The hate for talent

The hate for talent

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Tuluum.9638

Tuluum.9638

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

We are on the same page

The bottom line, imo (important part), is that elitism and the elite are not mutually exclusive (as I said.. quite a few times now).

One can be an elitist and completely lacking in all skill. Elite refers directly to the skill level of the player. I would also add that most “elite” players achieve the title through a mass consensus that generally does not involve their own opinion.

So, elite refers to actual skill level. Elitist refers to attitude towards skill level (regardless of presence or absence of said skill). Basically, you can be an elite player without being an elitist, and you can be an elitist without being an elite player.

It is quite interesting that those who are promoting the theme of the OP all tend to have a vastly different idea of what these mean from myself and Lanfear.

edit: I wonder if it is something that is lost in translation? English might be a second/third/etc language for some here.

Henosis [ONE]
06-04-13
NEVER FORGET

(edited by Tuluum.9638)

The hate for talent

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Posted by: Tuluum.9638

Tuluum.9638

Because someone that is actually good have no need to shout about being good?
A good player don’t need to get confirmation from other people to know that they are good.
And people shouting about being good in chat simply looks like kittenholes.

LOL, seriously, this thread could have been closed after this replay. It sums it up just perfectly.

I dont know, I think this thread is taking some interesting detours.

And if you have been on the internet long enough, threads dont tend to get closed after a single reply that subjectively “sums it up.”

Its the journey, not the destination, maaan.

Henosis [ONE]
06-04-13
NEVER FORGET

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Posted by: Scrambles.2604

Scrambles.2604

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

We are on the same page

The bottom line, imo (important part), is that elitism and the elite are not mutually exclusive (as I said.. quite a few times now).

One can be an elitist and completely lacking in all skill. Elite refers directly to the skill level of the player. I would also add that most “elite” players achieve the title through a mass consensus that generally does not involve their own opinion.

So, elite refers to actual skill level. Elitist refers to attitude towards skill level (regardless of presence or absence of said skill). Basically, you can be an elite player without being an elitist, and you can be an elitist without being an elite player.

It is quite interesting that those who are promoting the theme of the OP all tend to have a vastly different idea of what these mean from myself and Lanfear.

edit: I wonder if it is something that is lost in translation? English might be a second/third/etc language for some here.

No offense, but you both seem to follow the derogatory definition that the OP and I have been discussing and are trying to advocate against. You both have a negative association with “elitists” and “bad behaviors.”

The idea is that you can be an “elitist” without being “bad mannered” and of course you can be “bad mannered” without being “elitist.” The issue is that you don’t seem to differentiate between the two and just lump them in one category—“Elitism.”

I suggest we just use the term “Elitist” in the same way the “N-word” has evolved over time. Dissociate it with it’s negative stereotype and turn it into a term of endearment:

You don’t call me Elitist!! That is our word!!

edit; The last thing i’ll say, is your negative attitude towards “elitists” is just as bad as the attitude of the bad-mannered “elitists” you complain about.

(edited by Scrambles.2604)

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Posted by: Jemmi.6058

Jemmi.6058

IMO Elitist is to Elite as Racist is to Race

Basically Elite = High level of skill
Elitist = Being prejudice vs others based on level of skill

Just as Race = Cultural and geographical origins
Racist = Being prejudice vs others based on race

EDIT: I haven’t personally run in to a lot of elitism in this game, and I more see it from a perspective on the forums. I do hate how many people in PUGs fall into one of 3 categories 1) I know all and you know nothing mentality 2) I am not going to say a word this entire dungeon or 3) I am really really bad

I find it very difficult to find fun, normal people to PUG with. It happens but seems to be a rarity, so I mostly play with guildmates.

I do not find that people dislike those who are good, but I think people just dislike ill-mannered players. Ill mannered players can be good or bad.

(edited by Jemmi.6058)

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Posted by: Tuluum.9638

Tuluum.9638

No offense, but you both seem to follow the derogatory definition that the OP and I have been discussing and are trying to advocate against. You both have a negative association with “elitists” and “bad behaviors.”

The idea is that you can be an “elitist” without being “bad mannered” and of course you can be “bad mannered” without being “elitist.” The issue is that you don’t seem to differentiate between the two and just lump them in one category—“Elitism.”

I suggest we just use the term “Elitist” in the same way the “N-word” has evolved over time. Dissociate it with it’s negative stereotype and turn it into a term of endearment:

You don’t call me Elitist!! That is our word!!

edit; The last thing i’ll say, is your negative attitude towards “elitists” is just as bad as the attitude of the bad-mannered “elitists” you complain about.

Interesting assumptions there… Perhaps I should have said I was on a “similar” page to lanfear, instead of the same.

As I have said previously, numerous times, “elitism” generally is considered negative in pretty much any societal context with the only exception being those who consider themselves elitists (imagine that ;P).

I also said it can be very useful for getting inside an opponents head.

The interesting part is that we actually are making a distinction with the term “elite” vs “elitist.” But, those who are claiming to be elitists do not make a distinction there while claiming those with a different opinion are not making a distinction within the term elitist. We arent doing it the way you are, and are therefore wrong, correct?

The mental gymnastics are quite intriguing.. Do carry on.

