Guild Wars 2

caiomacos.1694:

Actually, what I see is quite the opposite. The design decisions we´ve seen with Ascended and World ranks cater to people with this exactly mentality of “I deserve better rewards for my time! How come I am not stronger than a person that has half game played hours than me? I want better stats”.

I´ve never seen people how criticizes Ascended gear asking for everything in the game to be given to them on a silver platter. They just expected the game to be true to its ideal of not being on a eternal grinding for better stats, and after a reaching the stat plateau the progress would be horizontal (cosmetic, titles, achievements, etc). But now, 7 months from release we`ve already have a new gear tier and a new vertical progression on WvW.

The people who WANTs more and more things (and probably shall never be satisfied with not having a vertical progression to work towards to) are the ones who like the Ascended grind, and not the other way around.

This is nicely put.

caiomacos.1694:

Actually, what I see is quite the opposite. The design decisions we´ve seen with Ascended and World ranks cater to people with this exactly mentality of “I deserve better rewards for my time! How come I am not stronger than a person that has half game played hours than me? I want better stats”.

I´ve never seen people how criticizes Ascended gear asking for everything in the game to be given to them on a silver platter. They just expected the game to be true to its ideal of not being on a eternal grinding for better stats, and after a reaching the stat plateau the progress would be horizontal (cosmetic, titles, achievements, etc). But now, 7 months from release we`ve already have a new gear tier and a new vertical progression on WvW.

The people who WANTs more and more things (and probably shall never be satisfied with not having a vertical progression to work towards to) are the ones who like the Ascended grind, and not the other way around.

The other group will not be happy until they too have max stats so they try to make sure nothing new is added in. Its more of a counter silver platter group who wants nothing to changes ever.
If you think Ascended gear is a comply new tier if you think wvw progression is important if you call what we have in GW2 is a grind you are part of the counter silver platter group who simply do not want to see other get better then them and at the same time they do not want to make them self better.

gennyt.3428:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

stof.9341:

Don’t put stats behind a grind. Only put skins and titles and achievements. And put them behind some CHALLENGING grind, not mindless.

Skill > Stats. That extra stat boost a max Ascended gear gives won’t save you if you don’t know how to kite/dodge.

And the player with Ascended gear who can kite and dodge is in a better position than one who is equally skilled in exotics. They added a power creep and the resulting typical level cap stat grind, there’s no dancing around that.

I hear you. But also consider how much of a difference there really is between max Exotic and max Ascended gear stats (disregarding Infused/AR). The advantage is so small, that it really doesn’t matter.

Imagine that you had 1,000 HP left. If you get hit for 1,100 damage or 1,150 damage, you’re still downed. (based on TGH)

Same is true if you deal 1,100 or 1,150 damage (based on STR), and the enemy has 1,000 HP left.

The mental state of dividing whats best with the rest is not very smart.

The hobo on the street doesn’t need a 3 course meal, but he sure does want it right? He can survive off of a jelly sandwich and a bottle of water, but he would love to have a actual meal.

The above is the majority of this communities argument for ascended gear. It is a bad argument. Telling someone they don’t need the best to contend in a decent fashion is always wrong. People without the best are continually at a disadvantage REGARDLESS of how small the advantage is in reality. It is not very intelligent to argue against straight facts. Better is better, and everyone wants better.

There is no reason to take someone in Exotic gear over someone in Ascended. If they are equal skill level and play the same thing Ascended gear will always push bigger numbers and therefore will be better for the group/party. It will be needed/required eventually.

Just look at the community in today’s setting. Who would take someone in White’s to Arah? Only people who are friends of that poor soul. No amount of skill will make up for the sheer difference in numbers from White to Ascended. The gap between Exotic and Ascended may be small to some of you but…. here are some facts for one piece:

Ascended – Red Ring of Death

Power: 104
Precision: 69
Crit dmg: +8%

Exotic – Berserker Ring + Exquisite Ruby

Power: 92
Precision: 63
Crit Dmg: +6%
—

So comparing the two we get Ascended being better by:

Power: 13% better
Precision: 9.5% better
Crit Dmg: 33% better

So overall, with full Ascended gear, it is going to make a big difference. Same as Rare to Exotic.

@ Vanthian.9267 i like how you leave out earrings neck and back items the rings are an outlier for the set and the different of rares to exotic is much larger then exotic to Ascended.

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267 i like how you leave out earrings neck and back items the rings are an outlier for the set and the different of rares to exotic is much larger then exotic to Ascended.

The same applies if you add the whole set together. The extra added stats above max Exotics don’t make you a better player. They give you a small boost, which helps, but is not game breaking.

Come back with the same argument when Ascended gear gives a +50% stat boost over Exotics, then I’ll side with you.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267 i like how you leave out earrings neck and back items the rings are an outlier for the set and the different of rares to exotic is much larger then exotic to Ascended.

The same applies if you add the whole set together. The extra added stats above max Exotics don’t make you a better player. They give you a small boost, which helps, but is not game breaking.

Come back with the same argument when Ascended gear gives a +50% stat boost over Exotics, then I’ll side with you.

Well show the math of rare vs exotic i am trying to work it out now but its going to take some time. Your just simply throwing out numbers with no backing.

If i did it right it comes to rare vs exotic for berz
power is 15% dif
per is 40% dif
and crit dmg is 18%% dif

I am doing

(92-59)/((92+59)/2)100 = 15% for power
(63-42)/((63+42)/2)100 = 40% for per
(6-5)/((6+5)/2)*100 =18% fixed it crit dmg is an odd ball.

For ascended vs extoic its
12% power
9.1% per
29% crit dmg

My math
(104-92)/((104+92)/2)100 = 12%
(69-63)/((69+63)/2)100 = 9.1%
(8-6)/((8+6)/2)*100 = 29%

http://www.mathsisfun.com/percentage-difference.html
Where i got my equations.

Jski.6180:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267 i like how you leave out earrings neck and back items the rings are an outlier for the set and the different of rares to exotic is much larger then exotic to Ascended.

