Guild Wars 2

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I want new dungeons can content but not doing the meta, I.E. exploiting AI in a corner (stacking) and spamming 1 in all zerker gear.

Zerker is part of the meta. Exploiting AI and Corner stacking are strategy (which can be good in some situation, but that a lot of ppl are using mindlessly). Spamming 1 is just a bad idea.

I think you regroup way too much stuff you don’t like under ’’meta’’.

I did every dungeon. I have my dungeon master, and I’m lv 18 fractal with 25 AR and seen every fractal and did them. I do open world more as I found a better way to make gold than run the same dungeon over and over doing the boring meta way of play. I only go back to a dungeon nowadays to get tokens for a skin I don’t have and i suffer doing it with you meta lovers.

Even then, I can just pvp now that I have every reward track open.

I don’t grind for gold in dungeons. I do them for a challenge. Standing in one spot even in fractals and killing everything AI exploited, and not doing the mechanics how they were intended, is boring and lazy and non-challenging.

I rather have a dungeon with 5 man puzzles, traps (guild puzzle style?), and doors— that seal themselves off Zelda-style until you kill every foe with good rewards and money— right now to have at least a semblance of a challenge. I did make this suggestion in the now dead dungeon forums and not one positive reply.

Goes to show who is not open to change and its not me.

I must be that jaded or want something new.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I did every dungeon. I have my dungeon master, and I’m lv 18 fractal with 25 AR and seen every fractal and did them. I do open world more as I found a better way to make gold than run the same dungeon over and over doing the boring meta way of play. I only go back to a dungeon nowadays to get tokens for a skin I don’t have and i suffer doing it with you meta lovers.

Even then, I can just pvp now that I have every reward track open.

I don’t grind for gold in dungeons. I do them for a challenge. Standing in one spot even in fractals and killing everything AI exploited, and not doing the mechanics how they were intended, is boring and lazy and non-challenging.

I rather have a dungeon with 5 man puzzles, traps (guild puzzle style?), and doors— that seal themselves off Zelda-style until you kill every foe with good rewards and money— right now to have at least a semblance of a challenge. I did make this suggestion in the now dead dungeon forums and not one positive reply.

Goes to show who is not open to change and its not me.

I must be that jaded or want something new.

Go do lvl 50 FoTM then come talk to us about Meta. It’s obvious you don’t do dungeons regularly from this quote so may not be familiar with all the hidden bits under what you’re classifying as “meta” eg CC skills and active defences.
What you classify as exploits is not an exploit – we have had ANET Dev feedback on hag hat is an exploit and what is not as general guidelines – Stacking and moving foes to a corner (out of line of sight) is not an exploit.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I did every dungeon. I have my dungeon master, and I’m lv 18 fractal with 25 AR and seen every fractal and did them. I do open world more as I found a better way to make gold than run the same dungeon over and over doing the boring meta way of play. I only go back to a dungeon nowadays to get tokens for a skin I don’t have and i suffer doing it with you meta lovers.

Even then, I can just pvp now that I have every reward track open.

I don’t grind for gold in dungeons. I do them for a challenge. Standing in one spot even in fractals and killing everything AI exploited, and not doing the mechanics how they were intended, is boring and lazy and non-challenging.

I rather have a dungeon with 5 man puzzles, traps (guild puzzle style?), and doors— that seal themselves off Zelda-style until you kill every foe with good rewards and money— right now to have at least a semblance of a challenge. I did make this suggestion in the now dead dungeon forums and not one positive reply.

Goes to show who is not open to change and its not me.

I must be that jaded or want something new.

So you don’t like playing dungeon. Big deal. You have stuff that you like to play in and other ppl have stuff that they like to play in.

If playing the meta was the only way possible to do a dungeon, then ya ppl trying to kill the ’’meta’’ would have a case. But right now they don’t need to play the meta. They can do as they want, but they also want to force their way to playing into other players throat.

TPMN.1483:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I did every dungeon. I have my dungeon master, and I’m lv 18 fractal with 25 AR and seen every fractal and did them. I do open world more as I found a better way to make gold than run the same dungeon over and over doing the boring meta way of play. I only go back to a dungeon nowadays to get tokens for a skin I don’t have and i suffer doing it with you meta lovers.

Even then, I can just pvp now that I have every reward track open.

I don’t grind for gold in dungeons. I do them for a challenge. Standing in one spot even in fractals and killing everything AI exploited, and not doing the mechanics how they were intended, is boring and lazy and non-challenging.

I rather have a dungeon with 5 man puzzles, traps (guild puzzle style?), and doors— that seal themselves off Zelda-style until you kill every foe with good rewards and money— right now to have at least a semblance of a challenge. I did make this suggestion in the now dead dungeon forums and not one positive reply.

Goes to show who is not open to change and its not me.

I must be that jaded or want something new.

Go do lvl 50 FoTM then come talk to us about Meta. It’s obvious you don’t do dungeons regularly from this quote so may not be familiar with all the hidden bits under what you’re classifying as “meta” eg CC skills and active defences.
What you classify as exploits is not an exploit – we have had ANET Dev feedback on hag hat is an exploit and what is not as general guidelines – Stacking and moving foes to a corner (out of line of sight) is not an exploit.

That’s back to another sub-discussion. “Exploit” is not the same as “Punishable Exploit”. LOS’ing enemies to get them to group up in your AE’s is certainly exploiting AI behaviors, it’s just as certainly not a punishable exploit or against the TOS.

Stacking to maximise AE’s and shared abilities isn’t really exploiting at all, I’d agree, although it behooves Anet to design in ways to make it harder to do. (In GW1 for instance, enemies moved out of AE’s instead of sitting in them).

It does lead to dull play though, until you get to the hardest content it tends to be extremely repetitive.

~~

The mention of high fractals makes an interesting point, kind of another inversion. In a high level Mai Trin fight, the cannons don’t legitimately care whether you’re in zerker or nomads, it still punishes the error instead of the gear. Up to about level 30 Mai is actually a zerker unfriendly fight though, it’s defintely handy to have more mitigation, she’ll occasionally overwhelm your active defenses.

