Guild Wars 2

I keep reading threads on “is this tanking build viable?” , “is this healing build viable?”

I run dungeons and when I see someone try to tank, after a few seconds the boss either locks on someone else or rofl stomps the would-be tank. After all of your cooldowns are wasted staying alive, are you really helping the group?

I know people can try to steer themselves in the direction of tank/heals, but do true tanks and healers exist? Do you think that by being a complete support build / heal build you are 100% helping the group? Shouldn’t you have some offensive capabilities and not just focus on your support cooldowns?

I grow weary of people saying they are a tank, because this game isn’t meant to have tanks.
I also understand that some fights prefer ranged, but when someone tells me to go ranged all the time on my thief, I get annoyed…the game isn’t meant for all ranged weapons. Shouldn’t I be able to run the dungeon the way I want, if I play it correctly?

the only one that can actually be sorta helpful is the healer role, but then even the healer would be hurting the party, because thats 1 less person taking the bosses health down. people tanking and healing are bootable offenses imo, run with a guild for this and dont waste my time.

No such thing as healing power/toughness/vitality gear, so there probably isn’t a massive DPS difference between a cleric that stays in all the time, and a berserker that assuming he isn’t faceplanted all the time, still has to dodge every auto-attack.

A berserker staying at range kind of defeats the purpose of it; Why would you purposely neuter your DPS and wear an equipment set thats meant to boost it?

Judging by the way the dungeons play & all the other changes from the manifesto, it’s only a matter of time, then gearscore, then flying mounts!

Are people still doing this? I thought this was put to rest months ago when the game launched. There is no holy trinity in the game.

Sure, a heavily armored guardian might be able to hold off some damage so that a light armored elementalist can escape to heal themselves…but it isn’t the same. You can’t always draw the aggro and you can’t always heal effectively.

Whatever happened to the idea that everyone was responsible for themselves?

Is it a problem that there isn’t a holy trinity, or that there should be.

I once posted that there could be ‘creative’ ways of making classes ‘tank’ and others heal, without having to disrupt the ’style of the game play.

Of course, noone wants to hear it since this game is supposedly ‘holy trinity’ free.

All I recall from the ‘manifesto’ is that ‘all classes’ could fullfill ‘any’ role, so that you didn’t have to stand around looking for a tank and healer.

What I got was a DPS spam fest style of play. rolls eyes With my class being the weakest PvE DPS classes and a psuedo-mediocre support role, yet somehow I excell in PvP.

Go figure.

Just because there is no Holy Trinity doesn’t mean that specialized roles are useless.

As for tanking… have you ever been in Twilight Arbour Explorable? When I go in there with my Guardian I pretty much take all the attacks from the Vine and the Spider boss, and if I go down, and don’t rally quickly, there is a very real risk of a wipe that otherwise did not exist.

Also, as a Hammer/Staff Guardian using Altruistic Healing (poorly named trait, as it encourages you to be greedy with your buffs), there is a great amount of damage mitigation provided, especially when I am able to keep the attention of enemies, or body-block projectiles that are heading to my allies.

Note: my Guardian build also puts out a lot of damage, so its not like I am just a one dimensional Guardian.

my guild group and i had been doing AC for a while, and we had gotten pretty good at it, then during one of the runs we had a missing fifth, so we took a random pug who was an ele and claimed to be a “healer ele”, who focused only on just…using water ele spells.

that run felt like it was just a 4 man run, me and another guildie kept whispering each other, and we both agreed that we did not felt at all that the “healer ele” contributed much to the team, if at all.

its an anectodal experience and thus your mileage can vary, but thats how i felt having a “healer” in our team, and would rather have a random balanced or different

ProphetSword.5427:

Whatever happened to the idea that everyone was responsible for themselves?

No one seems to like it, at least everybody I’ve talked to seems to think the novelty has worn off and what with fotm grind being the new thing that is a “must have”, they may as well add the trinity, at least dungeons wouldn’t be a repair fest cus some people can’t play (no finger pointing, a mere fact that some pug runs are hellish, it’s hard to stay alive when 3 other players are dead at your feet because they didn’t move their kittens in time!).

Guild wars didn’t have threat values like traditional MMOs either, but it still had tanks and healers. Its the same deal here; You may not have a taunt, or a 500% threat modifier on your attacks, but you can still force enemies to attack you if you do it properly.

And if you can’t engage first to get everything focused on you, you can still stop enemies from hurting your party members. Cripple, immobilize, reflect, zone lock, chill, blind … there are plenty of ways.

My mesmer is very tanking….

My clones are just more targets for the boss to focus on…. My well timed dodges create more clones…. I have several ways to become invunerable…

It might not be the same idea of Tank = Damage Sponge…. but I can do a very similar job…. It’s called control…

As for healing My shout warrior can heal A LOT and control conditions… the healing is but one side of the support role he plays.

So you can have a tank in this game… just don’t have true damage sponges…

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

Servanin.5021:

Guild wars didn’t have threat values like traditional MMOs either, but it still had tanks and healers. Its the same deal here; You may not have a taunt, or a 500% threat modifier on your attacks, but you can still force enemies to attack you if you do it properly.

DotA from back on Warcraft III and its imitators, are also games that don’t have threat mechanics (since you are playing against actual players, and you cannot control their minds with a press of a button), but tanky builds are still very important in those games.

