Guild Wars 2

Hey, I’m curious about something. For those of you who feel the activities of active traders is negatively impacting your game… what exactly is it that you’re doing that is being impacted by this activity? I only ask because I honestly can’t figure out what the TP is for for those of us who’d rather avoid that sort of thing, given there are supplies of very good items that have nothing to do with it (karma, tokens, etc).

I believe, for most, it’s a matter of goals, or rewards (or both) being made more difficult to get by the trader.

Simply, people playing games typically need a carrot dangled infront of them to progress. That can be the next part of the story, a new attack, some new equipment, whatever, but people like to feel like they’re working towards something, and they like to feel satisfied when they get it. Yes, a few games can be playable just for the fun of it, and GW2 is a very good game, but after a while when you’ve done every dungeon dozens of times, counted the scale on the back of every dragon’s back, finished your story, 100% world completion etc…you need that carrot to keep you going. Just that small bit of promise, to make what you’re doing seem rewarding and worth it.

In this game, at the moment, that means unique skins. Legendaries, etc.

As we know, it is flat out impossible to farm for all the stuff they, and similar weapons, require. 2-3 T6 drops over the course of one play session, when you need 2,000, isn’t going to keep anyone happy for long. Don’t get me started on lodestones. Sooner or later, if people want this stuff, people are going to have to buy it. And that’s where people see the TP guys making their life hard. Saving gold for mats and seeing prices rise, not because supply has naturally dropped, but because some tycoon bought them all? Not amusing.

I am currently after The Juggernaut. One week I looked at the precursor and it was around 200 gold. The very next week it was 400. The average player will look at that, and think, “no. kitten this.” As it happens, it’s one of the last things I need, so I can bear with it.

tl;dr People want stuff that the TP guys keep making more expensive, just because they can.

People spread lies to make prices shift so that they can buy/sell for profit.

Their profit come from other players via dishonesty. Not friendly behaviour.

Also, it results in more wealth removed from the game due to fees. There are more than enough gold sinks making us poor, and for the rich to remove 30g from fellow players to keep 15g for themselves is not good.

The other case with rich people buy all of a certain item up and reposting them all for a higher price just makes an insanely rich person richer and they leech from the rest of us. If you have that much gold, you could stop using the TP completely and still never spend it all. The game to them is hoarding as much gold as possible, which is sinister considering it doesn’t do them any good but does the rest of the players bad.

It’s kind of interesting.

Just like real life.

If anything, more people should play GW2, understand its economy – and perhaps gain wisdom about real life they would not otherwise have.

I’d like to say that I have nothing against TP gurus at all, but do think a lot of this could be solved in ANet added alternative ways of getting items. Add lodestones to the dungeons, for tokens. Then people can mystic forge them, grind out dungeons, or yes, save up and pay for them. Increase T6 drops a little, or give the forge a better rate of return if you’re using T5’s.

The “scavenger hunt” might help things out with precursor, though I’m hoping that getting a hold of them is challenging to the extreme.

xiv.7136:

It’s kind of interesting.

Just like real life.

If anything, more people should play GW2, understand its economy – and perhaps gain wisdom about real life they would not otherwise have.

Eh, no…A fantasy game where the end goal is to end a dragon’s life should NOT emulate real life. People play games to enjoy a “seperate” life. If you want the life simulator, play the Sims, or games similar to that. It should never be a job or a chore to achieve anything in a video game. And please do not confuse job/chore with challenge, as challenge is fine…as long as it doesn’t require you to make real life a second to the priority of obtaining an item in any game.

cNcHellShadow.7691:

xiv.7136:

It’s kind of interesting.

Just like real life.

If anything, more people should play GW2, understand its economy – and perhaps gain wisdom about real life they would not otherwise have.

Eh, no…A fantasy game where the end goal is to end a dragon’s life should NOT emulate real life. People play games to enjoy a “seperate” life. If you want the life simulator, play the Sims, or games similar to that. It should never be a job or a chore to achieve anything in a video game. And please do not confuse job/chore with challenge, as challenge is fine…as long as it doesn’t require you to make real life a second to the priority of obtaining an item in any game.

Here’s what’s really going to blow your mind.

Even in a high fantasy setting, people who aren’t fighting dragons or fighting wars against the undead will trade. Trading is an activity as old as human history. And where there are traders, there are market manipulators.

Even during famines, during plagues, during wars, even during dragon and undead invasions – the market remains.

And that’s a very real lesson for real life

xiv.7136:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

xiv.7136:

It’s kind of interesting.

Just like real life.

If anything, more people should play GW2, understand its economy – and perhaps gain wisdom about real life they would not otherwise have.

Eh, no…A fantasy game where the end goal is to end a dragon’s life should NOT emulate real life. People play games to enjoy a “seperate” life. If you want the life simulator, play the Sims, or games similar to that. It should never be a job or a chore to achieve anything in a video game. And please do not confuse job/chore with challenge, as challenge is fine…as long as it doesn’t require you to make real life a second to the priority of obtaining an item in any game.

Here’s what’s really going to blow your mind.

