Guild Wars 2

I started this game about five months ago, and decided that I wanted to play some of the higher level content. So I got all of my ascended armor and weapons and trinkets (even the underwater stuff), and filled them with the best infusions and upgrade components. It would be impossible for me to find any item for any slot that would constitute any sort of improvement over what I have. But now I’m finding myself seriously unmotivated to play, because there’s no point.

I find it crazy that, even if I worked up to fractal scale 100, and completed every raid, I wouldn’t get a single item that improved any of my stats. And when I watch some of the top guilds on YouTube, I see that they’re busy doing moron things like killing the same boss for the 200th time with five guys instead of ten… or running a stopwatch to see if they can finish the content a few seconds faster than before (i.e. boredom).

I get that this game is geared towards casual players. And I LOVE that because I work 75 hours/week, and don’t have tons of time. But I think ANet has made it too easy to hit a dead-end, and that some of your character’s potential should only be reachable by completing high level content. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of this game. But save me something to work for! You shouldn’t be able to max out your potential in the open world.

So,you’re saying you want a continuous gear treadmill? Because eventually you’re going to hit max stats without one if you play long enough and you’ll be right where you are right now.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

So,you’re saying you want a continuous gear treadmill? Because eventually you’re going to hit max stats without one if you play long enough and you’ll be right where you are right now.

It depends on your definition of a “gear treadmill.” I think that:

1) There should absolutely be some concrete incentive to do fractals and raids.
2) Every new expansion should introduce gear that’s at least a little better than what was previously available.
3) “Legendary” weapons and armor should offer more than a drop-down box for stat combos… and a trail of glitter on the ground.

That is the problem though, if you make the game having to reach high tier difficult content to get best armor stats, then it stops being casual. Personally I never played the game with the intent of getting the best of the best, I play to chill in a giant playground with an amazing combat system. But in order to make the transition for more difficult content with raids and high tier fractals for players willing to do so, these things need to be available in the open-world since most of the game was build in offering a large open world experience. Other than that, the game was build around the idea of skill in PvP and WvW and skins to chase. In the end, maybe you just don’t fall directly into the target audience that the game is catering to and your proposal at the end of your feedback seems really impossible to implement for a game that has been running under the same motto for the last five years. Heck, it is more than that, it is up to Anet franchise as a whole since the original Guild Wars operated under the same system of not offering higher tiers of gear in higher difficult content.

I think you’re approaching the game backwards. To me stats and equipment are just the tools you need to play the game – the point of playing and the ultimate reward is to have fun doing it.

So if I find I’ve already got the best equipment in the game, or at least good enough that I can do everything without needing to upgrade it that’s great, because it means I can just do whatever I want to have fun instead of what the developers have decided I am required to do next in order to progress.

Yes this does mean there’s much less incentive to keep repeating the same content over and over again because you’re not forced to grind tokens or pray for the drop you need, but I see that as a good thing too. It means if and when things stop being fun (whether that’s a specific area or the game as a whole) I can move on to something else. And if I’m still enjoying doing it then I don’t need that extra incentive to force me to do it again, because it’s fun.

Having said that there are lots of other rewards on offer. GW2 uses “horizontal progression” meaning you can reach the top tier quickly but then you can work on different things like new stat combinations/builds or customising how your character looks. A lot of content offers unique skins and items like minis or backpacks, plus items with additional functionality like the Season 3 ascended trinkets which allow you to change the stat combination cheaply and easily so you can switch builds around more easily.

Fallesafe.5932:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

So,you’re saying you want a continuous gear treadmill? Because eventually you’re going to hit max stats without one if you play long enough and you’ll be right where you are right now.

It depends on your definition of a “gear treadmill.” I think that:

1) There should absolutely be some concrete incentive to do fractals and raids.
2) Every new expansion should introduce gear that’s at least a little better than what was previously available.
3) “Legendary” weapons and armor should offer more than a drop-down box for stat combos… and a trail of glitter on the ground.

Every new expansion should introduce gear that’s at least a little better than what was previously available.

That’s a classic gear treadmill. So if that’s what you’re asking for then you’re asking for something that is not what this game is designed around.

Fallesafe.5932:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

So,you’re saying you want a continuous gear treadmill? Because eventually you’re going to hit max stats without one if you play long enough and you’ll be right where you are right now.

It depends on your definition of a “gear treadmill.” I think that:

1) There should absolutely be some concrete incentive to do fractals and raids.
2) Every new expansion should introduce gear that’s at least a little better than what was previously available.
3) “Legendary” weapons and armor should offer more than a drop-down box for stat combos… and a trail of glitter on the ground.

1.) There are incentives:

Fun – yeah I know, today all MMOs are about getting that carrot and for most people the constant chase is fun. Then again, some people enjoy playing a game just because they “enjoy playing it”.

Challenge – get to fractal 100, complete challenge mode, then say you are done, because you sure aren’t challenge wise before that. On a similar note: “Have you killed every raid boss at least 1nce yet?”

Achievements – granted most are quite easy, have you completed all of them yet?

Legendary and expensive skins – the game is called fashion wars for a reason.

2.) Absolutely not. Then again, they did just that with HoT and 4 stat items on a limited scale.

3.) Legendary items are fine.

