. I am a gay male, and that is a pretty big part of who I am as a person, I’m much more than that of course, I like art, I like comics, videogames and sport and I always try to be funny. those are also parts of who I am as a person, but all of them play a big role on my identity.

I read that and thought “oooh what kinds of comics?”.

Growing up with gay friends made me see them as no different than me and that’s why I welcome and encourage Anet and other companies to fully include LGBT characters into their games. The more you’re around someone who is “different” the less “different” they seem, until one day all you see is your friend.

This isn’t as I’ve read on some of these posts about “shoving it down your throat” (seriously, they’re anti gay and say that? … Awkward), it’s about not hiding the fact that not everyone is the same and that’s a great thing.

Putting characters like Kas and Jory, Taimi, and Sya into the game doesn’t push the (lesbian, disabled, or transgender) agenda of a group it puts charaters players can relate to into a game. I don’t know what this agenda so many are worried about is other than equality and who can possibly be against that?

TL/DR I want Sya in the next LS.

You know, we’ve got gender-mystifying plant people and whatever the heck are going on with Char. On top of the teetering-on-the-brink-of-ragnarok thing Tyria has going on, people in character probably have waaaay bigger things and clearer lines to draw than this issue.

I remember a line from an old Shadowrun book’s RP materials- racial tension had all but disappeared- why are you worried about someone’s skin color with that THING over there has hands the size of your head?

It’s not like this is being forcibly pushed on people….I would never have known but for this thread so I have no idea why some are so up at arms about this. Kudos to Anet for having an open mind.

Pretty difficult to keep a “respectful” tone when anything you have to say besides “this is awesome we need more of it” is considered a direct attack and people immediately go to defcon 5 because you’re not on “their team”.

You can’t have a rational debate based on arguments if scientific arguments offend the person you’re debating.

Like I asked before – why is it that we have a MTF and no FTM NPC? Now that we’ve acknowledged this group of individuals what group is next? Is this one NPC supposed to stand as a banner for ALL categories that make up the hugely varied spectrum of atypical individuals?

Also on the topic of “he” vs “she” – I understand that these individuals feel a certain way about themselves and do not necessarily identify with their biological identity. That’s fine.

But for me – who perceives them as that biological entity which they are ( regardless of their own inner perceptions) – why is it wrong to call them with the normal pronoun associated with that biological entity? My perception of them is mine. It is subjective.

Is it wrong that I choose to perceive them in my own way instead of the way they themselves want to be perceived?

These are serious questions – and it would be interesting to see how people feel about them and what their answers would be.

If you’re offended by the transgender NPC or think she’s inappropriate you’re transphobic, end of. If you really believe you’re not then I suggest looking closer at your ‘excuses’ as to why this NPC shouldn’t be allowed to exist. If you are aware that you’re transphobic it’s your type that makes me feel ashamed to be human.

Let’s all just live and let live okay? LGBT people are NOT hurting you in any way by existing. YOU are the one hurting THEM by being hateful and telling them they shouldn’t be allowed to exist. So who should we really think of as being offensive? You’re the problem, not them.

Moderator, I am requesting this thread be deleted… its a cesspool of hate from both sides, and has nothing to do with the game. Or at least move it to the off topic designated forum area.

Fay.2735:

If you’re offended by the transgender NPC or think she’s inappropriate you’re transphobic, end of. If you really believe you’re not then I suggest looking closer at your ‘excuses’ as to why this NPC shouldn’t be allowed to exist. If you are aware that you’re transphobic it’s your type that makes me feel ashamed to be human. Let’s all just live and let live okay? LGBT people are NOT hurting you in any way by existing. YOU are the one hurting THEM by being hateful and telling them they shouldn’t be allowed to exist. So who should we really think of as being offensive?

I think you’re wrong calling people phobic. A phobia isn’t what you think it is.
If you look up phobia it means this : “In clinical psychology, a phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.”

If I dislike something or do not agree with something doesn’t necessarily make it a phobia.
If I don’t particularly like cats and have objections to a cat being in a place that doesn’t mean I have ailurophobia (fear of cats).

I think you’re too lax in your labeling things phobias.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Moderator, I am requesting this thread be deleted… its a cesspool of hate from both sides, and has nothing to do with the game. Or at least move it to the off topic designated forum area.

I request that this be kept alive as long the game is. This NPC has raised awareness and that leads to understanding. No name calling, no insults, just talk.

