The downed state - Hurting the game?
That all being said, If anet were to add a “hardmode” where there wasn’t a downed state in dungeons, gave an endurance debuff for less dodging, and bumped up the rewards I would be all for it. Something like that would make us all have to rethink group composition, gear choices, and would probably make skipping extremely difficult in certain dungeons. It would certainly add something to the dungeons after 3 years of the same thing day after day.
So in which dungeons skipping is hard when you have a thief?
Gw1 had no downed state, no zerkers and you still had a meta where diversity was non-existant. Either you brought the build with proper skills, attribute spread, consumables and split how were told or you were kicked on spot.
You keep insisting that zerker gear has no “downs”. It has, you die more easily. People running it succesfully just know to avoid this. Don´t get me wrong, I really dislike GW2 combat with the dungeon stacking and all. But if you change the game there will be a new best gear people will flock to, nothing changed. I wonder what that whole zerker complaining is really about. I suspect it is 10% trinity fans finally wanting to get their beloved, dusty system in here and 90% bad players who cannot manage damage mitigation in zerker, feel left out and demand better players having their toys removed.
Or simply role players who can’t find the use for their tanky characters.
downed state isnt about beserker, its about teamwork clutch play, Rallying is actually a very good mechanic in pve.
You are filled with too much hate, your entire theory, is based around a hate for zerkers, when every single player gets downed.
Its odd though you want to remove one of the biggest means of support, because you want the game to have more support.
skilled zerkers can also avoid going down anyhow, so really you wouldnt be changing anything, but crippling the average players greatly.
I’m against the downed state in WvW. In PvE or PvP, it’s not important.
In WvW, it gives an advantage to the bigger zerg because they have more people, therefore they rez downed people faster. Doesn’t matter if you’re better, as long as they have the numbers they just chain rez their people and ultimately overwhelm you.
Gw1 had no downed state, no zerkers and you still had a meta where diversity was non-existant. Either you brought the build with proper skills, attribute spread, consumables and split how were told or you were kicked on spot.
-If that was in fact the case you must have played in the wrong guild and I hope that’s a joke, I had loads of fun coming up with all kinds of crazy varieties of different builds in gw1 (not to mention varieties of group combinations with heros). There was never a time i felt i was seriously lacking in dps because I was messing around with a new build combination.
-Where as in gw2 I have felt that many times running non-zerker gear. (I have yet to try nomads, but I’m scared to see how little damage i would do)
Also concerning downed states, why not keep them and just make it so rally doesnt happen? That way they don’t just magically get up from trash mobs, and it does actually hurt the group dps by getting downed. While at the same time still allowing others to rez if someone made a mistake.
downed state isnt about beserker, its about teamwork clutch play, Rallying is actually a very good mechanic in pve.
You are filled with too much hate, your entire theory, is based around a hate for zerkers, when every single player gets downed.
Its odd though you want to remove one of the biggest means of support, because you want the game to have more support.
skilled zerkers can also avoid going down anyhow, so really you wouldnt be changing anything, but crippling the average players greatly.
Not really. It’s not about rallying up mates it’s about killing weak enemies to get up.
I noticed that this mechanic is a bit weird when playing alone in PvE and fighting multiple enemies.
For example:
When you drop low and you fight a champ and a weak NPC you make sure you DON’T finish the weak NPC. So when you get downed you can finish the weak NPC and get up again to continue fighting the champ.
Or another example:
When you drop low and fight an enemy that applies bleeding to you. It’s better if you get downed first and then finish the enemy than killing the enemy and then get downed.
In such situation I somehow feel like this is a very, very weird mechanic which even might reward bad plays.
Maybe they could change it that when there are multiple enemies only killing the highest rank rezzes you (Champ > Elite > Vet > Normal) and getting downed right after killing someone with no other enemies arround should also rez you.
But that would make things too complicated I think.
downed state isnt about beserker, its about teamwork clutch play, Rallying is actually a very good mechanic in pve.
You are filled with too much hate, your entire theory, is based around a hate for zerkers, when every single player gets downed.
Its odd though you want to remove one of the biggest means of support, because you want the game to have more support.
skilled zerkers can also avoid going down anyhow, so really you wouldnt be changing anything, but crippling the average players greatly.Not really. It’s not about rallying up mates it’s about killing weak enemies to get up.
I noticed that this mechanic is a bit weird when playing alone in PvE and fighting multiple enemies.
For example:
When you drop low and you fight a champ and a weak NPC you make sure you DON’T finish the weak NPC. So when you get downed you can finish the weak NPC and get up again to continue fighting the champ.Or another example:
When you drop low and fight an enemy that applies bleeding to you. It’s better if you get downed first and then finish the enemy than killing the enemy and then get downed.In such situation I somehow feel like this is a very, very weird mechanic which even might reward bad plays.
Maybe they could change it that when there are multiple enemies only killing the highest rank rezzes you (Champ > Elite > Vet > Normal) and getting downed right after killing someone with no other enemies arround should also rez you.
But that would make things too complicated I think.
if people have enough planning strategy and sustain to keep weak enemies around, team up on the weak enemy that you know your friend has tagged, and kill it before any of the enemies can kill said enemy, then i would describe that as playing with coordination.
Sure it can happen randomly, but its not reliable randomly, and thus not something that people can depend on.
It would be just as easy to blind the enemies and not go down to begin with, or have some one blast a water field, or dodge.
And i really dont see the situations pop up often, where people are dying to enemies that they can easily kill in downstate. Most deaths occur from dangerous enemies/situations where there arent many disposable enemies, or there are so many that they can kill you in downed state pretty fast. In those cases, its either everyone reviving you, or targeting and burning the enemy that you tagged, hoping to beat the clock, or both at once. Which is coordination, soo.
downed state isnt about beserker, its about teamwork clutch play, Rallying is actually a very good mechanic in pve.