And to repeat, the biggest problem is that some people insist on the ‘zerker meta’ when it simply doesn’t matter.

In a TA group it’s far more important that you actually know how to do the runs than it is that you’re geared properly. That’s definitely one of the places where a bad zerker in your group is an even bigger nightmare.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I did every dungeon. I have my dungeon master, and I’m lv 18 fractal with 25 AR and seen every fractal and did them. I do open world more as I found a better way to make gold than run the same dungeon over and over doing the boring meta way of play. I only go back to a dungeon nowadays to get tokens for a skin I don’t have and i suffer doing it with you meta lovers.
Do you want a cookie for that? It’s not about what you’ve seen. Seeing things don’t make you a good player. And even then it has nothing to do with the discussion here. Keep the bragging to yourself.

Even then, I can just pvp now that I have every reward track open.

I don’t grind for gold in dungeons. I do them for a challenge. Standing in one spot even in fractals and killing everything AI exploited, and not doing the mechanics how they were intended, is boring and lazy and non-challenging.
Google the definition of exploit. Then it’s more than just “standing in one spot”. Most times it’s even faster to kill enemies in the open. Btw. ANet said that stacking and using the terrain etc. are no exploits. That means that they wanted players to do that. Following that one is “doing the mechanics how they were intended”. Please take you time and either watch the game and how it works more closely or read through this thread were a lot of actually good players elaborated on this topic.

I rather have a dungeon with 5 man puzzles, traps (guild puzzle style?), and doors— that seal themselves off Zelda-style until you kill every foe with good rewards and money— right now to have at least a semblance of a challenge. I did make this suggestion in the now dead dungeon forums and not one positive reply.

Goes to show who is not open to change and its not me.
What about If someone wants dungeons to be like this. It’s not about what you want, but what the majority (and the devs ofc) want.

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

The ONLY foe which can be killed in LESS time than with zerker gear is the HUSK. Believe it or not.

hybrid.5027:

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

qft

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

That’s nice theory, as far as it goes. It’s speculative though, there’s a number of things that are more easily argued to be specifically bad for the playstyle I’m talking about though.

You have to be VERY on point to consistently deliver the damage, the tools you use in dungeon content simply aren’t reliable anymore.

At the very least it’s approaching the original goal. The difference is that we can’t mitigate the risk into meaninglessness, it would be too slow and inefficient to set up the situations.

And you’re assuming eventual perfect play. Some of the scenarios get extremely hard.

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

The ONLY foe which can be killed in LESS time than with zerker gear is the HUSK. Believe it or not.

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

there will always be a meta, something that is the best possible and most optimal solution.

The problem in this game is that the meta means full zerker IN ALL DUNGEONS AND ALL PvE

Gw1 had the idea of diverse builds and gameplay, and it still had its “Meta”,even tho it had 10 different classes and over a thousand of skills to play with (with any class-class combo)

But gw1 meta wasnt about only playing 1 out of 3 “meta” classes equipped with a full armor of specific runes that never change in any zone or dungeon.

Each dungeon had one or more “meta” team builds you can chose from, Vanquishing zones in hard mode were made easy with 3 necromancers, but you still couldn’t finish all of them with that alone.

Events had its own rules…

But the reason why that was different was probably cause gw1 had more diverse mobs and mob abilities, skill and spell effects compared to gw2..but thats another story.

TLDR: all games have a “meta” that is trying to use its resources and abilities to finish content in the most optimal and fastest way. Some games adapt their meta with team builds, other games adapt their meta with specific classes performing specific roles in specific moments…

gw2 meta adapts by trying to kill before getting killed. Why? Cause thats simply how mobs work in this game

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I did every dungeon. I have my dungeon master, and I’m lv 18 fractal with 25 AR and seen every fractal and did them. I do open world more as I found a better way to make gold than run the same dungeon over and over doing the boring meta way of play. I only go back to a dungeon nowadays to get tokens for a skin I don’t have and i suffer doing it with you meta lovers.

Even then, I can just pvp now that I have every reward track open.

I don’t grind for gold in dungeons. I do them for a challenge. Standing in one spot even in fractals and killing everything AI exploited, and not doing the mechanics how they were intended, is boring and lazy and non-challenging.

I rather have a dungeon with 5 man puzzles, traps (guild puzzle style?), and doors— that seal themselves off Zelda-style until you kill every foe with good rewards and money— right now to have at least a semblance of a challenge. I did make this suggestion in the now dead dungeon forums and not one positive reply.

Goes to show who is not open to change and its not me.

I must be that jaded or want something new.

What your asking for is gimmicks. Puzzles that may be fun the first time but when its repeated it just becomes a boring time sink. There is a reason Aetherblade isn’t a very popular dungeon while something like Arah is hugely popular in the dungeon community. One focuses on puzzles, the other focuses more on the combat of the game.

And GL 1 spamming lupi from behind a wall…

Windsagio.1340:

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

The problem is, it still makes a person in zerker gear who is skilled at dodging the ultimate expression of skill within the game.

Sturdier armor doesn’t change encounter dynamics, or open up a different way to render the enemy vulnerable, it just acts as a difficulty modifier for the individual player.

The game’s core mechanics lack a means of turning your inherent mitigation into tangible power to be used against the enemy, and as long as that is the case, the advantage will always go to berserker gear.

Being able to take an extra hit means nothing when you can’t really do anything interesting with it.

If this narrow path of mastery was actually implemented on purpose, it makes some of the game’s design choices questionable, especially having stats on gear.

If it does not actively contribute to improving you as a player within the mechanics provided, there is a balance issue somewhere in there.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I only know instances of using reflects where I frequent most, and Karka was the hardest foe that came to mind that needed a good reflect to counter. I dodge most projectiles even in low areas.

Reflect was used to block Kohler in AC (yet we just stack behind a wall now and exploit him), I used reflect in pvp/wvw when it was needed. Those nasty foes in Orr with projectile pulls? I got you now kitten! a la Scorpion: “Get over here!”

Forgive me for only giving the most dangerous example.