The same applies if you add the whole set together. The extra added stats above max Exotics don’t make you a better player. They give you a small boost, which helps, but is not game breaking.

Come back with the same argument when Ascended gear gives a +50% stat boost over Exotics, then I’ll side with you.

Well show the math of rare vs exotic i am trying to work it out now but its going to take some time. Your just simply throwing out numbers with no backing.

Numbers don’t matter to me. I don’t sit around and add all my damage while I’m killing something/somebody. Case in point, I kill people in WvW without having full Exotic gear. Heck, I used to run around with MF runes and gear. I even checked my gear last nite, and noticed that I’ve been running around with a Green Amulet.

I don’t need Ascended gear. I acknowledge that I want it, thus I play to earn it. But until I can get it, I can still do well with the mid/high level gear I have on now.

TooBz.3065:

Well, practically speaking, there can be no need in the game. It’s a game. I could read a book or watch a movie or play another game.

However, if you want to maximize your toon, then you need to do dailies.

If you want to maximize your toon, you will need to do dailies for 30 days, or dailies for twenty days and the monthly once. Then you have maximized your toon.

And you can do exactly the same stuff you did with it before you maximized your toon.

[Had this reply written out for a topic about the so-called “modern gamer,” but the topic has been deleted. Sorry if it’s a little off-topic, but I think it’s still related.]

Well, it’s not so simple that we can figure out what “modern gamers” want, as if they’re all the same people. But, in general, I find that a lot of posters here seem to think that they know what’s best for the game, and that what works for them should work for everyone.

Those who have a lot of free time to pour into the game think GW2 should be more difficult, cater to a hardcore play style, and reward personal skill and dedication above all else. They have no patience for “calendar gating,” as it actively seeks to rob them of their competitive advantage. A good game, for them, is a test of skill. You have to earn your place.

Other kinds of players have less free time, and opportunities to log in are short and spotty. They value a game that gives them a fun experience right away, and doesn’t “play games” with them so to speak. They despise any hint of “gear gating” or “vertical progression,” and don’t want to feel like other players are getting a more full experience just for having time to “grind” more content.

I’m generalizing on this spectrum, of course — but if I had to simplify the issue into a quick sound byte, I would say the personal motto for a lot of people is: “If I can do it, anyone can. If you can’t, then it’s your fault. If I can’t, then it’s poor game design.”

ArenaNet is trying to appeal to gamers at all levels of this spectrum. They have hard stuff and easy stuff. They have activities that don’t require an experience level at all, and other activities that get progressively more difficult and demand the best gear and skills. And in every case, you can find people who will point at a given part of the game and say: “That’s wrong. This is a bad part of the game. I can’t do that. It shouldn’t be this way.”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Jski.6180:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267 i like how you leave out earrings neck and back items the rings are an outlier for the set and the different of rares to exotic is much larger then exotic to Ascended.

The same applies if you add the whole set together. The extra added stats above max Exotics don’t make you a better player. They give you a small boost, which helps, but is not game breaking.

Come back with the same argument when Ascended gear gives a +50% stat boost over Exotics, then I’ll side with you.

Well show the math of rare vs exotic i am trying to work it out now but its going to take some time. Your just simply throwing out numbers with no backing.

Numbers don’t matter to me. I don’t sit around and add all my damage while I’m killing something/somebody. Case in point, I kill people in WvW without having full Exotic gear. Heck, I used to run around with MF runes and gear. I even checked my gear last nite, and noticed that I’ve been running around with a Green Amulet.

I don’t need Ascended gear. I acknowledge that I want it, thus I play to earn it. But until I can get it, I can still do well with the mid/high level gear I have on now.

You gave me an excuse to use math its worth running the numbers for me.

Most of the ppl who do get Ascended gear dose not feel stronger for having it so do not kill your self getting it. Think of it as a long term goal and try not to think of it as needed.

When you take into account every character’s base stats, the increase from ascended gear (over exotic) is even less significant.

Just using the power attribute as an example and only berserker’s armour and jewellery:

Exotic items give about 1692 power (916 base + 776 exotics)
Ascended items give about 1749 power (916 base + 833 ascended)

(1749/1692)*100 = 103.36%

Full ascended gear gives less than 4% increase in power over exotic gear.

Then factor in huge potential gains in +power from trait points and food etc. and the difference between exotic and ascended gear becomes even less significant.

Jski.6180:

http://www.mathsisfun.com/percentage-difference.html
Where i got my equations.

Percent Difference and a Percentage Increase are two very different things.

I am showing a straight Percentage increase from one item to the next. A difference takes into account a average of the two items and then rationalizes it together with the Percentage Increase.

To make it easier:
For Rares to Exotics:
15% power difference percentage….
well…. 59 * 15% = 8.85 so then you add… 59+8.85=67.85 which is no where near 92.
or …. 92 * 15%= 13.8 so then you subtract 92-13.8=78.2 which is no where near 59.

This formula does not give you a good indication of how much of a INCREASE we have from item to item. You need a Percentage Increase not a Difference.

Rares to Exotics:
92/59=1.559322034 or a increase of… 55.9322034%
59 * 55.9322034%=33.00000001 then add…. 59+33.00000001=92.00000001 which is ridiculously close to the actual amount and is only off due to rounding (because I don’t’ want to carry the math out to a infinite amount of spaces).

Therefore, the pure increase in the power stat from Rare to Exotic on this one item is roughly 55.9322034%. On that item mind you and not as a whole.

The formula you propose is not suited for what numbers we are looking at for this point.

Also, to those including the base stats into the argument… you need to take them out. They are constants that should not be weighted when looking at a increase from one item to the next (or a group of items: aka Exotic full gear versus Ascended full gear). You should also neglect traits and any other source of increase.

Why should we take base stats out of the argument? Do they suddenly not exist because we are comparing two sets of gear?

@ Vanthian.9267
Sry not to many are going to read what you posted its a bit too much for non math major. The point was that even if with the numbers as they are will not excludes you from content in the game making all Ascended WANT and not NEED.

This is the point of this thread beyond that your getting off-topic badly.

