Guild Wars 2

I think the trinity is better for the most part. Yeah you get the horrible players that blame things on the tank or healer but you just kick them and get someone else. In a guild raid you dont have those things for the most part unless you in a horrible guild that just wants players in it. Whenever I play as a tank or healer in other games I usually get thanked. In this i’ve been undergeared and done some pretty good things like keeping the champ abom in one spot for the most damage output out of the melee but you dont get anything like a “nice job at keeping it still”. The only thing you get thanks for is rezzing people.

I just guess i dont see the point of an endgame that is just zerg champs all day.

Lol, he’s actually arguing with himself!

I’m not at all. Even if he did have the imaginary job to go to, he’d wait for my response before leaving.

Sigh. COF does not describe playing the game at a high level. Perhaps this describes your problem with my statements. guardian/warrior/mesmer was not because we couldn’t except anything else, it was simply because it worked. Humans, well, most humans, noticed this. Nothing has changed that would make this different and so it remains true. Thank you for, essentially, for admitting this.

Did you ignore the bit where I mentioned the Lupicus kill, you know, in Arah?

There’s actually a COE p1/2 run I saw on youtube today with 2 war, 2 ele, 1 thief, and the boss kills were much faster than you could pull off with 3 war 1 guard 1 mes. Subject Alpha in his second fight just melted shorter than the duration of a time warp thanks to fiery greatsword rush and they stacked might better than the “trinity” group would be able to.

I think Brazil from DnT even said taking a mesmer in high level fractals isn’t worth doing either.

Warrior/guardian/mesmer is the safest team setup since you have a bunch of players with fat HP pools unlike glass thieves and elementalists, but it’s not the best at all.

Thrumdi.9216:

Your post is 6 months too late.

As the responses to the OP indicate, healer and tank players have already left the game. Only the DPS are left.

And what do you get when you only have DPS left? Zerg city.

(Except for WvW, where if you have a 15+ person guild group you can have a Trinity of Tank Hammer Warriors, Healing Water/Blast Guards and Eles, and Necro DPS’ers — only available to the elite though).

That is completely false. They still haven’t left the game nor has the mentality left the game yet. I still see Guardians, Warriors, and Eles trying to heal or tank.

colesy.8490:

Lol, he’s actually arguing with himself!

I’m not at all. Even if he did have the imaginary job to go to, he’d wait for my response before leaving.

Sigh. COF does not describe playing the game at a high level. Perhaps this describes your problem with my statements. guardian/warrior/mesmer was not because we couldn’t except anything else, it was simply because it worked. Humans, well, most humans, noticed this. Nothing has changed that would make this different and so it remains true. Thank you for, essentially, for admitting this.

Did you ignore the bit where I mentioned the Lupicus kill, you know, in Arah?

There’s actually a COE p1/2 run I saw on youtube today with 2 war, 2 ele, 1 thief, and the boss kills were much faster than you could pull off with 3 war 1 guard 1 mes. Subject Alpha in his second fight just melted shorter than the duration of a time warp thanks to fiery greatsword rush and they stacked might better than the “trinity” group would be able to.

I think Brazil from DnT even said taking a mesmer in high level fractals isn’t worth doing either.

Warrior/guardian/mesmer is the safest team setup since you have a bunch of players with fat HP pools unlike glass thieves and elementalists, but it’s not the best at all.

What I do understand is that you don’t understand what the game is when played at a high level.

[/quote]

What I do understand is that you don’t understand what the game is when played at a high level.

[/quote]

I dont, all i see people do is farm champs all the time.

And yet you haven’t even clarified what you mean by high level. Here was me thinking it was clearing the most challenging content of the game fast and efficiently, so Arah and Fractals 48 through to 79.

colesy.8490:

And yet you haven’t even clarified what you mean by high level. Here was me thinking it was clearing the most challenging content of the game fast and efficiently, so Arah and Fractals 48 through to 79.

What I mean by high level is something other that what you have played. This is by definition by what you have demonstrated in this thread. You don’t even understand the current dungeon meta.

No role = no purpose? If antything you only have more purpose here because you are allowed to do more than just one thing. The holy trinity is just a brainless purpose. Heal only, tank only, dps only. So bad… so bad, and a little sad.

