Guild Wars 2

/forum bug

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You said it right there. Soloers. Because it is impossible for a single player to put out the sheer amount of damage to quickly kill a dungeon enemy, survivability becomes much more important.

You need to put out as much damage as possible to be able to solo dungeon bosses as you need to kill them before they can kill you = avoid as many of their attacks as possible.

While true, a single player cannot put out the damage required to kill a boss before you run out of dodges (aside from thieves). Thus, building more defensively becomes optimal because those stats matter.

I have never seen a video of someone soloing a dungeon without zerker gear*. Search for solo dungeon videos – they all need the damage.

.* Not saying it doesn’t exist since I haven’t watched that many solo dungeon videos and I’m mostly interested in thief anyway. Have watched some warriors soloing dungeons though – also full zerker.

Edit: And this game is designed for 2 dodges being enough. if people dodge randomly (like me at times) it’s their bad.

I’m more tired of the skip-glitch-stack meta rather than the zerker meta. Doesn’t matter what gear everyone runs, they all skip past all the trash mobs and seek out bosses only. If anet doesn’t fix the zerk meta they can fix this meta.

• Make trash mobs keep aggro unless the dungeon mechanic specifically requires you to skip them
• Increase their loot drop rate to make them valuable to kill rather than skip.
• Add mechanics to bosses which penalize stacking (like a small powerful quick firing PBAOE that instagibs if it hits more than 3 people)

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Most great RPGs don’t have “essential roles” either, yet they have interesting mechanics and encounters. No RPG needs healers and tanks to have good mechanics, the Trinity is strictly used in MMORPGs, nowhere else.

Many games even class based shooters have it disguised in some way shape or form. The key here is that it is entirely optional because of how the game works and not mandatory.

The actually good RPGs don’t have mandatory role requirements either. Those who try to look like MMORPGs are the only ones that do. So all the actually real RPGs are NOT RPGs by that definition…

You do play how you want.

It’s just with the developers making this game easymode, repetitive and all. Its just a lot faster to go full dps and breeze through everything.

I mean… They listened to you guys and tried to steer away from the meta by making world bosses harder, like SB more portals, tequatl you have to go through all the phases now, etc.
What you guys do when they tried to make it a bit harder so full dps build isn’t preferred?

You guys whined.

You guys are just as bad as the WvW community.
We want new modes, new things to do, server merges.

They give you exactly what you asked for, EotM, you guys whined.
People even whined about EotM not being like traditional borderlands WvW, they added siege disablers to help people play defense more often. Guess what??? People whined about siege disablers. People whined about EotM changing trends to bag farming instead of karma farming. People still whining about server merges, they merge servers in EotM.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Time-to-merge-populations/page/2#post4602340
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/New-trend-in-EOTM/page/2#post4597334
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Siege-Disablers-Ruined-the-Game/page/2#post4585398

Also just as bad as the PvP community.
We want deathmatch style games, we want new game modes, people to have to change there build/meta.

They give you EXACTLY what you asked for, Courtyard, you guys whined.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/people-are-leaving-courtyard-on-purpose/first#post4602422
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Why-Courtyard-why/first#post4603253

Nothing but a big bunch of babies whining. They keep listening to you, but your not the right person to listen too. They need to start listening to THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

If you don’t like it that a lot of people who create their LFG prefer people with DPS builds in berserker/assassin gear, then create your own group. Please stop trying to tell players how to play and then being hypocritical about it by stating that you should play how you want to play.

Some people clearly have forgotten GW where some builds were preferred over others. Did that make those other builds not viable? No. They were just not optimal. It’s the same way for this game.

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Why do you bring a Guardian in a dungeon? Because you need him to protect your team with blind, aegis, reflection, protection so the team will be able to stay alive longer.

Why do you bring a Warrior in a dungeon? So he can provide offensive buff to the whole team and boost their dmg with banner, empower allies, vulnerability, might, etc.

Why do you bring a Elementalist? For its dps, Ice Bow, Might Stacking, Vulnerability.

Why do you bring a Thief? So he can use its stealth for runs, for the blinds, for the single target dps.

Why do you bring a Mesmer? So he can use its utility like portal to move the team faster or reach certain spot, or use its reflection.

Why do you bring Engineer? Because he can give crazy vulnerability and a bit of everything, making the perfect swiss knife.

Why do you bring Necromancer? Well tbh, you don’t bring a Necromancer

Maybe these are not role you would like, but these are role. As a guardian in my party, I know what my job is and people expect that I do my job.

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Most great RPGs don’t have “essential roles” either, yet they have interesting mechanics and encounters. No RPG needs healers and tanks to have good mechanics, the Trinity is strictly used in MMORPGs, nowhere else.

Many games even class based shooters have it disguised in some way shape or form. The key here is that it is entirely optional because of how the game works and not mandatory.

The actually good RPGs don’t have mandatory role requirements either. Those who try to look like MMORPGs are the only ones that do. So all the actually real RPGs are NOT RPGs by that definition…

Sorry I am lost in this statement.

What I was trying to say was in regards to the trinity system and that a lot of games outside of MMORPGs actually use it to an extent with options.

A class based shooter with a heavy archetype and medic dictates a trinity level, what I am trying to say is that because of the mechanics of a class based shooter, it is not mandatory but we can see how it can work without a heavy being a simple metal rock that soaks bullets, of course that is one of the perks of using that archetype.

Gears of War 3 is also a prime example of this as the encounters involve the locust utilizing class based mechanics with heavies and support that bring up downed allies.

