Guild Wars 2

It annoys me that I didn’t know how much I wanted to see Trans people represented in video game until I saw this thread. Bravo Anet.

Points taken. Thanks for the answers and time. I really appreciate it.

Harper.4173:

I’m informed about the scientific part of this topic – I’m not informed about how the people see it and why they feel the way they do. How they see things themselves.
It’s the difference between reading about a country and visiting and living among them I guess. I wanted to see the human side of it – hear what the people have to say instead of what the textbook teaches.

I guess that’s why I was poking and prodding.

I appreciate your honesty. But I question exactly how well informed you are about this topic scientifically. There are many “men” who are not genetically XY, and there are many women who are not genetically “XX.” There’s a reason that in the last few years trans activists have moved away from using “sex” to describe biology and replaced it with the phrase “assigned at birth.” (instead of “biologically male” the phrase is “assigned male at birth”)

I’m not sure what country you’re from, so I don’t know how medicine is practiced there, but there is a huge movement in the US to have gender dysphoria declassified as a disorder and thus remove the pathology of the trans identity.

And that is basically all I can interject at this point because I’m not a trans expert, medical professional, or geneticist.

Blackworm.2167:

dervix.9126:

Traveller.7496:

If he was a major NPC (or even if he’s not), and the plot calls for him to die, would you treat it as any other NPC dying, or would you be outraged how ANet killed a transgendered character? If you said yes to the latter question, then you are not ready for equality.

Ahem… I should note, you should be using ‘she’, not ‘he’ in this case. Sure, it’s just a character in a game whose feelings you couldn’t hurt, but going out of your way to use the wrong pronouns shows that you don’t really understand equality either.

A man may be transgender, but no amount of surgery is going to remove that Y chromosome or give him a menstrual cycle. He’s still biologically male

This is, obviously, true.

However, if someone strongly feels their brain was born into the wrong body and that they should have been born the opposite gender instead, isn’t the way they feel and their brain structure more important than their chromosomes?

Imagine, for example, you suddenly woke up tomorrow in a female body (assuming you’re a male), but with the same male brain as you have always had.

Would you want people to suddenly refer to you as female, just because your body was now female?

Or would you hope they would still think of you as a male, as your brain is male?

If it’s the latter, maybe it would be more thoughtful to try to refer to someone as the gender they say they feel they are; rather than the one they appear to be physically?

Personally, I didn’t think I even cared much about gender, until I started playing online games and people (who didn’t know me) just assumed I was male, all the time.

Then I suddenly realised it does kind of matter…

Being constantly referred to as “he”, when you are a she, is certainly not the end of the world, but it’s not ideal.

Luckily for me, the gender I know I am just happens to coincide with the gender I was born as; but not everyone is so lucky.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

chemiclord.3978:

CorrynnStarr.7942:

but if Person A’s beliefs and emotions are being forced on Person B, his/her emotions DO matter and very well SHOULD be considered. With the recent media hype over the LGBT community and how it needs special treatment being placed infront of everyone everywhere they look, can you really expect people to not be tired of it and not want to see it anymore?

Okay… let me ask… how is this being “forced” upon you?

Did someone MAKE you approach the NPC and talk to her?

Is there someone next to you right now sitting you in your chair and forcing you to open this discussion?

Does this person lock your TV to an endless loop of Caitlyn Jenner’s interview?

If not, then you’re not being forced. You are choosing to participate, at which point my original statement stands. You are objecting to a person’s existence. Your opinion and feelings therefore can be dismissed. Your right to take offense is not equal in any way, shape, or form to a person’s right to exist however they wish.

c’mon dude… you and I both know you cant walk, look, read, or hear anything anymore that isnt biased or discussing this topic… its like listening to the same justin beiber song for days on end… at some point you get tired of hearing justin beiber, no matter how well or poorly you think he sings… so yes, in some reguards, it IS forced on us by the media whether its directly or in passing or through other people engaging you to support their cause, or whatever other method you choose to say it.

the fact you are resulting to ABSOLUTES in your theory crafting is telling. Of course no one can FORCE me to watch biased NBC news or whatever, but it doesnt mean i dont hear things in passing, or on the radio, or see a magazine title etc…

and lets be clear… i dont object to their existing, im just tired of hearing about it everywhere i turn…. so your whole theory is a wash…

You think this is bad now? Gurl, just you wait til Monday morning… Caitlyn Jenner got nothin on the US Supreme Court. Notorious RBG yo.

