Guild Wars 2

The Problem

The leaderboard in it’s current incarnation is worthless, a metric not of any player’s proficiency in the game, but rather, of how long they’ve been playing. What’s the point of a leaderboard where incumbency is by far the biggest predictor of placement?

The Solution

The leaderboard should be reset at set time intervals. These intervals can be monthly, attached to the start/end of each living story, made to encompass multiple living stories, etc. Regardless of how the resets are set, they must exist, so that as new players enter the game, they have an opportunity to compete. Right now, if a player was not playing at launch and doing every achievement since then, they have no chance what-so-ever of ever getting on the board.

Since the leaderboard will be resetting at set time intervals, it should include only temporary achievements (living story, daily, monthly). Since permanent achievements are limited, including them on the leaderboard would adversely affect veteran players who have fewer easy permanent achievement points to rack up (like jumping puzzles).

Daily and Monthly achievements should have far far more options than any player can complete, with a good number of fast, easy achievements, such as killing 30 ambients, as well as a number of long, difficult achievement, such as completing a level 40 Fractal run.

The AP reward for each daily should be weighted by the difficulty of attaining it. Killing 30 ambients may be worth 1 AP, while completing a level 40 Fractal Run may be worth 10 AP. By increasing the number of potential dailies and appropriately matching AP to expected completion rate and difficulty, players wishing to compete on the leaderboard will be forced to develop a strategy for maximizing their points, rather than just doing everything. Furthermore, players wishing to compete will be led to various facets of the game that they otherwise may not touch, making the leaderboard that much more representative of of a player’s overall proficiency in GW2.

Finally, with a more dynamic leaderboard, there’s greater room for rewards for placing in the top 100, 1000, etc on the leaderboard. In its current incarnation, such a reward system would be impossible, as it would just be a giant screw-you to everyone who wasn’t around at the start. A reward system would entice more players to compete, making the leaderboard that much more worthwhile, whereas currently a handful of players control it, and the only hope of anyone new getting on it is if those people stop playing.

Agree. I play another game that does this.

If leaderboards were monthly basis, it would give everyone a shot at it.

however, I don’t agree with this "The AP reward for each daily should be weighted by the difficulty of attaining it. Killing 30 ambients may be worth 1 AP, while completing a level 40 Fractal Run may be worth 10 AP. "
As thats forcing people to play an aspect of the game they may not like, or they’re not “good enough” basically.

I think the way AP is counted atm, is fine. but it should be within a time frame.

Taygus.4571:

Agree. I play another game that does this.

If leaderboards were monthly basis, it would give everyone a shot at it.

however, I don’t agree with this "The AP reward for each daily should be weighted by the difficulty of attaining it. Killing 30 ambients may be worth 1 AP, while completing a level 40 Fractal Run may be worth 10 AP. "
As thats forcing people to play an aspect of the game they may not like, or they’re not “good enough” basically.

I think the way AP is counted atm, is fine. but it should be within a time frame.

Please keep in mind that I don’t propose any changes to the acquisition of daily bonuses. Casual players who have no interest in the competing on the leader board would have plenty of quick, easy dailies to do. Remember what we want the leaderboard to represent: proficiency and mastery over GW2. Shouldn’t the players at the top of the leaderboard exemplify that?

I think you couldn’t change it now without kittening off people who have been working very hard to stay on that leaderboard. I think there needs to be a second leaderboard with all that stuff removed.

I mean, think about it, if you’ve been doing every single day, every single day for a year just to stay on that leaderboard, how would you react if suddenly all those points were removed?

It’s not fair to people who do every daily every day for all that time. It’s also true it’s not fair to new players for that to count.

The only fair solution is to make another/different leaderboard but leave that one untouched.

Vayne.8563:

I think you couldn’t change it now without kittening off people who have been working very hard to stay on that leaderboard. I think there needs to be a second leaderboard with all that stuff removed.

I mean, think about it, if you’ve been doing every single day, every single day for a year just to stay on that leaderboard, how would you react if suddenly all those points were removed?