What I am trying to say is that because Guild Wars 2’s mechanics is more action game and less MMORPG like, it can capitalize on that type of trinity composition where it is a tool of engagement and not a mandatory system. This statement is also supported by new LS content additions. The stealth sequence with Caithe portrays stealth mechanics as a strategic role rather than a simple answer to skipping mobs which is again, akin to these shooters and other action games.

uberkingkong.8041:

You do play how you want.

It’s just with the developers making this game easymode, repetitive and all. Its just a lot faster to go full dps and breeze through everything.

I mean… They listened to you guys and tried to steer away from the meta by making world bosses harder, like SB more portals, tequatl you have to go through all the phases now, etc.
What you guys do when they tried to make it a bit harder so full dps build isn’t preferred?

You guys whined.

You guys are just as bad as the WvW community.
We want new modes, new things to do, server merges.

They give you exactly what you asked for, EotM, you guys whined.
People even whined about EotM not being like traditional borderlands WvW, they added siege disablers to help people play defense more often. Guess what??? People whined about siege disablers. People whined about EotM changing trends to bag farming instead of karma farming. People still whining about server merges, they merge servers in EotM.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Time-to-merge-populations/page/2#post4602340
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/New-trend-in-EOTM/page/2#post4597334
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Siege-Disablers-Ruined-the-Game/page/2#post4585398

Also just as bad as the PvP community.
We want deathmatch style games, we want new game modes, people to have to change there build/meta.

They give you EXACTLY what you asked for, Courtyard, you guys whined.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/people-are-leaving-courtyard-on-purpose/first#post4602422
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Why-Courtyard-why/first#post4603253

Nothing but a big bunch of babies whining. They keep listening to you, but your not the right person to listen too. They need to start listening to THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

I believe the context of the thread deals with the dungeon category and the community of said dungeon category, I do not know what EoTM or Tequila has to do with instanced explorable dungeon content.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

uberkingkong.8041:

You do play how you want.

It’s just with the developers making this game easymode, repetitive and all. Its just a lot faster to go full dps and breeze through everything.

I mean… They listened to you guys and tried to steer away from the meta by making world bosses harder, like SB more portals, tequatl you have to go through all the phases now, etc.
What you guys do when they tried to make it a bit harder so full dps build isn’t preferred?

You guys whined.

You guys are just as bad as the WvW community.
We want new modes, new things to do, server merges.

They give you exactly what you asked for, EotM, you guys whined.
People even whined about EotM not being like traditional borderlands WvW, they added siege disablers to help people play defense more often. Guess what??? People whined about siege disablers. People whined about EotM changing trends to bag farming instead of karma farming. People still whining about server merges, they merge servers in EotM.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Time-to-merge-populations/page/2#post4602340
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/New-trend-in-EOTM/page/2#post4597334
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Siege-Disablers-Ruined-the-Game/page/2#post4585398

Also just as bad as the PvP community.
We want deathmatch style games, we want new game modes, people to have to change there build/meta.

They give you EXACTLY what you asked for, Courtyard, you guys whined.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/people-are-leaving-courtyard-on-purpose/first#post4602422
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Why-Courtyard-why/first#post4603253

Nothing but a big bunch of babies whining. They keep listening to you, but your not the right person to listen too. They need to start listening to THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

I believe the context of the thread deals with the dungeon category and the community of said dungeon category, I do not know what EoTM or Tequila has to do with instanced explorable dungeon content.

Well you thought wrong, this thread is in the Guild Wars 2 Discussion, which is about all aspects of GW2 and not just pertaining to Dungeons, if it was meant for Dungeons it would be in the Dungeons tab, if it was for WvW only it would be in the WvW tab.

It’s a shame that the debate focuses on dungeons — they should be the easiest content to fix, since they are instanced constant with a standard party size, much like GW1 content. You don’t have to worry about scaling issues, unlike open world content, so you don’t even really need gimmicks like stability as long as bosses get some OP stun-breaks and stability.

They should be able to rework dungeon encounters so that they function more like PvP/WvW skirmishes, in terms of enemy HP/armor balance, skill rate, and use of standard player skills where possible (so that PvE is also PvP training) — especially using more boons, conditions, reflects, dodge/aegis/blind, heals, downed-state, revives, etc.

The Toxic Alliance events are evidence that it can be done in PvE with the tools they have — it’s a question of devoting the resources to polishing old content.

The best field test would be a new dungeon that functions like a PvP map, but with some story bookends — instead of a linear series of encounters and cutscenes, you have a smallish map with multiple simultaneous objectives — some are essential (holding all the points long enough to draw out the boss), others are optional but make things easier. At any given time, a smallish group of veteran NPCs is ranging the map trying to stop players and fulfill some competing objective. If you die, you respawn even if your party is not ooc. If the enemy achieves their goal, game over.

Maybe go up against the sinister triad, since that could more easily tie into an ABC point capture setup, and NPCs already have downed animations and whatnot.

Xander.9024:

That looks like Gumby’s horse. I forget his name though.

His name was Pokey.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Most great RPGs don’t have “essential roles” either, yet they have interesting mechanics and encounters. No RPG needs healers and tanks to have good mechanics, the Trinity is strictly used in MMORPGs, nowhere else.

Many games even class based shooters have it disguised in some way shape or form. The key here is that it is entirely optional because of how the game works and not mandatory.

The actually good RPGs don’t have mandatory role requirements either. Those who try to look like MMORPGs are the only ones that do. So all the actually real RPGs are NOT RPGs by that definition…

Sorry I am lost in this statement.

