Guild Wars 2

tolunart.2095:

tigirius.9014

Actually it’s kinda ironic that you mention that Tol because that’s exactly what we’re seeing here when it comes to rewards.

Other companies stopped making everything strickly RNG years ago so essentially the grind system they have in place for anything in this game is something that started in 1999 really. (could be older) Even the boxes from the store thing, other game devs learned that putting more valuable items into these boxes and increasing the big items drop rates slightly improved their sales. Other game devs learned that activities in the game that give currency should be used for everything the player needs so they have a reward system for that currency.
.

Yeah, the loot system in Rift is much better… like, the first person to “tag” an enemy in PvE play gets the loot, if you hit it second too bad. Or when you’re in a group and it randomly assigns loot to this person or that. Or even when something valuable drops – that you may or may not actually be able to use – then everyone gets to make a random roll to see who gets it.

Yeah, much better system, no RNG involved at all.

For me, there is one major flaw in the loot system of Guild Wars 2 compared to the typical need/greed system: If I’m with my friends/guildies in other games we can share the loot “fairly” among us using a far better distribution method than pure random chance. While it is possible to do that in GW2 with various random drops, it’s not possible with others, like Fractal Skins or Ascended Rings.

Guild Wars 2 must be the only MMORPG I’ve ever played that punishes a group of friends/guildies playing together, both for giving little to no reason to do so and for the extreme limitations in loot/reward distribution. How many times have you played Fractals and gotten a skin you either have no use for, or already have 3 or 4 of that, but your RL friend in your party has 0 and want it, and then he gets a skin you want but he doesn’t.

Devata.6589:

Yeah but There are subscription-based games, there are F2P games (Cash-shops) and there are B2P games. I would say B2P games should go for the long run and GW2 is a B2P game but with there current focus on the cash-shop it indeed looks like they are more or more focusing on the long run probably not understanding that by doing that they might destroy it for them-self in the long run. Now it is not to late yet but it’s really time to start rethinking there actions and hopefully they will do that in time.

It is like all those subscription-based MMO’s of the last few years.. The people behind that did see Blizz getting very very rich with that so they also focused on that, not understanding that it would not work anymore. Now all? those games failed (I personally can’t name one of them that has not been going F2P or totally stopped by now) so the wrong focus does more harm then good.

There isn’t really a separate B2P model, it’s just an upfront cost plus the cash shop. I don’t know if GW started out with one or not, but I bought a copy to access the Hall of Monuments here and it does indeed sell things through a cash shop. GW2, being a more complex game with more support staff and hardware to run, needs more income than box sales will provide.

The sub-based model is definitely dying. WoW is obsolete, it just takes a while for people to realize it. Even sub-based games add cash shops, Rift sold game upgrades and mounts, etc. and I heard WoW does as well.

The business as a whole isn’t really focused on the long term, they just need to appear to be because people aren’t going to buy into a game with the idea that they will drop it in a year or two for something better. Even though that’s what usually happens.

Erasculio.2914:

And changing a successful model for the sake of change is not the path to success, either. Unless that’s how you run your own successful company?.

I agree, I said in response to another poster that either extreme is to be avoided. But this example is simply recognizing that GW and GW2 are different games and should be treated differently. Treating GW2 like GW will not be successful because it is a bigger game, with a bigger staff, more ambitious plans, and more expenses. Obviously they have already decided that pushing out an expansion every six months is not going to work.

…So your solution is to make crafting nodes work like they did in games released ten years ago? I see.

Um, no. I didn’t offer a solution. I actually prefer GW2 to Rift’s loot system, including crafting nodes and the TP. So were I to make a suggestion, it would be that other games should follow GW2’s example.

Other people see this as a problem. I don’t.

tolunart.2095:

tigirius.9014:

Oh and btw I hit DR when I’m simply doing my daily so that theory you had earlier doesn’t apply actually. Some people are basically stuck with permaDR and I just happen to have one of those accounts unfortunately.

No matter how many times you say this, it still will not become true.

Riiiight and my screenies and videos don’t prove a thing right? yeah come play on my computer for 1 day and you’ll see what happens every time. Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t make it false and I’m not the only one this happens to, plenty of other people having this same thing happen to them.

maddoctor.2738:

For me, there is one major flaw in the loot system of Guild Wars 2 compared to the typical need/greed system: If I’m with my friends/guildies in other games we can share the loot “fairly” among us using a far better distribution method than pure random chance. While it is possible to do that in GW2 with various random drops, it’s not possible with others, like Fractal Skins or Ascended Rings.

Guild Wars 2 must be the only MMORPG I’ve ever played that punishes a group of friends/guildies playing together, both for giving little to no reason to do so and for the extreme limitations in loot/reward distribution. How many times have you played Fractals and gotten a skin you either have no use for, or already have 3 or 4 of that, but your RL friend in your party has 0 and want it, and then he gets a skin you want but he doesn’t.

I have a very different experience. I mostly play solo or with my wife, and the only guild I’m a member of is our own private guild, so that we can share the bank space. That is why I believe the game was created with players like me in mind, because in a system like Rift I end up in PUGs where no one knows me or cares whether I can use an item or not, they’ll usually roll Need on anything they can just because it’s valuable.

So the loot system is perfect for me, not so much for you.

tolunart.2095:

Erasculio.2914:

And changing a successful model for the sake of change is not the path to success, either. Unless that’s how you run your own successful company?.

I agree, I said in response to another poster that either extreme is to be avoided. But this example is simply recognizing that GW and GW2 are different games and should be treated differently. Treating GW2 like GW will not be successful because it is a bigger game, with a bigger staff, more ambitious plans, and more expenses. Obviously they have already decided that pushing out an expansion every six months is not going to work.