I’m going to put this as plain and simple as I can: GW2 will not make you happy unless you chose to change your gaming habit/priorities.

The game is specifically designed to NOT add repeated item grind. Many find ascended already to trying to aquire and arenanet have been vigilant in making ascended trinkets easier and easier to get (not to mention exotics left and right). A big part of the core playerbase enjoys GW2 exactly because of this.

Unless arenanet decide to risk alienating a big part of their core playerbase, I doubt what you are looking for will find it’s way into this game.

My suggestions:

1.) find a guild and friends, it makes the game enjoyable even without chasing that gear carrot
2.) get into raiding, it will keep you occupied quit a while. Not to mention you will be likely required to master multiple characters (and gear them too)
3.) try out other professions. The game is very friendly to running alternative characters. Mix it up race wise too, the unique story up to level 30 is quite fun.
4.) aim for a legendary item. The process can be quite fun.
5.) if all else fails, take a break.

Wait a second, how did you manage to get this far while maintaining a 75h work per week schedule? I mean, I have a 60h work per week schedule and needed two years for accomplishing that.

BTT: What the other people have said. This game is not about treadmill, about reaching levels beyond the top by pushing the stats. It’s about having fun. Simple as that. If you are able to rush this and need a carrot in order to push your own equipment as the prime target, maybe, and I’m not mean by saying this, it’s not the right game in the long run for you. If you want to work for something, try to speed clear raids even better, gather all the collectibles, unlock all the skins! If a carrot is necessary it’s possible that the way you work towards progress isn’t fun enough in the first place.

The thing about gear treadmills is your gear improves so you can tackle harder content, not you.

And when I watch some of the top guilds on YouTube, I see that they’re busy doing moron things like killing the same boss for the 200th time with five guys instead of ten… or running a stopwatch to see if they can finish the content a few seconds faster than before (i.e. boredom).

Is it boredom? Is it “moron things?” Or is it the players doing this to show that they can get better and better at what they do. That’s something they would not be able to do if their gear was carrying them. A gear treadmill stops players from improving themselves like this because they’ll be chasing the gear improvement instead of self improvement.

I agree with Fallesafe. There should atleast be some merit in doing challenge modes in raids. The rewards system has always been pretty crappy. Most of the time you get no more than an exotic armor piece worth no more than 30 silver.
As for flog’s statement that the game has been running under the same motto for years…that’s plain not true. The game has strayed far from what it used to be, what it once promised and what it once stood for.
Raids were always meant to be high end content for people who wanted challenging content. So it stands to reason since it is “harder” than regular content it should be rewarded differently which it isn’t.
And instead of sticking to their original thought they implemented easier raid content to make raids more accessible to beginners only succeeding in loosing their regular raid player base. They implemented the raids simply for people interested in more challenging content.
Furthermore, the original guildwars didn’t operate under this conclusion either. Every elite area offered the chance of high end equippment even more so if you did them in hardmode. So please get your facts straight before making such a statement.

There is no use in rising the max stats.
1) stats rise + stronger enemies = same relation
2) stats rise + even stronger enemies = same as “same stats and stronger enemies”
3) stats rise + enemies stay the same = it gets easier

Instead of improving stats you should improve your skill. git gud.

Smoochoo.1086:

I agree with Fallesafe. There should atleast be some merit in doing challenge modes in raids. The rewards system has always been pretty crappy. Most of the time you get no more than an exotic armor piece worth no more than 30 silver.
As for flog’s statement that the game has been running under the same motto for years…that’s plain not true. The game has strayed far from what it used to be, what it once promised and what it once stood for.
Raids were always meant to be high end content for people who wanted challenging content. So it stands to reason since it is “harder” than regular content it should be rewarded differently which it isn’t.
And instead of sticking to their original thought they implemented easier raid content to make raids more accessible to beginners only succeeding in loosing their regular raid player base. They implemented the raids simply for people interested in more challenging content.
Furthermore, the original guildwars didn’t operate under this conclusion either. Every elite area offered the chance of high end equippment even more so if you did them in hardmode. So please get your facts straight before making such a statement.

I know they had “Perfect” weapons (that game’s version of ascended). Perhaps you can tell us what elite areas had better than Perfect.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Perfect

Fallesafe.5932:

I find it crazy that, even if I worked up to fractal scale 100, and completed every raid, I wouldn’t get a single item that improved any of my stats.

That’s because this game is specifically designed to avoid the power grind you see in pretty much every other MMO. And it’s a great design. It lets you play all you want, when you want. It doesn’t make you feel like you’re in a race you can’t possibly win, because there are professional players there, playing 12+ hours a day. Basically, it lets you play for fun.

But if a grind is what you crave, then there’s grind enough. Only it’s optional and it rewards with skins, not attribute points.

Smoochoo.1086:

Raids were always meant to be high end content for people who wanted challenging content. So it stands to reason since it is “harder” than regular content it should be rewarded differently which it isn’t.

You’re missing the point. The reward in raids is the legendary armor. It’s essentially the same as the grind for any other legendary, except it’s more challenging. It follows the same design principles as the rest of the game. Which it should.

