See I was wondering why arenanet was against farming so much and then it clicked. They made this game for a casual base of players and not hardcore. If Arenanet allowed farming than players who spent more time farming would make more money from selling the rare items they gained, more money means that prices will rise greatly on everything across the board.
Now if i’m a casual player and I want to get an awesome weapon but I see that it’s 100g and I have only a small amount of playtime a week. It will take me much longer to get that weapon without spend a huge chunk of my play time doing something I hate such as farming.
So it’s really a double edge sword who would you like to cater to. Your casual base, or your hardcore fans.
I don’t think we should confuse farmers for being in any way hardcore. The Crown Pavilion is a prime example of this. The farmers are zerging around at the base doing what is pretty much as easy as it comes as long as you can see the AoE attacks through all the player effects, while the really challenge-oriented players are above running the Queen’s Gauntlet.
Farming can be casual, and when in zergs, pretty much is. I think the only reason it can be confused for being hardcore here is because it tends to have to be done for a ridiculously long time to get some things.
Let’s be honest here, if you can program something to do what you’re doing, is it really hardcore?
my solution:
equal rewards for everything… depending on time spent and difficulty (just like they attempted with the new dungeon rewards)
- farming 1h = average 5g
- exploring the map 1h = finding random spawned artifacts (new collectible), alternative use: vendor for 5g
- doing a variety of unique events 1h = average 5g
- playing WvW 1h = average 5g
- dungeons 1h = 5g
- jumping puzzles 1/2h = 2.5g
Problem with that is that it actually would work like this:
..and so on..
You can’t make “normal” play give the same rewards as farming, because farming is just doing normal things in what is known to be the most efficient manner.
What are farmers doing right now? They’re out in the world killing monsters. That’s the core of a lot of this game. It’s just that they’re killing a precise subset of monsters known to give most efficient profit, and doing it in an organized fashion.
Absolutely hate farming and the philosophy behind it. I don’t think a lot of players like farming they just like loot. To be honest a lot of MMO Players, particularly Progression Type players often have Self Esteem Issues and other Psychological Problems. Progression and obtaining rare gear or equipment gives them something to be proud of and allows them for once in their lives to be successful at something and rise above their peers. No longer are they that weird rejected kid with poor social skills, they are now powerful and 1337 and they believe that other players look at them enviously. Once this wears off they move to another game and rinse and repeat. It’s a sad reality really.
Additionally pretty much every person that is in to progression isn’t able to comprehend the big picture. Progession lovers can’t figure out that as they increase in power so does the rest of the PvEasy content. Thus with each update they are in the exact same place as they were before because the NPC’s have scaled accordingly. It’s really unfortunate that some people aren’t smart enough to understand this.
I’m fully against farming and feeding the progression loving monster. Play for fun, not for loot.
seems like someone has self-esteem issues . Many players don’t necessary have self-esteem issues, but are hoarders, aka they like to acquire stuff and keep it. It happens in real life too and has nothing to do with any issue. Grinding is not fun, but some of us do it because we want something in particular which might be super expensive and it would have months before achieving it with the rewards given from the story or the actual events. I bought recently 6 divinity runes that broke me completely. I did not do it because I have self-esteem issues, but rather because I like a balanced stat. At 13g per rune, the time required to achieve that without farming is quite high unless you play TP, which is still grinding but in a different manner, so learn the difference before accusing people .
This is a different issue entirely. Divinity Runes are arguably the best runes in the game, which is why the price is so high. You are grinding to make your character the most competitve character you can which isn’t a bad thing. Nobody truly wants their characters to be less than optimal. You aren’t a part of the group that I was referring to. Nobody can see you runes and you and you didn’t acquire those runes to acquire a sense of self worth.
In my opinion all of the Runes should be sold by vendors for super cheap. Almost to the point of where they’re giving them away. I think it’s a bad design to make a certain level of gear and accessories out of reach for many players. It limits build diversity and when people get stuck playing the exact same build with the exact same weapons and skills for 1,000+ hours they will naturally get bored. Variety really is the spice of life. It’s funny how the developers at ANet can clearly see this and then scratch their head wondering why people in the game are bored with it. I do like the rare skins and I think they are doing it right in their future update by allowing players with a Legendary to switch on the fly the weapon stats to any weapon set stat in game. However, I do not agree with harder to acquire than normal ascended gear though which will be a real killer to diversity. Everyone will be locked into their chosen builds. I don’t know why they stepped away from the winning formula they had in GW1. You could acquire any max stat weapon in like 20 minutes of play. It won’t be the best looking piece of equipement but at least you’re not at a distinct disadvantage when compared to your peers.
Actually, divinity runes are bad. They’re only for players who don’t know what stat they want, and they’re expensive because of that casual demand and the fact that they are impossible to craft, every single one on the trading post was looted and salvaged.
If you want to be as optimal as possible you either shell out the gold for scholar runes or you take the very budget friendly option of ruby orbs (and they’re not even bad, scholar runes only work in organised groups or if you can keep yourself above 90% HP).
Actually, divinity runes are bad. They’re only for players who don’t know what stat they want, and they’re expensive because of that casual demand and the fact that they are impossible to craft, every single one on the trading post was looted and salvaged.
If you want to be as optimal as possible you either shell out the gold for scholar runes or you take the very budget friendly option of ruby orbs (and they’re not even bad, scholar runes only work in organised groups or if you can keep yourself above 90% HP).
As a solo player i use them, alone in a dungeon you need mixed stats for different opponents.
I never fail to be amazed at the misunderstandings around farming. Farming, in an MMO/RPG is simply playing the game purposefully, i.e., with an objective in mind. I am farming mats in order to craft a set of gear, or farming karma in order to get a temple set for a fresh 80. These are all natural activities, not something foreign that someone brings to an MMO. And, farming is not a problem that needs to be wrestled with. Some people love it and farming is non-differentiated from their normal gameplay. Some people hate to farm and they tend to buy mats if they want to craft. But, the currency they would use to buy the mats was obtained by some farming-like activity, i.e., play with an objective in mind.