…So your solution is to make crafting nodes work like they did in games released ten years ago? I see.

Um, no. I didn’t offer a solution. I actually prefer GW2 to Rift’s loot system, including crafting nodes and the TP. So were I to make a suggestion, it would be that other games should follow GW2’s example.

Other people see this as a problem. I don’t.

Well as someone who’s never had a loot drop issue until GW2 November 2012 in any of the 15 mmo’s or 3 2d hack and slash games I’ve ever played (save 1 D3 that used the same model GW2 was using and lost 60% of their players) I can say I truly enjoy the loot systems in other games and not GW2, where you could actually get rewarded for your time doing the things they wanted you to do. In Rift specifically I could do nothing but Rifts and invasions (the equivolant of the DE’s and metas in GW2) and always count on getting worthy currency, items that could be used for crafting end game consumables and gear, and currency. In this game I get currency which doesn’t buy anything beyond the initial gear bought in temples, buys boxes that almost never drops any T6 mats at all and I hit DR long before I can get anything to drop off the temporary mobs in these events.

Rift is by far superior in the rewards department, even if someone got bored with doing Rifts they could always count on getting rewarded.

I’m hoping they come to their senses with this patch to improve rewards on this game I really do.

tigirius.9014:

Riiiight and my screenies and videos don’t prove a thing right?

Correct. You tried to “prove” this already and didn’t convince anyone of anything, including Anet customer support.

I’ve been doing the “big chest” events in the starter areas/dragons the last few hours, and aside from the bonus chest I didn’t get any yellows in the loot drops for the first few. Oh no! It must be DR! I’m cursed!

Wait, then I did one and got two yellows. The next chest I got an exotic.

You EXPECT to receive a certain reward and think that the computer is somehow prejudiced against you when you don’t get it. But that’s not the case, sometimes people get a run of bad luck, like those threads people keep posting about ecto salvages. Getting 0-1 ectos per salvage in a run of five or six attempts is not a bug. Getting bad loot for a while is not a bug.

The vast majority of drops are going to be white/blue and some greens. If you got rares every few kills then they would be as common as greens, and they’d be selling on the TP for 1c above vendor price. Then people would complain that rares aren’t actually rare, and exotics are the only thing worth trying for, and they don’t drop often enough.

It’s already heading in that direction, the bonus rares everyone gets from multiple events drove down the cost of ectos and rares, and many exotics sell for a gold or two. The only really expensive items are no longer dropping, require crafting in the Mystic Forge, or are ultra-rare like the precursor weapons.

tigirius.9014:

Rift is by far superior in the rewards department, even if someone got bored with doing Rifts they could always count on getting rewarded.

I played Rift for two years. People ran out of things to buy with planarite, coin was almost useless after you played for a while, and the best equipment was reserved for raiders for PvE and people who spent weeks getting beat up in PvP until they geared up for it.

Things only changed when they released an expansion and reset the levels and gear so that max-level toons had to essentially start over and regear. Even then I got bored with the game when I learned how to play the TP and had more than enough coin to outfit every alt.

Erasculio.2914:

fellyn.5083:

So time spent playing a game shouldn’t be rewarded according to you. What should we be rewarded for doing?

Skill. Playing the game well. If you read some old ArenaNet interviews, you will see how they liked to say “skill > time spent”.

When they talked about skill though it was in terms of PvP, not PvE and loot. They were saying skill as it pertained to other MMO’s and how they have gear progression and GW2 does not. I agree with your criticisms of RNG and PvE loot, but you are sorely off base with the skill argument because it isn’t in the right context.

tolunart.2095:

tigirius.9014:

Riiiight and my screenies and videos don’t prove a thing right?

Correct. You tried to “prove” this already and didn’t convince anyone of anything, including Anet customer support.

I’ve been doing the “big chest” events in the starter areas/dragons the last few hours, and aside from the bonus chest I didn’t get any yellows in the loot drops for the first few. Oh no! It must be DR! I’m cursed!

Wait, then I did one and got two yellows. The next chest I got an exotic.

You EXPECT to receive a certain reward and think that the computer is somehow prejudiced against you when you don’t get it. But that’s not the case, sometimes people get a run of bad luck, like those threads people keep posting about ecto salvages. Getting 0-1 ectos per salvage in a run of five or six attempts is not a bug. Getting bad loot for a while is not a bug.

The vast majority of drops are going to be white/blue and some greens. If you got rares every few kills then they would be as common as greens, and they’d be selling on the TP for 1c above vendor price. Then people would complain that rares aren’t actually rare, and exotics are the only thing worth trying for, and they don’t drop often enough.

It’s already heading in that direction, the bonus rares everyone gets from multiple events drove down the cost of ectos and rares, and many exotics sell for a gold or two. The only really expensive items are no longer dropping, require crafting in the Mystic Forge, or are ultra-rare like the precursor weapons.

You can say this a hundred times, still doesn’t make it true.

Like I said “I’m hoping they come to their senses with this patch to improve rewards on this game I really do.”

They’ve already made it known they know there’s an issue with rewards system, you’re trying to prove otherwise by arguing everyone who’s already pointed out the flaws doesn’t change their replies to people on this very same topic nor does it discredit people because they are indeed working on the rewards system. So not really sure what you’re trying to do here honestly other then try to start arguments you can’t win.

@ Erasculio

The skill argument doesn’t apply either because they try to get the widest audience they can. The open world is specifically designed with people who aren’t going to do the harder content, they aren’t less skilled they are just less motivated to do more work in a game that’s supposed to be about fun. Also, they have plenty of currencies they could be using to get the rewards people need already. One of which ironically is skill points from leveling. I heard someone reply that he had 400 skill points. Shouldn’t those points be put to use or should they just sit there like achievement points and take up virtual space?

