The Most Outdated Profession

The Most Outdated Profession

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Posted by: Nero.8047

Nero.8047

Hey all,

The title says it all, what do you consider to be the most outdated profession, why and how would you like to fix it?

I have created a strawpoll with all the professions + the Elite Specializations.
Although the Elite Specializations are quite new and thus likely not outdated I have decided to include them for a more complete picture.

http://strawpoll.me/7174063

My entry is:

The Guardian.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always loved Guardian and it has been my main since the Beta testing!
But…

  • Nearly the entire concept of the Guardian as a Master of Defences was nullified by the Berserker Meta.
  • Low HP pool was to balance for the amount of boons and other types of defence the Guardian has, yet these days there is a lot of boon corruption and defences are disregarded.
  • It is a very slow profession.
  • It has a relatively weak damage output compared to other classes. We have a moderate bursts and our sustained damage comes from the slow hammer.
  • Wards countered by… veteran mobs with permanent stability and there’s no effect to break-bars for crossing them.
  • Spirit Weapons.
  • Recharges of the Utility Skills are a lot longer than you’d expect from many. (Example: Sanctuary: for 6 seconds foes and projectiles can’t enter a bubble with a 120 radius (tiny!) – 90 second recharge + this is after it’s been updated not too long ago. )

As for a Fix…
I’m tempted to suggest the next elite specialization to be a faster, more offensive, condition oriented class with unstrippable boons… but that’s an elite specialization and I consider the main issue to be the base-profession of “Guardian”.

A reduction of the recharges of skills, a slight boost of damage output and a rework of wards and spirit weapons is desirable.
I am mainly sad however to have lost the image of “Defensive/Supportive Knight” due to the DPS focussed meta of “As much damage as possible, as little utility as needed.”

(Note: When speaking of damage I’m not talking about the PvP Dragonhunter Traps, that is an entirely different issue :P)

I am curious to see what others consider to be outdated professions!

Paragon of the Seraphim Order [Ankh]
a small, casual Guild with a play as you want style.

(edited by Nero.8047)

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Posted by: Zavve.8205

Zavve.8205

I would like to say Thief.

They are just so darn predictable imo. Even when stealthed, I can usually tell what their next move will be and I can easily counter their ranged and melee attacks.

I don’t play thief alot but whenever I am fighting one, they don’t really ever use staff or traps as much. Maybe the new specializations are really good and I have just been fighting the same person all these years lol.

I honestly can’t think of any fix that wouldn’t make them turn into mesmers. I just think they need something to help them to confuse their targets more so they are not so predictable. Then again, that sounds more like a mesmer too…

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Posted by: Farzo.8410

Farzo.8410

Low HP pool was to balance for the amount of boons and other types of defence

Don’t forget that many other professions stack boons way, way better than guardian too.

It is a very slow profession.

And that is fine to be honest, but it gets a bit ridiculous when every other profession except one more get 25% permanent speed trait or utility.

Nearly the entire concept of the Guardian as a Master of Defences was nullified by the Berserker Meta.

Agree and disagree. Guardian is still pretty good in that regard, and the Berserker meta has weakened a little bit, but to be honest, they are hardly the master of defense these days. Some other professions can be even better.

As for my own input-

Traits does barely have any synergy with each other. If you go one trait line, you better just go with this weapon, because the trait line got NOTHING for other weapons or utilities.

Sword auto-attack chain #3 still shoot out projectiles, while Revenant’s got changed into physical damage. Sword auto attack also ignores objects to attack in the world, causing you to cast it like 3 times without any damage done before it resets itself again.

Sword skill #3 still roots you and just misses everything.

Spirit weapons are generally useless, if they were up permanent like Necromancer minions they would be better.

Consecrations rarely, rarely get used because of the long cooldown and little effects it gives.

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Posted by: mrauls.6519

mrauls.6519

Thank you for creating this thread. Guardian is hella outdated. It needs an overhaul… Yes, Dragonhunter too

Mes (Guardian)
I make PvP & WvW videos

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Posted by: Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Blood Red Arachnid.2493

Not necessarily outdated, but lately the profession I’m having the hardest time with is the Engineer. For the simple fact that it takes two-three key presses to accomplish what other classes do in one.

Originally this wasn’t as much of a problem, because the engineer was both an extremely versatile and extremely potent class. But, as other classes keep getting buffs to their damage, and as they keep getting more utilities, the engi starts losing its place. Even if in theory the engi should still be pretty top tier, at least as far as condi damage goes, in practice my DPS is kitten by the convoluted nature of it all and my utility is cut down because I have to grab kits for DPS.

I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.

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Posted by: BrotherBelial.3094

BrotherBelial.3094

Low HP pool was to balance for the amount of boons and other types of defence

Don’t forget that many other professions stack boons way, way better than guardian too.

It is a very slow profession.

And that is fine to be honest, but it gets a bit ridiculous when every other profession except one more get 25% permanent speed trait or utility.

Nearly the entire concept of the Guardian as a Master of Defences was nullified by the Berserker Meta.

Agree and disagree. Guardian is still pretty good in that regard, and the Berserker meta has weakened a little bit, but to be honest, they are hardly the master of defense these days. Some other professions can be even better.

As for my own input-

Traits does barely have any synergy with each other. If you go one trait line, you better just go with this weapon, because the trait line got NOTHING for other weapons or utilities.

Sword auto-attack chain #3 still shoot out projectiles, while Revenant’s got changed into physical damage. Sword auto attack also ignores objects to attack in the world, causing you to cast it like 3 times without any damage done before it resets itself again.

Sword skill #3 still roots you and just misses everything.

Spirit weapons are generally useless, if they were up permanent like Necromancer minions they would be better.

Consecrations rarely, rarely get used because of the long cooldown and little effects it gives.