I misunderstood (reading comprehension ftl)

As a more action-based game I agree that Guild Wars 2 could look to other games (non MMORPGs) that have different roles, as inspiration ^^

The “trinity” in the game is DPS/Control/Support, Control and Support need some kind of boost in PVE

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

While true, a single player cannot put out the damage required to kill a boss before you run out of dodges (aside from thieves). Thus, building more defensively becomes optimal because those stats matter.

If you can’t survive in zerk you switch to a condi build (Rabid gear). The goal is still pure dps but through a different approach. Either way, 90% of bosses are perfectly solo-able in zerk gear. If you can’t then it’s a simple matter of “learn to play”.

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Most great RPGs don’t have “essential roles” either, yet they have interesting mechanics and encounters. No RPG needs healers and tanks to have good mechanics, the Trinity is strictly used in MMORPGs, nowhere else.

Many games even class based shooters have it disguised in some way shape or form. The key here is that it is entirely optional because of how the game works and not mandatory.

The actually good RPGs don’t have mandatory role requirements either. Those who try to look like MMORPGs are the only ones that do. So all the actually real RPGs are NOT RPGs by that definition…

Sorry I am lost in this statement.

I misunderstood (reading comprehension ftl)

As a more action-based game I agree that Guild Wars 2 could look to other games (non MMORPGs) that have different roles, as inspiration ^^

The “trinity” in the game is DPS/Control/Support, Control and Support need some kind of boost in PVE

Control and support are not standalone roles. They are provided by the entire team.

Deamhan.9538:

The root problem with the zerker is the lack of trinity. Every character brings enough to ‘support up to 5’ that if all the players spec zerker and stack, they can survive just fine and maximize dps.

Sadly, no. The problem is the lack of variety in encounter design. With many bosses being singular monoliths that exist as low-armor HP sponges, there is little reason to do anything else.

They attack slow, hit hard enough to murder a full-defense character, and often have wonky aggro rules that focus on the first person to hit them, so burning down a boss ASAP is usually the only real option.

As someone else mentioned above:
Make your own groups.
Identify your goals clearly (all welcome, story/cutscenes, etc)
Let the meta/speed players do what they’re going to do.

In the meantime, we’ll hope for more heavy-armor, lower HP enemies and use several mobs and discourage stacking. But no-trinity is not the problem.

Too bad Anet doesn’t separate how PVP and PVE react to condi damage (PvP keep condi stack limit), PVE remove the limit.

curtegg.5216:

Too bad Anet doesn’t separate how PVP and PVE react to condi damage (PvP keep condi stack limit), PVE remove the limit.

What’s ironic is that the reverse would cause fewer problems. Not for balance, mind you, but the fact the stack limits exist for server load purposes. Removing the stack in PvP honestly wouldn’t add much load, but in PvE, you would have obscene lag at world events, if not crashes. It would literally break the game.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I take it you’ve played literally nothing outside of a traditional MMO.

“Oh, so you think games are your ally? But you merely adopted the games. I was born in them, molded by them. I didn’t see the internet until I was already a man, by then to me it was only blinding. The games betray you because they belong to me.

Honestly, my first game has been asteroids on an arcade. I was hooked, and as soon as I could I bought my commodore C64. I have been playing games long before the internet has been invented, before “multiplayer” was a thing.

Over 30 years of gaming experience, I could write you a whole essay about the evolution of RPGs, the influx of early multiplayer and the whole development of MMOs.

Then you would understand, how games work, their limitations, the framework they give. Not in the mood though, it’s been a long day.

So for now, I will just say that I think people confuse in-character play with the term “role play”.

maddoctor.2738:

The “trinity” in the game is DPS/Control/Support, Control and Support need some kind of boost in PVE

Disagree. Support and control are insanely OP as it is. People complain PvE dungeons are “faceroll easy” and that is because of support, not DPS.

If there is a trinity in this game its…

1. Offensive buffing
2. Defensive buffing/reflects
3. Stealth and blinds

That’s the gw2 trinity. DPS, support and control is an assumption that organized groups make as a baseline, not a role.

I really want to congratulate Anet here actually. They have made a game that experienced players can master and refine into ever better levels of playskill. The best pve players have a refined “meta” and have defined the synergies and roles that make organized runs so great. The real joy of all this is that every instance in the game is ALSO completable by semi-conscious people who think using Guardian staff #1 is the end-all be-all of game play and click their endurance bar to dodge. The fact that the game can work for both groups reasonably well is really an accomplishment.

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Most great RPGs don’t have “essential roles” either, yet they have interesting mechanics and encounters. No RPG needs healers and tanks to have good mechanics, the Trinity is strictly used in MMORPGs, nowhere else.

Many games even class based shooters have it disguised in some way shape or form. The key here is that it is entirely optional because of how the game works and not mandatory.

The actually good RPGs don’t have mandatory role requirements either. Those who try to look like MMORPGs are the only ones that do. So all the actually real RPGs are NOT RPGs by that definition…

Sorry I am lost in this statement.

I misunderstood (reading comprehension ftl)

As a more action-based game I agree that Guild Wars 2 could look to other games (non MMORPGs) that have different roles, as inspiration ^^

The “trinity” in the game is DPS/Control/Support, Control and Support need some kind of boost in PVE

Support is HUGE. Every reflect, every Aegis, every Blind that completely nullifies any damage being done isn’t enough? I don’t agree. Support is huge, now many define support as healing, well they’re misguided, that’s only a single element of support, support is anything from defensive tools helping mitigate/nullify damage to the offensive buffs such as fury/might. Support is alive and well.

