Guild Wars 2

Kuruptz.4782:

ppl though yep this recipe anet gave us this one so we can make 200+ gold endless?

From what I understand, even before they shut off the recipe prices were moving towards making it unprofitable.

Dao Jones.6720:

I find it funny that so many people are immediately leaping to the conclusion that ANYONE who used this recipe MUST have known it was an exploit. There’s this tacit assumption that the activity was undertaken purely out of malice, with an aim toward destroying the economy.

Let me offer you a different view.

First, Dantos (who is in this thread) and I are in the same guild. Several of our leadership (including the guild lead) were banned for this crafting incident. Did they exploit this recipe because we are a gaming community full of hackers and cheaters?

No. It’s because we’re a gaming community of casual players.

You see, we don’t play hard enough to get rich. We’re adults, we have jobs and lives; we can’t spend 10 hours a day playing the market. Out of our ~240 members only two of us have Legendary weapons; I’m one of them, and I only have it because most of the guild helped me get the items needed.

When our ONE genuinely skilled market player mentioned this recipe, we discussed it on Mumble. Was it an exploit? It didn’t seem so; it was a crafting recipe, for god’s sake. How could the design team have screwed up something so fundamentally obvious as that? We decided that it was probably a subtle attempt by ANet to deflate the skyrocketing Ectoplasm market; increase supply, decrease cost. (Much like they did with precursors and the Karka event.)

So many of my guildies jumped on this because it was a way to get things like ascended backpacks or legendary pre-reqs that they – as casual players – might never see.

When we learned about the ban, our members were horrified. We genuinely did not know this was an exploit; it had been around for DAYS. There was a POST about it right on these forums! Several of our banned members sent support tickets offering to have their characters rolled back, their gear trashed; whatever. This was not out of shame at “getting caught” – this was genuine regret for the misunderstanding.

What is worse is that ArenaNet’s technical incompetence has cost us our guild. Because our guild leader was banned, and because they have no way to move leadership to a new person we have had our head cut off. We cannot manage our guild properly, so we are forced to continue in a broken guild, or lose our name and influence. That is – in effect – punishing every single member for the actions of a few.

Lastly, I’m sure that a lot of you are eager to assume my guild is full of scummy hackers and exploiters. I’d just like to include an attachment here, which I just screenshotted from our community website. We have what we call the “Ten Commandments” of our community, which are the rules we expect all members to follow or be removed. Feel free to read #1, and tell me you still think their motivation for using this recipe was malice.

Truth is, this was sloppy coding on ANet’s part, followed by a gross overreaction. I understand and fully support their stance against exploiting, as does my gaming community. But this? This was poorly executed, and their doubling down on their stance by labeling my fellow gamers – most of whom are working professionals with families – “economic terrorists” is insulting, childish, and stupid.

did your guild report it?

what i think would be wrong here if this guild has an official answer of Anet like the one in screenshot with no answer or no this is not an exploit they deserve a unban

if they dont Ban THEM even Harder if you find something that can make you VERY rich easily i mean you guys were thinking can this be a exploit? why not ask to be sure to get confirm cause obv you mustve though this has to good to be?

Kuruptz.4782:

wait if this one is so Equally as everything else people claim its

Why the hell do you even use it?

It wasn’t equally in the beginning, when prices of snowflakes were 2s, prices of mithril was 40c, and prices of ectos were 37s.

I was equally after they let it go for 4 days without doing anything and ectos dropped to like 25s, mithril rose to 60c+, and snowflakes were like 30s.

That is called the market correcting itself, what naturally happens in any MMO, including GW2, when they release new recipes. The only people who made 10+g an hour were the ones who go in early, on the first day, not the people who started doing it after it was all over the forums.

The difference between a crafting recipe and something like the 21 karma exploit, is no matter how many 1000s of people trade 21 karma for rares, it will always be 21 karma and the supply will always be infinite.

A crafting recipe using normal materials will eventually correct itself. If they shut off or fix the recipe, the prices of materials will eventually normalize after a few days when ecto supply goes back to normal, and mithril/snowflake demand drops. There is a huge difference between getting cheap items or selling items to vendors for infinite gold, and using a crafting recipe that is subjected to market equilibrium as more and more people find out about it.

The thing is, Anet let it go long that the market eventually reached equilibrium after a bunch of people tried it because of huge threads on these forums and reddit. People like myself, probably tried it <100 times, realized it wasn’t worth the time, and stopped doing it.

The fact that it was a recipe that Anet added, was affected by market rates and didn’t just create gold out of thin air, and wasn’t different then other market altering recipes, really pushes it in terms of permanent bans for an “exploit.”

Now everyone has to be careful, because who knows what recipes Anet is going to add in the future. How are we to know that a new recipe that gets added that turns out to be profitable is an exploit or not? This recipe didn’t create items out of thin air, it created an exchange of 60 mithril and 2 snowflakes, for 7 ectos. It didn’t simply take 1 ecto and suddenly make 10 of them like clueless people like to think.

Strifey.7215:

Kuruptz.4782:

wait if this one is so Equally as everything else people claim its

Why the hell do you even use it?

It wasn’t equally in the beginning, when prices of snowflakes were 2s, prices of mithril was 40c, and prices of ectos were 37s.

I was equally after they let it go for 4 days without doing anything and ectos dropped to like 25s, mithril rose to 60c+, and snowflakes were like 30s.

The thing is, Anet let it go long that the market eventually reached equilibrium after a bunch of people tried it because of huge threads on these forums and reddit. People like myself, probably tried it <100 times, realized it wasn’t worth the time, and stopped doing it.

The fact that it was a recipe that Anet added, was affected by market rates and didn’t just create gold out of thin air, and wasn’t different then other market altering recipes, really pushes it in terms of permanent bans for an “exploit.”

Now everyone has to be careful, because who knows what recipes Anet is going to add in the future. How are we to know that a new recipe that gets added that turns out to be profitable is an exploit or not? This recipe didn’t create items out of thin air, it created an exchange of 60 mithril and 2 snowflakes, for 7 ectos. It didn’t simply take 1 ecto and suddenly make 10 of them like clueless people like to think.

But..

that guild say they were thinking this might be an exploit?