Sorry, but this really makes it hard to take your earlier criticisms of the zerk meta in dungeons seriously. Reflects are used constantly in good meta groups, pretty much every path. Reflects at Kohler aren’t really even used often in meta groups, with that wind up it’s trivial to dodge.

You hate something you barely understand. It’s sad.

Windsagio.1340:

That’s nice theory, as far as it goes. It’s speculative though, there’s a number of things that are more easily argued to be specifically bad for the playstyle I’m talking about though.
Which playstyle are you talking about then? I’m really interested in that.

You have to be VERY on point to consistently deliver the damage, the tools you use in dungeon content simply aren’t reliable anymore. 1. Why aren’t they reliable? (They still are). 2) You deal more damage with zerker. Therefor you are quicker and less foes are left who can damage you. Even mistakes rarely lead to one’s death.

At the very least it’s approaching the original goal. The difference is that we can’t mitigate the risk into meaninglessness, it would be too slow and inefficient to set up the situations. Just use blinds, CCs, immobilising-skills etc. => mitigated risk into meaninglessness. Simple as that. Sad thing is that many players just hit 1 and expect the foe to be scared to death.

And you’re assuming eventual perfect play. Some of the scenarios get extremely hard.
Actually they’re not and he’s assuming decent play, not perfect. There’s still a lot of room for mistakes etc, while still being able to get things done faster than with condis

Croc.5129:

Windsagio.1340:

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

The problem is, it still makes a person in zerker gear who is skilled at dodging the ultimate expression of skill within the game.

Sturdier armor doesn’t change encounter dynamics, or open up a different way to render the enemy vulnerable, it just acts as a difficulty modifier for the individual player.

The game’s core mechanics lack a means of turning your inherent mitigation into tangible power to be used against the enemy, and as long as that is the case, the advantage will always go to berserker gear.

Being able to take an extra hit means nothing when you can’t really do anything interesting with it.

If this narrow path of mastery was actually implemented on purpose, it makes some of the game’s design choices questionable, especially having stats on gear.

If it does not actively contribute to improving you as a player within the mechanics provided, there is a balance issue somewhere in there.

As a wise man said, “if you can always make 3pointers why would you ever do layups?”

The thing is, with the increasing incidental damage and general chaos that theoretical margin of error keeps getting smaller and smaller, and eventually vanishes.

It’s not every fight, nor should it be, but let’s not pretend everyone plays perfectly all the time and that everyone always has their active tools available when they needed them.

In the truly difficult fights sometimes you’re going to take some hits, and sometimes the only thing to do if you’re only running melee is to get out of the way for a while.

~~~

Honestly everybody seems to think they’re ‘that guy’ though, the one that can avoid everything. From watching people play, especially in SW, I think it’s more a case of self-selection. A zerker player with any kind of skill can (and often does) simply avoid entering those situations where they can’t perform. This isn’t judgement on them, it makes sense, and all content in GW2 is optional.

It does however warp personal experiences though, oftentimes you barely notice you’re doing it, and there’s a huge difference between ‘fine in every circumstance’ and ‘fine in every circumstance you take part in’.

Edit: Moka, your quote tags are terrible:

To answer the meaningful question the style I’m talking about is melee berzerker. It’s very high risk, especially with the high levels of CC and conditions in these encounters.

The tools aren’t reliable because you don’t have remotely 100% coverage. In a dungeon fight, especially with a stack, you can expect to be under somebody’s active defenses for nearly the entirety of the fight, and you’re getting combined buffs to make the fight time even shorter.

You’re assuming that you’re always going to have the defenses you need at the time you need them, and that’s frankly absurd.

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

That’s nice theory, as far as it goes. It’s speculative though, there’s a number of things that are more easily argued to be specifically bad for the playstyle I’m talking about though.

You have to be VERY on point to consistently deliver the damage, the tools you use in dungeon content simply aren’t reliable anymore.

At the very least it’s approaching the original goal. The difference is that we can’t mitigate the risk into meaninglessness, it would be too slow and inefficient to set up the situations.

And you’re assuming eventual perfect play. Some of the scenarios get extremely hard.

Its not speculative. I could do it first time i went up against those mobs. I didnt have to change anything and it was easy. I assume its the same for many others. :P

Windsagio.1340:

As a wise man said, “if you can always make 3pointers why would you ever do layups?”

The thing is, with the increasing incidental damage and general chaos that theoretical margin of error keeps getting smaller and smaller, and eventually vanishes.

It’s not every fight, nor should it be, but let’s not pretend everyone plays perfectly all the time and that everyone always has their active tools available when they needed them.

In the truly difficult fights sometimes you’re going to take some hits, and sometimes the only thing to do if you’re only running melee is to get out of the way for a while.

~~~

Honestly everybody seems to think they’re ‘that guy’ though, the one that can avoid everything. From watching people play, especially in SW, I think it’s more a case of self-selection. A zerker player with any kind of skill can (and often does) simply avoid entering those situations where they can’t perform. This isn’t judgement on them, it makes sense, and all content in GW2 is optional.

It does however warp personal experiences though, oftentimes you barely notice you’re doing it, and there’s a huge difference between ‘fine in every circumstance’ and ‘fine in every circumstance you take part in’.

I want more armour combinations to be useful. But I want that usefulness to be expressed through the mechanics of the game, allowing for defensive setups to take advantage of their sturdiness to put the enemy off balance and expose them for increased damage, or to have their mitigation matter more than the mitigation of a person armored up in gear meant to annihilate their enemies with the biggest stick they could find.

My problem is that there is no room for growth besides ramping up the damage. As a player, maybe you can’t reach that perfect gameplay in berserker armour, but the way the game is now, that relegates you to wearing gear that doesn’t help you kill the enemy faster, or help engage the enemy in another meaningful fashion that will lead to killing the enemy faster, but just to allow you to take extra hits.

Difficulty modifiers.

Encounter design is a big part of the problem too, but without a means of truly taking advantage of the other stats in meaningful, game changing ways, Anet will just put in more bosses that are immune to critical damage, an inelegent and blunt solution that sidesteps the root of the matter entirely.