Okay, to the anti-Syas, I ask this.

I am a biological male. I am gender neutral. I have neither masculine nor feminine traits, in fact I simply cannot relate to strong male traits at all (or to female for that matter).

I play females in game because a. I find them less threatening and b. I can escape what we used to call my ‘mun’ and be someone I cannot hope to be in real life. Basically, I identify as female in character when I play a female character. (I would never use this to actually deceive anyone offline).

Since I am biological male, would you deny me the right to play a female character? Would you like it if players’ accounts were tied to their offline identity and you were only allowed to play a character that matched your biological gender?

I’m not going to bring religion into this except by saying that if you are offended by me or LGBT people because of your religion, then I am offended by your religion!

Harper.4173:

You can’t have a rational debate based on arguments if scientific arguments offend the person you’re debating.

A gaming forum isn’t the right place to “debate” someone’s basic dignity or right to self-determination.

Even if you haphazardly slather some SCIENCE! over it.

GuzziHero.2467:

Okay, to the anti-Syas, I ask this.

I am a biological male. I am gender neutral. I have neither masculine nor feminine traits, in fact I simply cannot relate to strong male traits at all (or to female for that matter).

I play females in game because a. I find them less threatening and b. I can escape what we used to call my ‘mun’ and be someone I cannot hope to be in real life. Basically, I identify as female in character when I play a female character. (I would never use this to actually deceive anyone offline).

Since I am biological male, would you deny me the right to play a female character? Would you like it if players’ accounts were tied to their offline identity and you were only allowed to play a character that matched your biological gender?

NO, I would not deny you that right, I don’t judge you based on it, what I take from you is….

1. Your personality and what hits my chat bar
2. Your ability to not throw down guardian fields when we are might stacking in a fire field. (basically, how well you play)
3. If we are on the same map or not.

Straight, LGBT, does NOT play a factor in ***ANY*** of these things.

As for that above post about locking/purging/burning this thread, SECONDED.

ASP.8093:

Harper.4173:

You can’t have a rational debate based on arguments if scientific arguments offend the person you’re debating.

A gaming forum isn’t the right place to “debate” someone’s basic dignity or right to self-determination.

Even if you haphazardly slather some SCIENCE! over it.

So why then do we have 10 pages of this thread?
If this thread happened – and if awareness and informing people are good and things you want to happen then I’m more than willing to be informed – either in this thread or in a PM.
I am curious what the answers to my questions are.

Why do you claim you want to get people informed and aware but refuse to discuss?
Also we’re not discussing any real person – so I think everyone can keep their dignity out of this. Hypothetical discussions are hypothetical – but here you are making it about somebody’s dignity.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

this game and its forum is not intended to be a banner for anyones ideology/sexuality/theology/or what have you. Its about a game, and should remain such. Place this in the off topic area if you want, but it has no business in the gameplay discussion threads.

That’s the point of Sya though. Putting this this topic out of sight is the opposite of inclusion.

Harper.4173:

Also on the topic of “he” vs “she” – I understand that these individuals feel a certain way about themselves and do not necessarily identify with their biological identity. That’s fine.

But for me – who perceives them as that biological entity which they are ( regardless of their own inner perceptions) – why is it wrong to call them with the normal pronoun associated with that biological entity? My perception of them is mine. It is subjective.

Is it wrong that I choose to perceive them in my own way instead of the way they themselves want to be perceived?

These are serious questions – and it would be interesting to see how people feel about them and what their answers would be.

Because it has an emotional connotation for them that you are completely ignoring? You are choosing, by ignoring both their wishes and presentation to actively cause them emotional harm for the sake of a word. Basic human decency and politeness would dictate that you, being aware that it hurts them, wouldn’t do it. But some people just aren’t polite or decent I guess.

Harper.4173:

So why then do we have 10 pages of this thread?

Things you could do in this thread that don’t involve trying to “debate” the legitimacy of trans identity (all taken from actual examples in this thread):
1. Express your reaction to seeing Sya in the game. (Unless your reaction is straight-up screeching bigotry, which would violate the ToS; note how many people who were less-than-comfortable managed to say something and not get banned or have their posts deleted, however! The mods obviously aren’t being overzealous.)
2. Mention other characters you’d like to see.
3. Discuss issues about media representation, such as tokenism and erasure. <- This is a big one. You could easily have a 50-page thread about this.
4. Have opinions about the dialogue, or Sya’s wardrobe choices, or whatever.
5. Talk about how Total Makeover Kits fit into the game’s lore now that physical transition is clearly established as feasible in the setting.
6. All kinds of other stuff, I’m sure.