Even in a high fantasy setting, people who aren’t fighting dragons or fighting wars against the undead will trade. Trading is an activity as old as human history. And where there are traders, there are market manipulators.

Even during famines, during plagues, during wars, even during dragon and undead invasions – the market remains.

And that’s a very real lesson for real life

Good point, however has nothing to do with an item called “legendary” in a lore based fantasy game that’s acquired not through your own feats, story, or gameplay but in manipulating and playing with the trading post.

xiv.7136:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

xiv.7136:

It’s kind of interesting.

Just like real life.

If anything, more people should play GW2, understand its economy – and perhaps gain wisdom about real life they would not otherwise have.

Eh, no…A fantasy game where the end goal is to end a dragon’s life should NOT emulate real life. People play games to enjoy a “seperate” life. If you want the life simulator, play the Sims, or games similar to that. It should never be a job or a chore to achieve anything in a video game. And please do not confuse job/chore with challenge, as challenge is fine…as long as it doesn’t require you to make real life a second to the priority of obtaining an item in any game.

Here’s what’s really going to blow your mind.

Even in a high fantasy setting, people who aren’t fighting dragons or fighting wars against the undead will trade. Trading is an activity as old as human history. And where there are traders, there are market manipulators.

Even during famines, during plagues, during wars, even during dragon and undead invasions – the market remains.

And that’s a very real lesson for real life

This does not blow my mind. What does, however, is that so many players are complacent with the market as it is -only- until they need something that is ridiculously overpriced. I’m aware that in real life there is exchange of money/service. There should be in game as well, but it should be regulated, as it’s much easier to do so. Increase supply to lower demand, in turn lowering prices. I know this is not in their business model, as it became evident when the November 15th patch hit, but it just does not benefit new players in -any- way to have a market system that’s dominated by the few that can afford to set prices for everything. I couldn’t care less about spending money in the gem shop to convert to gold, nor do I care for the “Elite” items such as Legendaries or Ascended gear. What I do care about is balance, and it’s very clear that financially for most players, the balance is heavily decided by the market tycoons. It’s just a turn off to see a T2 crafting material going for multiple silver, when to levels appropriate to craft that, a few silver is a bank account.

I find this games economy one of the best around. It seems as long as I do something I will always earn gold.

You don’t need gold other than gear, and I’ll be honest with you. I still have rares and GREENS in level 22 fractals.

is it that wow/rift etc have auction houses per server and this game has a global one the fact that manipulation is more prevalent?

For me, it’s the fact that when I hit 80 months ago if I couldn’t get something through a drop/loot; I could go to the TP and buy an item/s at reasonable prices. Reasonable is relative because a casual player that doesn’t run dungeons doesn’t have a lot of gold.
Back then I would need to buy 2 powerful blood to finish up the beserker set I was crafting or a couple of extra ecto I couldn’t get while salvaging the stuff I got from map completion. Then an ecto was 13s. Now the economy is tied to ecto prices.
I think it’s the loot rate that ‘forces’ people to turn to the TP whereas before they could realistically get the items themselves in a short period of time. And that feeling of being forced to pay high prices for items because they are no longer reliably coming from their source is disappointing.
Sure no one twists an arm but when you are short a couple of pieces of armor for a set you’re crafting, instead of waiting a week to finish it off (1hr day or less play time)… Well the choice is clear you either wait until you get really lucky or pay.
Loot/drops go down and respectively TP prices go up. However the gold that people make from loot is also dropping due to the loot going down.
This is purely from a casual player’s perspective. It is rumored that dungeons are much more profitable than running around the open world so YMMV

xiv.7136:

cNcHellShadow.7691:

xiv.7136:

It’s kind of interesting.

Just like real life.

If anything, more people should play GW2, understand its economy – and perhaps gain wisdom about real life they would not otherwise have.

Eh, no…A fantasy game where the end goal is to end a dragon’s life should NOT emulate real life. People play games to enjoy a “seperate” life. If you want the life simulator, play the Sims, or games similar to that. It should never be a job or a chore to achieve anything in a video game. And please do not confuse job/chore with challenge, as challenge is fine…as long as it doesn’t require you to make real life a second to the priority of obtaining an item in any game.

Here’s what’s really going to blow your mind.

Even in a high fantasy setting, people who aren’t fighting dragons or fighting wars against the undead will trade. Trading is an activity as old as human history. And where there are traders, there are market manipulators.

Even during famines, during plagues, during wars, even during dragon and undead invasions – the market remains.

And that’s a very real lesson for real life

And? In a realistic setting, in the situation we have now in Tyria, most of the players should be working extremely hard just to be able to eat something on the next day. That would have been an even better lesson for real life, yet for some reason noone wants to experience that in MMO games.

There are some RL lessons that we’d really, really want to go without in virtual settings.

Market manipulators…

I wouldn’t care if I wasn’t forced to use the TP to trade with people. In any other game, I can directly trade and not have to deal with such manipulators. But in GW2, not being able to directly trade forces everyone to use market value on items, which makes it very enticing for people to try and manipulate the market.

But if I want to sell you an item for some price other than what’s on the TP, I’ve either got to trust that you’ll mail me the funds when I mail you the item, or put it on the TP and hope you’re the one who gets to it first, and not one of the manipulators.