Even with the living story, no matter what enemies they’ve added in, it all boils down to the same thing. Its boring.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

That’s nice theory, as far as it goes. It’s speculative though, there’s a number of things that are more easily argued to be specifically bad for the playstyle I’m talking about though.

You have to be VERY on point to consistently deliver the damage, the tools you use in dungeon content simply aren’t reliable anymore.

At the very least it’s approaching the original goal. The difference is that we can’t mitigate the risk into meaninglessness, it would be too slow and inefficient to set up the situations.

And you’re assuming eventual perfect play. Some of the scenarios get extremely hard.

Its not speculative. I could do it first time i went up against those mobs. I didnt have to change anything and it was easy. I assume its the same for many others. :P

Evidence my idea is necessary!

We have too many survival tools so some need to be locked up :p

spoj.9672:

Its not speculative. I could do it first time i went up against those mobs. I didnt have to change anything and it was easy. I assume its the same for many others. :P

If you’re talking about individual mobs you’re missing the point entirely. One of the features of the new content is throwing mixtures of enemies with mixtures of abilities. There are situations in-game now where NOBODY can survive for very long, but it’s not single enemies. It’s a scenario where too many different things are being thrown at you all at once (and note the bit about self-selection above).

The Characteristic of the old content is that you could pretty much reduce any fight to a simple manageable bite that you could mitigate.

Croc.5129:

My problem is that there is no room for growth besides ramping up the damage. As a player, maybe you can’t reach that perfect gameplay in berserker armour, but the way the game is now, that relegates you to wearing gear that doesn’t help you kill the enemy faster, or help engage the enemy in another meaningful fashion that will lead to killing the enemy faster, but just to allow you to take extra hits.

The answers they’re going with are incidental damage (which a lot of people hate) and combinations that make static mitigation less meaningful.

The extreme example would be radius ticks, ‘if you’re close to this enemy you always take X damage’. There’s a few of these, but it’s not an overall solution, it essentially negates skill and just shifts the meta.

What they seem to be going for is the controlled chaos: The theoretically but not practically fully defendable damage. In silverwastes, if there are 2 trolls with AE’s chasing you, 2 tetragryphs that have decided they like to charge a lot (and maybe 1 doing that AE damage howl), some husks to soak damage and send out immobilizes, and a thresher shooting roots everywhere, you can theoretically mitigate each of those effects, but you’re going to have to choose which ones, and you’re probably going either get chased out of the area or get downed.

Position can help, and using terrain can help, but there’s still just too much going on to mitigate everything. All of a sudden, behavior is more important than build. The melee zerker can be effective, but is going to take support or is going to have to clear out a lot to recover (or to split enemies). The person in knight or valk or whatever can actually stay in the fight a little longer, providing more of those group benefits and being able to get more hits in (although not too many more, it gets pretty brutal). They’re also less likely to be victim to the somewhat unpredictable threat in the game, and have an extra second if they’re suddenly focused by several enemies (which of course totally happens in that scenario).

It’s not perfect yet, but that seems to be Anet’s goal, and they seem headed in the right direction to reach it in their encounter design.

The problem is that most stuff has to be easy enough to faceroll zerk because that keeps most of the players coming back (or not getting frustrated enough to quit).

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Its not speculative. I could do it first time i went up against those mobs. I didnt have to change anything and it was easy. I assume its the same for many others. :P

If you’re talking about individual mobs you’re missing the point entirely. One of the features of the new content is throwing mixtures of enemies with mixtures of abilities. There are situations in-game now where NOBODY can survive for very long, but it’s not single enemies. It’s a scenario where too many different things are being thrown at you all at once (and note the bit about self-selection above).

The Characteristic of the old content is that you could pretty much reduce any fight to a simple manageable bite that you could mitigate.

It wasnt individual mobs. You can take on pretty huge groups if you actually pay attention and its not like you need to know what the mobs do, their tells are really obvious compared to older mobs. For the game to be genuinely challenging for the higher skilled players the average player would cry a river of tears at how hard it is. Im all for more challenging content. But i know that if we got it you would see far more “QQ too hard” posts than we have currently been seeing for the Living story releases.

Mordrem are barely any more dangerous than your standard old trash mobs. Yet everyone regards them as some massive step up in difficulty. I find that odd. They are well designed, they have more variety and they look cool. But they arent really any harder. Most fractal trash mobs are far more unforgiving than mordrem. And thats not even including the non vet trash mobs.

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

That’s nice theory, as far as it goes. It’s speculative though, there’s a number of things that are more easily argued to be specifically bad for the playstyle I’m talking about though.

You have to be VERY on point to consistently deliver the damage, the tools you use in dungeon content simply aren’t reliable anymore.

At the very least it’s approaching the original goal. The difference is that we can’t mitigate the risk into meaninglessness, it would be too slow and inefficient to set up the situations.

And you’re assuming eventual perfect play. Some of the scenarios get extremely hard.

Its not speculative. I could do it first time i went up against those mobs. I didnt have to change anything and it was easy. I assume its the same for many others. :P

Evidence my idea is necessary!

We have too many survival tools so some need to be locked up :p

If you think it was over abundance of survival tools that allowed me to do that you are severely mistaken. I was using necro and necro has pretty much nothing in the way of active defence. Positioning + awareness + adaptation > active defence spam. However against some bosses active defence is needed for full avoidance. So no your idea would be a bad idea.

spoj.9672:

It wasnt individual mobs. You can take on pretty huge groups if you actually pay attention and its not like you need to know what the mobs do, their tells are really obvious compared to older mobs. For the game to be genuinely challenging for the higher skilled players the average player would cry a river of tears at how hard it is. Im all for more challenging content. But i know that if we got it you would see far more “QQ too hard” posts than we have currently been seeing for the Living story releases.

Mordrem are barely any more dangerous than your standard old trash mobs. Yet everyone regards them as some massive step up in difficulty. I find that odd. They are well designed, they have more variety and they look cool. But they arent really any harder. Most fractal trash mobs are far more unforgiving than mordrem. And thats not even including the non vet trash mobs.