Why would they think that if its NOT That Huge of difference ( i seriously dont like exploiters)

as i said if they got an ss of anet saying dont know or no answer to them stopping after they ask question

Hell Anet its your own fault over there seriously no excuse

( i do belive there is some ppl who did get banned and not knowing this is exploit were 110% clueless but very low and what are anet gonna do let them all go with all that gold? everyone can lie )

Criminals are always going to complain when they get caught. It’s an inherent part of the dishonesty of being a criminal.

Same thing here. Exploiters always complain when they get caught. Most lie through their teeths claiming it was not an exploit or something similar. Most likely don’t understand the kind of negative impact their exploits have in the game, but then again they likely don’t care, so there isn’t much of a point in trying to understand. A few probably don’t understand why what they did was an exploit, but those are actually the worst – people with no sense of what is right and what is wrong.

ArenaNet needs to understand that the vocal minority of banned players (in other words, the very few cheaters who exploited so much to the point that ArenaNet actually took action) should not be allowed to hurt the game for everyone else. Permanently banning all of them is the only good solution.

Strifey.7215:

Kuruptz.4782:

wait if this one is so Equally as everything else people claim its

Why the hell do you even use it?

It wasn’t equally in the beginning, when prices of snowflakes were 2s, prices of mithril was 40c, and prices of ectos were 37s.

I was equally after they let it go for 4 days without doing anything and ectos dropped to like 25s, mithril rose to 60c+, and snowflakes were like 30s.

The thing is, Anet let it go long that the market eventually reached equilibrium after a bunch of people tried it because of huge threads on these forums and reddit. People like myself, probably tried it <100 times, realized it wasn’t worth the time, and stopped doing it.

The fact that it was a recipe that Anet added, was affected by market rates and didn’t just create gold out of thin air, and wasn’t different then other market altering recipes, really pushes it in terms of permanent bans for an “exploit.”

Now everyone has to be careful, because who knows what recipes Anet is going to add in the future. How are we to know that a new recipe that gets added that turns out to be profitable is an exploit or not? This recipe didn’t create items out of thin air, it created an exchange of 60 mithril and 2 snowflakes, for 7 ectos. It didn’t simply take 1 ecto and suddenly make 10 of them like clueless people like to think.

Thank you strifey at least you seem to get what i was aiming for in the original post , as said you can do this with anoter recipe with a smaller profit margin. Nothing was created from nothing it was just the componet materials worked out much cheaper.

Now people say “exploit” , when there wouldt have been any profit if the snowflakes were priced higher on trading post. So its simply all hanging in a very dubious “grey” area as is it materials to make em where undervalued or start screaming its wrong.

Depends on your point of view i guess.

Kuruptz.4782:

Strifey.7215:

Kuruptz.4782:

wait if this one is so Equally as everything else people claim its

Why the hell do you even use it?

It wasn’t equally in the beginning, when prices of snowflakes were 2s, prices of mithril was 40c, and prices of ectos were 37s.

I was equally after they let it go for 4 days without doing anything and ectos dropped to like 25s, mithril rose to 60c+, and snowflakes were like 30s.

The thing is, Anet let it go long that the market eventually reached equilibrium after a bunch of people tried it because of huge threads on these forums and reddit. People like myself, probably tried it <100 times, realized it wasn’t worth the time, and stopped doing it.

The fact that it was a recipe that Anet added, was affected by market rates and didn’t just create gold out of thin air, and wasn’t different then other market altering recipes, really pushes it in terms of permanent bans for an “exploit.”

Now everyone has to be careful, because who knows what recipes Anet is going to add in the future. How are we to know that a new recipe that gets added that turns out to be profitable is an exploit or not? This recipe didn’t create items out of thin air, it created an exchange of 60 mithril and 2 snowflakes, for 7 ectos. It didn’t simply take 1 ecto and suddenly make 10 of them like clueless people like to think.

But..

that guild say they were thinking this might be an exploit?

Why would they think that if its NOT That Huge of difference ( i seriously dont like exploiters)

as i said if they got an ss of anet saying dont know or no answer to them stopping after they ask question

Hell Anet its your own fault over there seriously no excuse

( i do belive there is some ppl who did get banned and not knowing this is exploit were 110% clueless but very low and what are anet gonna do let them all go with all that gold? everyone can lie )

I personally know one person who tried crafting maybe 100-200 times after it was posted all over the forums and Anet still hadn’t responded or fixed the issue, and made maybe 5-10g because the market had already almost corrected itself.

They didn’t know it was an exploit, because this wasn’t really a blatant exploit like the 21 karma thing, they just figured it was a way to craft and salvage before the market reached total equilibrium and it wasn’t profitable anymore.

While yes, some of the people who got banned probably made a few hundred gold, I’m sure many other people were banned just because Anet took so long to correct their issue and let it spread so mainstream, that they thought what they were doing was fine since at that point they weren’t making huge amounts of money.

Like I said, I did maybe 50 crafts, wasn’t banned, and didn’t really make any gold which is why I stopped. I figured it was just a recipe that I didn’t get on quick enough like many of the other things Anet introduces through patches. There are people like that, that read about this recipe on reddit or these forums, tried it out a couple hundred times, didn’t make exorbitant amounts of gold, and then were banned because from everything I’ve read, they banned based on number of crafts whether it was on day 1 or day 4, not how much money someone made.

The people who were banned on day 4 I consider 100% Anet’s fault, because they waited so long to correct the issue, they let it spread onto major forums with no response, and at that point, the recipe wasn’t really that profitable.

I’m kitten because I had friends get banned, for something that wasn’t clear or obvious, and that they let last so long instead of mitigating the damage. Correcting 2 crafting recipes doesn’t take 4 days, especially when it’s all over the forums. They put in hotfixes for major exploits all the time, like when people were shard farming the first 2 bosses in Arah 3 for ~10g an hour in drops + 6 shards per run, and no bans are handed out. Yet they let something like this go on for 4 days then perma banned people for it for a normal recipe that was only profitable based on market prices? Not something I can agree with or support a company that does that to loyal players.

I just don’t see it as something that should be grounds for permanent bans with the way it was introduced, handled, and how it didn’t actually create gold but was just another one of the 100s of ways that the market was manipulated.

AcidicVision.5498:

There are various degrees to exploitation. Does every crime get you life in prison? Does every write up at work get you fired and unhirable? Every infraction in school get you expelled? Get real dude.

So, what punishment did the lesser exploits get? While not every crime gets you life in prison, small crimes generally don’t go unpunished either.

