Guild Wars 2

I like easy games but this game is too easy. This dampens everything else, building the strongest gear feels like a chore simply because it just doesn’t matter and the marriage between action and rpg was okay but diversity just isn’t there.

There are actual “best builds” and it’s very 1 size fits all. People haven’t changed gear in years. It’s the exact progression that was to be avoided, you just sit and wait until something better gets released, swap to that, then wait.

Make a tougher game not new timers or just pile hp and damage into stuff. I miss “thinking” about builds.

There are plenty of harder games already out there, you should go play them and stop complaining here.

Wear lesser quality gear, and stop looking at ‘best builds.’ Problems solved.

~EW

Nobody forces you to use these so called “best builds”. I bet there are also poeple who run these builds and don´t know how to use them properly.

go to the lfg menu and try a raid with a pick up group or play ranked PvP with an elementalist alt

in all seriousness though, Gw2 excels at casual gameplay and cooperative content. you cant really criticize it for not being something it doesnt want to be and never was from the beginning

If you really want a challenge, just use nothing but your starter gear. Or better yet, wear nothing at all.

kurfu.5623:

There are plenty of harder games already out there, you should go play them and stop complaining here.

Aren’t you just a ray of sunshine.

It seems to me that the OP likes the game alright but is getting bored with a specific aspect of it. You know, it is just remotely possible that these harder games you refer to may not have the right setting or aesthetic for him.

The odd thing in this game is that on the one hand this game is very simplistic but on the other hand it has a certain depth with synergies between skills, weapon sets and skill tree choices that doesn’t quite fit with that. In the end though the biggest challenge this game has generally speaking is enemies with big HP and insta kill abilities.

Not sure if raids are the same in that since I never played them but in the larger part of the game the challenge is dodging things that could kill you instantly or very quickly and/or it’s just a lot of HP that you need to knock off before you can move another 5 meters on the map. I generalize here so it’s not quite that bad everywhere, but it does seem to be the starting point for ArenaNet’s combat design team.

I think it’s ok to not be happy with something like that and aske ArenaNet if they could do something about that. It’s ok to give people a chance to listen to you and decide whether they wanna do something with that instead of just instantly leaving each time there’s a part of any given game that you don’t like.

It’s funny that people complain that this game is easy…

Coming from the WoW world where everything is handed to you on a silver platter, this game is downright hard by MMO standards…

Yes, the game is too easy. Even raids feel too easy

I like a challenge every now and again…but I am easy to please too.
Skivvies, and a wooden long bow- hehehee= ruuuuuuuuuun!! WTF was I thinking!! RUUUUN!! oowowowowwww! dam pocket raptors ><

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Wear lesser quality gear, and stop looking at ‘best builds.’ Problems solved.

~EW

Playing in Nomad’s whites (is that even possible?) just makes for longer encounters not more challenging ones.

DGraves.3720:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Wear lesser quality gear, and stop looking at ‘best builds.’ Problems solved.

~EW

Playing in Nomad’s whites (is that even possible?) just makes for longer encounters not more challenging ones.

Lol, you don’t have to go to that extreme. Green Carrion, or Soldiers, or Dire, or Valkyrie, or even Berserker (and possibly others) would mean that you do functional damage, but can’t take as many hits and thus have to actively engage your enemies to not die… dumb down the gear to the point where facerolling the keyboard isn’t possible.

I have one of my lvl 80 farmers in all yellow Cleric’s…. he can still handle everything he come’s across… but even that little bit of a reduction requires me to think about the fights a smidge more than if he were in exotics/ascended… mostly when he’s surrounded by mobs… and I have considered dropping his equipment down to greens to make farming all the more engaging.

It’s not like it’d be very expensive to give the idea a try.

~EW

If the numbers behind builds and mobs say the mobs can lose, then it’s only a matter of time before PvE in any game is easy. This is especially true in a game like GW2 where active defense is a thing. Those who really want challenge should go into a game mode where the opposition isn’t following the same script the way mobs do.

Look at what happened with HoT. ANet intended to make the mobs harder. There were a lot of complaints they were too tough. Now, we see complaints they’re too easy. Heck, ANet has been making harder mobs since Karka. Each harder addition or change (i.e., Risen, Krait revamps) is met initially with thanks from the challenge seekers, and complaints from some others. Later, all those mobs are spoken of as in the “too easy” category.

That said, there has definitely been power creep in GW2, along with mob degradation via nerfs. I believe that anyone who is really after challenge should be fighting other players. However, there is room in GW2 PvE for some mobs to be more dangerous than they are. Some, however, are fine as is.

Just do less DPS.

penelopehannibal.8947:

Just do less DPS.

You should get a price for completely missing the point.

Less DPS just means a longer fight which is already often too long unless you happen to have other players around.

Difficulty and challenge are not equal to longer fights but fights with more interesting mechanics. However, I do not think that is possible in GW2 because of the way the whole combat system has been set up.

I got a laugh out of the replies to lower his standards to try and artificially create a challenge for himself. Give up your drive to be good at this game, but only to a degree in which the other occupants deem worthy, but don’t get all ambitious and do good beyond that you degenerate.

wiredrawn.7298:

I got a laugh out of the replies to lower his standards to try and artificially create a challenge for himself. Give up your drive to be good at this game, but only to a degree in which the other occupants deem worthy, but don’t get all ambitious and do good beyond that you degenerate.

I laugh at the idea that he’d somehow be ‘lowering his standards.’

Considering options that you have available to you is more mature than doing nothing in a sulk. The OP posted a thread detailing his problem, and it’s to be expected that some people would try to help by pointing out options he might not have considered.