Well again, that’s my ultimate example of self-selecting. Not many people complain about the difficulty of a level 44 fractal or even Arah, they just don’t do it.

Similarly, if a fort is in truly bad shape in the silverwastes people will simply let it fall (there are usually a few that try to save it and die, and very occasionally you do a clutch save, all of a sudden the game shines again).

Otherwise I agree, they have to keep the base level content easy, because people at best won’t do it (ie dungeons, which are pretty easy and people STILL don’t do them much). There are spots of hardness that few people will engage in unless severely rewarded, and then you get complaints (LS2 achievements sometimes).

I’d disagree about the Fractal trash though. They scale to higher values than the mordrem, that is true. However they still have the same absolutely basic attack patterns. That kind of scaling actually supports the ‘zerk meta’. If the attack is going to put you down either way, there’s even less reason to run defensive stats. The challenge in the Mordrem is that their patterns often require player reaction in the way fractal enemy attacks don’t. Black powder won’t help you if you’re standing in the goo dropped by a spinning thresher, and things like aegis are stripped immensely quickly by the rapid root attacks or even a tetragryph charge.

~~~

And maybe that’s the point we can come to. Let me, for the sake of argument, agree that presuming perfect or near-perfect play pure-dps gear is simply better than hybrid stat gear. The vast majority of the people who push and play in the berzerker meta aren’t capable of near-perfect play.

If we grant everyone in this discussion and all of their friends are just that good, it’s still a tiny % of the population, and not the population this game is (or any game should be) designed for. For most of the population the zerk meta works because there’s a series of learned tricks in dungeons that mitigate all of the downsides of berzerker gear.

Even if the new content isn’t hard for all the perfect players in this discussion, that’s largely irrelevant to the larger scale design. People as awesome as us will thrive whatever the environment is.

EDIT:

Also, yes I know that pvp and wvw aren’t pve, but they put the lie to the player skill argument. If it were actually possible, Anet would make the pve interactions as complex and fluid as pvp battles are, and in those situations berserker gear is pretty much laughable.

There’s limits to what you can do with software though, so we can’t actually functionally reach that level.

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

That’s nice theory, as far as it goes. It’s speculative though, there’s a number of things that are more easily argued to be specifically bad for the playstyle I’m talking about though.

You have to be VERY on point to consistently deliver the damage, the tools you use in dungeon content simply aren’t reliable anymore.

At the very least it’s approaching the original goal. The difference is that we can’t mitigate the risk into meaninglessness, it would be too slow and inefficient to set up the situations.

And you’re assuming eventual perfect play. Some of the scenarios get extremely hard.

Its not speculative. I could do it first time i went up against those mobs. I didnt have to change anything and it was easy. I assume its the same for many others. :P

Evidence my idea is necessary!

We have too many survival tools so some need to be locked up :p

If you think it was over abundance of survival tools that allowed me to do that you are severely mistaken. I was using necro and necro has pretty much nothing in the way of active defence. Positioning + awareness + adaptation > active defence spam. However against some bosses active defence is needed for full avoidance. So no your idea would be a bad idea.

Oh I thought you were talking about champs at least.

So you’re saying you just side strafe? Regardless, I wouldn’t really chalk that up to adaptation. Trash mobs have always been easy to avoid since the start, but it does go to show that there is very easy active mitigation that is more potent than necessary. By the way you talk, you don’t even use them. Clearly needs to be dialed back. . .

Moka.8432:

1) A tip: immobilising and CCing helps. They are no kind of evil black magic.

You can immobilize and CC in Berserker gear too. Why would not being Zerker help with CC?

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Was thinking about silverwastes, have to modify my own position;

“Classic Meta” zerker is terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.

Silverwastes is in a lot of ways an inversion of the dungeon meta (excepting guardians who are always handy of course). It’s a brave new world where you can actually end up thinking ‘wow I wish I had more longbow Rangers’.

Except I’m a zerk warrior and I do fine in the silverwastes. I can faceroll up and down with no issues in melee range.

It’s not about gear, but skill.

Indeed, so faceroll one might say it’s…. Too easy?

I wouldn’t say it’s “too easy” since I’m not your average player to begin with.

It might be easy for me but for the majority of players there certainly has been an increase in difficulty since they released the new LS stuff.

The problem with “easy vs too easy” is that it really depends on where your player’s skill and dedication is at. I’ve only recently been giving this game a bit less of my time and have been practically playing the hell out of GW2 ever since release.

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

Why’d you have to go and tell him that. He seemed quite content with his conclusion.

Windsagio.1340:

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

The ONLY foe which can be killed in LESS time than with zerker gear is the HUSK. Believe it or not.

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

You do realize that people who are 100% on point exist – because they play this game for 8+ hours a day every day almost all year long yes?

So he’s not wrong. It’s just that these people are rare. But he is right.

They’re the ones who make metas, play them and usually get all the hate for being “those guys that can do stuff we can’t so let’s hate on them”.

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

That’s nice theory, as far as it goes. It’s speculative though, there’s a number of things that are more easily argued to be specifically bad for the playstyle I’m talking about though.

You have to be VERY on point to consistently deliver the damage, the tools you use in dungeon content simply aren’t reliable anymore.

At the very least it’s approaching the original goal. The difference is that we can’t mitigate the risk into meaninglessness, it would be too slow and inefficient to set up the situations.

And you’re assuming eventual perfect play. Some of the scenarios get extremely hard.

Its not speculative. I could do it first time i went up against those mobs. I didnt have to change anything and it was easy. I assume its the same for many others. :P

Evidence my idea is necessary!

We have too many survival tools so some need to be locked up :p

And how are you going to determine how many tools are just right?

People are dying in SW left and right just like Windsagio says. The average GW2 player is having a hard time in the SW.

There will always be people who can dedicate immense amounts of time to this game or any other game and thus become incredibly good at it.
You can’t use this as a fact to say " the game is too easy – we need to make it harder" because you’re only looking at a small percentage of the player base.

I’m willing to bet you far more people are dying in SW then in Cursed Shore for example.

This game is oriented towards casual players. The kind of players that aren’t going to spent thousands of yours getting their skill level at perfect or near perfect levels.

So you make a game that everyone can manage – but then the very skilled people will do very well in it.
Or you make a very hard game that challenges even the best of the best and find the majority of your player base flee in terror as their empowerment fantasy gets crushed beneath the feet of mobs.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

The ONLY foe which can be killed in LESS time than with zerker gear is the HUSK. Believe it or not.

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

You do realize that people who are 100% on point exist – because they play this game for 8+ hours a day every day almost all year long yes?

So he’s not wrong. It’s just that these people are rare. But he is right.