It comes down to this:
(b) If You violate the Rules of Conduct, then NCsoft may, in its sole and absolute discretion, terminate Your Account under Section 3(b)

Their discretion doesn’t mean its for you or me to decide. It means its for them to decide. And they made the decision that breaching the code of conduct on such a level that it could impact the entire game was a ban worthy offense.[/quote]

No, they made the decision to ban players for a mistake on the dev team’s side. They played the game as it was given to them, how is that breaching anything? I would absolutely love to see you banned for doing smth you thought was totally legit and then watch you defend them. That’s my issue. I don’t actually want perma ban for exploits, I want ANet to act like every normal business out there and own up to their mistakes. They gave us a flawed product. Most business out there give compensations for the inconvenience. ANet gives bans for it. Does that sound normal to you in any way?

You agreed to it by playing the game. You agreed to it by using these forums. If you disagree with it now, then Im all for your account actually being reset so you have to agree to it again if you want to continue playing or participating in the community. If you don’t agree with the ToS and CoC I honestly don’t see any business for you to be here.

If your suggestion comes with a refund, I’d gladly take it. Check and get back to me on that one.

PS: Have a look at the topic Are these exploits? Notice the question? People are starting to doubt game aspects that were never considered exploits before. And that would be my whole problem. How am I supposed to log in the game and play comfortably when I have no way of knowing if I won’t get banned for smth I thought was perfectly legit? Do I have to e-mail support on daily basis and ask for their permission to do xxx? And having in mind that support seems to have some communication issues(check rollback on compromised accounts issue where they were saying “no” nearly 1 month after the offial “yes”), how am I even supposed to trust their answer? Do you feel 100% safe in this game that you won’t end up arbitrary banned? If you do, kudos. I absolutely don’t.

Strifey.7215:

1) Except you don’t get back every mat and the market eventually corrected itself just like every other recipe.

What you get (expected value): .9 Ectos, .8 of your jewel, 1-3 mithril.
What you lose (expected value): .2 of your jewel, 5-7 mithril, 60 copper.

I won’t debate the math, I’ll use what you’ve provided.

If somone bought up 500 snowflakes when they were cheap, we’re talking 2,500 crafts. With 9 ectos every 10 crafts you have…2250 ectos. I think you’ve demonstrated the problem quite well.

Edit: Forgot to take off the ecto cost for crafting… yu have 1750 ectos there. Much better, I’m sure.

[[[So, what punishment did the lesser exploits get? While not every crime gets you life in prison, small crimes generally don’t go unpunished either.]]]

the lesser ones didnt make any big changes

8g? 15g?

or 200g

even those at 100+g MAYBE 10 – 15ppl didnt know this was an exploit totally clueless

The system Aint perfected and Anet made mistakes but hell 90% DESERVES that ban they knew what they were doing

if ppl got ss showing them asking and not given answer from Anet saying Cant talk about it or Dont know or no Those people even if he made 200+ gold shouldnt get banned

What can you do there is ACTULLY people getting convicted for things they havent done a low percentage but its still there

TWMagimay.9057:

I would absolutely love to see you banned for doing smth you thought was totally legit

I don’t see anyone being banned for doing something they thought was legit.

I see a bunch of exploiters who crafted dozens of ectos out of a single ecto, obviously knowing they were abusing an exploit, and now pretending they weren’t doing anything wrong in order to avoid the punishment they deserve.

There was a topic about this in the forum. In it, the OP himself described it as an exploit. That’s what it was, and being banned is nothing more than what exploiters deserve, regardless of how many weak excuses they try to use in order to get away.

TWMagimay.9057

if the topic starter and his guildes posted here

and they came to a discussion can this be a exploit

there you go even that they got exploit in their mind is Its is to good to be true simple should’ve asked / waited for an answer

people who asked and gotten answer as no / dont know deserves Unbans rest Deserves an extra bann for trying to defend themselves

Valmarius.4150:

Strifey.7215:

1) Except you don’t get back every mat and the market eventually corrected itself just like every other recipe.

What you get (expected value): .9 Ectos, .8 of your jewel, 1-3 mithril.
What you lose (expected value): .2 of your jewel, 5-7 mithril, 60 copper.

I won’t debate the math, I’ll use what you’ve provided.

If somone bought up 500 snowflakes when they were cheap, we’re talking 2,500 crafts. With 9 ectos every 10 crafts you have…2250 ectos. I think you’ve demonstrated the problem quite well.

Items are based on the market (economy) and supply and demand.

Why are omnomberries worth 3s and saffron worth 11c when they are both T6 mats?
Why is mithril worth 50c and thick leather worth 7c?
Why was butter worth 1c before Anet introduced the mystic forge recipe, and 20c after?
Why was T6 claws worth 1s before fractal patch, and 20s after?
Why were charged lodestones 1g before the halloween patch and 3g after?

Because of supply/demand.

When Anet introduces new recipes, prices on the market fluctuate.

Introducing a new recipe and material which changes the prices of items isn’t an exploit. It’s no different then the rise and fall of many other items over the course of this game.

People bought hundreds of glacial cores, turned them into charge lodestones with the bugged recipe, and made way more money then this “exploit”, yet they weren’t banned.

Glacial cores were like 3s, when charged lodestones were 1.5g. It costs 6s + 25s for the elonian wine and a portion of one skillpoint to make over 1g per craft.

How is that different then buying cheap snowflakes before people caught on and then either re-selling them later or crafting ectos with them?

I fail to see how that’s different then buying any other item that has increased 1000% overnight through market manipulation, recipes/patches, or bugs that weren’t perma-banned for.

Edit: You know what, forget it. ANet have posted saying that the amount of money made was huge, and I have no reason to doubt them. No point me chiming in when we have no actual data.

Kuruptz.4782:

Soul.5947:

Maybe they should just make an announcement if you make money in the game you are exploiting and will get banned. The game is designed so you can’t make money and need 2 buy gems.

dude your posts…

this man over here deserves a Ban on his exploiting account + his new account + his new new account and the new account after that then unban the new account let him play then Ban it Again

I may not agree with him on the Bans but I do agree with him that they want you poor or play their way. That is undeniable. If you dont do fracs 24-7 like they want you are poor it is that simple. grind the way they want or buy gems that is how it is.