You are filled with too much hate, your entire theory, is based around a hate for zerkers, when every single player gets downed.
Its odd though you want to remove one of the biggest means of support, because you want the game to have more support.
skilled zerkers can also avoid going down anyhow, so really you wouldnt be changing anything, but crippling the average players greatly.Not really. It’s not about rallying up mates it’s about killing weak enemies to get up.
I noticed that this mechanic is a bit weird when playing alone in PvE and fighting multiple enemies.
For example:
When you drop low and you fight a champ and a weak NPC you make sure you DON’T finish the weak NPC. So when you get downed you can finish the weak NPC and get up again to continue fighting the champ.Or another example:
When you drop low and fight an enemy that applies bleeding to you. It’s better if you get downed first and then finish the enemy than killing the enemy and then get downed.In such situation I somehow feel like this is a very, very weird mechanic which even might reward bad plays.
Maybe they could change it that when there are multiple enemies only killing the highest rank rezzes you (Champ > Elite > Vet > Normal) and getting downed right after killing someone with no other enemies arround should also rez you.
But that would make things too complicated I think.
if people have enough planning strategy and sustain to keep weak enemies around, team up on the weak enemy that you know your friend has tagged, and kill it before any of the enemies can kill said enemy, then i would describe that as playing with coordination.
Sure it can happen randomly, but its not reliable randomly, and thus not something that people can depend on.
It would be just as easy to blind the enemies and not go down to begin with, or have some one blast a water field, or dodge.
And i really dont see the situations pop up often, where people are dying to enemies that they can easily kill in downstate. Most deaths occur from dangerous enemies/situations where there arent many disposable enemies, or there are so many that they can kill you in downed state pretty fast. In those cases, its either everyone reviving you, or targeting and burning the enemy that you tagged, hoping to beat the clock, or both at once. Which is coordination, soo.
Well I was talking about soloing in open world stuff. But that can also occur in dungeons I guess.
Gear is of course heavily tied into what a ‘build’ is. E.g. As you said, if I build in my traits and weapon choices for conditions, then whether or not I choose condi damage gear makes a huge difference on my builds effectiveness. I would personally not split ‘build’ and gear up, gear is part of the build.
Part of, yes, but it is not the build. Yet, this is what the anti-zerker arguments assume. Promoting a more bulky gear meta is no more advantageous than the current gear meta. It’s just different
I promote a means to provide some real consequences for running a glassy spec, where there currently is none. This would lead to lfg posts being more divided, but that also means that they would be more varied! Not just ‘zerker only’. This is a good thing. There will always be players who shun others, that cannot be prevented, and I don’t believe that “more” players would be shunned. Yes we would see the meta shift, and knights may become the ‘optimal’ choice for direct damage, but that makes some sense at least, as it is a balance of damage and defense, a middle ground, rather than the current meta which makes very little sense.
I would have to disagree that there are no consequences to running glass now. And the trade-off — survivability for damage — of glass v. bulky gear makes perfect sense. ANet agreed that the high end of direct damage needed to be tuned down in PvE. They changed crit % to Ferocity, which removed most of the boost direct damage glass received via Ascended. They’ve also nerfed might, which affects high crit builds more than any other build. If there is an issue with the trade-off, that’s the way to address it — not making survival gear more efficient, which is what your suggestion would promote.
Diversity inside each profession is what, in terms of build diversity. It does exist already of course, but it is not promoted due to the zerker meta having no real consequence. Of course gw2 has more diversity than trinity mmos, but it isn’t promoted in PvE, which means in most scenarios it may as well have not been there in the first place.
So, your dungeon parties don’t use reflect, aegis, retaliation, blinds, chills, stuns, cleansing, swiftness, might stacking, etc. in different situations where appropriate? If that’s the case, then this is a function of a bare minimal approach to dungeon completion promoted by dungeon obsolescence.
Of course it is correct that any gear set can complete content, although as stated earlier, zerker is so superior compared to other sets, that it doesn’t make sense to run anything else most of the time. Also, it seems that you think I want dungeons to be substantially harder, when in fact, all I want is there to be a real consequence for running a glassy spec (you die). Therefore, the options of “anything goes” parties will not be affected at all.
From this comment, it would seem you’ve not done dungeons in “anything goes” groups much. Players in varied specs with sub-optimal comps complete dungeons now. Some of them get downed a lot, now. Removing the downed state would not be done selectively. Your proposal would also affect the myriad players who already use some survival gear and still have issues with survival. Now, maybe the less-skilled shouldn’t be able to complete explorable dungeons. That seemed like the original design intent. However, it’s been the state of dungeons for 2,5 years now, and that’s a different argument than the one you’re making.
Stacking does not take coordination, and does not take skill. So where does that leave the stacking method of fighting? The majority of people I know who play the game all believe (at least partially) that stacking is more of an exploit than anything else.
The exploit — if there is one — is in LoS stacking. If fighting in proximity does not take skill, what would? Free-lancing and kiting is the alternative to fighting in proximity. You’re either close to each other, or you’re not. How is that greater coordination or skill?
(other comments above, in italics.)
-If that was in fact the case you must have played in the wrong guild and I hope that’s a joke, I had loads of fun coming up with all kinds of crazy varieties of different builds in gw1 (not to mention varieties of group combinations with heros). There was never a time i felt i was seriously lacking in dps because I was messing around with a new build combination.
-Where as in gw2 I have felt that many times running non-zerker gear. (I have yet to try nomads, but I’m scared to see how little damage i would do)
The OP is clearly talking about speedruns, not your usual gameplay. I’m pretty sure he would never compare gw2 dungeon with let’s say gw1 mission which was nothing more than a personal story done in a group.