I agree with this, the only good thing to happen to guards is dragonhunter. The traps fall multiple mobs in seconds. But I agree, guards used to be great, now they are meh.

i5 4690K @ 3.5Mhz|8GB HyperX Savage 1600mHz|MSI H81M-E34|MSI GTX 960 Gaming 2GB|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|

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Posted by: cptaylor.2670

cptaylor.2670

Staff thief is amazing. I main staff/ pistol pistol. My biggest complaint is the pistol auto attack needs to be reworked to repeal alternate main and off hand attacks. I hate shooting from the same hand constantly.

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Posted by: Paulytnz.7619

Paulytnz.7619

I don’t know about outdated, maybe Warrior since it is the class in EVERY mmo ever made?

But I have to say that the Rev is the most restrictive…
Can’t change out your utility skills, really? Is this where we are going now? First less options in traits and now utilities. I think this is anet testing us to see if we will say anything and if not they may just go ahead and dumb down things even more. Fight the power people!

Since when did this business of being a hero become being a business?

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Posted by: Zavve.8205

Zavve.8205

Staff thief is amazing. I main staff/ pistol pistol. My biggest complaint is the pistol auto attack needs to be reworked to repeal alternate main and off hand attacks. I hate shooting from the same hand constantly.

Neat! I play WvW alot atm so maybe it is not popular there? I would love to see it in action though!

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Posted by: Scalyon.7028

Scalyon.7028

My Necro is outdated!

Oh, wait… this isn’t 2012 anymore.
After 3 years of waiting I’m in a happy place now.

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Posted by: Nero.8047

Nero.8047

Haha you Necro’s.
Me playing a Necro for a bit through the HoT areas while still having a Guardian as main to return to is what triggered this thread in the end!

As a Necromancer I was at full health at all times, never died, always had my minions and conditions to rely on + a Death Shroud safety net.

My Guardian suddenly felt a lot squishier again!

Paragon of the Seraphim Order [Ankh]
a small, casual Guild with a play as you want style.

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

Most outdated Class…

Brief said – they ALL are outdated, because each class has more or less some skills or traits, which are completely outdated, because they have never been touched by Anet’s Balance Patches until today, or in general the whole Combat System of GW2 is in many cases also very outdated, where Anet hasn’t done within the last years very much to really improve and expand the combat system with mechanics, that make the combat system more fun. No, Anet rather even removed some parts more or less from the game – cough underwater combat, there to speak about outdated game concepts.

No, instead they made alot of changes, that crippled the cobmat system more, than these changes did anythign good for the game, but instead caused from patch to patch only more power creep.

The whole Attribute System of this game is outdated and absolutely not functionally working for this game’s combat System.
Half of the attributes work way too good, while the other half is useless garbage.

The whole Max Health Balance about class specific Base Health values is totally outdated, nothing has been changed on this to balance the game better until today 3,5 years later after release!!

The Condition System is since the June 23rd patch of 2015 totally outdated and out of control, it has completely thrown the game balance of this game out of the window until today and no real fixes have been made about this until today

The Hard CC Systems are since the introduction of the first Set of Elite-Specs also totally out of control, especialls with the Chronomancer. Hard CC finalls needs a limiter exactly like Stealth, so that Hard CCs can’t be permanently spammed anymore, but should be more like TACTICAL sklls than when used at the right moment are good tide turners in combat, however, if you got already hard cced, there needs to exist some kind of cc protection for a while, so that you cant get instantly permastunned again. Stuff like that are freaking BASICS for any kind of good realtime based action combat system and naturally a game like GW2 is missing such kind of important basic mechanics and that also since game release …

I personally also think it would be for this games combat system better, if all classes would receive 1 additional Weapon Slot, so that players could have more versatile gameplay builds between 2-3 weapons (two in the case of classes that were allowed before to have only 1 weapon set at any given time)
In GW1 we were allowed to use like 4-5 different weapon sets with our characters, limiting it here to 1-2 is very much crippling everyones build diversity and gameplay tactical options in combat, that would make especially in combination with Elite Specializations sense, that the Elite-Spec Weapon should automatically become the pregiven Weapon Slot Number 2/3.
So in the case for example of a Daredevil, the moment you change into Daredevil, Weapon Slot 3 should become automatically preset by the Staff, Staff is the mandatory weapon of the Daredevil Specialization, so by usign that build you should always have the option to battle with the staff in this case.
In case of playing the basic Thief, you would have 3 slots free of choice, that you could use then for example for D/D, SB, S/P or for D/D, P/P, SB or whatever you prefer more, but when you become Daredevil, it owuld be automatically for you always X, X, Staff as part of having chosen the Daredevil Specialization as its the build which enables you to use staves, so it should be always with you under this build.

Wouldn’t have thieves received lately their damage buffs, they’d be clearly the most outdated class of all by now, followed by rangers, guardians, warriors, necromancers, elementalists, engineers and mesmers in that order, with rangers nearly sharing the same spot as thieves and that just with their whole pet gameplay

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

(edited by Orpheal.8263)

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Posted by: Gaile Gray

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet Communications Manager

I miss my Ritualist. Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

Gaile Gray
Communications Manager
Guild & Fansite Relations; In-Game Events
ArenaNet

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Warrior.

It’s been in almost every RPG since the beginning of RPG history.

But in GW2, still Warrior.

It really does not fill the character archetype it’s trying to fill, and with berserker they jumped the shark and tried to turn it into some condi abomination

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Posted by: Doggie.3184

Doggie.3184

I miss my Ritualist. Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

I miss my Assassin and his beautiful armor. Thief needs updated to Assassin.

| Fort Aspenwood (NA): Sylvari Daredevil Thief Main: All Classes 80. |
Please Remove/Fix Thief Trait: “Last Refuge.”
“Hard to Catch” is a Horrible and Useless Trait. Fixed 6/23/15. Praise Dwayna.