Moreover, I’ve got no evidence for this, but logic tells me that many of said manipulators are of the Chinese Gold Seller variety.

ArenaNet: Please Implement Direct Trading between players! Stop forcing us to use the Trading Post where prices may be driven by manipulators!

It sounds to me like most people in this thread understand that it’s the drop rate that is the problem, and I still don’t understand how traders are somehow implicated in that. Would it be easier to get the components of a legendary if there was some kind of ANet enforced price ceiling on those components? I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t, since while it would be easier to buy for the first person to come across the deal, the supply wouldn’t be any greater, and there wouldn’t be any on the market at all most of the time, at any price. The only way to truly lower the price would be to increase the drop rate.

Clark Skinner.4902:

People spread lies to make prices shift so that they can buy/sell for profit.

This only hurts other players who imagine themselves traders, not regular players who just sell their loot and buy their gear off the TP. Who would buy up stacks of some overpriced good on a rumor other than another, less skilled trader?

Clark Skinner.4902:

Also, it results in more wealth removed from the game due to fees. There are more than enough gold sinks making us poor, and for the rich to remove 30g from fellow players to keep 15g for themselves is not good.

But when they pay the gold sink, they pay only their own gold. It’s not like they’re stealing someone else’s gold to pay it. And the value of the gold is determined (very, very roughly) by the ratio of gold to items. When a gold sink is paid, the total gold in the economy goes down. The spender has less gold, but each piece of gold held by another player is worth just a little bit more. The only way they could reduce everyone else’s wealth is buy making NEW gold from nothing, adding money to the economy (which is one major way we get screwed by financial elites in the real world).

Clark Skinner.4902:

The other case with rich people buy all of a certain item up and reposting them all for a higher price just makes an insanely rich person richer and they leech from the rest of us. If you have that much gold, you could stop using the TP completely and still never spend it all. The game to them is hoarding as much gold as possible, which is sinister considering it doesn’t do them any good but does the rest of the players bad.

The solution to this problem is very, very easy. Instead of buying from him, sell to him. When some idiot attempts this (I honestly don’t see how it can work in this environment) all you have to do is change your gameplay so you get more of this overpriced item, and cash in on it while it lasts. Enough people do this, and the idiot who attempted this will likely find himself selling it back LOWER than he got it for, ultimately.

You know, is there a big trader out there who wants to prove my point? (I’ll do it myself, once I’m a big trader… but I’m not yet.) I would seriously give this guy the money he thinks he needs to corner a particular market, and watch as he fails, just to prove a point.

Chuo.4238:

ArenaNet: Please Implement Direct Trading between players! Stop forcing us to use the Trading Post where prices may be driven by manipulators!

I have absolutely no problem with this, though I think you’ll find that the result would be that the most expensive things disappear from the market entirely, as the high value items are marketed directly to a small but wealthy clientele, rather than on the TP.

The TP is just one way to get an item – it’s fast and convenient, but not always the cheapest.

If you don’t like the price of something, there is almost always another way to obtain the item, or at least a substitute.

I keep seeing these kinds of threads and it just seems to me that some people see sinister market manipulators under every rock and around every dark corner when in actuality, the supply and demand for many items is interconnected (ie: T5 Mats are closely tied to Ecto, etc) and dynamic.

When Silver Doubloons were spiking up to a price range I didn’t like, I did research to see if there was another way to get them – transmutation, farming, lootbags, etc. I ended up making 200 Silver Doubloons in the Mystic Forge – I saved some money but it was very satisfying to know that I could find other options.

I wonder if a bit more creative thinking might get people further than a forum lament?

Chuo.4238:

Market manipulators…

I wouldn’t care if I wasn’t forced to use the TP to trade with people. In any other game, I can directly trade and not have to deal with such manipulators. But in GW2, not being able to directly trade forces everyone to use market value on items, which makes it very enticing for people to try and manipulate the market.

But if I want to sell you an item for some price other than what’s on the TP, I’ve either got to trust that you’ll mail me the funds when I mail you the item, or put it on the TP and hope you’re the one who gets to it first, and not one of the manipulators.

Moreover, I’ve got no evidence for this, but logic tells me that many of said manipulators are of the [edited for decency by Dreamslayer] Gold Seller variety.

ArenaNet: Please Implement Direct Trading between players! Stop forcing us to use the Trading Post where prices may be driven by manipulators!

It’s interesting that your “logic” tells you so much about the nationality or ethnicity of people you suspect are doing something for which you have no evidence.

Yet, “logic” would suggest that since there was a direct trading option in Guild Wars 1, but that feature is not in Guild Wars 2, that this is by design, and not oversight.

One thing I really like about GW2 is that there is very little chat spam because there is no secure way to trade with strangers. I trade with my dad and my cousin all the time – but of course I don’t worry about being scammed by my family and you don’t have to see me spamming “WTB 5000 Pebbles – 14c ea – over by Lion statue”

Rainzar.6905:

is it that wow/rift etc have auction houses per server and this game has a global one the fact that manipulation is more prevalent?