What’s more, no one forces anyone to join those elitist groups, it’s people like OP who click “join” or “merge” buttons. If you want to play however you want, just make your own group (like those zerkers), play with friends or participate in any other content in this game where you cannot be punished for going with whatever build you want (even naked).
You never lacked dps in gw1 because each casual group had almost always 2 healers, that left 6 spots for dps characters and you were not able to increase or decrease your health/armour with just a gear. And please don’t bring gw1 heroes to a discussion about pugging.
Anet made a serious mistake by introducing stats to gw2. This game would have been much better without them.
1st: Zerk isn’t OP, it’s having perma invulnerability through dodges, blinds, aegis, more blinds, stunds/dazes, interupts and so on, wich is OP. The fact the only logical choice for gear being zerk when not taking dmg at all should be clear. I’d think this would be a better perspective…
Yes there are certainly some other mechanics that need a look over for balance issues.
The moment you go down, you either failed yourself OR the team failed to provide active defence.
Exactly, and if you’ve failed or your team has failed, there should be some consequence aside from the small loss in dps uptime while you’re being revived.
Of courese there are a lot of different options reducing dmg. making the downed state missable for etruly experienced runners, but it would destory the wannabee zerker rings…
Destroying the wannabee zerkers would of course be a good thing. It should be a build that takes serious skill to run.
Most pre-made teams wouldn’t be affected much(if there is any effect at all) by removing downed state. People can run with low man parties anyway and if there are some mistakes they can afford a man or two perma downed and still be significantly faster than pugs and people actually going down in the first place isn’t that common.
When most “toxic zerker players” adapt( either get better or run more survivable builds), run times will just be a bit longer but most survivability comes from traits and utilities anyway so you don’t really get rid of the “toxic zerker meta”.
All you will force players to do(assuming it is really needed by the player for the content) is something like getting Vigorous Precision on guards, getting Feline Grace for thieves, running x/F on eles etc. The changes to what people are able to get away with will be insignificant and other gear/runes still wont be attractive at all outside berserker+scholar runes.
The majority of dungeon runners will just complain day one because of the change and how unforgiving dungeons are.
And while you do that you will just kitten casual runners(who weren’t running the “toxic zerker meta” in the first place) who suddenly can’t finish runs anymore or take extra 10-15 minutes per path to finish making running dungeons not worth their time in the first place.
TBH your proposal would probably backfire and make the dungeon running experience more toxic for the typical GW2 player lol.
Anet made a serious mistake by introducing stats to gw2. This game would have been much better without them.
While I kind of agree, there’s nothing wrong with stats the way they were handled in GW. The problem in GW2 is that the game was designed around the idea of diversity being more rooted in weapon/skill choice and in profession choice; and no trinity, but ANet adopted a stat system which looks a lot like the stat system used in trinity games. This creates the impression that survival stats ought to fit into a “role,” when that is not their purpose in GW2.
The downed state is not causing the Zerker everything problem. what needs to happen is a rebalencing so that other builds actually become competative. When you have a system where bosses commonly have big attacks that’ll drop ANYONE in one hit if you don’t dodge, vitality/toughness builds cease to be viable because your best chance is to just nuke the boss down before someone runs out of endurance or mistimes a dodge and goes down.
No one is going to take a tank build if it only allows you to at most take 1 more hit than a berzerker but takes twice as long to kill anything making it more likely, not less than a berzerker to die in a long boss fight.
Condition damage also takes way too long to rack up an effective amount of damage. If you can make it so condi specialists can do the same DPS as zerker if they manage their conditions right, that’d be a good start to lessening the zerker problem, AND make classes like the necro desirable for dungeon runs again.
It’d also make condi removal/support builds on classes like guardian more viable if conditions were made more dangerous.
That’s what really needs addressing, fixing the mechanics so that the best tactics for any tough fight is not just “DPS it down as fast as possible before someone in the party dies”.
(edited by Bathos.6341)
I don’t believe the original post made a clear statement about what the problem is that the OP wants to solve. As a result, the discussion is all over the map.
Any MMO is going to have a meta. Heck, even competitive chess has a ‘meta’ (opening moves favored by masters/grandmasters).
I don’t think removing the downed state is going to have enough of a positive effect on the game to warrant all the negatives it would bring.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
I think there is a more correct solution to the problem of hardship in the dungeons, as well as a variety of builds.
Need to add collision mobs (of course only for dungeons). Or increase their AI. I remember very well how difficult it was to pass the dungeon until the players do not become abuse tactic: lure mobs in the corner and quickly kill
As for the downed state, I think it is necessary to change the process of removing from a downed state (Rally). I saw that some people raised this issue
I will describe how I see the addressing this issue
Resurrection should only occur after all nearby enemies defeated, and not after killing any mob (or player).
Now the points as it can be done in different modes.
Open world PvE
Rally possible after killing mobs group (1-5 unit or may be more).
Example: A group can be combined wave of mobs at events. During the event, a wave of mobs (20 units) attacks. The player becomes downed state. He can Rallying, if one group (5 unit) completely destroyed (or completely destroyed all wave of 20 unit).
Dungeons
Here can be rallying only after a complete victory in the local fight (for example three waves 20 units), or can use the same as in the Open world PvE
sPvP
Here you can rallying after winning a local fight. Also, reduce the number of «point of downed penalty» required for complete death to 1 or 2.
Example: there is a fight 2vs2: Team A have 1 downed state in the team B 2 downed state.
In the current version of the game, the following occurs: Players team B finishes player from team A, and rallying together and finish off the remaining players A. Winning the local fight to give 2 killings and capture points.