Smoochoo.1086:

Furthermore, the original guildwars didn’t operate under this conclusion either. Every elite area offered the chance of high end equippment even more so if you did them in hardmode. So please get your facts straight before making such a statement.

Careful there, especially when you are so wrong.

GW1 had no gear treadmill. It worked quite similar to GW2 in a way in that you could get a max stats basic set dirt cheap, then get better skins with similar stats.

Those challenge mode items might have had perfect stats, this made them no different then self combined items though.

tl;dr: GW1 had no item treadmill.

Smoochoo.1086:

I agree with Fallesafe. There should atleast be some merit in doing challenge modes in raids. The rewards system has always been pretty crappy. Most of the time you get no more than an exotic armor piece worth no more than 30 silver.
As for flog’s statement that the game has been running under the same motto for years…that’s plain not true. The game has strayed far from what it used to be, what it once promised and what it once stood for.
Raids were always meant to be high end content for people who wanted challenging content. So it stands to reason since it is “harder” than regular content it should be rewarded differently which it isn’t.
And instead of sticking to their original thought they implemented easier raid content to make raids more accessible to beginners only succeeding in loosing their regular raid player base. They implemented the raids simply for people interested in more challenging content.
Furthermore, the original guildwars didn’t operate under this conclusion either. Every elite area offered the chance of high end equippment even more so if you did them in hardmode. So please get your facts straight before making such a statement.

What are you on about ? The ascended zerker gear that I crafted for my mesmer have the same stats as the legendary zerker gear that players will obtain in raids. The armor that I obtained in Guild Wars by completing the story in nightfall has the same stats as the fow armor that you could get by completing the fow multiple times.

I disagree. The fact that I don’t have to improve my gear all the time is exactly what I love about GW2. I hate grinding new gear in other MMOs.

Fractals will probably have a gear treadmill of sorts with infusions.

Adding new tiers of gear (i.e. higher stats) is a trick used by game companies to fool people into thinking that they are being rewarded but what they are really doing is stealing money from you every month to play the same content over and over.

Since this game doesn’t have a subscription, they don’t need to fool people into running on a gear treadmill, so higher stats have no place in this game.

If you have a problem with that design, there are literally EVERY OTHER MMO EVER available for you to enjoy. Leave us in peace.

mtpelion.4562:

Adding new tiers of gear (i.e. higher stats) is a trick used by game companies to fool people into thinking that they are being rewarded but what they are really doing is stealing money from you every month to play the same content over and over.

Since this game doesn’t have a subscription, they don’t need to fool people into running on a gear treadmill, so higher stats have no place in this game.

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts! That must be why GW2 adds in lots more casual content with no point or reward then. Thanks for clearing that up!

Though, I’d have to question why GW2 has the 1-80 grind, the copious amount of gear upgrades you’ll get along the way, the grind for the best gear, the grind to unlock specializations, the gear to unlock all the new HoT stuff(gliding, jumping, lore, mushrooms, etc), the crafting grind, and so on. If being on a treadmill is something other companies use to trick their playerbase, then why does GW2 have any of this? Why not just give you a max-leveled, best-geared, min-max’d toon so you can just play the game? Why have any of that grind to work through?

Or do higher stats only have a place when they suit your argument?

Rhysati.4932:

mtpelion.4562:

Adding new tiers of gear (i.e. higher stats) is a trick used by game companies to fool people into thinking that they are being rewarded but what they are really doing is stealing money from you every month to play the same content over and over.

Since this game doesn’t have a subscription, they don’t need to fool people into running on a gear treadmill, so higher stats have no place in this game.

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts! That must be why GW2 adds in lots more casual content with no point or reward then. Thanks for clearing that up!

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you misread my statement rather than that you are intentionally trying to distort what was said into a strawman.

Rhysati.4932:

mtpelion.4562:

Adding new tiers of gear (i.e. higher stats) is a trick used by game companies to fool people into thinking that they are being rewarded but what they are really doing is stealing money from you every month to play the same content over and over.

Since this game doesn’t have a subscription, they don’t need to fool people into running on a gear treadmill, so higher stats have no place in this game.

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts! That must be why GW2 adds in lots more casual content with no point or reward then. Thanks for clearing that up!

Actually you have that wrong. Increasing the difficulty devalues existing gear and forces players to reaquire better gear with higher stats. The power increase versus older content creates the illusion of an increase in power, where in reality all players do is remain on equal footing with newest content. If you call getting your old gear devalued, being forced to reaquire new gear in order to stay competative and having a constant pressure applied to stay up to date “rewarding”, be my guest. I’ll call it by what it is: a treadmill which keeps you occupied indefinately.

Rhysati.4932:

mtpelion.4562:

Adding new tiers of gear (i.e. higher stats) is a trick used by game companies to fool people into thinking that they are being rewarded but what they are really doing is stealing money from you every month to play the same content over and over.

Since this game doesn’t have a subscription, they don’t need to fool people into running on a gear treadmill, so higher stats have no place in this game.

Though, I’d have to question why GW2 has the 1-80 grind, the copious amount of gear upgrades you’ll get along the way, the grind for the best gear, the grind to unlock specializations, the gear to unlock all the new HoT stuff(gliding, jumping, lore, mushrooms, etc), the crafting grind, and so on. If being on a treadmill is something other companies use to trick their playerbase, then why does GW2 have any of this? Why not just give you a max-leveled, best-geared, min-max’d toon so you can just play the game? Why have any of that grind to work through?