It’s not fair to people who do every daily every day for all that time. It’s also true it’s not fair to new players for that to count.

The only fair solution is to make another/different leaderboard but leave that one untouched.

This. I’ve seen people b**** about them adding more PvP dailies. Just imagine if you took away their progress on the leaderboards. You’ll kitten more people off than it will do good.

Vayne.8563:

I think you couldn’t change it now without kittening off people who have been working very hard to stay on that leaderboard. I think there needs to be a second leaderboard with all that stuff removed.

I mean, think about it, if you’ve been doing every single day, every single day for a year just to stay on that leaderboard, how would you react if suddenly all those points were removed?

It’s not fair to people who do every daily every day for all that time. It’s also true it’s not fair to new players for that to count.

The only fair solution is to make another/different leaderboard but leave that one untouched.

Eh, in implementation I’d imagine it would be treated as the same way seasons are treated. Season 1 lasted a year, congratulations guys, here’s your prize. Heck, even memorialize them in some sort of hall of fame. Now let’s start season 2. Of course, the total tally would still be on their account, they’d still have all of the skins and other rewards from all the achievement chests they unlocked, etc. It’s not like they’d be walking away from it all empty handed.

That said, I do see your point. There are indeed expectations there, and some people would indeed be upset. Most people, and the game itself, however, I believe would benefit from a revamped system, and having the revamped system along side of instead of in place the current system might slow and hinder its acceptance.

Xista.7391:

Vayne.8563:

I think you couldn’t change it now without kittening off people who have been working very hard to stay on that leaderboard. I think there needs to be a second leaderboard with all that stuff removed.

I mean, think about it, if you’ve been doing every single day, every single day for a year just to stay on that leaderboard, how would you react if suddenly all those points were removed?

It’s not fair to people who do every daily every day for all that time. It’s also true it’s not fair to new players for that to count.

The only fair solution is to make another/different leaderboard but leave that one untouched.

This. I’ve seen people b**** about them adding more PvP dailies. Just imagine if you took away their progress on the leaderboards. You’ll kitten more people off than it will do good.

This is wholly untrue. The number of people actively competing for a spot on the leaderboard right now is very very small relative to the total population, and it can’t ever grow because it’s impossible for new players and older players that didn’t start right away to even get close to those who did. The system I propose has benefits for everyone, even those actively competing in the current system.

Besides, the leaderboard right now is much less an actual leaderboard and much more a player roster arranged by join date anyway.

You do realize that your suggested changes will make them exactly like how the fractal leader-boards would be if they were made publicly available?

The challenge missions in GW had categories for day, week, month, and all time. Maybe something like that could work?

Ayrilana.1396:

You do realize that your suggested changes will make them exactly like how the fractal leader-boards would be if they were made publicly available?

I didn’t even know such a thing existed, but if it does, and this is how it’s implemented, hooray for proper implementations!

IndigoSundown.5419:

The challenge missions in GW had categories for day, week, month, and all time. Maybe something like that could work?

I didn’t play GW1 so I don’t really know how those worked. Please explain.

Yes make leaderboards monthly and also RESET them after every month so people start at zero.

Why not rethink how AP points are categorized. There’s HoM (Hall of Monuments), there’s LS(Living Story), theres Daily/Monthly, and there’s Core (Always there achievements).

I’d like to see a breakdown of these achievement point types and have sub-categories of the AP leaderboard.

Seems more fair imo

Shockwave.1230:

Why not rethink how AP points are categorized. There’s HoM (Hall of Monuments), there’s LS(Living Story), theres Daily/Monthly, and there’s Core (Always there achievements).

I’d like to see a breakdown of these achievement point types and have sub-categories of the AP leaderboard.

Seems more fair imo

“Fair?” What is the point of having a leaderboard for some of that stuff? I mean, kills with a dagger? Skelk killed? And basically any HoM achievement? There’s nothing noteworthy about any of these, other than that the player has been playing for a long time. They are completely uncompetitive, and competition is the exact sort of thing leaderboards are supposed to measure.

