Guild Wars 2

Ryou.2398:

Sly.9518:

There was Tocxicity and abuse before any meters ever existed and it was worse since it was based on arbitrary things, so prove that Dps meters brought Toxicity and Hostility into the game, you can’t because t was already here. So ty to say they cause it all you want it is not true.

I do not know I have noticed more since I rejoined the game your argument can easily be switched around and we can ask you to disapprove it.

You can’t really because my argument is that’s toxicity and hostility existed long before dps meters, this is a known fact documented on these forums ever since the game launched /GG.

Dps meters are a tool that provide a justification, it’s not toxicity if it reflects the actual reason someone is removed from a group or not. Players give consent once they join groups using dps meters.

Or would rather be kicked from a. Group because you have only 2k AP or 2 Li or any other arbitrary reason vs because you couldn’t pull your weight in a group

Asur.9178:

Ryou.2398:

And people like you make me laugh, STATE YOUR REQUIRENMENTS FOR YOUR GROUPS BEFORE YOU INVITE ANYONE!!!! How hard is it to do that? It is your responsibility to state these things if you do not like people going off your meta attitude.

And I never did go off your recommendation lol you have no idea who I am or what I do in the game besides one forum post talking a little about the meta, your just upset because I never agreed with you, perhaps you should grow from it like an adult.

The irony here is your the one whining I am simply stating people may not want to play your way for those reasons, and you completely over reacted which is very telling.

I like the assumptions you made about me here. Good job!

Same to you good job!

Sly.9518:

Ryou.2398:

Sly.9518:

There was Tocxicity and abuse before any meters ever existed and it was worse since it was based on arbitrary things, so prove that Dps meters brought Toxicity and Hostility into the game, you can’t because t was already here. So ty to say they cause it all you want it is not true.

I do not know I have noticed more since I rejoined the game your argument can easily be switched around and we can ask you to disapprove it.

You can’t really because my argument is that’s toxicity and hostility existed long before dps meters, this is a known fact documented on these forums ever since the game launched /GG.

as i said above – a strawman argument, the point is meters is ANOTHER source of hostility not the root of all things hostile.

ps do you remember hostility in board based RPG? or early wow before raids and meters – because there wasn’t.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Remove the meters and learn to play well without its crutches and you remove a source of hostility.

I wouldn’t be so certain about that, sadly. Some people will look for any reason to be hostile to other people and taking away meters would give some people reason to be hostile still or even more than they already were. Essentially nobody wins.

Honestly the best thing to do with regards to dealing with hostility is to block the people who are hostile to you and move on.

I play LOTR, ESO and EVE and i do not see any toxicity re meter performance. However Raids and meters are the poisonous combination, its the type of gameplay it promotes where ‘performance’ is seen by many as being more important than great gameplay. Change design of raids to not be tuned on dps performance and you remove the need for meters. At the very least make meters private so you cant see others, this would be a proper middle ground.

Put it this way, i can think of hardly any games played for pleasure in real life, on boards or online where people are ‘kicked’ because of a metric, why is it people think its acceptable in raiding?

e.g :

A 4 way game of CIV
A 4 way game of golf
an RPG board game
A team cyclicing race
A 5 man instance that is not tightly tuned

it goes on and on and on

being rutheless and ‘mean’ to others or booting them is not nessassary to have fun in all the above, and yet ‘raiding’ seems to justify such behavior, and thats fed with meters – you have to ask yourself why that is.

I’m with you.

But, I have a different solution: make the LFG screen have a checkbox for gear-checkers.

(Sorry, I didn’t read the whole thread, if someone already suggested this.)

Again you consent if you join groups that use meters, don’t want to be monitored? Don’t join groups using meters pretty simple you are in complete control, and again dps meters a re tool that show dps it doesn’t create hostility people do, they would be toxic without meters, this was proven already,

And now you are saying change Raids, why it met its target audience and exceeded expectations, bahahah if you don’t like the gameplay you probably weren’t the target audience for Raids

Sly.9518:

Again you consent if you join groups that use meters, don’t want to be monitored? Don’t join groups using meters pretty simple you are in complete control, and again dps meters a re tool that show dps it doesn’t create hostility people do, they would be toxic without meters, this was proven already,

And now you are saying change Raids, why it met its target audience and exceeded expectations, bahahah if you don’t like the gameplay you probably weren’t the target audience for Raids

Well that’s not really how it works is it, all raids have these people with meters and you know it.

But a comprimise, have meters for yourself, why such a need to measure other people?