After changing the mechanics rally: Players B Finishes A team player and start killing alive player team A. Player team A finishes at this time one of the players on the team B and himself becomes a B downed state. Further the situation may move in different ways, such as player team B finishes player team A winning local fight rallying and capture points. In the end, Team B gets 2 kills and a point, the team A – 1 kill. Or situation can turn to another, but this result seems to me more correct (or true).
WvW
In the world vs world always, there are times when the two zergs collide and at both sides falls 5-10 people. Following is an attempt to make a Rally. On the part of Zerg A completely kills 1 person and 10 people are in the downed state Zerg B used immediately receive Rally, or worse get rally killed castle guards (for example).
Here rally should remove at all, only in the resurrection by hand or skill.
In Situation 1vs1 or 5vs5 or other variations Rally should work as described in clause sPvP
Offtop:
If the arenaNet be able to do these changes from a technical point of view, and generally make it, then in WvW and sPvP can add another interesting change.
For example giving extra reward players won in an unequal battle (1vs2, or 30vs50).
In a PvE setting, all you have to look at is the players and the environment. If the environment is not changing, then the players won’t change either. This is what causes the “stale meta” issue in essentially every PvE system. There isn’t a good way to fix this, at least not that I can immediately come up with.
If you mess with the environment, all that does is polarize the players to another build set. You will never please everyone in regards to what the optimal play style is, no matter if it’s a zerker meta, a condi meta, or a tank meta. There will always be a best way, and people will always demand you do it that way.
If you mess with the player, well then you are making nerfs and buffs in order to force people into another build. The people that were happy with how things were are now scorned, and upsetting the already satisfied isn’t a great business model.
If I had to recommend anything, it would be to change the environment to require tactics that are not damage related. These are the mechanics everyone hates and wants to skip, like kiting Mai Trin into red circles.
Whether or not there is a down state really doesn’t matter. If the boss is just a stick of health that throws things at you, the goal will be to throw back harder, faster.
Personally, I would just remove zerker gear from the game entirely.
In other words, I would just stick Vitality onto all gear, as a non-optional stat.
Pretty much in the same way as you have Stamina, as a non-optional stat, in WoW.
People feeling forced to run zerker does not make them (or some of them, at least) happy and it is bad for the game, as it helps facilitate this abysmally dull, effectively compulsory, skip>stack>melee playstyle.
What difference would it make? i mean, in what way is zerker gear with added vitality, different than zerker gear with no vitality? That content would then become easier? So you want this game to be easier? really?
I don’t understand what the fuss about zerker is about. You have a stats set that rewards you for taking high risks (and to the OP: try elemental shaman lvl 49 and see if running zerker is punishing or not).
My only complaint is that the other two glass cannon stat sets (rampager and sinister) are nowhere near as rewarding as berserker.
(and to the OP: try elemental shaman lvl 49 and see if running zerker is punishing or not).
So basically the only time that zerker is punishing is in a lvl 49 fractal where the instability makes it so dodging is bad. Yea… did this make anyone else laugh?
No offense btw I just couldn’t resist..
Well I guess the wannabee zerkers comprise a large part of the LFG at the momenty, when pugging (I pug 95% of all my runs I get 33-50% good runs, with truly experience ppl, I get 33% decent runs, mostlky with 1 or 2 ppl who are still trying to figure out things and I have 15% of nooblets, who stand there pull and get instawiped due to no food, no stacking (might), breaking stack, no protection, blinds, aegis and so on. I also have about 5-10% troll runs with ppl wanting to be carried on x build or lower level chars….
Just saying downed stats removed will make well 60% of my present runs unviable due to idiots. You do not know how often I just stood somewhere with a full zerk ele, blasting away at a boss due to all my guards, warriors and other ppl in party dying due to stupidity. I sometimes manage to pull things off, but not always… killing 66% spider in AC solo isn’t too difficult, but kiting kohler does pose some problems when not having anything to mitigate or stabilize…. somtimes an elemental powder comes ion very handy though..
You’re missing the entire point of this thread…
Doubt so. as you singled out 1 of my posts, not sought to seek the one before. I doubt you read the whole thread. My former post being:
1st: Zerk isn’t OP, it’s having perma invulnerability through dodges, blinds, aegis, more blinds, stunds/dazes, interupts and so on, wich is OP. The fact the only logical choice for gear being zerk when not taking dmg at all should be clear. I’d think this would be a better perspective…
You shouldn’t go down.
The moment you go down, you either failed yourself OR the team failed to provide active defence.
This is also a reason why experienced teams sometimes do take well necro’s. they can provide quite a lot of mitigations, have a AOE well blind, being a nice addition to the elementalists sandstorm and a ~10 second uptime of protection if the necro is patient enough.
Understand 2 elemetalists can completely nullify any and all dps from enemies for ~12-14 seconds, for a tiny loss in DPS. 1`ele startes fire and the other starts earth, together they will stack 15 might and fury when staff build, and 1 does egular MS, lava foint, fire skill #3, icebow, while other starts earth, #2 for the might, waits until mobs are there and casts sandstorm (glyph of storms, earth attunement) then continues fire/icebow. AT that poiint the 2nd ele can pick up the fact sandstorm has nbeen cast and switch to earth and take over, casting sandstorm himself. if you have any necro, the 2 ele’s can run fir e until the necro’s well gives in about 6-8 seconds in the fighteand then use earth after eachother. Giving more freedom to stack might and casting initial bomb while in protection and aoe healing field (well of blood)
Stability stays something for the guard,
Banner buffs would be optimal for DPS. making dungeons also a bit GWEN.Of courese there are a lot of different options reducing dmg. making the downed state missable for etruly experienced runners, but it would destory the wannabee zerker rings…
And IMHO you coud so this kind of things as well on a full nomads group to nullify any incoming dmg, but you would competely waste all 3 stats on armor. Making the choice for active defence and nomads quite a awkward one.