Subdue.5479:

Ayrilana.1396:

You do realize that your suggested changes will make them exactly like how the fractal leader-boards would be if they were made publicly available?

I didn’t even know such a thing existed, but if it does, and this is how it’s implemented, hooray for proper implementations!

IndigoSundown.5419:

The challenge missions in GW had categories for day, week, month, and all time. Maybe something like that could work?

I didn’t play GW1 so I don’t really know how those worked. Please explain.

What Indigo is talking about is the challenge missions that appeared in Factions. There were several different missions and each had it’s own leaderboard.

You could go to an NPC in game and he’d show you the actual leaderboard. There were lifetime scores there in one column, but then a different column for monthly high scores and daily high scores. So each day the daily reset, but the monthly didn’t reset till the end of the month and the all time high scores never reset, they could only be beat.

It wouldn’t be much different having a monthly leaderboard and leaving the old leaderboard in place like I suggested.

The one thing I don’t think Anet can afford to do is reset a leaderboard that people have killed themselves to keep up with.

Do you remember the kittenstorm that happened when Anet reset people’s Fractal levels to 30? Just imagine what the forums would be like.

Vayne.8563:

Subdue.5479:

Ayrilana.1396:

You do realize that your suggested changes will make them exactly like how the fractal leader-boards would be if they were made publicly available?

I didn’t even know such a thing existed, but if it does, and this is how it’s implemented, hooray for proper implementations!

IndigoSundown.5419:

The challenge missions in GW had categories for day, week, month, and all time. Maybe something like that could work?

I didn’t play GW1 so I don’t really know how those worked. Please explain.

What Indigo is talking about is the challenge missions that appeared in Factions. There were several different missions and each had it’s own leaderboard.

You could go to an NPC in game and he’d show you the actual leaderboard. There were lifetime scores there in one column, but then a different column for monthly high scores and daily high scores. So each day the daily reset, but the monthly didn’t reset till the end of the month and the all time high scores never reset, they could only be beat.

It wouldn’t be much different having a monthly leaderboard and leaving the old leaderboard in place like I suggested.

The one thing I don’t think Anet can afford to do is reset a leaderboard that people have killed themselves to keep up with.

Do you remember the kittenstorm that happened when Anet reset people’s Fractal levels to 30? Just imagine what the forums would be like.

The thing is it won’t even be on the same scale as the rest of the leaderboard. It’ll just be a near meaningless, obsolete value. Rather than keeping it as an active part of the board, A.Net would be better off recognizing their accomplishments via some sort of reward, even if just giving them some unique title, recognizing their names somewhere, etc, and then removing that leaderboard.

From my perspective, I agree there will be a fair bit of kitten storm, but just like the fractals thing it’ll blow over, and we’ll be left with a system that’s better for many more people.

Instead of an indication of how much you’ve been playing since the game launch, it will be an indication of how much you’ve been playing since the monthly reset. How is it different?

And with only dailies/monthlies/LS to count too many people will have those maxed out pretty quick. No, even being a fairly new player, I’d prefer the global achievement list just to look at the veterans.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Instead of an indication of how much you’ve been playing since the game launch, it will be an indication of how much you’ve been playing since the monthly reset. How is it different?

And with only dailies/monthlies/LS to count too many people will have those maxed out pretty quick. No, even being a fairly new player, I’d prefer the global achievement list just to look at the veterans.

Like I said, the idea would be to increase the number of potential achievements to the point where it would be impossible to do them all. That was pretty key in the suggestion. Furthermore, I called for more difficult dailies mixed in with the easy ones, so that those at the very top of the boards will have demonstrated not just how much they play, but how well they play in many facets of the game.

Most of top achievers got most of their points from abusing many things, mostly activities on reset and getting easy hundreds of points that make a lot of difference. There are also many different exploits to do weapon mastery which many of them did.
Even if you fix and adjust dailies, you can never make it fair, some people will always get the achievs that normally take many many hours in 20x less time, which many did already.

I don’t think that the proposed changes would be significantly, “more representative of of a player’s overall proficiency in GW2.”