Playing purposefully or with an objective is not work. We often play sports in a way to play well and to improve our performance—it’s not work, it’s play. The same with games. Objectives, whether a legendary, or a hard to get skin, are a good and normal thing in gaming anywhere close to the MMO genre. No problem here really to address.
I never fail to be amazed at the misunderstandings around farming. Farming, in an MMO/RPG is simply playing the game purposefully, i.e., with an objective in mind. I am farming mats in order to craft a set of gear, or farming karma in order to get a temple set for a fresh 80. These are all natural activities, not something foreign that someone brings to an MMO. And, farming is not a problem that needs to be wrestled with. Some people love it and farming is non-differentiated from their normal gameplay. Some people hate to farm and they tend to buy mats if they want to craft. But, the currency they would use to buy the mats was obtained by some farming-like activity, i.e., play with an objective in mind.
Playing purposefully or with an objective is not work. We often play sports in a way to play well and to improve our performance—it’s not work, it’s play. The same with games. Objectives, whether a legendary, or a hard to get skin, are a good and normal thing in gaming anywhere close to the MMO genre. No problem here really to address.
I agree with you.
But there’s a difference between casual farming and hard core farming. It’s one thing to go out doing one event looking for specific drops that you need or want to sell. It’s another to insist that everyone be involved in how you’re farming. No one has a right to tell anyone else how to play, much less curse at them for messing up their farm.
A couple of months back, I was in Malchor’s Leap, and I needed a couple of events for my daily. So I did the event with the giant risen chickens.
And some guy whispers me and says: “Good going, moron. Hope you’re happy with your 1 silver for doing the event. I was farming chickens.”
I said to him. “Oh, sorry, I didn’t know. You should have said something.”
He never replied.
Farmers aren’t a problem. Idiots are a problem.
I never fail to be amazed at the misunderstandings around farming. Farming, in an MMO/RPG is simply playing the game purposefully, i.e., with an objective in mind. I am farming mats in order to craft a set of gear, or farming karma in order to get a temple set for a fresh 80. These are all natural activities, not something foreign that someone brings to an MMO. And, farming is not a problem that needs to be wrestled with. Some people love it and farming is non-differentiated from their normal gameplay. Some people hate to farm and they tend to buy mats if they want to craft. But, the currency they would use to buy the mats was obtained by some farming-like activity, i.e., play with an objective in mind.
Playing purposefully or with an objective is not work. We often play sports in a way to play well and to improve our performance—it’s not work, it’s play. The same with games. Objectives, whether a legendary, or a hard to get skin, are a good and normal thing in gaming anywhere close to the MMO genre. No problem here really to address.
Er…Your definition is way too loose for this discussion. There wouldn’t be any discussion if what you said was the case, you’re right. This is considering that operating under your definition, if my objective were to explore the world in a game, by exploring I’m actually “farming” the world. That may be accurate from your perspective, but this discussion is operating under the rough definition of yes, goal-oriented behavior, except the pursuit of the goal is heavily characterized by the specific task of repeatedly killing and looting mobs in various, or in some circumstances, very few, areas.
The problems with this behavior vary from perspective to perspective.
For the explorer types that may enjoy encountering others, it may make the world empty. If encountering others isn’t a concern, it simply makes them poorer than the farmers, which can make engaging with the player-driven economy basically a no-go. [In GW2’s more specific case, it can render certain content nearly incapable of completion, e.g. group events.]
For the casual or less-efficient minded, it may make the playerbase seem intolerable or unapproachable. If either of those, it may result in them quitting or, more optimistically, finding a laidback guild to hide away from those sorts of players.
For the hardcore, it may make actual challenging content hard to find. If that’s the case, they may either leave, move to PvP, or find some way to self-impose challenges.[It may be asserted this is where the farmer fits in, but if the farmer is just in it for the aesthetics and is fully maxed out in level and equipment stats, this argument falls fairly flat. There is hardly any major challenge to farming, at least for skillful play, the only real challenge it presents is to an individual’s dedication and devotion to their self-imposed goal.]
If we combine the casual and explorer types’ potential issues produced by the farming subset of the community, then we also arrive at the issue it can present to the newcomer. The newcomer may find the world’s transitional areas fairly empty, and the player economy too difficult to get into early on, and the efficient focus of many players to make the game as a whole seem a mixture of intimidating and tedious to the point of turning them away.
This isn’t necessarily ever certain to be the case, but it is a very viable possible byproduct of the farmers of the game. I mean, just look at what went down with GW1. That’s an even easier game to analyze the effects of farming behavior on the activity of the playerbase throughout the world. The basics being: most of it was empty excluding farming areas, with some concentrations to be found in some starting areas, with everyone else maybe being in the major capitals of each continent (except for Cantha because its capital was a crazy maze).
What’s really bizarre (to me anyway) is how that has almost perfectly carried over into GW2’s PvE scene, despite it being a proper MMO this time.
I never fail to be amazed at the misunderstandings around farming. Farming, in an MMO/RPG is simply playing the game purposefully, i.e., with an objective in mind. I am farming mats in order to craft a set of gear, or farming karma in order to get a temple set for a fresh 80. These are all natural activities, not something foreign that someone brings to an MMO. And, farming is not a problem that needs to be wrestled with. Some people love it and farming is non-differentiated from their normal gameplay. Some people hate to farm and they tend to buy mats if they want to craft. But, the currency they would use to buy the mats was obtained by some farming-like activity, i.e., play with an objective in mind.
Playing purposefully or with an objective is not work. We often play sports in a way to play well and to improve our performance—it’s not work, it’s play. The same with games. Objectives, whether a legendary, or a hard to get skin, are a good and normal thing in gaming anywhere close to the MMO genre. No problem here really to address.
I agree with you.
But there’s a difference between casual farming and hard core farming. It’s one thing to go out doing one event looking for specific drops that you need or want to sell. It’s another to insist that everyone be involved in how you’re farming. No one has a right to tell anyone else how to play, much less curse at them for messing up their farm.
A couple of months back, I was in Malchor’s Leap, and I needed a couple of events for my daily. So I did the event with the giant risen chickens.
And some guy whispers me and says: “Good going, moron. Hope you’re happy with your 1 silver for doing the event. I was farming chickens.”