Do you need metrics to have a great four balls golf game?
Do you need metrics to have a great 5 man instance run?
Do you need metrics to enjoy a World boss?
Do you need metrics for just about any other online game?
Do you need metrics on others on a raid thats on farm?
So why such a meed for raids, is it perchance because actually the meta game is one upmanship on meters?

vesica tempestas.1563:

Sly.9518:

Again you consent if you join groups that use meters, don’t want to be monitored? Don’t join groups using meters pretty simple you are in complete control, and again dps meters a re tool that show dps it doesn’t create hostility people do, they would be toxic without meters, this was proven already,

And now you are saying change Raids, why it met its target audience and exceeded expectations, bahahah if you don’t like the gameplay you probably weren’t the target audience for Raids

Well that’s not really how it works is it, all raids have these people with meters and you know it.

But a comprimise, have meters for yourself, why such a need to measure other people?

Do you need metrics to have a great four balls golf game?
Do you need metrics to have a great 5 man instance run?
Do you need metrics to enjoy a World boss?
Do you need metrics for just about any other online game?
So why such a meed for raids, is it perchance because actually the meta game is one upmanship on meters?

Again it is clear you were never the target audience for Raids, yet you want Raids to be changed because you don’t fit into the target audience, again you don’t have to group with the people running dps meters, you can even ask the group leader if they are even using Meters in the group before joining. Oh no but that’s logic.

vesica tempestas.1563:

I play LOTR, ESO and EVE and i do not see any toxicity re meter performance.

I bet you also don’t see the GW2 level of toxicity with regard to achievement points or whatever else there. Hence, your argument is invalid.

Kiza.5630:

Goldfox.5729:

I kill all Raid bosses on a weekly basis and I do T4 Fractals maybe every day of the week.

But most likely with ppl you know. And T4 fractals don’t necessarily attract ppl with vastly different player skills.

Pickup group consisting if Mr I-know-everything who hasn’t found a regular group because of his attitude and a bunch of inexperienced ppl joined from the LFG trying to tackle something difficult. That’s where you find hostility. This scenario is also universal throughout all games.

I have never had such a thing like a static group that I can get easy kills with every week. I am a guild leader, and we don’t raid yet. I have over 100 boss kills simply because some gracious commanders let me join their group even though I had nothing to show them that I could raid, yet I proved them that I could simply by practicing my profession hard. Not all raiders are bad, or elitist, or toxic; and sure I have encountered some, but there’s more good than bad. Start small and gradually climb the ladder.

Aslong as you are dedicated, and brave to walk through the shadow, you will always find light at the end of your path.

I think raids in general is making the game most hostile. Though DPS benchmarks and healing benchmarks and def / hp benchmarks are never a helpful thing for a positive community.

Sly.9518:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Sly.9518:

Again you consent if you join groups that use meters, don’t want to be monitored? Don’t join groups using meters pretty simple you are in complete control, and again dps meters a re tool that show dps it doesn’t create hostility people do, they would be toxic without meters, this was proven already,

And now you are saying change Raids, why it met its target audience and exceeded expectations, bahahah if you don’t like the gameplay you probably weren’t the target audience for Raids

Well that’s not really how it works is it, all raids have these people with meters and you know it.

But a comprimise, have meters for yourself, why such a need to measure other people?

Do you need metrics to have a great four balls golf game?
Do you need metrics to have a great 5 man instance run?
Do you need metrics to enjoy a World boss?
Do you need metrics for just about any other online game?
So why such a meed for raids, is it perchance because actually the meta game is one upmanship on meters?

Again it is clear you were never the target audience for Raids, yet you want Raids to be changed because you don’t fit into the target audience, again you don’t have to group with the people running dps meters, you can even ask the group leader if they are even using Meters in the group before joining. Oh no but that’s logic.

I don’t want to raid, i have however spent about 15k hours raiding I am indeed not the target audience but thank you for reminding me? I would however raid if the environment was different. As for ‘asking’, the point is when meters are abused not when they are used well, this has nothing to do with the person asking to join.

Different tact, Why not have meters measure yourself only, you should be able to trust your team mates to learn right? so why do you need to measure others?

Great leaders lead, they don’t micromanage

It has everything to do with it, players say they don’t want to be monitored by dps meters they have all the power to make sure it doesn’t happen, pretty simple really before joining a group they can ask if the group is using Dps meters to avoid grouping with people and they won’t be monitored how can you not understand that?

which has nothing to do with it, we are talking about people who are in such a raid, yes people who don’t join such raids wont be affected, thats moot.

your arguement of ‘well dont play’ simply avoids the issue and topic under discussion.

Those ppl that have been reported for missuses of the meters …. send/replace them with ‘’wrong data’’ or some numbers/attack dont show up or the ‘’combat log’’ has bugs after the 2nd boss or 3rd NPC pack or when the boss has between 58-87% hp :P

Woof.8246:

Those ppl that have been reported for missuses of the meters ….