Timelord.8190:

No role = no purpose? If antything you only have more purpose hear because you are allowed to do more than just one thing. The holy trinity is just a brainless purpose. To play a game where everything i do is to heal people.

That sounds like no fun at all.

Well, I would equate the traditional trinity to ‘purpose’, but not to brainless purpose or no purpose. The traditional Trinity did fulfill the purpose of giving ‘meaning’ to combat roles. And, that sounds like fun to me.

Kind of miss it. I liked the dependence on a tank or healer. You were ALWAYS wanted. DPS could be anything.

Wow, so less suff to do = more meaning?

Raine.1394:

colesy.8490:

And yet you haven’t even clarified what you mean by high level. Here was me thinking it was clearing the most challenging content of the game fast and efficiently, so Arah and Fractals 48 through to 79.

What I mean by high level is something other that what you have played. This is by definition by what you have demonstrated in this thread. You don’t even understand the current dungeon meta.

What?

I don’t understand the meta? You just claimed anchor guards are meta.

Timelord.8190:

Wow, so less suff to do = more meaning?

It’s not about less ‘suff’ (sic) to do. It’s rather about meaningful combat roles. That is the underlying issue. Meaningful roles equals more meaning.

colesy.8490:

Raine.1394:

colesy.8490:

And yet you haven’t even clarified what you mean by high level. Here was me thinking it was clearing the most challenging content of the game fast and efficiently, so Arah and Fractals 48 through to 79.

What I mean by high level is something other that what you have played. This is by definition by what you have demonstrated in this thread. You don’t even understand the current dungeon meta.

What?

I don’t understand the meta? You just claimed anchor guards are meta.

yep, you don’t understand the meta. If you claim the meta changed from anchor guards , please explain what, exactly, changed in order to change it. Thank you.

Edit: I do realize this would require actual thought, but I do recommend it as an exercize.

No one misses LF Healer/Tank/Etc. for 2 hours…not even those who like the trinity.

Vorch.2985:

No one misses LF Healer/Tank/Etc. for 2 hours…not even those who like the trinity.

What does ‘2’ hours denote. If it is queue time, i’ve never spent 2 hours in a queue.

Raine.1394:

Vorch.2985:

No one misses LF Healer/Tank/Etc. for 2 hours…not even those who like the trinity.

What does ‘2’ hours denote. If it is queue time, i’ve never spent 2 hours in a queue.

Ask about Domain of Anguish in GW1.

Vorch.2985:

Raine.1394:

Vorch.2985:

No one misses LF Healer/Tank/Etc. for 2 hours…not even those who like the trinity.

What does ‘2’ hours denote. If it is queue time, i’ve never spent 2 hours in a queue.

Ask about Domain of Anguish in GW1.

Ok, I’m asking…

Raine.1394:

Vorch.2985:

Raine.1394:

Vorch.2985:

No one misses LF Healer/Tank/Etc. for 2 hours…not even those who like the trinity.

What does ‘2’ hours denote. If it is queue time, i’ve never spent 2 hours in a queue.

Ask about Domain of Anguish in GW1.

Ok, I’m asking…

It was an elite area in GW1 that required VERY experienced shadow form assassin (GW1 thieves) tanks for a 3-4 hour run.

Often, groups would have to wait and 1-2 hours to fill up, even with guilds. Most people just resorted to armbrace farming (a very valuable material in GW1).

Heh I’m glad the trinity is gone. I am and was fed up with the trinity and other games. Begging for any of the 3 sometimes waiting an age or worse yet never getting. Or worse being 1 of the 3 and LFG or being passed over because a specific group needed more DPS or Tank or Healer.
I say good job ANET and good riddance. I’m (probably) one of the few GW1 beta thru today players who celebrated when Nightfall released and we had heroes. No more begging and endless waiting. It was and is GAME ON without the wait.

Vorch.2985:

Raine.1394:

Vorch.2985:

Raine.1394:

Vorch.2985:

No one misses LF Healer/Tank/Etc. for 2 hours…not even those who like the trinity.

What does ‘2’ hours denote. If it is queue time, i’ve never spent 2 hours in a queue.