I said to him. “Oh, sorry, I didn’t know. You should have said something.”
He never replied.
Farmers aren’t a problem. Idiots are a problem.
And, I have to agree with you. Organized “farming” a la what you mentioned, or failing events generally, or running an area in a particular champ order are a blight on gaming and give farming a bad name. I like your distinction; let’s agree to call them idiots and not farmers.
I never fail to be amazed at the misunderstandings around farming. Farming, in an MMO/RPG is simply playing the game purposefully, i.e., with an objective in mind. I am farming mats in order to craft a set of gear, or farming karma in order to get a temple set for a fresh 80. These are all natural activities, not something foreign that someone brings to an MMO. And, farming is not a problem that needs to be wrestled with. Some people love it and farming is non-differentiated from their normal gameplay. Some people hate to farm and they tend to buy mats if they want to craft. But, the currency they would use to buy the mats was obtained by some farming-like activity, i.e., play with an objective in mind.
Playing purposefully or with an objective is not work. We often play sports in a way to play well and to improve our performance—it’s not work, it’s play. The same with games. Objectives, whether a legendary, or a hard to get skin, are a good and normal thing in gaming anywhere close to the MMO genre. No problem here really to address.
I agree with you.
But there’s a difference between casual farming and hard core farming. It’s one thing to go out doing one event looking for specific drops that you need or want to sell. It’s another to insist that everyone be involved in how you’re farming. No one has a right to tell anyone else how to play, much less curse at them for messing up their farm.
A couple of months back, I was in Malchor’s Leap, and I needed a couple of events for my daily. So I did the event with the giant risen chickens.
And some guy whispers me and says: “Good going, moron. Hope you’re happy with your 1 silver for doing the event. I was farming chickens.”
I said to him. “Oh, sorry, I didn’t know. You should have said something.”
He never replied.
Farmers aren’t a problem. Idiots are a problem.
And, I have to agree with you. Organized “farming” a la what you mentioned, or failing events generally, or running an area in a particular champ order are a blight on gaming and give farming a bad name. I like your distinction; let’s agree to call them idiots and not farmers.
Well that’s the the thing. There are “idiots” in every aspect of game play. People call speed runners elitists but not all elistists are idiots. It’s probably only a small but very visible percentage of speed runners. Same with farmers.
We have a guy in our guild who farms constantly…and he’s a really really nice guy. Wouldn’t say boo to anyone.
The problem is, idiots are visiable, whatever they’re doing, and they give a bad name to everyone else doing it…pvp, farming, running dungeons, griefing the open world, whatever.
There’s one guy in LA who is a mesmer on my server, who waits by banners, so he can throw a portal under someone just as they try to click the banner, so they get teleported halfway across the map. It’s silly and childish.
I’ve learned to go up to the banner, wait for him to cast his teleport…stand there and wait for it to fade, then click the banner.
That doesn’t make all mesmers bad guys.
There’s one guy in LA who is a mesmer on my server, who waits by banners, so he can throw a portal under someone just as they try to click the banner, so they get teleported halfway across the map. It’s silly and childish.
I’ve learned to go up to the banner, wait for him to cast his teleport…stand there and wait for it to fade, then click the banner.
That doesn’t make all mesmers bad guys.
brb logging on mes
There’s one guy in LA who is a mesmer on my server, who waits by banners, so he can throw a portal under someone just as they try to click the banner, so they get teleported halfway across the map. It’s silly and childish.
I’ve learned to go up to the banner, wait for him to cast his teleport…stand there and wait for it to fade, then click the banner.
That doesn’t make all mesmers bad guys.
brb logging on mes
It’s relatively harmless in the scheme of things…but if that’s what floats your boat…shrugs.
Edit: I assume you’re joking anyway. lol
I don’t necessarily like farming… but I do enjoy knocking down champions with other players. It’s fun (for me). I’m very casual, so I’ll probably never really tire of the game the way others already have.
You really shouldn’t need to farm in this game though… you can make more gold off of the TP vs. actual farming if you’re clever. Buy with orders->?-> profit. The ? can be as simple as flipping it, but if you can find a method that not many are doing you’ll make far more gold.
For example when ecto’s were around 40s each, I was ordering up as many green items as I could get my hands on and then tossing them into the forge. They would generally cost me 1-1.5s each. It takes 16 greens to convert into 1 rare on average (20% chance). Then I would salvage the rares for ecto’s and forge the runes to try for superiors. It was a LOT of profit (no longer a very good method of making gold though with the current prices of ecto’s).
Right now T5 mats are dirt cheap. You might be able to figure out something to do with them to yield large profits.
Just be clever and use your brain, watch the changes in the market, do a little bit of simple math, and you won’t need to farm.
If you mean farming tokens or karma though… I got nothin’ lol
Some people legitimately enjoy farming though. They find it relaxing and rewarding. I am not one of those people though.
There’s one guy in LA who is a mesmer on my server, who waits by banners, so he can throw a portal under someone just as they try to click the banner, so they get teleported halfway across the map. It’s silly and childish.
I’ve learned to go up to the banner, wait for him to cast his teleport…stand there and wait for it to fade, then click the banner.
That doesn’t make all mesmers bad guys.
brb logging on mes
It’s relatively harmless in the scheme of things…but if that’s what floats your boat…shrugs.
Edit: I assume you’re joking anyway. lol
It’s considered griefing and can technically get you banned. If some one recorded him doing these things over and over and sent it in… it wouldn’t end well for him. I wouldn’t do it.
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
Farming wouldn’t be such an issue if there were large gold sinks in the game.
Tier 3 armor and commander icons are good examples. They could add cosmetic real estate items to spice up the home instance. Players could invite other players and have private parties with mini games. Or how about a big public 1v1 arena tournament hosted in a player’s home instance?
The possibilities are limitless.
The problem with this is what happens to the non farmers?
It is all very well to say that farming creates gold and as such the economy needs gold sinks.
This creates an even bigger chasm between people that play the game as a game and farmers who run the same content over and over like a rat in a maze.
You cannot create a system that rewards farmers and penalizes players
In regards to the main topic:
Personally, I don’t like farming.
I like WvW, dungeon runs among friends and patient, friendly pugs.