Let’s be real though: reporting doesn’t really do anything. It hasn’t for me at least and as a result I just stop reporting anything. :\

Maybe other people have better luck. I dunno.

vesica tempestas.1563:

which has nothing to do with it, we are talking about people who are in such a raid, yes people who don’t join such raids wont be affected, thats moot.

your arguement of ‘well dont play’ simply avoids the issue and topic under discussion.

If they joined the group then they have their consent to being monitored by dps meters again logic

Sly.9518:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Sly.9518:

Again you consent if you join groups that use meters, don’t want to be monitored? Don’t join groups using meters pretty simple you are in complete control, and again dps meters a re tool that show dps it doesn’t create hostility people do, they would be toxic without meters, this was proven already,

And now you are saying change Raids, why it met its target audience and exceeded expectations, bahahah if you don’t like the gameplay you probably weren’t the target audience for Raids

Well that’s not really how it works is it, all raids have these people with meters and you know it.

But a comprimise, have meters for yourself, why such a need to measure other people?

Do you need metrics to have a great four balls golf game?
Do you need metrics to have a great 5 man instance run?
Do you need metrics to enjoy a World boss?
Do you need metrics for just about any other online game?
So why such a meed for raids, is it perchance because actually the meta game is one upmanship on meters?

Again it is clear you were never the target audience for Raids, yet you want Raids to be changed because you don’t fit into the target audience, again you don’t have to group with the people running dps meters, you can even ask the group leader if they are even using Meters in the group before joining. Oh no but that’s logic.

asking if they run meters would meant, you know about them.. until this post..i never knew people used them..since i’m not into raids. so someone could have been using one in any group i ever joined…without my knowledge..plus they could still lie..we should start making tools that send those tools fake stats..just in-case people are running them..

I find it very hard to believe that any sizable amount of players don’t know dps meters exist since they have been a hot topic on the forums and on Reddit, and yes you can ask it’s a completely viable option and you can always start your own group if you don’t trust other people at their word, and if you do get kicked you can alaways ask why to see if it’s a legit reason but hey colplainnall you want there are multiple viable options available if you don’t use them to get around not grouping with people using meters that’s on you and doesn’t impact me in the slightest.

Again it’s just the logical thing

And again what you are asking is a very dishonest thing because combat data doesn’t belong to any one player and isn’t private data, it is public information in the game, and you trying to conceal that is very dishonest and toxic since you would be deceiving the players you grouped up with on good faith.

Sly.9518:

I find it very hard to believe that any sizable amount of players don’t know dps meters exist since they have been a hot topic on the forums and on Reddit, and yes you can ask it’s a completely viable option and you can always start your own group if you don’t trust other people at their word, and if you do get kicked you can alaways ask why to see if it’s a legit reason but hey colplainnall you want there are multiple viable options available if you don’t use them to get around not grouping with people using meters that’s on you and doesn’t impact me in the slightest.

Again it’s just the logical thing

And again what you are asking is a very dishonest thing because combat data doesn’t belong to any one player and isn’t private data, it is public information in the game, and you trying to conceal that is very dishonest and toxic since you would be deceiving the players you grouped up with on good faith.

i don’t use reddit..and the only forum i use is this one..it’s just a game to me..not my life. no need to go all over the net chatting about my gws 2 characters..lol..if you do that’s ok..but my stats and builds are my business..my point is if they make tools to get your dps info..you can make tools to block or fake it..lol one makes a tool to read it another makes a tool to fake the data the other tool reads..lol..thats how the net works..

Sly.9518:

Again it was plastered in multiple sub forums on this Forum site. It wasn’t some secret being kept…

lol still how does that change the fact " i didn’t know about them" and if i didn’t ..how many others may not…seems like a huge flaw into your logic of “you can just ask them if they are running one”..was the point..lol

I have agree with the point that DPS meters aren’t the root cause, just the most recent way and possibly an objective way for those creating the hostility, to discriminate anybody who isn’t “leet” players, again in the mind of the openly hostile.

Use to be professions builds, AP, badges, game mode specific currency, whatever someone thinks is an indicator of a hardcore player from filthy casuals for particular game modes.

One of my first experiences with fractals, which I hadn’t bothered with for 4 years, was I started a LFG stating newbie looking to do some low level fractals was a player who proceeded to lecture me about gear and the fact I wasn’t the elite spec version of my professional and started guessing how my gear was likely specced wrong. Dude, I want to do a few low level fractals, not make a play style choice.