Ask about Domain of Anguish in GW1.

Ok, I’m asking…

It was an elite area in GW1 that required VERY experienced shadow form assassin (GW1 thieves) tanks for a 3-4 hour run.

Often, groups would have to wait and 1-2 hours to fill up, even with guilds. Most people just resorted to armbrace farming (a very valuable material in GW1).

=

Cool, not what I would create by design. No point in limiting the availability of content based on any parameter. I am, by the way, currently leveling an Assassin, but that would be in another game altogether.

I miss gameplay mattering. I think the design of dungeon content doesn’t offer anything better than the trinity. For many encounters I am literally alt-tabbing out of the game to read something or do something else while I auto-attack a boss to death. That’s how tedious the no-trinity combat of GW2 has become in many cases.

Even the easiest dungeons with the trinity system required you to be there and do something. In GW2 it’s usually enough to auto-attack to beat most bosses.

Shiren.9532:

I miss gameplay mattering. I think the design of dungeon content doesn’t offer anything better than the trinity. For many encounters I am literally alt-tabbing out of the game to read something or do something else while I auto-attack a boss to death. That’s how tedious the no-trinity combat of GW2 has become in many cases.

Pretty much this. I really couldn’t say it better than this.

Shiren.9532:

I miss gameplay mattering. I think the design of dungeon content doesn’t offer anything better than the trinity. For many encounters I am literally alt-tabbing out of the game to read something or do something else while I auto-attack a boss to death. That’s how tedious the no-trinity combat of GW2 has become in many cases.

Even the easiest dungeons with the trinity system required you to be there and do something. In GW2 it’s usually enough to auto-attack to beat most bosses.

I have to concede, this is a kitten ed good point

One thing about WoW, you know there is actually some skill/timing needed if the modding community produce a Boss Mod (kitten I loved that Mod so much)

I miss the trinty !!!!!!!!!! i miss it so much

What I never understood about the so-called holy trilogy was why the super-powerful and/or super-intelligent foes never just attacked the healers and other key players first regardless of threat. They should know better.

Henri Blanche.8276:

What I never understood about the so-called holy trilogy was why the super-powerful and/or super-intelligent foes never just attacked the healers and other key players first regardless of threat. They should know better.

So, it’s trinity not trilogy, but there are even add-ons that mark healers in other games. They do know better.

@ raine
the trinety is refred to as 3 funtion as 1 that is true.
but in gw2 you dont have 3 funtion as 1 in any way,jut because there are 3 diffrent things you can do CC, support or deal damage atleast in a simplyfied area but as 2 of the is not needed to do something the its not 3 working as 1 in any way, but if thats true then there is no trinity in gw2 right now.
in wow the trinity is tank/healer/dps but there is content you cant do without all 3(when your at the level for it)
in gw2 almost all can be soloed and if solo is impossible duo is(with the exeption of high level fractals and arah p4 i would gess) and if duo is possible there is no trinity in any way as 1 person cant function as 2 parts of a trinity.

in the differnition i just gave of a trinity(3 funtion as 1) i would have nothing agienst it and would like it if there is nothing that make tank/healer/dps trinity be they way for things to be possible.

LOL, typing faster than I was thinking.

Shiren.9532:

I miss gameplay mattering. I think the design of dungeon content doesn’t offer anything better than the trinity. For many encounters I am literally alt-tabbing out of the game to read something or do something else while I auto-attack a boss to death. That’s how tedious the no-trinity combat of GW2 has become in many cases.

Even the easiest dungeons with the trinity system required you to be there and do something. In GW2 it’s usually enough to auto-attack to beat most bosses.

I have four main disagreements with this.

1) It isn’t true for all content. This will get you killed in fractals very quickly. I know fractals aren’t uber-hardcore difficulty, but they’re something.

2) The content this is true for is open-world stuff. Open-world stuff will never be as difficult as instanced material, simply because instanced material is “cut off” from the world and thus players don’t expect it to be as accessible as the open world. People expect the open world to be easier than dungeons.