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Posted by: Tearthy Flame.1463

Tearthy Flame.1463

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/My-Solution-Confessor-Elite-Specialization/first#post5522412

I won’t try to make that link pretty to look at. Straight up you know what it is, that’s good enough… Scroll to Contents and read on from there. Remember that post was 6 months ago and a much older patch. Also a worth while look at how difficult it is to make ES’s change gameplay/playstyle yet still synergies with the base class. Yet it really shows how unpractical it is to develop ES in general… Full Elite Professions in theme with the base class (Not Over Powered Classes) is the more optimal rout, also easier to create & balance.

I agree with @Orpheal as well. Everything is out of Date. The kind of encounters we are against normally cannot feel very creative, ‘cause there is just layers of meaningless mechanics on top another. Breakbar-*rough cough-…. 2-3 weapons!? I would love that but Elementalist would get a heck of a lot more confusing lol, I think it would have to be an out-of-combat-weapon-swap. It wouldn’t be so OP on Engineer but very nice!

-Anyway. Thief, bored the heck out of me, I leveled it to 80 got DareDevil, and did other, then Delete! It’s useful for the stealth but it doesn’t get that much better. I am that person whom slaps Ventari’s (Nomad’s) on Guardian and becomes a tanking/healing beast! So my opinion on Thief is being a Damage-Only profession isn’t very fun to play because (Like any Profession) the traits lack build diversity. Engineer is the only profession I feel comfortable with being equipped with Verata’s (Sinister).

No I do not defend Guardian, it still sucks, but with the correct stats it is extremely support heavy. If it had the right design a Guardian could deal damage in very obscure and powerful ways, Burning Damage lacks creativity… It wouldn’t be so bad to give Guardian buffing and debuffing ability’s just depends on what you want to be better at.

I think Chronomancer helps Mesmer be better at confusion builds but it’s really not the same as GW1 Mesmer, hard to play and entirely painful to be hexed to death. The game just isn’t hard to play, GW1 has lack luster moment to moment combat but the amount of builds that can be achieved is INSANE. Mixing your profession with other profession skills is what made it so fun.

Necromancer was way better in the beginning of GW2. Your build could be extremely lazy or very difficult, play it well and you can solo a lot of difficult content. Again agreeing with, @Orpheal; Conditions are very overpowered right now and Necromancer should’ve been better with conditions than Engineer, But it isn’t! Engineer is the only class with the most fun condition builds that work very well.

Warrior was also better before the change we have now, I felt like a pocket knife with tweezers, toothpick, can opener, the whole shabam! The trait layout was perfectly fine, but now it’s just crippling Warrior, more than just having useless traits…

There is so many problems with the combat system the general information goes on and on… The problem is mainly with the Profession design. ArenaNet should improve Professions first before they can make content with Easy or Hard difficulty. Post-poem the Expansions, so that the professions stop getting worse to play. With proper improvements crazy technology and complex coding can create very fun ways to play professions and create builds.

Revenant is the only Profession that isn’t completely crippled by the new trait layout, but I agree the Legends should get a set of 2 different skills to pick from. So basically, each legend would come with 2 different Heal Skill, 6-8 different utility, 2 different Elites. It would help with better diversity with one Legend and make some people happier. Getting a new legend & ES would feel rewarding. (Don’t assume you’ll be able to use them all at once, you’ll only use the normal 5, just having other utility skills to equip is nice.)

ArenaNet has to much on their plate ATM before the Combat & Profession systems can get a proper overhaul, this would also include changes to Enemy’s and Bosses. But doing this would make the game not seem so Outdated. I believe the hard work will be worth it, Nerfing and adding more ES’s just covers the issues.

“I don’t take insults from a tree! Have at you, leafy!”

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Posted by: Payne.1250

Payne.1250

I miss my Ritualist. Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

Thanks god they’ll be back for the next expansion, with hammers and … ups big sorry

[TSS] Tequatl Slayer Squad

#TeamAmber

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

I miss my Ritualist. Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

O.o

Gail said the word Ritualist. And then said Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

It’s a sign!!! A message from Above! They’re bringing the Rit back!

(Runs off to tell EVERYONE!!!!!)

^^

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: PaxTheGreatOne.9472

PaxTheGreatOne.9472

I miss my Ritualist. Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

Thanks god they’ll be back for the next expansion, with hammers and … ups big sorry

Well paragon (yeah really) , and dervish as well…

23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.

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Posted by: Tearthy Flame.1463

Tearthy Flame.1463

This is getting off-topic. xD Love Ritualist and every profession in GW1, though Ranger wasn’t my type. But this thread is about what we think on what will improve professions and what is Outdated. I’d love to talk GuildWars but I’d rather play the game.

“I don’t take insults from a tree! Have at you, leafy!”

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

Give the Necro the ability to summon spirits and give spirit weapons to allies.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: cptaylor.2670

cptaylor.2670

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/My-Solution-Confessor-Elite-Specialization/first#post5522412

-Anyway. Thief, bored the heck out of me, I leveled it to 80 got DareDevil, and did other, then Delete! It’s useful for the stealth but it doesn’t get that much better. I am that person whom slaps Ventari’s (Nomad’s) on Guardian and becomes a tanking/healing beast! So my opinion on Thief is being a Damage-Only profession isn’t very fun to play because (Like any Profession) the traits lack build diversity. Engineer is the only profession I feel comfortable with being equipped with Verata’s (Sinister).

It would seem that way, but it depends on how you build your thief. Staff thief/alternating sword/pistol for the extra evade+blindness makes it pretty good for damage reduction. Really just building a staff daredevil focused on healing from initiative and having lots of lifesteal gives it quite a bit of survivability. With the staff 4 not only blinding your target so that it misses but giving you health back from using initiative+plus the low cooldown block ability…. I haven’t personally tried tanking but I can definitely see it being viable if you ever wanted to experiment. Wouldn’t toss it to the side so quickly.