You just have to ignore these guys and find those who accept you for what you are playing. As long as you try to pull your own weight rather than sit in a corner and let everybody actually carry you rather than complaining that your DPS isn’t “acceptable” those kind of players should accept you. But constructive criticism is welcomed rather than the blind devotion to the qT or metabattle current spec as the one true way.

virus.4370:

Sly.9518:

Again it was plastered in multiple sub forums on this Forum site. It wasn’t some secret being kept…

lol still how does that change the fact " i didn’t know about them" and if i didn’t ..how many others may not…seems like a huge flaw into your logic of “you can just ask them if they are running one”..was the point..lol

You can ask if they are running them it’s pretty simple it’s your lack of trusting people to tell the truth holding you back and again you would rather deceive players that you want to group up with and so on which is more toxic. But hey what do I know at least most players running dps meters are upfront and truthful about it since it’s not against TOS, but a quite a few players are discriminating against them in this thread alone again toxicity and it’s not coming from players wanting to use Dps meters….. hmmm interesting

Jericento.3165:

I understand that Anet needs to create demanding, challenging end-game content that will appeal to the die-hard-forever set; but with that comes a need to mediate their own system.

Do they need to? I don’t agree. Before Raids were added, it looked like GW2 was doing fine.

I love dps meters. Play how you want sure, if you want to press buttons the way you want to press them and wear whatever sub-par gear you fancy, great. But don’t join a raid group and waste everyone’s time. Here’s a thought: Learn your rotation, gear for your role, and do your job. Before dps meters, I might have had to slog through several bosses with people like the op weighing me down. Now I can just kick and get someone else, love it.

CptAurellian.9537:

On the contrary, ANet’s decision to allow (party-wide) meters was a great one. Now we finally have some precise data to locate problems. Toxic people would have been toxic anyway, as the history of this game clearly shows.

This. The end.

I have been kicked from soooo many raid groups, usually given “sorry no dps”. My response? “ok”
not “OMFG YU ELITIST SCUM?”
Doesn’t matter what camp, what issue, what technology involved whatever… Toxic players will find a way to be toxic.

Toxic player with dps meter: toxic
Nice player with dps meter: not toxic

Anet banned gear viewing, exact same problem, i.e fuel for toxic behavior. If you offer a tool that ranks people based on a couple of stats then that is fuel for abuse. Bad tools generate additional bad behavior. Check out WOW, that’s where raids are heading in GW2, toxic ugly self centered playing where being no 1 in a meter is important – is the cost really worth it?

- Toxic player with dps meter: toxic
- Nice player with dps meter: not toxic
- Some additional players who are not usually toxic peer pressured by a ranking system to be toxic. This is the reality of human behavior, not just that there are toxic humans and non toxic humans.

Sly.9518:

Again it is clear you were never the target audience for Raids, yet you want Raids to be changed because you don’t fit into the target audience, again you don’t have to group with the people running dps meters, you can even ask the group leader if they are even using Meters in the group before joining. Oh no but that’s logic.

If there is a “target audience” for raids, then why don’t they have a separate mastery track?

vesica tempestas.1563:

Put it this way, i can think of hardly any games played for pleasure in real life, on boards or online where people are ‘kicked’ because of a metric, why is it people think its acceptable in raiding?

e.g :

A 4 way game of CIV
A 4 way game of golf
an RPG board game
A team cyclicing race
A 5 man instance that is not tightly tuned

it goes on and on and on

being rutheless and ‘mean’ to others or booting them is not nessassary to have fun in all the above, and yet ‘raiding’ seems to justify such behavior, and thats fed with meters – you have to ask yourself why that is.

People were being kicked from 5 man dungeon content in gw2 long before Anet loosened restrictions on meters. They were also being excluded from even participating in many groups.

Keep in mind that part of the appeal of raids is the rewards. If a bicycling team is going for a completion reward that required everyone be able to manage 100 miles in the time allotment, you can be sure that people holding the team back would be replaced, or, more likely, not allowed to join the team in the first place….Ten year old Susie Susie is unlikely to be accepted onto a team planning on participating in the Tour de France.

Daddicus.6128:

Sly.9518:

Again it is clear you were never the target audience for Raids, yet you want Raids to be changed because you don’t fit into the target audience, again you don’t have to group with the people running dps meters, you can even ask the group leader if they are even using Meters in the group before joining. Oh no but that’s logic.

If there is a “target audience” for raids, then why don’t they have a separate mastery track?

Let’s take a look here.

The Target Audience:
From a Q&A with Colin

Q: “Traditionally, raid content has involved significant amount of planning and coordination for players to complete. How do you balance the needs of the most dedicated players with the needs of more casual players? Are these raids aimed at a small percentage of the player base?”