Finding ways to challenge yourself is quite the opposite of giving up one’s drive to be good at a game.

~EW

@DGraves: Have you tried playing in first-person? I’ve found it to add a bit of extra challenge, too. Plus I think it’s kinda cool to see the mobs up-close for a change.

~EW

Hickeroar.9734:

It’s funny that people complain that this game is easy…

Coming from the WoW world where everything is handed to you on a silver platter, this game is downright hard by MMO standards…

I really hope you are joking …

wiredrawn.7298:

I got a laugh out of the replies to lower his standards to try and artificially create a challenge for himself. Give up your drive to be good at this game, but only to a degree in which the other occupants deem worthy, but don’t get all ambitious and do good beyond that you degenerate.

I got a laugh out of his suggestion of making the game harder, something clearly not supported by the wider population. You only have to look at the nerf of the HoT maps after the general outcry of it’s difficulty.

You can demand the game to change, which seems unlikely, or you can attempt to make your own challenge.

Play guardian with Spirit weapons, game gets more complicated, while SW run from batle or go on vecations.

Same as play with no utilities.

note: SW casted underwater will not make land skill be on CD…. funny bug when u fight with 4 (SW utulities and still have 2 shouts or traps to use).

It really is a conundrum. Making mobs harder (HoT) created a large out-cry from the community for nerfs. Many threatened to leave the game, and this forum was filled with out-cry.

But making mobs as easy as they are isn’t optimal either…I agree that the current mobs are often very face-role.

So maybe the solution is having difficult content be in its own instances, away from the main content? (raids)

Nope, not perfect either. There are plenty of people complaining on the forums that raids are too hard — despite them being out of the way of the maps and with the absolute forward-portrayed intention of hard-content. This is because of 1) shinnies ; and 2) story.

So Hard content would have to be instanced off from main content, not reward anything that can’t be earned from an easier method, and not present lore…

But then half the fun of doing hard content is gone…

It feels like there is no winning no matter what A-net does.

Razor.9872, HoT mobs were amazing fun and hard at the beggining.

Core Tyria was far too easy … people wanted harder content …. HoT came out and gave people what they asked for … people changed there minds and wanted it easier. anet nerfs it… now people saying game is too easy again.

Mobs difficulty is fine I think. Heart of Thorns is still a challenge to some. I still encounter – and know of – players that find it too tough and won’t play the game because of it. It’s all relative really.

You cannot please everyone, and they take the middle ground these days. As such some players will think it’s too tough and some too easy.

I do understand in though; Sadly, gone are the days of MMOs that were overall a challenge. I guess that’s what happens when the industry becomes driven by revenue and not passion.

Everyone plays some portion of the game, and they tend to get good at that portion. Sometimes a player will extrapolate their feelings about their portion to encompass the entire game, which is a meaningless generalisation. What you’re saying is, the part of the game that I play with the gear I like to play it with is too easy for me. The obvious thing would be to vary what you play and/or the gear you play with, as people have suggested. Or you could ask the developers to modify the ‘entire game’ to suit your particular niche. Whichever seems more rational to you.

ferdi.1452:

I really hope you are joking …

In terms of solo content, GW2 is far more challenging than most MMOs, which balance their content around the lowest of the lows. WoW is absolute faceroll in that aspect. GW2 is basically the Dark Souls of MMOs in comparison when playing through HoT, but only on certain classes, like a elementalist, whereas others, like a necromancer, are trivial. Personally, I’ve never seen another MMO where regular enemies could casually kill you within seconds.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Either way, I believe it’s safe to say Guild Wars 2 focuses more on a casual audience.

GW2 was meant to be casual in the sense of time, where you could make meaningful progress in shorter amounts. GW2 was never meant to be casual however, in the sense that you can faceroll through the content like you can in nearly every other MMO. HoT is definitely not casual and before the nerfs to the core game to make it easier for “WoW” players (“those not accustomed to action combat”), GW2’s original beta was also tuned for dodge or die combat.

ferdi.1452:

Hickeroar.9734:

It’s funny that people complain that this game is easy…

Coming from the WoW world where everything is handed to you on a silver platter, this game is downright hard by MMO standards…

I really hope you are joking …

I haven’t played WoW since 2010, but when I did, open world mobs offered no challenge to a character in dungeon gear (never mind raid gear). Then, we have welfare epics and LFR, so maybe WoW does hand things out on a platter.

Pretty Pixie.8603:

wiredrawn.7298:

I got a laugh out of the replies to lower his standards to try and artificially create a challenge for himself. Give up your drive to be good at this game, but only to a degree in which the other occupants deem worthy, but don’t get all ambitious and do good beyond that you degenerate.

I got a laugh out of his suggestion of making the game harder, something clearly not supported by the wider population. You only have to look at the nerf of the HoT maps after the general outcry of it’s difficulty.

You can demand the game to change, which seems unlikely, or you can attempt to make your own challenge.

I want to take note of that. Rather than the players rising to the challenge the game constantly lowers to the players. This is the primary reason why the game is too easy. If I went into a class and said “The test is too hard.” and the teacher just crossed off all but one question and made sure I knew the answer how exactly is that a challenge?

Guild Wars 2 is nothing but a collection of player-centric nerfs.

ew

I laugh at the idea that he’d somehow be ‘lowering his standards.’

Considering options that you have available to you is more mature than doing nothing in a sulk. The OP posted a thread detailing his problem, and it’s to be expected that some people would try to help by pointing out options he might not have considered.

Finding ways to challenge yourself is quite the opposite of giving up one’s drive to be good at a game.