Who’s arguing? I teach, but I can’t make anyone learn.

tigirius.9014:

One of which ironically is skill points from leveling. I heard someone reply that he had 400 skill points. Shouldn’t those points be put to use or should they just sit there like achievement points and take up virtual space?

Skill points are used in conjunction with the Mystic Forge to create items. Legendary weapons are the most prominent – the Gift of Mastery required to make one costs 200 skill points for one ingredient, and mystic clovers can also require skill points. But there are lesser weapons which require an ingredient that costs 50 skill points. The fellow with 400 skill points could spend them on these weapons, and sell them or equip them.

Yes, there are some potential avenues that have not been completely explored. But by no means have they ignored alternate means of obtaining items. The same weapons also often require items bought with dungeon tokens and other materials to craft. However, if people do not seek out these things in order to make the items, why would Anet make more?

tolunart.2095:

maddoctor.2738:

For me, there is one major flaw in the loot system of Guild Wars 2 compared to the typical need/greed system: If I’m with my friends/guildies in other games we can share the loot “fairly” among us using a far better distribution method than pure random chance. While it is possible to do that in GW2 with various random drops, it’s not possible with others, like Fractal Skins or Ascended Rings.

Guild Wars 2 must be the only MMORPG I’ve ever played that punishes a group of friends/guildies playing together, both for giving little to no reason to do so and for the extreme limitations in loot/reward distribution. How many times have you played Fractals and gotten a skin you either have no use for, or already have 3 or 4 of that, but your RL friend in your party has 0 and want it, and then he gets a skin you want but he doesn’t.

I have a very different experience. I mostly play solo or with my wife, and the only guild I’m a member of is our own private guild, so that we can share the bank space. That is why I believe the game was created with players like me in mind, because in a system like Rift I end up in PUGs where no one knows me or cares whether I can use an item or not, they’ll usually roll Need on anything they can just because it’s valuable.

So the loot system is perfect for me, not so much for you.

I only want a “change” in the loot system on some very particular places, not everywhere. I despise the Need/Greed everywhere, I just want a better way to reward people for doing dungeon content, instanced-party based content. And besides, unless I’m missing something, my “suggestion” wouldn’t hurt a player that only runs in PUGs, it would just offer something for big groups of friends playing together

@tigirious:
Even if it’s true that some accounts are “cursed” or flagged or whatever, it’s impossible to prove it.

That doesn’t mean that I don’t experience something odd with their reward system as well. A player that has almost one fractal skin on every 48 fotm run, also has sclerite weapon ticket, holographic wings dropped after the first 10 mobs, around 5 jade tickets without even farming, just by running around… All the people I know that got a precursor drop sometime in their gw2 life, also have Jade Tickets (some more than 1) coincidence? Maybe.

On the other hand, I am at 1000+ coffers opened and still no jade ticket and of course I have the amazing amount of 5 fractal skins after countless fotm runs.

I know it’s just RNG… but it’s still odd that some people have luck in everything they do, while others have nothing. Sometime we will get the great skin drops and they will get nothing, then the “curse” will be lifted, until then…

Iason Evan.3806:

When they talked about skill though it was in terms of PvP, not PvE and loot.

Nope. This is the same ages old discussion we had in the original Guild Wars, when people claimed it was a PvP game while in fact the PvE part of the game has always been the target of more investment.

What so many people cannot understand is that when they say “PvE”, what they are actually meaning is “PvE based on grind as seen in every other MMORPG”. This is not what Guild Wars is about, so no wonder some people think it’s not a PvE game.

Likewise, the idea of “skill > time spent” has been meant for all aspects of the game, both PvE and PvP. Unwillingness to accept this is the unwillingness to accept a PvE MMORPG without grind.

tolunart.2095:

Erasculio.2914:

And changing a successful model for the sake of change is not the path to success, either. Unless that’s how you run your own successful company?.

I agree, I said in response to another poster that either extreme is to be avoided. But this example is simply recognizing that GW and GW2 are different games and should be treated differently. Treating GW2 like GW will not be successful because it is a bigger game, with a bigger staff, more ambitious plans, and more expenses. Obviously they have already decided that pushing out an expansion every six months is not going to work.

…So your solution is to make crafting nodes work like they did in games released ten years ago? I see.

Um, no. I didn’t offer a solution. I actually prefer GW2 to Rift’s loot system, including crafting nodes and the TP. So were I to make a suggestion, it would be that other games should follow GW2’s example.

Other people see this as a problem. I don’t.

But if people are complaining about RNG / gem-store focus they are not complaining about the ‘normal’ way you loot stuff or the crafting nodes. Is more the fact that you can’t really farm many mats so need to farm for gold, (what many people find boring) and then buy the mats and the temporary content (mainly in the gem-store).

Solution would not be that hard. Do it more like MF and SaB and make mats farmable. Put also more stuff in to farm.. but thats a discussion about end-content not gem-store focus / RNG. So people can farm the stuff they want / need in stead of farming for gold. Then stop with temporary content (in the game or in the gem-store) but just put items in the gem-store people are willing to buy. If they are willing to spend the money they will and those who won;t spend money in gems (or not all at once) will also stay and play. In addition make sure there is an expansion every 1 year. Maybe a very very big expansion with a break of 2 years. That should keep people happy and should bring enough money in I think. If it is really true that they need to use the aggressive gem-store focus (to make the money to keep the game running) they now do (what some people suggest) that would mean this game would be gone in a year because they will not be able to hold people much longer with this tactic. I simply don’t believe that.

They just do it to make more money, not to be able to keep it running.. and that I totally understand but by doing so they might destroy there income for the long run. If they don’t change that tactic fast enough.

But I starting to repeat myself so I think it’s time to leave this thread.