I’ll still be playing even when I get all the stuff I want due to the above.
But, if I have to farm like forever for something I like to have; let me ask you a simple question: Will you really stay with something that is hopeless?
They tire you and eventually drain you out. There are always other options to be happy and you would rather go for that.
Currently, I find GW2 worth supporting. They are making progress. They are changing ideas that fail. And they seem to be on the track of making lots of improvements. Some of these improvements may take time, but the changes lately, reflects that they are listening and doing their best to make this a game worth my, and those who agree with me, time.
PS. pweesh, don’t torment me with farming, the horror. the experience of not feeling the warmth on cold winters night, not feeling wanted. the loneliness, the sorrow, the pain, the cruelty. No LOVE. Drifts back to memories of no adult magazines…
progression type players have self-esteem and psychological problems? the kitten?
Maybe they like dedicating time and effort into a game and be rewarded with trinkets and trophies that they and others can appreciate? Isn’t that the whole point of an MMO?
It’s a sad situation that you actually believe your notion.
No, it’s sad that you think you need better stats as a reward for playing a lot. Guild Wars 1 never had that, and people were fine with that. The difference between your standard hack-‘n-grind MMO and Guild Wars is that if you want to be the better player, you have to have skill. Everyone gets the same tools, but how you use those tools defines the better player. Which, in my opinion is much preferable to being roflstomped just because you didn’t grind your new Gladiator set fast enough.
Guild Wars 2 is like chess: just because you get the same tools doesn’t mean each chess player is equal. But Kasparov doesn’t get 5 extra queens just because he played much more often.
Actually, divinity runes are bad. They’re only for players who don’t know what stat they want, and they’re expensive because of that casual demand and the fact that they are impossible to craft, every single one on the trading post was looted and salvaged.
If you want to be as optimal as possible you either shell out the gold for scholar runes or you take the very budget friendly option of ruby orbs (and they’re not even bad, scholar runes only work in organised groups or if you can keep yourself above 90% HP).
That’s your opinion. For elementalists, all-stats items are a very viable option, especially for World vs. World.
And boon duration runes are MUCH better than scholar runes or orbs…
You have a very uninformed view of the current state of MMO players.
He actually has some good points, even if he phrases some of them in a way that makes for something of a pot-kettle-black situation.
It’s blatantly obvious that there are a huge amount of ego issues tied into gaming. Not for everyone, of course, but at least for a very loud and obnoxious majority. Case in point: the frequent insults towards “carebears” and “casuals”. The decrying of people who help others get achievements in, for example, Sanctum Sprint, because helping means people did not “earn” their achievements “properly”. The ubiquitous abuse of women and other “lesser beings” that many get off on because it makes them feel superior. The attitude that running anything else can the current “meta” makes you a worthless leech and a “scrub”. The PvP-related attitudes of “when I win, it’s cause I’m just so awesome — when you win, it’s because you cheese and exploit and just have much more people on”. People screeching abuse at those who dare to ask questions or make any sort of mistake. People who contribute nothing to attempts at teamwork and tactics because listening to others is beneath them, but who, again, don’t hesitate to hurl abuse if he group dies/loses. The countless “im right ur wrong” insult-fests about “proper” gear and traits.
And so on and so forth … It’s all about showing how much “better” one supposedly is.
There do seem to be a lot of people in online gaming who do not so much enjoy doing certain content or having certain items as they enjoy spitting on those who do not do the same content or have the same level of gear. Which is why they want “their” stuff to be as exclusive as possible. Just having/doing something is not enough or enjoyable in and of itself, they must be able to lord it over others, too.
It’s a pretty kitten toxic attitude and it can really poison a game’s “community”.
Farming is by far the laziest end-game “content” a developer can create.
Amen. A shame Anet is falling into that tired old trap. One does have to keep in mind that they probably do not have the sort of reliably stable income that subscriptions would bring, but still.
It’s also a shame that so many people playing this genre seem unable to imagine MMOs as anything but an endless, gear-obsessed grindfest instead of, say, a whole new world to become immersed in.
(edited by Chadramar.8156)
It’s also a shame that so many people playing this genre seem unable to imagine MMOs as anything but an endless, gear-obsessed grindfest instead of, say, a whole new world to become immersed in.
Keep in mind that it’s the same people that copy their builds from the internet too. They’re not known for their creativity or out-of-the-box thinking.
It’s also a shame that so many people playing this genre seem unable to imagine MMOs as anything but an endless, gear-obsessed grindfest instead of, say, a whole new world to become immersed in.
Keep in mind that it’s the same people that copy their builds from the internet too. They’re not known for their creativity or out-of-the-box thinking.
are they really?
cause i copy buildz from da series of tubes, but am completely against ridiculous gear grind
are they really?
cause i copy buildz from da series of tubes, but am completely against ridiculous gear grind
You’re coming at it the wrong way. Copying builds doesn’t mean you’re not creative. If you’re not creative however, you have to copy builds. Also, if you’re not creative, you cannot think of something that’s not available yet.
It’s more of a character profile sketch, really. What I meant to say is that those that enjoy farming also copy farming builds and don’t like having to actively adjust their playstyle during or even inbetween fights.
As a solo player i use them, alone in a dungeon you need mixed stats for different opponents.
In PvE you run berserker unless you can’t dodge, are too lazy to learn encounters and want a crutch instead.
That’s your opinion. For elementalists, all-stats items are a very viable option, especially for World vs. World.
And boon duration runes are MUCH better than scholar runes or orbs…
I’m pretty sure competent elementalists use full berserker in dungeons too, with lightning hammer.
I’m not arguing about PvP or WvW since they’re not particularly my strong points, but even then, light armour classes have no problem using more berserker gear in guild groups since they’re going to be in the back line and not taking as many hits as the front.
For the first time i like the living story (the queen pavallion)
Because i like to see hit numbers popping all over the place and seeing so much mobs going down. It’s almost a sport, pull as many mobs possible and try to hit them all.
The reward is like winning the lotery hoping for that ultimate prize.
I can do this for 2 hours straight and still have fun doing it.
In PvE you run berserker unless you can’t dodge, are too lazy to learn encounters and want a crutch instead.