Funny you should mention this. The original concepts for GW2 had just this type of progression in mind. Characters would get downscaled (still happens in lower level areas) and upscaled in all open world zones removing the actual need to level. In spvp they kept the leveling completely out of the games system. Utility skills were in no way tiered and most characters could be done by level 30 with their build.

What was discovered though was that the complete absence of structure as far as levels, skills, gear and zones is considered was to different from what players were used to. Thus a middle ground was used and we got no upscaling, tiered utility skills (which is hilarious since there is no power curve here) and ascended gear as well as HoT masteries.

The difference? The entire progression was always gameplay and skill based and not tied to gear in GW2. The HoT mastery system stays true to this.

Rhysati.4932:

Or do higher stats only have a place when they suit your argument?

I don’t see where mtpelion was advertising for a stat increase, which argument do you mean?

I find it crazy that people want ever-increasing stats. I came here to get away from that. I played Guild Wars 1 because it didn’t offer that. And if that were introduced, I’m pretty sure I’d leave the game…if not right away, eventually.

Guild Wars 1 was a game where skins were what you played for, not stats. This game is the same. As it should be.

GW2 is not about increasting stats, it is about skill swapping, so the next expac will have an additional elite spec to swap out skills. There was a recent nerf to skills so that when they add on the next elite spec, the players can see and feel a buff to abilities, and a reason to buy the expac, but without making the current level 80 enemies trivial. So no, we will not see higher stats.

Rhysati.4932:

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts! That must be why GW2 adds in lots more casual content with no point or reward then. Thanks for clearing that up!

See, I used to play Diablo 3, which is arguably the biggest gear treadmill out there. In no way is the content “challenging”. Scale the gear stats, scale the monster stats and guess what, the gameplay experience remains exactly the same.

Rhysati.4932:

Though, I’d have to question why GW2 has the 1-80 grind, the copious amount of gear upgrades you’ll get along the way, the grind for the best gear, the grind to unlock specializations, the gear to unlock all the new HoT stuff(gliding, jumping, lore, mushrooms, etc), the crafting grind, and so on. If being on a treadmill is something other companies use to trick their playerbase, then why does GW2 have any of this? Why not just give you a max-leveled, best-geared, min-max’d toon so you can just play the game? Why have any of that grind to work through?

Or do higher stats only have a place when they suit your argument?

Levelling up exists as in any other game, to teach you the basics. It’s also optional past your first character (I power levelled all my alts). Same holds true for masteries and crafting, except masteries aren’t even optional, they are strictly once per account. It’s important to point out none of these is in any way difficult or RNG-based.

In no way does this game have a power grind. It has a fashion one.

Gear treadmill /not signed! In every game that has a gear treadmill, posts like this occur regularly. Players reach the cap in gear progression and then demand more. It is a senseless exercise.

I feel there are plenty of rewards for higher contents. You have all the diffrent legendary weapons to work on. The new legendary armor that has be released as well as the new legendary backpacks. There is also the fashion wars side there are plenty of skins that you can only get if you do high content. The way our gear is set up is fine at the moment if we had a gearing treadmill that would be awful for places like wvw. It would put a lot of people at extremly high advantages if the stats just keep raising then people that dont get to play much will never be able to get even footing. With us just having asceneded armor and legendary armor that will give people time to get them. So there isnt that big of an embalance and even if it takes a while for people to get them the way the stats are set a exotic person can still have an almost even ground to fight an ascended person. If they add more higher stats then it would make new comers have a hard time ever reaching it and people that have a busy life style from reaching it.

Fallesafe.5932:

I started this game about five months ago, and decided that I wanted to play some of the higher level content. So I got all of my ascended armor and weapons and trinkets (even the underwater stuff), and filled them with the best infusions and upgrade components. It would be impossible for me to find any item for any slot that would constitute any sort of improvement over what I have. But now I’m finding myself seriously unmotivated to play, because there’s no point.

I find it crazy that, even if I worked up to fractal scale 100, and completed every raid, I wouldn’t get a single item that improved any of my stats. And when I watch some of the top guilds on YouTube, I see that they’re busy doing moron things like killing the same boss for the 200th time with five guys instead of ten… or running a stopwatch to see if they can finish the content a few seconds faster than before (i.e. boredom).

I get that this game is geared towards casual players. And I LOVE that because I work 75 hours/week, and don’t have tons of time. But I think ANet has made it too easy to hit a dead-end, and that some of your character’s potential should only be reachable by completing high level content. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of this game. But save me something to work for! You shouldn’t be able to max out your potential in the open world.

And that is exactly why I left this game. Casual should not mean fashion wars. There needs to be something to work towards and not just…“oh look, my weapon now leaves footprints on the ground” Where is that sense of power you feel when you defeat a boss and get that nice piece of armor you worked hard to earn?

When i realized i was paying money to in gems to just buy nice looking flavor armors/outfits i decided that it was time to move on.