Its due, to the fact that there is no History of transactions in game like like there is on the AH of other games. Due to the lack of information manipulation becomes so much easier.

Kopipoki.3542:

Its due, to the fact that there is no History of transactions in game like like there is on the AH of other games. Due to the lack of information manipulation becomes so much easier.

This is an interesting point. I haven’t played much WoW, and when I did, it was always a free trial (that ultimately bored me), so I never saw how the interface worked. The exchange on STO had no history that I ever found, but I never really got into trading on STO. But if only for my own curiosity, I’d love to see something like that in GW2. Admittedly, it does raise the personal skill requirements if the game doesn’t have that (you have to track prices yourself), and I’m never allowed to a system that allows the exceptional to shine (so long as it doesn’t allow them to hurt others in doing so… unless, of course, the game is about that) but I’m lazy. I’d rather they did it for me. :p

Tarvok.4206:

Kopipoki.3542:

Its due, to the fact that there is no History of transactions in game like like there is on the AH of other games. Due to the lack of information manipulation becomes so much easier.

This is an interesting point. I haven’t played much WoW, and when I did, it was always a free trial (that ultimately bored me), so I never saw how the interface worked. The exchange on STO had no history that I ever found, but I never really got into trading on STO. But if only for my own curiosity, I’d love to see something like that in GW2. Admittedly, it does raise the personal skill requirements if the game doesn’t have that (you have to track prices yourself), and I’m never allowed to a system that allows the exceptional to shine (so long as it doesn’t allow them to hurt others in doing so… unless, of course, the game is about that) but I’m lazy. I’d rather they did it for me. :p

There are websites that help with this kind of thing. Gw2spidy.com guildwarstrade.com and others like tpcalc.com is really helpful as well. if your on them enough you can actually see the price manipulation happening in real time.

Kopipoki.3542:

Tarvok.4206:

Kopipoki.3542:

Its due, to the fact that there is no History of transactions in game like like there is on the AH of other games. Due to the lack of information manipulation becomes so much easier.

This is an interesting point. I haven’t played much WoW, and when I did, it was always a free trial (that ultimately bored me), so I never saw how the interface worked. The exchange on STO had no history that I ever found, but I never really got into trading on STO. But if only for my own curiosity, I’d love to see something like that in GW2. Admittedly, it does raise the personal skill requirements if the game doesn’t have that (you have to track prices yourself), and I’m never allowed to a system that allows the exceptional to shine (so long as it doesn’t allow them to hurt others in doing so… unless, of course, the game is about that) but I’m lazy. I’d rather they did it for me. :p

There are websites that help with this kind of thing. Gw2spidy.com guildwarstrade.com and others like tpcalc.com is really helpful as well. if your on them enough you can actually see the price manipulation happening in real time.

Those sites have delays (spidy only updates once an hour for example) so not real time. A lot of what people call manipulation is supply/demand watching spidy and you’ll see a spike in price but also a decrease in total units for sale. It can really only be called manipulation (and even then not 100% since new supply can exist) when the price spikes but the total units for sale is relatively the same.

For a game as complex as GW2 I’m still amazed by how little data arenanet shares about the TP. Anonymous trades, no trade volume data published and no disclosure on the amount of gem/gold conversions done. Knowing any of these things would allow most people to have some idea of what’s going on in the economy.

cNcHellShadow.7691:

A fantasy game where the end goal is to end a dragon’s life should NOT emulate real life. People play games to enjoy a “seperate” life. If you want the life simulator, play the Sims, or games similar to that. It should never be a job or a chore to achieve anything in a video game.

While I agree with this sentiment, I believe that any game which has even a semblance of a “free” market will be manipulated by clever, ruthless mathematicians who don’t care how much you’re forced to pay for your goods.

Clark Skinner.4902:

People spread lies to make prices shift so that they can buy/sell for profit.

Their profit come from other players via dishonesty. Not friendly behaviour.

Also, it results in more wealth removed from the game due to fees. There are more than enough gold sinks making us poor, and for the rich to remove 30g from fellow players to keep 15g for themselves is not good.

The other case with rich people buy all of a certain item up and reposting them all for a higher price just makes an insanely rich person richer and they leech from the rest of us. If you have that much gold, you could stop using the TP completely and still never spend it all. The game to them is hoarding as much gold as possible, which is sinister considering it doesn’t do them any good but does the rest of the players bad.

“for the rich to remove 30g from fellow players to keep 15g for themselves is not good.”

people like things now not later. that “rich person” is doing you a favor, he is keeping the buy now and sell now prices within 30%. If the market were stable without him, then he wouldn’t be able to make a profit. Fact is buyers don’t want to sit around being out bid and sellers don’t want to be undersold. From my observation of the market, the main people waiting with buy and sell orders are the “evil market manipulators”. Without them you would see larger margins and higher costs for buying or selling now. The markets would also be much more volatile.

Cirroq.2531:

For a game as complex as GW2 I’m still amazed by how little data arenanet shares about the TP. Anonymous trades, no trade volume data published and no disclosure on the amount of gem/gold conversions done. Knowing any of these things would allow most people to have some idea of what’s going on in the economy.