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267
Sry not to many are going to read what you posted its a bit too much for non math major. The point was that even if with the numbers as they are will not excludes you from content in the game making all Ascended WANT and not NEED.

This is the point of this thread beyond that your getting off-topic badly.

I agree with this. In other games, you need certain minimum stat requirements to engage in content at all. In Rift, at least back when I played, you had to have a minimum of a specific stat to queue for a dungeon. I played a Cleric and if I didn’t have the right amount of focus, I couldn’t queue for that dungeon.

That’s because the dungeon bosses were designed so that if you didn’t have that stat, you couldn’t damage the at all. So to get the stat, I needed to get more and better gear. But that number was constantly getting higher. So I’d need more and better gear to get to the next dungeon, the next raid, the next whatever.

In Guild Wars 2, I can enter Arah explorable mode in greens if I want. It’s a very different animal.

no grind means there is a definitive way of obtaining gear
- laurels
- pristine fractal relics
- dungeon tokens
- karma

grind means there is a small % of getting precursor

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267
Sry not to many are going to read what you posted its a bit too much for non math major. The point was that even if with the numbers as they are will not excludes you from content in the game making all Ascended WANT and not NEED.

This is the point of this thread beyond that your getting off-topic badly.

It is still very much on topic. The higher numbers will be needed and required eventually. Do they scale FotM with Masterwork Gear in mind? No, they do not. They are designing the high levels for Ascended.

You can say that, “But… but… that is only one place in the game!”. That is very true, at the moment. That does not lend towards the future in which they have stated that more Agony bosses will filter their way into the game at some point. Which means that eventually Ascended items will be needed for the game (as it is now).

My first example still stands. Why would you stand around eating nothing but Jelly sandwiches when you can be having a 3 full course meal?

Also, taking out the base stats shows the pure increase from Exotic to Ascended and not the buffed base numbers. Consider this simplified version.

Exotic gear gives: 5 Power
Ascended gives: 7 Power
So the increase is: 40%

Now, say base stats where 10 each.
Then you would have…
Exotic gear + Base = 15 Power
Ascended gear + Base = 17 Power
Which comes to: 13.33333%

As you can see, the second example is miss leading in the actual increase of the single items power. The second example is a overall increase. Very different things.

Please note: When presenting a percentage as fact while using a formula that gives something completely different than what you are trying to prove is a way of trying to sway a crowd. Politicians and polls do it all the time.

So when talking about a Percent Increase of a item; show the increase form item to item… not the overall increase or the difference percentage between the two.

Vanthian.9267:

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267
Sry not to many are going to read what you posted its a bit too much for non math major. The point was that even if with the numbers as they are will not excludes you from content in the game making all Ascended WANT and not NEED.

This is the point of this thread beyond that your getting off-topic badly.

It is still very much on topic. The higher numbers will be needed and required eventually. Do they scale FotM with Masterwork Gear in mind? No, they do not. They are designing the high levels for Ascended.

You can say that, “But… but… that is only one place in the game!”. That is very true, at the moment. That does not lend towards the future in which they have stated that more Agony bosses will filter their way into the game at some point. Which means that eventually Ascended items will be needed for the game (as it is now).

My first example still stands. Why would you stand around eating nothing but Jelly sandwiches when you can be having a 3 full course meal?

Also, taking out the base stats shows the pure increase from Exotic to Ascended and not the buffed base numbers. Consider this simplified version.

Exotic gear gives: 5 Power
Ascended gives: 7 Power
So the increase is: 40%

Now, say base stats where 10 each.
Then you would have…
Exotic gear + Base = 15 Power
Ascended gear + Base = 17 Power
Which comes to: 13.33333%

As you can see, the second example is miss leading in the actual increase of the single items power. The second example is a overall increase. Very different things.

Please note: When presenting a percentage as fact while using a formula that gives something completely different than what you are trying to prove is a way of trying to sway a crowd. Politicians and polls do it all the time.

So when talking about a Percent Increase of a item; show the increase form item to item… not the overall increase or the difference percentage between the two.

So when this great increase in a need for power appears in the game, how hard will it be to get this ascended stuff you’ll need? Do you know? Are you making certain assumptions? I’m relatively certain, personally you won’t see much content gating in this game. Anet seems to be aiming the game toward the casual audience, rather than the hard core one.

Chessrook.8643:

You do NOT need. You WANT.

Your semantics are bogus. It’s okay to want things. It’s an entertainment product for which I have paid Arenanet my hard-earned money.

Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save Arenanet, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the U.S.A.

Vanthian.9267:

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267
Sry not to many are going to read what you posted its a bit too much for non math major. The point was that even if with the numbers as they are will not excludes you from content in the game making all Ascended WANT and not NEED.

This is the point of this thread beyond that your getting off-topic badly.

It is still very much on topic. The higher numbers will be needed and required eventually. Do they scale FotM with Masterwork Gear in mind? No, they do not. They are designing the high levels for Ascended.

You can say that, “But… but… that is only one place in the game!”. That is very true, at the moment. That does not lend towards the future in which they have stated that more Agony bosses will filter their way into the game at some point. Which means that eventually Ascended items will be needed for the game (as it is now).

My first example still stands. Why would you stand around eating nothing but Jelly sandwiches when you can be having a 3 full course meal?

Also, taking out the base stats shows the pure increase from Exotic to Ascended and not the buffed base numbers. Consider this simplified version.

Exotic gear gives: 5 Power
Ascended gives: 7 Power
So the increase is: 40%

Now, say base stats where 10 each.
Then you would have…
Exotic gear + Base = 15 Power
Ascended gear + Base = 17 Power
Which comes to: 13.33333%

As you can see, the second example is miss leading in the actual increase of the single items power. The second example is a overall increase. Very different things.

Please note: When presenting a percentage as fact while using a formula that gives something completely different than what you are trying to prove is a way of trying to sway a crowd. Politicians and polls do it all the time.

So when talking about a Percent Increase of a item; show the increase form item to item… not the overall increase or the difference percentage between the two.

I believe you will find that there are exactly 0 scenarios in Guild Wars 2 where your base stats are not taken into account.

