Guild Wars 2

Broken forums are broken.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If they were separate pieces, then it seems they would be set up to mix and match within the different outfits. But they can’t. Each is a standalone set.

The way dyes are applied to outfits is a good point, but I remain unconvinced that this is necessarily how outfits are set up on the back end. On the old armor sets that were converted into outfits, gloves can be hidden. This suggests that the outfit system has at least been designed to handle these exceptions and perhaps even still treats the skins as separate pieces. In the same way the ability to hide specific pieces of an outfit could be predefined, so too could the dye channels be designed to automatically apply to multiple pieces of “separate” armors skins. Without first-hand knowledge of the back end, this could go either way.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Guhracie.3419:

As far as I’m aware, each of the three armor types use a different mesh, and I’m pretty sure outfits use a fourth.

A dev has more or less stated this outright, I believe…

If you happen to remember when/where this was said, I’d be really interested to see this. This discussion over outfits v armor sets keeps popping up, and confirming that there are in fact technical limitations to the outfit system that would make this proposed compromise unfeasible could finally put this argument to bed.

Elestian.6134:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If they were separate pieces, then it seems they would be set up to mix and match within the different outfits. But they can’t. Each is a standalone set.

The way dyes are applied to outfits is a good point, but I remain unconvinced that this is necessarily how outfits are set up on the back end. On the old armor sets that were converted into outfits, helmets and gloves can be hidden. This suggests that the outfit system has at least been designed to handle these exceptions and perhaps even still treats the skins as separate pieces. In the same way the ability to hide specific pieces of an outfit could be predefined, so too could the dye channels be designed to automatically apply to multiple pieces of “separate” armors skins. Without first-hand knowledge of the back end, this could go either way.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Guhracie.3419:

As far as I’m aware, each of the three armor types use a different mesh, and I’m pretty sure outfits use a fourth.

A dev has more or less stated this outright, I believe…

If you happen to remember when/where this was said, I’d be really interested to see this. This discussion over outfits v armor sets keeps popping up, and confirming that there are in fact technical limitations to the outfit system that would make this proposed compromise unfeasible could finally put this argument to bed.

This quote is old and it’s mostly talking about town clothes but it says the outfits are like a 4th armor weight and touches on the compatibly between armors.

Source (page 18).
Curtis Johnson
“We do understand and sincerely apologize that there are creative combinations of town clothes that will not exist anymore. Many have asked why remove town clothes as a concept. It boils down to we believe better armor skinning and the outfit system is something we can add more options to more often and will produce a better supported RP game for everyone with more variety in the future. In short, a healthier game.

To expand more on what I mean by better support, It helps if you think of town clothes as a 4th weight class of armor. Clothing was meant to offer visual options that break the class roles, however we were never completely happy with the way it was isolated from the rest of the game and still felt largely the same. Many pieces could have easily been mistaken for light or medium armor. In many ways it was more akin to building an alt character because town-clothes and armor were so separated. Additionally, every time we added something to town-clothes, it didn’t really help someone building their light, medium, or heavy look. And there was no way to add combat gear fairly without creating 3 versions on the back end (light, medium, and heavy). As a customization platform and sustainable expansion design it left a lot to be desired.

When we started looking at bringing more of the clothing back into armor with mix and match styles there are some fundamental incompatible things between weight classes. (part of how we set up every armor to allow many dye channels and styles per piece).. There really is no way at this point over six years since we started development to make absolutely everything work together. So we needed something new to continue to grow in the future.

Outfits give us a way to create highly stylized looks that aren’t constrained to armor slots or weight class. In addition to armor skins that are easier and cheaper to collect across characters and the account dye system we do believe the options across a players whole account are much more attractive now. You’ll see more outfits coming out this summer and additions to the game more often usable by your characters. We try not to allow too much ‘hoarder’ design where we just keep stacking more and more options on leaving lots of unsupported things hanging around. Yes, we do have to give up some of our current closet space and clothing to fit the new wardrobe in. Again, apologies for that.
As always we ask you to try out the new system of customization and see what’s available to you. I think many people will be surprised by how many pieces have become armor compatible. We hope the benefits to the outfit system and wardrobe in terms of future support and additions will be clear, and you can look forward to more new outfits coming very soon."