This thread reeks of Reddit and Tumblr.

I have a hard time understanding where people get the “homophobia” and “transphobia” from because nobody is scared by gay people. What actually scares me though, is the effect these people have by enforcing their agenda.

Interesting anecdote at this point: My hairdresser happens to be homosexual and other than sometimes mentioning his husband and what they did together, he doesn’t bring it up that much. That is because he’s a respectable man who happens to be into other men instead of women.
The people pushing the agenda however, are mostly flamboyant, attention seeking narcissistic drama queens, that try to out-victim each other. That’s where terms like “cis-privilege” come from. These people are either from really broken homes or so incredibly boring, that they have to make up an entire fake persona, just to feel being part of something.

And this is mainly the reason why no sane person values your opinion.

the amout of people that don’t have any idea about what they’re talking trying to pass as soe sort of expert on the topic is saddening.
I guess what they say is true, “the problem with closed minds is that they come with open mouths.”
your hairdresser wouldn’t even be able to mention his husband if it were not for all the advances in lgbt (a.k.a human) rights.
Do you think those rights were won because of people casually mentioning their husbands? or by people actively looking to fight for a more equal society?

felessan.9587:

Harper.4173:

I’m informed about the scientific part of this topic – I’m not informed about how the people see it and why they feel the way they do. How they see things themselves.
It’s the difference between reading about a country and visiting and living among them I guess. I wanted to see the human side of it – hear what the people have to say instead of what the textbook teaches.

I guess that’s why I was poking and prodding.

I appreciate your honesty. But I question exactly how well informed you are about this topic scientifically. There are many “men” who are not genetically XY, and there are many women who are not genetically “XX.” There’s a reason that in the last few years trans activists have moved away from using “sex” to describe biology and replaced it with the phrase “assigned at birth.” (instead of “biologically male” the phrase is “assigned male at birth”)

I’m not sure what country you’re from, so I don’t know how medicine is practiced there, but there is a huge movement in the US to have gender dysphoria declassified as a disorder and thus remove the pathology of the trans identity.

And that is basically all I can interject at this point because I’m not a trans expert, medical professional, or geneticist.

I am aware that there are situations in which genotype does not match phenotype. There are situations where you have XY women for instance.
We studied how these situations occur – some things about how to diagnose the conditions but didn’t go in depth into how exactly we manage the individual patient. How we treat and consider them, etc. There aren’t really many cases around here so it isn’t a core issue. Still – it is interesting.

As far as it being labeled a pathology or not – the jury is still out on that one. Clearly there are some mechanisms that at one point or another go awry resulting in a non-standard individual.

Will this be considered pathological ( like most situations where an individual operates so fundamentally different from the statistically determined normal state) or just another variation remains to be seen.

@Soggrade

Sorry you have encountered only that side of the community. Queens are the way they are deliberately. It’s a performance thing. A few even make good money that way.

Most of us would like to be invisible or at least unnoticed. By unnoticed I mean not having people turn and leave the locker room when I enter. Not having them ask my what’s under my skirt because “I have to protect my children.”

It’d be lovely to be an ordinary second class citizen, just the way many other women are treated.

The level of discrimination produces a reaction. Hate makes hate. Drama makes drama.

Please do know that most of us aren’t tv personalities or drama queens.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The real crux of this entire argument is that some people thing lgbt are born that way and other people don’t buy that argument. I think it is a lifestyle choice. Those lifestyles offend me because of my religious beliefs. I am sure that I will be insulted in myriad ways once again.. I am a paying customer of anet and would like them to know that I wasn’t thankful for this npc.

Whatever superstitions you enjoy you can believe in freely, that is a lifestyle choice by you. Religion is a choice.

coso.9173:

the amout of people that don’t have any idea about what they’re talking trying to pass as soe sort of expert on the topic is saddening.
I guess what they say is true, “the problem with closed minds is that they come with open mouths.”
your hairdresser wouldn’t even be able to mention his husband if it were not for all the advances in lgbt (a.k.a human) rights.
Do you think those rights were won because of people casually mentioning their husbands? or by people actively looking to fight for a more equal society?

I guess you have looked at the video I’ve embedded in my post. Is that how you picture “fighting for equal rights”?