FWIW, http://www.gw2spidy.com/

Not a complete solution, but does provide an insight into volumes.

Occupy TP! We are the 99% #SWAG #YOLO

DryHumour.1307:

Cirroq.2531:

For a game as complex as GW2 I’m still amazed by how little data arenanet shares about the TP. Anonymous trades, no trade volume data published and no disclosure on the amount of gem/gold conversions done. Knowing any of these things would allow most people to have some idea of what’s going on in the economy.

FWIW, http://www.gw2spidy.com/

Not a complete solution, but does provide an insight into volumes.

Anets economist Smith said spidey updates kinda slow-ish and the actual volumes are in some cases quite higher.

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Ah, so it is manipulated then. Thanks for confirming.

Follow up question: who decides the standard for the appropriate level of manipulation?

Everyone talks about a ‘free market’ and ‘supply and demand’ as if these rational market forces should necessarily exist in this game. ANet is god in this world. If a problem occurs with another aspect of the game they step in and fix it. Why can’t ANet simply step in and determine the extent to which Legendaries are obtainable? These items were pitched with the idea that it would be a ‘legendary’ adventure involved with obtaining one. Was this their plan? We are currently confined to the forces of either extreme luck or the whims of the wealthy to obtain a precursor.

Edit: I just reread this and boy does it sound negative. I absolutely love this game and that’s why I am passionate about this topic. I hope ANet will continue to improve the great game they have made by resolving this issue. Have a nice day.

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

As a salesman (myself), gotta love how he says “by wide margin”.
So there IS manipulation, but it isn’t “wide”.

Ok, let’s narrow it down then.

All inconsistent unfarmable items are manipulated.
Everything else is fine.
So we’re dealing with a massive fluctuation on certain groups of items.

Good job getting out of that one dev, dig a deeper hole will ya.

Dreamslayer.7659:

The TP is just one way to get an item – it’s fast and convenient, but not always the cheapest.

For the most part it is the only logical/sensible way to get items; and this is wrong. Sure, it creates shortcuts for gaining particular items if one feels lazy to obtain them via the game. However, it should not encourage the player to use it constantly; otherwise you will get market manipulation.

Overall, more item dropping in the game world will results in less market manipulations. Although, it may impact on how much $$$ ANet makes out of this. This is fair, however, a balance is crucial. At the moment the TP is out of balance and being manipulated in several areas.

Because of the global nature of the TP, any market manipulation in this game is usually of short term duration.

A good example of this is the “pump and dump” threads that pop up every now and then, where a poster tries to convince people to buy a commodity in anticipation of a future price rise while already holding a large stock of that commodity ready to dump on the market once people start trying to get in on “the next best thing”.

Price-fixing on low-supply/high demand items is slightly different, and probably not as widespread as people seem to believe it is. A precursor does not have better stats than any other exotic, so no one is actually forced to pay the higher prices that are being asked for a precursor. If precursors are still selling at the higher price, it means there are people willing to pay the asking price even if you aren’t. You also have the option of putting in a buy offer for the value that you are prepared to pay, maybe someone will decide to sell you one for that price, or maybe someone else will offer more than you are offering.

I don’t know of any other markets where price fixing may be occuring… possibly in some of the rarer exotics with desirable skins, but from my experience it’s not happening with crafting materials (including T6 mats and lodestones).

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

In WoW you can raid to get something equivalent to the best on the trading post (in a predictable way – double-digit% drop rate off a specific raid boss, or tokens that took approximately 2 weeks to acquire), and their legendaries are associated with actual player experience.

Thus, the price of endgame materials on their auction houses seldomly exceeds about 2x the average newly capped toon’s wallet. (and that’s only for exceedingly high demand items — like weapons or armor universally useful to at least half the specs in the game, and with capped stats in combinations not found on boss loot tables)

Compare this to precursors.

I believe I’ve proven this very wrong.

Reminds me of the “mission accomplished” sign back in 2003.

plasmacutter.2709:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

In WoW you can raid to get something equivalent to the best on the trading post (in a predictable way – double-digit% drop rate off a specific raid boss, or tokens that took approximately 2 weeks to acquire), and their legendaries are associated with actual player experience.

Thus, the price of endgame materials on their auction houses seldomly exceeds about 2x the average newly capped toon’s wallet. (and that’s only for exceedingly high demand items — like weapons or armor universally useful to at least half the specs in the game, and with capped stats in combinations not found on boss loot tables)

Compare this to precursors.

I believe I’ve proven this very wrong.

Reminds me of the “mission accomplished” sign back in 2003.

In WoW, some servers had cartels running sections of the market in consumables. I know of one such cartel that was running the AH market for gems on their server. You could argue that this sort of activity was detrimental to a larger proportion of the player base than the cost of what is essentially a part of the “ulimate” cosmetic items in the game.

I’m not sure you have proven him wrong…

Astraea.6075:

plasmacutter.2709:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

In WoW you can raid to get something equivalent to the best on the trading post (in a predictable way – double-digit% drop rate off a specific raid boss, or tokens that took approximately 2 weeks to acquire), and their legendaries are associated with actual player experience.