3) The recent content has been making moves towards meaningful gameplay. Take, for example, the Queen’s Gauntlet. It’s kitten hard. Say what you will about unfairness or unfunness, it’s hard. The coming update will feature revamps to world bosses to make them actually require attention and whatnot. Teq in particular looks awesome: it seems to require multiple dedicated taskgroups, each with different uses and targets. One attacks the enemy, one attacks the adds attacking turrets, one uses the turrets. It may be even more segmented than that.

4) They have explicitly stated that they are planning on releasing three new fractals (read: semi-hardcore) and their own brand of raids (read: full-hardcore) within the foreseeable future.

That said, I really do understand where you’re coming from. Just look at what they’ve been doing recently, and it helps in staying optimistic about the future.

Korsbaek.9803:

@ raine
the trinety is refred to as 3 funtion as 1 that is true.
but in gw2 you dont have 3 funtion as 1 in any way,jut because there are 3 diffrent things you can do CC, support or deal damage atleast in a simplyfied area but as 2 of the is not needed to do something the its not 3 working as 1 in any way, but if thats true then there is no trinity in gw2 right now.
in wow the trinity is tank/healer/dps but there is content you cant do without all 3(when your at the level for it)
in gw2 almost all can be soloed and if solo is impossible duo is(with the exeption of high level fractals and arah p4 i would gess) and if duo is possible there is no trinity in any way as 1 person cant function as 2 parts of a trinity.

in the differnition i just gave of a trinity(3 funtion as 1) i would have nothing agienst it and would like it if there is nothing that make tank/healer/dps trinity be they way for things to be possible.

Beyond the issues with basic spelling, there is not a lot here that I can engage with, and so, I won’t.

The problem with dungeons is not that trinity is useless.

The problem with dungeons is that Control and support are useless. The problem is that the group can be completely 100% DPS role without much trouble. The problem is that dungeons can be done with only dodging. You don’t need defensive skills, which have high cooldowns. It’ll be a waste, and you’re better off using a more damage support utility.

If I can throw a cripple/daze/knockback around and it will actually make a positive difference, then the game will be 10 times better.

I miss the Trinity. It made GW1 more fun. This game makes every class feel the same. Boring. OP suggested a system that allowed you to create a character that could switch roles. That’s exactly what FFXIV is doing now, and the approach GW2 should’ve taken. GW1 was approaching that idea by allowing you to switch secondaries but fell short somewhat.

colesy.8490:

The thief is a class sought out at high levels of the game? Really? You would appear out of your depth here, by definition.

Some of it, yes. They can be used to stealth past blossoms in TA, past mobs in Arah, smoke screen is projectile absorption if your group is lacking in it (say the thief joins a pug). Failing that, if you have might and vuln stacking covered, a thief can be taken for raw DPS.

You still haven’t answered how warrior hundred blades beats elementalist fiery rush.

An interesting fact is that people suggest that something changed in the meta, in one case 6-7 months ago, where the meta went from anchor/dps/support to full dps. I give them credit for understanding the then current meta, but what, exactly, changed that moved the game to full DPS? This should be interesting.

To put it simply, people realised anchors weren’t needed and the anchor guard could just go full DPS at no loss to the group’s overall efficiency.

Arguably, at a gain.

Holy Trinity < Skills ‘a la carte’ (from all skills)

runeblade.7514:

The problem with dungeons is not that trinity is useless.

The problem with dungeons is that Control and support are useless. The problem is that the group can be completely 100% DPS role without much trouble. The problem is that dungeons can be done with only dodging. You don’t need defensive skills, which have high cooldowns. It’ll be a waste, and you’re better off using a more damage support utility.

If I can throw a cripple/daze/knockback around and it will actually make a positive difference, then the game will be 10 times better.

Yep. It’s all in the encounter design. There are already examples of fantastic fights in the game that capitalize on what the game does well (the one that most immediately comes to mind being the two fellas in Molten Facility), but unfortunately, that’s a very short list. If dungeon revamps are a priority, hopefully we’ll see more like that.

It’s kind of a thing with encounter design in trinity-based MMOs. This is PUG content… How much effort do you put into Heroics in WoW by comparison? Other players are just as irrelevant there as they are here. While I was still raiding, on the other hand, I could definitely see fights not caring at all about the trinity- their mechanics would still operate just fine without a tank, and personal survival is still exactly the same, healer or no.