Your solution, then, is to tear the game apart and turn it into every other MMO on the market?

Why don’t you play any other MMO on the market instead, and let this game be what it is?

Like the original Guild Wars, this game is unique – on purpose – and meant to be an experiment. They chose to do things different from other MMOs for a reason. Not all experiments are successful, but if you abandon it in the middle and change the game into a copy of every other game out there then you will only drive away the people who appreciate its unique features without bringing in the people who are already satisfied with the games they play now.

That is a good way to ensure failure. To continue as they have been may fail, but it may succeed.

tolunart.2095:

You’re solution, then, is to tear the game apart and turn it into every other MMO on the market?

Why don’t you play any other MMO on the market instead, and let this game be what it is?

Which is what exactly?

tolunart.2095:

You’re solution, then, is to tear the game apart and turn it into every other MMO on the market?

Why don’t you play any other MMO on the market instead, and let this game be what it is?

This part would then be like some (not all) other MMO’s indeed. But there are many aspects of GW2 that are the same as other MMO’s (should we then remove all those aspects? Or why not make it a FPS, at least then it does not look like any other MMO).

I am getting a little bid tired of this “thats also in another MMO so it’s bad” attitude.

The way it now works is also like many other MMO’s on the market.. Many F2P MMO’s do it this way (this or pay 2 win). So if they then copy something I would say do not copy this from the F2P MMO games.

Just because something is differed (and this isn’t, but still) does not make it good and just because something is the same it does not make it bad. The trick is to take the best of all and something more. GW2 has many good things and a few bad things. Sadly the bad thinks might be a game-breaker for many people and they are indeed doing what you are saying.. they switch to other mmo’s. I do give GW2 some more time to get it right.

Devata.6589:

I am getting a little bid tired of this “thats also in another MMO so it’s bad” attitude.
.

The thing is, the stuff in other MMOs that you want put into this game ARE the bad parts. The stuff you want taken out are the things I like about this game.

They ARE what makes this game different from other MMOs. If they were taken out, I would lose a lot of my motivation to play the game.

If you don’t like those things about the game, there are a lot of other games that do things the way you like. Go play them.

I like playing this game because of those things that you don’t like. If there’s another game out there that does things just like GW2 let me know. So far as I know, you have many choices, I have one.

So of course the solution to YOUR problem is to take away the one game that I like and turn it into another one just like all the other games you like.

I believe there are enough people out there who like the game the way it is, that it can survive without all the people who want it to become something it’s not. Hopefully the devs agree with me, but if not then I will continue searching for a game that suits me.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

I am getting a little bid tired of this “thats also in another MMO so it’s bad” attitude.
.

The thing is, the stuff in other MMOs that you want put into this game ARE the bad parts. The stuff you want taken out are the things I like about this game.

I believe there are enough people out there who like the game the way it is, that it can survive without all the people who want it to become something it’s not. Hopefully the devs agree with me, but if not then I will continue searching for a game that suits me.

Ah yeah. The RNG and the gem-store focus is the good part of GW2. That is why so many people are complaining about it.

Well and I believe there are just a few people who like the RNG and gem-store focus in GW2 and they will leave when all the other people left because it’s empty.

LOL I’m not complaining about it, and neither are most of the people playing the game instead of ripping it apart here.

tolunart.2095:

LOL I’m not complaining about it, and neither are most of the people playing the game instead of ripping it apart here.

You are not, don’t know if ‘most’ that are playing also don’t, but many that play or already left do / did.

It has nothing to do with ripping it apart here. Just always saying everything is fine or not talking about it here and just leaving is more harmful. Letting your voice hear here might help the game to get better. I do hope they will do something with the comments.

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

LOL I’m not complaining about it, and neither are most of the people playing the game instead of ripping it apart here.

You are not, don’t know if probably ‘most’ that are playing also don’t but many thay play or already left do / did.

It has nothing to do with ripping it apart here. Just saying everything is fine or not talking about it here and just leaving is more harmful. Letting your voice hear here might help the game get better. I do hope they will do something with the comments.

You are welcome to express your opinion, just as I am.

My complaint about RNG has always been the RNG in the store. I do not feel RNG items should be sold in the store, instead the stuff that those RNG items offer should just be sold right out.

Example, skins in the boxes should just be sold as a individual skin that I purchase for a set amount of gems instead of selling me a better chance at a skin from the boxes in the store. Dyes also should just be sold per color instead of a random set of colors.

Erasculio.2914:

tolunart.2095:

Erasculio.2914:

Tolmos.8395:

If you have another suggestion on how they can afford to keep the servers up without us needing to buy gems for cosmetic things that we want in the game, please by all means share it with the crowd

Using the same system seen in the original Guild Wars. This isn’t exactly hard to figure out.

I hope you don’t own or manage a company. Just keep doing things the same way you did ten years ago is not the path to success.

And changing a successful model for the sake of change is not the path to success, either. Unless that’s how you run your own successful company?

And for the records…

tolunart.2095:

The second biggest problem is crafting – nodes are usable by everyone, not just the first person to get to it, so the market is flooded with crafting mats and its use in leveling means that a lot of people end up with crafted goods they don’t need, and sell them on the TP.

…So your solution is to make crafting nodes work like they did in games released ten years ago? I see.

So because it was done ten years ago it’s automatically bad? Come on. There are ups and downs to having every node usable by everybody. The ups are that you can get what you need whenever. The bad is that it lowers the market value. Some prefer one way, others prefer the other. In either case, it was one of the main reasons that crafting is mostly not that profitable.

AlietteFaye.7316:

So because it was done ten years ago it’s automatically bad? Come on. There are ups and downs to having every node usable by everybody. The ups are that you can get what you need whenever. The bad is that it lowers the market value. Some prefer one way, others prefer the other. In either case, it was one of the main reasons that crafting is mostly not that profitable.