~EW

I think that there is a difference between self-inflicted difficulty and developer intended in difficulty. For instance if you play this game naked you’re not making the game harder in the “mechanical” sense but the “numerical” sense. That is to say having lower stats doesn’t make the game depend on player skill but instead actually is (literally) choosing to play the game in a way never intended. That’s a form of artificial difficulty.

Also, I’ve played in 1st person. It’s okay.

The problem is that once you do something enough times it gets easier and easier. HoT mobs were difficult in the beginning, but once you get accustomed to what they do and adjust your playstyle they become quite easy, even for glass cannons. Lowering your stats doesn’t change that. The only thing it changes is that it takes longer to take your enemy down, but you’ll still be using the same skills

The most efficient form of challenge comes from things you haven’t done before, or have rarely done before. New encounters, new enemies, new mechanics, new skills.

You’ll find best builds in every game. I have yet to come across a game where every single build you can come up with is as effective as the one before. And those best builds are only a problem if you actually take heed of them. Ignore the zerker meta and make your own builds, choose your own stat combination instead of the standard zerk or viper stats. Choose your own weapons and rotations instead of the ones prescribed on metabattle.com. There are still plenty of options besides the builds on display there.

I don’t see how “thinking about builds” is no longer possible here, unless you do want the best builds, just not the ones that the meta prescribes. And to be honest, I have changed gear on several characters throughout the years, especially since HoT came out. It’s just that, when I am working on my own best builds, they are often similar or almost similar to the meta builds. Figuring out these builds isn’t difficult.

DGraves.3720:

There are actual “best builds” and it’s very 1 size fits all. People haven’t changed gear in years. It’s the exact progression that was to be avoided, you just sit and wait until something better gets released, swap to that, then wait.

If this description fits you, then the problem is not the game. This implies you get the best gear and builds, and when something better comes along you go for that. It’s only logical that the best builds and gear make the game easier (provided you also have the skills for it, which I assume you do or you wouldn’t be complaining the game is too easy). Abandon the whole best build principle. Don’t go for the best gear stats. And don’t do the same thing over and over and over again. There will be no surprises when you’re hammering down on an enemy for the umpteenth time and you’ll anticipate everything in advance. Often having to stay alive for a longer time because it takes longer to kill an enemy takes the faceroll out of the game already. Solo content that’s scaled for multiple players. Duo T4 Fractals, low-man Raids, that kind of stuff. That’s where you find the challenge in this game, in my honest opinion.

DGraves.3720:

I think that there is a difference between self-inflicted difficulty and developer intended in difficulty. For instance if you play this game naked you’re not making the game harder in the “mechanical” sense but the “numerical” sense.

Now we’re getting somewhere!

I tend to see plenty of examples of the “too hard” monsters (heck, in other threads, I’ve identified quite a few low-effort/high-power criminals of lazy design), but I don’t usually see what “too easy” people say about how to handle difficulty. It’s mostly just whinging.

So, design your perfect HoT critter. Evaluate what would be good about it, and start pitching those suggestions.
What can’t be suggested is:
Hits harder: That’s just numerical, artificial difficulty
More HP: Same as above, and we’re tired of spongy mobs anyway. Lots of HoT isn’t more difficult from mechanics, it’s having to deal with the annoyances 3x as a long because kill times shot up between Core and HoT
More/Longer CC: Again, numerical and artificial difficulty with unnecessary punishment. (Many existing HoT mobs are guilty of this.)
One-hit KO: Perhaps the ultimate in artificial/numerical difficulty, and it encourages damage-meta builds, because defense is worthless. (Can’t “think about builds” if 2/3 of them are invalidated.) It’s unnecessarily punishing and doesn’t speak of good design.

Which leaves us with more puzzle-ish mechanics like:
Smokescales: Position-based invincibility.
On the one hand, teaches players to move. On the other “zomg fite takes 4evr bcuz smoke is cheez lol”. Because if one can’t zerk-burst an enemy down, it’s suddenly a nuisance.

So what are the goodly difficult mobs?

TheNecrosanct.4028:

The problem is that once you do something enough times it gets easier and easier. HoT mobs were difficult in the beginning, but once you get accustomed to what they do and adjust your playstyle they become quite easy, even for glass cannons. Lowering your stats doesn’t change that. The only thing it changes is that it takes longer to take your enemy down, but you’ll still be using the same skills

The most efficient form of challenge comes from things you haven’t done before, or have rarely done before. New encounters, new enemies, new mechanics, new skills.

You’ll find best builds in every game. I have yet to come across a game where every single build you can come up with is as effective as the one before. And those best builds are only a problem if you actually take heed of them. Ignore the zerker meta and make your own builds, choose your own stat combination instead of the standard zerk or viper stats. Choose your own weapons and rotations instead of the ones prescribed on metabattle.com. There are still plenty of options besides the builds on display there.

I don’t see how “thinking about builds” is no longer possible here, unless you do want the best builds, just not the ones that the meta prescribes. And to be honest, I have changed gear on several characters throughout the years, especially since HoT came out. It’s just that, when I am working on my own best builds, they are often similar or almost similar to the meta builds. Figuring out these builds isn’t difficult.

DGraves.3720:

There are actual “best builds” and it’s very 1 size fits all. People haven’t changed gear in years. It’s the exact progression that was to be avoided, you just sit and wait until something better gets released, swap to that, then wait.

If this description fits you, then the problem is not the game. This implies you get the best gear and builds, and when something better comes along you go for that. It’s only logical that the best builds and gear make the game easier (provided you also have the skills for it, which I assume you do or you wouldn’t be complaining the game is too easy). Abandon the whole best build principle. Don’t go for the best gear stats. And don’t do the same thing over and over and over again. There will be no surprises when you’re hammering down on an enemy for the umpteenth time and you’ll anticipate everything in advance. Often having to stay alive for a longer time because it takes longer to kill an enemy takes the faceroll out of the game already. Solo content that’s scaled for multiple players. Duo T4 Fractals, low-man Raids, that kind of stuff. That’s where you find the challenge in this game, in my honest opinion.