Control is quite powerful as well, my only issue is the intense amount of communication it requires to really maximize the use of it. Defiance stacks are a pain to deal with. When you’re stripping them miscommunicate in the slightest and you’ve just “stripped” 6 leading to 5 full defiance stacks again… It makes it basically an unusable tool in many PUG groups. If we could instead have maybe a 3-5s guaranteed increment after defiance is stripped before it goes back up, then we could look at using it without that high level of communication. But /shrug I doubt they ever mess with that stuff. Control is very powerful though, look at speed runs and what they do, it’s amazing.

Galen Grey.4709:

tom.7468:

Perfect balance is unachieveable but why can every other big gaming company pull of a decent holy trinity and some a soft trinity as in you can do trinity roles with multiplie classes like this game was advertised in the first place. It comes down to long cooldown and weak skills not even worth using.
I dont know why people try to build for anything else than damage in PvE.
And ofcourse dodging press v to avoid that obvious red circle.

Thats the answer right there….The holy trinity works because the game specifically limits you and forces you to take a role.

Think about the most successful holy trinity based MMO. There is no Zerger like meta class of course else it wouldnt be a very successful holy trinity based game. But consider why tanks build tank builds or why cleric build cleric builds? most likely its because dungeons / raids would fail if there is isnt a healthy mix of tanks and clerics… now imagine if there were no dungeons and raids in that game… what would happen? would anyone go for a tank role or cleric role? The rest of the content which generally makes up the bulk of the game content doesnt really benefit from a tank role or cleric role.. Questing is always a lot slower when done through a tank or cleric.

DPS is always the prefered faster way for solo questing why? because ultimately in most of these games what we’re doing is we have to kill stuff.. and its DPS that gets us there.

Remove the trinity barrier (ie that you can only have 1 main role per class) and things would change.. you’d actually get the same thing that we have in Gw2. Everyone would go DPS and perhaps just switching a bit to cleric / tank for the dungeons and the raid.

You also mentioned soft trinity but lets be honest, games that offer soft trinities still have the same issues, each class has its meta and the soft trinity is really just a gimick for anyone who is a min maxer and if you’re not a min maxer then gw2 offers much more roles then just zerker!

Why do people build chars that dont focus just on damage for PvE ? simple because its fun. Why do people pick cleric in a trinity based game? sure clerics are needed and that surely is part of the reason but lets not forget DPS are also needed and so are tanks. They pick cleric because they like playing a support role. They enjoy it. Now in Gw2 there is no content where you will fail unless you have people 100% focused on support but there is still a benefit to having support so why should someone who enjoys playing support give it up just cause it is not the most efficient way of doing things (which is debatable to be honest… in some circumstances having a mix of damage and support can boost damage to high levels then having just everyone focused on damage)

Gw2 is and has always been a game about freedom. Metas are exactly the opposite of that. Metas are about being the best you can be and there is always 1 best. A holy trinity based game simply forces people into 3 different roles but they still each have a single meta.

Problem isnt that in Gw2 Damage is the most optimal way to go… thats true in every single game. Problem is that for some whatever reason people want to be forced to play what they enjoy, they seem to be incapable of just choosing it themselves of their own free will.

I don’t think the trinity affects as much as people think. In most games with a trinity the class/profession you choose will decide what role you will be taking, whether its DPS, tank, or healing. In a game like GW1 there was a trinity but almost any class could fill any role. Yes I know some primary classes were tankier because of armor but the skills made it so anyone could do anything.

In GW2 every class pretty much has the ability to do anything also. Sure some classes are better at some things but most classes can fill multiple roles depending on build. The problem is that there is not any content that warrants having a healer or a tank. Since most dangerous things are conditions that can be easily removed and straight damage that is easily dodged, experience, skill and DPS will rule all encounters and dictate the meta. This is the core issue that those asking for zerker to be nerfed do not understand.

Until something is done about conditions and dodging the meta will stay where its at. I also want to say I am not asking for dodging or conditions to get nerfed. They just need to be reworked a little bit.

They should make dungeons where you can only fight using provided bundles that don’t take any benefits from your equipment, bosses that have attacks which do more damage the closer you are to anyone else (and are instant with no telegraph so unavoidable), and have all types of different mechanics to them. Maybe one that takes no condition damage but full direct damage, while another only takes condition damage, or one which is invulnerable for a while until you break off its armour, requiring survival over burning it down, and maybe some puzzle ones too!

Kaiyanwan.8521:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I take it you’ve played literally nothing outside of a traditional MMO.

“Oh, so you think games are your ally? But you merely adopted the games. I was born in them, molded by them. I didn’t see the internet until I was already a man, by then to me it was only blinding. The games betray you because they belong to me.

Honestly, my first game has been asteroids on an arcade. I was hooked, and as soon as I could I bought my commodore C64. I have been playing games long before the internet has been invented, before “multiplayer” was a thing.

Over 30 years of gaming experience, I could write you a whole essay about the evolution of RPGs, the influx of early multiplayer and the whole development of MMOs.

Then you would understand, how games work, their limitations, the framework they give. Not in the mood though, it’s been a long day.

So for now, I will just say that I think people confuse in-character play with the term “role play”.

Funny for someone with such vast experience in video games you don’t know what an RPG is.

Some definitions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

Notice that splitting “Roles” among group members is never given as an explanation to the “R” in RPGs. Maybe everyone else is wrong, and you are right, and that “R” in RPG means actually splitting roles among party members, but I honestly doubt it. Also, those kind of roles exist only in MMORPGs and not in other kind of RPGs, be it single player, tabletop or multiplayer (non MMORPG) games.