But when you have piles of gold and a bank full of mats, it’s an easy way to put some levels on an alt without taking a long time.

Vayne.8563:

Except that it’s not the same thing as the original Guild Wars. You can’t possibly compare a lobby game to a full MMO and you certainly can’t compare a staff of 50 to a staff of over 300 people. Nor can you compare the speed at which content is provided, whether you like the content or not.

If the only way they can fund a major B2P game is with a cash shop with RMT like GW2 then the funding model will die.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

Except that it’s not the same thing as the original Guild Wars. You can’t possibly compare a lobby game to a full MMO and you certainly can’t compare a staff of 50 to a staff of over 300 people. Nor can you compare the speed at which content is provided, whether you like the content or not.

If the only way they can fund a major B2P game is with a cash shop with RMT like GW2 then the funding model will die.

Yeah if. But I do not believe that. I think this is just to make ‘more’ money. And I do believe it works… on the short run. Then again, it is most likely bad for them in the long run if they do not do that different.

It’s called B2P because it’s funded with buying the game (and expansions). Fund it with something else and you can’t really name it a B2P game anymore and the fact is that for a lot of people the reason to give GW2 a try is because it was B2P in stead of subscription or F2P.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

Except that it’s not the same thing as the original Guild Wars. You can’t possibly compare a lobby game to a full MMO and you certainly can’t compare a staff of 50 to a staff of over 300 people. Nor can you compare the speed at which content is provided, whether you like the content or not.

If the only way they can fund a major B2P game is with a cash shop with RMT like GW2 then the funding model will die.

Nothing remains popular forever. It’s no different with subscription games. The company has to understand that eventually the number of subscriptions will decrease, and when that happens they will start downsizing their teams. It’s just the lifecycle of an MMO.

In this game, it’s a store instead of subscriptions. Instead of everyone paying “their fair share”, the bulk of the income comes from those interested in buying. And since many people pay more than $15 a month in gems, it seems to even out.

Tolmos.8395:

In this game, it’s a store instead of subscriptions. Instead of everyone paying “their fair share”, the bulk of the income comes from those interested in buying. And since many people pay more than $15 a month in gems, it seems to even out.

Difference is GW2 funnels players towards using the cash shop, IMHO it essentially corrupts the game to do so. Subscription based games don’t.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

My complaint about RNG has always been the RNG in the store. I do not feel RNG items should be sold in the store, instead the stuff that those RNG items offer should just be sold right out.

Example, skins in the boxes should just be sold as a individual skin that I purchase for a set amount of gems instead of selling me a better chance at a skin from the boxes in the store. Dyes also should just be sold per color instead of a random set of colors.

Spot on, most mmos give players the ability to bypass poor RNG with other systems. GW2 does in some aspects but not in a lot of others, the lack of consistency in reward systems across the game is hugely annoying and implies a lack of an overall design philosophy that all parts of the game should adhere to.

morrolan.9608:

Tolmos.8395:

In this game, it’s a store instead of subscriptions. Instead of everyone paying “their fair share”, the bulk of the income comes from those interested in buying. And since many people pay more than $15 a month in gems, it seems to even out.

Difference is GW2 funnels players towards using the cash shop, IMHO it essentially corrupts the game to do so. Subscription based games don’t.

But then again nearly all subscription based games of the last few years failed… as subscription based game that is. So that also does not work. Now I think it’s nonsense to think the the gem-buyers are keeping this game running. They are mainly giving a bigger profit. This is a B2P game. People who buy the game and expansions are keeping this game running… if there would be an expansion that is.

Sadly many decisions that are made purely to get people to buy gems (because, for now, that is working) are not good for the game and might harm the game in the long run. So I think if you really want to support buy the game itself, buy expansions, go for the collectors editions.

morrolan.9608:

Difference is GW2 funnels players towards using the cash shop, IMHO it essentially corrupts the game to do so. Subscription based games don’t.

That’s a good one!

Sub-based games give you an endless revolving door to go through where you never quite get there but you can always see the exit.

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

I understand and disagree.

Of course they are not focused on the long run. A subscription-based MMO is focused on the long run because they make their money from X players paying monthly fees for Y months. The longer they get players to stay on the hamster wheel, the more money they make.

Cash-shop based games are focused on the short term, because if you aren’t interested in the Jade weapons set, then the Steampunk weapons set might get you to whip out your credit card. Or the next set, or the next.

Yeah but There are subscription-based games, there are F2P games (Cash-shops) and there are B2P games. I would say B2P games should go for the long run and GW2 is a B2P game but with there current focus on the cash-shop it indeed looks like they are more or more focusing on the long run probably not understanding that by doing that they might destroy it for them-self in the long run. Now it is not to late yet but it’s really time to start rethinking there actions and hopefully they will do that in time.

It is like all those subscription-based MMO’s of the last few years.. The people behind that did see Blizz getting very very rich with that so they also focused on that, not understanding that it would not work anymore. Now all? those games failed (I personally can’t name one of them that has not been going F2P or totally stopped by now) so the wrong focus does more harm then good.

There are very very very few buy to play MMOs and I can’t think of ANY buy to play MMOs that launched as B2P besides Guild Wars 2. Games like TSW for example, may be buy to play now but it launched with a subscription fee. Guild Wars 2 is the only b2p MMO that launched as a B2P game. Even Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a true MMO.

From the beginning Anet said the cash shop would be part of the business plan for this game and that it would be important to keep the money flowing in so they could keep creating content.

So if you don’t want the content, and you want to sit around for months or years at a time to get the next patch, I guess they should focus less on the cash shop. It’s not realistic.