I want to talk about this piece for a second. So while I agree with everything you said but this I do think that this is the main problem. The reality is that the game really doesn’t support deviation; while I do not use “metabattle” at all I do find that over time there is alignment and a natural kinship specifically because other builds do not work. Much like killing things in longer periods being meaningless running around as a “healer” or “tank” or even “bruiser” is ineffectual at best and ultimately the games design deigns that DPS really is king. Deviations from these facts are somewhat difficult to justify.

It isn’t a matter of super-rotations so much as it is a matter of the action component. Defense is active, not stat based, so taking stats that enforce defense doesn’t really bolster defense since they play such a minor role in your survival. The same is true of healing in the sense of “over-time” effects; sustain is in and of itself worthless.

That leaves you with the offensive stats of power, ferocity, condition damage, expertise and precision. Those have a distinct order based on what you’re fighting and what you build / have access to and it changes by class and scenario but most of the game will succumb to power based builds easier than condition based.

So ultimately you wind up, after all is said and done, if playing the game correctly and well … in Berzerker/Assassin’s. It becomes the only rational conclusion. Even for “fun” exploration is limited because of the ineffectual nature of just about all the other options.

Game will always struggle with actual difficulty because of how it’s designed. In GW1 later missions/elite areas you had to watch patrol patterns of various mobs and make your moves with timing and keep somewhat of a formation going and if you aggro’d another mob by mistake you were in for some tough times.

GW2 is just all about stacking, running past mobs (they are trash that require zero skill/planning so why bother actually fighting them) etc… Dunno about Raids so I can’t comment on that. From the outsider it just looks like A.net piled a buncha annoying effects/super strong skills onto a typical boss fight.

DGraves.3720:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

The problem is that once you do something enough times it gets easier and easier. HoT mobs were difficult in the beginning, but once you get accustomed to what they do and adjust your playstyle they become quite easy, even for glass cannons. Lowering your stats doesn’t change that. The only thing it changes is that it takes longer to take your enemy down, but you’ll still be using the same skills

The most efficient form of challenge comes from things you haven’t done before, or have rarely done before. New encounters, new enemies, new mechanics, new skills.

You’ll find best builds in every game. I have yet to come across a game where every single build you can come up with is as effective as the one before. And those best builds are only a problem if you actually take heed of them. Ignore the zerker meta and make your own builds, choose your own stat combination instead of the standard zerk or viper stats. Choose your own weapons and rotations instead of the ones prescribed on metabattle.com. There are still plenty of options besides the builds on display there.

I don’t see how “thinking about builds” is no longer possible here, unless you do want the best builds, just not the ones that the meta prescribes. And to be honest, I have changed gear on several characters throughout the years, especially since HoT came out. It’s just that, when I am working on my own best builds, they are often similar or almost similar to the meta builds. Figuring out these builds isn’t difficult.

DGraves.3720:

There are actual “best builds” and it’s very 1 size fits all. People haven’t changed gear in years. It’s the exact progression that was to be avoided, you just sit and wait until something better gets released, swap to that, then wait.

If this description fits you, then the problem is not the game. This implies you get the best gear and builds, and when something better comes along you go for that. It’s only logical that the best builds and gear make the game easier (provided you also have the skills for it, which I assume you do or you wouldn’t be complaining the game is too easy). Abandon the whole best build principle. Don’t go for the best gear stats. And don’t do the same thing over and over and over again. There will be no surprises when you’re hammering down on an enemy for the umpteenth time and you’ll anticipate everything in advance. Often having to stay alive for a longer time because it takes longer to kill an enemy takes the faceroll out of the game already. Solo content that’s scaled for multiple players. Duo T4 Fractals, low-man Raids, that kind of stuff. That’s where you find the challenge in this game, in my honest opinion.

I want to talk about this piece for a second. So while I agree with everything you said but this I do think that this is the main problem. The reality is that the game really doesn’t support deviation; while I do not use “metabattle” at all I do find that over time there is alignment and a natural kinship specifically because other builds do not work. Much like killing things in longer periods being meaningless running around as a “healer” or “tank” or even “bruiser” is ineffectual at best and ultimately the games design deigns that DPS really is king. Deviations from these facts are somewhat difficult to justify.

It isn’t a matter of super-rotations so much as it is a matter of the action component. Defense is active, not stat based, so taking stats that enforce defense doesn’t really bolster defense since they play such a minor role in your survival. The same is true of healing in the sense of “over-time” effects; sustain is in and of itself worthless.

That leaves you with the offensive stats of power, ferocity, condition damage, expertise and precision. Those have a distinct order based on what you’re fighting and what you build / have access to and it changes by class and scenario but most of the game will succumb to power based builds easier than condition based.

So ultimately you wind up, after all is said and done, if playing the game correctly and well … in Berzerker/Assassin’s. It becomes the only rational conclusion. Even for “fun” exploration is limited because of the ineffectual nature of just about all the other options.

While what you’re saying is absolutely true, and a direct result of a “No Trinity” game, it is still a choice to go for that. If inefficient builds and gear give people more challenge and challenge is what they want, it clearly is an option to go for those builds. “The game forces me” is not really a good argument, because it doesn’t. A Trinity game will invariably have more options for build diversity, because you have several roles that need to be performed. In GW2, these roles are largely redundant. It’s the nature of the game and has been since launch. Taking it from there, the only real challenge in GW2, once you are intimately familiar with your class and the enemies, comes from new encounters, new traits, new enemies, figuring out the new best build/gear/rotation after a “balance” patch, etc. (I put “balance” between quotation marks, because I find the balance part sometimes lacks from these balance patches).