Colin:“These raids are absolutely content that involves a significant amount of planning and coordination to overcome them. That is the goal; that’s who the target audience for this content is. We have a massive amount of content in this expansion and already in Guild Wars 2 as well as through our live strategy that we’ll be continuing to add for players looking for other numerous experiences. Literally Guild Wars 2 is a series of games within a giant world. Raids are aimed directly at the group of players who are looking for a significant amount of planning and coordination to overcome and defeat challenges. We expect that a large amount of the Guild Wars 2 player base is going to be excited about raiding; it’s something our players have been asking about for a while now. And although whenever a new raid wing gets released you may only see a subset of our player base beat it initially, over time the strategies of how to defeat that raid will perpetuate across the community and will become more approachable as more players learn how to overcome and defeat it. And so, naturally when a new raid comes out I think there will be a race for players to learn the strategies and defeat it and there’ll be very few people who defeat it initially, and over time more and more people will learn how to defeat them and find out new strategies for how to overcome them. Because we are removing so many barriers to entry that traditional raiding has, we believe that we will actually get a much larger group of players who can play them because it’s more approachable for everyone, even though it is extremely challenging.”

This is from the Raid announcement to confirm what they wanted Raids to be.

" difficult challenges that will require your raiding team to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed."

The Mastery track:

“Raids will also tie into our new, advanced Mastery system of progression. We’ll be introducing new Mastery tracks and abilities that will be closely tied to progressing though raids, "

And There is a specific Mastery line for Raids who would have though

Need anything more?

Daddicus.6128:

Sly.9518:

Again it is clear you were never the target audience for Raids, yet you want Raids to be changed because you don’t fit into the target audience, again you don’t have to group with the people running dps meters, you can even ask the group leader if they are even using Meters in the group before joining. Oh no but that’s logic.

If there is a “target audience” for raids, then why don’t they have a separate mastery track?

Because ANet did not plan Masteries with the idea that once all tracks had been maxed, XP would revert to a Spirit Shard reward on post-cap tick. They added that later, in response to player complaints, and once again either did not consider the ramifications for non-completionists, or because solutions that would either split Raid masteries from HOT ones — or allow XP to be allocated to a post-cap tick even if one had not finished all Mastery tracks were not trivial.

@ thread

Just what is hostility? Is it kicking people who join a group knowing they don’t meet the expectations of the people who started that group? Is it establishing requirements in the first place? Or is hostility rudeness and the use of pejoratives when telling people why they’re not welcome — or striking out at people who set requirements because someone thinks — and says — that that makes them horrible people?

My personal take is that setting and enforcing a requirement is neither hostile nor “toxic” (whatever that means). The whole point behind being able to join a group which has no requirements is to be able to complete content as one wants to. Well, the people who set requirements are doing that very thing.

Would it be nice if all groups just took everyone with no questions asked? Sure. It would also be nice if people who post requirements did not have to deal with people joining them and ignoring those requirements. Owning the game entitles one to attempt content. It does not mean others must accommodate you in doing so.

And to bring this back around to the topic, the meter is not at fault. The issues have been around long before the meter, and would not go away were the meter disallowed. The solution is obvious — if you don’t like the meter and the so-called elitist behavior you say it fosters, do what the so-called elitists do — start your own group. Say, “No meters, all welcome”. Then if people join and start talking meters, kick them. Why don’t people do this? It’s not convenient to do so.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Daddicus.6128:

Sly.9518:

Again it is clear you were never the target audience for Raids, yet you want Raids to be changed because you don’t fit into the target audience, again you don’t have to group with the people running dps meters, you can even ask the group leader if they are even using Meters in the group before joining. Oh no but that’s logic.

If there is a “target audience” for raids, then why don’t they have a separate mastery track?

Because ANet did not plan Masteries with the idea that once all tracks had been maxed, XP would revert to a Spirit Shard reward on post-cap tick. They added that later, in response to player complaints, and once again either did not consider the ramifications for non-completionists, or because solutions that would either split Raid masteries from HOT ones — or allow XP to be allocated to a post-cap tick even if one had not finished all Mastery tracks were not trivial.

@ thread

Just what is hostility? Is it kicking people who join a group knowing they don’t meet the expectations of the people who started that group? Is it establishing requirements in the first place? Or is hostility rudeness and the use of pejoratives when telling people why they’re not welcome — or striking out at people who set requirements because someone thinks — and says — that that makes them horrible people?

My personal take is that setting and enforcing a requirement is neither hostile nor “toxic” (whatever that means). The whole point behind being able to join a group which has no requirements is to be able to complete content as one wants to. Well, the people who set requirements are doing that very thing.

Would it be nice if all groups just took everyone with no questions asked? Sure. It would also be nice if people who post requirements did not have to deal with people joining them and ignoring those requirements. Owning the game entitles one to attempt content. It does not mean others must accommodate you in doing so.