As for the Bans themselves there was a thread asking for direction but like all threads in the forum it was left barren of answer or direction. That alone begs the question is anyone home there?

I am not a crafter so I cant comment on the should have know better however if your able to make money at crafting then something is wrong simply because most other crafting doesnt net that kind of return. Or maybe I need to look into it.

If there was as much difference why only 200 make a real statement and do the deed. Cull the herd.It is what should have been done since the start but people have gotten away with it and they think it is ok to keep doing it. It keeps going back to poor management with this game over and over again.

Like I said please stop the content and fix what need fixing for a couple of months the QA has been horrific. Please continue to not communicate because Every time you do it is to tell me you reducing my way of making gold or something else that ticks me off.

Narkosys.5173:

Kuruptz.4782:

Soul.5947:

Maybe they should just make an announcement if you make money in the game you are exploiting and will get banned. The game is designed so you can’t make money and need 2 buy gems.

dude your posts…

this man over here deserves a Ban on his exploiting account + his new account + his new new account and the new account after that then unban the new account let him play then Ban it Again

I may not agree with him on the Bans but I do agree with him that they want you poor or play their way. That is undeniable. If you dont do fracs 24-7 like they want you are poor it is that simple. grind the way they want or buy gems that is how it is.

As for the Bans themselves there was a thread asking for direction but like all threads in the forum it was left barren of answer or direction. That alone begs the question is anyone home there?

I am not a crafter so I cant comment on the should have know better however if your able to make money at crafting then something is wrong simply because most other crafting doesnt net that kind of return. Or maybe I need to look into it.

If there was as much difference why only 200 make a real statement and do the deed. Cull the herd.It is what should have been done since the start but people have gotten away with it and they think it is ok to keep doing it. It keeps going back to poor management with this game over and over again.

Like I said please stop the content and fix what need fixing for a couple of months the QA has been horrific. Please continue to not communicate because Every time you do it is to tell me you reducing my way of making gold or something else that ticks me off.

I wont argue that gold aint easy its hard and they are trying to make ppl buy gems ( but i dont see what moron would do that 180% more profit from other sites )

but A majority of the 200 not 100% but Alot of them knew this was an exploit end of that deal they deserve a ban

unless they have kitten like the other guy did

Narkosys.5173:

I may not agree with him on the Bans but I do agree with him that they want you poor or play their way.

Not really.

Grinders are annoyed that they cannot grind and, simply by doing something mindless and so easy that a bot can do it, get a massive advantage over the players who like to play games to have fun.

Meanwhile, ArenaNet had already said they don’t want players to grind.

Grinders ignored that, as they assumed that GW2, like all other MMOs, would be basically a grinder’s paradise.

It’s not. It should not be, either. And the simplest, easiest way to cull grinders from the game is by making grind unrewarding, so people would (sooner or later) stop doing it.

Erasculio.2914:

I don’t see anyone being banned for doing something they thought was legit.

I see a bunch of exploiters who crafted dozens of ectos out of a single ecto, obviously knowing they were abusing an exploit, and now pretending they weren’t doing anything wrong in order to avoid the punishment they deserve.

There was a topic about this in the forum. In it, the OP himself described it as an exploit. That’s what it was, and being banned is nothing more than what exploiters deserve, regardless of how many weak excuses they try to use in order to get away.

How do you know what they were thinking? Unless you can provide proof of your psychic powers, that’s pure speculation.

[disclaimer]I only found out about this after it was fixed. Nobody in my surroundings is big on crafting randomly so once we saw the stats, we didn’t even bother crafting a single piece.[/disclaimer]

I can give you 2 scenarios that would explain why smb would do this without consciously knowing it’s an exploit.

- Not everybody is deep into crafting. I have 400 JC and the last time I made anything was about a month ago. I didn’t follow a guide to it, instead just went on gw2db and crafted by order of appearance. As such, I have no working knowledge of the patterns involved in JC and find it entire possible that I wouldn’t have seen anything wrong with the recipe. Would I have had the “too good to be true”-feeling? Maybe. But I can’t say that I’d have 100% known it’s a bad thing. Which brings me to…

- Somebody who’s really into crafting on the other hand would consider this painfully obvious. At this point there are 2 possible explanations for it: at least 2 people from ANet missed the elephant in the room(the person who created the recipe and the person who tested it at the very very least) or it was intended. Now, players tend to assume the game team is more knowledgeable than they are(at least the -nice- players do, you know, the people who don’t tell the doctor how to do his job xD) and as such would be prone to thinking there is no way the team screwed up like this. Which brings me to…

I pointed out in other topics that GW2 is vastly based on discovering new things, thinking outside the box, being creative. This alone makes it so much harder to determine what is intended and what isn’t(hey, one JP has you walking though walls…c’mon). Exploits themselves are already a grey zone. Thus why most games would settle for “ooops”, fix the glitch and do a rollback.

Dantos.1065:

Or buy gold with gems, because manipulating the economy is ok as long as Areanet gets their cut.

This is why I’m starting to not trust the B2P model now, they got your money, now nothing is stopping them from banning you for any little thing, hoping you go out and buy another copy. If you protest, you’ll be called a liar (which some are) and dismissed.

Oh please… enough with the “just buy gold” garbage. You are comparing one method of making money: Creating HUGE mounts of gold from a system that is obviously an exploit that returns more to the user than they put in. To: buying gold with gems (which, first of all, only people who are rich or bad with money do) & nets you a small amount of gold for a huge RL price. Or are you saying there are more than 200 people dropping $7k to buy legendaries every few weeks?

You try to excuse obvious, egregious exploiters while cooking up a lame argument about how gems “destroy” the economy as such a mind-numbingly costly & small rate. Enough. your argument holds no water.

Again, you people are assuming this was done with intent to commit some form of exploit, to break some rule, or to profit in a way that you assume EVERYONE understood to be an obvious violation of the EULA.

Your assumption is flatly incorrect.

You like to say “you should have known better.”

Why? We should they have known better? Oh, I’m sure there were many who said “man – this is obviously an exploit, but I don’t care.” I don’t deny that: there were some who definitely knew better.

But many others? They just assumed that because ArenaNet had put it in the game, it was legit. This wasn’t buying karma weapons for 27 karma, okay? This was just a recipe that had a better return on investment.