AW Lore.5682:

my guild group and i had been doing AC for a while, and we had gotten pretty good at it, then during one of the runs we had a missing fifth, so we took a random pug who was an ele and claimed to be a “healer ele”, who focused only on just…using water ele spells.

that run felt like it was just a 4 man run, me and another guildie kept whispering each other, and we both agreed that we did not felt at all that the “healer ele” contributed much to the team, if at all.

its an anectodal experience and thus your mileage can vary, but thats how i felt having a “healer” in our team, and would rather have a random balanced or different

Not much different than most trinity-based MMOs where it is quite common to hear the DPSers maximizing their own importance while diminishing the other roles.

People make support roles because dead dps means no dps.

Don’t know how much time I spend in runs rezing glass cannon pure dps people…. warriors and thieves are especially known for this crap….. ya sure they hit for alot but as soon as they miss a dodge and get hit its GG now the group is kittened trying to res you.

While tank and heal builds aren’t used in the traditional sense they are still needed to support the group, doesn’t mean they can’t dps at the same time.

cesmode.4257:

I keep reading threads on “is this tanking build viable?” , “is this healing build viable?”

I run dungeons and when I see someone try to tank, after a few seconds the boss either locks on someone else or rofl stomps the would-be tank. After all of your cooldowns are wasted staying alive, are you really helping the group?

I know people can try to steer themselves in the direction of tank/heals, but do true tanks and healers exist? Do you think that by being a complete support build / heal build you are 100% helping the group? Shouldn’t you have some offensive capabilities and not just focus on your support cooldowns?

I grow weary of people saying they are a tank, because this game isn’t meant to have tanks.
I also understand that some fights prefer ranged, but when someone tells me to go ranged all the time on my thief, I get annoyed…the game isn’t meant for all ranged weapons. Shouldn’t I be able to run the dungeon the way I want, if I play it correctly?

I 100% Agree and feel your pain man!
I’m getting annoyed with people who want to main tank or main heal in GW2
They dont understand that this combat system has no Holy Trinity!

GW2 Combat system is based off:
Damage/Control/Support.

Every Class must learn to deal “Damage” while mentaining “Control” and being able to “Support” themselves to be self-effeciant.

In a 5 man dungoen, everyone must coordinate “Control & Support” while contributing in “Damage” to successfully overcome a challenging Dungoen.

There are NO BABYSITTERS to Heal you, or Take Hits for you. You have to be on the MOVE+DODGE and contribute in Control/Support and Damage!!

Dont be upset about it though. It’s always best to help and teach new players what you know so they can improve with their skills so you can run better with them for future contents. Dont expect people to know GW2’s combat mechanics. people are used to MMORPGs with Tank/Healer/DPS roles so that is all what they can think about..

This style of combat system is new to the genre.

karma.8763:

the only one that can actually be sorta helpful is the healer role, but then even the healer would be hurting the party, because thats 1 less person taking the bosses health down. people tanking and healing are bootable offenses imo, run with a guild for this and dont waste my time.

My thoughts exactly. I love having a support guardian in there or something, but its less dps…

Surbrus.6942:

Just because there is no Holy Trinity doesn’t mean that specialized roles are useless.

As for tanking… have you ever been in Twilight Arbour Explorable? When I go in there with my Guardian I pretty much take all the attacks from the Vine and the Spider boss, and if I go down, and don’t rally quickly, there is a very real risk of a wipe that otherwise did not exist.

Also, as a Hammer/Staff Guardian using Altruistic Healing (poorly named trait, as it encourages you to be greedy with your buffs), there is a great amount of damage mitigation provided, especially when I am able to keep the attention of enemies, or body-block projectiles that are heading to my allies.

Note: my Guardian build also puts out a lot of damage, so its not like I am just a one dimensional Guardian.

Sorry, but I highly doubt that you take most of the hits from the spider boss. Aggro management is nearly impossible in this game since there arent any aggro modifiers or aggro specific abilities. Not to mention, I dont think its a matter of highest dps = aggro. I remember an Anet post saying the system takes into account dps, armor type, and range.

The spider boss moves all over. Ive never seen someone keep him still for more than a few seconds.

AW Lore.5682:

my guild group and i had been doing AC for a while, and we had gotten pretty good at it, then during one of the runs we had a missing fifth, so we took a random pug who was an ele and claimed to be a “healer ele”, who focused only on just…using water ele spells.

that run felt like it was just a 4 man run, me and another guildie kept whispering each other, and we both agreed that we did not felt at all that the “healer ele” contributed much to the team, if at all.

its an anectodal experience and thus your mileage can vary, but thats how i felt having a “healer” in our team, and would rather have a random balanced or different

I think its OK that he uses water spells to throw out SOME dps and heal simultaneously. It is how I plan to play my ele when I level it. But builds where you purely try to do ONE thing like tank or heal..sometimes are a detriment unless you are dpsing at the same time.

If people disapprove of an elementalist running with water attunment, why is it in the game?

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

There are NO BABYSITTERS to Heal you, or Take Hits for you. You have to be on the MOVE+DODGE and contribute in Control/Support and Damage!!

I always found it pretty hilarious when guildies would say that the Vine boss in TA was a joke. The moment I screw up and my Guardian goes down for the count, or I need to step out of combat for some out of combat healing (due to all defensive cool downs being off), all the glass cannons in the party instantly die mere moments after I do.