I ran around with a full Clerics guardian for a while (full ascended as well, because he was my main Fractals character). Taking things out on my own took a hell of a long time and was boring as hell to me, so I changed it to berserker stats and adjusted the build to do more damage. The point is that most people, after having done everything many times, just want it to go smooth and be efficient. Almost no one wants to wipe over and over again in AC after having done it a thousand times, especially not when you’re used to fast and efficient runs (which I am). That was fun in the beginning of the game, but not anymore.

So yes, damage builds rule in GW2. A bit less so in Raids, but even there the tanks and healers don’t need to be full tanks and healers to perform those roles and can still focus mainly on dps gear. It also makes this game easier to solo. In a Trinity game, try wandering around the world solo as a healer and then take down your enemies. In GW2 every class stands an equal chance of defeating everything in a fairly equal amount of time (well, in principle, that is, but that’s the “balance” in this game). This is just one of the things in which GW2 tries to be different from the old MMO standard, and in that regard they definitely succeeded. The effects of that, however, are not everyone’s cup of tea.

Open world has to stay relatively easy, because if getting around is a chore many folks will not enjoy the game as much. That’s the problem with HoT – restricted pathways with mobs you can’t avoid and/or run through. Bloodstone Fen was better received because you can get around more easily and pick your fights when you want.

What puzzles me is why they have not yet introduced a hard mode for instanced content – same mobs but harder hitting and more damage resistant, increase the loot, add a few achievements etc. That would not be a huge amount of development and would go some way to satisfy those who want more challenge.

The risk of making the game as a whole more difficult is that you lose more players than you gain.

DoctorDing.5890:

Open world has to stay relatively easy, because if getting around is a chore many folks will not enjoy the game as much. That’s the problem with HoT – restricted pathways with mobs you can’t avoid and/or run through. Bloodstone Fen was better received because you can get around more easily and pick your fights when you want.

What puzzles me is why they have not yet introduced a hard mode for instanced content – same mobs but harder hitting and more damage resistant, increase the loot, add a few achievements etc. That would not be a huge amount of development and would go some way to satisfy those who want more challenge.

The risk of making the game as a whole more difficult is that you lose more players than you gain.

You can consider T4 Fractals hard mode. Raids also bring that level of challenge into the game. Dungeons have been completely abandoned years ago, so nothing will change there. But hard mode instanced content is definitely there. In the case of Raids it’s the only mode available, but for Fractals you can choose at what difficulty mode you will run the content. This is the route ANet has chosen, their version of hard mode content. Remember that they don’t want to be a carbon copy of most other MMO’s out there, so you won’t always find traditional methods in GW2. And in my opinion the game is very successful in achieving that.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

DoctorDing.5890:

Open world has to stay relatively easy, because if getting around is a chore many folks will not enjoy the game as much. That’s the problem with HoT – restricted pathways with mobs you can’t avoid and/or run through. Bloodstone Fen was better received because you can get around more easily and pick your fights when you want.

What puzzles me is why they have not yet introduced a hard mode for instanced content – same mobs but harder hitting and more damage resistant, increase the loot, add a few achievements etc. That would not be a huge amount of development and would go some way to satisfy those who want more challenge.

The risk of making the game as a whole more difficult is that you lose more players than you gain.

You can consider T4 Fractals hard mode. Raids also bring that level of challenge into the game. Dungeons have been completely abandoned years ago, so nothing will change there. But hard mode instanced content is definitely there. In the case of Raids it’s the only mode available, but for Fractals you can choose at what difficulty mode you will run the content. This is the route ANet has chosen, their version of hard mode content. Remember that they don’t want to be a carbon copy of most other MMO’s out there, so you won’t always find traditional methods in GW2. And in my opinion the game is very successful in achieving that.

I’d like “Hard Mode” story instances (Though hopefully not quite like the Instagib AoE Spam of Migraine)

The HoT Nerf simply made the map more solo/roamer friendly. That said, I hope they do away with Defiance on Veterans and below in future content, because that’s absolutely devastating against any build/class that uses blind, cripple, weakness, or other light control effects to stay alive.

I think vets need to be stronger -.-.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I haven’t played WoW since 2010, but when I did, open world mobs offered no challenge to a character in dungeon gear (never mind raid gear). Then, we have welfare epics and LFR, so maybe WoW does hand things out on a platter.

I never played WoW but did you get the dungeon gear or raid gear just handed to you or did you actually have to do something for that?

Because I’m not familiar with terms like welfare epics and such, so I really am not sure what you mean here.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

While what you’re saying is absolutely true, and a direct result of a “No Trinity” game, it is still a choice to go for that. If inefficient builds and gear give people more challenge and challenge is what they want, it clearly is an option to go for those builds. “The game forces me” is not really a good argument, because it doesn’t.

I feel like this is the wrong way to think of this. The reason why is because this returns to “make it harder for yourself!” which defeats the purpose of playing the game to begin with. If I have to make a game harder, but cannot modify it in any way, then I must do so within the parameters offered. What this means to me is that in order to increase difficulty I have to play worse on purpose.

This goes back to my analogy of the testing; instead of the test being reduced down to the student’s level now we have the class grade being upscaled by the student. The student purposefully fails a test so it is harder to pass? That makes no sense. Doing that does not make for genuine difficulty. As a matter of fact that’s outright self-sabotage.