Henosis [ONE]
06-04-13
NEVER FORGET

(edited by Tuluum.9638)

The hate for talent

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Posted by: Tuluum.9638

Tuluum.9638

IMO Elitist is to Elite as Racist is to Race

Basically Elite = High level of skill
Elitist = Being prejudice vs others based on level of skill

Just as Race = Cultural and geographical origins
Racist = Being prejudice vs others based on race

I think that sums it up better than I could have hoped to do myself. At least, for one perspective context on the matter. Good analogy.

Henosis [ONE]
06-04-13
NEVER FORGET

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Posted by: Aeonblade.8709

Aeonblade.8709

IMO Elitist is to Elite as Racist is to Race

Basically Elite = High level of skill
Elitist = Being prejudice vs others based on level of skill

Just as Race = Cultural and geographical origins
Racist = Being prejudice vs others based on race

I think that sums it up better than I could have hoped to do myself. At least, for one perspective context on the matter. Good analogy.

I agree. I wish I had the same gift of words and analogy some of you here at the forums have.

Anarai Aeonblade [GASM] – Guardian – DB
RIP my fair Engi and Ranger, you will be missed.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

I can admire the play of a skilled player if I witness a demonstration of that skill, either in game or in a video of game-play. That said, skill in a video game neither means that person is a wonderful human being, nor does it mean s/he isn’t. There is zero correlation between the two conditions.

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

I would say there is a drastic difference between racism and elitism: racism implies a judgement of inferiority of a race, this is a wholistic approach. Racist people despise other races based on characteristics that are the e’ssence of this race. They hate what defines the people composing this race. On the contrary elitism implies a judgement on specific characteristics that do not define in themselves the persons that have them.
For example: i can judge your skill level and decide it is inferior to mine, but that foes not make you an inferior person in any way. It is like saying I am taller than you: it’s a statement of fact and you have no reason to feel bad about it. The caracteristic judged is determined and measurable. Racist people believe people in other races are inferior in themselves. Do you understand my point?

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: Tuluum.9638

Tuluum.9638

Do you understand my point?

Yeah, I do.

The more pertinent question is; Do you understand ours?

Do you really not see the correlation, even in what you typed? Doing so may take some introspection, but its all based on prejudiced superiority and perceived by the general population in a negative light for that very reason.

I could see a racist saying something like "you are inferior to me because of “x.” Its just a fact, and you have no reason to feel bad about it. Its just how it is."

Regardless of your intentions, the other side of the equation is the perception of those you communicate with. Which leads me to my initial point that many self-proclaimed elitists tend to have difficulty in social interaction.

I speak from experience on this. “Hi, I am Tuluum and I am a semi-reformed elitist but still a troll.”

Henosis [ONE]
06-04-13
NEVER FORGET

(edited by Tuluum.9638)

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Posted by: Aeranima.2853

Aeranima.2853

Sorry mate. Couldn’t stop laughing when I thought about Carrie in Sex And The City when reading this. XD

Xifix | Thief
Website: http://xifix.weebly.com

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

Yes I believe I understand you point, but correct me if you feel I don’t.

Perception aside, we have two different approaches:

1. This caracteristic of yours is inferior to mine, this caracteristic defines you as a person, so your person is inferior to mine on the whole.

2. This specific caracteristic of yours is inferior to mine, this caracteristic does not define you as a person, so you are not inferior to me as a person but we are different.

Both approaches make a statement of difference, but their implications are far from close!
The first one gives you no chance: you are defined as inferior (which implies thst you should feel bad), what ever the potency of your other caracteristics.
The second one makes no assumption about your other caracteristics, and is closer to a judgement of quantity rather than quality.
(Chair can have two different sizes, yet they are equal in utility: one suits adults and the other fits to children for example)

I agree that there is a thin line between the two!

Anyway we can all agree that human beings have differences. Stating one of these differences does not necessarilly contradict the idea that all humans are equal. But it could be interpreted as such, I agree.

As I see it the problem lies more in the interpretation of the statement of difference.
Why would people interpret some statements of difference badly when they accept most others? That’s a mistery to me! The question is who is to blame: the person making the statement (ignoring the potential imterpretations) or the person interpreting the statement?
I see no moral reason why anyone should change their statements based on potential interpretations.
I can understand why would someone rush into interpretations, it is a defence mechanism, but is it right?
Some things that are socially accepted are not always morally right.
In fact, it was socially accepted to be racist in kitten germany (Godwin the return), and I believe we can all agree it was morally wrong!
Also when this defence mechanism is expressed with aggressivity it is not helpful either :)

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

I have to agree with the people who say that advertising a guild on general chat and asking for “skilled players” is a recipe for disaster, a good way to end with not only bad players but also a lot of kids with overinflated ego.

Personally, in my guild, we only take people who are pleasant to play with, even if they aren’t “zomg top skillz!”.

i personally dont keep people in my guild who are bad at the game and choose to stay that way, its simply the way my guild is, if someone is lacking i will put all my effort into helping them and finding out what they struggle with, im an elitist but i like to think that im one of the good examples, i plan on turning the guild into a WvW guild so i need everyone to be average in it, if not then i will help them, if i know they are going to try i will help, i dont help the people who want a free ride :P

but yeah i aggre with you, its people who advertise like that who are lazy and give “elitists” a VERY bad name.

