Guild Wars 2

Azhure.1857:

fishball.7204:

Well high risk is subjective I guess but there’s no arguing that zerker is HIGHER risk than say, Nomads or clerics facerolling.

Personally I only see the risk to zerkers/glass players in PvP/WvW environments. PvE and dungeons? Not so much. Oh so your dungeon took 2 minutes longer than you wanted? * sad face * Oh you died 3 times at this event? * pout * That’s just horrible.

There is certainly a limited risk level in the new age of PVE encounters. Long gone are the times of long corpse runs or having to restart content.

On one hand I miss it, it made you take things a little slower, made sure you had the plan together, and increased the tension during encounters. That was fun.

On the other hand, I don’t have the free time or desire to spend that time anymore, so I kind of enjoy it.

Way back when these changes were going on I think every MMO player knew and cried out that it’d change the genre. Once you have that convenience there’s no going back. It’s why when WoW first came out those oldschool players were calling it easymode, now WoW is considered one of the more difficult games because it still has a bit of that (last time I tried it at least).

I still wouldn’t call GW2 easy or no risk. Many encounters you can fail because you were .1s late or early on a dodge/block. While it doesn’t have a huge punishment (you just try again and all you lost is a minute or two usually) there is still that risk. I hate failing not because of lost time. I don’t care about my time when I’m having fun. I hate failing because I screwed up, and I don’t enjoy failing, but I take that as a lesson and try to improve for the next attempt.

GW2 lacks content though, and I can’t help but feel whatever they did to scaling in April should be reverted so that the lower level dungeons aren’t so easy to breeze through killing the bosses in a couple seconds before the fight really even begins. I do love the higher level dungeons, the ones that put pressure on me to do well and execute properly. The combat is enjoyable and to me more enjoyable in zerk because it is high risk/high reward. I could go tanky and just heal myself like you see in that hour long Lupi solo of warrior in nomads but that’s not the excitement I enjoy. When I first started I was soldier becuase I was still dying in that, as I got better that became too easy and I found zerk more enjoyable. At this point most encounters are simply either annoying (I hate enemies that are so small you can’t see the tells) or just boring because I’ve basically perfected the encounter.

I’d love some new difficult content. I’d love a new Lupi. But, I’m not holding my breath.

spoj.9672:

Its still more risk than going for passive defence. How do you not see that? o_o

So the risk vs reward is working correctly. But the max risk isnt high enough. Thats true. But thats nothing to do with the meta.

The kill speed discussion is relevant though, if killing faster is less margin for error, killing faster under black powder is even less.

Goes back to the quesiton too, why is it so important that it be harder? Is this some kind of ‘I can do it the hard way’ contest?

If it’s easier it has more reason to be meta :p

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Its still more risk than going for passive defence. How do you not see that? o_o

So the risk vs reward is working correctly. But the max risk isnt high enough. Thats true. But thats nothing to do with the meta.

The kill speed discussion is relevant though, if killing faster is less margin for error, killing faster under black powder is even less.

Goes back to the quesiton too, why is it so important that it be harder? Is this some kind of ‘I can do it the hard way’ contest?

If it’s easier it has more reason to be meta :p

No it’s not for bragging rights…

Fast clears=fun+more loot
PHIW clears=/=fastest
PHIW clears=/=fun+most loot
Easy=irrelevant

Try a full dungeon tour with a PHIW PuG someday. The notion that it’s only a 2 min difference is grossly exaggerated.

Windsagio.1340:

why is it so important that it be harder?

Because rewarding passive defense play like this will turn dungeons into bigger loot pinatas than they already are.

If it’s easier it has more reason to be meta :p

Forgive me for saying that I want the game to encourage players to play more like this than like the video I posted before.

We could nerf Ice Bow like we nerfed FGS. But remember what happened when that nerf hit? The speed run community adapted within minutes/hours while PuG AC groups are still disbanding at Spider Queen.

The DPS lead that Berserker gear has over other gear means that right now zerker gear is all that most of us filter for. If you can’t stack might…if you can’t weapon swap, if you suck with utility skills…welp, at least you still have zerker gear and the correct weapon.

Narrow that lead too much, and the filters will change to something that not every player will have a choice in.

doesn’t particularly explain all the emphasis on how hard it actually is.

Also, don’t assume everyone sees fun the way you do,

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

why is it so important that it be harder?

Because rewarding passive defense play like this will turn dungeons into bigger loot pinatas than they already are.

If it’s easier it has more reason to be meta :p

Forgive me for saying that I want the game to encourage players to play more like this than like the video I posted before.

We could nerf Ice Bow like we nerfed FGS. But remember what happened when that nerf hit? The speed run community adapted within minutes/hours while PuG AC groups are still disbanding at Spider Queen.

The DPS lead that Berserker gear has over other gear means that right now zerker gear is all that most of us filter for. If you can’t stack might…if you can’t weapon swap, if you suck with utility skills…welp, at least you still have zerker gear and the correct weapon.

Narrow that lead too much, and the filters will change to something that not every player will have a choice in.

That’s part 2, most groups don’t filter for zerker anymore. I was looking at 30s Fractal pugs earlier (to do one), and saw 1 group that demanded ‘zerk melee’ out of 4-5 groups in the time I was looking. It took forever to fill too.