If I gave you a full set of exotic gear and a full set of ascended gear and asked you to compare the stats and give me a percentage increase that the ascended gear afforded you, would you give me the (incorrect) value of 10% or the correct value of 3%?

CobaltSixty.1542:

I believe you will find that there are exactly 0 scenarios in Guild Wars 2 where your base stats are not taken into account.

Jumping puzzles.

RebelYell.7132:

CobaltSixty.1542:

I believe you will find that there are exactly 0 scenarios in Guild Wars 2 where your base stats are not taken into account.

Jumping puzzles.

Actually in some cases your base stats are taken into account, even in jumping puzzles. Many of them have monsters within them that you have to kill. In others there are times when you’ll fall and survive and can continue from there, where other people might just die.

Vanthian.9267:

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267
Sry not to many are going to read what you posted its a bit too much for non math major. The point was that even if with the numbers as they are will not excludes you from content in the game making all Ascended WANT and not NEED.

This is the point of this thread beyond that your getting off-topic badly.

It is still very much on topic. The higher numbers will be needed and required eventually. Do they scale FotM with Masterwork Gear in mind? No, they do not. They are designing the high levels for Ascended.

You can say that, “But… but… that is only one place in the game!”. That is very true, at the moment. That does not lend towards the future in which they have stated that more Agony bosses will filter their way into the game at some point. Which means that eventually Ascended items will be needed for the game (as it is now).

My first example still stands. Why would you stand around eating nothing but Jelly sandwiches when you can be having a 3 full course meal?

Also, taking out the base stats shows the pure increase from Exotic to Ascended and not the buffed base numbers. Consider this simplified version.

Exotic gear gives: 5 Power
Ascended gives: 7 Power
So the increase is: 40%

Now, say base stats where 10 each.
Then you would have…
Exotic gear + Base = 15 Power
Ascended gear + Base = 17 Power
Which comes to: 13.33333%

As you can see, the second example is miss leading in the actual increase of the single items power. The second example is a overall increase. Very different things.

Please note: When presenting a percentage as fact while using a formula that gives something completely different than what you are trying to prove is a way of trying to sway a crowd. Politicians and polls do it all the time.

So when talking about a Percent Increase of a item; show the increase form item to item… not the overall increase or the difference percentage between the two.

They also stated they will be introducing other means to obtain gear.

At the moment there is only one place that requires agony. I would bet that if it became much more prevalent, the other means to obtain gear would be in place.

You people wanting it now all need to chill about it and wait. It takes time to get this stuff in the game.

None of it is necessary at this time unless you want to run fractals.

Vayne.8563:

RebelYell.7132:

CobaltSixty.1542:

I believe you will find that there are exactly 0 scenarios in Guild Wars 2 where your base stats are not taken into account.

Jumping puzzles.

Actually in some cases your base stats are taken into account, even in jumping puzzles. Many of them have monsters within them that you have to kill. In others there are times when you’ll fall and survive and can continue from there, where other people might just die.

falling dmg is a % of your hp.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Falling#Falling_damage

Riselight.3695:

Really, if you care about 20 more precision, or 25 more power, then you need to man up and really stop whining. You really WON’T feel the difference (except in Fractals with Agony resistance).

just some quick and easy math

i run full clerics, so these numbers will not reflect the backpiece

5x sapphire ori trinkets = 461 healing power
-2x rings(184) + 2x accessories(162) + amulet(115)

5x ascended trinkets = 543 healing power
-2x rings(206) + 2x accessories(181) + amulet(126) + 2x omni fine infusions(10) + 4x fine infusions(20)

pretty big difference, as i’ve survived countless times in wvw and dungeons by less than 50hp, where that extra 82 healing power made a difference when i used my heals.

not arguing for either want or need, but i’m saying from my experience, it is quite nice to have those extra stats regardless of want or need

[edit]
showing my work for transparency
yes, there is no cleric’s ascended backpiece, but i can still upgrade it with a fine infusion, hence the 6th +5 healing power infusion

“Want’ is a pretty important aspect of MMORPGs. There were no big bads to slay in Ultima Online, for example. If you didn’t “want” to own a huge house or to be the most detested ganker on your server or a boat with which to explore Sosaria’s vast oceans, or some other meta-goal, you ran out of stuff to do pretty quickly.

We were sold, by Arenanet marketing, a game of “want” as well. Grinding is out, they said, BiS items rain from the heavens, so you’re free to pursue goals like acquiring the gear skins you want. What a nice little bit of PR that was.

RebelYell.7132:

We were sold, by Arenanet marketing, a game of “want” as well. Grinding is out, they said, BiS items rain from the heavens, so you’re free to pursue goals like acquiring the gear skins you want. What a nice little bit of PR that was.

Citation Requested?

There were two lines from two interviews both before the game was out that referred to vertical progression and what Anet wanted to do with it. It wasn’t in any advertising campaign, but people did have very lofty ideals about what they wanted to do with the game.

And if the player base could have gotten behind that, enjoyed cosmetic only rewards, we wouldn’t have seen ascended gear or fractals, at least not in the form they’re currently in (though I do believe ascended gear was always part of the plan).

In the end, the weight of the playerbase who required something to "work’ towards won out. The people who aren’t in that crowd blame Anet for backing down on their ads and what they said.

It’s true that some game design aspects did change but that happens with every MMO. Its’ not true any of this stuff was talked about in the manifesto, nor did it appear in any Guild Wars 2 advertising per se, unless you consider interviews ads.

There was so much said early on that changed but people don’t quote that stuff. They only quote the two times that someone said there wouldn’t be vertical progression, in interviews that most of the fan base would have never seen in the first place.

Vayne.8563:

There were two lines from two interviews both before the game was out that referred to vertical progression and what Anet wanted to do with it. It wasn’t in any advertising campaign, but people did have very lofty ideals about what they wanted to do with the game.

And if the player base could have gotten behind that, enjoyed cosmetic only rewards, we wouldn’t have seen ascended gear or fractals, at least not in the form they’re currently in (though I do believe ascended gear was always part of the plan).