I’m really lifesteal/marauder/berserker acro/critical strikes/daredevil build and it’s honestly the most fun class I’ve played lately even though it isn’t where I’d like it to be yet in pvp. Just rambling, but basically don’t be so quick to judge. It’s no bunker chrono, but it can hold its own.

The fractal with the lava and the golem is insanely fun with my build because when the golemn gets the +damage taken debuff, I can stand in pretty much anything and keep instantly heal myself to full while attacking. lol

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Posted by: Tipper.6973

Tipper.6973

I think the two most outdated are Warrior and Guardian.

Guardian abilities, as others have said, have become sub-par over time. Most of them have excessively long cooldowns, and unimpressive effects. Not only that, but some of their abilities are just downright broken.

How long has the Sword chain been bugged? How long have players been begging for the projectile aspect of it to be removed? The Consecration abilities are so bad that I think that cutting their cooldowns in half wouldn’t be OP. What about Spirit Weapons? Do I even need to mention those?

I also think Guardian base health needs to be bumped up to the middle-level. This seems like an unnecessary / unfair disadvantage when I look at a class like the Revenant, who has a very similar role. Not to mention the constant damage inflation since release, making this low health-pool mechanic questionable to begin with.

Warrior suffers from similar problems. They are basically shoehorned into using stances if they want to survive, and it just feels cheesy as hell. Physical skills have literally never been used and you could stealth-delete them from the game and I don’t think anyone would notice. The class is junk in pvp, and have been since HoT released. I feel like nearly ALL their utilities need to be looked at.

But more importantly, I feel like Warrior trait lines are the worst traits in the game. Their synergies are all over the place, and each tree doesn’t really feel like it fills its theme / role properly. Discipline is 100% mandatory for any pvp build (and many pve builds), no questions asked. Due to HoT inflation, Berserker is also pretty much mandatory. So that leaves you with a choice of one trait line to play around with when designing your build. Real fun.

For what it’s worth, I think we need major overhaul of core abilities and traits for all classes. The big overhaul they got before HoT didn’t account for the new elite specs. Now that this system is in place and we’ve had time to experiment, it’s time for a serious look at the actual traits and abilities.

PS bring back Ricochet for Thieves pls

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Posted by: zengara.8301

zengara.8301

Thief:

- Stealth was mainly by thief but now used by a lot of professions, and some professions even have better form of stealth, as for example the massive stealth by mesmer that can stealth a whole zerg or the scrapper that can stealth for like 30 sec
- Mobility, thief used to be the main class that focus around mobility, even the old trailers show Thiefs as jumping all around, but now again a lot of classes fulfill this role
which means that any role can be changed with thief since they are no good in PvE since might stack or condi cleanse is better or PvP, since low health and high dmg doesnt compare to the buff dealing etc.
_______________________
Edit:
Seems like some of these comments are just about balance, rather than actual professions getting outdated, in other words, the class being replaceable in any situation.

(edited by zengara.8301)

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Posted by: Zephyra.4709

Zephyra.4709

Warrior because my love and zest for cladding myself in the generic melee equipment is rendered useless due to the dominating size of the ranged ‘pirate ship’ meta going on atm; I care naught for Warrior outside of WvW…. but WvW is my #1 game mode and I can no longer enjoy it on Warrior… furthermore one must note stability is useless…

…Dolyak Signet? What a joke – those stab stacks are gone instantly in a zerg fight thanks to the relentless wave of power creep + CC-fest going on whilst leaving Warrior in the ‘stone age’ swinging his hammer around and he’d be lucky enough to have one swat on an enemy before being baby-gated to death.

The list could go on but you grasp the picture.

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Posted by: Tearthy Flame.1463

Tearthy Flame.1463

  • @cptaylor
    But at the core it’s still a Thief. At this point I wouldn’t change my Verata’s back to Ventari’s just for that or even a Scrapper Tank. Though I would’ve loved to troll with a Ventari’s Thief/DareDevil, cause Venatri’s is Redic’…
    Yeah I knocked it quite fast but that’s because what Thief does isn’t very fun to me. But I also never played a 80 thief before HoT. That’s another problem I have with lack of previous experience (Though a old Guild Leader of mine talked about it a lot). The traits with every profession is lacking a lot of in-depth playability. With this current state I have to leave it abandoned till it is developed by a Dev that knows what it should be. Not still developed by a person that doesn’t play Thief seriously.
    That’s also mainly counting on Weapons and Blind that’s hardly a build and a good use of Traits.
    zengara could be right about Mesmer. But overall I see Stealth as a very useless ability. There is a reason to knock Thief, it is quite sad.
    Ain’t touchin’ it with Scarlet’s Kiss even if it could wield a Rifle.
  • @Just a flesh wound
    Now you’re just turning Necro into a Ritualist, that wouldn’t work. If it wasn’t a single Specialization Line but a whole profession it would work much better. And I don’t think Necro can deal with Spirits but more VooDoo Black Magic! Throwing chicken feet everywhere! I personally would love to play better Siphon builds, changing the function of Healing Power. Use Death Shroud as a way to summon Dark Entity’s that take a physical form created by flesh or remain a black smoke. I feel it should be more functional than mindless Minions. But Hey, I think Rit has a place in GW2. Release Ritualist & Assassin + a new ‘Mystery Profession’ with a Cantha Expansion, I would buy that. Same concept with Elona.
“I don’t take insults from a tree! Have at you, leafy!”