I also don’t think I’ve had a pug disband for months regardless of makeup. Maybe I’m awesome and/or lucky though

Windsagio.1340:

That’s part 2, most groups don’t filter for zerker anymore. I was looking at 30s Fractal pugs earlier (to do one), and saw 1 group that demanded ‘zerk melee’ out of 4-5 groups in the time I was looking. It took forever to fill too.

/shrug

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

Back on topic, though, content is getting more and more stale (and relatively more and more easy), so my point sort of applies here. As stuff becomes easier for the masses, the people will adjust accordingly by strengthening their filters (because it will no longer take impossibly long to get players who meet the stricter requirements).

Tighter filters will come in the form of AP requirements, class requirements, mechanics requirements (i.e., might stacking), gear check, trait/utility/food check, watching your rotations in game, full melee, etc etc. Or they may simply stop using LFG, leaving fewer groups for the less connected.

Zerk gear isn’t something to brag about, it’s pretty standard, being happy that you can do it sure, but it’s nothing special. It is more of a challenge than other builds and more effective assuming you’re surviving fine, which is very doable. Using tanky gear you just increase the amount of mistakes you can make by boosting your passive defense. Condi builds simply don’t work in dungeon groups due to the issues with condi in general.

The Meta as most people define it is not counting ease of play. It was a problem I had with it initially entering the game. There are easier ways to play that are still very effective. Thing is that’s a subjective look at the idea of Meta. If you strip the ease of play out of the equation then you’re looking only at the time you spend, that’s what GW2’s PVE Meta is about.

Personally I think Ease of play is something to look at. To me taking an extra minute or two for a dungeon isn’t a big deal. And lowering your damage isn’t as big of an impact as many make it out to be, much of every dungeon is movement. Mesmers may be lower on the DPS but their portals make up for it in dungeons for example.

Me an my buddies were all about what we called “braindead meta” in that it took very little effort and lots of room for mistakes. One shots, yeah we were dead, but take a hammer guard in a dungeon and all the little things hit like you’re in PVT even if you’re in zerk basically. So we did Hammer Guard, PS warrior, then filled in the rest, ideally Ele for perma fury and such.

As we got better though we dropped the hammer and moved more towards the accepted Meta, as we got better we didn’t need as many defensive tools, certainly not passive defense from protection. It was fun to be a bit more risky as the dungeons got boring doing it the easier way and having that safety net.

In casual groups or PUGs playing a bit off meta is fine, you are still going to greatly benefit from zerker gear but making some trait, utility and weapon choices can make things much easier.

I still value ease of play but as I got better what I found easy had less and less defensive tools. The only problem with the current situation IMO is the lower level dungeons where zerker is arguably easier as you can kill things before they can react. I think that’s pretty lame. But that’s not a zerker problem, thats the content and scaling, I know SQ kills got a lot faster after April’s patch, at least my group saw a big jump in kill times, not that they were long before.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

That’s part 2, most groups don’t filter for zerker anymore. I was looking at 30s Fractal pugs earlier (to do one), and saw 1 group that demanded ‘zerk melee’ out of 4-5 groups in the time I was looking. It took forever to fill too.

/shrug

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

Back on topic, though, content is getting more and more stale (and relatively more and more easy), so my point sort of applies here. As stuff becomes easier for the masses, the people will adjust accordingly by strengthening their filters (because it will no longer take impossibly long to get players who meet the stricter requirements).

Tighter filters will come in the form of AP requirements, class requirements, mechanics requirements (i.e., might stacking), gear check, trait/utility/food check, watching your rotations in game, full melee, etc etc. Or they may simply stop using LFG, leaving fewer groups for the less connected.

Haven’t had a fractal fail in like forever either, and the ones that do are usually low level. Fractals (over 12-14) are one of those things where they self-select people able to do fractals :p

As I’ve said, I’m to some degree happy to have the folks you’re talking about filter themselves out of the gene pool, It makes them happy and it makes everyone else happy.

It’s really a win-win in the long run.

Of course someone siding with Nemesis would think it’s a great video.

Lindbur.2537:

Of course someone siding with Nemesis would think it’s a great video.

there is a fragment I luckily by random time press caught
it’s something like
- If completion of dungeon has to take around 30mins or an hour, it takes 5 mins or even less due to exploits people use. And what’s more, it appears that everyone are using it.

I agree with it, because it’s a rush for rewards like someone already has said before.
But then, it makes people being hypocrites, because they blame Anet for lack of content meanwhile, they simply skip 3/4 of the content just to get a reward.

I understand that there may be people who do content fully etc. But it’s unnoticeable minority.

Tao.5096:

Lindbur.2537:

Of course someone siding with Nemesis would think it’s a great video.

there is a fragment I luckily by random time press caught
it’s something like
- If completion of dungeon has to take around 30mins or an hour, it takes 5 mins or even less due to exploits people use. And what’s more, it appears that everyone are using it.

I agree with it, because it’s a rush for rewards like someone already has said before.
But then, it makes people being hypocrites, because they blame Anet for lack of content meanwhile, they simply skip 3/4 of the content just to get a reward.