It isn’t that the game forces me not to sabotage myself but instead that we must, at some point, admit that self-sabotage is not the logical course of action and therefore not an rational and acceptable course of action as an option. As far as I’m concerned that’s equivalent to being upset that you type at 90 wpm with two hands so you cut off your arm to see if you can get there one-handed.

A Trinity game will invariably have more options for build diversity, because you have several roles that need to be performed. In GW2, these roles are largely redundant. It’s the nature of the game and has been since launch. Taking it from there, the only real challenge in GW2, once you are intimately familiar with your class and the enemies, comes from new encounters, new traits, new enemies, figuring out the new best build/gear/rotation after a “balance” patch, etc. (I put “balance” between quotation marks, because I find the balance part sometimes lacks from these balance patches).

The developers however constantly reduce the number of traits, merging them, and completely obliterating the original choice set because it was “too complex”. The developers reduced the enemy difficulty across all difficulties because it was “too hard”. The developers have greatly increased the ease of which one acquires things in the game because it was “too rare”. Am I angry with the developer? No. However the players demanded this, the developer gave it, the business thrives (sorta) but at the cost of the integrity of the game.

GW2 when launched is an entirely different game from it’s current state. A large complex set of maps with a gliding mechanic built in doesn’t change the fact that the game is rendered easier and easier every single patch and honestly it continues to drop in ease. That’s not a bad thing, for everyone’s sake, but over time what this does is it reduces the game to a very … primitive state.

“Destroy the red bar.”

Once you make it steamlined enough there’s no other option; you realize that a number of traits, kits, weapons, pets, etc. are all … worthless. It’s junk. And that is how the slippery slope begins. You build in more junk, you change up the base stats so you can implement “tougher to earn” armor for no reason whatsoever changing the game from casual to mild gear grind solely so that the “psychological feeling of accomplishment” is present but honestly is that not just the playerbase asking for WoW all over again?

And what happens when Ascended becomes the norm? Raids. Cookie-cutter raids at that. Same old “learn the encounter, play the encounter”. I do feel for developers though, they have to contend with YouTube basically telling people how to play their game and exploration is really a player choice but still.

I ran around with a full Clerics guardian for a while (full ascended as well, because he was my main Fractals character). Taking things out on my own took a hell of a long time and was boring as hell to me, so I changed it to berserker stats and adjusted the build to do more damage. The point is that most people, after having done everything many times, just want it to go smooth and be efficient. Almost no one wants to wipe over and over again in AC after having done it a thousand times, especially not when you’re used to fast and efficient runs (which I am). That was fun in the beginning of the game, but not anymore.

So yes, damage builds rule in GW2. A bit less so in Raids, but even there the tanks and healers don’t need to be full tanks and healers to perform those roles and can still focus mainly on dps gear. It also makes this game easier to solo. In a Trinity game, try wandering around the world solo as a healer and then take down your enemies. In GW2 every class stands an equal chance of defeating everything in a fairly equal amount of time (well, in principle, that is, but that’s the “balance” in this game). This is just one of the things in which GW2 tries to be different from the old MMO standard, and in that regard they definitely succeeded. The effects of that, however, are not everyone’s cup of tea.

This is where I disagree. Open World Mesmer is not Open World Warrior. The difference in heartiness is ridiculous. You cannot say “I am as effective against Champion X with my Mesmer as I am with my Warrior!” because it just isn’t true. The game has classes, it has armor classes (never could figure out why that was), it has lots of differentiation but both in leveling and end-game there’s a tangible difference between classes and their principle capabilities.

This is why player choice is not there. If you built a Mesmer in Nomad’s gear you’d still die faster than a Warrior in Berzerker’s gear. For the light classes other than active defense it’s all damage or bust; you will get murdered if you go otherwise. You cannot, and will not, succeed in any capacity trying to take a hit.

So no, running around as a healer with excellent HoT (Heal over Time not Heart of Thorns) and an inherent aura saving your life in some other games is significantly easier than trying to outpace even a champion skelk with a Mesmer in full defensive gear. And the cost analysis is so bad! You lose all the damage which only increases risk which only increases player error. You take all the damage which only increases impact which only makes the inevitable hit that much harder.

It’s an internal design lose/lose.

Aeolus.3615:

Razor.9872, HoT mobs were amazing fun and hard at the beggining.

Yes, until many cried for nerfs. The mobs were just apparently too challenging for the average player.

One thing that I really like to do to bring up the challenge of the game without gimping yourself with kitten gear is to organize lowbie/newbie player dungeon runs. I just put:

“AC full run newbies only” and my party just instantly fills up with new players barely with the required level for the dungeon that are having a hard time completing the dungeon. Its a real challenge to carry lowbies in blue gear and quite frankly lots of fun.

Alternatively, you can try solo dungeon runs. The subject alpha boss in Crucible of eternity and Giganticus Lupicus in aram really put up a fun challenge for soloing.

DGraves.3720:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

While what you’re saying is absolutely true, and a direct result of a “No Trinity” game, it is still a choice to go for that. If inefficient builds and gear give people more challenge and challenge is what they want, it clearly is an option to go for those builds. “The game forces me” is not really a good argument, because it doesn’t.

I feel like this is the wrong way to think of this. The reason why is because this returns to “make it harder for yourself!” which defeats the purpose of playing the game to begin with. If I have to make a game harder, but cannot modify it in any way, then I must do so within the parameters offered. What this means to me is that in order to increase difficulty I have to play worse on purpose.

This goes back to my analogy of the testing; instead of the test being reduced down to the student’s level now we have the class grade being upscaled by the student. The student purposefully fails a test so it is harder to pass? That makes no sense. Doing that does not make for genuine difficulty. As a matter of fact that’s outright self-sabotage.