Enjoy.
Forcing a stat down ppls throat is not usefull as the present game makes your mentioned vitality USELESS.With respect to vitaility of course, as it is simple: when you do not get hit you will not need any additional HP now will you? It will not make the game more interesting to play nor will it break the meta ofv using active defence and just nuking everything. with or without stack. If you ever ran a decent speed run you should know the stack is only for buff purposes, and the optimal fighting location is generally created by conincedences. Since the W-GS 3 and the FGS no longer work against walls, or have been nerfed to a point where an icebow is better, the wall stacking meta is just a remnant of the past.
the downed state is a mechanic which allows ppl to learn, and as long as you’re using dungeon runes and not stacking sigils downed will serve the purpose very well.
Ppl do so cause they learned it this way.
Only reason to keep stacking wall would be a party of warriors so they can use the skill 3 as an additional evade and stay in stack, but as warriors are no longer the majority in parties as they suck nowadays due to being nerfed to banner carriers, it serves no direct point anymore to stack vs a wall, unless it breaks LOS and pulls in all ranged, which means you’re running without a mesmer, guardian or ranger.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)
Downed state is a training mechanism. it allows ppl to make mistakes, tbh 3 mistakes before being killed is quite generous. But it still serves a purpose, though it doens’t serve a purpose for experienced players as they sometimes just ignor ethe fact they could go down and just continue downed skill #1to kill the boss and all rally. It would be nice if your stats were clipped a bit. but who knows.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
My only complaint is that the other two glass cannon stat sets (rampager and sinister) are nowhere near as rewarding as berserker.
Sinister definitely has a shot at becoming relevant with the changes to conditions with HoT (for some classes anyway), though it still would have the “lack of Ferocity” as a problem that might hold it back. Right now its biggest issues are a bit more with the issues with Conditions itself, rather than the stat-line just being garbage. Rampager is probably not going anywhere, but that’s a bit more due to the issues in having Precision as the main stat in a set-up that one of its three stats is unaffected by the choice.
People who mess up too much won’t play a zerker, as the risk is too high. People who only want zerkers and good players can have that too. The other players who can’t play zerker or don’t want to play zerker, can play too, except now, they aren’t being punished for not running zerker. Now they have made a balanced/meaningful choice between squishiness and damage. Previously, they still had this choice, but it was not really meaningful, due to the risk vs reward factor being so unbalanced for zerkers.
That’s false. If people who already shouldn’t be running Berserker are running Berserker, they aren’t going to just stop. People can, and will continue to run it because it will still be the best at the one thing that matters the most in potential: speed of clear. The risk:reward factor will not have changed in any relevant way, as the riskyness of getting downed is nearly the exact same as getting straight killed for the sakes of relevant bosses. And no, there’s nothing wrong with being bad at the game. The same goes with there being absolutely nothing wrong with the downed state being there to help bad players for their runs.
Your idea of stacking seems to be a glorified one, stacking involves all 5 players standing in one spot, blasting for might etc and using their damage skills to burst down an enemy. If that is skill then I must be a pro player.
No, that’s kind’ve literally how it works, though I guess the correct counter-argument would be “and your idea of not stacking also seems to be a glorified one.” Staying in one spot without dying either requires better skill (through the use of stronger dodge timing), better coordination (through the use of cycling defensive abilities appropriately), or is the exact same as the alternative. If you’ve got a highly coordinated team, there isn’t going to suddenly be a drop in coordination because they’ve moved close to the enemy, nor is there suddenly going to be a drop in twitch skill just because they’ve moved close to the enemy (though, other than the instant boss attacks, the twitch skill requirements for being closer to the opponent as strictly higher due to less reaction time available).
If there’s any lack in skill requirement it would be because the content itself is too easy at its core, not because of anything silly like the downed state. Stacking is a product of the content not really being so scary as to warrant running around. When scary content actually happens, such as a 49/50 Imbued Shaman, stacking is almost completely removed for a majority of the fight (at least with 100% of the several dozen PUGs I’ve gone with for that). Stacking in those circumstances becomes a liability, so people immediately drop it for the easier option out. It’s a concept of risk:reward, and not some sort of broken “this is an exploit.”
Alternatively, new players would just not run zerker until they get better at the game? There should be some big risk for running a build as strong as zerker, currently there is not due to the fact that you have so many second chances when dying
And now you’ve hit the nail on the head: people shouldn’t run Berserker until they get better at the game. Berserker does have a big risk associated with it: you die extremely easy when you actually get hit (though, this applies to all hyper offensive sets, not just Berserker). The “second chance” isn’t a relevant factor when everyone on your team is new, and they’re all downed.
From personal experience, I pretty much spend at least an hour of every day that I play helping newer players. All of them ask, eventually anyway, what’s the best armor set-up/build/whatever. And regardless of what I said afterwards, the concept of “Berserker is currently the best armor” is the only thing that they ever hear, and it makes my life harsh for every single dungeon that I try and teach them. Because any amount of extra health they could’ve had would have been a really nice thing. I’ve had to 1v1 nearly every boss at this point (some going better than others…) because of this factor.
Berserker, beyond a shadow of a doubt, has major risk. If there’s any misunderstanding of that, then you need to actually play with bad/new players (and I mean actually bad, not just people that mess up every once in a while).
I’ll be honest
zerker, assassin, rampager, sinister, zealot all have the same “squishyness.”
When looking at my 15 characters 13 have a set which falls under these sets.
Only 9 have a “defensive set” mostly becuase I use them in WvW, also it wouldn’t be the first time for me running into wvw and thinking well kills are good, but I seem to take more then average damage… which in the end means i was on a zerk or other glass set instead of a more defensive set.
The fact I do not notice is mainly due to active defenses. these need to be learned..,.