(edited by Tearthy Flame.1463)

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Posted by: Drakz.7051

Drakz.7051

They should consider adding something like a sub elite spec, goes in spec slot 2 as the game needs more specs to go along with what will be a growing number of elite specs eventually.

Heck do I for slot 1 as well xD so you have more choices in spec development.

I want to see many different builds being used not the same 1 or 2 everywhere.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

ah i thought this was gonna be about warrior
guardian old timer too

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

I want to lean towards Guardians because they have two weapons, Hammer and Mace, that are really incongruous for PvP. Symbols in general are just really really underwhelming in PvP.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Nero.8047

Nero.8047

Very true Sarrs unless you play unranked haha.
I’ve been in a lot of unranked games where the players don’t dodge any traps, remain standing on symbols and can’t grasp the context of wards.
I love to use my hammer + mace/shield in PvP-unranked! ^^

Still as I’ve said before I fear the profession to be severely outdated and I’ve already heard many others with great claims as well!

Paragon of the Seraphim Order [Ankh]
a small, casual Guild with a play as you want style.

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Posted by: Sphinx.8014

Sphinx.8014

Thief.

- Daredevil has basically made acrobatics irrelevant, as it does the same and more
- Other professions are now better in stealthing, which was supposed to be the thief’s strong suit
- The revenant in shiro stance is a better thief than the thief (especially with S/A)
- Initiative was completely left out when they designed alacrity
- It has no value for the team, in a meta that requires team synergies (PvE)
- Only good for damage (PvE)
- Bad in team fights
- And 1v1s
- the shortbow is nearly useless if it weren’t for the mobility
- Stolen items don’t matter in PvE
- Dagger/dagger dual skill is anti-synergistic (condition skill while everything else is power)
- Pistol auto attack anti-synergistic and just plain bad (condition skill while everything else is power)
- No diversity of viable builds
- Boring to play, as the autoattack now does the best damage
- Traps are useless
- Venoms are useless (basilisk venom being an exception, but that’s an elite skill)
- Far too many useless traits
- Many other things I forgot to mention

(edited by Sphinx.8014)

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

Warrior is the most outdated class followed by guardian. Theres no point to even argue over it. Its a fact. Funny enough revenant despite being new has a lot of outdated stuff as well btw (about 75% of the class) as it was designed before june spec power creep.

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

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Posted by: Doam.8305

Doam.8305

I miss my Ritualist. Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

I miss my Assassin and his beautiful armor. Thief needs updated to Assassin.

What about the Paragon?
Echoes, Shouts, Chants, Land Spears, and the aria’s plus a type of reactionary support that doesn’t exist in GW2 aside a single virtue. Let my party inflict blindness with their next hit, let them receive regeneration when they are struck in battle, and let their condi’s be purged the next time they are healed. A class that would really shine as a raid, wvw, mentor, or just a basic leader in general.

Also I wouldn’t say any of these modern classes are outdated but rather that all classes have skills that need to be updated also they could probably use additional skills that would combo better with existing skills that are hardly used.

(edited by Doam.8305)

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Posted by: Nero.8047

Nero.8047

Paragon is and has always been my favourite profession since Nightfall.
I hoped for the Guardian to be somewhat similar yet more magic based.
I loved supporting my team with the Paragon and videos like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBj4DD2saDg
Convinced me of the supportive potential Guardians have.

This is what I suggested for Guardians in the Guardian-subforum:
(Read on from the bold alinea to get the basic elite specialization suggestion.)

You can always add more versatility to the spear by making it both close-combat and ranged combat, both offensive and defensive, both condition and power.

I believe for a weapon that has the ideal intention of sustain, a balanced aproach like this is wonderful.
For the range, we’ve seen how this can work on the underwater revenant to name an example.
I’d just like to see a Guardian throw a spear in a javelin-fashion -> use the gap-closer you were talking about -> use the AA-Chain and block when needed.

Adding both types of range to the weapon also improves the defensive/offensive balance.
In most situations you might expect that stacking + melee zerk-burning will remain. But we’ll never know what direction the game will take. We know what amazing things our new AI-Devs have brought to the table in HoT compared to the original release.
This is only the beginning. Actively switching between closed-combat/ranged and offensive/defensive may be just the thing we’d need in the future and a balanced polearm/spear would be exactly the weapon to fill that role.

The only part where I’m torn is my suggested power/condi balance in 1 weapon.
Seeing to both will likely result in not being great in either. I’d like to suggest making the spear mostly a condition weapon as well then.

For the elite specialization regarding this I’d also support a throwback to the old Paragons.
Chants, Anthems and Shouts can all find a way to work themselves in our role well.
Paragon-like gameplay will be able to shine well in GW2.

I used to play a Paragon in GW1 ever since Nightfall was released.
I was made fun of in solo- and praised in group-content.
This was mainly due to the mechanic of the Leadership attribute which caused you to need allies to fuel your energy. There is no need to go down this same road again in GW2.
A GW2-Paragon may be alright in solo- but shine in group-content.
An example of this could be by adding utilities like the chants/anthems.
These are utility skills that affect multiple allies. You can use them for yourself, they work just as well. But if you had any allies around you it would support them.

an example skill:
“Anthem of Flame”
GW1 Veterans will know it:

  • Chant. For 10 seconds, the next attack skill used by each party member within earshot also causes Burning for 1…3…3 second[s].

This skill works in solo content, you get a nice burn out of it. but in group content the burn would be applied by multiple party-members.
In GW2 it could work the same way but with updated terminology.
Imagine having a decent burn by use of this chant. alright great.
Now imagine stacking this burn with 5 or even 10 allies in a 1200 radius.
This is likely way too much but it’s just to imagine the possibilities.

A Guild Wars 2 Paragon supports group-playing, it adds a valuable role which is in high demand: An offensive party-wide buffer which could also work defensively combined with its own DPS source.
We know how great the Ranger’s spirits or the Warrior’s banners are, there is no need for our Guardians, to not buff their supportive capabilities in a similar fashion with chants and anthems.