Oh and I don’t remember ever needing roles to play Dungeons and Dragons or any other tabletop RPG, or any other kind of RPG. The DnD 4th edition tried to put roles in the tabletop experience and failed, there is a reason fans of the franchise called it “MMORPG DnD”.

Did I need “roles” to play Neverwinter? (not the recent online, the older game) No I absolutely didn’t need roles, the game was playable and enjoyable in any combination of player characters because the focus of the game was the game itself, and not the end rewards.

uberkingkong.8041:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

uberkingkong.8041:

You do play how you want.

It’s just with the developers making this game easymode, repetitive and all. Its just a lot faster to go full dps and breeze through everything.

I mean… They listened to you guys and tried to steer away from the meta by making world bosses harder, like SB more portals, tequatl you have to go through all the phases now, etc.
What you guys do when they tried to make it a bit harder so full dps build isn’t preferred?

You guys whined.

You guys are just as bad as the WvW community.
We want new modes, new things to do, server merges.

They give you exactly what you asked for, EotM, you guys whined.
People even whined about EotM not being like traditional borderlands WvW, they added siege disablers to help people play defense more often. Guess what??? People whined about siege disablers. People whined about EotM changing trends to bag farming instead of karma farming. People still whining about server merges, they merge servers in EotM.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Time-to-merge-populations/page/2#post4602340
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/New-trend-in-EOTM/page/2#post4597334
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Siege-Disablers-Ruined-the-Game/page/2#post4585398

Also just as bad as the PvP community.
We want deathmatch style games, we want new game modes, people to have to change there build/meta.

They give you EXACTLY what you asked for, Courtyard, you guys whined.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/people-are-leaving-courtyard-on-purpose/first#post4602422
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Why-Courtyard-why/first#post4603253

Nothing but a big bunch of babies whining. They keep listening to you, but your not the right person to listen too. They need to start listening to THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

I believe the context of the thread deals with the dungeon category and the community of said dungeon category, I do not know what EoTM or Tequila has to do with instanced explorable dungeon content.

Well you thought wrong, this thread is in the Guild Wars 2 Discussion, which is about all aspects of GW2 and not just pertaining to Dungeons, if it was meant for Dungeons it would be in the Dungeons tab, if it was for WvW only it would be in the WvW tab.

What

The zerker meta only exists in dungeon content. The topic is about the zerker meta.

maddoctor.2738:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I take it you’ve played literally nothing outside of a traditional MMO.

“Oh, so you think games are your ally? But you merely adopted the games. I was born in them, molded by them. I didn’t see the internet until I was already a man, by then to me it was only blinding. The games betray you because they belong to me.

Honestly, my first game has been asteroids on an arcade. I was hooked, and as soon as I could I bought my commodore C64. I have been playing games long before the internet has been invented, before “multiplayer” was a thing.

Over 30 years of gaming experience, I could write you a whole essay about the evolution of RPGs, the influx of early multiplayer and the whole development of MMOs.

Then you would understand, how games work, their limitations, the framework they give. Not in the mood though, it’s been a long day.

So for now, I will just say that I think people confuse in-character play with the term “role play”.

Funny for someone with such vast experience in video games you don’t know what an RPG is.

Some definitions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

Notice that splitting “Roles” among group members is never given as an explanation to the “R” in RPGs. Maybe everyone else is wrong, and you are right, and that “R” in RPG means actually splitting roles among party members, but I honestly doubt it. Also, those kind of roles exist only in MMORPGs and not in other kind of RPGs, be it single player, tabletop or multiplayer (non MMORPG) games.

Oh and I don’t remember ever needing roles to play Dungeons and Dragons or any other tabletop RPG, or any other kind of RPG. The DnD 4th edition tried to put roles in the tabletop experience and failed, there is a reason fans of the franchise called it “MMORPG DnD”.

Did I need “roles” to play Neverwinter? (not the recent online, the older game) No I absolutely didn’t need roles, the game was playable and enjoyable in any combination of player characters because the focus of the game was the game itself, and not the end rewards.

How could you miss the “Then you would understand, how games work, their limitations, the framework they give” part?

Even in old Neverwinter games you had to create a character which defined your role. Like you decided to play a druid, you could no longer play the game as pregnant dolphin. You could not even roleplay a pregnant dolphin as a druid, because of the limitations of the game. In-character you were a druid. Done. Your role was to be a druid, whatever that meant.

In a multiplayer setting this changed, like a druid was bound to be a healer in vanilla WoW, but got more flexible roles later on.
So the “role” Druid became the "class"Druid with a variety of roles.

It doesn’t matter what the role is, what does though, is that the game will pre-define it as part of its framework, which on the other hand will limit the players freedom.

It has always been so in video games, and it will stay this way.

lol, don’t worry about it Chocolate. Reading the rest of uberkingkong’s post, his only goal seems to be to call people names and pick a fight. Not worth trying to find reasonable opinions from people like that.

There is no point in asking the meta to end.

Dungeons will never be worked on ever again. I lost hope for dungeons already.

Thaddeus.4891:

STRanger.5120:

Zerker meta is caused by one and only thing, absence of essential “roles” in PvE, aka trinity or similar system.
So until the game gets total overhaul, there will be zerker meta. Anet is clearly ok with that, so there’s no way to change that.

tl,dr: take it or leave it.

Why do you bring a Guardian in a dungeon? Because you need him to protect your team with blind, aegis, reflection, protection so the team will be able to stay alive longer.