Well I’m glad I’m not in your guild. I guess I don’t take video games seriously enough to behave like that towards fellow players, and even less towards fellow guild mates. And yet we don’t have any trouble tackling any of the content of the game, including WvW.

As I said, I rather be surrounded by pleasant people even if they aren’t the best players ever than by “skilled” ones who take games way too seriously and are not pleasant to play with. I play games to relax, not to manage a second job as guild leader to lead a sort of pseudo military organization in a game after I’m done with my real job.

When I remove someone from my guild (happened once so far since release, we have a good recruitment policy), it’s because he behaved badly and broke our few guild rules which mostly say “be nice”. Never because he’s less skilled than others. I’d hate myself if I ever did that.

i totally agree im glad im not in his guild and for the casualness of my guild makes me want to play more. it funny how the skill of a few can make a dungeon run faster then a group of 5 who supposably are skilled. happened the first time i ever did cof with guild mates. three of us didnt have a clue and followed. the mates commented how it was the quickest run they ever did and found out after several runs later they were right. i prefer a more social guild. as for advertizing doesnt a more casual guild advertize that not you must be fun top play with they state they are relaxed and casual

i believe from the comments youve made, you havnt read the whole post, did i at one point say that i have kicked anyone??? no so dont assume, it is my philosophy though, i have put so much effort to help the people in my guild, like i said i teach and introduce them to each aspect, i said i need them to be average, and at what point did i say that it was a military organisation xD im making it a WvW guild, but when it comes down to it, i want to have fun, its a little disrespectful even for the forums to say what you just did :S

you stated in your quote you dont keep people who dont get better. that sounds like to me you kick people who dont get better. now you state you keep this guy who doesnt get better gear. im sorry but dont make one comment then go back with another. im stating i dont care if people get better as long as i get along with them and have fun.

you comment like it makes you a better person, dont make me laugh, im stating that there is nothing wrong with wanting to better yourself, and no i havnt kicked a single person, ive helped every single one, i want them to get better, yes i did state that, but dont take away from the meaning, he is an amazing player and doesnt really need better gear but i will keep pushing as the better gear will make him better without him having to try.

RedCobra – Ranked PVP Druid
Current Season – Platinum (Soloq)
Retired GW2 ESL Tournament Admin

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Posted by: Phantasmal.5631

Phantasmal.5631

I see what the OP is talking about, they just said it in a wrong manner. I joined a guild recently and it is full of newer people who joined the game. Unfortunately, these new players have an infatuation (ie kitten) for berzerker gear. I’ve grouped with a number of them in dungeons and they are TERRIBLE. They go down all the time and will always talk about their one instance of doing X amount of damage and how AWESOME they are. When someone tells them a different build and how to stay alive, they ignore all advice and continue to SUCK and will insist on joining dungeons thinking they are hot kitten. I’m sorry, but the dungeons run suck because people need to keep ressing you.

A lot of these characters play LIGHT armor classes. One still thinks that switching attunements is a bad idea and monsters have an innate elemental resist, which they don’t.

We have a couple of exceptional players in the guild and they totally rag on/hate this one person who easily carries the groups every time because he knows what he is doing, is not in zerker gear for obvious reasons and yet they think he is a n00b for not using zerker. Unfortunately, this person is way too nice to point out how much the other players suck. It’s so infuriating. I never party with these garbage players in my guild anymore since they are like infants and rage whenever they die, go down, or things don’t go their way since their skill level and understanding of their classes and dodge mechanics are so poor.

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Posted by: Resonance.4216

Resonance.4216

I use zerker staff ele in wvw and d/d in dungeons.

Know why i don’t die? Because I know how game mechanics work. That’s it. That’s literally all you need to know in this game.


Elementalist of Oceanix [OCX]
http://www.oceanix.com.au

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

More and more I am experiencing this habit that the community has to despise people who claim to be skilled for this game.

Try it: go to LA, and say that you are a good player.
(Note: I am not saying I do it. This sentence is for rhetorical purposes)

People will instantly tell you that you lack humility, that you are an elitist, that you are despicable etc; for no reason.

People do not want to see or be aware of the fact that some players can be more skilled than them (no boasting, just statement of skill). The community seem to believe that they would be better off without such players.
It appears as if the community would like to stay bad and play only with bad people.

It is also the same on the forums.

I believe this is not benefiting the game in itself because it promotes stale and boring gameplay additions rather than diverse and challenging content.

As a comparison: when you play football as an amateur you play it for fun and you dream of being as skilled as the players of international level. In GW2 the ’amateurs" have no such dreams, worse: they do not want to face the fact that being better is possible.

With all due respect, why the discrimination?

Someone who goes out of their way to announce their greatness to an audience not seeking the information is bound to get some degree if flack.

True greatness in some endeavor is not something you need to shout to the world.

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Posted by: Tuluum.9638

Tuluum.9638

Yes I believe I understand you point, but correct me if you feel I don’t.

Perception aside, we have two different approaches:

1. This caracteristic of yours is inferior to mine, this caracteristic defines you as a person, so your person is inferior to mine on the whole.

2. This specific caracteristic of yours is inferior to mine, this caracteristic does not define you as a person, so you are not inferior to me as a person but we are different.