Or maybe keep your teammates alive that aren’t as skilled? My main issue with berserker is that it only works if the rest of your team can handle themselves. Being able to take a few hits while your teammembers dusts themselves off seems useful to me when things go…less than perfect.
I’m pretty sure competent elementalists use full berserker in dungeons too, with lightning hammer.
Elementalists have the worst armor and health of all professions, so bringing a little defense makes sense for them. Seeing as how their weaponbuilds are a mix of all playstyles (including conditions and party healing), it makes sense to go with all stats gears. You literally make use of everything all the time. Due to their attunement swapping, they can make up for that by equipping boon duration runes and a Sigil of Battle, which results in them having same attack power but a lot more utility.
I’m not arguing about PvP or WvW since they’re not particularly my strong points, but even then, light armour classes have no problem using more berserker gear in guild groups since they’re going to be in the back line and not taking as many hits as the front.
The thing is that in many ways, you’re right. A lot of the game seems to be designed around ‘dodge or die’ mechanics, so there’s little point in bringing any defensive gear. Not all professions are as fortunate as the warrior though, and some do a lot better if they bring just a little bit extra defense. However, it doesn’t always automatically equal ‘best for any situation under any circumstance’ as you make it out to be.
Or maybe keep your teammates alive that aren’t as skilled?
You can do that just fine in berserker. On my guard I can give regen, prot, blocks and condi removal despite eing full glass, it doesn’t exclude you from giving support just because you’re playing glass cannon.
My main issue with berserker is that it only works if the rest of your team can handle themselves
I run berserker in non-berserker groups just fine, and I would only consider myself a decent player, no special snowflake.
Being able to take a few hits while your teammembers dusts themselves off seems useful to me when things go…less than perfect.
And why should I be taking hits in the first place? I should be dodging. If I take aggro, I will dodge, use blurred frenzy or even distortion.
Elementalists have the worst armor and health of all professions, so bringing a little defense makes sense for them.
Learning to dodge is far better damage mitigation.
Seeing as how their weaponbuilds are a mix of all playstyles
…or use lightning hammer.
The thing is that in many ways, you’re right. A lot of the game seems to be designed around ‘dodge or die’ mechanics, so there’s little point in bringing any defensive gear. Not all professions are as fortunate as the warrior though, and some do a lot better if they bring just a little bit extra defense. However, it doesn’t always automatically equal ‘best for any situation under any circumstance’ as you make it out to be.
I was actually on about WvW guild raids there, if you’re camping back line in dungeons, you’re bad.
Everything in this convesation is literally an l2p issue, full berserker is still the best in PvE.
After reading the whole OP, arguing about Anet stance about farm etc…
Two words: Crown Pavillion.
/thread
I think quite a few people want to farm. What they don’t want to do is HAVE to farm. I would always have said that I was anti-farming. I like to just play the game because I’m having fun. But, with the addition of the Crown Pavilion, I love spending time in there, running round in a zerg and getting some shinies for it.
I still go and play the open world stuff and I still enjoy it. In fact, it’s a bit more fun now because I have a totally separate place to farm, I can just play the open world for what it is, without feeling that I SHOULD be getting any more out of it than my own enjoyment. If I feel I need a bit of a boost to the gold I’m bringing in, I know I can always go and get some at the CP, and because I know it’s there, I don’t feel I HAVE to use it. The problem is that with all the recent nerfs, there now isn’t any place people are secure knowing will stick around should they need to do a little farming.
Imo, ANet should keep the Crown Pavilion. I haven’t noticed the world being any less populated than it was before the CP turned up, and I think it’ll stay that way. This way people get to have their cake and eat it too, and most people aren’t actually all that affected by it.
(edited by CrossedHorse.4261)
The solution is two fold…
1. They should focus on content that is gripping. They should fire the psychologists they have working for them and higher story tellers who know how to write a compelling story.
2. They should focus on designing content that is worth doing for the experience and will reward players upon completion.
This wouldn’t work. In an MMO you want your players to continue playing your content. Story’s only good for one playthrough, after that the player knows what’s going to happen, and it becomes a grind to do it multiple times on different characters.
The same goes for content that’s worth doing for the experience. Content can be fun the first few times you’re playing it, but after that it gets stale.
Those 2 solutions work in a single player game, in which a player will go through the game once, maybe twice, and then move on to the next game.
An MMO is dead if players don’t have an incentive to keep playing. Unfortunately, it’s not physically possible to keep pumping out quality content fast enough to keep players interested in your game in the longterm without resorting to strategies that involve grinding/farming stuff. This is why MMO’s are grindy, and promote the act of farming mobs.
Well, personally I don’t farm. I’m fine with doing whatever I feel like doing in GW2, and farming is never something I feel like doing… so yeah.
How about we take a realistic approach. I see a lot of people in this thread talking about how the game is made for grinding. So what do you want exactly? You can easily do just about anything in the game with little relative effort.
It’s simply impossible for them to churn out non-grindy content at a fast enough pace to satisfy everyone. It can’t be done. Character models, animations, environments, effects, quests, missions, story/lore, etc all take a lot of time to develop. Coding an item to have a low drop rate doesn’t. People want zero grind, but they don’t realize that it is essential to fill in the spaces. At least in this game, the low drop rate/expensive gear is only cosmetically different from anything else.
You should be happy that you don’t need a Twilight to run Fractals. You should be happy you can do WvW with a pearl berserker’s greatsword instead of grinding for a “best in slot.” You should be happy you can hop right in to spvp 5 minutes after character creation and never worry about getting “pvp gear” to compete with others.
This game is only as grindy as you make it.
@Milennin
The part you quoted was a niche solution to a niche problem. The problem being that people, conditioned to farm since it was the quickest way to get the loot they want, would power level their way up to 80 and start farming. These people would often skip cut scenes even on their first playthrough.
To elaborate a bit more on what I said there. Take dynamic events as the example. Let’s go with defendign a camp against waves of mobs.
As it is now, you get the loot from the mobs as you kill them and then you get the reward for completing it. Instead, you should get nothing from the mobs as you kill them but instead you get it all at once upon event completion.