Why do you bring a Warrior in a dungeon? So he can provide offensive buff to the whole team and boost their dmg with banner, empower allies, vulnerability, might, etc.

Why do you bring a Elementalist? For its dps, Ice Bow, Might Stacking, Vulnerability.

Why do you bring a Thief? So he can use its stealth for runs, for the blinds, for the single target dps.

Why do you bring a Mesmer? So he can use its utility like portal to move the team faster or reach certain spot, or use its reflection.

Why do you bring Engineer? Because he can give crazy vulnerability and a bit of everything, making the perfect swiss knife.

Why do you bring Necromancer? Well tbh, you don’t bring a Necromancer

Maybe these are not role you would like, but these are role. As a guardian in my party, I know what my job is and people expect that I do my job.

And we’re not even going to mention Rangers.

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You said it right there. Soloers. Because it is impossible for a single player to put out the sheer amount of damage to quickly kill a dungeon enemy, survivability becomes much more important.

You need to put out as much damage as possible to be able to solo dungeon bosses as you need to kill them before they can kill you = avoid as many of their attacks as possible.

While true, a single player cannot put out the damage required to kill a boss before you run out of dodges (aside from thieves). Thus, building more defensively becomes optimal because those stats matter.

I have never seen a video of someone soloing a dungeon without zerker gear*. Search for solo dungeon videos – they all need the damage.

.* Not saying it doesn’t exist since I haven’t watched that many solo dungeon videos and I’m mostly interested in thief anyway. Have watched some warriors soloing dungeons though – also full zerker.

Edit: And this game is designed for 2 dodges being enough. if people dodge randomly (like me at times) it’s their bad.

I solo dungeons without full zerk gear. I would post a video, but I really can’t afford any good editing software. Or capture software. Fraps really got on my nerves.

Zorby.8236:

And we’re not even going to mention Rangers.

LOL my bad. The worst part is that Ranger is my main character in tPvP. I play it almost everyday recently.

Let me correct that.

Why do you bring a Ranger? Because you want more damage buff and you already have a warrior.

Thaddeus.4891:

Why do you bring a Ranger? Because you want more damage buff and you already have a warrior.

You don’t have to do warriors first, rangers second. They are pretty interchangeable.

Jana.6831:

frifox.5283:

A mesmer can solo it naked, without any healing skills.

Nice, so that’s why they never show up in any LFG pugs, right?

LFG pugs wouldn’t recognize meta if it slapped them in the face.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Only thing I see about the meta that has to end is how universal it is. Every path will have a meta. That’s unavoidable. Having every path have the same meta, on the other hand…

They don’t have the same meta.

Jana.6831:

I have never seen a video of someone soloing a dungeon without zerker gear*. Search for solo dungeon videos – they all need the damage.

Not true. You have never seen it because most folks don’t have their own private server hall for storage of footage.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Weird nonsense about the age of the internet

A+. Would read again.

RemiRome.8495:

Jana.6831:

I have never seen a video of someone soloing a dungeon without zerker gear*. Search for solo dungeon videos – they all need the damage.

Not true. You have never seen it because most folks don’t have their own private server hall for storage of footage.

So? Don’t just pick one sentence of what I wrote and make a statement on that. And if people doing dungeons in soldiers or whatever gear they really should bring some videos to prove “the meta” wrong. I mean that, btw. And yes, I think soloing a dungeon in soldier’s or whatever tanky gear requires more skill than doing it in zerkers.

Edit: And by that I don’t just mean one fragment of the dungeon but the whole thing.

There is nothing to prove. It can be done and it would be slower.

Slow gimmick kills can be fun. Full completion not so much.

edit: actually there would be some value to it I guess. to see how much you can close the gap. the point would still be to go as fast as you can though which seems to be the main issue people are having.

lioka qiao.8734:

I’m more tired of the skip-glitch-stack meta rather than the zerker meta. Doesn’t matter what gear everyone runs, they all skip past all the trash mobs and seek out bosses only. If anet doesn’t fix the zerk meta they can fix this meta.

• Make trash mobs keep aggro unless the dungeon mechanic specifically requires you to skip them
• Increase their loot drop rate to make them valuable to kill rather than skip.
• Add mechanics to bosses which penalize stacking (like a small powerful quick firing PBAOE that instagibs if it hits more than 3 people)

I’m in agreement with you there. Dungeon runs are so cheesy the way they are now.
But I also think the Zerk Meta needs to be addressed. I’m not saying it should be destroyed — Zerk will always have a place. Unfortunately, no matter how much you all yell and scream that we can play “how we want”, it is really hard to do some times with the current “Go Zerk or GTFO” mentality.

But with damage being the only thing rewarded and most encounters being so bloody easy that even those players that are multi-tasking other things outside of the game can get by without blinking — I don’t see it changing. Its a sad thing.

Azhure.1857:

lioka qiao.8734:

I’m more tired of the skip-glitch-stack meta rather than the zerker meta. Doesn’t matter what gear everyone runs, they all skip past all the trash mobs and seek out bosses only. If anet doesn’t fix the zerk meta they can fix this meta.

• Make trash mobs keep aggro unless the dungeon mechanic specifically requires you to skip them
• Increase their loot drop rate to make them valuable to kill rather than skip.
• Add mechanics to bosses which penalize stacking (like a small powerful quick firing PBAOE that instagibs if it hits more than 3 people)

I’m in agreement with you there. Dungeon runs are so cheesy the way they are now.
But I also think the Zerk Meta needs to be addressed. I’m not saying it should be destroyed — Zerk will always have a place. Unfortunately, no matter how much you all yell and scream that we can play “how we want”, it is really hard to do some times with the current “Go Zerk or GTFO” mentality.