I do think that the OP’s suggestion would make the AP leader board more interesting and an active piece of content for the game by increasing competition for a position on the board.

Ashen.2907:

I don’t think that the proposed changes would be significantly, “more representative of of a player’s overall proficiency in GW2.”

I do think that the OP’s suggestion would make the AP leader board more interesting and an active piece of content for the game by increasing competition for a position on the board.

That claim was derived from the suggestions to include an impossible to complete array of daily achievements combined with a mixture of difficulties, all weighted by the difficulties. The more difficult content would take said players deep into difficult dungeons, fractals, through difficult jumping puzzles. It could have guilds really striving to unlock and complete guild missions (which as a side note I think really need a revamp, as the requirements for unlocking that content are wholly unfair to smaller guilds), and so on.

Besides, right now the majority of the dailies can be completed without ever leaving Queensdale. Anything added that moves people around the map would be “more representative of proficiency in GW2.”

Horrible suggestion, even worse than the current one. We need more skill involved and not more time consumption per day.

Seems simple enough… create a second “monthly” leader board and leave the current one alone. People can brag about whichever one they are doing better on and the rest of us can continue not caring.

Malediktus.9250:

Horrible suggestion, even worse than the current one. We need more skill involved and not more time consumption per day.

And “More skill involved” means what? Certainly not the 1000 Ooze kills that has you sitting at the top of the leaderboard.

Subdue.5479:

Malediktus.9250:

Horrible suggestion, even worse than the current one. We need more skill involved and not more time consumption per day.

And “More skill involved” means what? Certainly not the 1000 Ooze kills that has you sitting at the top of the leaderboard.

What is allowing people to “sit a the top of the leaderboards” is a bazillion APs from dailies. Killing 1000 ooze awards way less APs than a full daily

Killing 1000 oozes happens naturally as you play, for example ascalon catacombs. I think I had that one month after release already without specifically hunting them.

Malediktus.9250:

Killing 1000 oozes happens naturally as you play, for example ascalon catacombs. I think I had that one month after release already without specifically hunting them.

I killed over 600 Jotun yesterday waiting on the Marionette. I found that rather humorous to be honest.

Good use of the time Id say. Better than just standing around doing nothing.

Malediktus.9250:

Killing 1000 oozes happens naturally as you play, for example ascalon catacombs. I think I had that one month after release already without specifically hunting them.

So not skill based then, which is what I was implying…

Yamiga.7863:

Subdue.5479:

Malediktus.9250:

Horrible suggestion, even worse than the current one. We need more skill involved and not more time consumption per day.

And “More skill involved” means what? Certainly not the 1000 Ooze kills that has you sitting at the top of the leaderboard.

What is allowing people to “sit a the top of the leaderboards” is a bazillion APs from dailies. Killing 1000 ooze awards way less APs than a full daily

Actually what allows them to sit at the top of the leaderboard, if we’re really being logical, is that the leaderboard never resets. Incumbency is the biggest factor in any player’s position in the leaderboard. Anyone who wasn’t around at the start has no chance of catching up unless the people before him leave. That’s an inherently HUGE flaw in the current system, which doesn’t exist in the one I’ve proposed.

They should just announce they are freezing the AP leader board in a month. At the end of the month give the person in first a mini and and XP booster with a note saying, “You win,” then freeze it and be done with it.

It never resets because it doesnt make sense to reset, since achievement points are something permanent which dont degrade over time. Your suggestion makes all permanent achievements meaningless.

The leaderboard as it stands exists for 25 people. The 25 on the first page. That’s it.
Its a pointless board anyway, as it only shows how much you can grind dailies and living story achievements. It serves as a deterrent for anyone who’s stared playing the in last few months from even bothering to try as the majority of those points can’t even be had anymore.
If the people working to be on the top of the board are so competitive and good at getting these points, then stripping this board in favor of a monthly one shouldn’t really affect them – if they’re that good they’d top a new monthly one as well, yes?
I don’t think the whole system should keep everyone else down with absolutely zero chance of ever coming close for the sake of upsetting the 25 people who currently rank top.
A board like we have now stagnates the site, the game and player interest. Who cares to even look at that stagnant board with the same names on it for months?
A monthly resetting board could get some people into it to rank each month, when they know they have a chance.