Only good way to do so is in area’s where active defenses are tested, and while tested a downed state can be very helpful.
the downed state is a training oportunity, as long as people res, and not just rally each time.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
No, it’s a realisation that all these things, combined (not just zerker gear), are encouraging players to play in a boring, formulaic way, which ruins what could be a really good game.
I’ve said this before, but my guild chat is full of “we’re so good at cheesing” comments.
A well designed game, in this way, simply doesn’t allow cheesing (or as little as is humanly possible).
…and it sure as heck doesn’t actively encourage it.
Are you new to MMO?
There have been no significant changes to dungeons since release. The content is extremely repetitive, players want to get through it as efficiently as possible. Same thing can be said for any open world content too.
Funny thing is same attitude creeps into any online game I have ever played going as far back as Diku MuDs.
Diku Muds – you wanted to be a C/M/T for the backstab, sanc and firepower.
EQ – so many “cheese” professions to choose from. Bard, Druid, Necro, Shaman.
UO – didn’t matter as long as you maxxed alchemy
Lineage II – the list is too long to bother.
Guildwars – Ritualist, Imbagon, Mesmer, Assassin.In every single online game eventually knowledge of the mathematical nature of character statistics becomes readily available and people determine the best party composition based on available gear, skills and professions. Through practice and experience they will find the optimum ways to finish content as efficiently as possible to access the end rewards faster.
That all being said, If anet were to add a “hardmode” where there wasn’t a downed state in dungeons, gave an endurance debuff for less dodging, and bumped up the rewards I would be all for it. Something like that would make us all have to rethink group composition, gear choices, and would probably make skipping extremely difficult in certain dungeons. It would certainly add something to the dungeons after 3 years of the same thing day after day.
No, I’m not new to MMOs.
Have you ever played WoW?
The problems detailed in this thread are not problems that WoW suffers from and that is purely due to half decent game design.
Good games don’t allow their players to cheese their content, just because they’re in a hurry.
WoW has other issues, due to the (out)gearing process, but that just makes instances go quicker; it doesn’t force this kind of ridiculous skip>stack in same place every single time>melee gameplay, via its fundamental game design.
Hard modes are not enough to save this game because, at any one point in time, not everyone will have played the game long enough to access them.
The danger is that if dungeons seem, simultaneously, confusing (due to new people not knowing where to skip and stack, yet and/or that their ranged weaps are virtually redundant) AND boring and repetitive (due to the poor game design) many people won’t even bother getting as far as the hardmode dungeons, even if they are more interesting, they will just give up.
I shouldn’t have urges to go back to WoW – WoW is 10 years old, the current xpac is boring (to me) and overly male-oriented and yet, I almost do.
That is not right.
This beautiful-looking game, with a pretty nice first time levelling experience, should be able to beat WoW hands down, so why is it not able to?
Because, if I’m anything to go by, most people would rather stick hot needles in their eyes than do skip>stack>melee dungeon paths.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
GW2 =/= WOW
/15 Char
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
GW2 =/= WOW
/15 Char
No, it’s worse, even though it doesn’t need to be.
As for 15 chars, that is nothing to boast about, believe me.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
GW2 =/= WOW
/15 Char
No, it’s worse, even though it doesn’t need to be.
As for 15 chars, that is nothing to boast about, believe me.
Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?
The “15 char” means that one has to type 15 characters to send in a forum post – you#re welcome.
GW2 =/= WOW
/15 Char
No, it’s worse
If it was the case we’d be playing it.
All I see here is an attempt at reviving the “a kill is a kill” school of thought. The down state is going no where so if you do not like it you can weigh how much you like the game against how much you dislike the down state and decide if you are going to continue playing.
However to all that do quit can I have your stuff?
Pets have been hidden due to rising Player complaints.
GW2 =/= WOW
/15 Char
Oh how I would love to be a Healer in GW2. Having 6 characters all being DPS is quite lame.
GW2 =/= WOW
/15 Char
Oh how I would love to be a Healer in GW2. Having 6 characters all being DPS is quite lame.
You can, healers are sought for wvw.
GW2 =/= WOW
/15 Char
Oh how I would love to be a Healer in GW2. Having 6 characters all being DPS is quite lame.
You can, healers are sought for wvw.
Well I don’t like to run from point to point all the time.
Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?
The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?
It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.
Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.
It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).
This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).
The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.
Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.
Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.
There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.
At least until you know you have something better, anyway.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?
The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?
It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.
Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.
It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).
This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).
The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.
Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.
Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.
There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.
At least until you know you have something better, anyway.
It is also a mistaken belief that you not liking something personally doesn’t suddenly make it a design flaw. Nor is the belief that this game at any point tries to ever, and I mean ever, force or encourage you to choose any given armor type over the other. This game never once ever encourages anything of the sort, only players do. The closest this game ever does is from an actual flaw the limit of Conditions available on a single major target, which pushes players away from doing conditions in a PvE setting. That, however, has literally no place in a topic decrying the fact that the meta is Berserker gear (which, similarly, has never actually pointed out a problem, but instead has been a large amount hyperbole and opinions), and is something that we’ve directly seen in being fixed in the expansion.
Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?
The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?
It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.
Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.
It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).
This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).
The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.
Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.
Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.
There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.
At least until you know you have something better, anyway.
It would be a lot to explain but to make it simple: I hated almost everything about wow and think GW2 did most of it better and is still doing it better although they messed up since april last year. Anyway, to me this game is still better than wow or any other game I know. The moment I don’t like it anymore I’ll stop playing, I would never demand a game that already existed long before I came along to change so I would be happy, so I don’t understand you.
Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?
The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?
It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.
Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.
It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).
This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).
The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.
Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.
Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.
There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.
At least until you know you have something better, anyway.
It is also a mistaken belief that you not liking something personally doesn’t suddenly make it a design flaw.