Let Raine think that coming to NASA forums and using the word “potato” to describe neutron stars is going to work. He doesn’t understand the culture of gaming, and nothing you say is going to help.

I miss the trinity like I miss that ex girlfriend I think of every so often. Sure I’d like to be with her again for all nostalgia reasons but few seconds later I realize why we broke up and how we wouldn’t last for more than a day together.

Same for the trinity. People might feel it’s a good system, but by thinking it through one realizes immediately why it’s that bad and why we got rid of it.

Lokki.1092:

Aisa.2817:

So basically, we have to keep ourselves alive and work as a team to get through dungeons. What’s wrong with that?

Work as a team? Are we playing the same (PvE) game. My teams seem to work like this.

1. Get in group
2. No need to speak to anyone unless someone doesn’t know what to do
3. Wait for cut scenes.
4. Skip what needs to be skipped
5. Kill what needs to be killed.
6. Type in /s “P2 P3?” or “Ty”

Repeat.

There is no teamwork. Those player may as well be DPS bots or NPCs. Nothing I can do will save them nothing they can do will save me. And we are all better off DPSing our faces off and just avoiding damage in the first place.

So its the same as any other MMO where people repeat same content ad nauseum, just WITHOUT hour(s) of waiting around for “proper must have” group setup (tank+heal+DPS)

No it isn’t.

/15chars.

AntiGw.9367:

Let Raine think that coming to NASA forums and using the word “potato” to describe neutron stars is going to work. He doesn’t understand the culture of gaming, and nothing you say is going to help.

I’ll just note the ad hominem here. There is no engagement, whatsoever, with anything I’ve said. And, again, ad hominems are usually resorted to when you are out of your depth in an argument. NASA forums? Right.

Trinity is like playing soccer. One player plays by different rules (can use hand) and therefor the entire team hinges around his ability to protect. If a goal comes through, it’s almost always the goalkeeper’s fault. Such unbalanced rules lead to problems like hooliganism, extremely stale gameplay (one goal in 90 minutes is enough) and an overall appeal to the masses. It does make soccer a popular sport but it sure isn’t the best.

Next, compare to cycling or basketball. Everyone plays by the same rules which actually forces proper teamplay. Once you get into the strategy of these sports, it’s crazy how deep the rabbit hole goes on a meta level. However this forces deep understanding of the game mechanics and a bit more active intelligence to enjoy the game properly. It also leads to active and compelling gameplay throughout the game.

Guild Wars 2 does have team play, but it’s not as obvious to the naked eye. The whack-a-mole healing in trinity gameplay is like the goalkeeper. He plays a different game entirely and frankly doesn’t matter in the actual game.

Raine.1394:

AntiGw.9367:

Let Raine think that coming to NASA forums and using the word “potato” to describe neutron stars is going to work. He doesn’t understand the culture of gaming, and nothing you say is going to help.

I’ll just note the ad hominem here. There is no engagement, whatsoever, with anything I’ve said. And, again, ad hominems are usually resorted to when you are out of your depth in an argument. NASA forums? Right.

Please note whatever you like. Also note that your notes will be as relevant as your posts on NASA forums.

trinity is this
LF tank for 1h (dungeon, PVP) players log off, disband group = no dungeon run
LF priest for 1h same as above
After month of this, the game enters an inevitable death

If you consider human activity organized around a goal, from a scavenger hunt to brain surgery, the first thing sorted out is who is going to do what. Humans organize themselves by role.

The only place where this is not so is the berserker battlefield where everyone simply “goes for it” and does what’s right in their own eyes. The berserker battlefield actually describes a very primitive state and that’s why it’s not particularly satisfying. I don’t believe the trinity is the only solution, but I do believe that meaningful combat roles are desirable. Why? Because we are human and that’s how humans organize themselves around objectives.

Raine.1394:

colesy.8490:

Raine.1394:

colesy.8490:

And yet you haven’t even clarified what you mean by high level. Here was me thinking it was clearing the most challenging content of the game fast and efficiently, so Arah and Fractals 48 through to 79.