You know why I wasn’t banned? I tried the recipe; I did it about 50 times. And you know what? It didn’t work for me. I managed to get ectos maybe 50% of the time I salvaged, and I lost about two snowflakes per 10 salvages. I ran through what Mithril/Orichalcum I had stored, and I realized that the recipe wasn’t really worth my time or effort, since my returns were so poor.

Others in my guild saw that. They assumed it “not working for me” was further proof this was a legit thing. It had a chance of failure; it wasn’t a guaranteed source of profit.

Again, I know some of you seem overeager to label my banned guildies as “criminals” or “exploiters” of the worst sort, but it is patently not true. We do not permit cheating in the games we host guilds in; it makes us look bad as a gaming community.

This was not an obvious “exploit”. Why would we report it? It was a recipe; in my mind an exploit is something obvious, like a T3 karma item costing multiples less than it should. This looked more to me like a subtle attempt by ArenaNet to deflate the Ecto market, much like increasing the T6 mat drops or showering us with precursors in the Karka event.

You ArenaNet apologists really need to pay attention to what is being said here. Most definitely, this was not a “crime” committed wholly by “criminals”; many of them were just players who thought they caught a lucky break.

And in banning guild leaders with no implemented solution to transition leadership, they are radiating out “punishment” to hundreds if not thousands more innocent players, simply because they lacked the foresight to test their recipes, or anticipate one of the most fundamentally basic guild management support needs.

Dao Jones.6720:

You know why I wasn’t banned? I tried the recipe; I did it about 50 times

In other words, you are admiting you are an exploiter. Is that correct?

Dao Jones.6720:

Again, you people are assuming this was done with intent to commit some form of exploit, to break some rule, or to profit in a way that you assume EVERYONE understood to be an obvious violation of the EULA.

Your assumption is flatly incorrect.

You like to say “you should have known better.”

Why? We should they have known better? Oh, I’m sure there were many who said “man – this is obviously an exploit, but I don’t care.” I don’t deny that: there were some who definitely knew better.

But many others? They just assumed that because ArenaNet had put it in the game, it was legit. This wasn’t buying karma weapons for 27 karma, okay? This was just a recipe that had a better return on investment.

You know why I wasn’t banned? I tried the recipe; I did it about 50 times. And you know what? It didn’t work for me. I managed to get ectos maybe 50% of the time I salvaged, and I lost about two snowflakes per 10 salvages. I ran through what Mithril/Orichalcum I had stored, and I realized that the recipe wasn’t really worth my time or effort, since my returns were so poor.

Others in my guild saw that. They assumed it “not working for me” was further proof this was a legit thing. It had a chance of failure; it wasn’t a guaranteed source of profit.

Again, I know some of you seem overeager to label my banned guildies as “criminals” or “exploiters” of the worst sort, but it is patently not true. We do not permit cheating in the games we host guilds in; it makes us look bad as a gaming community.

This was not an obvious “exploit”. Why would we report it? It was a recipe; in my mind an exploit is something obvious, like a T3 karma item costing multiples less than it should. This looked more to me like a subtle attempt by ArenaNet to deflate the Ecto market, much like increasing the T6 mat drops or showering us with precursors in the Karka event.

You ArenaNet apologists really need to pay attention to what is being said here. Most definitely, this was not a “crime” committed wholly by “criminals”; many of them were just players who thought they caught a lucky break.

And in banning guild leaders with no implemented solution to transition leadership, they are radiating out “punishment” to hundreds if not thousands more innocent players, simply because they lacked the foresight to test their recipes, or anticipate one of the most fundamentally basic guild management support needs.

sorry how come some man in those posts claims his guild who got banned were discussion could this be a exploit?7

they usually go around asking every recipe is this a exploit? a recipe in this game?

they obv made a noticable profit and was wondering is this a exploit? were they 100% sure that i dont know but they had some thoughts running around thinking this could be a exploit

go ahead and ask Anet see what they say

If they answer No it aint or I dont know you dont deserve to get banned

if you went ahead anyway and made lots of gold

Banhammer Is ready to be used

I am admitting I used a recipe that was listed in the game,which I (incorrectly) assumed had been tested and vetted by the QA department at ArenaNet.

Had it obviously appeared to be an exploit, I would not have done it. You’ll note that there were threads about this recipe on the forums that were left unanswered. There was no obvious indication to me or my guildies that this was anything nefarious.

So no, I do not admit to “exploiting”. This is more akin to going to a supermarket, and seeing a “buy one, get one free” sign for soda. We loaded up, because it was a good deal. Now that supermarket is telling us “there was supposed to be a limit of 10 sodas purchased. We didn’t write that down anywhere, but that’s the rule now. So you’re all criminals who robbed our store by stealing soda.”

DarksunG.9537:

Creating

You use this word. I don’t think it means what you think it means. These people did not create gold. They created a product to be sold. Money was transferred from people who had it and wanted the ecto to people who had the ecto and wanted the money. There was no inflation, there was no damage. If this recipe posed such a grave threat to the in-game economy, why was it allowed to remain in the game for so long? It stayed in the game through multiple hotfixes to “remove exploits.” Surely you can see how a reasonable person might assume that indicated he wasn’t in the wrong.

This idea that <200 people were banned is absurd. How many people play this game? What’s the likelihood that such a high percentage came from one guild?

Those of you who think this is as simple as banning “cheaters” and your game will be better for it are sorely mistaken. This was the kind of thing that passes through guild chats and between friends really fast. People want to help their guild mates, and if they find a way to make some money, they’re going to share that information. The groups of people hit hard by this are going to be guilds with close communication and lots of numbers. You know, the kind that turn the wheels on the WvWvW maps. The kinds that figure out the way to clear new content and then make video guides on it.

Some of you today didn’t jump on this bandwagon, so you’re looking down your noses on those who did, but do you really feel comfortable with the staff deciding retroactively that something wasn’t acceptable and then handing out bans? The shoe will eventually be on the other foot. The damage to the player base is far greater than the damage to the economy ever was. And it’s not reversible.

Dao Jones.6720:

Had it obviously appeared to be an exploit, I would not have done it.

Out of curiosity, is there any other recipe in the game you have used 50 times in a row, salvaging and then recycling ingredients like this particular recipe allowed you to?

Heguo.4895:

The damage to the player base is far greater than the damage to the economy ever was.

No. The gain for the player base, by losing all those exploiters and cheaters, is far greater than the help to fix the economy given by those bans.