To be fair, after seeing that happen a couple times, my party would listen to me whenever I said I was in trouble in that fight, and the spider boss.

Also, without body-blocking projectiles heading for our ranged glass cannons, some sections of the dungeons can also be a bit more of a pain rallying party members more often than should be required.

cesmode.4257:

Sorry, but I highly doubt that you take most of the hits from the spider boss. Aggro management is nearly impossible in this game since there arent any aggro modifiers or aggro specific abilities. Not to mention, I dont think its a matter of highest dps = aggro. I remember an Anet post saying the system takes into account dps, armor type, and range.

The spider boss moves all over. Ive never seen someone keep him still for more than a few seconds.

Many bosses and other dungeon enemies prioritize Guardians, or people wielding shields. The only time that Spider boss was not directing all attacks my way (when on my Guardian) was when a Shield wielding warrior guildie was in the party, then the boss seemed to randomly switch between us.

This is very evident when you position yourself on the opposite side of the Spider that your party is attacking from. They don’t receive any of the AoE attacks from the boss.

Surbrus.6942:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

There are NO BABYSITTERS to Heal you, or Take Hits for you. You have to be on the MOVE+DODGE and contribute in Control/Support and Damage!!

I always found it pretty hilarious when guildies would say that the Vine boss in TA was a joke. The moment I screw up and my Guardian goes down for the count, or I need to step out of combat for some out of combat healing (due to all defensive cool downs being off), all the glass cannons in the party instantly die mere moments after I do.

To be fair, after seeing that happen a couple times, my party would listen to me whenever I said I was in trouble in that fight, and the spider boss.

lol… That’s funny. Hopefully they LEARN from you.

Snowy.9580:

ProphetSword.5427:

Whatever happened to the idea that everyone was responsible for themselves?

No one seems to like it, at least everybody I’ve talked to seems to think the novelty has worn off and what with fotm grind being the new thing that is a “must have”, they may as well add the trinity, at least dungeons wouldn’t be a repair fest cus some people can’t play (no finger pointing, a mere fact that some pug runs are hellish, it’s hard to stay alive when 3 other players are dead at your feet because they didn’t move their kittens in time!).

Well, whether the “novelty” has worn off or not has nothing to do with it. It’s the way the game is intended to be played. They can try to fight the system all that they want, but they’re only setting themselves up for disappointment.

Suddenflame.2601:

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

And how do you make the mob hit you, when a thief with a backstab/crit build is tripling/quadrupling your DPS, since you are focusing on “tanking”. I guarantee your dps is no where near that of a glass cannon thief, or elementalist.

Namu.5712:

People make support roles because dead dps means no dps.

Don’t know how much time I spend in runs rezing glass cannon pure dps people…. warriors and thieves are especially known for this crap….. ya sure they hit for alot but as soon as they miss a dodge and get hit its GG now the group is kittened trying to res you.

While tank and heal builds aren’t used in the traditional sense they are still needed to support the group, doesn’t mean they can’t dps at the same time.

Well, I am in a downed state as much as the next guy, but that doesnt mean I am standing in the fire like a noob, or I am specced as glass cannon. I work in survivability into my traits.

cesmode.4257:

AW Lore.5682:

my guild group and i had been doing AC for a while, and we had gotten pretty good at it, then during one of the runs we had a missing fifth, so we took a random pug who was an ele and claimed to be a “healer ele”, who focused only on just…using water ele spells.

that run felt like it was just a 4 man run, me and another guildie kept whispering each other, and we both agreed that we did not felt at all that the “healer ele” contributed much to the team, if at all.

its an anectodal experience and thus your mileage can vary, but thats how i felt having a “healer” in our team, and would rather have a random balanced or different

I think its OK that he uses water spells to throw out SOME dps and heal simultaneously. It is how I plan to play my ele when I level it. But builds where you purely try to do ONE thing like tank or heal..sometimes are a detriment unless you are dpsing at the same time.

If people disapprove of an elementalist running with water attunment, why is it in the game?

As an Elementalist myself, You should NEVER stay with 1 attunment.
Always need to switch constantly because you need to use the skills the attunments have for the situation you need to adapt to.

For example:
Fire attunment is excellent for Damage.
Water attunment is excellent for Support
Lightning attument is excellent for Control/Support
Earth is excellent for excellent for Control/Damage

“Also depending on weapon set you use”
But you’ll need to switch to the skills you need based on weapon choice and skills they have. You’ll be running, dodging, and using a bunch of attunment skills and utilities.

Good luck. =) It’s fun though.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

cesmode.4257:

I keep reading threads on “is this tanking build viable?” , “is this healing build viable?”

I run dungeons and when I see someone try to tank, after a few seconds the boss either locks on someone else or rofl stomps the would-be tank. After all of your cooldowns are wasted staying alive, are you really helping the group?

I know people can try to steer themselves in the direction of tank/heals, but do true tanks and healers exist? Do you think that by being a complete support build / heal build you are 100% helping the group? Shouldn’t you have some offensive capabilities and not just focus on your support cooldowns?

I grow weary of people saying they are a tank, because this game isn’t meant to have tanks.
I also understand that some fights prefer ranged, but when someone tells me to go ranged all the time on my thief, I get annoyed…the game isn’t meant for all ranged weapons. Shouldn’t I be able to run the dungeon the way I want, if I play it correctly?