Box sales for a B2P game MUST slow down as everyone who’s interested in the game buys it. There aren’t more people newly interested in it, than people who bought it at launch. So who plays the 300 employees of the company? Where is all this content coming from? Who’s financing it?

It’s not reasonable to expect a game to give content upgrades and work on bug fixes with no real incoming. Guild Wars 1 didn’t update this fast (and didn’t have to back then, but today it probably would have had to).

People need to reassess what’s reasonable for a company to make to keep a new MMORPG running.

tolunart.2095:

Sub-based games give you an endless revolving door to go through where you never quite get there but you can always see the exit.

Apart from the most grindy games its usually easier to get the gear you want in a sub game than it is in GW2.

morrolan.9608:

tolunart.2095:

Sub-based games give you an endless revolving door to go through where you never quite get there but you can always see the exit.

Apart from the most grindy games its usually easier to get the gear you want in a sub game than it is in GW2.

Oh sure. But in those games it’s no gear you want…it’s gear you NEED. If I never get a jade weapon skin, my game doesn’t change at all.

That can’t be said for gear in other games.

tolunart.2095:

I understand and disagree.

Of course they are not focused on the long run. A subscription-based MMO is focused on the long run because they make their money from X players paying monthly fees for Y months. The longer they get players to stay on the hamster wheel, the more money they make.

Cash-shop based games are focused on the short term, because if you aren’t interested in the Jade weapons set, then the Steampunk weapons set might get you to whip out your credit card. Or the next set, or the next. When they run out of interesting things to sell you, the game is over.

Gotta say sounds like a terrible way to do business and i’m not surprised why so many are giving this thing up, if that’s the way they run it, i want no part of it.

Vayne.8563:

There big question is, as always, what percentage of people are scared away, compared with a small percentage of people that spend stupid money on stuff.

A game can get away with a much smaller playerbase, if people are throwing money at it. So even if people are scared away it may not mean that much. It depends how many people are happy to pay.

Untrue. If there is much smaller playerbase, then even people that would otherwise be okey with blowing wads of cash on rng boxes will start to leave. And most of the people that do blow lot of money on gambling in a cash shop will burn out very fast as well. You need big enough population in the game to attract enough new spenders to balance for those that left, at the very least – and that mean much more than the spenders themselves.

GW1 shop was very succesful, without scaring people away. It would have been possible to duplicate in GW2 – but Anet preferred a quick cash grab to steady longer income.

tolunart.2095:

If they weren’t so rare you’d have rares and exotics selling for 1c above vendor price, as well, and LA would be painted black from all the toons swinging Twilight around.

You are saying as if it was a bad thing.

RNG is a common mechanic in games. If you get it, you are lucky and it keeps the exclusivity, if everyone runs around with a Legendary it isn’t exclusive anymore. It’s totally normal and I really don’t understand why people keep complaining about RNG. It was in GW1 (e.g. rare skins from chests like the Voltaic Spear) as it is in every other (MMO-)RPG.

morrolan.9608:

Tolmos.8395:

In this game, it’s a store instead of subscriptions. Instead of everyone paying “their fair share”, the bulk of the income comes from those interested in buying. And since many people pay more than $15 a month in gems, it seems to even out.

Difference is GW2 funnels players towards using the cash shop, IMHO it essentially corrupts the game to do so. Subscription based games don’t.

Funnel? I’m not feeling forced to buy anything. If ANet is designing the game to entice spending, then they’re doing a better job of it than any sub game.

I’m not spending another dime to rent a game from a developer whose only motivation is to provide gated content and mechanics designed to slow down gameplay so I pay longer. To me, that is a worse abuse. Here, I can choose to spend or not. There, I don’t even get access to the game unless I shell out each month.

RNG is needed but annoying imo.
As people said time usefully spent should be rewarded.
I dont really get rewarded for my time played tbh, the amount of money I can make properly playing the game (wvw, living story, occasional dungeons) is nothing compared to some guy nolifing cof1 or even worse, killing an ooze in cursed shore and dropping a dusk. So some guy who plays 2h a week and spent 1h of that roleplaying in LA just got 500g from a drop while I have “worked” for 500g for the last 2-3 months. Simply unfair as I see it.
Also people sitting next to the TP flipping stuff can make 10x more cash then someone actually playing the game.
For the amount of time I have spent on this game I have not been rewarded properly, everything I own has come from selling absolute junk to the TP/vendor.
There is definitely room for improvement, but not much can be changed, RNG has to stay. Biggest problem in my eyes are the precursors, loads of gold rewarded for dumb luck while farming/wvw etc gives you basically nothing. As soon as the scavenger hunt is introduced it will be much more fair imo. Im not really bothered about some coffers and tickets and stuff like that.
Anet should really add rewards for achievements like they did with the dragon wings and sclerite karka shell etc. Maybe add some rewards for e.g. dungeon master achievement, wvw 250k kills etc, thats a nice and simple way to at least somehow reward people for their time.

Vayne.8563:

Box sales for a B2P game MUST slow down as everyone who’s interested in the game buys it. There aren’t more people newly interested in it, than people who bought it at launch. So who plays the 300 employees of the company? Where is all this content coming from? Who’s financing it?

It’s not reasonable to expect a game to give content upgrades and work on bug fixes with no real incoming. Guild Wars 1 didn’t update this fast (and didn’t have to back then, but today it probably would have had to).

People need to reassess what’s reasonable for a company to make to keep a new MMORPG running.