In the end, the weight of the playerbase who required something to "work’ towards won out. The people who aren’t in that crowd blame Anet for backing down on their ads and what they said.

It’s true that some game design aspects did change but that happens with every MMO. Its’ not true any of this stuff was talked about in the manifesto, nor did it appear in any Guild Wars 2 advertising per se, unless you consider interviews ads.

There was so much said early on that changed but people don’t quote that stuff. They only quote the two times that someone said there wouldn’t be vertical progression, in interviews that most of the fan base would have never seen in the first place.

I think a lot of dedicated fans who have followed interviews, watched the advertisement, feel lied to in order to make a quick buck. Everyone who was passionately anticipating the game is now seeing the contradictory statements of the game philosophy.

I can’t speak for everyone, but this is what I believe is the reason for the mass complaints on the forums. Most forum goer’s are passionate gamers and they are the ones that stick with the game.

You can just compare the stats differences if you want to compare the items only. However, the argument is more tied towards the impact on your character and ignoring base stats will be misleading.

Lets says you have 98 points as a base stat. Exotic gives you 2 extra points while extended gives you 4. Comparing the items themselves shows a 50% difference. Including base stats it is actually 2%. Huge difference.

I suggest learning about the law of diminishing returns. Essentially you reach a point where 1 point of a stat is not necessarily worth the same as if you had less of it. Just look at toughness which has been discussed on these forums and reddit a lot.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Vayne.8563:

There were two lines from two interviews both before the game was out that referred to vertical progression and what Anet wanted to do with it. It wasn’t in any advertising campaign, but people did have very lofty ideals about what they wanted to do with the game.

And if the player base could have gotten behind that, enjoyed cosmetic only rewards, we wouldn’t have seen ascended gear or fractals, at least not in the form they’re currently in (though I do believe ascended gear was always part of the plan).

In the end, the weight of the playerbase who required something to "work’ towards won out. The people who aren’t in that crowd blame Anet for backing down on their ads and what they said.

It’s true that some game design aspects did change but that happens with every MMO. Its’ not true any of this stuff was talked about in the manifesto, nor did it appear in any Guild Wars 2 advertising per se, unless you consider interviews ads.

There was so much said early on that changed but people don’t quote that stuff. They only quote the two times that someone said there wouldn’t be vertical progression, in interviews that most of the fan base would have never seen in the first place.

I think a lot of dedicated fans who have followed interviews, watched the advertisement, feel lied to in order to make a quick buck. Everyone who was passionately anticipating the game is now seeing the contradictory statements of the game philosophy.

I can’t speak for everyone, but this is what I believe is the reason for the mass complaints on the forums. Most forum goer’s are passionate gamers and they are the ones that stick with the game.

Look at the language….“make a quick buck?”. Really? Does anyone put years of investment into an MMO to make a quick buck? You mean that investment means more to you than to them? Did you put up your money? Did you put more time and energy into following it than they did into building it?

If Anet changed something,. they didn’t do it wily nily to make a quick buck. They did it because they felt it would improve the game. And if you think otherwise, I don’t know what to say to you.

CobaltSixty.1542:

When you take into account every character’s base stats, the increase from ascended gear (over exotic) is even less significant.

Just using the power attribute as an example and only berserker’s armour and jewellery:

Exotic items give about 1692 power (916 base + 776 exotics)
Ascended items give about 1749 power (916 base + 833 ascended)

(1749/1692)*100 = 103.36%

Full ascended gear gives less than 4% increase in power over exotic gear.

Then factor in huge potential gains in +power from trait points and food etc. and the difference between exotic and ascended gear becomes even less significant.

And what’s the difference going to be when the full Ascended armour and weapon set comes out? When just the jewelry gives ‘only’ a 4% difference, imagine how much difference a full set of Ascended is going to make once it releases.

I NEED COOKIES RIGHT NOW

runs to the store to buy cookies

I NEED ASCENDED RIGHT NOW

runs to the store to buy gems for ascended amulet

I don’t see the problem.

Ascended armors give very miniscule ‘advantage’ so why the need to implement them in the first place? Some of the arguments here make it sound like Anet just added some more exotics with a different colored fonts. We can sugarcoat it via semantics (needs vs wants) or diminish its value via math, but a gain is a gain regardless.

What purpose do these ascended items serve really? And if they hardly do anything as a higher equipment tier, why even add them to the game? At this point, I’m only being more and more convinced that adding them was a poor decision.

Milennin.4825:

CobaltSixty.1542:

When you take into account every character’s base stats, the increase from ascended gear (over exotic) is even less significant.

Just using the power attribute as an example and only berserker’s armour and jewellery:

Exotic items give about 1692 power (916 base + 776 exotics)
Ascended items give about 1749 power (916 base + 833 ascended)

(1749/1692)*100 = 103.36%

Full ascended gear gives less than 4% increase in power over exotic gear.

Then factor in huge potential gains in +power from trait points and food etc. and the difference between exotic and ascended gear becomes even less significant.

And what’s the difference going to be when the full Ascended armour and weapon set comes out? When just the jewelry gives ‘only’ a 4% difference, imagine how much difference a full set of Ascended is going to make once it releases.

Probably about 6-7%.

And you can have that extra 3-4% if you’re willing to give up your runes. Runes alone can give you +165 power, about as much as you’ll get from your ascended gear.

Leo Paul.1659:

Ascended armors give very miniscule ‘advantage’ so why the need to implement them in the first place? Some of the arguments here make it sound like Anet just added some more exotics with a different colored fonts. We can sugarcoat it via semantics (needs vs wants) or diminish its value via math, but a gain is a gain regardless.

What purpose do these ascended items serve really? And if they hardly do anything as a higher equipment tier, why even add them to the game? At this point, I’m only being more and more convinced that adding them was a poor decision.

Because sometimes a compromise is called for. The questions are these…how many people left the game because of them? How many people would have left the game without them? I don’t think we’ll ever know.

But Anet apparently saw a lot of dissatisfied people that wanted “end game”. That takes a lot of time to make. Content was burned through fast. And Anet was scrambling for an answer. Any really “good” answer would have taken a lot more time. How many people would have left during that time?