Ill just start off with saying that I am kind of struggling to understand what you are saying throughout this post and also mention that I only speak for myself.

The words of elitists tend to come off as a judgment based on faulty superiority. This does not directly imply that anyone can, will, or should actually feel inferior because of them. When a racist says to me "Because you are “x” race, you are obviously inferior," do I actually feel inferior? Not a chance, but does the racist imply directly or indirectly that they perceive me as inferior? Most definitely! But, to them, the inferiority is just a given. How many racists will actually say that they are wrong because of their racism?

(Chair can have two different sizes, yet they are equal in utility: one suits adults and the other fits to children for example)

See though, its about an overall theme. Even here, you compare one set of characteristics with a child, and the other to an adult. I understand you might not have intended it, but when everything else is taken into account, this is what rubs people the wrong way.

Anyway we can all agree that human beings have differences. Stating one of these differences does not necessarilly contradict the idea that all humans are equal. But it could be interpreted as such, I agree.

Exactly, and when it is strongly insinuated by the very definition of “elitism” that there is an inherent superiority, therein lies the problem.

The question is who is to blame: the person making the statement (ignoring the potential imterpretations) or the person interpreting the statement?
I see no moral reason why anyone should change their statements based on potential interpretations.
I can understand why would someone rush into interpretations, it is a defence mechanism, but is it right?

Both involved parties are responsible, imo. For me, I realized that regardless of my own opinions on the matter, the way I approached the topic was being perceived negatively by others. Some were even struggling with self-esteem issues, etc. Is it “my problem?” No, not really. But, if I am faced with a choice to either act in a way that makes me feel good while making another feel bad, or act in a way that enables and encourages both of us.. It is a no-brainer. It wont apply to everyone, perhaps even including yourself. But, my words were making some others feel bad, and just outright kitten ed some others off, and every reaction in between. I figured I could wait until every one didnt take things so personally, or make a minor change in my own approach. I chose the latter due to feasibility. In the end, I do feel it was the right choice, and I have ended up learning more from a stance of humility than I ever did when acting from a stance of superiority.

From a skill standpoint, I am not where I used to be due to medical issues. But, I still seek challenge. It is what I search out above all else. I am not interested in making myself look like a great player, or being perceived that way. I found that when approaching it from humility, my entire playstyle and goals changed and I ended up being significantly more satisfied than I ever was when I was attempting to flaunt my accomplishments to anyone who could see/hear/read/etc.

YMMV

Henosis [ONE]
06-04-13
NEVER FORGET

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

I don’t see why this thread is still going. Everyone knows I’m the best player. Don’t make me post my leader board stats again.

The Burninator

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Posted by: RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

I see what the OP is talking about, they just said it in a wrong manner. I joined a guild recently and it is full of newer people who joined the game. Unfortunately, these new players have an infatuation (ie kitten) for berzerker gear. I’ve grouped with a number of them in dungeons and they are TERRIBLE. They go down all the time and will always talk about their one instance of doing X amount of damage and how AWESOME they are. When someone tells them a different build and how to stay alive, they ignore all advice and continue to SUCK and will insist on joining dungeons thinking they are hot kitten. I’m sorry, but the dungeons run suck because people need to keep ressing you.

A lot of these characters play LIGHT armor classes. One still thinks that switching attunements is a bad idea and monsters have an innate elemental resist, which they don’t.

We have a couple of exceptional players in the guild and they totally rag on/hate this one person who easily carries the groups every time because he knows what he is doing, is not in zerker gear for obvious reasons and yet they think he is a n00b for not using zerker. Unfortunately, this person is way too nice to point out how much the other players suck. It’s so infuriating. I never party with these garbage players in my guild anymore since they are like infants and rage whenever they die, go down, or things don’t go their way since their skill level and understanding of their classes and dodge mechanics are so poor.

i do agree that new players seem to spam zerk gear, however im a zerk mesmer and i rarely die, if i see a dps mesmer in any other gear i will instantly think he hasnt got to the highest potential of survivabilty with his skills, only for mesmer though i cant say for the other classes

RedCobra – Ranked PVP Druid
Current Season – Platinum (Soloq)
Retired GW2 ESL Tournament Admin

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Posted by: UnrepentantProcrastinator.7420

UnrepentantProcrastinator.7420

Maybe it’s because you’r going to LA and just telling people you’re a good player.

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Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

Yesterday I did Arah p3 for the first time with several newbies (including me). We were all cooperative, we listened and downed Lupi on third try. No player, at any time, claimed to be good or elite. We knew we were unexperienced and rolled with it.

That’s just my take on all this nonsense. I don’t hate talent, but I don’t hate the lack of talent either. Both would make me hate myself.

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

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Posted by: xiv.7136

xiv.7136

Going into any room, anywhere, and just saying “I am better than you all” will make you rather unpopular rather fast.

Is this surprising? Hardly. Imagine your immediate reaction to someone else if they did that. What would be your thoughts.

If you prove you’re good, whether in a cooperative or competitive scenario, then you might get some admiration mixed with envy. But just saying it? Nah.

________________________
http://youtu.be/P_hfyP2OHkw
I like pizza

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Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

Going into any room, anywhere, and just saying “I am better than you all” will make you rather unpopular rather fast.