Malediktus.9250:

It never resets because it doesnt make sense to reset, since achievement points are something permanent which dont degrade over time. Your suggestion makes all permanent achievements meaningless.

It’s fine for achievement points as they relate to rewards to be permanent, which they will be under the system I propose. What isn’t fine is for a leaderboard to be uncompetitive.

Dictionary

lead·er board
noun
noun: leaderboard
1.
a scoreboard showing the names and current scores of the leading competitors, esp. in a golf tournament.

By definition, a leaderboard only makes sense in the presence of competition, and right now, there is none.

Even if you reset the leaderboards in intervals it would still only put whoever plays the most on top.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

Even if you reset the leaderboards in intervals it would still only put whoever plays the most on top.

Actually, the system I propose would work on that in a number of ways. First, by including varying degrees of difficulty within the achievements, level of skill becomes a factor. Two players who spend the same amount of time playing for points won’t necessarily complete the same number of achievements, if one is more skilled than the other. Second, by scaling points to the difficulty of the achievement, the gap between the skilled and the unskilled widens, and makes those more difficult achievements worthwhile. Finally, by including far more potential achievements than anyone can possibly do in the given time period, the game changes from “reach X points” to “outplay your competitors and/or exhibit greater endurance.”

Will someone who plays 4 hours a day have an advantage on the leaderboard over someone who plays for 1 hour a day? Sure. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that. It’s not the same as someone having played at the start being permanently ahead of someone who started 4 months ago.

I gave up on Leaderboards when they added 500 AP for HOM……

The PvE Leaderboard is dysfunctional. It’s not because people don’t have opportunities to compete, but because it’s AP based and achievements are hardly worth competing over. You’re just recording grind, smaller increments of grind aren’t anymore meaningful.

I’d recommend trying to qualify skill more directly, but….

Well, Real Talk, here, guys.
PvE alternates between a cheesy cheatfest or a brainless zergfest. How can you have a meaningful PvE Leaderboard when there’s nothing in PvE worth admiring, much less recording?

Vox Hollow.2736:

The PvE Leaderboard is dysfunctional. It’s not because of lack investment because they don’t have opportunities to compete, but because it’s AP based. You’re just recording grind, smaller increments of grind aren’t anymore meaningful.

I’d recommend trying to qualify skill more directly, but….

Well, Real Talk, here, guys.
PvE alternates between a cheesy cheatfest or a brainless zergfest. How can you have a meaningful PvE Leaderboard when there’s nothing in PvE worth admiring, much less recording?

Whether or not you want to compete on an AP Leaderboard is up to you, but you should be able to make that choice. It shouldn’t be decided for you based on when you first started playing.

Also, I agree. There should be a bigger skill component involved.

Flash.6912:

I gave up on Leaderboards when they added 500 AP for HOM……

Yea… having to get a whole different game to attain those points is kind of… odd.

AP Leaderboard should not even be there in the first place.

It only introduce a lot of grieves.

azizul.8469:

AP Leaderboard should not even be there in the first place.

It only introduce a lot of grieves.

The leaderboard suggests competition, and competition in a game is a good thing. It gives people something to do, something to strive for. The problem is that in its current incarnation, the leaderboard is uncompetitive.

I’d like to keep this out there as it would be a big step in helping people care about the leaderboard.

I doubt anyone will care about a leaderboard exclusively made for who plays most hours per day. To me it looks like you are upset that you cant be competing in the current leaderboard soon, so you want to make a new one fitting your own needs.

Malediktus.9250:

I doubt anyone will care about a leaderboard exclusively made for who plays most hours per day. To me it looks like you are upset that you cant be competing in the current leaderboard soon, so you want to make a new one fitting your own needs.