I understand that there may be people who do content fully etc. But it’s unnoticeable minority.

The “exploits” are a touchy thing, and really subjective, so I’ll avoid that bit.

Yes, dungeons really are just a rush for rewards now, because the content has been out for over 2 years now. It’s stale and we’re bored of it, no surprise there. That’s why we’d rather just get it over with. If I were to give you George Orwell’s Animal Farm and tell you to read it every day for 2 years, how long would it take you to simply start flipping through the book because you’re bored of it and know its contents by heart?

I’m not going to stick my nose in between Nemesis and his detractors.

That said, I have a question about the video links he shows with Kohler and Lupi quick kills. What are kill speeds like post FGS nerf?

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’m not going to stick my nose in between Nemesis and his detractors.

That said, I have a question about the video links he shows with Kohler and Lupi quick kills. What are kill speeds like post FGS nerf?

IB is the big thing now, but even without it kohler can die in a few seconds with normal DPS rotations and no Ele. (read before or during his big attack he’s already dead)

Lupi the new thing is to utilize the wall to get your reflect above his chest so you reflect every projectile, guardians with consecrated grounds on the wall, and mesmers free targetting (no target chosen just aiming it right) feedback. Even without that though we’re probably talking like a minute at most for a high dps group I’d think.

About the same but you dont need to LoS him. Assuming you do it right. Most people LoS anyway so they can stack might as he approaches and prevent him from darting around with his evade auto attack. But you can just use icebow 5 instead.

Gotta go back though; speed runners aren’t the issue, the issue is random pug advertisements.

In not-optimized-even-if-geared-zerk groups the whole meta discussion is silly, it simply doesn’t matter in a meaningful way.

The funny thing is that most of the people arguing so strong on behalf of the meta are people like Spoj, who I can’t imagine spends a ton of time doing random pugs anyways.

I have good reason to argue against changes demanded by ignorance. Hard roles and traditional trinity is what many people want. I absolutely dont want the game to be ruined when anet listens to those people. Especially when what they are asking for wont actually make them any happier. It will probably make them less happy due to even more exclusion, elitism and new meta requirements etc.

And i dont play that actively anymore. But when i do log on I quite often pug a few paths.

Windsagio.1340:

Gotta go back though; speed runners aren’t the issue, the issue is random pug advertisements.

In not-optimized-even-if-geared-zerk groups the whole meta discussion is silly, it simply doesn’t matter in a meaningful way.

The funny thing is that most of the people arguing so strong on behalf of the meta are people like Spoj, who I can’t imagine spends a ton of time doing random pugs anyways.

I think you’ll find that players like spoj and other people adamant about their enjoyment in the current system do often pug. It’s more enjoyable, and these people in my experience don’t usually ask for zerk.

Quite honestly I enjoy the random pug more than a perfect group with buddies. When I go into a dungeon expecting perfection as I do with a set group any hiccup annoys me. When I go in with a PUG expecting the worst it motivates me to play better and if things go wrong, ohh well I expected that.

That doesn’t mean that I want my premade groups to set up like pugs, that’d just take longer and the chaotic nature of PUGs wouldn’t be there, and that’s what spices PUG groups up, the miscommunications or lack of communication all together. So the fun doesn’t come from unoptimized setups but the nature of PUG groups themselves.

Verificus.4320:

It will all come down to trait builds, rotation/build execution, individual player skill (positioning, reflexes, awareness, adaptation etc) and knowledge of encounters. And as it is already now, coordination, prepping, communication and planning.

Stats are an archaic concept dating from when people considered it a fun thing to have to allocate points everytime you leveled up. It was fun because you could let your mage take strength points instead of intelligence so you could create a battle mage!
Outdated if you ask me. In GW2 the cool thing is any class can fill any role. Or learn every roll rather. If you make fights that require a battlemage type character then introduce traits that allow players to switch to that playstyle for a specific encounter but at the same time if there is a fight where ‘zerk’ is better, let traits allow that too. Then, a character in an MMO becomes a tool of a player, an extension of their skills in the game. Rather than some kind of iconic warrior/mage/rogue. In an MMO that uses a system that I laid out here, a good player will be able to effectively use all styles of play that the traits and class design allow. A player that competes at the highest level of PvE will be able to actively adapt to any encounter.

A concern might be too much homogenization, but thats where class design and gimmicks come in to play. Just because an ele can share almost the same amount of different boons a guardian can, just because an ele can also condition clear and blind stuff, doesn’t at all mean they feel as the same class. Each have different mechanics. Attunements feels vastly different than guards. So even if you homogenize by getting rid of stats, basing everything on traits the uniqueness of classes remains. We will however have alot more balanced and varied gameplay, provided the encounters are also designed well enough that they don’t invalidate 49 out of 50 traits in a trait line.

I like a lot of the ideas you posted there. I’m actually starting to think maybe another thread is necessary since we kind of strayed away from the OPs intent and more discussion on ideas should be the focus, but too much dialog baggage exists for it in this thread.

That said, I don’t think all mmos should gravitate to this ideal, especially not for the reasons you mention in the quote.

A lot of people enjoy the act of character building, which your concept is devoid of completly. When characters cease to be characters and only tools, you no longer have an RPG.