I hear the pro-Outfit crowd saying that they are nice to use when leveling. Since you are updating your armor so often, you can look good without spending money on Transmutation Charges.

That is also the other positive of Outfits; if you have several of them you can change back and forth (on any character) without that pesky Transmutation cost.

And the detail on the outfits is very high. They put many of our old armors to shame.

Great! Outfits are perfect for folks who want to look respectable, but don’t want to spend money to create an individual look. ANet has fed you very well this past year. Your closet is pretty full, and looks as if it will continue to grow.
______________________________

But there is a large percentage of people who have reached the “endgame”. They aren’t leveling new characters. They are older accounts that have money for transmutation stones. And since there is (sort of) no “gear creep” in GW2, the endgame comes down a lot to skins.

People want to stand out. And while Outfits may look nice, you can’t stand out if you look exactly like everyone else. That is why this topic is popping up more and more lately. More people are reaching the endgame, and looking for a way to be noticed. Outfits don’t fill that need for more than a couple days after they are released.

Armor sets are coming at a snails pace, and we don’t have much to work with anymore. Most of our 2-year old pieces and parts have far less detail than the new Outfits.

Endgame is stagnating for those of us who need to express our individuality as a way to keep our post 80 experience fresh. We just ask a little equal time, and would love some of the highly detailed pieces ANet is making nowadays to work with.

That’s my take on this issue. That is your skin vs. Outfit divide. I truly feel the pro-Outfit crowd is (in general) newer to the game than the pro mix ‘n’ match crowd. It seems reasonable that the old fogies who have seen it all aren’t impressed much by cookie cutter content. We want variety. We need variety. We aren’t getting variety.

Side Note: Many RPers and people with older gold-healthy accounts have multiple armor pieces. We don’t really use Transmutation Charges that often. It isn’t as big a deal as the pro-Outfitters think.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

“When we started looking at bringing more of the clothing back into armor with mix and match styles there are some fundamental incompatible things between weight classes. (part of how we set up every armor to allow many dye channels and styles per piece).. There really is no way at this point over six years since we started development to make absolutely everything work together.”

That’s unfortunately compelling.

It seems to come down to the meaning of “fundamental incompatible things.” I’m unsure if this means something technical on the back end, or how the dye channel tie into this incompatibility.

Lolyta.4582:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Orangensaft.7139:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

rapthorne.7345:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

We are getting free armour sets now, so why complain about them selling outfits?

I’m not?

Sorry if it came out that way, I didn’t mean to sound like you were whining.

All I’m trying to say is that there are people, like me, that love outfits.

But when they are making BOTH armour sets and outfits, what is the problem then?

the problem atm is that they are NOT making these outfits as armorsets too
and thats what we want to change

Sorry, but if there is a market for outfits, they will sell it.

I enjoy outfits.

With respect, I suggest that the only reason “there is a market for outfits” is that we have no other choice to get the look of [insert name of outfit you like here]! Lack of choice is, in fact, one way to drive a market, but it is a method that fails to maximize sales and creates disgruntled customers, which is EXACTLY what we are seeing in this and similar forum threads.

Look at it another way: if [insert name of your favorite outfit here] had been available when you bought it as an armor skin set that you could pick ’n choose which parts you wear and mix ’n match with other armor pieces, would you still have chosen the outfit that offered no flexibility whatsoever as to which pieces you wear and/or mix ’n match?

I submit that armor skin sets would outsell identical-looking outfits EVERY time, even if the armor skin sets cost a few more gems, AND that overall revenues from outfits+armor skins would increase significantly because people who are NOT buying into the inflexibility of outfits (see most of the previous posts in this and similar threads) would jump at the chance to get the look they wanted with mix ’n matchable 6-piece skin sets.

You could say the same thing about armour sets.

I’ve never bought an armour set with real money, because you have to use transmutation charges.

Morsheira.6102:

Actually I am in game right now and I just checked on all the outfits I have and you can only hide the head piece. Infact I’d honestly like many of the outfits more if I could hide the shoulders.

Maybe it varies depending on the outfit, then?

Because I have the Pirate Captain’s Outfit and you can definitely hide the gloves on that.