Anet, in my mind, was caught between a rock and a hard place. The really believed most people would be satisfied with just cosmetic gear upgrades. And most Guild Wars 1 players certainly would have. But this game isn’t just made of GW 1 players. We have people coming in from other MMOs, who are used to numbers going up. Take that away from them and they feel that their character isn’t going anywhere. It’s a psychological thing.

Anet didn’t want to add a stat increase that would completely break the game, but they had to do something (in my opinion) to keep those people in the game. After all, more people in the game doesn’t usually hurt most MMOs. And fractals seem to have been popular with certain people. A lot of people played a lot of them.

So yeah, the upgrade is low, because Anet had to appease both groups of people. There are people at the edges of both groups, the die hards, who did leave. There’s no question about it. But I’m pretty sure more people stayed because of ascended weapons than left because of them.

you don t even need armor…you can play without evading everythng and never missing your target….

Or YOU NEED best items in order to have the SAME CHANCES of your full geared opponent to win in a fair fight.

Its like OP never played a mmorpg…
OFCOURSE you NEED best equipment……its one of the basic concepts of mmorpgs since release.
And obviously ANET knows it.

Well if they want to make a place like WvW completely fair then they need to separate it and make it play like sPvP: everything unlocked, armor, weapons, skills, traits, etc.
Then there will be no more need in WvW for those extra stats. Say what you want about need/want but unless you like to zerg and plan to stick with herd; those extra few stats do add up. Even if it is ultimately about skill, those stats can make the difference.
PvE is not as demanding because mobs are pretty stupid/slow in the intelligence department. But to be more efficient in dungeons and guild missions the stats certainly won’t hurt.
Want and need go hand in hand inside the realm of a game. When a person feels as though they need something to stay competitive, the difference between the two becomes barely discernible. It’s subjective just like the entire game experience.

You know what i’m grinding right now? Gold and some other whatever currencies just to buy the armor and weapons that LOOKS COOL! Its not like they have the best stats or anything. In fact, I’m just gonna transmute them over to my currently fugly-looking crafted exotic set.

Crafted exotic sets, I shall tell you if you haven’t known by now, are the best value-for-effort end game items available right now.

Some people say its essential that you acquire ascended gears, with have what -around 100 stats difference from crafted exotic- and I say, good luck feeling that difference against Claw of Jormag with like a gazillion HP.

In fact -and this I have proven to be true time and time again on all my level 80 characters- the difference between Tier 6 Rare crafted equipment and Exotic crafted equipment is so frustratingly negligible even against normal mobs (means you can barely feel it), but the only reason I’d still make the transition is because it doesn’t take that much effort.

In other words, it all comes down to… you have to weight the marginal benefits of the next best equipment against the amount of effort you have to put in to acquire it, then decide whether its a want or a need.

If you have all the time in the world and can play the game 24/7, or spare cash to be converted to gem and then to gold, then sure, go ahead, it wouldn’t be much of a sacrifice to your Real Life 1.0 to try and aim for that additional 100 healing.

You don’t need to play the game.

You want to. And given that, you want to get characters geared out like everybody else.

You’re taking things a little too literally, OP. All they are asking for is good game design….

- Certain playstyles and things to do should be worth many times more “loots” than others.

- Loot curves should be curved in a way that makes people want the loot, but doesn’t make them completely uncompetitive.

- Things in the game should generally be fun, not tedious and boring.

When they say they need the dailies, it’s because it’s the most efficient way for many players to get some very hot items…ascended jewelry and mystic coins.. and most people find them rather tedious and boring since you can’t finish them in tandem with normal activities.

Ayrilana.1396:

I completely agree.

The game is grindy because people choose to make it that way.

People choose to make it grindy because the game rewards grinding.

So you say that you don’t need to have that stuff, you just want to?
Ok, you don’t need to grind, you just want to have exotic/ascended gear.
Ok, you don’t need to have ascended/exotic gear for pve/wvw, you just want to win.
Ok, you don’t need to win at pve wvw all the time, you just want to have fun.
Ok, you don’t need to have fun, you just want to enjoy the game.
Ok, you don’t need to enjoy the game… just quit and go do something else.

CobaltSixty.1542:

Probably about 6-7%.

And you can have that extra 3-4% if you’re willing to give up your runes. Runes alone can give you +165 power, about as much as you’ll get from your ascended gear.

Wrong.
If you compare Ascended trinkets you’ll notice they are about 10% better than Exotics. So why should we assume that armour and weapons are going to give a much lesser boost over Exotics than the trinkets do?
On top of having ~10% higher stats, the armour bonus and damage bonus will be increased as well (something that trinkets don’t do).
If I give up my runes to make up for the loss in Power I’d lose group support (using Dwayna).

On the topic of need vs. want:

-You don’t need to play the game, but you want to.
-You don’t need to level up in the game, but you want to.
-You don’t need to move your character, but you want to.
-You don’t need to get gear for your characters, but you want to.
-You don’t need to kill things ingame, but you want to.
-You don’t need to do events, but you want to.
-You don’t need to pick up loot, but you want to.

List could go on and on. In the end, nothing you do really needs to be done. You only do it because you want to.

I think the need want thing has nothing to do with whether you want to play the game or not. If you don’t want to play the game, everything else in the list is pointless. But you ARE playing the game. Once you’re playing the game, you have to ask yourself, how will this trinket, this thing that I get improve, really improve my game experience.

For PvE’ers at least, it makes stuff easier to kill. How much easier? So far I can’t say I’ve seen a difference. I have knowledge that my stats are higher, but stuff I killed before I still kill. Stuff that could kill me before, still kills me.

I don’t need that stuff, because the content isn’t gated around that stuff. That’s why I don’t need it. I don’t need it to access content. In other games, by contrast, you would need it to access content.

So within the boundaries of playing the game, in some games gear is required by the game to access content and in Guild Wars 2 it’s not.

Using the need want thing to say you don’t need to play the game is disingenuous.

LordByron.8369:

Its like OP never played a mmorpg…
OFCOURSE you NEED best equipment……its one of the basic concepts of mmorpgs since release.