Also in regards to the plethora of traits, do you think that concept would work meaningfully? In my eyes, the ability to swap around traits for any given situation is likely why you have watered down and less than useful traits. Personally, I like my build decisions to have impact that makes a decent enough shift in my play that it’s a practically different experience so deserves nearly a new character to fully enjoy, not just some niche trait that does one specific thing for a select few encounters. Traits like Stone Heart is close to the type of stuff I want to see, while stuff like Tempest Defence or Powerful Auras are wanting… and that’s for every trait including adept! Dipping into every trait line shouldn’t leave you with a bunch of weaker traits that barely alter your character.

I just feel if there’s were 50 traits in a line and you could simply swap between whichever whenever, you’re basically going to have to make them all boring.

Windsagio.1340:

Gotta go back though; speed runners aren’t the issue, the issue is random pug advertisements.

In not-optimized-even-if-geared-zerk groups the whole meta discussion is silly, it simply doesn’t matter in a meaningful way.

The funny thing is that most of the people arguing so strong on behalf of the meta are people like Spoj, who I can’t imagine spends a ton of time doing random pugs anyways.

Nope, most of us are actually the ones who pug the most – and it’s this very reason why we’re arguing so adamantly – a way I’d describe this game’s combat is “independence over interdependence” where if your team sucks you don’t have to think oh well the tank died I guess we have to reset or kick and fetch another, if you’re good enough yourself you can solo whatever is causing the party trouble. In a trinity game, if your healer dies, or your tank dies, or your dps dies … well things get very pear-shaped, and I wouldn’t want that sort of forced reliance in GW2.

—

To me, after reading all of this thread, it sounds like people aren’t complaining about “meta” (delete this one and it’ll be replaced with another, it’s a never ending cycle), the actual complaint is with … people. “people” discriminate against non-berserker gear. “people” call non-berserkers bad. “people” don’t want to play with “play how you wants”. The problem here is not something you solve by cutting DPS with a sledgehammer or deleting offensive gear, the problem is human nature itself, is something ANet will never be able to fix and I wish people would stop trying to argue about it .

Think about it. Let’s say that a condition guy and a “support” guy is suddenly needed in groups. what then? “lf 3 zerkers 1 support 1 condi”. Oh, they have 3 direct damage guys but I want to do direct damage … KICK. Oh, well I guess you can argue “well I guess this makes more playstyles available blahblah diversity”. But if the mobs die in exactly the same time, and all players are just maximising their own damage via rotations like usual, then how is this suddenly better? The fact that for one guy they have smaller numbers appearing on their screen and the other guy has absolutely dreadfully small numbers appearing on their screen?

Someone just whispered me and threatened to end my life over this post… so sad.

Harper.4173:

heartless.6803:

Harper.4173:

heartless.6803:

I think part of the problem is how things are designed for any group setup. It wasn’t designed to need a support character. Because of that and how good dodging is when you know how to use it, you can completely negate the need of a support role. When you don’t need support, or a tank and healer if you’re thinking trinity, then the makeup becomes take only the absolute best dps.

It’s like the tourney, nobody wants celes ele’s and engi’s to be the new “it meta” just like nobody wants zerker warriors to be the meta. Nobody likes being told that just because they’re a bunker guardian or a support staff guardian that they’re not wanted because they’re not the meta.

A-net has to do a better job of breaking metas or bringing them closer in line with the rest.

People will be told they’re not wanted regardless of what meta is in effect or what roles are or are not in the game.

It’s the nature of MMOs. Take what you need – throw away anything else.

You can’t break a meta – the concept of meta if understood correctly implies there will always be one.

Bringing them closer in line to what? The rest of what? And why? So bad players can feel better about themselves?

You should never be labeled a bad player for not following the meta build. Thats the problem with this game. If you don’t follow the meta you’re a bad. The problem isn’t the players the problem is the meta. It needs to be broken and brought down to the rest of other builds, that need to be brought up.

A game with a huge diversity such as this game, shouldn’t be seeing the exact same things all the time.

You’re bad not necessarily because you can’t play well but because you’re not playing for the right reasons.

Right reasons to play GW2 as seen by the majority of meta players are :

-Bragging rights for super fast runs
-Tons of loot very fast.

If it’s not these reasons then people won’t play with you. And they have every right to.
I don’t care if the world’s best GW2 player wants to team up with me. Unless he wants to do stuff super crazy fast and get a ton of loot in a very short amount of time I am completely uninterested.

The “problem” is player-sided. Players want to play with similar players and use meta as a means to differentiate and try to filter out the similarly minded players from those who have totally different goals.

Where I’m from there’s a saying. It translates roughly to : Those who are alike come together.

When I play I try to find people like me or identical to me to play with.
Why would I play with people that are different and have other goals?

The problem with that line of reasoning is that the player is not bad for not sharing your same mindset. Prove to me that such a player is bad-in fact, your own statement describes that it’s not that they are really bad, but that they play for different reasons (which you call “wrong”, and is quite untrue for THEM.)