But with damage being the only thing rewarded and most encounters being so bloody easy that even those players that are multi-tasking other things outside of the game can get by without blinking — I don’t see it changing. Its a sad thing.

1. Make your own groups trumps “go zerk or gtfo.” So your point is countered.

2. Support is more powerful than DPS. so your other point is countered.

Thanks for offering an opinion though.

Jana.6831:

RemiRome.8495:

Jana.6831:

I have never seen a video of someone soloing a dungeon without zerker gear*. Search for solo dungeon videos – they all need the damage.

Not true. You have never seen it because most folks don’t have their own private server hall for storage of footage.

So? Don’t just pick one sentence of what I wrote and make a statement on that. And if people doing dungeons in soldiers or whatever gear they really should bring some videos to prove “the meta” wrong. I mean that, btw. And yes, I think soloing a dungeon in soldier’s or whatever tanky gear requires more skill than doing it in zerkers.

Edit: And by that I don’t just mean one fragment of the dungeon but the whole thing.

If you stick on a condition build for two of the bosses in Arah path 2, you will actually get superior kill times to using a direct damage build.

I haven’t got a full run of it because that would involve actually playing the game and wasting my time resetting to get a clean recording, but I can imagine it’s perfectly possible to solo the entire path in decent time if you used conditions on everything.

If you think soloing a dungeon in soldier’s takes more skill, I don’t even know what to say. Does forcing yourself to stay awake longer = more skill? Like, it’ll either let you mess up more and make more mistakes, or you’ll have everything down perfectly and you’re just doing the same fight but for 3x as long and dodging everything perfectly.

If not this meta it would only be another one. There will always be a ‘best’ when talking about PVE. For nearly 2 years people thought Rangers were the worst class in the game for PvE and I managed to do nearly all PvE content without issue or complaint.

You have 2 options:
1.) Find another group to PvE with.
2.) Adapt to fit into the meta.

I think the focus should be on making auras, control and half of the conditions/boons more useful. Not trying to make us grind more gear.

Canakun.8031:

I am so sick of this discussion.
There will ALWAYS be some kind of meta, because there will ALWAYS be a most efficient way of clearing content. ALWAYS.
You have the ability to go to the LFG tool and create a group with “any build allowed”. YOU HAVE THAT CHOICE. You are NOT being forced into playing zerk.
If meta groups want to play meta, LET THEM. You do NOT have to do so as well.

This frustrates me more than anything.

If you’re going to use the term ‘meta’ as a shortened version of metagame, us the term consistently! And to get mad at someone about metagaming when people like you use it at best ambiguously, and at worse incongruently is further annoying.

Leo G.4501:

Canakun.8031:

I am so sick of this discussion.
There will ALWAYS be some kind of meta, because there will ALWAYS be a most efficient way of clearing content. ALWAYS.
You have the ability to go to the LFG tool and create a group with “any build allowed”. YOU HAVE THAT CHOICE. You are NOT being forced into playing zerk.
If meta groups want to play meta, LET THEM. You do NOT have to do so as well.

This frustrates me more than anything.

If you’re going to use the term ‘meta’ as a shortened version of metagame, us the term consistently! And to get mad at someone about metagaming when people like you use it at best ambiguously, and at worse incongruently is further annoying.

Take your oxford dictionary AND GO BACK TO WOW!!!!!!!!!

and while you’re there you can help me with my garrison invasion event.

Azhure.1857:

I’m in agreement with you there. Dungeon runs are so cheesy the way they are now.
But I also think the Zerk Meta needs to be addressed. I’m not saying it should be destroyed — Zerk will always have a place. Unfortunately, no matter how much you all yell and scream that we can play “how we want”, it is really hard to do some times with the current “Go Zerk or GTFO” mentality.

But with damage being the only thing rewarded and most encounters being so bloody easy that even those players that are multi-tasking other things outside of the game can get by without blinking — I don’t see it changing. Its a sad thing.

Yes, the zerker “elitism” is annoying, but there’s also tanky elitism.
Making mobs not wothy of skipping is good, but it doesn’t really matter one way or the other.
Making boss mechanics harder would mean that those new to dungeons wouln’t stand a chance. My first words after my noob guild and I were wiped when we stepped into a dungeon were “And people really have fun doing this?”.
Making bosses so that only condi could harm them would create some kind of trinity.

Just because there are groups advertised as “Zerkers only” doesn’t mean you have to join them or there are no other groups. I did dungeons with my necro (full zerker) and with my thief (valk and zerker) and have never been asked to ping my gear and I have never been kicked with these two toons, but I never joined a party advertised as “full zerk”. And I didn’t wait for ages for a party suiting me. So, to me this endless discussion is some kind of made up drama.
And I actually encountered tons of zerkers in wvw lately and wondered if zerker gets the new meta in wvw as well “Kill it before it can kill you” – and that is a result of the crit nerf back in april. So, if you nerf it further I wonder what will happen.

“soloing a dungeon in soldiers takes more skill“ – Are you serious ?
Have you ever soloed a dungeon, have you ever compared berserker to soldiers !? I don’t know what you see as skilled but being able to facetank more hits isn’t skill for me.

Honestly, this one is a candidate for the statement of the year!

Even trinity games had the same goal in mind as GW2. The reality is that in those games you had to take a healer or a tank in order to—wait for it—maximize DPS. The tank gathers them up and keeps DPSers alive by taking hits, and the healer keeps the tank and DPSers alive to enable maximum DPS.