It’s harder to tell with the shoulders, as it doesn’t really have shoulders, as such.

I just assumed that, if you could hide the head and gloves, you could probably also hide the shoulders.

Orangensaft.7139:

why not both?
i agree with you on this!

everyone happy then
and more profit for anet

Why not both? Because it takes a lot more resources to create six armor pieces with 2-4 dye channels each that look good on 10 different race/gender combinations than it does to create one outfit with only four channels for the same combinations of race/gender. If it were easy to create new designs, I’m sure we’d see them release new sets every month and people would be happier still.

Lolyta.4582:

Look at it another way: if [insert name of your favorite outfit here] had been available when you bought it as an armor skin set that you could pick ’n choose which parts you wear and mix ’n match with other armor pieces, would you still have chosen the outfit that offered no flexibility whatsoever as to which pieces you wear and/or mix ’n match?

I know you’re not asking me but, TBH, I probably would have done, in the case of the Pirate Captain’s outfit.

As I like pretty much all of it, can hide the hat (only reason I don’t wear the hat is that it removes your char’s hair) and gloves (not that I particularly mind the gloves, I just don’t tend to wear gloves unless they’re fingerless) and was specifically looking for something I could dress chars in while levelling, without having to worry about the cost of transmutation charges.

I think the only real downside I found with it is that, when you dye the scarf belt, it also dyes part of the boot.

So, that kind of limits what colour you dye it, as what looks a good colour for a scarf, doesn’t necessarily look a good colour as part of a boot.

The fact that I like all of it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like it if I could also hide more parts (or, more likely, switch them out for other things) and/or only use certain parts, as and when I wanted to, but still.

I think there is definitely a good case for outfits, too – like most things in life, it’s not an either/or situation.

I still can’t wrap my head around why it is so difficult to release the outfits also as armor-sets. Converting them to an armor-set is incredibly easy. I’ve done a similar process multiple times for Oblivion and Skyrim armors.

1. Load the armor-mesh into a 3D-Modeling program (Blender, cause it’s open source and free)
2. For creating a helmet cut away anything that isn’t helmet, for creating a chestplate cut away anything that isn’t chestplate, …
3. Export the new armor-mesh
4. Import the mesh into a program that is capable of editing the flags and other meta-information of the armor-piece (in my case NIF-Scope)
5. Assign the correct outfit-slots, textures, materials, etc to each piece
6. Save and test the result.

Since the outfit is already weighted and skinned there is no more weighting or skinning to do, which saves a lot of work.

Once I knew what I had to do, this process took me about 1h to convert an armor-model that was made from a single mesh into several separate armor-models representing chestplate, shoulderpads, trousers, etc.

You can’t tell me that people who do this stuff for a living are much slower than me. Since there are 6 models to convert (one for each race) this shouldn’t take longer than 6h for a single person.

I agree with the OP; sick of seeing great costume skins to be wasted on… costumes.

The thing that annoy me the most about outfits, is that most of them look so good. I’ve been collecting armor pieces for 2 years, and yet most of them are really ugly. And then I look at outfits, and wonder: why can’t they make armor sets look as good as outfit? Technical limitations? Is GW2 forever doomed to have ugly armor pieces?

BunjiKugashira.9754:

I still can’t wrap my head around why it is so difficult to release the outfits also as armor-sets. Converting them to an armor-set is incredibly easy. I’ve done a similar process multiple times for Oblivion and Skyrim armors.

1. Load the armor-mesh into a 3D-Modeling program (Blender, cause it’s open source and free)
2. For creating a helmet cut away anything that isn’t helmet, for creating a chestplate cut away anything that isn’t chestplate, …
3. Export the new armor-mesh
4. Import the mesh into a program that is capable of editing the flags and other meta-information of the armor-piece (in my case NIF-Scope)
5. Assign the correct outfit-slots, textures, materials, etc to each piece
6. Save and test the result.

Since the outfit is already weighted and skinned there is no more weighting or skinning to do, which saves a lot of work.

Once I knew what I had to do, this process took me about 1h to convert an armor-model that was made from a single mesh into several separate armor-models representing chestplate, shoulderpads, trousers, etc.

You can’t tell me that people who do this stuff for a living are much slower than me. Since there are 6 models to convert (one for each race) this shouldn’t take longer than 6h for a single person.