Note how many of these are effectively “negative” responses and yet don’t involve attacking the very idea of self-determined gender identity or trans people’s right to exist in society!

This isn’t rocket science.

It’s just that some people really want to have that one “debate” anywhere they can find it, no matter how inappropriate or unwelcome it is.

Aidenwolf.5964:

CorrynnStarr.7942:

this game and its forum is not intended to be a banner for anyones ideology/sexuality/theology/or what have you. Its about a game, and should remain such. Place this in the off topic area if you want, but it has no business in the gameplay discussion threads.

That’s the point of Sya though. Putting this this topic out of sight is the opposite of inclusion.

Has nothing to do with inclusion or exclusion… this is just the wrong forum area for this discussion is all. We have moved from the “thank you anet for your inclusion of an npc” to “how does sexuality and ideology affect us in the real world.” Move it to the off topic where it belongs. Once again… its just off topic. And moderators… delete my posts if you want, but you know I am right.

imsoenthused.1634:

Harper.4173:

Also on the topic of “he” vs “she” – I understand that these individuals feel a certain way about themselves and do not necessarily identify with their biological identity. That’s fine.

But for me – who perceives them as that biological entity which they are ( regardless of their own inner perceptions) – why is it wrong to call them with the normal pronoun associated with that biological entity? My perception of them is mine. It is subjective.

Is it wrong that I choose to perceive them in my own way instead of the way they themselves want to be perceived?

These are serious questions – and it would be interesting to see how people feel about them and what their answers would be.

Because it has an emotional connotation for them that you are completely ignoring? You are choosing, by ignoring both their wishes and presentation to actively cause them emotional harm for the sake of a word. Basic human decency and politeness would dictate that you, being aware that it hurts them, wouldn’t do it. But some people just aren’t polite or decent I guess.

Ok I get that but if that’s true then shouldn’t all issues of this matter be treated equally?

If I’m short but it has a very negative emotional impact on me can I then demand that the people around me treat me as if I were tall?

It is a biological trait that I dislike or do not identify with that I want others to perceive as I do rather than how they do.

Harper.4173:

I think you’re wrong calling people phobic. A phobia isn’t what you think it is.
If you look up phobia it means this : “In clinical psychology, a phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.”

If I dislike something or do not agree with something doesn’t necessarily make it a phobia.
If I don’t particularly like cats and have objections to a cat being in a place that doesn’t mean I have ailurophobia (fear of cats).

I think you’re too lax in your labeling things phobias.

Oh my apologies, let me clarify, I meant hatred towards transgender people and fear of anyone who doesn’t ascribe to cultural notions of what gender they should be and therefore demanding they do not exist because who knows what scary things might happen if we admit to their existence right? Also see:

Fay.2735:

I suggest looking closer at your ‘excuses’ as to why this NPC shouldn’t be allowed to exist.

imsoenthused.1634:

Harper.4173:

Also on the topic of “he” vs “she” – I understand that these individuals feel a certain way about themselves and do not necessarily identify with their biological identity. That’s fine.

But for me – who perceives them as that biological entity which they are ( regardless of their own inner perceptions) – why is it wrong to call them with the normal pronoun associated with that biological entity? My perception of them is mine. It is subjective.

Is it wrong that I choose to perceive them in my own way instead of the way they themselves want to be perceived?

These are serious questions – and it would be interesting to see how people feel about them and what their answers would be.

Because it has an emotional connotation for them that you are completely ignoring? You are choosing, by ignoring both their wishes and presentation to actively cause them emotional harm for the sake of a word. Basic human decency and politeness would dictate that you, being aware that it hurts them, wouldn’t do it. But some people just aren’t polite or decent I guess.

“You are choosing, by ignoring their preconceived notions of gender identity to actively cause them emotional harm for the sake of your own feeling of self-worth. Basic human decency and politeness would dictate that you, being aware that it hurts them, wouldn’t do it. But some people just aren’t polite or decent I guess.”

I’m not saying the two are equivalent; at the end of the day, a person’s desire to be comfortable in their own body outweighs the feelings of discomfort that an observer might have. I’m just saying that the argument from the other side holds some water as well.

imsoenthused.1634:

Harper.4173:

Also on the topic of “he” vs “she” – I understand that these individuals feel a certain way about themselves and do not necessarily identify with their biological identity. That’s fine.