I 100% Agree and feel your pain man!
I’m getting annoyed with people who want to main tank or main heal in GW2
They dont understand that this combat system has no Holy Trinity!

GW2 Combat system is based off:
Damage/Control/Support.

Every Class must learn to deal “Damage” while mentaining “Control” and being able to “Support” themselves to be self-effeciant.

In a 5 man dungoen, everyone must coordinate “Control & Support” while contributing in “Damage” to successfully overcome a challenging Dungoen.

There are NO BABYSITTERS to Heal you, or Take Hits for you. You have to be on the MOVE+DODGE and contribute in Control/Support and Damage!!

Dont be upset about it though. It’s always best to help and teach new players what you know so they can improve with their skills so you can run better with them for future contents. Dont expect people to know GW2’s combat mechanics. people are used to MMORPGs with Tank/Healer/DPS roles so that is all what they can think about..

This style of combat system is new to the genre.

Agreed. 100%. I think that your main objective is to stay alive, but keep up DPS as well. Damage/Control/Support. This does not mean Damage/Tank/Healer. You wont be able to hold aggro effectively. You wont be able to keep the ’ kitten alive that stand in bad floor. Damage/Control/Support…with Control and Support dishing out their fair share of DPS.

People complain about glass cannons(which my thief is not specced as), but I am whining about people that cant spit out any respectable dps…boss fights taking forever. And we would survive the fight, just as quickly, if people put out more dps.

Surbrus.6942:

Just because there is no Holy Trinity doesn’t mean that specialized roles are useless.

As for tanking… have you ever been in Twilight Arbour Explorable? When I go in there with my Guardian I pretty much take all the attacks from the Vine and the Spider boss, and if I go down, and don’t rally quickly, there is a very real risk of a wipe that otherwise did not exist.

Also, as a Hammer/Staff Guardian using Altruistic Healing (poorly named trait, as it encourages you to be greedy with your buffs), there is a great amount of damage mitigation provided, especially when I am able to keep the attention of enemies, or body-block projectiles that are heading to my allies.

Note: my Guardian build also puts out a lot of damage, so its not like I am just a one dimensional Guardian.

And not to mention I would love explanation as to how a warrior with shouts runs in and generally always tanks if they heal. Oh yeah that’s right because there is a priority system; and support roles will always be helpful.

cesmode.4257:

Surbrus.6942:

Just because there is no Holy Trinity doesn’t mean that specialized roles are useless.

As for tanking… have you ever been in Twilight Arbour Explorable? When I go in there with my Guardian I pretty much take all the attacks from the Vine and the Spider boss, and if I go down, and don’t rally quickly, there is a very real risk of a wipe that otherwise did not exist.

Also, as a Hammer/Staff Guardian using Altruistic Healing (poorly named trait, as it encourages you to be greedy with your buffs), there is a great amount of damage mitigation provided, especially when I am able to keep the attention of enemies, or body-block projectiles that are heading to my allies.

Note: my Guardian build also puts out a lot of damage, so its not like I am just a one dimensional Guardian.

Sorry, but I highly doubt that you take most of the hits from the spider boss. Aggro management is nearly impossible in this game since there arent any aggro modifiers or aggro specific abilities. Not to mention, I dont think its a matter of highest dps = aggro. I remember an Anet post saying the system takes into account dps, armor type, and range.

The spider boss moves all over. Ive never seen someone keep him still for more than a few seconds.

Your partially right. The system is called “hate”. Every boss has a specific hate generator with characteristic innate to them. Such as one boss will prefer heavy armoured close range, while another boss will prefer heavy armoured Long range. One thing that generates hate on 90% of bosses is rezing a downed player. Also bosses will sometimes choose the person causing the most conditions on them. My warrior i designed him to try to control all types of bosses. If i am not the type of character the boss hate generator wants i improvise by trying to give the target of his hate a chance to escape. In general i find that my character becomes the target so well most times that i can run in circles with my entire group shooting it and it will chase me to its death.

One Example is Kohl in AC. His target will always be the character with the most toughness no matter what range. Only way to peel him from that character is 1: character jumps into water. 2: tough character dies, 3: tough character downed or exceeds range while another character applies large amounts of conditions.

Cave troll in AC will focus tough characters as well but tests shown that the cave troll will focus a warrior with a rifle more then a warrior with a shield. making ranged heavy armour a primary focus of the cave troll. As far as i can tell nothing will break the cave troll hate on a rifle warrior even jumping in the water just makes the troll move around to the stair case that the warrior is coming up. Death is the only breakage from the trolls hate.

cesmode.4257:

Suddenflame.2601:

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

And how do you make the mob hit you, when a thief with a backstab/crit build is tripling/quadrupling your DPS, since you are focusing on “tanking”. I guarantee your dps is no where near that of a glass cannon thief, or elementalist.

Unlikely. If you have 50% crit chance, and 200% crit damage, thats 50% more damage. Significant? Yes. Quadruple? Not even close.

Not to mention the only way that a greatsword warrior could sit there doing that is if someone else had aggro and didn’t move (tank) in the first place, otherwise they would have to stop hundred blades prematurely.

The backstab thief would end up botching some backstabs and CnD’s due to the mob’s erratic movement.

Surbrus.6942:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

There are NO BABYSITTERS to Heal you, or Take Hits for you. You have to be on the MOVE+DODGE and contribute in Control/Support and Damage!!