Sogradde.8016:

I have a hard time understanding where people get the “homophobia” and “transphobia” from because nobody is scared by gay people.

From one page back:

Merriam-Webster defines “homophobia” as:

" irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals"

Please note the “aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals” part. Can we please stop pretending that the word homphobia doesn’t apply simply because one isn’t “afraid” of gay people?

“Homophobia” is a compound word. That’s when you put two words together so that the combined word takes on a new meaning of it’s own. In this case, “phobia” is not meant to only mean “fear”.

So yes, if someone has an aversion to the entire group of people who identify as gay, or discriminates against the entire group of people who identify as gay, it does mean that person is homophobic, whether or not they experience fear as a component of their homophobia.

What on earth is “tumblr” mindset? In my visits to that site, I’ve found it be be insanely toxic and full of people who get offended if you cough wrong and make broad assumptions about everything. I think I broke my desk from smacking my head into it at the “all white hetero cis-scum should die and I identify as Freddy Fazbear and I’m animatronsexual so respect my orientation” stuff. It takes away and makes a mockery of LGBTQA issues as well as other things. Is that what is meant? Because that isn’t what’s going on with Sya. If Sya came out as fictivekin, you might have a case.

I don’t see how the idea that yeah, people of different orientations and stuff should be in games in roles that don’t turn them into showboating special snowflakes because that mirrors real life diversity has anything to do with Tumblr.

minbariguy.7504:

So yes, if someone has an aversion to the entire group of people who identify as gay, or discriminates against the entire group of people who identify as gay, it does mean that person is homophobic, whether or not they experience fear as a component of their homophobia.

Arachnophobia is the discrimination of spiders then?

Harper.4173:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

People, actually don’t like the kasmeer and marjory stuff? i honestly don’t care. seems was pretty kitten funny. I must say the relationship between the salad and the beetroot. is way, and way, and way better. like a 10 times better.

Anyways I also notice that a couple of people are feeling victimised, as if they feel it’s shove down thier throat. So far you have 2 lesbian couples and 1 Transgender NPC. In the entire game. U only deal with the lesbians in some Living world story and some dungeons.

As for the NPC. U don’t even need to talk to her. Why do you hear that the more controversial ideals are shoved down your face, but values such as captialism(trading post and alike), Perfectionism(Asura with thier I’m smarter then you stuff), Heck you can even twist the whole benn tenstrikes thing into A net forcing men to be heterosexual as at the end of the game, Heck then don’t forget your trusty sidekick, Lord Faren, this guy is as thirsty for women meat as you can get. just after you beat zhaitan, you hear his parents contemplating about him finding a suitable female mate.

Nothing is bieng forced down your throat. It’s nothing different then people expressing thier opinion. If they kept even more to themselves it’d be essentially arguing for people you don’t agree with to shut the kitten up until they are asked to do so considering thier very low presence in the game at this point in time. It’s just a game. You can ignore the transgender mesmer, u can ignore jory and kasmeer for the most of the game. And same for the salad and beetroot.

The problem with Jory and Kasmeer is the following :

1. It is extremely cheesy – some of the lines are so bad it made me want to quit the story then and there.

2.It is shoved down our throats – I don’t care and I’m pretty sure most players don’t care about their romance. I don’t care they’re lesbians. I care about killing dragons – this is what I came to this game for. I came here for a decent story – not for cheesy love story things.

3.People think we have a problem with them because they’re lesbians. This for me is not true ( and I’m willing to bet that the situation is similar for most players). I have a problem with them because their cheesy romance story is all up in my face in MY personal story that’s supposed to be about fighting dragons.

I couldn’t care less if they were male and female or both male. Stop pushing silly and cheesy romance stories in the middle of the living story.

I don’t want their “opinion” and I don’t care about their choices. If I had a choice I’d not even take them in the instances with me. I just want the story to focus on the fight against Mordremoth and spare me the useless “I love you Jory, I love you Kas” deadweight.

U can argue the same for lord faren and his constant hunt for female flesh, or Logan’s constant jabbering for the queen, or heterosexual sexually tinted jokes made throughout the game,: Tybalt talking about the ’’apples’’ he got from turning into the daughter of minister cadacus beetlestone. Or the the constant women in divinities gawking over logan thackery. Come on man. I haven’t heard you saying that that this is shoved down your throat.