Well I indeed prefer less patches if they are of better quality and no temporary content. Who pays it? The same way as none MMO’s are payed.. Why you think the box-sales would not be enough for an MMO but they are enough for all other games on the market.. Yes keeping it running cost some more money then another game but making a new expansion cost less then making a totally new game (like that go’s with none-mmo’s) so the evens out. If they would have focused on a expansions (and lets hope they do, and there claim that they are not working on it was just to make it as a surprise) then we might have gotten a big expansion 2 months from now (1 year anniversary). The first box-sales would have then payed the game for the first year and the expansion would have paid it for the next year. And when I say paid I mean they make money.. The gem-store would then just have been a nice extra. The whole living story stuff sins January with exception of MF dungeon could have been left out. SaB and MF as permanent would have kept people playing and the then now soon upcoming expansion would have kept people interested.

tolunart.2095:

AlietteFaye.7316:

So because it was done ten years ago it’s automatically bad? Come on. There are ups and downs to having every node usable by everybody. The ups are that you can get what you need whenever. The bad is that it lowers the market value. Some prefer one way, others prefer the other. In either case, it was one of the main reasons that crafting is mostly not that profitable.

But when you have piles of gold and a bank full of mats, it’s an easy way to put some levels on an alt without taking a long time.

Yes, it is. But that literally seems to be the only use for crafting. It’s a sort of “one and done” system and is pretty useless after you’re 80. Yes, you can use it to craft yourself some exotics if you have the correct disciplines, but it becomes something you forget about after that.

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

You’re solution, then, is to tear the game apart and turn it into every other MMO on the market?

Why don’t you play any other MMO on the market instead, and let this game be what it is?

I am getting a little bid tired of this “thats also in another MMO so it’s bad” attitude.

I am too man. There’s a reason why WoW has lasted as long as it has with the type of numbers it’s had with a subscription model in a growing F2P market. Adaptation

That’s right. they kept the game going by adapting to the times to the needs of the players. They enhanced the ui, they added various awards systems (one of my favorites was turning in rare materials for an engineer profession only enchantment system), they made adjustments to content multiple times, they allowed players to do as much as they possibly could within the limited confines of the games mechanics. That’s how you keep your playerbase, you keep the game updated keep it modern make it more available to more players by not limiting the heck out of it and one of the ways you improve it is by improving the rewards system constantly.

RNG is really really old, it has been proven to be unreliable time and time again. The problem comes when the developers of any game don’t learn from the history of mmo development already experienced multiple times by multiple gamers in multiple mmo’s. That’s why people left in droves from SWTOR because EA made the same exact mistakes that were made years ago and didn’t bother to have actual gamers on staff who could tell them what not to do. By the time they started listening to the players it was too late and they had no choice but to make the game F2P and move on, and even then they tried in the beginning to use the infamous Sony Freemium model that limits everything, until they got backlash from that too and finally changed.

So what we’re seeing here is typical but not pleasant and claiming that something good from another game shouldn’t be adapted for this one is just ignorant and will keep the game from growing in both population and popularity in the future.

Over the weekend on Lion’s Arch there were a bunch of people kittening about how those wings are pointless since everyone has them.

“Why reward something that is so common”

I pointed out that funny enough, that is something that RNG can solve. RNG = not everyone will get the item and you maintain exclusivity.

Of course, people continued to kitten

Devata.6589:

Lol, most complains I here and the reason that people stop playing GW2 all comes down to the gem-store focus. The gold-driven system and the RNG has a lot to do with that.

How do you get anything in this game? Being lucky, farming gold (there are like 3 ways to do that) or buy money. Well, not a small part of the player base but a huge part does not like that. Why where so many people so enthusiastic about SAB and MF?

Really? How do you know that a huge part do not like this? Where is your statistical evidence?

Devata.6589:

Almost nobody likes to just farm for gold, or buy gems to get the stuff you need. Most people don’t like that they want multiple ways playing the game, getting that. Doing dungeons, doing JP’s, doing WvW or killing mobs but not farming for gold. using real money to buy it…. And then still having a big change of not getting it.

Again, where is your proof of this?

Devata.6589:

If you really think it’s just a small part of the people I can ensure you you are wrong. But we both don’t have the numbers to proof it.

How can you assure me that? Eurogamer wrote an article on this very thing. The article used Assassin’s Creed for their statistical evidence. They said that the differences in opinions of very vocal forum posters and the thousands of other people playing were very different when they took surveys and polls. All I had to do to find this information was to do some very simple Google searches.

It is human nature for those not liking something to complain about it while those who are content or even like something will not say anything. And while I do not have actual numbers for this, I know from looking at the high number of people playing on many servers, that there are many more people playing the game than there are of those posting complaints about it in the forums. There are hundreds of posters in all of the forums commenting on all manner of subjects. There are thousands and thousands of people playing in game. They are not all posting on the forums, so yes, forum posters are in the minority. This isn’t just my guessing, there are many articles out there about internet forums compared to actual participants.

I just do not understand how you can claim these things with no proof. I would be more than happy to look into anything you had to prove what you say. I would even back you up if you had something solid to show me. Until then, I go with what I have read and that is that those who complain about anything on internet forums are usually in the minority because it is the nature of people with complaints to be vocal while those content are not.

Erasculio.2914:

…Is how much of it is made by people who want to keep something as bad as RNG in place.

The worst RNG in the game is the one that rewards luck (something which doesn’t really deserve a reward) and has been set in place so people keep buying RNG boxes in order to try to find items. It’s a mediocre design, based on the idea that players are foolish enough to waste their money on RNG boxes.

At the same time, the great majority of the community (and thus the great majority of the complainers) are grinders, farmers and so on.

And guess what? Farming rewards time spent (something which doesn’t really deserve a reward) and has been set in place so people keep grinding in order to try to find better items. It’s a mediocre design, based on the idea that players are foolish enough to waste their time on grind.

I wonder if we will soon have players addicted to RNG, just like we have players addicted to farming, claiming it’s a good thing. One design is as bad as the other, and both have been set in place to milk money from players, not to make good games.