I always found it pretty hilarious when guildies would say that the Vine boss in TA was a joke. The moment I screw up and my Guardian goes down for the count, or I need to step out of combat for some out of combat healing (due to all defensive cool downs being off), all the glass cannons in the party instantly die mere moments after I do.

To be fair, after seeing that happen a couple times, my party would listen to me whenever I said I was in trouble in that fight, and the spider boss.

Also, without body-blocking projectiles heading for our ranged glass cannons, some sections of the dungeons can also be a bit more of a pain rallying party members more often than should be required.

cesmode.4257:

Sorry, but I highly doubt that you take most of the hits from the spider boss. Aggro management is nearly impossible in this game since there arent any aggro modifiers or aggro specific abilities. Not to mention, I dont think its a matter of highest dps = aggro. I remember an Anet post saying the system takes into account dps, armor type, and range.

The spider boss moves all over. Ive never seen someone keep him still for more than a few seconds.

Many bosses and other dungeon enemies prioritize Guardians, or people wielding shields. The only time that Spider boss was not directing all attacks my way (when on my Guardian) was when a Shield wielding warrior guildie was in the party, then the boss seemed to randomly switch between us.

This is very evident when you position yourself on the opposite side of the Spider that your party is attacking from. They don’t receive any of the AoE attacks from the boss.

And then the spider comes walking RIGHT for me. I still do not think this is true..I mean its psosible that they can prioritize if you have a shield, just like they would your armor type…however, I still get targeted often enough as a thief.

I cannot rely on YOU , being “tank specced”, to keep him stationary so I can sit at range and pew/pew with shortbow and grab a cup of coffee. The boss moves, hits that ele over there, spits bad floor down..and then comes and tickles me pink in the corner.

cesmode.4257:

Namu.5712:

People make support roles because dead dps means no dps.

Don’t know how much time I spend in runs rezing glass cannon pure dps people…. warriors and thieves are especially known for this crap….. ya sure they hit for alot but as soon as they miss a dodge and get hit its GG now the group is kittened trying to res you.

While tank and heal builds aren’t used in the traditional sense they are still needed to support the group, doesn’t mean they can’t dps at the same time.

Well, I am in a downed state as much as the next guy, but that doesnt mean I am standing in the fire like a noob, or I am specced as glass cannon. I work in survivability into my traits.

I’m sorry but, when ever I run a dungoen with someone claiming to be build for Tanking or Support, we always end up dying.

But whenever I party with friends who know how to coordinate Control and Support skills while contributing in Damage with me, We Always end up pulling it off well as a team.

Jee… I wonder why?

I would never call my character a tank. But I often will refer to my Ele as a Bunker character. When asked what that means I tell teammates that it means I can take a lot of punishment and keep going. Of course there is no taunt so I will let the team know I am in no way a tank and do not expect me to keep the bosses attention but I often can keep attention on me.

I disagree with the sentiment that a “tanky” character is useless, since dead people do zero DPS. In my experience I’ve single handedly saved pugs from wipes constantly because I’m a bunker build and can get people up while the boss is on me. Heck in the often farmed dungeons I can solo nearly all of the simple kill them before they kill you boss encounters. It takes forever but it means the fight doesn’t reset when my party all got hit by an AOE and didn’t survive.

I’ve beaten tier1/2 fractals bosses while 1-3 men down. All because I’m a bunker build can take a hit well and have incredible self healing ability.

On my incredibly squishier characters or builds I bring a bit more damage sure. But I cannot single handedly turn a fight around, I don’t dare attempt to res a ally in a bosses AOE range and I definitely don’t feel as useful to a pug.

There is no Holy Trinity; however, there is no system in place to replace the Holy Trinity either. Guild Wars 2 broke down the old familiar trinity system and introduced in its place a role-agnostic system that depends on individual performance rather than clearly defined builds.

I’d argue one of the weaknesses of Guild Wars 2 is the absence of a robust metagame. PvE tends to be a hectic free-for-all with every player responsible for keeping themselves alive. Teamwork doesn’t happen through roles but by coordination (picking up Downed allies) or navigating terrain (kiting, using environmental weapons). Consequently our builds don’t provide us with clearly defined roles, and therefore we don’t come up with a new lexicon. And therefore we’re back to using outdated, inaccurate—but familiar—terms like DPS, Tank and Support.

Language emerges out of necessity and develops organically. As long as we have no roles to define, then we won’t invent new definitions.

(PVP is a pretty good example of this phenomenon. We needed a way to define highly defensive attrition builds, so we have “Bunker”. And we needed a way to describe fragile brinksmanship builds that depend on dealing a huge amount of damage before dying, and so we have “Glass Cannon”.)

Servanin.5021:

cesmode.4257:

Suddenflame.2601:

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

And how do you make the mob hit you, when a thief with a backstab/crit build is tripling/quadrupling your DPS, since you are focusing on “tanking”. I guarantee your dps is no where near that of a glass cannon thief, or elementalist.

Unlikely. If you have 50% crit chance, and 200% crit damage, thats 50% more damage. Significant? Yes. Quadruple? Not even close.

Not to mention the only way that a greatsword warrior could sit there doing that is if someone else had aggro and didn’t move (tank) in the first place, otherwise they would have to stop hundred blades prematurely.

The backstab thief would end up botching some backstabs and CnD’s due to the mob’s erratic movement.