You are overreacting to say the least. thier lovey dovey stuff makes such an small part of the game i honestly cannot fathom how you feel that is shoved down your throat. I mean. compare to the general slight hetero sexually snipbits, jokes here and there. this lesbian relationship is absolutely nothing.

I mean just compare thier dialogue to the living world story, compare it to doing puzzles, fighting dragon champions, traversing maps, time travelling, skirmishes in camp resolve againsts several mordem, mazes, infiltrations. Then add in the fact that kasmeer and marjory were even temporarily seperated cause majory’s sister died. And u still feel it’s shoved in your face?

come on man. this is nothing. go to divinities reach or queensdale right now, And I bet you, you will hear noblewomen cry out Logan thakeray’s name. It’s just one couple going all lovey dovey in mainly the living world vs lord faren, women gawking over logan thackerey, lord faren, logan fawning over queen jennah this, queen jennah, that even the story itself makes a parody over his obession. No infact u the main character even knows of this man. and the collection of heterosexual innuendo jokes made here and there. over the world that is tyria.

One cheesy lesbian duo in living world should not be considered shoving that stuff down your throat.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Moderator, I am requesting this thread be deleted… its a cesspool of hate from both sides, and has nothing to do with the game. Or at least move it to the off topic designated forum area.

I second this.

Sogradde.8016:

Arachnophobia is the discrimination of spiders then?

Sigh. Words have meanings. You can look up those meanings in a dictionary. Again, from Merriam-Webster:

“arachnophobia
: pathological fear or loathing of spiders”

Anyway, back on topic, I think Sya is a great addition to the cast of NPC’s. It’s just a small bit of diversity added to the game, and I (and many others) appreciate it.

Out of curiosity, what is the “focus” of this thread? Title is pretty much “thanks ANet for this character” and it seems opinions on Sya qualify as topical. Are opinions on the larger issue topical? Are debates that have reached a natural (natural?) no longer topical afterwards?

Sogradde.8016:

coso.9173:

the amout of people that don’t have any idea about what they’re talking trying to pass as soe sort of expert on the topic is saddening.
I guess what they say is true, “the problem with closed minds is that they come with open mouths.”
your hairdresser wouldn’t even be able to mention his husband if it were not for all the advances in lgbt (a.k.a human) rights.
Do you think those rights were won because of people casually mentioning their husbands? or by people actively looking to fight for a more equal society?

I guess you have looked at the video I’ve embedded in my post. Is that how you picture “fighting for equal rights”?

I highly doubt that’s what he or she means. That video is highly disturbing and the kind of thing that needs to be stomped out. Children should never be sexualized in that manner period.

On a different note, while I hate tumblr and do feel it’s a cesspool of hatred and bigotry in its own right, I don’t think that’s what Anet is doing here. Nothing wrong with having a trans npc. Now if Anet goes all tumblr on us and makes a catkin transdogkin plutokin ranger npc then we’ve got serious issues.

Catkin transdogkin plutokin – in the next patch

But I kid, that’s what I think of as ‘tumblr’ mentality.

Also, if you’d like another option of what to say to Sya – what did you expect your character to say? “You’re sick and you’ll always be a man. You’re just delusional!” I promise Sya’s response wouldn’t have been ‘tumblr’ generated – probably something more like “I’m sorry you feel that way but I’m finally being honest with myself and living the way I want to. Dealing with Scarlet taught me life is too precious to waste.”

LandStander.7094:

Transgender NPC standing around in Lions Arch = parading around like it is a big deal.

Ok?

the next pride parade will be just one person standing alone in a field. not even a single tote bag.

also someone pls define suppositions for that guy up there. break out yo dictionaries

Yes Aidenwolfe, my religious beliefs are my choice but then there is no npc in the game representing that…. that is fine…. I am objecting to the npc being praised as brave for this questionable lifestyle choice

Transgender is not a lifestyle choice. Please do some research on it.

What strikes me as interesting is how many possibilities for changing your gender presentation there are in the game setting — for example: Total Makeover Kits, mesmer magic, Whispers shapeshifting magic, alchemical tonics — and yet it’s kind of a surprise that Sya actually does it. That’s the thing about inclusive content: when it comes to many (real-world) marginalized groups, we’re used to erasure as the default; sometimes we don’t even entertain a super-obvious logical possibility until it’s made an explicit thing in the world somewhere.