He would be right though. He’s better than all of us at being a first class a—kitten.

Being the best is defined differently for different players. I never considered people with rank 14 in WoW “the best” because it came at the cost of things that are far better than r14, namely a life.

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

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Posted by: Eladriel.7295

Eladriel.7295

More and more I am experiencing this habit that the community has to despise people who claim to be skilled for this game.

Try it: go to LA, and say that you are a good player.
(Note: I am not saying I do it. This sentence is for rhetorical purposes)

People will instantly tell you that you lack humility, that you are an elitist, that you are despicable etc; for no reason.

People do not want to see or be aware of the fact that some players can be more skilled than them (no boasting, just statement of skill). The community seem to believe that they would be better off without such players.
It appears as if the community would like to stay bad and play only with bad people.

It is also the same on the forums.

I believe this is not benefiting the game in itself because it promotes stale and boring gameplay additions rather than diverse and challenging content.

As a comparison: when you play football as an amateur you play it for fun and you dream of being as skilled as the players of international level. In GW2 the ’amateurs" have no such dreams, worse: they do not want to face the fact that being better is possible.

With all due respect, why the discrimination?

A Good player is subjective to the one stating it Just because you see yourself as one doesn’t mean others will.. 99% of the those who assume they are good usually aren’t. Really who gives one the assumption they are a good player.. If the title is self given then you obviously aren’t and just being conceited. . And being a good player goes further than just skill at the game. It also depends on you as a player how you react to other players in the community.

Together we stand in the face of evil!

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

Ill just start off with saying that I am kind of struggling to understand what you are saying throughout this post and also mention that I only speak for myself.

Yes! I know :)
I was writing on a mobile device, and the end result is very confusing.
That being said, thank you for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate this conversation.

I am going to repeat myself with a bit more details and accuracy. i really want you to understand what contrast I see between racism and elitism:

-Elitism: makes a statement of difference regarding a specific characteristic. This characteristic is determined and somehow measurable (size of a chair, etc). It has no implications for the other characteristics (no implication for the colour of the chair). The only conclusion that can be drawn from such statement is that the subject is more fit for a certain situation/activity that revolve around the use of the characteristic. This makes no assumption for any other situation/activity.
Example: a rugby player can be more useful to the team in the front line if he is heavy as opposed to the back lines if he is lightweight. This judgement on weight makes no assumption on how the player can pass the balloon, or how fast he runs. The guys in the front line may ask the player to go in the back line if he is too lightweight. This is a form of elitism: they want to have a consistent front line that is reliable, based on a specific characteristic. Should the excluded player feel bad? No: the judgement is made on a specific characteristic: it does not mean he is a liability to the team, it only mean he would be more efficient in an other situation than the front line.
Applied to the game: some players play at a high skill level. They want to progress together. Therefore a player of a lower skill level would be less adapted to their situation, so they exclude him. This judgement is based on a specific characteristic: skill level in a MOBA-MMO game. This exclusion does not imply that the player is a bad person. In fact it could very well be that this player is more casual and is better at playing the game in a less optimized fashion, centred around relaxing with friends, or maybe this player is a monster at strategy games!
The only “inferiority” involved in elitism is regarding the measure of a specific attribute of a person, not the person as a whole. It means “you have less of this” not “you are bad and should feel bad”.

-Racism: More than a statement of difference, it is a statement of inferiority. Instead of judging a specific characteristic it is the person as a whole which is judged. It is like elitism pushed to an extreme: the characteristic judged is ethnicity, which is not measurable and the judgement is therefore more of “this is bad” rather than “you have less of this”.

The key point is the measurability of the characteristic involved. I know that is it not easy to argue that game skill is measurable, but in a way it is (we can have this debate if necessary).

This is why elitism is not wrong for as long as it is done with respect, and it should not foster bad feelings.

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

The question is who is to blame: the person making the statement (ignoring the potential imterpretations) or the person interpreting the statement?
I see no moral reason why anyone should change their statements based on potential interpretations.
I can understand why would someone rush into interpretations, it is a defence mechanism, but is it right?

Both involved parties are responsible, imo. For me, I realized that regardless of my own opinions on the matter, the way I approached the topic was being perceived negatively by others. Some were even struggling with self-esteem issues, etc. Is it “my problem?” No, not really. But, if I am faced with a choice to either act in a way that makes me feel good while making another feel bad, or act in a way that enables and encourages both of us.. It is a no-brainer. It wont apply to everyone, perhaps even including yourself. But, my words were making some others feel bad, and just outright kitten ed some others off, and every reaction in between. I figured I could wait until every one didnt take things so personally, or make a minor change in my own approach. I chose the latter due to feasibility. In the end, I do feel it was the right choice, and I have ended up learning more from a stance of humility than I ever did when acting from a stance of superiority.

So you agree that not changing a statement because of potential interpretations is not wrong. I understand that it could be desirable to accommodate for the interpretations of course, but it doesn’t make it a more righteous approach.
It all comes down to personal preference.
As for me I am just flabbergasted by the outrageous interpretations and assumptions that the community is making, especially on this forum! Just look at the history of this thread…
So yes, I choose to not alter my statements and keep them blunt. I don’t want to call it a crusade, but it is my way of expressing my discontent.