Okay, just stop and explain why “of course you need it”. Saying it is easy, explaining it is harder.

I get where it’s a subconscious thing, people instinctively think about it as needed, “just in case” but I actually have found . . . well, I’m simply not that much stronger unless I Infuse with Agony Resist. As Vayne put it, things which drag my ranger all over the landscape still do it.

(That includes rampant hordes of angry opposed-server WvW players. Yeah, Ascended is not going to save my sorry behind from 30+ people no matter if they were using basic (White) weapons or not.)

What I really need it for is higher Fractals. And I kind of actually do want it now, if only so I don’t get pasted in the Volcano by that grawl. However, I need to be quite patient to get my Infusions all lined up for Agony Resist.

(Worth noting I chose . . . poorly on the amulet I got which had a Utility Infusion. Hey, look ma, no Agony Resist for my Neck! -headdesk- )

Vanthian.9267:

Jski.6180:

@ Vanthian.9267
Sry not to many are going to read what you posted its a bit too much for non math major. The point was that even if with the numbers as they are will not excludes you from content in the game making all Ascended WANT and not NEED.

This is the point of this thread beyond that your getting off-topic badly.

It is still very much on topic. The higher numbers will be needed and required eventually. Do they scale FotM with Masterwork Gear in mind? No, they do not. They are designing the high levels for Ascended.

You can say that, “But… but… that is only one place in the game!”. That is very true, at the moment. That does not lend towards the future in which they have stated that more Agony bosses will filter their way into the game at some point. Which means that eventually Ascended items will be needed for the game (as it is now).

My first example still stands. Why would you stand around eating nothing but Jelly sandwiches when you can be having a 3 full course meal?

Also, taking out the base stats shows the pure increase from Exotic to Ascended and not the buffed base numbers. Consider this simplified version.

Exotic gear gives: 5 Power
Ascended gives: 7 Power
So the increase is: 40%

Now, say base stats where 10 each.
Then you would have…
Exotic gear + Base = 15 Power
Ascended gear + Base = 17 Power
Which comes to: 13.33333%

As you can see, the second example is miss leading in the actual increase of the single items power. The second example is a overall increase. Very different things.

Please note: When presenting a percentage as fact while using a formula that gives something completely different than what you are trying to prove is a way of trying to sway a crowd. Politicians and polls do it all the time.

So when talking about a Percent Increase of a item; show the increase form item to item… not the overall increase or the difference percentage between the two.

Actually you have it backwards. The first example is misleading. The percentage difference between items is irrelevant when comparing the impact they have when equipped. An item that has 30 points is 200% better than an item that has 10 points. The impact of this change radically changes when the base stat is included. You must include the base stat when determining the impact of the character between the two items.

If you have 100 base points then the difference is 18.18% [(130-110)/110]. If you have 200 base points then the difference is 9.52% [(230-210)/210]. If you gave 300 base points then the difference is 6.45% [(330-310)/310)]. I think you can see my point. The reasoning behind this is called diminishing returns. As you add more points, they gradually have less of an impact.

This is why going by just the stat differences between exotics and ascended by themselves is misleading. It doesn’t show the impact that it will actually have on your character. This is what the argument is as arguing about the stat difference between the items is pointless.

I’ll also add that an item that gives a 4% increase does not go to 8% when another item with a 4% increase is added. It doesn’t work like that. I know you didn’t state that in the post but this is more for everyone in general since I wouldn’t be surprised if someone jumped to that conclusion. I just don’t want to see someone claiming that equipping all 12 slots (minus weapons) with items that have a 4% increase yields 48% overall.

You cant seperate want, need, force and grind. They are all connected even if you (OP) like it or not.

The core of MMOs is wanting to improve your character. With want comes need, need is often connected to forced duties or grind. If you want to improve your character to give it top preformance along with your skill you NEED ascended gear even if you dont feel like grinding for it.

There is a limited way of obtaining it but it is a must if you want BiS gear for your character. It’s only optional in the open world. For instances, WvW and fractals you will want it to be most beneficial to your group (you honestly dont want worse gear when you can obtain better).

You are forced to do the daily each day to not fall behind, even if you dont want to, there is no option to catch up on missed dailies at the end of the week. 7 dailies per week would be better, they could all be done on sunday before reset. Less stress, more options day by day.

You are forced to do dailies to get laurels if you want ascended necks, no other way.

Optional things are cosmetical things. Things that increase your stats and lets your character preform better are not optional.

ZenonSeth.5739:

Ayrilana.1396:

I completely agree.

The game is grindy because people choose to make it that way.

People choose to make it grindy because the game rewards grinding.

So you say that you don’t need to have that stuff, you just want to?
Ok, you don’t need to grind, you just want to have exotic/ascended gear.
Ok, you don’t need to have ascended/exotic gear for pve/wvw, you just want to win.
Ok, you don’t need to win at pve wvw all the time, you just want to have fun.
Ok, you don’t need to have fun, you just want to enjoy the game.
Ok, you don’t need to enjoy the game… just quit and go do something else.

You’re distorting what I said with your personal bias. You’re under the assumption that gear is everything. Exotics are easy to get without a grind. Ascended is only a grind if you decide you want them right now. The difference between then will not make a difference in whether you win or lose in WvW.

I’m not going to address the rest of your statements like the one about fun and enjoyment since they’re foolish. They serve no point other than being random nonsense posing as an argument.

SneakyErvin.3056:

You cant seperate want, need, force and grind. They are all connected even if you (OP) like it or not.

The core of MMOs is wanting to improve your character. With want comes need, need is often connected to forced duties or grind. If you want to improve your character to give it top preformance along with your skill you NEED ascended gear even if you dont feel like grinding for it.

There is a limited way of obtaining it but it is a must if you want BiS gear for your character. It’s only optional in the open world. For instances, WvW and fractals you will want it to be most beneficial to your group (you honestly dont want worse gear when you can obtain better).

You are forced to do the daily each day to not fall behind, even if you dont want to, there is no option to catch up on missed dailies at the end of the week. 7 dailies per week would be better, they could all be done on sunday before reset. Less stress, more options day by day.