Erradic movement…say…because he switches his focus to someone else other than the would be tank?

cesmode.4257:

Servanin.5021:

cesmode.4257:

Suddenflame.2601:

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

And how do you make the mob hit you, when a thief with a backstab/crit build is tripling/quadrupling your DPS, since you are focusing on “tanking”. I guarantee your dps is no where near that of a glass cannon thief, or elementalist.

Unlikely. If you have 50% crit chance, and 200% crit damage, thats 50% more damage. Significant? Yes. Quadruple? Not even close.

Not to mention the only way that a greatsword warrior could sit there doing that is if someone else had aggro and didn’t move (tank) in the first place, otherwise they would have to stop hundred blades prematurely.

The backstab thief would end up botching some backstabs and CnD’s due to the mob’s erratic movement.

Erradic movement…say…because he switches his focus to someone else other than the would be tank?

I find that mobs tend to just fixate on one character for a really long time, then switch. If that character happens to be able to eat all the auto-attacks and never move, its beneficial to everybody.

Try landing a dragon tooth when a champion is chasing a kiter.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

cesmode.4257:

Namu.5712:

People make support roles because dead dps means no dps.

Don’t know how much time I spend in runs rezing glass cannon pure dps people…. warriors and thieves are especially known for this crap….. ya sure they hit for alot but as soon as they miss a dodge and get hit its GG now the group is kittened trying to res you.

While tank and heal builds aren’t used in the traditional sense they are still needed to support the group, doesn’t mean they can’t dps at the same time.

Well, I am in a downed state as much as the next guy, but that doesnt mean I am standing in the fire like a noob, or I am specced as glass cannon. I work in survivability into my traits.

I’m sorry but, when ever I run a dungoen with someone claiming to be build for Tanking or Support, we always end up dying.

But whenever I party with friends who know how to coordinate Control and Support skills while contributing in Damage with me, We Always end up pulling it off well as a team.

Jee… I wonder why?

Did I say anything about traditional tanking? No I didn’t.

Tanky builds I refer to are people that dont stack everything into power/precision. They are people that have traited into toughness and maybe vit, and their gear isn’t straight beserkers.

Same goes for a more support heal role from like a elementalist who is still dishing out loads of damage but switching to say water attunement here and there to nullify heavy melee damage then switching back to their big dps.

Players have adopted the mind set of anything other then a warrior or guardian sucks for pve. and if you aren’t dps built you hurt the group. Might not be the case on your server but I see it all day. Sitting in group….. do we want a ranger? Group: no try and get another warrior or something that actually does dps…. lol right.

Suddenflame.2601:

[hate mechanics]

Yes this is what I was referring to. Never actually knew the terms or anything because I primarily just run dungeons with guildies and we figure them out for ourselves for the most part.

But yes, in TA the Vine prioritizes a Staff Guardian (healing, ranged, high armour/tough?) and the Spider prioritizes a Hammer Guardian (healing, melee, high armour/tough?).

Also we had found that a Shield wielding Engineer also got a lot of hate from those bosses, especially the Vine (high toughness ranged).

Maybe I should take a peak into the dungeon mechanic forums and actually compare my guild’s findings with other people’s findings.

Servanin.5021:

cesmode.4257:

Servanin.5021:

cesmode.4257:

Suddenflame.2601:

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

And how do you make the mob hit you, when a thief with a backstab/crit build is tripling/quadrupling your DPS, since you are focusing on “tanking”. I guarantee your dps is no where near that of a glass cannon thief, or elementalist.

Unlikely. If you have 50% crit chance, and 200% crit damage, thats 50% more damage. Significant? Yes. Quadruple? Not even close.

Not to mention the only way that a greatsword warrior could sit there doing that is if someone else had aggro and didn’t move (tank) in the first place, otherwise they would have to stop hundred blades prematurely.

The backstab thief would end up botching some backstabs and CnD’s due to the mob’s erratic movement.

Erradic movement…say…because he switches his focus to someone else other than the would be tank?

I find that mobs tend to just fixate on one character for a really long time, then switch. If that character happens to be able to eat all the auto-attacks and never move, its beneficial to everybody.

Try landing a dragon tooth when a champion is chasing a kiter.

Those are called “Army Fodders”
I dont revive people who just stand still soak damage and then die. If they die, I’ll revive them later after the fight is over. I wont risk my life for someone like that.

But if I see someone who is moving, dodging, doing Damage/Control/Support skills, and actually TRYING to do something in combat, I’ll happily revive him/her… Because I know that player is actually worth the risk. If I die, I’ll be revived and we can both coordinate together.

But reviving someone who is just going to die again, is worthless… Too risky

With guild activities (raids) incoming I do expect a new mechanic that will allow more role diversification to take place. There will be a more pronounced swing to a healer and tank or mechanic that will allow this to be viable. In a few months time things will look a little different.

cesmode.4257:

I keep reading threads on “is this tanking build viable?” , “is this healing build viable?”

I run dungeons and when I see someone try to tank, after a few seconds the boss either locks on someone else or rofl stomps the would-be tank. After all of your cooldowns are wasted staying alive, are you really helping the group?

I know people can try to steer themselves in the direction of tank/heals, but do true tanks and healers exist? Do you think that by being a complete support build / heal build you are 100% helping the group? Shouldn’t you have some offensive capabilities and not just focus on your support cooldowns?