And to bring this back around to the topic, the meter is not at fault. The issues have been around long before the meter, and would not go away were the meter disallowed. The solution is obvious — if you don’t like the meter and the so-called elitist behavior you say it fosters, do what the so-called elitists do — start your own group. Say, “No meters, all welcome”. Then if people join and start talking meters, kick them. Why don’t people do this? It’s not convenient to do so.

Tons of people do not state the requirements though and get annoyed with peoples builds, what people need to state is viable builds but do not have to be meta if they are interested in that and so on.

people are reading too much into the tool. At the end of the day, it’s a tool. A hammer, a saw, a device, a mechanism, it doesn’t do more than tell you how good your dps is, how good your buff upkeep is, etc.
It just shows the number.
The problem is people’s attitude, and if people’s attitude are bad, they are bad, the presence of a mechanism won’t make them more bad than they already were. The people who are toxic now, were already toxic before the meters were allowed.

We need to adress the problem of society, not the tools.
Otherwise the hammers will get banned and the good people can’t build houses anymore

When u realize u outdps half the group including temps and wars on a chrono its a nice sign to leave the group instead of waisting an hour. When bgdm (buffs) arcdps (dps) are combined it basically illustrates whos actually just leeching from the group. Calling a tempest out on his 7k dps isnt toxic, just like calling a chrono out on lack of quickness, people are expected to at least know their classes otherwise the are straight up leeching and should either try harder or get kicked.

DPS meters are bad if they are not used other then on yourself.

It makes the person with the dps meter a judge jury and often executioner… I was kicked for ressing ppl in a vg run, no problem with aggro, but I had a low DPS on my condi ranger cause I was pickup up for scrubs… And who get’s kicked? Me… Cause the dmg was low…

I do not need to be in idiot parties with ppl who drop like flies and nobody to res downed cause they fear for kicks… I got a whisper 40 minutes later, they disbanded cause noone was prepared to res… Cause the only person who did was kicked… well GG!

If you use DPS meters, use ’m as a tool. To improve. Low DPS mean nothing if you cannot explain where it comes from, if you know, you might be able to change it.
If someone only autoattacks yes you can ask to change or leave, but if someone has spikes of good DPS with down times allways check why.

Oh and whats good DPS? Good DPS gets the job done -together-. It’s not standing robotically typing your rotation and leaving the group to fend for themselves, that’s leeching.

Ashen.2907:

Ten year old Susie Susie is unlikely to be accepted onto a team planning on participating in the Tour de France.

True but Susie may be a above average intelligent kid , or even a genius making Taimi look like a skritt, and she might get a grandmaster blindfold chess title at 10 as well… Luckily she does not have to cycle to get through raids, just think and push a few buttons in the right order, preferably while reacting on a visual stimulus…

Monkeys and dogs have been trained to do sequential tasks, reacting on triggers… even in outer space… maybe not in record time at first glance , but they’ll get it after decent reward and some practice. We will likely never go to space, but the other thing should be achievable…

Just another perspective…

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Ashen.2907:

Ten year old Susie Susie is unlikely to be accepted onto a team planning on participating in the Tour de France.

True but Susie may be a above average intelligent kid , or even a genius making Taimi look like a skritt, and she might get a grandmaster blindfold chess title at 10 as well… Luckily she does not have to cycle to get through raids, just think and push a few buttons in the right order, preferably while reacting on a visual stimulus…

Monkeys and dogs have been trained to do sequential tasks, reacting on triggers… even in outer space… maybe not in record time at first glance , but they’ll get it after decent reward and some practice. We will likely never go to space, but the other thing should be achievable…

Just another perspective…

Or you put way to much stock into kids, kids are kids regardless of how much smarter in certain areas they may be.

Ryou.2398:

Tons of people do not state the requirements though and get annoyed with peoples builds, what people need to state is viable builds but do not have to be meta if they are interested in that and so on.

I completely agree that more communication is better, and that people who assume they don’t have to post requirements even though they have them deserve what they get.

You could argue that not having metrics which help you analyse what’s going on is encouraging bad behavior.
At least in raids I think it’s a good thing. Raids are a combination of proper execution of mechanics while doing as much damage as possible to the boss thingy. The duality of needing to execute mechanics and your damage rotation properly makes it challenging. Otherwise it would be a 10 man jumping puzzle.

If you want to analyse why you are not beating an encounter you can pretty much plainly see if mechanics are an issue, but dps is way more subtle. DPS meters are a great tool to better your dps and to look where’s room for improval. As with all tools it can be abused but the people who use the tool to bully others didn’t really need the tool for that in the first place.

But I agree with the point, that people should clearly state what they are looking for in the lfg.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

DPS meters are bad if they are not used other then on yourself.