In short, stop calling “bad” that with which you disagree with. It’s not the most rational thing to do, unless you are only speaking with your own people sharing the same goals (this forum is not only read by your guild/friends, for instance.) Being a good player able to complete Dungeons the fastest for “bragging rights” or whatever doesn’t automatically give you the right to bully others (calling them “bad”) for not sharing your mindset. Good players with the “wrong” gear for a speedrun aren’t necessarily bad, they are just not what you are looking for a speedrun. Their builds and/or way of playing are not “terribad”-just not a good fit for the fastest of speedruns.

As for the other points, it is obvious by now that I prefer each group played together and didn’t mind each other for playing the game differently. Don’t bash, just don’t play with people who don’t enjoy the game you do.

Again, “the right way to play” is someone’s opinion, which is to be respected as long as it doesn’t violate any of the game’s rules of conduct. There’s no “wrong reasons” to play, as you hinted at (notice you typed “majority of meta players”, when not even the majority who play, I am assuming, are indeed meta players.)

KSIBBQ.8123:

Someone just whispered me and threatened to end my life over this post… so sad.

KSIBBQ.8123:

kitten was the one who said it

I suggest editing that out and sending a message to support instead.

Skoigoth.9238:

Then take a high level dungeon such as Arah and classic PUG-buster encounter such as Lupicus – arguably one of the more difficult encounters in GW2.
Then have a full clerics warrior, playing terribadly (on purpose, as stated in the description btw.), semi-afk facerolling poor Lupi solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

That doesn’t look like a faceroll there. The guy is dodging and blocking to nullify damage strategically and stalling when he takes too much damage. Perhaps people Herald Lupicus a tad too highly, then? Granted I’ve never solo’ed him before but that’s mostly because I haven’t the patience to get to him to consistently practice against him.

Star Ace.5207:

In short, stop calling “bad” that with which you disagree with.

The only time these players will hear “bad” from most of us is when they join our groups without meeting/reading the requirements, or when someone asks about optimal builds/gear in map chat and they chime in with claims that what they have is close enough to zerker (or that zerker is too squishy/risky).

It’s honestly a two-way street. Most of us filthy toxic communist kitten elitists simply want to be left to ourselves (although we will welcome others who are like us or want to become like us), and will only lash back if provoked in our “own territory”.

DaveGan.8065:

Forgive me for saying that I want the game to encourage players to play more like this than like the video I posted before.

PS, this isn’t really more risk though. Neither of the encounters was a good example, IMO. But the spider Queen probably is just a silly example not to mention you completely let the point of the videos fly over your head.

The first was more a point showing that passive defense really is strong if played right. The 2nd (quoted) video is more a tutorial of the spider Queen’s attacks and sort of demonstrated how simple they are to avoid. The person in the 1st vid could have taken the exact same approach as the 2nd but risk the poison AoE which is alot stronger than the Web attack.

Leo G.4501:

Skoigoth.9238:

Then take a high level dungeon such as Arah and classic PUG-buster encounter such as Lupicus – arguably one of the more difficult encounters in GW2.
Then have a full clerics warrior, playing terribadly (on purpose, as stated in the description btw.), semi-afk facerolling poor Lupi solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

That doesn’t look like a faceroll there. The guy is dodging and blocking to nullify damage strategically and stealing stalling when he talks too much damage. Perhaps people Herald Lupicus a tad too highly, then? Granted I’ve never solo’ed him before but that’s mostly because I haven’t the patience to get to him to consistently practice against him.

Phase 3 he wasnt dodging any of the attacks for an extended period. If you do that with berserker you definately die.

DaveGan.8065:

… us filthy toxic communist kitten elitists …

More like a meritocracy than communism, if you ask me…

spoj.9672:

I have good reason to argue against changes demanded by ignorance. Hard roles and traditional trinity is what many people want. I absolutely dont want the game to be ruined when anet listens to those people. Especially when what they are asking for wont actually make them any happier. It will probably make them less happy due to even more exclusion, elitism and new meta requirements etc.

And i dont play that actively anymore. But when i do log on I quite often pug a few paths.

Anet won’t listen to them though, they know their numbers and they know that the people complaining are playing either way.

It could just be that the discussion gets so clogged with personalities, &ct so it’s hard to keep track of what’s what.

Picked you out btw because your post was directly above mine :p

DaveGan.8065:

Star Ace.5207:

In short, stop calling “bad” that with which you disagree with.

The only time these players will hear “bad” from most of us is when they join our groups without meeting/reading the requirements, or when someone asks about optimal builds/gear in map chat and they chime in with claims that what they have is close enough to zerker (or that zerker is too squishy/risky).

It’s honestly a two-way street. Most of us filthy toxic communist kitten elitists simply want to be left to ourselves (although we will welcome others who are like us or want to become like us), and will only lash back if provoked in our “own territory”.

Plenty of “Bads” calling in this thread though, and neither dungeons nor the forums are ‘your own territory’. Presuming you mean people joining zerk labeled pugs when not zerk, they’re slightly more irrational than the people that feel the need to set up zerk pugs :p

anabasis.7346:

Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?

How am I supposed to know what that feels like?!

DaveGan.8065:

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

HAHAHA! No.