Now let’s say, you have to destroy something and waves of mobs just keep on coming to stop you. They don’t stop until that item is destroyed. If you can get loot from those mobs as you kill them, then why finish when the bulk of the reward comes from the mobs and you get very little for actually completing? Especially if the mobs have a high spawn rate.
So they would just farm it for a while then complete it for the reward and then repeat.
Well, you can put a spawn cap on the number of mobs. After X amount of waves, they stop coming and all there is left to do is to destroy the item and complete the event for the rewards.
Then you put a timer on the events so you can’t start it back up right away. People will be forced to move around.
I also remember someone saying about putting the diminishing returns on the events. As well as reducing the drop rate on events that are more heavily farmed. People would then seek out the events with the least amount of people and they would also have to seek out a different event each time or else suffer the effects of DR.
Make the drops a person gets tied into their level and not the level of the area they are in, then you will certainly see people in the other, now empty, maps.
Which brings me to what I said about story. If the events were more elaborate and interesting, I believe people would find the game more interesting.
Events would get completed and people would be happy to do it.
With the server I’m on, the temples are mostly (and sometimes completely) contested. Nobody cares to do them. All because ANet designed a game, like all the others, that make mindlessly farming mobs for an hour more profitable than actually completing these events in the same amount of time.
I like to explore. I like to do dungeons. I like guild missions. I came to like jumping puzzles, even.
And every now and then, especially after a long work day, I like to farm. I haven’t even a specific goal. Simply following a commander, enjoying to be in a huge like-minded crowd, working together to eradicate Evil, can be quite enjoyable.
The world isn’t divided in farmers and non-farmers, as it is not divided in car drivers and pedestrians. Nearly everyone drives sometimes a car (except me, haven’t made my driver’s license, though I am beyond 50 now), and nearly everyone is sometimes a pedestrian.
The question for me is: Must I farm? In my MMORPG before GW2 I had to (it was a Korean grinder). Here, I don’t have to – except for legendaries, which I don’t even like. The foot tracks always remind me of fluid digestion end products.
All in all ArenaNet has done a nice job now to make farming worthwile again but not overdominating.
I admit, though, that it should not be profitable to stretch out a dynamic event or let it even fail. They should redesign those events.
In PvE you run berserker unless you can’t dodge, are too lazy to learn encounters and want a crutch instead.
… thanks for illustrating my point. “There is only one way to play this game, and it’s my way, and if you don’t do it my way you are bad.”
What if you don’t want or like to be a glass cannon? Whatever happened to “play the way you want”? Whatever happened to the claim that getting rid of the oh-so-terrible-and-restrictive trinity would make for a richer, deeper and more diverse game? Instead of three distinctive and equally important roles, all we have now is glass cannon “zerker” or go home?
It’s a sad joke.
In PvE you run berserker unless you can’t dodge, are too lazy to learn encounters and want a crutch instead.
… thanks for illustrating my point. “There is only one way to play this game, and it’s my way, and if you don’t do it my way you are bad.”
What if you don’t want or like to be a glass cannon? Whatever happened to “play the way you want”? Whatever happened to the claim that getting rid of the oh-so-terrible-and-restrictive trinity would make for a richer, deeper and more diverse game? Instead of three distinctive and equally important roles, all we have now is glass cannon “zerker” or go home?
It’s a sad joke.
Deep, rich diverse gameplay went out the window when they failed to replace the trinity. It’s like they thought the trinity was there just for the heck of it. In fact it served a very important role in bringing depth to the combat and making a multitude of build varieties possible. Without some sort of replacement we are stuck with MOAR DPS until it dies. Anyone that is not in zerker (rabid/carrion for condition builds) gear just needs to learn to play better until they can use zerker (rabid/carrion) gear.
This makes grinding the only real solution to keep people interested in the game because the normal forms of progression through raids and learning encounters are trivialized by being able to dodge and zerker gear.
If you don’t do a little bit of farming every now and then, your endgame is constantly crippled by bad finances. You can still have fun in the game without having money but you’ll still feel a ways when you see everyone else running around with shiny things and you’re still in temple skins.
It’s a necessary evil of any game. I just don’t get why anet take so many steps to discourage farming, then put a repeating festival onto their roster that seems to be the crown farmvillion. I have no idea whether they are for or against it anymore XD
If you don’t do a little bit of farming every now and then, your endgame is constantly crippled by bad finances. You can still have fun in the game without having money but you’ll still feel a ways when you see everyone else running around with shiny things and you’re still in temple skins.
It’s a necessary evil of any game. I just don’t get why anet take so many steps to discourage farming, then put a repeating festival onto their roster that seems to be the crown farmvillion. I have no idea whether they are for or against it anymore XD
i still running around with temple gear… even though i earned just over 1000 gold in the last 2 months.. lol… people need to know to control their spending!
Absolutely hate farming and the philosophy behind it. I don’t think a lot of players like farming they just like loot. To be honest a lot of MMO Players, particularly Progression Type players often have Self Esteem Issues and other Psychological Problems. Progression and obtaining rare gear or equipment gives them something to be proud of and allows them for once in their lives to be successful at something and rise above their peers. No longer are they that weird rejected kid with poor social skills, they are now powerful and 1337 and they believe that other players look at them enviously. Once this wears off they move to another game and rinse and repeat. It’s a sad reality really.
Holy kitten I blinked and suddenly I’m back in 2003.
All types of people make up all types of gamers. These degrading stereotypes that perverted the gaming community have really died out over the past decade. Let’s try and not be a horrible person by encouraging them.
Also I didn’t include it in your quote but you mentioned people don’t like to farm. Stop speaking for other people. I don’t mind farming, and I actually enjoy group farming (like the GW1 titan gemstone duo farm for those of you who played Nightfall).
Why is it that when a group of people are doing something in a game that someone don’t enjoy personally, it clearly must be stopped? The game caters to different styles. Why not more?
@Milennin
(long post cut-off to not take up space)
Which brings me to what I said about story. If the events were more elaborate and interesting, I believe people would find the game more interesting.
Events would get completed and people would be happy to do it.