As i keep coming back to the forums to see if anything big has changed, I don’t regret leaving. Jumping puzzles being implemented in every kitten corner of the game (no need to make an interesting solo boss fight or anything that would require skill, lets just see if you can jump from point a to b), no gear stat increase that would justify wanting to raid or do any type of end content. These are just the reasons I will never return unless things change.

Sad to say because I’m not a huge blizzard fan, there is a reason WoW still continues to be the largest MMO. They are doing something right, and if you want to cater to only casual players and give zero reward to those that actually put time and effort into the game, then this is what you should expect. Craft everything (no work needed, just real money for gems to convert to gold to level the professions, and buy the materials)

Fallesafe.5932:

I started this game about five months ago, and decided that I wanted to play some of the higher level content. So I got all of my ascended armor and weapons and trinkets (even the underwater stuff), and filled them with the best infusions and upgrade components. It would be impossible for me to find any item for any slot that would constitute any sort of improvement over what I have. But now I’m finding myself seriously unmotivated to play, because there’s no point.

I find it crazy that, even if I worked up to fractal scale 100, and completed every raid, I wouldn’t get a single item that improved any of my stats. And when I watch some of the top guilds on YouTube, I see that they’re busy doing moron things like killing the same boss for the 200th time with five guys instead of ten… or running a stopwatch to see if they can finish the content a few seconds faster than before (i.e. boredom).

I get that this game is geared towards casual players. And I LOVE that because I work 75 hours/week, and don’t have tons of time. But I think ANet has made it too easy to hit a dead-end, and that some of your character’s potential should only be reachable by completing high level content. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of this game. But save me something to work for! You shouldn’t be able to max out your potential in the open world.

Take the time, and grind out the masteries of HoT, if you haven’t already. Autoloot and gliding make a big difference in QoL of the game.

Nova.2890:

And that is exactly why I left this game. Casual should not mean fashion wars. There needs to be something to work towards and not just…“oh look, my weapon now leaves footprints on the ground” Where is that sense of power you feel when you defeat a boss and get that nice piece of armor you worked hard to earn?

When i realized i was paying money to in gems to just buy nice looking flavor armors/outfits i decided that it was time to move on.

As i keep coming back to the forums to see if anything big has changed, I don’t regret leaving. Jumping puzzles being implemented in every kitten corner of the game (no need to make an interesting solo boss fight or anything that would require skill, lets just see if you can jump from point a to b), no gear stat increase that would justify wanting to raid or do any type of end content. These are just the reasons I will never return unless things change.

Sad to say because I’m not a huge blizzard fan, there is a reason WoW still continues to be the largest MMO. They are doing something right, and if you want to cater to only casual players and give zero reward to those that actually put time and effort into the game, then this is what you should expect. Craft everything (no work needed, just real money for gems to convert to gold to level the professions, and buy the materials)

True, and you know what the best part is? You can go and play literally almost any of the other MMOs on the market right now and get exactly what you desire, a gear treadmill to your liking. In your case WoW.

For everyone else who does not want that, GW2 will remain a valid and enjoyable option.

End result: everyone is happy with a game of their choice.

Rhysati.4932:

mtpelion.4562:

Adding new tiers of gear (i.e. higher stats) is a trick used by game companies to fool people into thinking that they are being rewarded but what they are really doing is stealing money from you every month to play the same content over and over.

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts!

No, I’m afraid it is a trick used by game companies to keep people coming back. MMO business models require regular player logins. Not only does a populated world convince other people the game is thriving, but — whether they use a sub, sub plus store, “optional” sub plus store or just store — players who aren’t playing aren’t paying.

The human brain produces chemicals when faced with challenge and/or new experiences. Those chemicals produce an experience that we think of as fun. MMO content tends to lose its newness faster than developers can throw new stuff into the game. So, developers substitute anticipation of reward for the newness and challenge.

Consider the term “On farm.” This term essentially translates to, “We’ve beaten the challenge. Now, we are repeating the content we’ve mastered over and over ad nauseam until everyone gets what they need. Then, we can progress to the next all-too-short window of newness/challenge, which will be followed by more months of farming.”

Developers could just push out new content and challenges as often as is possible for them and the fun factor produced by the newness would be exactly the same, both in terms of quality and longevity. The thing is, that would mean players would leave when the content gets old, and that doesn’t work for the bottom line. Every time people leave, some of them don;t come back, Thus, carrots on sticks.

The other thing is, different companies use different reward structures. GW2 originally aimed at cosmetics as the endgame rewards. This attracted the people who dislike the repetitive nature of gear treadmill games. However, there are people who like stat chases (imo, it’s crap, but ommv).

So, what we have in GW2 is a compromise. There’s level progression, but not past 80. The idea that every player would have max stats by 80 was abandoned for the Ascended pursuit, but so far there’s no stated intent to go beyond Ascended. So, there’s not a new gear tier every (insert time period). Elite Specs and the HoT gear prefixes are technically horizontal progression, but are considered more powerful.

ANet is using compromise because while they want the game to appeal to players who like vertical progression, they also don’t want to lose the members of their core fan base who came to GW2 to escape the treadmill. As is often the case with compromise, people on both sides are not happy. However, just maybe enough people are in the middle to make the compromise worthwhile. Time will tell.

Nova.2890:

And that is exactly why I left this game.