I grow weary of people saying they are a tank, because this game isn’t meant to have tanks.
I also understand that some fights prefer ranged, but when someone tells me to go ranged all the time on my thief, I get annoyed…the game isn’t meant for all ranged weapons. Shouldn’t I be able to run the dungeon the way I want, if I play it correctly?

So… what you’re saying is, the only viable role is DPS. And you’d be right. How is this a good thing? This is terrible, and a gross oversimplification of the genre.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Servanin.5021:

cesmode.4257:

Servanin.5021:

cesmode.4257:

Suddenflame.2601:

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

And how do you make the mob hit you, when a thief with a backstab/crit build is tripling/quadrupling your DPS, since you are focusing on “tanking”. I guarantee your dps is no where near that of a glass cannon thief, or elementalist.

Unlikely. If you have 50% crit chance, and 200% crit damage, thats 50% more damage. Significant? Yes. Quadruple? Not even close.

Not to mention the only way that a greatsword warrior could sit there doing that is if someone else had aggro and didn’t move (tank) in the first place, otherwise they would have to stop hundred blades prematurely.

The backstab thief would end up botching some backstabs and CnD’s due to the mob’s erratic movement.

Erradic movement…say…because he switches his focus to someone else other than the would be tank?

I find that mobs tend to just fixate on one character for a really long time, then switch. If that character happens to be able to eat all the auto-attacks and never move, its beneficial to everybody.

Try landing a dragon tooth when a champion is chasing a kiter.

Those are called “Army Fodders”
I dont revive people who just stand still soak damage and then die. If they die, I’ll revive them later after the fight is over. I wont risk my life for someone like that.

But if I see someone who is moving, dodging, doing Damage/Control/Support skills, and actually TRYING to do something in combat, I’ll happily revive him/her… Because I know that player is actually worth the risk. If I die, I’ll be revived and we can both coordinate together.

But reviving someone who is just going to die again, is worthless… Too risky

I’ve been able to do it as a Guardian in power/precision gear on the way up, I didn’t switch to tanky stats until level 60. Champion just can’t get past all the healing/blocks of scepter/focus.

postmanmanman.4026:

cesmode.4257:

I keep reading threads on “is this tanking build viable?” , “is this healing build viable?”

I run dungeons and when I see someone try to tank, after a few seconds the boss either locks on someone else or rofl stomps the would-be tank. After all of your cooldowns are wasted staying alive, are you really helping the group?

I know people can try to steer themselves in the direction of tank/heals, but do true tanks and healers exist? Do you think that by being a complete support build / heal build you are 100% helping the group? Shouldn’t you have some offensive capabilities and not just focus on your support cooldowns?

I grow weary of people saying they are a tank, because this game isn’t meant to have tanks.
I also understand that some fights prefer ranged, but when someone tells me to go ranged all the time on my thief, I get annoyed…the game isn’t meant for all ranged weapons. Shouldn’t I be able to run the dungeon the way I want, if I play it correctly?

So… what you’re saying is, the only viable role is DPS. And you’d be right. How is this a good thing? This is terrible, and a gross oversimplification of the genre.

WHat are you talking about!?
DPS role? There is no DPS role!

It’s Combat system is based off “Damage/Control/Support”

Which means not only do you have to contribute in doing “Damage” but you must use coordinate using “Control” skills to stay in “Control” while being able to “Supporting” yourself and others in combat. This clearly takes a lot of teamwork, Movement and Dodging and staying on your toes.

The fact that you and your team work together, specially in 5 man dungoens, in coordinationg skills and staying on your feet, MAKES this game More complicated than Simple which takes Skills.

Because there are no Tank/Healer and DPS roles, It’s a lot more challenging.
Because you dont have any Babysitters healing you so you’ll be safe.
Because you dont have any Tank to keep Hate, so you feel safe.

There is no Safety, You have to me on the move.
People who just focus on DPS… are pointless.

Play the combat system for what it is so you

PS. This isnt a direct rely to you, this is kinda more towards people in General who think other wise.

cesmode.4257:

Suddenflame.2601:

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

And how do you make the mob hit you, when a thief with a backstab/crit build is tripling/quadrupling your DPS, since you are focusing on “tanking”. I guarantee your dps is no where near that of a glass cannon thief, or elementalist.

full DPS ele deals around 2k of damage to a target that i can equally do 800damage per hit. Sure i lose a large amount of damage but at the same time without me that 2k of damage ele would be dead in matter of seconds (usually just 1 hit) where as my dude can take the beating. Only 1 boss has ever 1 shotted my character and it was a bandit on the Asura path of CM. I kept missing my block and dodge by my poor timing kitten 4am play times). As long as my character is significantly impacting the team i can sleep at night. I have been known to take on Group Events by myself such as a fractual boss event i managed to solo 3 bosses of factural by myself. Not to mention other Group events that i can handle. DPS have their role but in the grand scheme of things when playing solo they will die far more often then my character. Plus i can always drag a fight out and win.

Servanin.5021:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Servanin.5021:

cesmode.4257:

Servanin.5021:

cesmode.4257:

Suddenflame.2601:

My warrior i built, Healing power/ Toughness/ vit/ power in mind (using my jewerly and armour). The goal of my warrior is to draw the hate of the enemy and make it focus on me while my ally takes it down. I also do a fair amount of a damage. Im tanky but not a full fledged tank in the regards that i just dont stand there and take it. I move around the enemy and ensure some of its attacks miss. I also use a shield to block potentially deadly attacks.