Erasculio.2914:

Dao Jones.6720:

Had it obviously appeared to be an exploit, I would not have done it.

Out of curiosity, is there any other recipe in the game you have used 50 times in a row, salvaging and then recycling ingredients like this particular recipe allowed you to?

Heguo.4895:

The damage to the player base is far greater than the damage to the economy ever was.

No. The gain for the player base, by losing all those exploiters and cheaters, is far greater than the help to fix the economy given by those bans.

Yes there is look at rare shoulders recipe in original post , i have made batches of 250 of those when the price on the components was right to produce ectos , to sell at a profit after covering material costs.

Erasculio.2914:

Out of curiosity, is there any other recipe in the game you have used 50 times in a row, salvaging and then recycling ingredients like this particular recipe allowed you to?

Absolutely. When I was trying to gather ectos for my legendary, I would regularly buy the cheapest T6 mats (or guildies sent them to me) and make either rare level 80 daggers, or rare level 80 warhorns, which I could then grind and hope to get ectos from.

I honestly couldn’t tell you how many of those I made. Easily in excess of 50. I only even bothered with the snowflake recipe so I could help my fellow guildies out with some ectos as payment for their help on my way to my legendary.

Where did ANet say this was an exploit?

There was a thread made 2 weeks ago that specifically mentioned this and asked if it was an exploit. No official response whatsoever. Also the ig screenshot of a Dev being coy and not stating its an exploit.

As much as players are bound by ToS or whatever nonsense argument people like Erasculio et all make, ANet has an obligation to step up and say “Ok, we’re aware of this. Its definitely an exploit.” Not continue pretending to be clueless then ban waves of people feigning “oh my god, we just discovered people were affecting the market, we had to react!”. Sorry, but thats BS.

Also, people who “flip” the market are just as bad, yet that seems to be encouraged by ANet. So I don’t buy the whole “save the economy save the world” argument either.

The arguments I’m seeing in support of ANet are:

Person: “I just found out I have lung cancer”
ANet Illogic Defense Mechanism: “That’s what you get for smoking, you deserve it.”
Person: “I’ve.. never smoked, dude.”
ANet Illogic Defense Mechanism: “Yes you do, you have lung cancer. That’s proof. You’re paying the consequences. You knew the risks.”
Person: “Are you crazy? I’m serious, I’ve never smoked”
ANet Illogic Defense Mechanism: “Trying to play innocent won’t get you anywhere. You got what you deserved. You should have thought about it before you started smoking. Toodles~”

(Note: Only demonstrating the absolute idiotic “logic” from the ANet defense force, not equating smoking and cancer to salvaging items and being banned from a game. Though I doubt they’ll all recognize it.)

Erasculio.2914:

No. The gain for the player base, by losing all those exploiters and cheaters, is far greater than the help to fix the economy given by those bans.

One of us is correct, and one of us is incorrect. We’ll find out over the next few months.

DarksunG.9537:

… from a system that is obviously an exploit…

Obvious to you? To me? To my mom? Grandparents? Customer Support? Development? Management? Marketing? Accounting? Gamestop? Certainly, the RightNow knowledge base clearly elucidates the measure by which any market action is or is not an exploit … except it doesn’t, and neither to the Terms of Service offer enough guidance for this particular situation.

Justice Potter, I am not (Google it if you don’t get the reference). Nor are any paying customers; the rule is ineffable and ignorance is not an excuse. This is a customer-hostile way to do business.

If you don’t understand why the banned people are confused and upset, go read the Reddit threads where people who’ve made an honest mistake discuss the issue rationally. This situation was not “obviously an exploit to everyone;” intelligent, well-meaning people did this, thinking they had a market advantage. Numerous examples abound of why this situation was handled poorly outside of the walled garden.

Finally: I believe cheaters and exploiters should be punished. I came into this game supportive of the philosophy and business model wholeheartedly. There were clearly people who exploited the situation. But just as certainly, there are people who genuinely misunderstood their actions and context, and this state of affairs is certainly an overreaction. I am less-inclined to support an inflexible, circumstance-blind approach to Customer Support and hope cooler heads inevitably prevail. Especially when constructive discussion is ridiculed and stymied by less-informed community members and is met by defensiveness among the support staff (again, Reddit in part, here in part).

Erasculio.2914:

Out of curiosity, is there any other recipe in the game you have used 50 times in a row, salvaging and then recycling ingredients like this particular recipe allowed you to?

The first post in this thread? That was kind of the point, wasn’t it?

Dao Jones.6720:

Absolutely. When I was trying to gather ectos for my legendary, I would regularly buy the cheapest T6 mats (or guildies sent them to me) and make either rare level 80 daggers, or rare level 80 warhorns, which I could then grind and hope to get ectos from.

Which means you knew how the salvaging system works – how when salvaging those daggers and warhorns you would get mithril back and maybe an ecto, while when salvaging the snowflake jewels you actually got mithril, maybe an ecto, and also the snowflake jewel, which was enough for making a new piece of jewelry.

The fact it had such a higher return than the other recipes you admittedly knew about, and that it was different enough that you actually tried crafting a rare jewel instead of your usual options (daggers and warhorns) shows how you understood it was not the same thing. In other words, how it was something in a different order of magnitude from other recipes in the game, which you quickly tried to make a profit from, even if you failed.

In other words, how it was an exploit you tried to abuse.

arjeidi.2690:

Where did ANet say this was an exploit?

It was obviously an exploit. Saying it wasn’t obivious is the same as claiming that stealing isn’t a crime unless there’s a sign in each store saying so.

Awesome.6120:

Power.2957:

And the saga continues…

I’ll never stop beating myself up for not screenshotting the dev I asked in game about the snowflake recipe who responded “get it while it’s hot.”

http://i.imgur.com/0SICA.jpg

Something similar.

So …. anyone wondering how many earrings the General made & what he did with them?

Erasculio.2914:

Dao Jones.6720:

Absolutely. When I was trying to gather ectos for my legendary, I would regularly buy the cheapest T6 mats (or guildies sent them to me) and make either rare level 80 daggers, or rare level 80 warhorns, which I could then grind and hope to get ectos from.

Which means you knew how the salvaging system works – how when salvaging those daggers and warhorns you would get mithril back and maybe an ecto, while when salvaging the snowflake jewels you actually got mithril, maybe an ecto, and also the snowflake jewel, which was enough for making a new piece of jewelry.