It makes the person with the dps meter a judge jury and often executioner… I was kicked for ressing ppl in a vg run, no problem with aggro, but I had a low DPS on my condi ranger cause I was pickup up for scrubs… And who get’s kicked? Me… Cause the dmg was low…

I do not need to be in idiot parties with ppl who drop like flies and nobody to res downed cause they fear for kicks… I got a whisper 40 minutes later, they disbanded cause noone was prepared to res… Cause the only person who did was kicked… well GG!

then your party had a bad commander, not a bad dps meter, they should’ve kicked the people who were constantly downing. However, you too, should’ve at one point said “if you keep dowining I’m not ressing you anymore”.
The DPS meter is not at fault in your story, you, the commander, and the downing people were all equally at fault. And if brutal honesty, that group wasn’t gonna kill VG, so might as well have left on your own at that point

I’ll try to set some baseline for myself.

What are the factors that come into play when I try to estimate the impact of dps-meters on the game?

- What is my goal when I play the game?

This depends on my mood or my current goals. When I join a Tequatl event, I just want to have fun. I don’t do it for the weapon hoard, I just like hanging out there, and this means being on the map 25 minutes before he spawns and then taking him down. I don’t mind just standing there chatting for that time, or going through the achievements list to see what I can do next. Joining an organized Triple Trouble event is similar, and takes more time. At these things, I don’t care how much dps anyone deals, just join and learn the mechanics and listen to the commanders and have fun.

When I do a fractal for an achievement, or for other rewards, it’s different. I want to get it done in an efficient way. Most of them you can do without perfection. The Pareto principle works here, as in so many other areas. If you have one or two people who know their kitten, it’s fine. There are some fractals though that require everybody to know what he/she is doing. And as far as I can tell, that goes for raids as well.

- How do my actions affect others?

Someone here said that requiring a dps meter affects the players in a negative way. Guess what, being ignorant does the same. It does affect your team if you come to a party that wants to get stuff done without being well-prepared. Even if your cyclists team consists of hobbyists, you cannot/shouldn’t join a team that’s cycling faster than you. In cyclist events, there are usually different teams advertised. They state their average speed and the distance. For example, there’s a team that does 25km/h average, and there’s a team that does 30km/h. You don’t join the fast team if you cannot keep up with them. Nobody would call it toxic behaviour if you joined the fast team and can’t do the 30km/h average and they asked you to switch over to the slower team or get left behind. You don’t expect them to cycle slower because you pretended to fit in. Your lower performance would affect the team negatively. There might be even greater rewards for the specialists team at the end of the race, as it it for higher tier fractals, and raids.

In the cyclists example it is obvious who can’t keep up with the others, in sports, it’s usually quite obvious how people perform. You don’t need a speed meter to see who can’t keep up. And in almost all sports, you pick your group. You start at the bottom and work your way up if you can and want. You can of course stay in the hobbyist league, and that’s totally fine. Enjoy your beer in the breaks of the game. If you are good and want to be part of the winning team, playing at higher levels, get better rewards, you don’t choose to join a pro team. You can’t just join a professional team. They choose you, and they decide how they measure if you are a good fit. In these circles, measuring performance is a given, because everybody is eager to become better at what they are doing.

Yes, you paid for the game and its content. But we all pay for the stadiums and the pro teams in sports, no matter if you even watch them playing or like them. They paid for the Open World content too, even if they only play PvP or do raids. Raids and high tier fractals are made for meta, it’s not elitism. If you can pick up random people and do raids, go ahead and do so. Anet wanted it to be the way it is. Only thing I disagree with is that this content is required to get legendary stuff, or to max your masteries.

So, look at what your goals are and how your actions affect others. Don’t call people toxic just because they don’t want to have a cyclist in their 30km/h team that can only do 25km/h. If you join them anyway, you spoil their experience, and they only have so much freetime per week to cycle.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Anet banned gear viewing, exact same problem, i.e fuel for toxic behavior. If you offer a tool that ranks people based on a couple of stats then that is fuel for abuse.

The thing is, those tools can validate if someone is experienced. And that’s all that is to it. It’s not about some umimportant stats. By the time you are ready for raids or high level fractals, you do have all ascended stuff and you learned which stats and runes work best to deal with the content. If you run around like a hippie with random stats and weapons that just suck for your class, it clearly shows you are not experienced or have no grasp of game mechanics, or just don’t like doing high tier content or you just don’t care (at which point, I wonder why you suddenly want to raid). All of these options are perfectly fine. Good armor, runes, weapons, sigils and rotations are necessary to succeed in raids and high tier fractals, and taking a look at them is telling a lot about a player’s ability to perform in that content. They can still suck though, and that’s where the performance-meter comes into play.