No. Nononononono. We aren’t going to pretend that that is a probable Avenue of fun to playing meta groups. It’s exactly how you made it sound: like an excuse. Waiting longer to form a perfect team is indeed a downfall to playing meta in a non/semi-permanent group. Just like it is tough to get good permanent fractal groups for a mainly sporadic player likes myself is a downfall. But I’ve accepted it as such and mainly do PuGs for everything for that very reason. Luckily I find PuGs fun so it’s partially mitigated, but not as fun as it used to be in my Guild.

Shanks.2907:

KSIBBQ.8123:

Someone just whispered me and threatened to end my life over this post… so sad.

KSIBBQ.8123:

kitten was the one who said it

I suggest editing that out and sending a message to support instead.

I did that before I wrote this :P

Leo G.4501:

HAHAHA! No.

No. Nononononono. We aren’t going to pretend that that is a probable Avenue of fun to playing meta groups. It’s exactly how you made it sound: like an excuse. Waiting longer to form a perfect team is indeed a downfall to playing meta in a non/semi-permanent group. Just like it is tough to get good permanent fractal groups for a mainly sporadic player likes myself is a downfall. But I’ve accepted it as such and mainly do PuGs for everything for that very reason. Luckily I find PuGs fun so it’s partially mitigated, but not as fun as it used to be in my Guild.

How ridiculously egocentric. Are you American?

Wow that went dark

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

HAHAHA! No.

No. Nononononono. We aren’t going to pretend that that is a probable Avenue of fun to playing meta groups. It’s exactly how you made it sound: like an excuse. Waiting longer to form a perfect team is indeed a downfall to playing meta in a non/semi-permanent group. Just like it is tough to get good permanent fractal groups for a mainly sporadic player likes myself is a downfall. But I’ve accepted it as such and mainly do PuGs for everything for that very reason. Luckily I find PuGs fun so it’s partially mitigated, but not as fun as it used to be in my Guild.

Who are you to judge what people find fun?

Sometimes when i pug I actually do want a smooth run. And sometimes im not in the mood to put up with people that dont know what to do. In those cases i dont mind waiting an extra 10 minutes to get a group. Although i rarely do this these days. I did in the past. And i was almost driven to do so only the other day when i almost pulled my hair out in CM.

I find it fun to go as fast as possible and for it to be smooth. But i dont really care about gold or loot per hour. Ive always been that way. There are plenty of others who share this view. After all why would we do dungeon records if we didnt? We certainly dont get loads of loot by repeating the same path for the whole day until we get the flawless run we want.

The problem is impressing 1 persons fun as someone elses’ absolute necessity.

There was a comment in the other thread about how you can sometimes ‘get away with’ not being meta in fractals.

That’s the attitude that the culture of the zerker meta enforces, and it’s enforcing a playstyle that plenty of people don’t find fun.

‘Course that doesn’t mean people can’t define their groups any way they want, of course they can. A lot of it seems to be driven by hyperbole about the differences and a ‘joblike’ mindset though, and that’s destructive.

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Skoigoth.9238:

Then take a high level dungeon such as Arah and classic PUG-buster encounter such as Lupicus – arguably one of the more difficult encounters in GW2.
Then have a full clerics warrior, playing terribadly (on purpose, as stated in the description btw.), semi-afk facerolling poor Lupi solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

That doesn’t look like a faceroll there. The guy is dodging and blocking to nullify damage strategically and stealing stalling when he talks too much damage. Perhaps people Herald Lupicus a tad too highly, then? Granted I’ve never solo’ed him before but that’s mostly because I haven’t the patience to get to him to consistently practice against him.

Phase 3 he wasnt dodging any of the attacks for an extended period. If you do that with berserker you definately die.

And? Is not like the warrior in that video had no risk of failure.

Please dont make things up. There is no forcing of our ideals on others. The exception is a few bad apples. But it seems it happens a lot more coming from other players saying were not allowed to have fun by speedrunning. The hypocrisy is pretty hilarious dont you think?

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Skoigoth.9238:

Then take a high level dungeon such as Arah and classic PUG-buster encounter such as Lupicus – arguably one of the more difficult encounters in GW2.
Then have a full clerics warrior, playing terribadly (on purpose, as stated in the description btw.), semi-afk facerolling poor Lupi solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

That doesn’t look like a faceroll there. The guy is dodging and blocking to nullify damage strategically and stealing stalling when he talks too much damage. Perhaps people Herald Lupicus a tad too highly, then? Granted I’ve never solo’ed him before but that’s mostly because I haven’t the patience to get to him to consistently practice against him.

Phase 3 he wasnt dodging any of the attacks for an extended period. If you do that with berserker you definately die.

And? Is not like the warrior in that video had no risk of failure.

If im not mistaken. He never claimed it was no risk. Although it is pretty much afk faceroll in phase 3. There was obviously some risk of failure in phase 1 and 2. But thats not the point (pretty minute tbf considering the dmg reduction and sustain he was getting). The point is it is considerably easier to survive and suceed playing like that. It just takes so much longer.

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

HAHAHA! No.

No. Nononononono. We aren’t going to pretend that that is a probable Avenue of fun to playing meta groups. It’s exactly how you made it sound: like an excuse. Waiting longer to form a perfect team is indeed a downfall to playing meta in a non/semi-permanent group. Just like it is tough to get good permanent fractal groups for a mainly sporadic player likes myself is a downfall. But I’ve accepted it as such and mainly do PuGs for everything for that very reason. Luckily I find PuGs fun so it’s partially mitigated, but not as fun as it used to be in my Guild.