I like this post! This illustrates the two extremes in multiplayer RPG design. Developers continue to struggle to balance these two sides of the equation. They will never be able to please everyone in this regard.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Box sales for a B2P game MUST slow down as everyone who’s interested in the game buys it. There aren’t more people newly interested in it, than people who bought it at launch. So who plays the 300 employees of the company? Where is all this content coming from? Who’s financing it?

It’s not reasonable to expect a game to give content upgrades and work on bug fixes with no real incoming. Guild Wars 1 didn’t update this fast (and didn’t have to back then, but today it probably would have had to).

People need to reassess what’s reasonable for a company to make to keep a new MMORPG running.

Well I indeed prefer less patches if they are of better quality and no temporary content. Who pays it? The same way as none MMO’s are payed.. Why you think the box-sales would not be enough for an MMO but they are enough for all other games on the market.. Yes keeping it running cost some more money then another game but making a new expansion cost less then making a totally new game (like that go’s with none-mmo’s) so the evens out. If they would have focused on a expansions (and lets hope they do, and there claim that they are not working on it was just to make it as a surprise) then we might have gotten a big expansion 2 months from now (1 year anniversary). The first box-sales would have then payed the game for the first year and the expansion would have paid it for the next year. And when I say paid I mean they make money.. The gem-store would then just have been a nice extra. The whole living story stuff sins January with exception of MF dungeon could have been left out. SaB and MF as permanent would have kept people playing and the then now soon upcoming expansion would have kept people interested.

I don’t think you get it. You won’t have less patches…you’ll have no patches. Because that’s what keeps people coming in and spending money which pays the guys who make the content.

From a business point of view, today an MMO today really does have to come out constantly with new stuff, or it loses market share. It’s not like it was five years ago.

They can’t make an expansion fast enough with the complexity and testing needed to keep people interested. People burn through content.

You’re saying you’d rather have better content less often…so would I…but not at the expense of the overall game.

If they game came out with six months upgrades, it would probably not enough enough income to stay alive. I can’t prove it, but I do believe it.

jheryn.8390:

Devata.6589:

Lol, most complains I here and the reason that people stop playing GW2 all comes down to the gem-store focus. The gold-driven system and the RNG has a lot to do with that.

How do you get anything in this game? Being lucky, farming gold (there are like 3 ways to do that) or buy money. Well, not a small part of the player base but a huge part does not like that. Why where so many people so enthusiastic about SAB and MF?

Really? How do you know that a huge part do not like this? Where is your statistical evidence?

Devata.6589:

Almost nobody likes to just farm for gold, or buy gems to get the stuff you need. Most people don’t like that they want multiple ways playing the game, getting that. Doing dungeons, doing JP’s, doing WvW or killing mobs but not farming for gold. using real money to buy it…. And then still having a big change of not getting it.

Again, where is your proof of this?

Devata.6589:

If you really think it’s just a small part of the people I can ensure you you are wrong. But we both don’t have the numbers to proof it.

How can you assure me that? Eurogamer wrote an article on this very thing. The article used Assassin’s Creed for their statistical evidence. They said that the differences in opinions of very vocal forum posters and the thousands of other people playing were very different when they took surveys and polls. All I had to do to find this information was to do some very simple Google searches.

It is human nature for those not liking something to complain about it while those who are content or even like something will not say anything. And while I do not have actual numbers for this, I know from looking at the high number of people playing on many servers, that there are many more people playing the game than there are of those posting complaints about it in the forums. There are hundreds of posters in all of the forums commenting on all manner of subjects. There are thousands and thousands of people playing in game. They are not all posting on the forums, so yes, forum posters are in the minority. This isn’t just my guessing, there are many articles out there about internet forums compared to actual participants.

I just do not understand how you can claim these things with no proof. I would be more than happy to look into anything you had to prove what you say. I would even back you up if you had something solid to show me. Until then, I go with what I have read and that is that those who complain about anything on internet forums are usually in the minority because it is the nature of people with complaints to be vocal while those content are not.

It’s not a case of them lacking proof so much as a case of psychological projection. In trying to communicate their own personal feelings, they describe other people as having those thoughts and feelings when truly it’s just their personal opinion. This is a communication problem. They either don’t realize it or they are assuming that their opinion is the majority perhaps because their friends and immediate peers share the opinion and that’s all the empirical evidence they bothered to gather. Yes, it’s a misconception, but asking them to prove their claims isn’t going to teach them this lesson so much as frustrate them, which will in turn predispose them to disagree with you out of spite and create further rifts in communication.

Xenon.4537:

It’s not a case of them lacking proof so much as a case of psychological projection. In trying to communicate their own personal feelings, they describe other people as having those thoughts and feelings when truly it’s just their personal opinion. This is a communication problem. They either don’t realize it or they are assuming that their opinion is the majority perhaps because their friends and immediate peers share the opinion and that’s all the empirical evidence they bothered to gather. Yes, it’s a misconception, but asking them to prove their claims isn’t going to teach them this lesson so much as frustrate them, which will in turn predispose them to disagree with you out of spite and create further rifts in communication.

I totally agree and completely understand what you are saying. But I have tried your approach too. I have told them things like “Be careful in saying ‘most players’, ‘all players’ and ‘everyone’ because your opinion is just that your opinion and maybe that of those you play with. However, there are many of us that may feel differently.”

Usually after saying that they just attack and get defensive just as if you had asked them to prove it. You are not going to win either way.

The only reason I asked this guy to prove it is because he told me that I didn’t have any numbers to prove what I said. So I just posed the question back.

I really like that people are passionate about their positions. It is good to want what you want. I just don’t like the ‘everyone thinks like I do’ mentality. I hate being lumped into groups like that. Not that it will change this happening, but I always feel the need to let people know I do not share their opinions when I disagree.