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

And being a good player goes further than just skill at the game. It also depends on you as a player how you react to other players in the community.

No, these are two different things. When I talk about talent I mean skill. The behaviour of a player towards the community is tied to being a good person, not a good player.

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

So you agree that not changing a statement because of potential interpretations is not wrong

Actually it is wrong. It is also not wrong. The situation you describe can only be described as wrong or not wrong in terms of the current social environment. It could be absolutely wrong to not change a statement based on potential interpretation in one instance, and completely not wrong at all in another.

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

Going into any room, anywhere, and just saying “I am better than you all” will make you rather unpopular rather fast.

He would be right though. He’s better than all of us at being a first class a—kitten.

Being the best is defined differently for different players. I never considered people with rank 14 in WoW “the best” because it came at the cost of things that are far better than r14, namely a life.

You have to differentiate the two: there is the player, and there is the person.
A r14 player in wow is likely the best player, but this makes no assumption about his personal life.
I would never dare to judge anyone’s personal life, I am a strong believer of the idea that all people and things are equal.
This does not prevent me from judging the skill of a player and ordinating it.

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

So you agree that not changing a statement because of potential interpretations is not wrong

Actually it is wrong. It is also not wrong. The situation you describe can only be described as wrong or not wrong in terms of the current social environment. It could be absolutely wrong to not change a statement based on potential interpretation in one instance, and completely not wrong at all in another.

Indeed, I meant “morally wrong” (as a reference to one of my previous posts).

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

Going into any room, anywhere, and just saying “I am better than you all” will make you rather unpopular rather fast.

He would be right though. He’s better than all of us at being a first class a—kitten.

Being the best is defined differently for different players. I never considered people with rank 14 in WoW “the best” because it came at the cost of things that are far better than r14, namely a life.

You have to differentiate the two: there is the player, and there is the person.
A r14 player in wow is likely the best player, but this makes no assumption about his personal life.

Being good at WoW was not a requirement for r14, however being bad at life was.

I would never dare to judge anyone’s personal life, I am a strong believer of the idea that all people and things are equal.
This does not prevent me from judging the skill of a player and ordinating it.

r14 factually required 2 continuous months of at least 14 hours per day played. Every single day. Missing a day meant delaying r14 by about a week. People with any hard RL requirements, even if only half a day every other week, were not able to get it. Time investment was literally the only requirement for r14. Being good was not part of the equation.

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

Going into any room, anywhere, and just saying “I am better than you all” will make you rather unpopular rather fast.

He would be right though. He’s better than all of us at being a first class a—kitten.

Being the best is defined differently for different players. I never considered people with rank 14 in WoW “the best” because it came at the cost of things that are far better than r14, namely a life.

You have to differentiate the two: there is the player, and there is the person.
A r14 player in wow is likely the best player, but this makes no assumption about his personal life.

Being good at WoW was not a requirement for r14, however being bad at life was.

I would never dare to judge anyone’s personal life, I am a strong believer of the idea that all people and things are equal.
This does not prevent me from judging the skill of a player and ordinating it.

r14 factually required 2 continuous months of at least 14 hours per day played. Every single day. Missing a day meant delaying r14 by about a week. People with any hard RL requirements, even if only half a day every other week, were not able to get it. Time investment was literally the only requirement for r14. Being good was not part of the equation.

Right. Maybe talking about high arena ranking would be more relevant. I just hope you get my point.

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

Right. Maybe talking about high arena ranking would be more relevant. I just hope you get my point.

I was specifically referring to r14 to make my point. I don’t generally respect people for being “good” at games, because good is so open for interpretation. I want to have fun, doesn’t matter whether I’m good or not.

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

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Posted by: Zoldyck.6241

Zoldyck.6241

The adjective pretty much describe what i think of Elitists.

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism
(-ltzm, -l-)

n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

e·litist adj. & n.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

elitist

adjective
snobbish, exclusive, superior, arrogant, selective, pretentious, stuck-up (informal), patronizing, condescending, snooty (informal), uppity, high and mighty (informal), hoity-toity (informal), high-hat (informal, chiefly U.S.), uppish (Brit. informal) He described skiing as an elitist sport.

noun
snob, highbrow, prig, social climber He was an elitist who had no time for the masses.

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

So you agree that not changing a statement because of potential interpretations is not wrong

Actually it is wrong. It is also not wrong. The situation you describe can only be described as wrong or not wrong in terms of the current social environment. It could be absolutely wrong to not change a statement based on potential interpretation in one instance, and completely not wrong at all in another.

Indeed, I meant “morally wrong” (as a reference to one of my previous posts).

So was I. It is morally wrong in some circumstances and not morally wrong in others.

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Posted by: Xenon.4537

Xenon.4537

I think what the OP is worried about is that no one is really concerned with improving their own skill performance within the game. Rather than learning to play better to overcome challenging content, they cry out for nerfs and beg for tank and spank content that they can practically afk through. This trend only serves to make the game more stale, boring, and pointless over time. It’s an atmosphere of cancer and decay.

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Posted by: Dub.1273

Dub.1273

Once i start soloing stuff like Crusher, Hunter, Mage Crusher, Lupicus and then complain at endboss that they should please, please not draw all my aggro when im running, i often get kicked.