Yet you’re posting on the forums. o_O

TheOrlyFactor.8341:

Nova.2890:

And that is exactly why I left this game.

Yet you’re posting on the forums. o_O

If you bothered to read 2 paragraphs down…
“As i keep coming back to the forums to see if anything big has changed, I don’t regret leaving.”

You can work on legendary weapons 1.0 2.0, and now armors which are raid only, they are top of the line gear to get. There’s some unique rewards to get from raids too.

GW2 isn’t the typical work for better stats past 80 game, but relies on the player doing the content over and over again for fun and whatever challenge they make for themselves as you mentioned OP. But typical raiders from other games don’t even do this normally either, once you have a raid on farm it’s doing it for the gear and not for the “fun” of it because the challenging part is basically gone.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Consider the term “On farm.” This term essentially translates to, “We’ve beaten the challenge. Now, we are repeating the content we’ve mastered over and over ad nauseam until everyone gets what they need. Then, we can progress to the next all-too-short window of newness/challenge, which will be followed by more months of farming.”

The same exact thing happens in GW2, only the content/challenge/gear isn’t refreshed as often as other games. Anet has this crazy idea that content is suppose to last for years, that’s why we have map metas in HoT, while taking out the gear progression and basically replacing it with little else than a ton of quantity instead of quality rewards.

We currently have living story as the refreshing content, but they’re also really just another farm for the carrot on the stick.

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

gear treadmill, is not synonymous with grind, you can have grind with no treadmill, as gw2 clearly shows. Gear treadmill, is how most developers answer the question of continuing the game.

my point is this, regardless of whether gw2 has gear treadmill or not, they need to answer the question of how they can incentivize content, and set up compelling goals.

some of this is a war of perception, and while many of you will say its the player’s fault for having different expectations, i think its primarily the game’s fault for not communicating, or defining their overall reward paradigm. In general, gw2 doesnt feel very rewarding, not because they dont give you tons of crap, but because most of the crap they give you seems like junk. You dont particularly want it, you probably werent looking for it, and it doesnt usually bring you much closer to your goals.

the flipside of this, is because the game rewards are poorly utilized to incentivize play, many people are happy they can do what they want and get access to everything. so there are some advantages.

overall though i think gw2 needed a better means of making people feel like there is a reason to do specific content.

phys.7689:

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

I don’t think most people against a treadmill for gear don’t understand how this concept works or why it is there. This would most likely only be the case for anyone who started MMOs with Guild Wars 2 and has not played any other MMOs at endgame. Most others likely stick with GW2 exactly because they understand how this works and are sick and/or tired of it in other MMOs.

phys.7689:

gear treadmill, is not synonymous with grind, you can have grind with no treadmill, as gw2 clearly shows. Gear treadmill, is how most developers answer the question of continuing the game.

No, gear treadmills are how developers extend a games livespan with minimal effort. Expansions, story addition and new content continue the game. Changing some numeric values on items and enemys is the easiest way to keep people occupied until actual content gets delivered.

Case in point: WoW subscriber numbers after each expansion ever since their overdumbing and streamlining during and post Wotlk are high spikes with huge active player drops after 1-3 months. That’s the usual time it takes for people to see most of the content and get bored of the low amount of between expansion content.

phys.7689:

my point is this, regardless of whether gw2 has gear treadmill or not, they need to answer the question of how they can incentivize content, and set up compelling goals.

True, this is a lot more difficult for a game where you aren’t required to go somewhere to stay on par.

phys.7689:

some of this is a war of perception, and while many of you will say its the player’s fault for having different expectations, i think its primarily the game’s fault for not communicating, or defining their overall reward paradigm. In general, gw2 doesnt feel very rewarding, not because they dont give you tons of crap, but because most of the crap they give you seems like junk. You dont particularly want it, you probably werent looking for it, and it doesnt usually bring you much closer to your goals.

Absolutely, GW2 is terrible in getting people to stay after hitting level 80. This has a multitude of reasons one of which is certainly the very open nature of the game and no clear “endgame” area. Something which is very confusing to new players of the game.

phys.7689:

the flipside of this, is because the game rewards are poorly utilized to incentivize play, many people are happy they can do what they want and get access to everything. so there are some advantages.

That flipside is quite a huge factor for many people though. The ability to play anything you like and still aquire/progress towards your goal (be it ascended, legendary, gold for a skin, etc.) is one of GW2 biggest USPs compared to many other MMOs.

phys.7689:

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Rhysati.4932:

mtpelion.4562:

Adding new tiers of gear (i.e. higher stats) is a trick used by game companies to fool people into thinking that they are being rewarded but what they are really doing is stealing money from you every month to play the same content over and over.

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts!

No, I’m afraid it is a trick used by game companies to keep people coming back. MMO business models require regular player logins. Not only does a populated world convince other people the game is thriving, but — whether they use a sub, sub plus store, “optional” sub plus store or just store — players who aren’t playing aren’t paying.

The human brain produces chemicals when faced with challenge and/or new experiences. Those chemicals produce an experience that we think of as fun. MMO content tends to lose its newness faster than developers can throw new stuff into the game. So, developers substitute anticipation of reward for the newness and challenge.