Who are you to judge what people find fun?

Sometimes when i pug I actually do want a smooth run. And sometimes im not in the mood to put up with people that dont know what to do. In those cases i dont mind waiting an extra 10 minutes to get a group. Although i rarely do this these days. I did in the past. And i was almost driven to do so only the other day when i almost pulled my hair out in CM.

I find it fun to go as fast as possible and for it to be smooth. But i dont really care about gold or loot per hour. Ive always been that way. There are plenty of others who share this view. After all why would we do dungeon records if we didnt? We certainly dont get loads of loot by repeating the same path for the whole day until we get the flawless run we want.

That’s not fun, then. That’s insurance, insurance I might add that is unnecessary. We’re not talking about cars or sex here, so it’s not like the extra time required is suddenly a boon for playing meta.

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

HAHAHA! No.

No. Nononononono. We aren’t going to pretend that that is a probable Avenue of fun to playing meta groups. It’s exactly how you made it sound: like an excuse. Waiting longer to form a perfect team is indeed a downfall to playing meta in a non/semi-permanent group. Just like it is tough to get good permanent fractal groups for a mainly sporadic player likes myself is a downfall. But I’ve accepted it as such and mainly do PuGs for everything for that very reason. Luckily I find PuGs fun so it’s partially mitigated, but not as fun as it used to be in my Guild.

Who are you to judge what people find fun?

Sometimes when i pug I actually do want a smooth run. And sometimes im not in the mood to put up with people that dont know what to do. In those cases i dont mind waiting an extra 10 minutes to get a group. Although i rarely do this these days. I did in the past. And i was almost driven to do so only the other day when i almost pulled my hair out in CM.

I find it fun to go as fast as possible and for it to be smooth. But i dont really care about gold or loot per hour. Ive always been that way. There are plenty of others who share this view. After all why would we do dungeon records if we didnt? We certainly dont get loads of loot by repeating the same path for the whole day until we get the flawless run we want.

That’s not fun, then. That’s insurance, insurance I might add that is unnecessary. We’re not talking about cars or sex here, so it’s not like the extra time required is suddenly a boon for playing meta.

It is fun. I have fun when its a fast smooth run. It is sometimes necessary to take such measures to ensure that i get to experience that fun. Maybe you should stop trying to discredit other peoples ideas of fun or their methods on achieving that. Its pathetic.

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

Skoigoth.9238:

Then take a high level dungeon such as Arah and classic PUG-buster encounter such as Lupicus – arguably one of the more difficult encounters in GW2.
Then have a full clerics warrior, playing terribadly (on purpose, as stated in the description btw.), semi-afk facerolling poor Lupi solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

That doesn’t look like a faceroll there. The guy is dodging and blocking to nullify damage strategically and stealing stalling when he talks too much damage. Perhaps people Herald Lupicus a tad too highly, then? Granted I’ve never solo’ed him before but that’s mostly because I haven’t the patience to get to him to consistently practice against him.

Phase 3 he wasnt dodging any of the attacks for an extended period. If you do that with berserker you definately die.

And? Is not like the warrior in that video had no risk of failure.

If im not mistaken. He never claimed it was no risk. Although it is pretty much afk faceroll in phase 3. There was obviously some risk of failure in phase 1 and 2. But thats not the point (pretty minute tbf considering the dmg reduction and sustain he was getting). The point is it is considerably easier to survive and suceed playing like that. It just takes so much longer.

Kind of duh, though. If it wasn’t easier to survive then there would be even less of a reason to gear defensively. An the poster of the posted video did say faceroll and did not specify a phase. For all we know, the extra time spent in the other phases might balance out the ease of the 3rd.

spoj.9672:

Please dont make things up. There is no forcing of our ideals on others. The exception is a few bad apples. But it seems it happens a lot more coming from other players saying were not allowed to have fun by speedrunning. The hypocrisy is pretty hilarious dont you think?

I’m not saying theres any intent to do so, but there is a cultural impact to that effect.

Also, there’s plenty of the former anyways, plenty of discussion about the bads who don’t play right. In fact there’s been a ton of asides in both of these discussions that decay into who the actual “Bads” are, the zerk or the nonzerk faction.

I think the problem for you more is most people don’t ‘get’ speed runs for the fun of it and don’t believe it happens very much. One of the big problem groups in this game are the ‘joblike grinders’. They’re the ones that yell at you if you kill out of order or rant about how someone else (never them) playing wrong made them die or lose efficiency.

Everybody’s run into these guys, an they tend to spill over into general play.

There’s a lot of them in dungeons, and I’d bet for most of us, they’re the people we run into the most when they carry on about the meta, and those are usually the guys that are getting people mad (and set up the OP).

My problem is that they have power that people believe they’re right, and that it matters… And honestly, that’s where I have some issues with the people in your position. I remember when the first version of your guide came out, it had some serious issues as a gameplay guide in that it wasn’t a necro guide, it was a necro guide for playing in the speedrun zerker style presented as a general necro guide. There’s an implicaton (probably unintentional) that the guide is the only right way to play, although the first version was so tunnelvision that it didn’t even mention some of the necro weapons at all.