Note: Chants/Anthems aren’t boons.
Guardians have seen a lot of hate with the introduction of all the boon corrupting on Revenants, Mesmers and Necromancers. Chants/Anthems can not be removed by anti-boon spells.

Another great mechanic is the echo system.

As a Guardian we currently have our 3 virtues.
Virtue of Justice – Damage + burning – Offensive.
Virtue of Resolve – Healing (+ damage/movement if DH) – Utility + Defensive.
Virtue of Courage – Block – Defensive.

I believe the virtues could easily become Echoes.
Echo of Justice (GW1: Blazing Finale) –
Passive: Allies inflict burning whenever a Chant or Anthem ends. (weak burning)
Active: Throw a blazing spear at the target foe, burning it and enemies surrounding it.
Echo of Resolve (Finale of Restoration) –
Passive: Allies are healed whenever a Chant or Anthem ends.
Active: (GW1: “Help me!”) Heals are 50% more effective on you for 10 seconds and you’re healed for a small amount.
Echo of Courage
Passive: Allies gain Retaliation whenever a Chant or Anthem ends.
Active: Allies gain 2 stacks of Aegis. (OP?)

The reason why I gave the Echo of Courage an active effect of giving Aegis is because I really appreciate the on-demand Aegis found in “Retreat!”. Many of us agree however that this skill is very outdated with its small benefit and long recharge.
The Echo of Courage would have an even longer recharge if it follows the example of its virtue-counterparts and as such I saw it fit to buff the active.

A 4th bonus to counter a condi-meta:
Echo of Purity
Passive: Allies will have 1 condition removed whenever a Chant or Anthem ends.
Active: Gain Resistance and remove 2 conditions.

I’d love to once again become a motivating presence on the battlefield shouting phrases such as: “There’s nothing to fear!”, “Never surrender!” and especially “Never give up!”


Utility skill suggestions I’d love to see returned, modified or introducted for GW2:

Skill type: Altruism
Skills that affect only 1 other ally instead of yourself. Bringing this will be a great help for someone else in your party, but you won’t directly get any benefit from it. Unless perhaps traited otherwise.

Angelic Bond

  • A chant/anthem that lasts for 10 seconds, if during the duration of this skill an ally affected by the chant/anthem were to receive fatal damage, the damage is negated, the target is healed and this effect ends on all other allies.

Leader’s Comfort (Heal)

  • You gain health, you gain additional health for each ally within range.

“Make Haste!”

  • Altruism – Target ally gains quickness and superspeed.

Holy Spear (off topic: my favourite spear-attack in GW1)

  • Throw a spear a spear at your foe and deal extra damage + burning if certain conditions are met.

In GW1 this condition was: If your target is undead and was later changed to: if it’s a summoned creature. I would however like to revise this skill once again for GW2.
In GW1 Holy Damage could not be blocked. I’d like to see the Holy Spear become a skill that punishes bunkers/blockers.

Throwing the spear would be a small burn if thrown randomly.
Throwing the spear at a blocking target would make it go through the block, damage, burn and perhaps even knock the target back a small bit.
Really OP? yes, but you have to use this skill at JUST the right time + consider it valuable enough to bring it with you in the first place. if you don’t time it correctly you’re basically throwing a tiny spark of burning damage.

Spear Swipe

  • Physical skill – Smack your enemy on the head with your spear. launching them.

Enduring Harmony

  • Altruism – Chants and Shouts last 50% longer on target ally.

Burning Shield

  • Physical skill – Assume a defensive stance and block the next attack, if blocked you unleash a fiery burst.

Cautery Signet (“Save Yourselves!”)

  • Passive: Remove a condition every 10 seconds.
    Active: You draw all the conditions of allies within range to yourself and add burning to yourself for each condition.

The passive effect isn’t new, there’s Signet of Resolve with the shared effect. These two will however work together.
The active will cause you to receive a condition spike in many situations so you’d have to be prepared with resistance or condition-removals.

“You only live once!”

  • Altruism – Target ally is revived when downed.
    (Sorry I had to.)

This was all written without any preparation and should thus be taken with the mother of all grains of salt. I am mainly here to support the Paragon Elite Specialization.

Although I have changed my opininon on some bits I do still truly believe that a fast-paced, supportive, yet also condition(burning)-offensive elite specialization would do the Guardian a lot of well-deserved good.

Paragon of the Seraphim Order [Ankh]
a small, casual Guild with a play as you want style.

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Posted by: zengara.8301

zengara.8301

Warrior is the most outdated class followed by guardian. Theres no point to even argue over it. Its a fact. Funny enough revenant despite being new has a lot of outdated stuff as well btw (about 75% of the class) as it was designed before june spec power creep.

How so, I would actually have reversed it and say that Warrior and Guardian have always been needed in every party/raid/WvW/fractal etc.

I would have chosen Thief or Ranger since they both are truly useless in any of the things above.

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Posted by: Sphinx.8014

Sphinx.8014

Only if you separate the druid from Rangers, as they are needed in raids. Thief however is only tolerated if every other relevant position is filled.

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Posted by: Deleena.3406

Deleena.3406

I have to agree with one thing both warrior/guardian could use a redo for alot of their utility skills. (its at the point where you pick the good ones and rarely swap them out!)

by comparison i find myself swapping around ele/ranger/necro/engineer utility
skills alot
(also base ranger had party buffs that was useful till dungeons kinda died xD)

(edited by Deleena.3406)

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Posted by: Nero.8047

Nero.8047

Note that in this thread as well as on the strawpoll, I have split Professions and Specializations.