I don’t agree, though. No matter what you do, people will find ways to grind and farm content anyway. Only if you’d take away literally any possibility of farming content people will stop, but then we get back to the part where an MMO needs people to play it in order to survive.
No matter how fun you make an event or whatever, people will still farm it to dead without caring for it a single bit. I thought the Molten Weapons Facility was really good and fun content, but 2 days after its release, people had already figured out the best ways to beat it as fast and easy as possible, even if it meant skipping the fun stuff (like, standing in the corner of the weapon testing room, instead of dodging the fires).
A game that’s merely played for fun doesn’t survive in the longterm, only a game that gives people the incentive to farm content over again does.
Absolutely hate farming and the philosophy behind it. I don’t think a lot of players like farming they just like loot. To be honest a lot of MMO Players, particularly Progression Type players often have Self Esteem Issues and other Psychological Problems. Progression and obtaining rare gear or equipment gives them something to be proud of and allows them for once in their lives to be successful at something and rise above their peers. No longer are they that weird rejected kid with poor social skills, they are now powerful and 1337 and they believe that other players look at them enviously. Once this wears off they move to another game and rinse and repeat. It’s a sad reality really.
Additionally pretty much every person that is in to progression isn’t able to comprehend the big picture. Progession lovers can’t figure out that as they increase in power so does the rest of the PvEasy content. Thus with each update they are in the exact same place as they were before because the NPC’s have scaled accordingly. It’s really unfortunate that some people aren’t smart enough to understand this.
I’m fully against farming and feeding the progression loving monster. Play for fun, not for loot.
seems like someone has self-esteem issues . Many players don’t necessary have self-esteem issues, but are hoarders, aka they like to acquire stuff and keep it. It happens in real life too and has nothing to do with any issue. Grinding is not fun, but some of us do it because we want something in particular which might be super expensive and it would have months before achieving it with the rewards given from the story or the actual events. I bought recently 6 divinity runes that broke me completely. I did not do it because I have self-esteem issues, but rather because I like a balanced stat. At 13g per rune, the time required to achieve that without farming is quite high unless you play TP, which is still grinding but in a different manner, so learn the difference before accusing people .
This is a different issue entirely. Divinity Runes are arguably the best runes in the game, which is why the price is so high. You are grinding to make your character the most competitve character you can which isn’t a bad thing. Nobody truly wants their characters to be less than optimal. You aren’t a part of the group that I was referring to. Nobody can see you runes and you and you didn’t acquire those runes to acquire a sense of self worth.
In my opinion all of the Runes should be sold by vendors for super cheap. Almost to the point of where they’re giving them away. I think it’s a bad design to make a certain level of gear and accessories out of reach for many players. It limits build diversity and when people get stuck playing the exact same build with the exact same weapons and skills for 1,000+ hours they will naturally get bored. Variety really is the spice of life. It’s funny how the developers at ANet can clearly see this and then scratch their head wondering why people in the game are bored with it. I do like the rare skins and I think they are doing it right in their future update by allowing players with a Legendary to switch on the fly the weapon stats to any weapon set stat in game. However, I do not agree with harder to acquire than normal ascended gear though which will be a real killer to diversity. Everyone will be locked into their chosen builds. I don’t know why they stepped away from the winning formula they had in GW1. You could acquire any max stat weapon in like 20 minutes of play. It won’t be the best looking piece of equipement but at least you’re not at a distinct disadvantage when compared to your peers.
Actually, divinity runes are bad. They’re only for players who don’t know what stat they want, and they’re expensive because of that casual demand and the fact that they are impossible to craft, every single one on the trading post was looted and salvaged.
If you want to be as optimal as possible you either shell out the gold for scholar runes or you take the very budget friendly option of ruby orbs (and they’re not even bad, scholar runes only work in organised groups or if you can keep yourself above 90% HP).
I disagree. If you play engineer you’d know that we can switch roles in a matter of seconds because of our kits, therefore all the stats are useful for us. Many people don’t use them, but that doesn’t make them bad.
Because you need healing power gear to heal players? You physically can’t heal players in berserker?
I don’t like or dislike farming. However, if I want to buy some sweet and spicey butternut squash soup to help me in my play, well, I need a couple gold to buy 5. If I need a full set of exotics (that I LIKE) to run dungeons or FotM or be able to complete maps in Orr, well, there’s more gold. If I want ascended trinkets… more gold. Crafting? Honestly, that’s the biggest gold sink there is. How do you get all this gold? I am a GW2 addict, but am forced to play on my work and school schedule. I don’t want to have to go do hearts and DE for 3 years to play the stuff I want (dungeons, etc). So… guess what I do? I do the stuff I like that pays, like taking temples in Orr and running with the zerg in the pavilion, or doing the hot air balloon stuff, or meta world bosses. It … is… ALL … farming. Until everyone starts and stays exactly the same from day 1 to day 600, we are all farming something. Have you done a dungeon path more than once? Have you done everything in game ONE TIME only? If the answer is no, then you, my friend, are farming something.
I want to add that everyone here is entitled to have an opinion. However, I do not need to play like you, and you do not need to play like me. Deal with it.
Because you need healing power gear to heal players? You physically can’t heal players in berserker?
Not everyone is a berserker fan.
Deep, rich diverse gameplay went out the window when they failed to replace the trinity. It’s like they thought the trinity was there just for the heck of it. In fact it served a very important role in bringing depth to the combat and making a multitude of build varieties possible.
I hear you. Support and control were supposed to be the superior replacements for healing and tanking, but if both can be rendered superfluous simply by “l2dodge and go zerk lol” then they are an abject failure. In trinity-MMOs, the need for tanks and healers, as well as the need for interrupts and CC, does not diminish with increasingly difficult content — on the contrary. Here, one can be a “leet” glass cannon AND have the satisfaction of accusing others of being “bad and selfish” when they run anything else. Sometimes it feels like this brings out the worst in trinity-DPS-players who relish no longer needing any “dumb” tanks or healers.
… yeah I was a tank who loved that role and the interplay between myself and the other parts of the trinity. I miss that something fierce. Even if this game will never have the old trinity, it could really, REALLY use a little more versatility in PvE. It may be possible to do most content with most group compositions, but I’d like non-glass-cannon roles to have an actual purpose beyond “training wheel and crutch for ‘bad’ players”.