The fact it had such a higher return than the other recipes you admittedly knew about, and that it was different enough that you actually tried crafting a rare jewel instead of your usual options (daggers and warhorns) shows how you understood it was not the same thing. In other words, how it was something in a different order of magnitude from other recipes in the game, which you quickly tried to make a profit from, even if you failed.

In other words, how it was an exploit you tried to abuse.

He just finished telling you how he tried it, lost his money, and quit. How on earth do you go from that to assuming he knew this had a better profit margin and thus had malicious intent?

Power.2957:

PLEASE keep up the kittenery and see how many people end up buying your expansions.

Definitely a lot more than if they allowed cheaters and exploiters to run unpunished in the game.

Kiserai.3957:

He just finished telling you how he tried it, lost his money, and quit. How on earth do you go from that to assuming he knew this had a better profit margin and thus had malicious intent?

If he had not known this had a better profit margin than his usual approach, he would have kept his usual approach instead of making 50 jewels in order to get easy gold. The fact someone who understood the crafting system, and so knew exactly what he was doing, was so eager to change how he crafted items in order to quickly use a new recipe with higher returns than the old recipes in the game, by making a high quantity of those new items and salvaging them for ectos, is proof that he knew he was trying to “play smart”.

Why are people even comparing this recipe with others claiming they work the exact same way? If you craft your shoulder pieces, when you salavge them is there a 80% chance that you get the 15 bones back? NO. You lose the 15 bones, they are gone. And everytime you make another shoulder piece you need another 15 bones. The best you can hope for is an ecto and some silk scraps but that is it.
When you craft the snowflake one, you create the ring. And when you salavge it there is a 80% chance of getting the brilliant snowflake back AND you get the chance at getting an ecto. If you get brilliant snowflake back and get even one ecto you created something out of nothing, which is impossible to happen with the shoulder recipe.
Its like salvaging an old car, and suddenly you take out the motor, dig around some more and suddenly pull another half out of a motor out of the car, even though the car only had one motor to begin with. it doesnt make sense and its obvious to anyone who ever did any form of jewlcrafting that this is not how it works.
And anet did say that it was an exploit in another thread called “how to turn 1 ecto into a stack of ectos” or something along that line, but people obviously ignore that.
I will edit this post in a minute or two, brb digging trough the forums and trying to find the thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/How-to-make-1-glob-of-ectoplasm-into-stacks/first read page one and two. you are welcome.

Gluttony.2017:

Why are people even comparing this recipe with others claiming they work the exact same way?

Because the only difference, from a high-level perspective, is the profit margin.

Kiserai.3957:

Gluttony.2017:

Why are people even comparing this recipe with others claiming they work the exact same way?

Because the only difference, from a high-level perspective, is the profit margin.

Selective reading eh? How about you quote the part where one recipe creates something from nothing which the other one doesnt? Oh wait, we are trying to make it look like people that exploited are innocent, i forgot.

Erasculio.2914:

Power.2957:

PLEASE keep up the kittenery and see how many people end up buying your expansions.

Definitely a lot more than if they allowed cheaters and exploiters to run unpunished in the game.

I’m not condemning them for banning people, I’m calling them out for not telling the truth and being general kitten clowns throughout this whole ordeal.

Erasculio.2914:

The fact it had such a higher return than the other recipes you admittedly knew about, and that it was different enough that you actually tried crafting a rare jewel instead of your usual options (daggers and warhorns) shows how you understood it was not the same thing. In other words, how it was something in a different order of magnitude from other recipes in the game, which you quickly tried to make a profit from, even if you failed.

I have no idea how you got from that, to this:

In other words, how it was an exploit you tried to abuse.

Really? In a batch of 10, I’d lose 2-3 snowflakes, most of the mithril (or orichalcum – I tried both), and get maybe a handful of Ectos back. Was it more profitable than making a dagger? Yes. Does that NATURALLY follow that it MUST be an exploit, because it is somewhat more profitable than another currently existing salvage method?

No.

No, guy, that does not follow at all. In my mind I assumed I was trading mithril/ori for Ecto, at a slightly more favorable rate than via the daggers. That it wasn’t really that profitable for me further distanced in my mind the notion that this was somehow illegitimate.

There are “good deals” all the time in this game. Cheap TP buys that turn into profitable TP sells. Spots where you can get good drops that have favorable resale rates. I’m largely aware of NONE of these things until long after they’re tapped out, because I seriously do not pay attention to the in’s and out’s of making money in MMOs.

So no, I did not think this recipe was an exploit. If I did, I would not have used it. You seem unwilling to accept my honesty here; that is on you, not me. ArenaNet, in turn, seems to be unwilling to accept their own incompetence in this affair; while my guildies bear the short-term burden of their judgement, they may find the long term effect of their decision is not to their benefit.

Kiserai.3957:

Because the only difference, from a high-level perspective, is the profit margin.

Actually, the main difference, from any sane perspective, is that one allows you to make an almost infinite loop and the other doesn’t.

Dao Jones.6720:

No, guy, that does not follow at all. In my mind I assumed I was trading mithril/ori for Ecto, at a slightly more favorable rate than via the daggers.

A significantly more favourable rate than via the daggers, since not only you would get the same relative amount of mithril and orichalcum back, but you also kept the recipe’s activator, which is more often than not the most expensive part of the recipe. Which was an unique property of this specific recipe, and if you hadn’t realized it was something unique you wouldn’t have given it preference over daggers and other items.

In other words, you knew it was an exploit to make quick gold.

As someone else had said weeks ago…

Astraea.6075:

Let’s see… an item that can be salvaged to return more than it cost to make? That sounds like an exploit to me if only because of the effect that something like this can have on the game’s economy.

Gluttony.2017:

Kiserai.3957:

Gluttony.2017:

Why are people even comparing this recipe with others claiming they work the exact same way?

Because the only difference, from a high-level perspective, is the profit margin.

Selective reading eh? How about you quote the part where one recipe creates something from nothing which the other one doesnt? Oh wait, we are trying to make it look like people that exploited are innocent, i forgot.

Gluttony the recipe does not create something from nothing at all, both the examples used in my original post require a constant input of new materials for each and every craft.