Thus, the price of endgame materials on their auction houses seldomly exceeds about 2x the average newly capped toon’s wallet. (and that’s only for exceedingly high demand items — like weapons or armor universally useful to at least half the specs in the game, and with capped stats in combinations not found on boss loot tables)

Compare this to precursors.

I believe I’ve proven this very wrong.

Reminds me of the “mission accomplished” sign back in 2003.

In WoW, some servers had cartels running sections of the market in consumables. I know of one such cartel that was running the AH market for gems on their server. You could argue that this sort of activity was detrimental to a larger proportion of the player base than the cost of what is essentially a part of the “ulimate” cosmetic items in the game.

I’m not sure you have proven him wrong…

Any server where the gem market can be manipulated by a cartel was a dead server.

Gems in wow had an obscenely high supply (you could buy them with badges), and any market manipulation would immediately be spoiled on even a modestly populated realm by people posting at a lower price.

when I played on a moderately populated realm, cut gems were always selling at near-zero-margin profits, sometimes negative-margin, which would be expected in a “perfectly competitive” to “hyper-perfectly-competitive”(only possible in a game) market.

You can’t cite anomalies associated with a dying server’s economy as “the norm”.

plasmacutter.2709:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

In WoW you can raid to get something equivalent to the best on the trading post (in a predictable way – double-digit% drop rate off a specific raid boss, or tokens that took approximately 2 weeks to acquire), and their legendaries are associated with actual player experience.

Thus, the price of endgame materials on their auction houses seldomly exceeds about 2x the average newly capped toon’s wallet. (and that’s only for exceedingly high demand items — like weapons or armor universally useful to at least half the specs in the game, and with capped stats in combinations not found on boss loot tables)

Compare this to precursors.

I believe I’ve proven this very wrong.

Reminds me of the “mission accomplished” sign back in 2003.

Vanilla WoW: Pristine hide of the beast and Foror’s compendium on Dragon Slaying beg to differ. These were prohibitively expensive to players without a guild to back them. Crafting materials weren’t better, for example Water Essences, Arcanite Bars and Nexus Crystals.

Some of that stuff was almost required as a precursor to raiding, Arcanite reaper for warriors, pristine hide for crit mages/locks and Foror’s for every single tank.

Not to mention a newly capped toon was looking towards a 900g grind for his epic mount….

Compared to precursors which are entirely optional …
Your post is factually incorrect.

marnick.4305:

plasmacutter.2709:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

In WoW you can raid to get something equivalent to the best on the trading post (in a predictable way – double-digit% drop rate off a specific raid boss, or tokens that took approximately 2 weeks to acquire), and their legendaries are associated with actual player experience.

Thus, the price of endgame materials on their auction houses seldomly exceeds about 2x the average newly capped toon’s wallet. (and that’s only for exceedingly high demand items — like weapons or armor universally useful to at least half the specs in the game, and with capped stats in combinations not found on boss loot tables)

Compare this to precursors.

I believe I’ve proven this very wrong.

Reminds me of the “mission accomplished” sign back in 2003.

Vanilla WoW: Pristine hide of the beast and Foror’s compendium on Dragon Slaying beg to differ. These were prohibitively expensive to players without a guild to back them. Crafting materials weren’t better, for example Water Essences, Arcanite Bars and Nexus Crystals.

Some of that stuff was almost required as a precursor to raiding, Arcanite reaper for warriors, pristine hide for crit mages/locks and Foror’s for every single tank.

Not to mention a newly capped toon was looking towards a 900g grind for his epic mount….

Compared to precursors which are entirely optional …
Your post is factually incorrect.

So you’re comparing 2013 GW2 economy to 2005 vanilla wow economy, conveniently ignoring the economic improvements I detailed which came in ensuing expansions.

AFTER vanilla (burning crusade), they increased the sources in the way I mentioned in my post (and adjustments were made in minor cycles going beyond that as well — endgame crafting mats were made available for badges, and then even honor, to cap how high they could be manipulated), but do conveniently and intellectually-dishonestly ignore that fact.

So, please explain to me why ANet in 2013 is choosing to make mistakes rectified by blizzard, the least imaginative gaming house, 7 years earlier?

Cain.1278:

Ah, so it is manipulated then. Thanks for confirming.

Of course it is, as is every market. You are manipulating the market if you offer an item at 1c less than the competition. “Manipulating the market” is essentially what every actor in the market does.

The real question is to what extent a single actor can influence the mass-manipulation-fest we call market for his advantage. And here I agree with John Smiths assessment that the GW2 market seems to be pretty resilient to that sort of manipulation.

~MRA

plasmacutter.2709:

So you’re comparing 2013 GW2 economy to 2005 vanilla wow economy, conveniently ignoring the economic improvements I detailed which came in ensuing expansions.

In Vanilla there was an active crafting market with unique recipes that could craft interesting stuff outside dungeons. Crafting was at its best in Vanilla which is why I took it as an example.
Crafting in TBC and WotLK revolved around BOP recipes. The markets were a disaster because not a single recipe was profitable. There were far less unique or rare recipes compared to Vanilla.