Players don’t want to farm… Players wants rewards and progress.
Since there are none, they invent one (like Legendaries as one example) and farm for it.
ANet is so deep into pulling us to the gem market (who can blame them, it’s their business) that everything new must be VERY expensive and on extreme random chances… basically they are pushing players to it.
So yeah, this game was actually made for grinding, and it subsists on more and more grinding. Don’t like grinding? pay money for “money”.
Bingo. 100% spot on!
Because you need healing power gear to heal players? You physically can’t heal players in berserker?
Not everyone is a berserker fan.
Berserker is just an example, you can switch kits and give support, control or whatever regardless of your gear so I don’t see why you used that as an argument in support of celestial when it’s plain bad.
I hear you. Support and control were supposed to be the superior replacements for healing and tanking, but if both can be rendered superfluous simply by “l2dodge and go zerk lol” then they are an abject failure. In trinity-MMOs, the need for tanks and healers, as well as the need for interrupts and CC, does not diminish with increasingly difficult content — on the contrary. Here, one can be a “leet” glass cannon AND have the satisfaction of accusing others of being “bad and selfish” when they run anything else. Sometimes it feels like this brings out the worst in trinity-DPS-players who relish no longer needing any “dumb” tanks or healers.
… yeah I was a tank who loved that role and the interplay between myself and the other parts of the trinity. I miss that something fierce. Even if this game will never have the old trinity, it could really, REALLY use a little more versatility in PvE. It may be possible to do most content with most group compositions, but I’d like non-glass-cannon roles to have an actual purpose beyond “training wheel and crutch for ‘bad’ players”.
tl;dr you’re bitter because you can’t be a tank so now you’re getting mad at the gw2 PvE meta.
I always find it funny when people complaining about berserker users use words like “leet” to describe us even though we never use it ourselves, or even think it applies to us.
(edited by colesy.8490)
oh boy, not another zerk or gfto thread…. keep it on the farming problem… let the zerkids have their fest on the other 983744 threads for it.
Back to topic, I was amazed by the fact that people let Jornag’s Claw event start and NOBODY joined it cause they were all too bussy riding the Champion killin train. Amazing… Those crystals stood up for like 10-15 minutes untouched. Nobody wanted to kill the dragon… Hardcore Farming IS becoming a serious problem caused not by a patch that modified some loot but by the very core design of the (not end) late game.
See, what they should have done is add a named boss to each zone. That boss has a chance to drop a skin. Then add another skin to dungeon end bosses.
Then made DE’s important by adding the boxes to those.
The Champs should have received an update to loot, but not to where it is….or make them scale. Defeating champs should take as much time as it takes to successfully complete a DE. Rewards should be similar. If Jormags Breath dropped more frequently, or killing the claw provided you with a mat you can only get from it, people would not forget to do The Claw of Jormag fight.
Players don’t want to farm… Players wants rewards and progress.
Since there are none, they invent one (like Legendaries as one example) and farm for it.
I, too, think this is an accurate assessment of player behavior. Players will gravitate towards what has the highest payout, and thus the fastest progress, towards goals such as a legendary (which is really just a measure of money).
Anet very carefully controls their economy in-game so that players in general can’t accumulate too much money overall. Not being able to make money in-game overmuch means more money spent on gems to buy gold to get what they want. This is the goal and is why farms are nerfed each time one comes to light. Working as intended. It’s also why there are systems like DR in place – to control the amount of gold coming into player hands. Of course, there’s always a party line, usually something about making the game more fun or balancing things, but the bottom line is control and gem/gold sales.
For me, the main issue is what do you do with people who don’t want to farm?
I think they’ve already made it crystal clear what those players are supposed to do.
And not Today, No they made it clear on the 6th when they made all of the Temples a lot more difficult and gimmicky. Look at this thread for instance: /Temple-of-Balthazar-event-impossible/first …still no reply about the actual subject line of the thread, not even so much as a hint as to whether it’s even intended behavior or not. ….Same goes for all the Ember farm threads too, not one single comment on whether they anticipated it spitting out so many really low difficulty Champions so rapidly. And they didn’t change that at all, no all they did in this patch was make the Chan escort take 30 minutes to restart, IE: it can still be farmed easily. Meanwhile those of us wanting to do the event public-style (non-farming) have no “Window” in which to set it up anymore.
They did the same thing to Dungeons… Casual non-farming players were complaining about Ascalon Catacombs and no one wanting to beat Kohler either. What did Anet do? They buffed Kohler even more, & made Detha’s path the LONGEST/WORST path. And now Path3 which used to be the one every new player complained about the most, is considered the “speed runnable” path that gets farmed most b/c it’s so “Zerk’able”.
.
So…. just like in the good old days of Gw1, I completely Disagree with Escool here (actually feels good to say that, I was beginning to think we were becoming the same person there!) …Anet is not surprised at all by this rampant farming culture, infact I think this was one of the their main Demographics for the game they intended to keep around to make the game look “populated” for everyone else who only played part time.
The problem is… like tank full of Barracudas, they’re pretty much devouring all the other Tropical fish at a record pace and that’s why no one else even has TIME to do D.E.’s anymore with all the other crap going on in the game they have to keep up with, And the LAST thing they have time for now is to learn the harder ones that gadually got made a lot more difficult for no additional reward… (or in the case of dungeons, had their rewards completely nerfed b/c the Diminishing Return is now account bound instead of character bound).
So yeah, there were still some players who climbed the mountains simply b/c they were there. …suffering constant set backs just to learn how to overcome that challenge while getting less and less from doing it. Anet meanwhile didn’t simply forget about those players…. we wish they would have simply forgotten us and left this content ALONE. …No they messed with it to make it even more punishing to anyone still trying to learn it. Almost as if to ensure that we’d be the dying Breed who’d just give up and stop posting about all the creative things they could do instead to make Events actually FUN again.
Nothing else would explain why they’ve punished us this much, while rewarding Gold Farmers so much. Despite what they say, it’s clear they WANT US GONE. Feels bad man :\
(edited by ilr.9675)
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