They’re the ones who make metas, play them and usually get all the hate for being “those guys that can do stuff we can’t so let’s hate on them”.

Shenanigans :p

Like I said elsewhere I think there are people who are 80% on point and knowledgable enough to avoid failure scenarios entirely :p

So this is a “Learn to play” issue with the game.
Dont make the game something it is not.

The ones who have spent time learning things are entitled to create metas (They Are uber dedicated and generally nice people and should be thanked for making things “easier” for all of us by passing on there infinite knowledge and wisdom instead of keeping it all locked away in the head).

I can think of many things where “meta” is used – eg strategy for Tequatl, dungeon runs, WvW, PvP etc etc

Once you learn to play that profession, strategy, build or technique – you may in fact be hating yourself that you cannot run it, find it difficult, wish you could do it like the pros.
These are people who have out time, effort, dedication and training into honing their skills rather than just mindlessly farming loots.

Thank you all meta creators out there pushing the status quo and thinking of new ways of doing existing things and mixing it up.

You deserve praise, admiration and a big hug – and I wish those nay-Sayers would realise you are just trying to help everyone out there.

People who want build variation and class roles should go play WvW. GW2’s PvE encounters are designed to be beatable by any build, so zerker/assassins will always be the best.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

The ONLY foe which can be killed in LESS time than with zerker gear is the HUSK. Believe it or not.

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

You do realize that people who are 100% on point exist – because they play this game for 8+ hours a day every day almost all year long yes?

So he’s not wrong. It’s just that these people are rare. But he is right.

They’re the ones who make metas, play them and usually get all the hate for being “those guys that can do stuff we can’t so let’s hate on them”.

I love those guys, no kitten :P
It’s been said million times, “zerkmeta” isnt problem, it’s old content and lack of diversity in encounter design.

I love the idea of people claiming that they hate the meta zerkers and avoid them at all costs and then turn around and try to speak of their tactics and ability, as if they were experts on the subject, in the same breath. O.o It’s so obviously just some kind of irrational, deep seated hatred that causes them spout off with silly things like stacking in corners for everything and not using reflects outside of karka. I understand being a counter culture hipster and all but what does how other people play have to do with you?

And no, the game wasn’t ‘designed for berserker’. The game was designed independent of gear and then berserker’s rose to the top as the most efficient in tandem with active defenses.

I still haven’t got any answers to my questions earlier about ‘what is the ultimate goal of this thread?’, ‘what would be some practical solutions to achieving that goal?’, and ‘what part of the current system has such a negative impact on your gaming experience and how/why do you not have the power to take control and change these things on your own without Dev intervention?’. Anyone care to honestly answer these simple questions? Insisting that there is a problem that needs drastic attention while being vague and coy about the what’s and how’s of the matter is not a way to have a meaningful exchange.

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Was thinking about silverwastes, have to modify my own position;

“Classic Meta” zerker is terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.

Silverwastes is in a lot of ways an inversion of the dungeon meta (excepting guardians who are always handy of course). It’s a brave new world where you can actually end up thinking ‘wow I wish I had more longbow Rangers’.

Except I’m a zerk warrior and I do fine in the silverwastes. I can faceroll up and down with no issues in melee range.

It’s not about gear, but skill.

Indeed, so faceroll one might say it’s…. Too easy?

I wouldn’t say it’s “too easy” since I’m not your average player to begin with.

It might be easy for me but for the majority of players there certainly has been an increase in difficulty since they released the new LS stuff.

The problem with “easy vs too easy” is that it really depends on where your player’s skill and dedication is at. I’ve only recently been giving this game a bit less of my time and have been practically playing the hell out of GW2 ever since release.

Yeah I was mainly poking fun.

If does come down to how dedicated you end up being to which then it’s kind of up to the individual what that dedicated energy creates. It seems some people’s energy goes right to inflating their egos instead of something constructive or personally rewarding.

There’s lots of words exchanged on what the game is was designed to be our what wrong with it but not many words on how to expand upon that design or help solve those problems. I’d also help if the community wasn’t always cutting each other’s throats constantly.

I guess I’m trying to say that gap might not only be a skill thing, because the game really isn’t that tough so long as you’re flexible and willing to listen, but who wants to listen to a kitten that’s full of himself whose main interest is stroking his kitten?

Then we just go in circles of the game being too easy but wanting more rewarding tough content. . . But the game is for casuals so there needs to be a steady stream of new content and dungeonsthat they can take on too.

TPMN.1483:

So this is a “Learn to play” issue with the game.
Dont make the game something it is not.

The ones who have spent time learning things are entitled to create metas (They Are uber dedicated and generally nice people and should be thanked for making things “easier” for all of us by passing on there infinite knowledge and wisdom instead of keeping it all locked away in the head).

HAHAHA you really should cut the flattery. Besides, knowledge is dangerous in the wrong hands as the rampant arguments about this ‘meta’ can attest.

But I’m going to assume you’re just joking in an exaggerated manner (infinite knowledge? LOL). You know if these gw2 virtuosos kept to themselves, perhaps the community wouldn’t be so ready to rend each other limb from limb yet and FGS might yet to be a thing. The only thing you really have to show for your knowledge is more virtual loot which I guess is something. . .

Tman.6349:

I love the idea of people claiming that they hate the meta zerkers and avoid them at all costs and then turn around and try to speak of their tactics and ability, as if they were experts on the subject, in the same breath. O.o It’s so obviously just some kind of irrational, deep seated hatred that causes them spout off with silly things like stacking in corners for everything and not using reflects outside of karka. I understand being a counter culture hipster and all but what does how other people play have to do with you?

And no, the game wasn’t ‘designed for berserker’. The game was designed independent of gear and then berserker’s rose to the top as the most efficient in tandem with active defenses.

I still haven’t got any answers to my questions earlier about ‘what is the ultimate goal of this thread?’, ‘what would be some practical solutions to achieving that goal?’, and ‘what part of the current system has such a negative impact on your gaming experience and how/why do you not have the power to take control and change these things on your own without Dev intervention?’. Anyone care to honestly answer these simple questions? Insisting that there is a problem that needs drastic attention while being vague and coy about the what’s and how’s of the matter is not a way to have a meaningful exchange.

That’s a convenient position to take, but experience tells. I’m not one to doubt the super-sekrit elite groups, but we have to understand what’s behind the whole conflict on both sides.

The essence comes down to pseudo-elitism on the one side and annoyance at being excluded on the other.

The people doing excluding in pugs are ridiculous, because, seriously in most things you’d want to pug zerk gear doesn’t matter in any meaningful way,

The other people are just as silly though for demanding to be included.

For the latter group: most groups don’t advert zerk these days, and let them isolate themselves. Everyone wins, and them being dumb doesn’t actually hurt you.