But for me – who perceives them as that biological entity which they are ( regardless of their own inner perceptions) – why is it wrong to call them with the normal pronoun associated with that biological entity? My perception of them is mine. It is subjective.

Is it wrong that I choose to perceive them in my own way instead of the way they themselves want to be perceived?

These are serious questions – and it would be interesting to see how people feel about them and what their answers would be.

Because it has an emotional connotation for them that you are completely ignoring? You are choosing, by ignoring both their wishes and presentation to actively cause them emotional harm for the sake of a word. Basic human decency and politeness would dictate that you, being aware that it hurts them, wouldn’t do it. But some people just aren’t polite or decent I guess.

So one person’s emotions matter more than another person’s.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Aidenwolf.5964:

CorrynnStarr.7942:

this game and its forum is not intended to be a banner for anyones ideology/sexuality/theology/or what have you. Its about a game, and should remain such. Place this in the off topic area if you want, but it has no business in the gameplay discussion threads.

That’s the point of Sya though. Putting this this topic out of sight is the opposite of inclusion.

Has nothing to do with inclusion or exclusion… this is just the wrong forum area for this discussion is all. We have moved from the “thank you anet for your inclusion of an npc” to “how does sexuality and ideology affect us in the real world.” Move it to the off topic where it belongs. Once again… its just off topic. And moderators… delete my posts if you want, but you know I am right.

CorrynnStarr is right and it is getting out of hand too.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Moderator, I am requesting this thread be deleted… its a cesspool of hate from both sides, and has nothing to do with the game. Or at least move it to the off topic designated forum area.

ASP.8093:

Harper.4173:

So why then do we have 10 pages of this thread?

Things you could do in this thread that don’t involve trying to “debate” the legitimacy of trans identity (all taken from actual examples in this thread):
1. Express your reaction to seeing Sya in the game. (Unless your reaction is straight-up screeching bigotry, which would violate the ToS; note how many people who were less-than-comfortable managed to say something and not get banned or have their posts deleted, however! The mods obviously aren’t being overzealous.)
2. Mention other characters you’d like to see.
3. Discuss issues about media representation, such as tokenism and erasure. <- This is a big one. You could easily have a 50-page thread about this.
4. Have opinions about the dialogue, or Sya’s wardrobe choices, or whatever.
5. Talk about how Total Makeover Kits fit into the game’s lore now that physical transition is clearly established as feasible in the setting.
6. All kinds of other stuff, I’m sure.

Note how many of these are effectively “negative” responses and yet don’t involve attacking the very idea of self-determined gender identity or trans people’s right to exist in society!

This isn’t rocket science.

It’s just that some people really want to have that one “debate” anywhere they can find it, no matter how inappropriate or unwelcome it is.

1. I have already expressed a statement about Sya – I do not care that he/she exists.
2. I’d like to see less LS characters and more LS story.
3. Perhaps.
4. Don’t particularly care what NPCs wear.
5. They’re convenient I guess.
6. I could ignore the topic at hand and chatter – sure – but I would like to be informed. That’s why I came here. It’s what you claim to want people to be. Informed and aware. Maybe if you did that you might actually win ground. I certainly would like to know and understand more about a thing that I’m not very familiar with since my country doesn’t really have this phenomenon.

If that’s unwelcome I guess that says a lot.

Harper.4173:

Ok I get that but if that’s true then shouldn’t all issues of this matter be treated equally?

If I’m short but it has a very negative emotional impact on me can I then demand that the people around me treat me as if I were tall?

It is a biological trait that I dislike or do not identify with that I want others to perceive as I do rather than how they do.

Let’s imagine you truly suffer from severe dysphoria because of your height. It has led to emotional pain and trauma your entire life, up to and including thoughts of suicide. So you decide to do something about it, and with the help of doctors they agonizingly break and stretch your legs until you now stand at an acceptable average height and no longer feel awful about yourself. Sure it’s not perfect, maybe your proportions are a little off, but you are no longer drowning in emotional pain. Except for your one horrible neighbor who calls you dwarf and shorty every time he sees you, and insists that it’s not an insult or bad, because biologically that’s what you are, even if you’ve resorted to surgery to hide it.

Sounds like a really nice guy, doesn’t he.