Even if GW2 added a trinity, berserker would still be the greatest thing for every DPS class, and the goal would still be to maximize DPS. People would still use stealth to skip unnecessary mobs.

If you want to change the way people behave, don’t mistakenly assume that the route to that end is by changing gear or nerfing zerker or something else. Things that need to happen in order to shake up the meta in interesting ways:

• AI needs to be improved and mobs/bosses need to be less one-trick ponies. Mordrem have been doing great things in the AI/mob design department, and if it keeps getting better, you’ll see other strategies being rewarded. Expanding this sort of design to past dungeons would result in varied tactics rising up to enable max DPS in the face of tough mechanics.
• If you want people to kill mobs, you need to make killing mobs worth the time. Currently, all dungeons have their rewards (tokens/gold) backloaded. ie. You get all the valuable stuff when you beat it, not when you kill mobs. That would have to change to get people to actually kill stuff (and the best part about it is that it wouldn’t force anyone to do anything! They could still skip mobs if they didn’t care about loot and wanted speed clearing, etc!).

For the record, there is nothing wrong with berserker gear philosophically. You aren’t an “elitist” when you wear it, and content can be done perfectly fine without it. The only thing it enables is for you to do it faster than with other gearsets… And let’s be honest: if you nerfed berserker gear, nothing would change. The meta would simply gravitate to the next best DPS gear and people would be hating on Knight’s or Rampager’s or Sinister or Assassin’s or something instead.

GrimmR.3541:

“soloing a dungeon in soldiers takes more skill“ – Are you serious ?
Have you ever soloed a dungeon, have you ever compared berserker to soldiers !? I don’t know what you see as skilled but being able to facetank more hits isn’t skill for me.

Honestly, this one is a candidate for the statement of the year!

It is actually easier to solo in berserker in many occasions. Those thugs that heal in CM? have fun dealing with that without the damage. Pretty much any encounter where quick take downs are preferred, full berserker is the easier option, the harpy destroyer in the grawl fractal is a good example of this.

Mossman is way easier in full zerker just for the sheer fact that you can kill the wolves in fewer hits.

I think the thing I would be more interested in is if traits were changed up more often so that the way we play changes to keep things fresh. It’s obvious to me we aren’t getting new classes anytime soon so why not vary the play of each class by changing how the traits work from time to time.

hybrid.5027:

Azhure.1857:

lioka qiao.8734:

I’m more tired of the skip-glitch-stack meta rather than the zerker meta. Doesn’t matter what gear everyone runs, they all skip past all the trash mobs and seek out bosses only. If anet doesn’t fix the zerk meta they can fix this meta.

• Make trash mobs keep aggro unless the dungeon mechanic specifically requires you to skip them
• Increase their loot drop rate to make them valuable to kill rather than skip.
• Add mechanics to bosses which penalize stacking (like a small powerful quick firing PBAOE that instagibs if it hits more than 3 people)

I’m in agreement with you there. Dungeon runs are so cheesy the way they are now.
But I also think the Zerk Meta needs to be addressed. I’m not saying it should be destroyed — Zerk will always have a place. Unfortunately, no matter how much you all yell and scream that we can play “how we want”, it is really hard to do some times with the current “Go Zerk or GTFO” mentality.

But with damage being the only thing rewarded and most encounters being so bloody easy that even those players that are multi-tasking other things outside of the game can get by without blinking — I don’t see it changing. Its a sad thing.

1. Make your own groups trumps “go zerk or gtfo.” So your point is countered.

2. Support is more powerful than DPS. so your other point is countered.

Thanks for offering an opinion though.

Thank you for being so delightfully asinine. I’m sure it was warranted, right?

You can “counter” what I say all you like but it makes my opinions no less valid for it. The Zerker Meta isn’t a perfect system. Yes, there will always be a meta and berserker is just the one that fits in the game at present. But why does the idea of opening discussion on improvements in that system be such a horrible thing? Why do you and so many others react so vehemently to the very thought? There could possibly be a solution out there that doesn’t send those of you that have put time and effort into ascended zerk gear into a panicked frenzy. It is POSSIBLE. Probable? No. But still possible.

DarkWasp.7291:

Thaddeus.4891:

Why do you bring a Ranger? Because you want more damage buff and you already have a warrior.

You don’t have to do warriors first, rangers second. They are pretty interchangeable.

Well, the Warrior give about twice as much dmg buff to his party and have about 20% more personal dmg. So there is a really good reason to bring a Warrior before taking a ranger. But they do pretty much fill the same role.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

GrimmR.3541:

“soloing a dungeon in soldiers takes more skill“ – Are you serious ?
Have you ever soloed a dungeon, have you ever compared berserker to soldiers !? I don’t know what you see as skilled but being able to facetank more hits isn’t skill for me.

Honestly, this one is a candidate for the statement of the year!

It is actually easier to solo in berserker in many occasions. Those thugs that heal in CM? have fun dealing with that without the damage. Pretty much any encounter where quick take downs are preferred, full berserker is the easier option, the harpy destroyer in the grawl fractal is a good example of this.

Mossman is way easier in full zerker just for the sheer fact that you can kill the wolves in fewer hits.

Well, i guess that’s a fair point. But i think that having to dodge/avoid more attacks takes more skill than simply having to fight longer while being tankier.

Berserker: Less space for mistakes. You need to manage your dodges/avoids.
Soldiers: More room for mistakes. You can fail a dodge and still be perfectly alright.

So for me personally; lacking DPS doesn’t proove skills, more like the opposite!