AFTER vanilla (burning crusade), they increased the sources in the way I mentioned in my post (and adjustments were made in minor cycles going beyond that as well — endgame crafting mats were made available for badges, and then even honor, to cap how high they could be manipulated), but do conveniently and intellectually-dishonestly ignore that fact.

After Vanilla they destroyed all the flavor crafting had and took away the cool and fun recipes. They might as well have removed all crafting from the game. Even the Engineering chopper was mostly based on vendor items so there wasn’t even any profit margin …

So, please explain to me why ANet in 2013 is choosing to make mistakes rectified by blizzard, the least imaginative gaming house, 7 years earlier?

Quite the opposite. I don’t want A.net to make the same mistakes Blizzard made in the last 7 years. Crafting in Vanilla WoW was interesting and profitable with several recipes that couldn’t be found in dungeons. For the sake of comparison, I take the best moment of crafting in WoW which is Vanilla.

marnick.4305:

plasmacutter.2709:

So you’re comparing 2013 GW2 economy to 2005 vanilla wow economy, conveniently ignoring the economic improvements I detailed which came in ensuing expansions.

In Vanilla there was an active crafting market with unique recipes that could craft interesting stuff outside dungeons. Crafting was at its best in Vanilla which is why I took it as an example.
Crafting in TBC and WotLK revolved around BOP recipes. The markets were a disaster because not a single recipe was profitable. There were far less unique or rare recipes compared to Vanilla.

AFTER vanilla (burning crusade), they increased the sources in the way I mentioned in my post (and adjustments were made in minor cycles going beyond that as well — endgame crafting mats were made available for badges, and then even honor, to cap how high they could be manipulated), but do conveniently and intellectually-dishonestly ignore that fact.

After Vanilla they destroyed all the flavor crafting had and took away the cool and fun recipes. They might as well have removed all crafting from the game. Even the Engineering chopper was mostly based on vendor items so there wasn’t even any profit margin …

So, please explain to me why ANet in 2013 is choosing to make mistakes rectified by blizzard, the least imaginative gaming house, 7 years earlier?

Quite the opposite. I don’t want A.net to make the same mistakes Blizzard made in the last 7 years. Crafting in Vanilla WoW was interesting and profitable with several recipes that couldn’t be found in dungeons. For the sake of comparison, I take the best moment of crafting in WoW which is Vanilla.

The spoiler factor here which you are not mentioning, and which led to crafting in WoW becoming unprofitable was not the cost of mats, or the corrective actions I detailed above to fix the horrendous supply, it was the fact that crafting ceased to be about producing competitive gear (though it still did produce it), and became focused on stat boosts only attainable by becoming a max-level crafter (people were no longer crafting on profit margins, but buying skill points to get the crafting stat bonuses – this turned the merchants into the customers).

This stat bonus factor for crafting is not there in gw2

Before the introduction of stat bonuses for crafting (first the BoP gear, then straight-up stat bonuses), crafting remained profitable because anything that became more expensive to craft than to sell was simply not crafted.

Thus, Stopping market manipulation of materials (a precursor is also a material as much as an elaborate totem or lodestone) by adding different and more predictable supply points to keep their prices capped does not do anything to prevent crafting from being profitable, in fact it does quite the opposite.

Making competitive items less expensive to craft is not the death of crafting in GW2.

Tarvok.4206:

Hey, I’m curious about something. For those of you who feel the activities of active traders is negatively impacting your game… what exactly is it that you’re doing that is being impacted by this activity? I only ask because I honestly can’t figure out what the TP is for for those of us who’d rather avoid that sort of thing, given there are supplies of very good items that have nothing to do with it (karma, tokens, etc).

While I dont feel bad about traders, with the exception of those who attempt to monopolize some markets within TP, but I can tell you what the problem is. Low drop rates for commonly required materials, like precursors or lodestones.

Say what you want about them being only skins/having same stats as other weapons. The problem is not that some few unique items are rare, but the fact that whole tier of side-grades is artificially unobtainable through normal gameplay. Nobody is going to farm 250 charged lodestones for infinite light, especially with scarcity of mobs that drop it, the fact that those mobs are gated, extremely low drop rate and stupid DR.

And since they cannot be obtained through normal gameplay, they have to be obtained through TP. Which vast majority of players do not want to do. Your average Joe wants to touch TP only to get some consumables fast, and some odd item occasionally. But for that whole tier of side-grades he is forced to do something he doesnt want to (TP), and by association he feels bad about traders.

A lot of people complain about T6 materials drop rate but there are other ways to get them and when you do start to use these ways you’ll find out that getting 250 vials of Powerful Blood is not that hard nor expensive.
I am not saying there is no market manipulation in GW2. Of course there is and it was in every other MMO I’ve ever played. Unique construction of GW2 TP not allows for manipulation to reach a really uncomfortable level.
There are two sides of the coins. People who selling precursors at 550ish gold and people who are willing to pay that amount to get one. If “the manipulators” are getting
their stuff sold for the asking price they will keep selling for that price. Simple like that.
My quest for Legendary weapon has thought me a lot by this game, how to save money in it, how to get what I want by using different or alternative approach and how to make big gold.
Based on that knowledge I think that the price of some materials (even precursors) is high, yes, but you can still turn it into a profit and get what you want with easy. My income is roughly 20g a day and it could be much, much higher. Just learn the game and use that knowledge to your advantage.