Harper.4173:

imsoenthused.1634:

Harper.4173:

Also on the topic of “he” vs “she” – I understand that these individuals feel a certain way about themselves and do not necessarily identify with their biological identity. That’s fine.

But for me – who perceives them as that biological entity which they are ( regardless of their own inner perceptions) – why is it wrong to call them with the normal pronoun associated with that biological entity? My perception of them is mine. It is subjective.

Is it wrong that I choose to perceive them in my own way instead of the way they themselves want to be perceived?

These are serious questions – and it would be interesting to see how people feel about them and what their answers would be.

Because it has an emotional connotation for them that you are completely ignoring? You are choosing, by ignoring both their wishes and presentation to actively cause them emotional harm for the sake of a word. Basic human decency and politeness would dictate that you, being aware that it hurts them, wouldn’t do it. But some people just aren’t polite or decent I guess.

Ok I get that but if that’s true then shouldn’t all issues of this matter be treated equally?

If I’m short but it has a very negative emotional impact on me can I then demand that the people around me treat me as if I were tall?

It is a biological trait that I dislike or do not identify with that I want others to perceive as I do rather than how they do.

“If I’m short but it has a very negative emotional impact on me can I then demand that the people around me treat me as if I were tall? "

Yes, in the sense they don’t treat you as being inferior or lesser for being short. Not make jokes/comments about short people aiming to hurt. Not kill, threaten, hit, etc.. for being short. Not pass laws against being short that carry the death penalty or jail sentence. Not forbid you to marry another short person, because they are short. Not fire you from your job once they see you’re short. Not be thrown out by your parents on to the streets to fend for yourself at a young age, for the “sin” of being short.

All that and more, you can ask for. Just like a tall person.

The entitlement complex is strong with the reactionaries. “I demand this game conform to my heteronormativity”. There’s no cabal of gay’s oppressing you using their plans laid out in the protocols of the elders of gaytopia. Just people that are glad that anet recognized that trans-people exist. As a white heterosexual male I have grown up with plenty of positive representation in media and the inclusion of people unlike me in media does not offend me nor is it an attack on me. It’s not forcing their characteristics or identity on me but simple representing the variety that exists among people. Its astounding how upset people get over a npc that just mentions she used to be a guy. I know, you got a A in 10th grade science class so you’re an expert on sexuality and gender norms and you’re just educating us dumb people.

Fay.2735:

Harper.4173:

I think you’re wrong calling people phobic. A phobia isn’t what you think it is.
If you look up phobia it means this : “In clinical psychology, a phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.”

If I dislike something or do not agree with something doesn’t necessarily make it a phobia.
If I don’t particularly like cats and have objections to a cat being in a place that doesn’t mean I have ailurophobia (fear of cats).

I think you’re too lax in your labeling things phobias.

Oh my apologies, let me clarify, I meant hatred towards transgender people and fear of anyone who doesn’t ascribe to cultural notions of what gender they should be and therefore demanding they do not exist because who knows what scary things might happen if we admit to their existence right? Also see:

Fay.2735:

I suggest looking closer at your ‘excuses’ as to why this NPC shouldn’t be allowed to exist.

I think your views border a little on the extreme. If I dislike something -regardless of what it is or isn’t – that doesn’t automatically means I’m scared of it and I want it to not exist.

What if I dislike some type of car? Does that mean I want that brand to cease existing? Does that mean I cower with fear internally each time one passes me by in the street?

Sarevok.2638:

Ok, I’m getting pretty ticked by this.

And why should this be brought into this VIDEO GAME, why? It’s a form of ESCAPISM, enjoyment, FUN. Those themes are not fun, they are horrendous harsh realities and are being brought into the game by the very people complaining about them because they think this minor NPC sends a message.

Yeah, this argument needs to stop. The existence of a transgender NPC in-game is not a “horrendous harsh reality”.

For some people who may be struggling with transgender issues in real life, seeing a happy, healthy, and productive transgender person in-game is a form of “ESCAPISM, enjoyment, and FUN” for them.

None of the characters in-game are complaining about her, there is no storyline about transgender issues. NONE of what you are claiming to be bothered by is actually IN THE GAME.

Harper.4173:

1. I have already expressed a statement about Sya – I do not care that he/she exists.

Then maybe this thread doesn’t require your continued involvement. That’s okay! I drive by dozens of threads I don’t care about every day. I don’t post in them.