They are not weighted to the three existing weights. The three existing weights are incompatible for mixing and matching with each other, so you’d have to convert another 3 models. Then you’d have to convert another 6 models for variations between the male and female versions of each armor type, and add 6 more for male and female versions of each race. And then they’d have to work out the issues that come from making something modular: They’re designed as one piece, so the art assets would have to be polished to make them work as solitary pieces. If you cut the shoulders off of the ceremonial outfit, for example, there might simply be nothing underneath. So you’d have to go back and do detailing work that is currently unnecessary. Where do you cut the top of the female version of the ancestral outfit, when the “leggings” were never meant to be seen on their own?

Hamfast.8719:

I hear the pro-Outfit crowd saying that they are nice to use when leveling. Since you are updating your armor so often, you can look good without spending money on Transmutation Charges.

That is also the other positive of Outfits; if you have several of them you can change back and forth (on any character) without that pesky Transmutation cost.

And the detail on the outfits is very high. They put many of our old armors to shame.

Great! Outfits are perfect for folks who want to look respectable, but don’t want to spend money to create an individual look. ANet has fed you very well this past year. Your closet is pretty full, and looks as if it will continue to grow.
______________________________

But there is a large percentage of people who have reached the “endgame”. They aren’t leveling new characters. They are older accounts that have money for transmutation stones. And since there is (sort of) no “gear creep” in GW2, the endgame comes down a lot to skins.

People want to stand out. And while Outfits may look nice, you can’t stand out if you look exactly like everyone else. That is why this topic is popping up more and more lately. More people are reaching the endgame, and looking for a way to be noticed. Outfits don’t fill that need for more than a couple days after they are released.

Armor sets are coming at a snails pace, and we don’t have much to work with anymore. Most of our 2-year old pieces and parts have far less detail than the new Outfits.

Endgame is stagnating for those of us who need to express our individuality as a way to keep our post 80 experience fresh. We just ask a little equal time, and would love some of the highly detailed pieces ANet is making nowadays to work with.

That’s my take on this issue. That is your skin vs. Outfit divide. I truly feel the pro-Outfit crowd is (in general) newer to the game than the pro mix ‘n’ match crowd. It seems reasonable that the old fogies who have seen it all aren’t impressed much by cookie cutter content. We want variety. We need variety. We aren’t getting variety.

Side Note: Many RPers and people with older gold-healthy accounts have multiple armor pieces. We don’t really use Transmutation Charges that often. It isn’t as big a deal as the pro-Outfitters think.

I am pro mix n’match, but I am also pro outfits. As I’ve said in this and other threads on the subject, I’d much rather have access to armor in game and let them sell outfits on the gem store. They’ve released about the same amount of full armor sets in the game itself over the last year as they normally do in the gemstore. And for those who don’t count carapace and lumi as two armor sets, I’ll just point out that the flame sets exist in the gemstore.

ANET, please keep releasing armor sets in the game itself.

Guhracie.3419:

…

They are not weighted to the three existing weights. The three existing weights are incompatible for mixing and matching with each other, so you’d have to convert another 3 models. Then you’d have to convert another 6 models for variations between the male and female versions of each armor type, and add 6 more for male and female versions of each race. And then they’d have to work out the issues that come from making something modular: They’re designed as one piece, so the art assets would have to be polished to make them work as solitary pieces. If you cut the shoulders off of the ceremonial outfit, for example, there might simply be nothing underneath. So you’d have to go back and do detailing work that is currently unnecessary. Where do you cut the top of the female version of the ancestral outfit, when the “leggings” were never meant to be seen on their own?

You clearly haven’t created armor-meshes yourself yet or else you wouldn’t have misunderstood the concept of weighting. When creating an armor you weight parts of the armor against a skeleton. (It’s called skeleton because when you visualize the vectors via straight lines they look like a skeleton. Also those vectors have the same function as bones in a human body: they define the joints and make sure the meshes don’t stretch or bend at places where they shouldn’t.) Weighting has the purpose to make the mesh move together with the skeleton. To achieve that you weight the sleeves against the arm-bones, the torso against a bone called spine, etc. You don’t weight an armor to heavy, med and light. Those are different concepts and have nothing to do with each other.