The difference is in quantity and cost ( cost being decided by a open market that adjusts to suplly and demand )

Its a fallacy that people seem to be determined to propagate that this allowed creation of these items forever without any input materials.

Valmarius.4150:

Edit: You know what, forget it. ANet have posted saying that the amount of money made was huge, and I have no reason to doubt them. No point me chiming in when we have no actual data.

I haven’t seen anything that said the amount of money was huge, I did see them say they banned the people who crafted the most which is completely different.

Again, I know someone who made hundreds of gold that was banned, and I know someone who made ~10g from 200 crafts near the end when it wasn’t very profitable.

Please post where they actually measured the gold amount and not the amount of recipes crafted. Because there are plenty of people posting on reddit who had a couple hundred crafts but didn’t make a couple hundred gold.

TrapjaW.4983:

Gluttony.2017:

Kiserai.3957:

Gluttony.2017:

Why are people even comparing this recipe with others claiming they work the exact same way?

Because the only difference, from a high-level perspective, is the profit margin.

Selective reading eh? How about you quote the part where one recipe creates something from nothing which the other one doesnt? Oh wait, we are trying to make it look like people that exploited are innocent, i forgot.

Gluttony the recipe does not create something from nothing at all, both the examples used in my original post require a constant input of new materials for each and every craft.

The difference is in quantity and cost ( cost being decided by a open market that adjusts to suplly and demand )

Its a fallacy that people seem to be determined to propagate that this allowed creation of these items forever without any input materials.

No they didnt. You did not recieve the major ingredient (the 15 bones) back. Never. Not under any circumstance. There is not even a 1% chance of that happening.
And here we have a recipe that has a 80% chance of returning the major ingredient (the brilliant snowflake). You see the difference? the recipes are nothing alike. You can re-use the brilliant snowflake 4-5 times, heck you could have re-used it 10000x if you have enough black lion salvage kits and the only cost invovled would have been the mitrhril and salvage kit. So, tell me how the recipes are even similar in return salvage value?

I don’t support exploits or exploiters.. I also don’t support the nonexistant transfer of guild leadership when the leader’s account is banned, deleted, abandoned, etc. That is simply punishing innocent people and guilt by association should not apply.

That said I don’t like the fact that this thread was not answered until today when it was reported 17days ago…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Is-this-intended-with-the-snowflakes/first#post1136155

I am seriously on the fence with this issue. Sure people making a ton of profit off a recipe should ask themselves if it’s legit. On the other hand a company that lets a recipe slip through testing and is not completely obvious (like a 21 Karma cost for a T3 cultural weapon<—screams of exploit)should ban offenders but a permanent ban? I just don’t know.

Gluttony.2017:

TrapjaW.4983:

Gluttony.2017:

Kiserai.3957:

Gluttony.2017:

Why are people even comparing this recipe with others claiming they work the exact same way?

Because the only difference, from a high-level perspective, is the profit margin.

Selective reading eh? How about you quote the part where one recipe creates something from nothing which the other one doesnt? Oh wait, we are trying to make it look like people that exploited are innocent, i forgot.

Gluttony the recipe does not create something from nothing at all, both the examples used in my original post require a constant input of new materials for each and every craft.

The difference is in quantity and cost ( cost being decided by a open market that adjusts to suplly and demand )

Its a fallacy that people seem to be determined to propagate that this allowed creation of these items forever without any input materials.

No they didnt. You did not recieve the major ingredient (the 15 bones) back. Never. Not under any circumstance. There is not even a 1% chance of that happening.
And here we have a recipe that has a 80% chance of returning the major ingredient (the brilliant snowflake). You see the difference? the recipes are nothing alike. You can re-use the brilliant snowflake 4-5 times, heck you could have re-used it 10000x if you have enough black lion salvage kits and the only cost invovled would have been the mitrhril and salvage kit. So, tell me how the recipes are even similar in return salvage value?

I never said that the recipes was similiar in value ever, i have always stated in every post since the original that the snowflake one was much more profitable.
What I have said is that the method for generating profit is the same , the thing that makes a difference is the cost of the input components.

Yes the main cost as ive said before is either the Mithril/Orichalcum ore depending what recipe people were using and yes input of Pristine snowflakes which obviously varied depending on your luck of getting it back with a salavge kit ( and yes i know what type of salavge kit affected this return rate ).

But again the costs of these are in a open market that is set by suplly and demand so the prices started adjusting as demand incresed.

Lets take a hypothetical situation , Anet introduces a area that drops huge amounts of T5 mats reliably ..the T5 mats then take a nosedive on TP. Suddenly your in this exact situation basically again, you are able to craft salavageable rares incredibly cheap and again people who realise will be able to make a lot of money before prices stabilise again if they jump onto the crafting bandwagon again.

( and prob be my last post atm , as going to sleep :P )

Infernia.9847:

Sure people making a ton of profit off a recipe should ask themselves if it’s legit. On the other hand a company that lets a recipe slip through testing and is not completely obvious (like a 21 Karma cost for a T3 cultural weapon<—screams of exploit)should ban offenders but a permanent ban? I just don’t know.

Someone made a guide about using this exploit here, stating in bolded letters “This is a great way to get storage space, and gold!”. The fact it was so proftable to deserve its own guide already screams of exploit.

TrapjaW.4983:

Erasculio.2914:

Dao Jones.6720:

Had it obviously appeared to be an exploit, I would not have done it.

Out of curiosity, is there any other recipe in the game you have used 50 times in a row, salvaging and then recycling ingredients like this particular recipe allowed you to?

Heguo.4895:

The damage to the player base is far greater than the damage to the economy ever was.

No. The gain for the player base, by losing all those exploiters and cheaters, is far greater than the help to fix the economy given by those bans.

Yes there is look at rare shoulders recipe in original post , i have made batches of 250 of those when the price on the components was right to produce ectos , to sell at a profit after covering material costs.

But that one doesn’t give back enough of the rare mats (or any for that matter) so that after crafting 1 you can just keep going so long as you have the cheap common mats.
That is the key difference. In one case you have to continually input new rare mats, in the other you gain the initial investment of rare mats back with 80-100% certainty depending on kit used.

The difference between a cheap mat and a rare mat is the price.

Kiserai.3957:

The difference between a cheap mat and a rare mat is the price.

There is a difference between common mats (silk/mithril etc) and fine/rare mats (claws/bloods/ectos etc).