Harper.4173:

6. I could ignore the topic at hand and chatter – sure – but I would like to be informed. That’s why I came here. It’s what you claim to want people to be. Informed and aware. Maybe if you did that you might actually win ground. I certainly would like to know and understand more about a thing that I’m not very familiar with since my country doesn’t really have this phenomenon.

If that’s unwelcome I guess that says a lot.

If you’re poorly-informed about a topic, trying to “debate” it with “scientific” sources and endless definitional minutiae isn’t a good way to learn more.

Because, given the conflict between your stated goal and your presentation, one of these two things must be true:
1. You’re not as naive as you claim to be, so it’s an act to deflect criticism.
2. You are as naive as you claim to be, so your arguments aren’t well-founded anyway but you’re constantly wasting time by insisting people provide detailed point-by-point rebuttals to a statement that’s basically a pile of empty broken nonsense.

Either way, this is hostile and arguing in bad faith. What’s the point?

minbariguy.7504:

None of the characters in-game are complaining about her, there is no storyline about transgender issues. NONE of what you are claiming to be bothered by is actually IN THE GAME.

Then why is the character’s choice “brave”? Why not “Oh nice” or “Hope it works for you” or “So how about Lion’s Arch?”

’Nuff said.

And now I resort to my favourite past time to purge my compulsive posting on this thread…..Top Gear.

(Sunday will be a sad day ;_;)

imsoenthused.1634:

Harper.4173:

Ok I get that but if that’s true then shouldn’t all issues of this matter be treated equally?

If I’m short but it has a very negative emotional impact on me can I then demand that the people around me treat me as if I were tall?

It is a biological trait that I dislike or do not identify with that I want others to perceive as I do rather than how they do.

Let’s imagine you truly suffer from severe dysphoria because of your height. It has led to emotional pain and trauma your entire life, up to and including thoughts of suicide. So you decide to do something about it, and with the help of doctors they agonizingly break and stretch your legs until you now stand at an acceptable average height and no longer feel awful about yourself. Sure it’s not perfect, maybe your proportions are a little off, but you are no longer drowning in emotional pain. Except for your one horrible neighbor who calls you dwarf and shorty every time he sees you, and insists that it’s not an insult or bad, because biologically that’s what you are, even if you’ve resorted to surgery to hide it.

Sounds like a really nice guy, doesn’t he.

But if I’m still short than he’s not objectively wrong. If I’m still short then I’m still short.
My feelings about a topic don’t change what exists and doesn’t in the real world.

What if it’s not short or tall – what if it’s blind and not blind. If I’m blind can I wish sight onto myself because I dislike being blind?
Also the “hide thing” is really odd as well – it depends greatly on how you define hidden. One man’s hide can be another man’s way out in the open.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Harper.4173:

imsoenthused.1634:

Harper.4173:

Also on the topic of “he” vs “she” – I understand that these individuals feel a certain way about themselves and do not necessarily identify with their biological identity. That’s fine.

But for me – who perceives them as that biological entity which they are ( regardless of their own inner perceptions) – why is it wrong to call them with the normal pronoun associated with that biological entity? My perception of them is mine. It is subjective.

Is it wrong that I choose to perceive them in my own way instead of the way they themselves want to be perceived?

These are serious questions – and it would be interesting to see how people feel about them and what their answers would be.

Because it has an emotional connotation for them that you are completely ignoring? You are choosing, by ignoring both their wishes and presentation to actively cause them emotional harm for the sake of a word. Basic human decency and politeness would dictate that you, being aware that it hurts them, wouldn’t do it. But some people just aren’t polite or decent I guess.

Ok I get that but if that’s true then shouldn’t all issues of this matter be treated equally?

If I’m short but it has a very negative emotional impact on me can I then demand that the people around me treat me as if I were tall?

It is a biological trait that I dislike or do not identify with that I want others to perceive as I do rather than how they do.

“If I’m short but it has a very negative emotional impact on me can I then demand that the people around me treat me as if I were tall? "

Yes, in the sense they don’t treat you as being inferior or lesser for being short. Not make jokes/comments about short people aiming to hurt. Not kill, threaten, hit, etc.. for being short. Not pass laws against being short that carry the death penalty or jail sentence. Not forbid you to marry another short person, because they are short. Not fire you from your job once they see you’re short. Not be thrown out by your parents on to the streets to fend for yourself at a young age, for the “sin” of being short.

All that and more, you can ask for. Just like a tall person.

So basically now I’m tall without being tall. I get treated as if I’m not short even though I’m short.