Consider the term “On farm.” This term essentially translates to, “We’ve beaten the challenge. Now, we are repeating the content we’ve mastered over and over ad nauseam until everyone gets what they need. Then, we can progress to the next all-too-short window of newness/challenge, which will be followed by more months of farming.”

Developers could just push out new content and challenges as often as is possible for them and the fun factor produced by the newness would be exactly the same, both in terms of quality and longevity. The thing is, that would mean players would leave when the content gets old, and that doesn’t work for the bottom line. Every time people leave, some of them don;t come back, Thus, carrots on sticks.

The other thing is, different companies use different reward structures. GW2 originally aimed at cosmetics as the endgame rewards. This attracted the people who dislike the repetitive nature of gear treadmill games. However, there are people who like stat chases (imo, it’s crap, but ommv).

So, what we have in GW2 is a compromise. There’s level progression, but not past 80. The idea that every player would have max stats by 80 was abandoned for the Ascended pursuit, but so far there’s no stated intent to go beyond Ascended. So, there’s not a new gear tier every (insert time period). Elite Specs and the HoT gear prefixes are technically horizontal progression, but are considered more powerful.

ANet is using compromise because while they want the game to appeal to players who like vertical progression, they also don’t want to lose the members of their core fan base who came to GW2 to escape the treadmill. As is often the case with compromise, people on both sides are not happy. However, just maybe enough people are in the middle to make the compromise worthwhile. Time will tell.

it isnt really a trick, its actually a necessity of the game design. What you are missing is people WANT to have a reason to beat it repeatedly. the design’s reward structures have to encourage people to play the game, or at very least, not make it feel less rewarding.

i am not saying that in every game they find that right balance of matching people’s desire to repeat with an appropriate amount of reward, but that goal isnt a trick, its actually an integral part of designing an enjoyable system.

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

Wrong game, wrong forum.

Try BDO, BnS, WoW, SWToR, FFXIV, Archage, insert any number of other mainstream MMOs currently on the market.

Rhysati.4932:

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts!

Sort of. This new content isn’t any more challenging if there was no gear grind and the new content was balanced for that. Basically, the company introduces more challenging content, but immediately introduces tools to reduce that challenge to the same level the previous most challenging content had when it was new.

So, it’s a trick to make you believe the new content is more challenging when it isn’t. It’s a trick to make you believe you are moving forward when in fact you are standing still. It’s a trick to make you glad for the fact that the developers keep constantly taking your accomplishments away from you and forcing you to redo them again.

Cyninja.2954:

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

Wrong game, wrong forum.

Try BDO, BnS, WoW, SWToR, FFXIV, Archage, insert any number of other mainstream MMOs currently on the market.

out of those games i have played, yeah i will agree that they overall do a way better job incentivizing their gameplay. Also note that bns, wow, and ffxiv are currently out performing gw2.

like i said, i dont think gear treadmill should be gw2 answer to this problem. But it is a problem that every game must deal with and solve.

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

based on what you have posted, i dont think the incentives are properly designed into the game for you. Your complaints about hot maps, and masteries shownthat you feel the incentives are in properly allocated, and you dont feel like the game incentivizes the proper playstyles and goals accurately.

its not a question of the number or magnitude of incentives, its about designing systems that make players feel like playing the game well (as it defines itself) is worthwhile.

Astralporing.1957:

Rhysati.4932:

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts!

Sort of. This new content isn’t any more challenging if there was no gear grind and the new content was balanced for that. Basically, the company introduces more challenging content, but immediately introduces tools to reduce that challenge to the same level the previous most challenging content had when it was new.

So, it’s a trick to make you believe the new content is more challenging when it isn’t. It’s a trick to make you believe you are moving forward when in fact you are standing still. It’s a trick to make you glad for the fact that the developers keep constantly taking your accomplishments away from you and forcing you to redo them again.

you are missing the point of a treadmill. a treadmill isnt designed to make you believe you are moving forward. It is designed so you can keep running. People actually want to beat those dungeons a bunch of times, so they need the game to give them a reason to do so.

also the reality is, most games with dungeon progression arent just increasing stats, they are also increasing difficulty, and complexity of the encounter.

actually one of the biggest flaws with the gear treadmill, as anet call it, is that it isnt really a treadmill. Its more like a track that they keep building on. This analogy shows its flaw in that people get left behind, and newbs end up with an insanely long road to get to the end, or catch up.

it has advantages and disadvantages

All I have to say I play this game cause I want to play the game,
not to mandatory grind to be able to play the game again.. and then on completely new gear on ALL my alts which cost a lot of time versus a little stronger enemies who complately deminish all the effort I spent in getting the new gear, while simultaneously destroying all fun playing all old content, due to me being the same amount more overpowered due to my new stats.

Gear mill = an illusion…

I like my legendaries, and the skins, I have also made a choice in equipping only 1 character in legendaries and keeping all my other 20+ characters in ascended….

I finished this game also on ranger first, so I did it on necro, mesmer, warrior, guardian, elementalist, thief and warrior once more….. and I made alts for WVW or completely different geared characters… WvW, condi or PvE, DPS , healers have different characters, I have only 4 or 5 characters with 2 or more armors, cause I also like alternative gameplay and other gamemodes…

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

All I have to say I play this game cause I want to play the game,
not to mandatory grind to be able to play the game again.. and then on completely new gear on ALL my alts which cost a lot of time versus a little stronger enemies who complately deminish all the effort I spent in getting the new gear, while simultaneously destroying all fun playing all old content, due to me being the same amount more overpowered due to my new stats.