What I mean by high level is something other that what you have played. This is by definition by what you have demonstrated in this thread. You don’t even understand the current dungeon meta.

What?

I don’t understand the meta? You just claimed anchor guards are meta.

yep, you don’t understand the meta. If you claim the meta changed from anchor guards , please explain what, exactly, changed in order to change it. Thank you.

Edit: I do realize this would require actual thought, but I do recommend it as an exercize.

I already explained why the meta changed. We stopped being narrow minded and realised other classes (excluding necro) were actually good enough to be taken along dungeon runs (if not better), and that guards could run full DPS without compromising the team in any way. Literally the only situation recently that an “anchor” was used is by Define in HOTW p1, and even then I find that a bit dubious. Every other piece of content, guards either go 10/30/0/30/0 or or 10/30/0/5/25 glass cannon with full berserker. Another thing, meta groups hardly even take mesmers anymore because they’re not needed, even my own group barely does.

marnick.4305:

I miss the trinity like I miss that ex girlfriend I think of every so often. Sure I’d like to be with her again for all nostalgia reasons but few seconds later I realize why we broke up and how we wouldn’t last for more than a day together.

Same for the trinity. People might feel it’s a good system, but by thinking it through one realizes immediately why it’s that bad and why we got rid of it.

THAT is the perfect analogy!

Raine.1394:

If you consider human activity organized around a goal, from a scavenger hunt to brain surgery, the first thing sorted out is who is going to do what. Humans organize themselves by role.

But the rules are still the same for everyone, regardless of roles. In cycling, everyone has the same rules, even though everyone in a team has different responsibilities. In basketball each position has it’s own role yet everyone plays by the same rules.

Nice example in GW2 is the end boss of dredge fractal. Immediately a role has to be assigned, but the person acting that role doesn’t suddenly have a different rule. Furthermore, this role is very much dependent on team play.

On the other hand, healers and tanks are forced because they serve under a different rule set. Furthermore, these roles rarely force real team play, rather the contrary. A healer has its own self-contained minigame which has absolutely no influence on the boss fight as long as the minigame is performed correctly. Influence from other players is likewise minimal at best. Same for the tank. As long as he plays his minigame correctly, it has absolutely no bearing on what other players do or don’t.

Lokki.1092:

Aisa.2817:

So basically, we have to keep ourselves alive and work as a team to get through dungeons. What’s wrong with that?

Work as a team? Are we playing the same (PvE) game. My teams seem to work like this.

1. Get in group
2. No need to speak to anyone unless someone doesn’t know what to do
3. Wait for cut scenes.
4. Skip what needs to be skipped
5. Kill what needs to be killed.
6. Type in /s “P2 P3?” or “Ty”

Repeat.

There is no teamwork. Those player may as well be DPS bots or NPCs. Nothing I can do will save them nothing they can do will save me. And we are all better off DPSing our faces off and just avoiding damage in the first place.

that’s been my experience too. DPS bots all in zerker cookie cutter builds across the board, no purpose to anyone just DPS down the boss a total #1 spam fest in dungeons.

They wouldn’t harm anything by adding trinity lite to the game, not in the slightest. By adding the choices for CC condition damage and support fixing them so they are relevant again they’d actually be improving the combat for many.

People would still be responsible for their own main healing and dodging but it wouldn’t be a requirement, it would certainly be welcome if two guys held aggro while the rest of the team only had to dodge minor boss maneuvers and the heals in the tank zone were the only concern. They have the skills already for the tanky types to pull enemies to them or aggro thru aoe they just need the mechanic. They have the skills for burst heals they just need to adjust the numbers in PVE.

GW2 is one game in an ocean of trinity games. I don’t care how shallow it might seem to others, I just want this game to not have the same formulaic trinity gameplay that every other game has. Yes, even if it’s replaced with formulaic zerg fests.

I dislike trinity games, because I ultimately shoulder responsibility and play as a tank or healer. The rewards for doing so are usually not having to wait in line and getting tons of stuff accomplished, versus waiting diligently as a dps (which I’ve also done). Frankly, I don’t like playing a role that boils down to making sure everyone else is having a good time, especially when I pay the price big time for the mistakes of others. I’m not working with those people, I’m carrying them.