The game has 6 different races. Let’s say each race has it’s own skeleton. This means that the 6 female versions of an outfit need to be weighted against their respective skeletons and the 6 male versions of an outfit also need to be weighted against their respective skeletons. Since the outfit already exists and moves together with the character, this work has already been done.

About inseperable parts of an outfit: There are already armor-pieces that take up multiple slots. For example when equipping the torso of the female light Sylvari T2 armor it will overwrite whatever shoulders you have equipped. The same could be done for inseperable parts of an outfit.

The most achievable compromise I can see being possible between armour and outfits is to allow toggling between the outfit hat/shoulders/gloves/boots and your armour hat/shoulders/gloves/boots, since these slots don’t use weight specific meshes.

I also want to see more armors instead of outfits and towncloth tonics made into outfits.
But if balthazar was a armor set it would be a heavy armor which means they would have to make dwayna light armor and grenth medium armor to make everyone happy.

yes ..why dont they just release
chest+leg pieces in one (like cof light chest piece armor)
and release helmets, gloves, shoulders and boots as single armor pieces

problem solved

Orangensaft.7139:

yes ..why dont they just release
chest+leg pieces in one (like cof light chest piece armor)
and release helmets, gloves, shoulders and boots as single armor pieces

problem solved

They can’t because of the base system. Just like we can’t mix an armor head piece with an outfit (at this time).

In order for them to make the costumes into armor skins (which could be used across all classes, cause if they were locked to a single weight the outrage would be insane) they would completely need to rework the underlying mesh system used for armors. They’ve already told us about this issue. It’s why we have outfits. It’s why they couldn’t just straight up convert town clothes to armor skins. It’s why we can’t mix armor weights (ie a medium coat and a light skirt). It is a very complex technical limitation. Additionally, this is a core component of the game that we’re asking for an overhaul to. It would take (likely) a great deal of time to rebuild, not even considering any of the additional components it touches that might need overhauling as well.

Time is money. I find it highly unlikely they will go back and change this system unless it would be significantly profitable for them (ie, more profitable than spending time on creating new content).

Another solution would be to allow armour skins and transmutations to ignore armour type completely, so you could skin heavy armour in to light/etc, but still only actually equip heavy armour.

Let players worry about clipping.

Orangensaft.7139:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

We are getting free armour sets now, so why complain about them selling outfits?

because we like the outfit designs but feel like it is wasted awesome design if it cant be mixed and matched!

If you like the outfit designs then go ahead and use them.

As BunjiKugashira already said, it’s easy to separate armor pieces, all weighting is already done anyway, but since outfits doesn’t have any class\race restrictions → more buyers, maybe that’s the point or serious clipping, who knows…anyway I like the idea to look good at low lvls…so why not just make it like this:
1) After buying Armor from Gem Store we get not just outfit but also separated version for mixing.
2) IMHO Heavy Armor Outfits should have Class restriction…Ele in heavy armor could be a bit weird and confusing.

BunjiKugashira.9754:

Some people argue there could be clipping, but seriously: Let the players that like to mix and match watch out for clipping themselves!

You even get clipping with the outfits themselves, so the “no clipping” argument is out the window. Check the female human’s waist with the Ancestral outfit. The cloth that falls down from the breasts clips into the shirt’s material.

http://i.imgur.com/tQGgPZq.jpg

Honestly when I’m mixing and matching I don’t even care about clipping half the time. The only clipping I ever actually see is the hair with some collars, which doesn’t really matter as I can play it off as the hair is falling around the collar, or the like.

Why does everyone assume that outfits would have to be made for every weightclass if they were to be made into armor skins? The noble court outfit is clearly a light armor. Why not just have you unlock the outfit for your account, and the armorskin for the appropriate weightclass. That way the mix and matching can still happen, the outfits have the added bonus of being able to wear heavy armor on a light class and there will be no added problems of the different waist heights.

This way we get armorskins (like the phalanx and phoenix skins, which are just one weightclass) and the outfits, which will please most people i think.

A lot of people seem to assume it has to be an either/or thing, the point of this topic is “why not both?”

Leave outfits in gem store and add new armor as a reward for doing stuff. All problems solved.