It isn’t that the game forces me not to sabotage myself but instead that we must, at some point, admit that self-sabotage is not the logical course of action and therefore not an rational and acceptable course of action as an option. As far as I’m concerned that’s equivalent to being upset that you type at 90 wpm with two hands so you cut off your arm to see if you can get there one-handed.

A Trinity game will invariably have more options for build diversity, because you have several roles that need to be performed. In GW2, these roles are largely redundant. It’s the nature of the game and has been since launch. Taking it from there, the only real challenge in GW2, once you are intimately familiar with your class and the enemies, comes from new encounters, new traits, new enemies, figuring out the new best build/gear/rotation after a “balance” patch, etc. (I put “balance” between quotation marks, because I find the balance part sometimes lacks from these balance patches).

The developers however constantly reduce the number of traits, merging them, and completely obliterating the original choice set because it was “too complex”. The developers reduced the enemy difficulty across all difficulties because it was “too hard”. The developers have greatly increased the ease of which one acquires things in the game because it was “too rare”. Am I angry with the developer? No. However the players demanded this, the developer gave it, the business thrives (sorta) but at the cost of the integrity of the game.

GW2 when launched is an entirely different game from it’s current state. A large complex set of maps with a gliding mechanic built in doesn’t change the fact that the game is rendered easier and easier every single patch and honestly it continues to drop in ease. That’s not a bad thing, for everyone’s sake, but over time what this does is it reduces the game to a very … primitive state.

“Destroy the red bar.”

Once you make it steamlined enough there’s no other option; you realize that a number of traits, kits, weapons, pets, etc. are all … worthless. It’s junk. And that is how the slippery slope begins. You build in more junk, you change up the base stats so you can implement “tougher to earn” armor for no reason whatsoever changing the game from casual to mild gear grind solely so that the “psychological feeling of accomplishment” is present but honestly is that not just the playerbase asking for WoW all over again?

And what happens when Ascended becomes the norm? Raids. Cookie-cutter raids at that. Same old “learn the encounter, play the encounter”. I do feel for developers though, they have to contend with YouTube basically telling people how to play their game and exploration is really a player choice but still.

I ran around with a full Clerics guardian for a while (full ascended as well, because he was my main Fractals character). Taking things out on my own took a hell of a long time and was boring as hell to me, so I changed it to berserker stats and adjusted the build to do more damage. The point is that most people, after having done everything many times, just want it to go smooth and be efficient. Almost no one wants to wipe over and over again in AC after having done it a thousand times, especially not when you’re used to fast and efficient runs (which I am). That was fun in the beginning of the game, but not anymore.

So yes, damage builds rule in GW2. A bit less so in Raids, but even there the tanks and healers don’t need to be full tanks and healers to perform those roles and can still focus mainly on dps gear. It also makes this game easier to solo. In a Trinity game, try wandering around the world solo as a healer and then take down your enemies. In GW2 every class stands an equal chance of defeating everything in a fairly equal amount of time (well, in principle, that is, but that’s the “balance” in this game). This is just one of the things in which GW2 tries to be different from the old MMO standard, and in that regard they definitely succeeded. The effects of that, however, are not everyone’s cup of tea.

This is where I disagree. Open World Mesmer is not Open World Warrior. The difference in heartiness is ridiculous. You cannot say “I am as effective against Champion X with my Mesmer as I am with my Warrior!” because it just isn’t true. The game has classes, it has armor classes (never could figure out why that was), it has lots of differentiation but both in leveling and end-game there’s a tangible difference between classes and their principle capabilities.

This is why player choice is not there. If you built a Mesmer in Nomad’s gear you’d still die faster than a Warrior in Berzerker’s gear. For the light classes other than active defense it’s all damage or bust; you will get murdered if you go otherwise. You cannot, and will not, succeed in any capacity trying to take a hit.

So no, running around as a healer with excellent HoT (Heal over Time not Heart of Thorns) and an inherent aura saving your life in some other games is significantly easier than trying to outpace even a champion skelk with a Mesmer in full defensive gear. And the cost analysis is so bad! You lose all the damage which only increases risk which only increases player error. You take all the damage which only increases impact which only makes the inevitable hit that much harder.

It’s an internal design lose/lose.

I pretty much agree. I think at this point we need to start asking the hard questions.

- What can A-net do to lean ‘casual’ players in the direction of self-improvement, so they would be content with pre-nerf HoT?

It seems other games try to build their difficulty very slowly over time. I had thought A-net was doing the same, but apparently HoT was too much of a leap?

ferdi.1452:

Hickeroar.9734:

It’s funny that people complain that this game is easy…

Coming from the WoW world where everything is handed to you on a silver platter, this game is downright hard by MMO standards…

I really hope you are joking …

WoW is different in the sense that your gear is not fixed the way it is here (more or less). If a zone is difficult in WoW, it’s only a matter of time before you can trivialize it with gear. For instance, the initial heroic 5-man offerings were quite difficult. But the same content was a complete joke by the time a raid tier or two had passed because everyone outgeared the content.

Consider the leveling experience in WoW. In normal gear it’s no more or less difficult than core Tyria. But established players don’t level in normal gear, they level in heirloom gear that scales to your level and always has by far the best stats you can get (until very high level).

If you’re talking instanced PvE (raids, dungeons), then obviously WoW is the more challenging game. But open world? It’s hard to say that WoW is more difficult because even in cases where a zone is initially challenging (Tanaan Jungle, etc.) once you gear up you can roll right over it.

DGraves.3720:

People haven’t changed gear in years.

Yes. The ease of getting the most powerful gear and lack of gear progression (both ideas taken from GW1) were one of the important selling points of this game. They still are.