Dub | [rT]
#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

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Posted by: Xenon.4537

Xenon.4537

The adjective pretty much describe what i think of Elitists.

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism
(-ltzm, -l-)

n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

e·litist adj. & n.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

elitist

adjective
snobbish, exclusive, superior, arrogant, selective, pretentious, stuck-up (informal), patronizing, condescending, snooty (informal), uppity, high and mighty (informal), hoity-toity (informal), high-hat (informal, chiefly U.S.), uppish (Brit. informal) He described skiing as an elitist sport.

noun
snob, highbrow, prig, social climber He was an elitist who had no time for the masses.

Yes. This is indeed the definition in our dictionaries. That doesn’t mean the term “elitist” is used properly. Much of the time poor players use it as a cudgel to bash players who are simply looking to raise the bar of quality in gaming.

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

I think what the OP is worried about is that no one is really concerned with improving their own skill performance within the game. Rather than learning to play better to overcome challenging content, they cry out for nerfs and beg for tank and spank content that they can practically afk through. This trend only serves to make the game more stale, boring, and pointless over time. It’s an atmosphere of cancer and decay.

Yes, this is a direct implication of what I mean!

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

So you agree that not changing a statement because of potential interpretations is not wrong

Actually it is wrong. It is also not wrong. The situation you describe can only be described as wrong or not wrong in terms of the current social environment. It could be absolutely wrong to not change a statement based on potential interpretation in one instance, and completely not wrong at all in another.

Indeed, I meant “morally wrong” (as a reference to one of my previous posts).

So was I. It is morally wrong in some circumstances and not morally wrong in others.

I don’t believe morals change according to the situation.
Can you give me an example of when it is morally wrong to not change a statement in light of potential interpretations?
And by the way I believe that it is morally wrong to interpret statements :)

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

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Posted by: Scrambles.2604

Scrambles.2604

Going into any room, anywhere, and just saying “I am better than you all” will make you rather unpopular rather fast.

He would be right though. He’s better than all of us at being a first class a—kitten.

Being the best is defined differently for different players. I never considered people with rank 14 in WoW “the best” because it came at the cost of things that are far better than r14, namely a life.

You have to differentiate the two: there is the player, and there is the person.
A r14 player in wow is likely the best player, but this makes no assumption about his personal life.

Being good at WoW was not a requirement for r14, however being bad at life was.

I would never dare to judge anyone’s personal life, I am a strong believer of the idea that all people and things are equal.
This does not prevent me from judging the skill of a player and ordinating it.

r14 factually required 2 continuous months of at least 14 hours per day played. Every single day. Missing a day meant delaying r14 by about a week. People with any hard RL requirements, even if only half a day every other week, were not able to get it. Time investment was literally the only requirement for r14. Being good was not part of the equation.

Yeah, but it’s ridiculous to think someone would spend all that time getting to rank14 and not get any better at the game. I actually got to rank 13 back in vanilla and while the best pvpers at the time weren’t exclusively high ranks, i can guarantee you that the high rank pvpers were very proficient at pvp.

You didn’t have to be good to get rank14, but the process of getting rank14 made you better.

And taking shots at peoples live’s just makes you sound bitter…“anyone worse than me is a noob and anyone better than me has no life!”

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Posted by: wolfie.7296

wolfie.7296

You didn’t have to be good to get rank14, but the process of getting rank14 made you better.

And taking shots at peoples live’s just makes you sound bitter…“anyone worse than me is a noob and anyone better than me has no life!”

in a grinding game it’s true, not bitterness. and yes, if someone is worse there is a chance they are a “noob” at the game if there are no other factors like gear/latency involved.

also, in wow the top ranks exploited by swapping accounts with other guild players and blizzard did nothing despite it being against the tos/rules etc. (much in the same way blizzard made money off farmers and encouraged it -with token bans- while the gaming press watched and said nothing)

(edited by wolfie.7296)

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Posted by: Scrambles.2604

Scrambles.2604

You didn’t have to be good to get rank14, but the process of getting rank14 made you better.

And taking shots at peoples live’s just makes you sound bitter…“anyone worse than me is a noob and anyone better than me has no life!”

in a grinding game it’s true, not bitterness. and yes, if someone is worse there is a chance they are a “noob” at the game if there are no other factors like gear/latency involved.

also, in wow the top ranks exploited by swapping accounts with other guild players and blizzard did nothing despite it being against the tos/rules etc. (much in the same way blizzard made money off farmers and encouraged it -with token bans- while the gaming press watched and said nothing)

While you can’t guarantee someone who spent 1000 hrs will be more skilled than someone who spent 10 hrs in the game, I would argue it’s fair to assume that they would have gained significantly more experience, knowledge, and probably more skill than someone that’s spent less time in the game. Whether it’s a “grind game” or not.

I feel like this is so painfully obvious i’m not sure why i am typing it.

edit; While dangerously off-topic, not all top ranked players in WoW exploited their way to get to that point. Some may have, but the way you describe it is a gross and inaccurate generalization.

(edited by Scrambles.2604)

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Posted by: Korrigan.4837

Korrigan.4837

I don’t believe morals change according to the situation.