  • A Warrior being outdated does not mean the Berserker is.
  • A Guardian being outdated means it’s a Guardian without the Dragonhunter elite spec.

I do consider warriors to be outdated due to a lot of utility skills never seeing any use and the traits being a mess, but I’d like to argue that they can still participate decently well in all content even without the Berserker Elite Specialization.

A Guardian however, even WITH the Dragonhunter Elite Specialization isn’t top-tier in PvE nor in PvP.

PvE:

  • Damage is mediocre at best,
  • Boons are better provided by other classes,
  • Reflects are done better by others,
  • Condi removal is done better by others,
  • Their traits are a horrible mess with as little synergy as you can think of etc.

Everything a Guardian does is simply outclassed by others.

Warriors, although dealing less damage than an ele/tempest are still a strong profession. You won’t have a lot of choice regarding skills/traits and you will rarely touch your utility-skills but you will be able to participate well.

Guardians, although used as an anchor for raids and fractals now with the slow-perma-protection hammer, see no other use.

  • Our damage simply isn’t enough to seriously fill a DPS-role.
  • Our utility requires too many traits and focus on support for it to be viable in this berserker-focussed meta.
  • Top-tier wise our Burst is terrible even with DH-traps
  • Our sustained damage comes from the hammer which is slow yet grants healing with the symbol + perma protection. That Healing + protection being the only reasons Guardians are taken into some Raid/Fractal groups at all! :c

The Dragonhunter was a great step in the right direction for PvE Guardians. We were lacking in power, we got a boost in power. Yet the core-problems remain with the core-profession which A-net considers to be “in the right place right now”.

PvP:

  • Warrior, as far as I know, is a joke, even with Berserker and is thus truly outdated for PvP. Even when I play a Non-Dragonhunter Guardian in Unranked I get called a “broken-class-player” by warriors because the Guardian is too OP for some reason I can’t grasp.
  • Guardian is considered OP due to the Dragonhunter’s traps + Longbow which provides Hunter’s Ward among others. The profession is however very predictable and easily countered. Without traps Dragonhunters are very vulnerable and traps are easily countered by those who reach higher ranks in the ranked arena.
  • A Guardian which does NOT use the Dragonhunter elite-specialization lacks a lot of power. Yet can be decently tanky for unranked games. A hammer + mace/shield Guardian using meditations is a lot of fun and probably my favourite thing to use in Unranked PvP ever.
  • Guardians need meditations or the Rune of the Pack to get around because on its own it is simply too slow and it is in no way worth it to bring “Retreat!” or a staff into PvP be it unranked or not.
  • Boon-stripping. :c

WvWvW

  • my knowledge on Warriors is simply too lacking for WvWvW.
  • Dragonhunters are abundant in WvWvW due to the longbow/traps/staff.
Paragon of the Seraphim Order [Ankh]
a small, casual Guild with a play as you want style.

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Posted by: Akkeros.1675

Akkeros.1675

zerker warrior 1v1 is a very good class.
However, to contribute to a group while remaining effective….that is a different story. It is like the equivalent of a backline thief in wvw minus stealth and venom
Thus, any two classes that favorably group together can usually handle a warrior + ______

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Posted by: Mea.5491

Mea.5491

“Recharges of the Utility Skills are a lot longer than you’d expect from many”

This applies to every profession. The cooldown on utilities and some profession-specific skills is ridiculous. Even some weapon skill cooldowns are way too long (Necro or Ele staff for example). We don’t have many skills in this game so lower cooldowns would make combat more fast-paced and fun.

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Posted by: Nero.8047

Nero.8047

It goes for many professions indeed but there certainly are scales of severity.
I will always use the Guardian’s consecration: “Sanctuary”.
For 6 seconds foes and projectiles cannot enter the bubble with a radius of 120.
90 seconds recharge + 1 and a half second cast time.

Issues:

  • the ridiculous recharge
  • insanely long cast time for a skill that’s supposed to shelter allies.
  • 6 seconds duration for projectile absorption which you rarely get to use.
  • Enemies can’t enter it, unless they have stability or are a veteran mob or higher like… almost every mob in HoT! :p
  • 120 radius, this is smaller than untraited marks on a necro (mark of blood = 240r). this is smaller than the blast radius of an engineer’s bombs. (also 240r) this is smaller than nearly all “AoE-skills”. It is the radius of the engineer’s grenades’ AoE damage and that isn’t the range thrown, it’s the range of the explosion.

I have searched http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Utility_skill for other skills that have a worse cast/recharge/effect ratio yet Sanctuary wins the cup.
second place goes to Hallowed Ground which… is also a Guardian Consecration.

Edit:
I just recalled how Sanctuary was planned to be an elite skill.
On top of that: Pre-release elite skills were planned to have a recharge of 720 seconds.
Imagine THAT Hell.

Paragon of the Seraphim Order [Ankh]
a small, casual Guild with a play as you want style.

(edited by Nero.8047)

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Posted by: EvilTwin.4125

EvilTwin.4125

Now this is an interesting discussion. I personally would say that all the current classes have their place and are not outdated per se, but the cooldown lengths mentioned (as well as cast times & other issues) do seem to indicate some fixes would be in order.

Take the elementalist for instance; I don’t want to say it’s “outdated” but it does have certain issues. From what I can see (my own exp, YouTube videos from people who’ve played a lot more than I have), the elementalist has only 3 or 4 truly viable builds, the most commonly mentioned being double dagger/triple cantrip (with some variations having 2 cantrips & something else) using healing signet.

And why is that? Elementalists have other heals & utilities. Aside from a few specialized builds (burn build, for example, which I’ve never heard of being used in pvp but probably is at times), it’s full berserker equipment (or marauder now, I think the other one is called) + the stuff mentioned above.