DGraves.3720:

I want to take note of that. Rather than the players rising to the challenge the game constantly lowers to the players. This is the primary reason why the game is too easy. If I went into a class and said “The test is too hard.” and the teacher just crossed off all but one question and made sure I knew the answer how exactly is that a challenge?

That’s what you don’t get. Not everyone is interested in being challenged. There are other reasons for playing games as well.

Razor.9872:

- What can A-net do to lean ‘casual’ players in the direction of self-improvement, so they would be content with pre-nerf HoT?

Most likely nothing. Why should they even attempt that, if, as it seems, majority of the players do not want to improve? It’s not like there’s some inherent value in “being a more hardcore player”, or in game being more difficult.

Hickeroar.9734:

It’s funny that people complain that this game is easy…

Coming from the WoW world where everything is handed to you on a silver platter, this game is downright hard by MMO standards…

Wait what? Please explain because I’m confused. Because as far as my experience playing MMOs in the past 15 plus years starting with RS and current MMOs with the exception of maybe WoW. GW2 is clearly the absolute most casual and easy mode MMO on the market now. Hey you don’t even need skill to get to legendary division in sPvP as you can just spam games till you are there. Fractals are very easy by current dungeon standards. Raids are super simplistic by current and past MMO standards. RvR or WvW in GW2’s case all you need to do is stack a server with players and the blob always wins, alot of other MMOs give small man and medium sized PvP groups tools to beat a mindless skill-less zerg. In GW2’s in WvW players in 75 plus man Omni-blobs roll over all opposition on the map. In other MMOs I’m also currently playing, 2 skilled and geared players can destroy 12 to 15 not so skilled player groups, and 12 or 15 highly skilled players can curbstomp 40 or more not so skilled players. So the MMO I’m currently playing is highly punishing to casual and players that just can’t get it for what ever reasons.

All of this is nothing to feel embarrassed about. It is good that there is a super easy and casual MMO option on the market for players who either, want to take a break from the more serious MMOs, players who don’t have the time, or player that don’t have the mental or physical capability to play more difficult MMOs. This is pretty much the only reason GW2 is still alive atm despite all of it’s flaws.

If GW2 was not a super easy casual MMO with all of the flaws it currently has in it’s game modes today. Barely anyone would even think about this game.

10/10 GW2 awesome game to relax and feel like a God with very little time and effort invested into it.

ANet knew what they was doing on this point and does have a monopoly in this department as of now. They should be praised.

Razor.9872:

Aeolus.3615:

Razor.9872, HoT mobs were amazing fun and hard at the beggining.

Yes, until many cried for nerfs. The mobs were just apparently too challenging for the average player.

Except I don’t recall them ever actually nerfing the mobs, aside from,removing a few from travel chokepoints (To enable players to move around the maps a bit easier), and scaling champs down to Veterans (Though I kinda wish they’d scaled them to Elites – Still soloable, but an actual event-worthy challenge)

Reaper Alim.4176:

Hickeroar.9734:

It’s funny that people complain that this game is easy…

Coming from the WoW world where everything is handed to you on a silver platter, this game is downright hard by MMO standards…

Wait what? Please explain because I’m confused. Because as far as my experience playing MMOs in the past 15 plus years starting with RS and current MMOs with the exception of maybe WoW. GW2 is clearly the absolute most casual and easy mode MMO on the market now. Hey you don’t even need skill to get to legendary division in sPvP as you can just spam games till you are there. Fractals are very easy by current dungeon standards. Raids are super simplistic by current and past MMO standards. RvR or WvW in GW2’s case all you need to do is stack a server with players and the blob always wins, alot of other MMOs give small man and medium sized PvP groups tools to beat a mindless skill-less zerg. In GW2’s in WvW players in 75 plus man Omni-blobs roll over all opposition on the map. In other MMOs I’m also currently playing, 2 skilled and geared players can destroy 12 to 15 not so skilled player groups, and 12 or 15 highly skilled players can curbstomp 40 or more not so skilled players. So the MMO I’m currently playing is highly punishing to casual and players that just can’t get it for what ever reasons.

All of this is nothing to feel embarrassed about. It is good that there is a super easy and casual MMO option on the market for players who either, want to take a break from the more serious MMOs, players who don’t have the time, or player that don’t have the mental or physical capability to play more difficult MMOs. This is pretty much the only reason GW2 is still alive atm despite all of it’s flaws.

If GW2 was not a super easy casual MMO with all of the flaws it currently has in it’s game modes today. Barely anyone would even think about this game.

10/10 GW2 awesome game to relax and feel like a God with very little time and effort invested into it.

ANet knew what they was doing on this point and does have a monopoly in this department as of now. They should be praised.

To a lot of people Gw2 is more difficult than past mmo’s because of its action rpg oriented nature. Doesn’t matter whether they can understand an encounter or not if they’re bad at dodging.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Sartharina.3542:

Except I don’t recall them ever actually nerfing the mobs, aside from,removing a few from travel chokepoints (To enable players to move around the maps a bit easier), and scaling champs down to Veterans (Though I kinda wish they’d scaled them to Elites – Still soloable, but an actual event-worthy challenge)

Both your ‘aside’ points are examples of them nerfing the mobs. . . .

Eh… not really. They didn’t change the behavior or stats of the mobs in any manner, except for the champs.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Case in point: They nerfed all the champions in the starter zone into vets. Even you state this. That alone discounts any notion that they didn’t nerf mobs.

That’s a terrible example since it wasn’t done to alleviate complaints of difficulty. They did that to stop champ trains from ruining newbie zones, which was a fantastic idea.