Gear mill = an illusion…

I like my legendaries, and the skins, I have also made a choice in equipping only 1 character in legendaries and keeping all my other 20+ characters in ascended….

I finished this game also on ranger first, so I did it on necro, mesmer, warrior, guardian, elementalist, thief and warrior once more….. and I made alts for WVW or completely different geared characters… WvW, condi or PvE, DPS , healers have different characters, I have only 4 or 5 characters with 2 or more armors, cause I also like alternative gameplay and other gamemodes…

yeah, so the question becomes, how to better make doing things in the game feel more purposeful, without creating the type of problems that gear or power upgrades create.

phys.7689:

Astralporing.1957:

Rhysati.4932:

Ahh, I see! So it’s a trick used by game companies to add new challenging content that rewards your efforts!

Sort of. This new content isn’t any more challenging if there was no gear grind and the new content was balanced for that. Basically, the company introduces more challenging content, but immediately introduces tools to reduce that challenge to the same level the previous most challenging content had when it was new.

So, it’s a trick to make you believe the new content is more challenging when it isn’t. It’s a trick to make you believe you are moving forward when in fact you are standing still. It’s a trick to make you glad for the fact that the developers keep constantly taking your accomplishments away from you and forcing you to redo them again.

you are missing the point of a treadmill. a treadmill isnt designed to make you believe you are moving forward. It is designed so you can keep running. People actually want to beat those dungeons a bunch of times, so they need the game to give them a reason to do so.

also the reality is, most games with dungeon progression arent just increasing stats, they are also increasing difficulty, and complexity of the encounter.

actually one of the biggest flaws with the gear treadmill, as anet call it, is that it isnt really a treadmill. Its more like a track that they keep building on. This analogy shows its flaw in that people get left behind, and newbs end up with an insanely long road to get to the end, or catch up.

it has advantages and disadvantages

Not to mention it’s other big disadvantages which are
1) the trivialization of old content to the point that eventually any player can solo old raids and dungeons
2) emptying out old maps so that leveling becomes the ultimate solo play in a multi player game (scaling in this game can only handle so much. Even current level 80s are overpowered for the low level maps. A gear treadmill would make level 80s in old maps even stronger, or it would lead to endless rounds of trying to rescale the level 80s back down and invalidate their work in getting better and better stats).
3) the abandonment of alts due to the need to repeatedly regear each one with each turn of the treadmill

I totally agree with you and I am on the verge of quitting because of this reason.

All you do in this game is collect crafting mats and lame skins. I don’t understand why skins are the replacement of the more traditional gear grind. Itemization is IMO extremely lacking and there is almost no chance to drop something useful. I am forced in leveling crafting to 500 so I can make weapons that drop leafs on the ground.

Sigh. I guess this game is not for me.

I think the mastery system should expand on offering class combat skills. We have too few skills at the moment to use and I would love to grind and grind and grind to have more choice in combat skills. Why do I think this will work? I think combat skills are similar to gear in that they are linked with being powerful and becoming more powerful when acquiring more combat skills. If you want to take this idea to the next level make it possible for us to customize the looks of the combat skills. That is a true Fashion Wars. Customizing the looks of the combat skills, the colors, the moves etc. I don’t want to be a fashion designer I want to be a powerful soldier.

Just an idea though and only my opinion your opinions may vary and I understand that your opinions are just as valid as my opinion.

Love this topic btw. I really think this is the CORE problem with GW2. I also think that this is the CORE problem in why the game is not more popular. My God, what a beautiful game it is. The world, the combat, the music, almost everything…. except the Fashion Designer-ish focus and lack of proper itemization.

Dindin.2378:

I think the mastery system should expand on offering class combat skills. We have too few skills at the moment to use and I would love to grind and grind and grind to have more choice in combat skills. Why do I think this will work? I think combat skills are similar to gear in that they are linked with being powerful and becoming more powerful when acquiring more combat skills. If you want to take this idea to the next level make it possible for us to customize the looks of the combat skills. That is a true Fashion Wars. Customizing the looks of the combat skills, the colors, the moves etc. I don’t want to be a fashion designer I want to be a powerful soldier.

Just an idea though and only my opinion your opinions may vary and I understand that your opinions are just as valid as my opinion.

I’ll agree to this somewhat. I would love it if we could work toward more utility skills. One thing I loved about guild wars was there was such customization of your skill bar.

I would love to have more diverse skills or even skills that work in different ways like we had in GW1.

If we had the chance to work for different skills it would not only give us something to do at endgame, it would make builds and our characters more interesting.

phys.7689:

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

based on what you have posted, i dont think the incentives are properly designed into the game for you. Your complaints about hot maps, and masteries shownthat you feel the incentives are in properly allocated, and you dont feel like the game incentivizes the proper playstyles and goals accurately.

its not a question of the number or magnitude of incentives, its about designing systems that make players feel like playing the game well (as it defines itself) is worthwhile.

My complaints have nothing to do with incentives.