I would agree, but in this case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The majority of experienced players believe there is only one efficient way to play dungeon paths and that is to wear certain gear, employ certain builds, use certain classes, use certain Ranger pets (which then die almost immediately – but that’s OK, as they were only ever needed for the initial buff!) and then run the paths in exactly the same way, every single time.
Skip exactly the same mobs, every single time, stack in exactly the same places, every single time, stand completely still in that stack, every single time (apart from the occasional stationary dodge, into a nearby wall) and only use melee weaps (as ranged ones do less damage in this situation), every single time.
It’s naïve to think that players play this way for no good reason.
They may have a ridiculously high tolerance to boredom and no discernable sense of originality, but they’re not idiots.
They, like all human beings, have an instinctive ability to find the path of least resistance, they have found it (at least, in theory – new players may mess that path up, so you state “exp only”) and so, they follow it.
…and this path of least resistance isn’t due to some random coincidence, it follows the exact design of the game.
If you’re trying to suggest that the aforementioned, entirely predetermined, entirely set, way of playing is a fun one, then really, you need to at least try some other games.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
Honestly, I don’t see how the “downed state” has any negative impact on the game. I may be misinterpreting the OP post, but it seems to me that the OP is complaining more about how the players run dungeons as opposed to the actual downed state. Players, in most cases, will usually choose the “path of least resistance”. Thus, zerker + stacking = quick and efficient completion. This is not the fault of Arena Net. It really doesn’t matter if there is a downed state or not as the player mentality will be to find the easiest and quickest way to kill something so they can get their reward and repeat or move on to something else.
Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?
The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?
It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.
Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.
It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).
This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).
The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.
Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.
Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.
There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.
At least until you know you have something better, anyway.
It would be a lot to explain but to make it simple: I hated almost everything about wow and think GW2 did most of it better and is still doing it better although they messed up since april last year. Anyway, to me this game is still better than wow or any other game I know. The moment I don’t like it anymore I’ll stop playing, I would never demand a game that already existed long before I came along to change so I would be happy, so I don’t understand you.
Well, if you can immediately see a game has issues, you should suggest it is changed, simple as that.
The opinions of new players are at least as valid as those of older players (and I say this as a non-new player of WoW, now), as first impressions count.
It’s no good, as a company, just saying “Oh well, a few people seem to like it as it is and don’t leave.” if that means the game is in danger of haemorrhaging newer players.
If all these issues were subjective, then fair enough, but they’re not.
The dungeon paths are, normally, played in a very, very dull way and even the “everyone is welcome” groups tend to be run by would-be “trainers” of new players, just to get them all trained-up for the skip>stack>melee boredom train.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
Well, if you can immediately see a game has issues, you should suggest it is changed, simple as that.
Why would I? It’s extremely egoistical to think that one holds all wisdom and is above everything everybody else likes.
The opinions of new players are at least as valid as those of older players (and I say this as a non-new player of WoW, now), as first impressions count.
Not really, it’s a difference if you try something new and don’t like it or if you’ve been with a game for a very long time and it changed to the worse. So, I would think that players who are new and don’t like a game would just stop playing it and move elsewhere – I would do that and in fact I did with wow.
It’s no good, as a company, just saying “Oh well, a few people seem to like it as it is and don’t leave.” if that means the game is in danger of haemorrhaging newer players.
I think you overestimate what you know about the playerbase of this game.
If all these issues were subjective, then fair enough, but they’re not.
They are – who are you to call them objective? You would like a better wow, so why don’t you complain to Blizzard about that?
The dungeon paths are, normally, played in a very, very dull way and even the “everyone is welcome” groups tend to be run by would-be “trainers” of new players, just to get them all trained-up for the skip>stack>melee boredom train.
A lot of people explained why that is and that was nothing else (if not worse) in wow.
(and to the OP: try elemental shaman lvl 49 and see if running zerker is punishing or not).
So basically the only time that zerker is punishing is in a lvl 49 fractal where the instability makes it so dodging is bad. Yea… did this make anyone else laugh?
No offense btw I just couldn’t resist..
First, this is a discussion topic, not a troll topic. So leave the troll before you cross the door, thank you.
Second, there’s nothing wrong with dodging in fractal 49. Yes, you do less damage, but no, dying is not better than doing less damage. So you still dodge. And you still get one-shot if you don’t dodge. I could have used 49 like any other high level (except 42, where you simply don’t regenerate enough endurance and hence can’t dodge). You take insane damage even from trash and going zerker is a high stakes game. You either kill them very fast or they kill you fast.
But i didnt have to go that far: i’ve run cof p1 and 2 countless times and i still die with my ele if the wind blows in the wrong direction. yesterday, without going too far, in the end boss of p2, i was feared and ran through 2 areas, getting downed in the second. Nothing i could do. Why? because i was running with a berserker build.
(edited by Aenesthesia.1697)
I don’t think the problem is Berzerkers, I think it is pathetic stacking up on each other and simply soaking the Bosses dps.
If they fix that mechanic of splitting/sharing damage and being on top of each other to insta-rez, I feel that the OP would not have brought this up.
My suggestion: If a boss downs a player, each player within 60 range takes double the damage that the downed player took .
That would promote skilled play.
The dungeon paths are, normally, played in a very, very dull way and even the “everyone is welcome” groups tend to be run by would-be “trainers” of new players, just to get them all trained-up for the skip>stack>melee boredom train.
And in WoW every single dungeon is the same tank & spank boredom train.
Why would I? It’s extremely egoistical to think that one holds all wisdom and is above everything everybody else likes.
Maybe it would be, if this was a purely subjective issue.
But, I can’t, in all honesty, see how the way the game is designed, to encourage the most boring dungeon runs I have ever encountered (not because of the dungeons themselves; purely due to the way they are run), as subjective.