No offense meant, but this is a quite naive belief.
Morals tend to magically fade away for many individuals as soon as there can be a profit for them.

The Farstar Alliance [TFA] – Gandara Server.
A PvX guild for mature players with a life.

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Posted by: Jemmi.6058

Jemmi.6058

I would say there is a drastic difference between racism and elitism: racism implies a judgement of inferiority of a race, this is a wholistic approach. Racist people despise other races based on characteristics that are the e’ssence of this race. They hate what defines the people composing this race. On the contrary elitism implies a judgement on specific characteristics that do not define in themselves the persons that have them.
For example: i can judge your skill level and decide it is inferior to mine, but that foes not make you an inferior person in any way. It is like saying I am taller than you: it’s a statement of fact and you have no reason to feel bad about it. The caracteristic judged is determined and measurable. Racist people believe people in other races are inferior in themselves. Do you understand my point?

I believe you misunderstood my analogy.

The -ist at the end of elitist implies that you are discriminating against some based on the former part of the word

i.e.

Sexist / based on gender
Racist / based on race
Classist / based on what class one is
Agist / based on age
Elitist / based of how elite one is (based on skill)

Naturally this is not the case for any word that ends with ist; such as bioligist, physicist, altruist, assist etc etc.

However, I am not saying that Racism and Elitism operate in the same way or are in anyway related. I am simply saying that the word implies descrimination.

This act can occur both ways. It does not have to be an elite person being prejudice towards an inferior player. It can be an inferior player excluding a better player based on their skill. The only reason i can see this, is if that person expects the better skilled player to be ‘elitist’ simply because they are an ‘elite’ player, but that isn’t a given. The act is hypocritical, because the inferior player is acting elitist in this scenario.

However the technical definition is (which differs slightly from my interpretation)

e·lit·ist
/i?l?tist/
Noun
A person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.
Adjective
Favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.

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Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

We are on the same page

The bottom line, imo (important part), is that elitism and the elite are not mutually exclusive (as I said.. quite a few times now).

One can be an elitist and completely lacking in all skill. Elite refers directly to the skill level of the player. I would also add that most “elite” players achieve the title through a mass consensus that generally does not involve their own opinion.

So, elite refers to actual skill level. Elitist refers to attitude towards skill level (regardless of presence or absence of said skill). Basically, you can be an elite player without being an elitist, and you can be an elitist without being an elite player.

It is quite interesting that those who are promoting the theme of the OP all tend to have a vastly different idea of what these mean from myself and Lanfear.

edit: I wonder if it is something that is lost in translation? English might be a second/third/etc language for some here.

No offense, but you both seem to follow the derogatory definition that the OP and I have been discussing and are trying to advocate against. You both have a negative association with “elitists” and “bad behaviors.”

The idea is that you can be an “elitist” without being “bad mannered” and of course you can be “bad mannered” without being “elitist.” The issue is that you don’t seem to differentiate between the two and just lump them in one category—“Elitism.”

I suggest we just use the term “Elitist” in the same way the “N-word” has evolved over time. Dissociate it with it’s negative stereotype and turn it into a term of endearment:

You don’t call me Elitist!! That is our word!!

edit; The last thing i’ll say, is your negative attitude towards “elitists” is just as bad as the attitude of the bad-mannered “elitists” you complain about.

Perhaps I could have expanded upon my definitions, probably should have, but I was off to a meeting and didn’t really have the time. (and as you can see, I haven’t really gotten back to this thread haha)

Yes, in the gaming community (from my experience) the term ‘Elitists’ is generally used in a derogatory fashion. Much the same way racist use the term ‘kitten’ ‘Cracker’ or ‘Camel Jockey.’ As such, my use of the title coincides with much of the stereotypical stuck up, prejudiced, player who may or may not actually have any skill. Could this be changed? Sure, with time. I’m not opposed to calling those jackkittens something else, but it’s going to take a huge effort to change the gaming perspective as a whole to remove the negative connotations of that title.

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

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Posted by: Dog.1472

Dog.1472

I was called an elitist just the other day for not killing mobs towards the end of Arah story mode, the part where it’s a timed event and the NPCs have been so overly buffed that they kill the mobs in seconds. The part where Zojja is chargin’ her laser. It was of course used in a derogatory sense.

Oh how the meaning of that word has changed.

“Please, you can look down on people without having to be physically above them.
As an asura, I do this all the time.”

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Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

I was called an elitist just the other day for not killing mobs towards the end of Arah story mode, the part where it’s a timed event and the NPCs have been so overly buffed that they kill the mobs in seconds. The part where Zojja is chargin’ her laser. It was of course used in a derogatory sense.

Oh how the meaning of that word has changed.

In my 10+ years of online gaming…..I’ve never heard/seen it used in a positive way.

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

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Posted by: Raine.1394

Raine.1394

What you described in the OP is not hatred for talent, but rather hatred for people with poor social skills. Your rhetorical announcing that you are a good player is simply an instance of poor social skills which will be met, obviously, with an outpouring of vitriol. I don’t support this response as we should show compassion to the disadvantaged among us, I’m simply stating the likely consequences of a given behavior.

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Posted by: gurugeorge.9857

gurugeorge.9857

Both boastfulness and envy are considered moral flaws.