~~~

There’s not much reason to get hung up on it conceptually, but also no reason to buy into their position.

Does Anet even care about this anymore? This seems like a very big thread and it has been ignored. They divide their community… which is growing ever smaller… and focus on “Dying Story”… why?

Windsagio.1340:

Tman.6349:

I love the idea of people claiming that they hate the meta zerkers and avoid them at all costs and then turn around and try to speak of their tactics and ability, as if they were experts on the subject, in the same breath. O.o It’s so obviously just some kind of irrational, deep seated hatred that causes them spout off with silly things like stacking in corners for everything and not using reflects outside of karka. I understand being a counter culture hipster and all but what does how other people play have to do with you?

And no, the game wasn’t ‘designed for berserker’. The game was designed independent of gear and then berserker’s rose to the top as the most efficient in tandem with active defenses.

I still haven’t got any answers to my questions earlier about ‘what is the ultimate goal of this thread?’, ‘what would be some practical solutions to achieving that goal?’, and ‘what part of the current system has such a negative impact on your gaming experience and how/why do you not have the power to take control and change these things on your own without Dev intervention?’. Anyone care to honestly answer these simple questions? Insisting that there is a problem that needs drastic attention while being vague and coy about the what’s and how’s of the matter is not a way to have a meaningful exchange.

That’s a convenient position to take, but experience tells. I’m not one to doubt the super-sekrit elite groups, but we have to understand what’s behind the whole conflict on both sides.

The essence comes down to pseudo-elitism on the one side and annoyance at being excluded on the other.

The people doing excluding in pugs are ridiculous, because, seriously in most things you’d want to pug zerk gear doesn’t matter in any meaningful way,

The other people are just as silly though for demanding to be included.