I’m not someone who tries to say everyone should like what I like – in fact, I’m the reverse of that – but this design is not promoting choice and varying forms of fun, at all.
In fact, it is doing the reverse – promoting utter rigidity, complete lack of choice and stagnation.
Surely, you can see that?
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
Or a simple change making every boss melee autosttack cleave five targets for even dmg.
Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?
The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?
It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.
Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.
It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).
This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).
The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.
Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.
Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.
There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.
At least until you know you have something better, anyway.
It is also a mistaken belief that you not liking something personally doesn’t suddenly make it a design flaw.
I would agree, but in this case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The majority of experienced players believe there is only one efficient way to play dungeon paths and that is to wear certain gear, employ certain builds, use certain classes, use certain Ranger pets (which then die almost immediately – but that’s OK, as they were only ever needed for the initial buff!) and then run the paths in exactly the same way, every single time.
Skip exactly the same mobs, every single time, stack in exactly the same places, every single time, stand completely still in that stack, every single time (apart from the occasional stationary dodge, into a nearby wall) and only use melee weaps (as ranged ones do less damage in this situation), every single time.
It’s naïve to think that players play this way for no good reason.
They may have a ridiculously high tolerance to boredom and no discernable sense of originality, but they’re not idiots.
They, like all human beings, have an instinctive ability to find the path of least resistance, they have found it (at least, in theory – new players may mess that path up, so you state “exp only”) and so, they follow it.
…and this path of least resistance isn’t due to some random coincidence, it follows the exact design of the game.
If you’re trying to suggest that the aforementioned, entirely predetermined, entirely set, way of playing is a fun one, then really, you need to at least try some other games.
But you are complaining about a certain method for running dungeons after people have run the same dungeons hundreds of times. Of course they found the most efficient way of doing it.
Same efficiency may be achieved in almost every other part of the game, except that when you don’t know the content so well, you cannot stack, do a might stacking rotation and rip the enemy with frost bow, because you will be dead before the might stacking has ended.
I agree that yes, the game is working as intended and the current meta is there by design. I don’t agree that it’s worse than the gameplay in wow. REALLY. In wow you used to have people standing still doing playing a whack a mole game with 25 keys and whatching bars (healers, the allies’ health bar, dps, the recount dps stats, tanks: their own health bar and the aggro list). It’s true that they manage to put obstacles to that basic gameplay in every encounter (except piñata ones, which are also there for odd reasons, like gearchecks). I am not so sure that is much better than the gameplay in gw2. What does work better in wow, however, is that, even in piñata encounters, you still have to manage 25 plus skills with their cooldowns, and you still can rejoice in beating your pals to see who is the king of the recount. In gw2 you hit autoattack and go for a snack.
The dungeon paths are, normally, played in a very, very dull way and even the “everyone is welcome” groups tend to be run by would-be “trainers” of new players, just to get them all trained-up for the skip>stack>melee boredom train.
And in WoW every single dungeon is the same tank & spank boredom train.
As I say, I didn’t say WoW was perfect (it isn’t), but at least you don’t have to stand on top of each other, in exactly the same places, not moving muscle and only using your melee weaps, all the time.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
I would agree, but in this case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The majority of experienced players believe there is only one efficient way to play dungeon paths and that is to wear certain gear, employ certain builds, use certain classes, use certain Ranger pets (which then die almost immediately – but that’s OK, as they were only ever needed for the initial buff!) and then run the paths in exactly the same way, every single time.
Skip exactly the same mobs, every single time, stack in exactly the same places, every single time, stand completely still in that stack, every single time (apart from the occasional stationary dodge, into a nearby wall) and only use melee weaps (as ranged ones do less damage in this situation), every single time.
It’s naïve to think that players play this way for no good reason.
They may have a ridiculously high tolerance to boredom and no discernable sense of originality, but they’re not idiots.
They, like all human beings, have an instinctive ability to find the path of least resistance, they have found it (at least, in theory – new players may mess that path up, so you state “exp only”) and so, they follow it.
…and this path of least resistance isn’t due to some random coincidence, it follows the exact design of the game.
If you’re trying to suggest that the aforementioned, entirely predetermined, entirely set, way of playing is a fun one, then really, you need to at least try some other games.
You say all of this like it is both a problem, and unique to GW2. Nearly 100% of games are completely predeterminable in the exact perfect way to do them. Even the WoW example you brought has an exact perfect scenario, just like GW2 does. It’s just that, unlike dungeons in GW2, the number of people is so large that it’s far harder to reach it. It’s just like how Tequatl, Triple Trouble, and the Vinewraith have optimal team comps +builds for them. It’s just that absolutely no one cares in realistic terms. It is extremely naive to believe that it doesn’t exist in nearly every game (if not all, in a theoretical sense).
And as I said before, in the quote quoted in fact, this is still not actually a problem. Just something you’ve decided is one. Being “solvable” is an inherent part of all games, and unless you want to say that all games have an inherent flaw you’re not going to get anywhere. This isn’t, however, something that matters in realistic terms. The existence of an optimal path doesn’t suddenly mean that there’s a problem in design, nor does it mean anything outside of the seemingly religious fanaticism people have towards its existence (far, far outstripping the number and ferocity of those doing the opposite and requiring there be only the optimal path done). This game might not be perfect, but the things detailed in this topic aren’t the problems, only opinions.
I agree with you, downed state makes healing power completely worthless because you revive when you kill any mob, this made dungeons and pve in general way easier than it should be, I do not see the benefit of it what so ever even for pvp. Downed state might seems to be cool at the start, but all it does when you think about it is limit build diversity and make pve way easier than it should be. I think remove downed state is the right way to go.
Some must fight so that all may be free.