Rogacz.9865:

Tarvok.4206:

Hey, I’m curious about something. For those of you who feel the activities of active traders is negatively impacting your game… what exactly is it that you’re doing that is being impacted by this activity? I only ask because I honestly can’t figure out what the TP is for for those of us who’d rather avoid that sort of thing, given there are supplies of very good items that have nothing to do with it (karma, tokens, etc).

While I dont feel bad about traders, with the exception of those who attempt to monopolize some markets within TP, but I can tell you what the problem is. Low drop rates for commonly required materials, like precursors or lodestones.

Say what you want about them being only skins/having same stats as other weapons. The problem is not that some few unique items are rare, but the fact that whole tier of side-grades is artificially unobtainable through normal gameplay. Nobody is going to farm 250 charged lodestones for infinite light, especially with scarcity of mobs that drop it, the fact that those mobs are gated, extremely low drop rate and stupid DR.

And since they cannot be obtained through normal gameplay, they have to be obtained through TP. Which vast majority of players do not want to do. Your average Joe wants to touch TP only to get some consumables fast, and some odd item occasionally. But for that whole tier of side-grades he is forced to do something he doesnt want to (TP), and by association he feels bad about traders.

Exactly.

Markets become competitive and serve consumers only when they allow easy entry of new suppliers of a good.

If you add new and more predictable sources of the items currently overpriced and arguably manipulated, by either increasing drop rates significantly, puttting them on token/karma vendors, or both, you introduce those new suppliers, and the price will reach more accessible levels.

There are two sides of the coins. People who selling precursors at 550ish gold and people who are willing to pay that amount to get one. If “the manipulators” are getting
their stuff sold for the asking price they will keep selling for that price. Simple like that.

The average price of a house in the bay area is approximately 700,000 dollars (7 times that of the equivalent in the rest of middle-america.. if you don’t want to live in a demilitarized zone resembling the dystopian future in freejack).

The average income of a person in the bay area is NOT 7 times the median income of middle-america.

Just because the houses sell, does not mean the market is not dysfunctional.

Every month it seems there are articles lamenting that the vast majority of bay-area 20-somethings that should be settling down in their homes to raise families are still with their parents, because they can’t afford a home, or are struggling to pay 2k rents, because the prevailing mortgage rate, credit requirements, and required down payments are that frekin’ high, allowing renters to utterly gouge.

Just because some people are paying the obscene prices does not make a price-fixed economy justified, and does not change the fact that the victims of such manipulation are not just those who can and do end up paying more, but those who go unserved because they simply can’t afford the gouged price.

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Ah, for the very first time that I know off, Anet admits that there is indeed manipulation going on.

Next step: make them see how wide spread it is!

Final step: do something.

Unless, as mentioned before, these manipulated prices are okay for Anet, because it forces people to buy gold -mostly with gems, I hope- and thus lets Anet make more money.

Tallis.5607:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Ah, for the very first time that I know off, Anet admits that there is indeed manipulation going on.

Next step: make them see how wide spread it is!

Final step: do something.

Unless, as mentioned before, these manipulated prices are okay for Anet, because it forces people to buy gold -mostly with gems, I hope- and thus lets Anet make more money.

You’re stating that as if it were a problem that GW2 has the least manipulation of any MMO. There’s nothing to be done.

The gem conspiracy has been beaten to death, but is actually not relevant for the discussion. You can make 2-4 gold per hour by playing the game. Stuff that’s expensive is just a long term goal, no gems necessary.

Firegoth.6427:

Good job getting out of that one dev, dig a deeper hole will ya.

It’s not wide, but it is goes all the way to the bottom!

GW2 TP is the best among any other TP (AH) of MMORPG’s I’ve played
the main reason is that it is global so when you have one dead server the economy isnt dead on that server

MRA.4758:

The real question is to what extent a single actor can influence the mass-manipulation-fest we call market for his advantage. And here I agree with John Smiths assessment that the GW2 market seems to be pretty resilient to that sort of manipulation.

~MRA

It’s resilient because it has employed Mr. DR to manage its bank accounts.

A single ‘actor’ can infact be a group working together. A single person would not be able to manipulate the market to a large extend (unless that person was a millionaire), however, a “mafia” type group could potentially do so.

Svarty.8019:

Firegoth.6427:

Good job getting out of that one dev, dig a deeper hole will ya.

It’s not wide, but it is goes all the way to the bottom!

Stop using youtube, they’re hollywood stooges and are now applying region restrictions to videos.

plasmacutter.2709:

Svarty.8019:

Firegoth.6427:

Good job getting out of that one dev, dig a deeper hole will ya.

It’s not wide, but it is goes all the way to the bottom!

Stop using youtube, they’re hollywood stooges and are now applying region restrictions to videos.

Welcome to the internet, good sir.