And how do you make the mob hit you, when a thief with a backstab/crit build is tripling/quadrupling your DPS, since you are focusing on “tanking”. I guarantee your dps is no where near that of a glass cannon thief, or elementalist.

Unlikely. If you have 50% crit chance, and 200% crit damage, thats 50% more damage. Significant? Yes. Quadruple? Not even close.

Not to mention the only way that a greatsword warrior could sit there doing that is if someone else had aggro and didn’t move (tank) in the first place, otherwise they would have to stop hundred blades prematurely.

The backstab thief would end up botching some backstabs and CnD’s due to the mob’s erratic movement.

Erradic movement…say…because he switches his focus to someone else other than the would be tank?

I find that mobs tend to just fixate on one character for a really long time, then switch. If that character happens to be able to eat all the auto-attacks and never move, its beneficial to everybody.

Try landing a dragon tooth when a champion is chasing a kiter.

Those are called “Army Fodders”
I dont revive people who just stand still soak damage and then die. If they die, I’ll revive them later after the fight is over. I wont risk my life for someone like that.

But if I see someone who is moving, dodging, doing Damage/Control/Support skills, and actually TRYING to do something in combat, I’ll happily revive him/her… Because I know that player is actually worth the risk. If I die, I’ll be revived and we can both coordinate together.

But reviving someone who is just going to die again, is worthless… Too risky

I’ve been able to do it as a Guardian in power/precision gear on the way up, I didn’t switch to tanky stats until level 60. Champion just can’t get past all the healing/blocks of scepter/focus.

Gear doesnt matter bro… I’ve done Dynamic Events with crappy armor and Naked.
It helps but its not as important as knowing how and when to use your skills.

Skills such dealing “Damage”,
Skills such as “Control”
and “Support”.

Build your character with whatever stats you like. But dont rely on your Armor/Traits. People who do end up lacking “Player skills” because they expect the “Stats” to do the rest. lol

People just need to focus more on building Skills based on the Combat mechanics, not based on stats. Stats are fine but how you use your skills will ultimatly matter the most.

HERE HERE OP! Yes, finally let’s be clear on this! The terms tank, healer, and DPS as defined by the “holy Trinity” established by so many previous MMOs do not exist in GW2.

However, the freedom and choice remain to spec and gear almost exclusively for defense, healing and group support or offense (or anywhere along this “spectrum” of specialization). Likewise focusing one’s build on one of these aspects necessitates being conversely proportionate in other areas of specialization. This specializing there by lends it’s self to being a member of a group best suited to receiving and mitigating damage, healing or lessening the damage taken by other group members or, of course, dealing damage to the group’s target(s).

In my humble opinion I submit that it may behoove the community of GW2 players at large to come up with some sort of abbreviated or contracted vernacular verbiage, for the sake of speedy communication of the concepts of these “specializations” if for no other reason .

The terms ”tank, healer, and DPS”, though not of the “Trinity” definitions, seem to be causing a great deal of semantic confusion and obviously strong emotional objections and backlash so I suggest we open the floor for new possible terms to express the ”GW2 DEFINITELY NOT Trinity”concepts.

P.S The terms Control, Support, and Damage seem to clearly be in first place by a large margin.

Narkosys.5173:

With guild activities (raids) incoming I do expect a new mechanic that will allow more role diversification to take place. There will be a more pronounced swing to a healer and tank or mechanic that will allow this to be viable. In a few months time things will look a little different.

They did not say raids are coming or even that 10 man content is definitely coming..I think all they said was hat they wouldn’t rule it out.

With that said, the GAME..the CODE of the game is designed so there are no pure tank or pure healy roles. Youll have the same nonsense now, where people think they can tank and go down easily.

It will still be a 10 man dodge fest like it is now…

Servanin.5021:

No such thing as healing power/toughness/vitality gear, so there probably isn’t a massive DPS difference between a cleric that stays in all the time, and a berserker that assuming he isn’t faceplanted all the time, still has to dodge every auto-attack.

A berserker staying at range kind of defeats the purpose of it; Why would you purposely neuter your DPS and wear an equipment set thats meant to boost it?

Off the top of my head I can think of at least 1 set of exotics with power/toughness/vitality stats…. the Ascalonian Catacombs armor. I think one of the other dungeons offers it too.

Every person is intended to be engaged in a balance of activities during the game. That doesn’t mean there aren’t specialties, it just means that unlike say GW1 where a monk was insulted if he so much as hit something with a wand, specialties don’t govern 100% of your time and effort.

Also, classes are more flexible and mean little next to specialization. Mesmers can “tank” and warriors can “heal”. But you have to use everything at your disposal because you are just contributing to those efforts – you can’t do them all by yourself.

Servanin.5021:

Guild wars didn’t have threat values like traditional MMOs either, but it still had tanks and healers. Its the same deal here; You may not have a taunt, or a 500% threat modifier on your attacks, but you can still force enemies to attack you if you do it properly.

This man has it correct. Chances are your meager DPS isn’t as impressive as you think it is if you’re not the one holding agro.

THE TRINITY IS DEAD. LONG LIVE GUILD WARS 2!

Each profession has a different focus and a different play style, but they are all pretty flexible. Any class can do anything. Actually, a bit more specialization might be nice; the trait system is good, but I feel like there should be something else to make your play style unique.