The short reason is that the above build covers an elementalist’s weaknesses. I tried for a long time with glyph of healing & glyph of elemental power because they can cause regen (and thus remove a condition) just like the cantrips, assuming if they are specialized to do so. The problem is glyphs only do that in water attunement while cantrips can be used in any attunement, making them more versatile. Add to that the movement and stability from cantrips, and voila, why would you use a glyph build?

It’s a shame, a glyph build can have permanent swiftness & boons all over the place, but if you’ve just switched out of water, no regen & no clears from using glyphs. The cantrips are just easier to use.

So maybe something should be done to make the other options (glyphs and signets especially) more competitive with cantrips. [Note: I am aware a mix of cantrips and a signet or glyph can be used. I’m not looking for Guild Wars 3 yet.] It’s not that the other options are bad, it’s just they seem to get outdone. (If you could teleport around with frostbow….)

My ultimate point (if I have one) is that there’s a lot of options which don’t seem to be used so much, though of course I could be wrong, I don’t know everything. But being pushed into the same build as everyone else (more or less) doesn’t seem very dynamic. I’d like to use an all-glyph build and be just as survivable as a healing signet/triple cantrip build. Or maybe I just indulge in wishful thinking too much…

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Posted by: EvilTwin.4125

EvilTwin.4125

Oh frogs, not only did I ramble like a professor in a rambling class, I forgot something. The glyph of healing has a 1.25 second cast time. In fact, lots of heals in the game have cast times of 1 second or longer. This is okay for, say, the Mesmer heal Mirror because it reflects projectiles during the cast, but the healing signet has no such effect. You can lose half your health in 1.25 seconds in the wrong circumstance…and there are a lot of them. And if you lose half you health when you’re already at 1/4…well you know what happens then. If anything about this game is outdated, heal skills that are too easily interrupted because of excruciating cast times are. If the cast times were shortened, the heals could actually save you, but there would still be the possibility that you get stunned or knocked down before you can get to your button.

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Posted by: Wolfs Shadow.7234

Wolfs Shadow.7234

I miss my Ritualist. Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

Ironic I miss my paragon & MONK oh dear god I miss my monk

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Posted by: Cobrakon.3108

Cobrakon.3108

Note: My opinion is not based off of current balance, but instead the abilities that have been there from the beginning. So in a nut shell an "over all " look at the mechanics.

Elementalist- Many Button presses but lack of depth.

Warrior- lack of depth

Guardian- lack of depth

Enginner- Seemed like it had some good options but current balance may be pigeon-holing it.

Thief- Thief has the best mechanics IMO. Yeah Balance wise its a limiting factor, but overall it has interesting game mechanics.

Mesmer- Seems to have more depth than elementalist.

Necro- Deathshroud is kinda cheese, I don’t play necro all that often.

Revnant- seemed kinda bland from the beginning?

This is just my opinion overall not Current balance.

I dont see how people can get into warrior and guard: they seem to simplistic. Elementalist from the outside looks complicated but its an illusion. More button presses doesn’t necessarily mean more depth in game play.

I think probably everyone here wants more depth in game play.

(edited by Cobrakon.3108)

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Posted by: Demented Sheep.1642

Demented Sheep.1642

Might just because I’m not “getting” the class yet since it is my latest 80 but yeah, Guardian seem to have the highest number of skills that look like they could use a redo.

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Posted by: Firebird Gomer.9563

Firebird Gomer.9563

I miss my Ritualist. Oh wait, different definition of “outdated.”

If My Ranger could have a version of the Dervish as a Elite Specialization, well then my ranger would not be outdated.

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Posted by: Mordeus.1234

Mordeus.1234

Since the introduction of the Herald, the Guardian has become a bit of a jack-of-all-trades Profession. So I wouldn’t say it’s outdated, just that no longer occupies a particular niche and has more of a wider combat role. The critique I have of the Guardian is that it has a bit of an identity crisis. It’s hard to say where it excels in particular. I still wouldn’t say it’s falling behind the others though.

For me the Thief is trailing the other professions. I used to main a Thief but outside of novelty value I don’t see the point in playing him anymore. Especially when there is the Shiro Revenant. The core specializations seem rather hollow, particularly Acrobatics which was gutted to make way for the Daredevil. Of which brought very little variation. Outside of traited Venoms there is very little party support. Traps are also rather inferior to Rangers and Dragonhunters. Stealth used to be special is now spread out among several other Professions. Mainhand Pistol or Sword are outclassed by Shortbow, Dagger and Staff.

It feels like there are fewer ways to play the Thief today than before without being outclassed. The Thief has always had particular problems, it just feels like it has inherited more over the years. Acrobatics and/or Shadow Arts needs to be updated at the very least. At the moment I’m having more fun playing my Mesmer and Revenant as if they were Thieves.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Since the introduction of the Herald, the Guardian has become a bit of a jack-of-all-trades Profession. So I wouldn’t say it’s outdated, just that no longer occupies a particular niche and has more of a wider combat role. The critique I have of the Guardian is that it has a bit of an identity crisis. It’s hard to say where it excels in particular. I still wouldn’t say it’s falling behind the others though.

That’s because the core role of guardian, the one around which the whole profession has been designed (support bunker) has been made completely useless in the current meta. That’s why Guardian is really outdated as a profession.
Now, there’s a second profession that suffers that very same fate. In fact, suffers it so much that the Elite Spec for it aims for a completely different gameplay, with only a passing connection to the core class (because devs realized that nothing less than completely changing the class paradigm is going to work). That class is Ranger.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

That’s because the core role of guardian, the one around which the whole profession has been designed (support bunker) has been made completely useless in the current meta. That’s why Guardian is really outdated as a profession.

Well, no, that isn’t true. There is a spec which is a very powerful support bunker in the current meta: Aurashare Tempest.

Nalhadia – Kaineng