It’s pretty obvious that you’re the one who’s out for personal gain. Examples:

Malediktus.9250:

I dont want to limit anyone choices, just a hard cap on daily/monthly achievement points (10k/2.5k would be just great. Casual players will likely never reach it in the next coming years, possible not even by the end of GW2s lifetime, only a select few hardcore achievement point farmers like me will reach it anytime soon.

I know I dont have to do all dailies, but then 1) Would loose my leaderboard position 2) All effort on achievements so far was wasted, because the achievement reward chests are a joke.
Not to mention the whole game is optional, so pointing it I dont have to do all dailies is just silly.

Malediktus.9250:

Your system would reward people who spend most hours per day instead of veterancy or skillful play. I dont see any improvement. Yes, you can optimize your time to get more dailies done per day, must most achievement hunters already perfected it.

Malediktus.9250:

Subdue.5479:

If Player A is ranked 100 on the leaderboard and is willing to spend 18 hours a day doing dailies and other achievements to move up, should he not be allowed to because Player B can’t handle the mental pressure of not doing all the dailies, but also is unwilling to devote the same amount of time and effort?

He shouldnt be allowed too.

It’s pretty obvious what your motives are. The changes you want to happen give you a direct advantage on the leaderboard, where as the suggestions I make simply give everyone a fair shot.

Great idea by OP, however it will be unfair for those who have shown dedication to this game since the launch of the AP system. Therefore they should leave the existing leaderboard as is…

However, they should add an alternate achievement system which will be based on achievement points acquired on a monthly basis. Once the timer ends and the monthly resets, It can then display the individuals who were able to acquire the highest possible APs in the fastest time possible. The top 10 players can then be awarded a “no life” title or maybe an achievement chest which could change monthly containing some unique skins/minis etc.

This will create some healthy competition and allow the newer players to climb a leaderboard which isnt based on events/dailies prior to them even starting the game.

Subdue.5479:

It’s pretty obvious what your motives are. The changes you want to happen give you a direct advantage on the leaderboard, where as the suggestions I make simply give everyone a fair shot.

I disagree.

Malediktus.9250:

Subdue.5479:

It’s pretty obvious what your motives are. The changes you want to happen give you a direct advantage on the leaderboard, where as the suggestions I make simply give everyone a fair shot.

I disagree.

..You disagree with the things that you said? That makes two of us lol.

I’ve said it before way back when that a leaderboard tracking AP makes no sense what so ever to me when all PVE portions of AP take practically no skill what so ever. How can that be competition? What type of person are you if you consider that it means or is supposed to mean competition?

PvP leaderboards totally make sense to me because players are actually playing against one another having a direct impact on each others teamwork, tracking how successful you and your teammates are. The leaderboard here doesn’t even tell the whole story or stat track everything in a bout like say a game like Battlefield 2/3/4 does.
Like Guardian for instance:
PvP kills with greatsword/shield/torch.
or even all players:
Captures taken. Orbs scored. Trebs demolished. Guild Lords killed. Monsters killed.

Only way I see having the AP leaderboard sponsor some competition beyond the pvp/wvw ap acquired is by adding a specific category that tracks a new type of dungeon similar to the Challenge Missions in GW1. Maybe solo dungeons. Either that or a new category that adds challenge to the current dungeon system. Tracking time for full clears or something.

I’m sitting at like 15.2k ap. I personally could care less about who is above or below that because ap doesn’t really say if you are good or not, just says you attempted and finished a particular part of the game at least once. I for one have done 99% of the jump puzzles only once each. I hate them and am terrible at them. Does me having all the AP from them make me good at doing them? A resounding no screams in my mind.

I wouldn’t mind some in depth stat tracking though. I would browse through a list or two to find out who has done Arah p4 the most. COE story the most. Who has killed the most ambient creatures and with what weapon. Who has dived from a certain goggle spot the most. Who has killed the most of “insert mob type”. Not for competition, just to see player tendencies.

Skilled content needs some pretty defined parameters that actually sponsor competition if I want to consider it a competition. AP leaderboard and the majority of the task to obtain ap , to me, does not.