In a fractal pick up group you quickly notice how it works out. When I am lucky and there is no slacker, everybody stays in the group after the fractal, and we just do more fractals together. Without saying a single word, everybody knows. It’s not that everybody is perfect, but you see that everybody did their homework. Mistakes are no problem, just like in sports teams. Even pro athletes make mistakes.

In a group that has one or two slackers, everybody leaves after the advertised fractal. If you lose one member and the same fractal became much harder with the replacement, you know you got a slacker. You also know what the other guy contributed. You don’t need any other tools than your eyes. Gear showing and dps-meter might just save you the time and pain to figure out without them.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Does ArenaNet allow gear check? I thought they didn’t, but I know little about DPS meters.

Not, it is not allowed but it is not like there are any consequences even if you report the offender.

As far as dps meters goes, i learned one thing so far: just roll your golem rotation, do not rez/do not help teammates, ignore fight mechanics as much as possible, do not take cannon/mushroom eater etc. jobs, all for the sake of dps. Because if you don’t pull the golem numbers, you will get kicked. The raid groups, especially pugs, are that blinds.

I’d prefer to receive a kick based on an accurate display of my underperformance rather than based on a guess made by the squad leader or anyone else in love with pointing fingers at anyone but themselves.
Those with the lowest amount of LI or AP should also be happy about said addition to the game. They used to received all the blame most of the time. People love and have always loved playing the blame game.
Players have always been blamed for underperforming with boons or healing and even DPS when they were too busy with ressing to do anything else. That is nothing new and certainly didn’t start with the addition of DPS meters.

I for one love the meters. Many seem to forget that these tools do not only provide information on your damage but also boon uptime, healing, ressing and a lot of other interesting information.
We are so quick to forget that meters did their part to encourage the use of different DPS builds other than the complex tempest rotations. People finally realized the difference in damage uptime between a golem test and the actual raid fight.

And most of all, nobody can make you use a tool you do not like. Nobody forces you to join a party which requires said tool. Nobody forces you to use any build or any gear. Nobody says you can’t make your own group and set whichever requirements you see fit. You are free to do so.
However, don’t push your own views on DPS meters on people who choose to use them and set them as a requirement for their own party then. Freedom needs to go both ways if it is supposed to mean anything.

I might be the only one, but it seems to me that this is another topic that people like to use as an excuse for whatever reason they were removed from a group. Not that there aren’t a cases like that.
There are always two sides to every story. It reminds me a lot of some posts we used to see. People complaining about elitists who seem to have kicked them for no reason at all. About the toxicity of others and never their own.
All though usually, most of us agreed with the party’s decision when we found out more about that person’s behaviour.

People can say that players will discriminate or behave badly toward other players no matter what. But there is a difference between that and giving those players an approved tool with which to discriminate. And this tool wouldn’t be perceived as necessary if Anet hadn’t added raids to GW2. Since we have raids, Anet feels it is necessary to allow this tool, so unfortunately we’re just going to have to live with it. I wish that Anet hadn’t added raids at all.

A lot of these anti dps meter anti raids anti meta posts and threads are written with the worst, most broken english. Quite often I wonder how much of the toxicity they perceive is the result of bad communication due to poor English skills.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Anet banned gear viewing, exact same problem, i.e fuel for toxic behavior. If you offer a tool that ranks people based on a couple of stats then that is fuel for abuse. Bad tools generate additional bad behavior. Check out WOW, that’s where raids are heading in GW2, toxic ugly self centered playing where being no 1 in a meter is important – is the cost really worth it?

- Toxic player with dps meter: toxic
- Nice player with dps meter: not toxic
- Some additional players who are not usually toxic peer pressured by a ranking system to be toxic. This is the reality of human behavior, not just that there are toxic humans and non toxic humans.

I am sorry you have this view. But in my view, I create a group to accomplish said content, I except this from the people in my group, now with the meter I can tell if said people are holding up their end. Otherwise it is a waste of my playing time in my group I created. So I kick them and get someone else.

So am I being toxic because someone else is effecting my playing time and my pleasure doing said content? I actually whisper people and tell them exactly why I booted them. Not calling them out or calling them a noob. Pretty detailed reason so they have something to build on and try to get better. I get more toxic response to my whispers then I see in game any where.

A DPS meter is just a tool to help a group be more efffective.

I am not anti meters, if people feel like they prefer them, then they should be able to,

I do think the larger issue is the reason why people want them. I think that the raid content was designed with high DPS in mind, which I think is a flaw in and of itself.

If DPS didn’t matter, and your success in the content was based on difficult mechanics… Like complete challenging mechanic or fail the encounter, then it would have a much better design, and the entire debate wouldn’t even come up.

It makes me wonder, where did high DPS = high skill cap originate? They are not always synomymous.