For the latter group: most groups don’t advert zerk these days, and let them isolate themselves. Everyone wins, and them being dumb doesn’t actually hurt you.

~~~

There’s not much reason to get hung up on it conceptually, but also no reason to buy into their position.

How are you annoyed by feeling excluded from a group that you’re adamantly (by choice) not a part of? Sounds like a strange mishmesh of /feels to me. Put on your big boy pants, choose which play style you prefer and then run out into the world and be a part of that group. What’s stopping you from accomplishing these things? From what I understand, the only positive/new thing to come of this thread is that there is a new PHIW guild in the works that you can join. The last half of your post didn’t quite make any sense though. You say ‘they’ and ‘they’ like you’re in some "super-sekrit’ third group. Like I said earlier, quit being vague and coy, make a decision about what you want out of the game and then pursue whatever it is that you come up with. If you’re looking for happiness outside of yourself, you will fail. If you look outside of yourself to find the root of your unhappiness, you will fail. If you can offer anything tangible regarding my earlier few questions, I’m sure we’d all be delighted to hear.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

Does Anet even care about this anymore? This seems like a very big thread and it has been ignored. They divide their community… which is growing ever smaller… and focus on “Dying Story”… why?

The people who care about this, one way or the other, are not that large a demographic. Many posters in this thread have posted many times.

Tman.6349:

How are you annoyed by feeling excluded from a group that you’re adamantly (by choice) not a part of? Sounds like a strange mishmesh of /feels to me. Put on your big boy pants, choose which play style you prefer and then run out into the world and be a part of that group. What’s stopping you from accomplishing these things? From what I understand, the only positive/new thing to come of this thread is that there is a new PHIW guild in the works that you can join. The last half of your post didn’t quite make any sense though. You say ‘they’ and ‘they’ like you’re in some "super-sekrit’ third group. Like I said earlier, quit being vague and coy, make a decision about what you want out of the game and then pursue whatever it is that you come up with. If you’re looking for happiness outside of yourself, you will fail. If you look outside of yourself to find the root of your unhappiness, you will fail. If you can offer anything tangible regarding my earlier few questions, I’m sure we’d all be delighted to hear.

Well I’m not annoyed per se, I’d hope my posts in this would be clear enough that I think /meta is a waste of time. I’m in this thread for that reason. The ‘meta’ doesn’t need to die, it’s just a silly bit of fluffery, and I’m hoping to spread that message.

Plenty of people DO legitimately get mad though, as the OP shows.

Those that think the Meta has to end should come up with something better and end it.

If you don’t like something but take no action to innovate, to design, to create, or to influence change, then your opinion might as well carry no weight.

The world is full of people just unhappy enough to gripe and whine but just complacent enough to do nothing to change their lot. If you don’t like the Meta or the “culture”, do something about it.

The people who made this the standard are doing that every day. They make videos, they make guides, they push their times, and they do this in several aspects of the game. Some of the same people absolutely crushing it in dungeons and fractals also hold the record for kills on the Living Story bosses. The same enemies that are supposed “Zerk killers.”

They do this because they innovate. That’s the same reason most of you are complaining about “cheezy” strategies that half-decent speed runners have not used in months. If you think good players are pulling bosses to walls and stacking in corners, you’re either dreaming or you haven’t been paying attention. Watch some recent videos and see for yourself.

The corner stack was about using the FGS 4 to its full potential. With FGS out of the Meta, there is no longer a need to stack corners and lure bosses. Now times can be even faster! So, if you’re unhappy stacking in corners…don’t stack in corners. You’re playing the leftovers of an old Meta and you likely didn’t even know why you were doing what you were doing.

Windsagio.1340:

Tman.6349:

How are you annoyed by feeling excluded from a group that you’re adamantly (by choice) not a part of? Sounds like a strange mishmesh of /feels to me. Put on your big boy pants, choose which play style you prefer and then run out into the world and be a part of that group. What’s stopping you from accomplishing these things? From what I understand, the only positive/new thing to come of this thread is that there is a new PHIW guild in the works that you can join. The last half of your post didn’t quite make any sense though. You say ‘they’ and ‘they’ like you’re in some "super-sekrit’ third group. Like I said earlier, quit being vague and coy, make a decision about what you want out of the game and then pursue whatever it is that you come up with. If you’re looking for happiness outside of yourself, you will fail. If you look outside of yourself to find the root of your unhappiness, you will fail. If you can offer anything tangible regarding my earlier few questions, I’m sure we’d all be delighted to hear.

Well I’m not annoyed per se, I’d hope my posts in this would be clear enough that I think /meta is a waste of time. I’m in this thread for that reason. The ‘meta’ doesn’t need to die, it’s just a silly bit of fluffery, and I’m hoping to spread that message.

Plenty of people DO legitimately get mad though, as the OP shows.

Now if we could just have this same understanding with everyone, then threads like this wouldn’t go on for 16 pages at a time. Too many people confuse their /feels with objective facts though. So here we are on clone #3147 of the exact same thread. O.o

Leo G.4501:

TPMN.1483:

So this is a “Learn to play” issue with the game.
Dont make the game something it is not.

The ones who have spent time learning things are entitled to create metas (They Are uber dedicated and generally nice people and should be thanked for making things “easier” for all of us by passing on there infinite knowledge and wisdom instead of keeping it all locked away in the head).

HAHAHA you really should cut the flattery. Besides, knowledge is dangerous in the wrong hands as the rampant arguments about this ‘meta’ can attest.

But I’m going to assume you’re just joking in an exaggerated manner (infinite knowledge? LOL). You know if these gw2 virtuosos kept to themselves, perhaps the community wouldn’t be so ready to rend each other limb from limb yet and FGS might yet to be a thing. The only thing you really have to show for your knowledge is more virtual loot which I guess is something. . .

I think ignorance is far more dangerous in the wrong hands. Weve had evidence of that in the past. Fortunately most of those examples have since stopped playing the game and ceased the spread of misinformation.

Im not really sure why anyone would think its dangerous to share knowledge. Maybe the way in which they share it might be unfavourable but the knowledge itself should be valued, respected and shared. If you mean its dangerous in the hands of people who dont really know what they are talking about so they spread misinformation then I agree. But I didnt get that impression from your post.

Remove or nerf Berserker armor and everyone will just jump to the next most optimal set, is it really so hard to understand?

Here’s a better idea. How about Arena Net makes a hard content where every mob is equally as dangerous as Mai Trin scale 50 (with less HP)?
I’m willing to bet you’d all come here complaining and ask for nerfs.

^ This. It won’t matter what you nerf, the next highest dps will be wanted and in a couple of days someone will ask for nerf “X”.

At the heart of the issue is the inability for some people to do dungeons. This may be due to playstyle (or lack thereof..) or real life issues that make finding a group difficult.

I think eventually ANet will implement a version of henchmen for dungeons/fractals. They could allow you to use your alts and create your own group. They’d make money off of people buying more character slots (need a specific group for a dungeon…buy the needed slots and create it). The TP would also benefit from people needing to gear those characters.

I’m sure there’d be some cons to implementing this but it would fix some of the current problems (getting kicked, the “nerf this” audience) and I think it does cater to the more casual player which seems to be ANet’s target audience.

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

The ONLY foe which can be killed in LESS time than with zerker gear is the HUSK. Believe it or not.

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

You do realize that people who are 100% on point exist – because they play this game for 8+ hours a day every day almost all year long yes?

So he’s not wrong. It’s just that these people are rare. But he is right.

They’re the ones who make metas, play them and usually get all the hate for being “those guys that can do stuff we can’t so let’s hate on them”.

Shenanigans :p

Like I said elsewhere I think there are people who are 80% on point and knowledgable enough to avoid failure scenarios entirely :p

And your point is? I’m just saying the minority you clam to be a myth exists. People who dedicate all their free time to this game and are exceptionally good at it.

GreenJello.3041:

I think eventually ANet will implement a version of henchmen for dungeons/fractals. They could allow you to use your alts and create your own group. They’d make money off of people buying more character slots (need a specific group for a dungeon…buy the needed slots and create it). The TP would also benefit from people needing to gear those characters.

Yes! An entire party with the mad skillz of ranger pets and Varra Skylark.

I’m down with it. This might just be the challenge we’re looking for!

lolz aside, this would likely be more effort than just making a couple new dungeons, and we know how much of a burden that would be on the dev team.

Windsagio.1340:

Well I’m not annoyed per se, I’d hope my posts in this would be clear enough that I think /meta is a waste of time. I’m in this thread for that reason. The ‘meta’ doesn’t need to die, it’s just a silly bit of fluffery, and I’m hoping to spread that message.

Plenty of people DO legitimately get mad though, as the OP shows.

Well now you look like a geocentrist running around trying to spread the word that the earth is the centre of the universe.

You still gonna have to prove that meta is a waste of time. The only thing you were able to prove so far is that you are not good enough to be able to survive in Silverwaste and that you think that that’s hard content.

Maybe you don’t know that, but when fractal started ppl were doing level 80 with zero Agony Resistance were literally every hit could 1 shot you. And they were still doing it with zerker gear.