You are forced to do dailies to get laurels if you want ascended necks, no other way.

Optional things are cosmetical things. Things that increase your stats and lets your character preform better are not optional.

Okay…this is where some of us different. There are people playing this game that would rather have a cosmetic upgrade than something that gives them better stats. You’re right, everyone wants to “improve” their character but not everyone sees stats as the only or even best way to improve them.

I see the best way to improve my character as getting better at playing the game. The stats, they’re nice, but I think I’ll be a better player being able to get through some of the harder content with less stats, not more.

Because you thing stats are “the” way to progress, you think that you need these items. I don’t see stats as “the” way to progress, so I don’t. I’m quite happy to play my characters that don’t have any ascended gear at all.

Vayne.8563:

SneakyErvin.3056:

You cant seperate want, need, force and grind. They are all connected even if you (OP) like it or not.

The core of MMOs is wanting to improve your character. With want comes need, need is often connected to forced duties or grind. If you want to improve your character to give it top preformance along with your skill you NEED ascended gear even if you dont feel like grinding for it.

There is a limited way of obtaining it but it is a must if you want BiS gear for your character. It’s only optional in the open world. For instances, WvW and fractals you will want it to be most beneficial to your group (you honestly dont want worse gear when you can obtain better).

You are forced to do the daily each day to not fall behind, even if you dont want to, there is no option to catch up on missed dailies at the end of the week. 7 dailies per week would be better, they could all be done on sunday before reset. Less stress, more options day by day.

You are forced to do dailies to get laurels if you want ascended necks, no other way.

Optional things are cosmetical things. Things that increase your stats and lets your character preform better are not optional.

Okay…this is where some of us different. There are people playing this game that would rather have a cosmetic upgrade than something that gives them better stats. You’re right, everyone wants to “improve” their character but not everyone sees stats as the only or even best way to improve them.

I see the best way to improve my character as getting better at playing the game. The stats, they’re nice, but I think I’ll be a better player being able to get through some of the harder content with less stats, not more.

Because you thing stats are “the” way to progress, you think that you need these items. I don’t see stats as “the” way to progress, so I don’t. I’m quite happy to play my characters that don’t have any ascended gear at all.

No I’m saying stats are the only way to make your character optimal. No matter how you see it, you cant be optimal without the BiS gear. You can be good and beat other people who have optimal setups since their skill is lacking, but you yourself is not optimal till you have the best possible stats to compliment your skill.

Thats not my opinion, thats just the defenition of optimal. You arent optimal if you run in exo gear, since there is more optimal gear out there.

Cosmetic gear is however optional, since it’s not needed for optimal preformance. It’s fun and all and nice to look at, but it can take whatever time it wants before you get it, since it wont decide your characters victory or defeat.

People say x more % crit damage/toughness/vit/pow etc wont make or break a fight. But it can, it all depends on how much better you are vs whoever you face. Vs some its overkill and not needed, vs others its the skin on your teeth.

I prefer the overkill approach vs easier opponents, it means I come prepared for whatever I get pitted against.

It is however up to a person if they want optimal gear or not. But the optional choise is not in wanting it, its in not wanting it.

SneakyErvin.3056:

Vayne.8563:

SneakyErvin.3056:

You cant seperate want, need, force and grind. They are all connected even if you (OP) like it or not.

The core of MMOs is wanting to improve your character. With want comes need, need is often connected to forced duties or grind. If you want to improve your character to give it top preformance along with your skill you NEED ascended gear even if you dont feel like grinding for it.

There is a limited way of obtaining it but it is a must if you want BiS gear for your character. It’s only optional in the open world. For instances, WvW and fractals you will want it to be most beneficial to your group (you honestly dont want worse gear when you can obtain better).

You are forced to do the daily each day to not fall behind, even if you dont want to, there is no option to catch up on missed dailies at the end of the week. 7 dailies per week would be better, they could all be done on sunday before reset. Less stress, more options day by day.

You are forced to do dailies to get laurels if you want ascended necks, no other way.

Optional things are cosmetical things. Things that increase your stats and lets your character preform better are not optional.

Okay…this is where some of us different. There are people playing this game that would rather have a cosmetic upgrade than something that gives them better stats. You’re right, everyone wants to “improve” their character but not everyone sees stats as the only or even best way to improve them.

I see the best way to improve my character as getting better at playing the game. The stats, they’re nice, but I think I’ll be a better player being able to get through some of the harder content with less stats, not more.

Because you thing stats are “the” way to progress, you think that you need these items. I don’t see stats as “the” way to progress, so I don’t. I’m quite happy to play my characters that don’t have any ascended gear at all.

No I’m saying stats are the only way to make your character optimal. No matter how you see it, you cant be optimal without the BiS gear. You can be good and beat other people who have optimal setups since their skill is lacking, but you yourself is not optimal till you have the best possible stats to compliment your skill.

Thats not my opinion, thats just the defenition of optimal. You arent optimal if you run in exo gear, since there is more optimal gear out there.

Cosmetic gear is however optional, since it’s not needed for optimal preformance. It’s fun and all and nice to look at, but it can take whatever time it wants before you get it, since it wont decide your characters victory or defeat.

People say x more % crit damage/toughness/vit/pow etc wont make or break a fight. But it can, it all depends on how much better you are vs whoever you face. Vs some its overkill and not needed, vs others its the skin on your teeth.

I prefer the overkill approach vs easier opponents, it means I come prepared for whatever I get pitted against.

It is however up to a person if they want optimal gear or not. But the optional choise is not in wanting it, its in not wanting it.

If all you think about is winning fights, and optimal characters (by stats) then there’s nothing else for me to say to you. Other people really do get what I’m talking about.

People who play games like Skyrim or Dragon Age, they don’t worry about the same type of optimal you do. This is where the RPG part of the game really gets lost in the math. The fact that you see this as the only way to be optimal means to me that we’re playing very different games.

I just don’t care about stats all that much, and never will. But when my character looks the way I want him/her too, that’s optimal to me.