That kind of thing filters down to the job/grinders and the more aggro players and wreaks havoc. I’m sure that wasn’t the intent of yours (and other people that have written similar guide), but that certainly was a major effect.

~~~

I guess the tl;dr for me would be:

It’s not ultimately a question of the efficiency of zerk versus other styles, it’s that the very concept of a meta in noncompetitive content that doesn’t demand it is deeply damaging to the culture and play of the game.

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

HAHAHA! No.

No. Nononononono. We aren’t going to pretend that that is a probable Avenue of fun to playing meta groups. It’s exactly how you made it sound: like an excuse. Waiting longer to form a perfect team is indeed a downfall to playing meta in a non/semi-permanent group. Just like it is tough to get good permanent fractal groups for a mainly sporadic player likes myself is a downfall. But I’ve accepted it as such and mainly do PuGs for everything for that very reason. Luckily I find PuGs fun so it’s partially mitigated, but not as fun as it used to be in my Guild.

Who are you to judge what people find fun?

Sometimes when i pug I actually do want a smooth run. And sometimes im not in the mood to put up with people that dont know what to do. In those cases i dont mind waiting an extra 10 minutes to get a group. Although i rarely do this these days. I did in the past. And i was almost driven to do so only the other day when i almost pulled my hair out in CM.

I find it fun to go as fast as possible and for it to be smooth. But i dont really care about gold or loot per hour. Ive always been that way. There are plenty of others who share this view. After all why would we do dungeon records if we didnt? We certainly dont get loads of loot by repeating the same path for the whole day until we get the flawless run we want.

That’s not fun, then. That’s insurance, insurance I might add that is unnecessary. We’re not talking about cars or sex here, so it’s not like the extra time required is suddenly a boon for playing meta.

It is fun. I have fun when its a fast smooth run. It is sometimes necessary to take such measures to ensure that i get to experience that fun. Maybe you should stop trying to discredit other peoples ideas of fun or their methods on achieving that. Its pathetic.

The run being smooth is your fun, not the time you burn waiting for the run to start.

If waiting around was fun then sit the kitten down and accept a hard trinity.

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

HAHAHA! No.

No. Nononononono. We aren’t going to pretend that that is a probable Avenue of fun to playing meta groups. It’s exactly how you made it sound: like an excuse. Waiting longer to form a perfect team is indeed a downfall to playing meta in a non/semi-permanent group. Just like it is tough to get good permanent fractal groups for a mainly sporadic player likes myself is a downfall. But I’ve accepted it as such and mainly do PuGs for everything for that very reason. Luckily I find PuGs fun so it’s partially mitigated, but not as fun as it used to be in my Guild.

Who are you to judge what people find fun?

Sometimes when i pug I actually do want a smooth run. And sometimes im not in the mood to put up with people that dont know what to do. In those cases i dont mind waiting an extra 10 minutes to get a group. Although i rarely do this these days. I did in the past. And i was almost driven to do so only the other day when i almost pulled my hair out in CM.

I find it fun to go as fast as possible and for it to be smooth. But i dont really care about gold or loot per hour. Ive always been that way. There are plenty of others who share this view. After all why would we do dungeon records if we didnt? We certainly dont get loads of loot by repeating the same path for the whole day until we get the flawless run we want.

That’s not fun, then. That’s insurance, insurance I might add that is unnecessary. We’re not talking about cars or sex here, so it’s not like the extra time required is suddenly a boon for playing meta.

It is fun. I have fun when its a fast smooth run. It is sometimes necessary to take such measures to ensure that i get to experience that fun. Maybe you should stop trying to discredit other peoples ideas of fun or their methods on achieving that. Its pathetic.

The run being smooth is your fun, not the time you burn waiting for the run to start.

If waiting around was fun then sit the kitten down and accept a hard trinity.

Why do you have a problem with people spending time to form groups? And it can be fun. It is an MMO with a chat function after all.

Leo G.4501:

The run being smooth is your fun, not the time you burn waiting for the run to start.

If waiting around was fun then sit the kitten down and accept a hard trinity.

Welp, agenda confirmed.

Spoj would be one of the first to adapt to a trinity if one ever became implemented. So would most of the speed run community. Because while PHIW’s generally have one armor set and only the two weapons they have equipped, most people more dedicated to the content will have at least one of every weapon their class can use and multiple armor sets, as well as multiple characters to run a variety of roles.

We aren’t really against a hard trinity because we couldn’t pull it off. It’s because it would introduce too forced exclusion and elitism that whatever is left of the dungeon community would die off completely. Do you really want every dungeon group to be as “elitist” and “toxic” as only some are right now?

If even ANet starts pushing in the direction you want it to go, the meta will shift to a point where more people start getting excluded for things they don’t have a choice in.

EDIT: another prime example of your disgusting egocentricity. Waiting around is okay for some of us. Those who are okay with waiting also understand that not everyone else is as okay with waiting as they are. Why is this concept too hard to grasp?

DaveGan.8065:

We aren’t really against a hard trinity because we couldn’t pull it off. It’s because it would introduce too forced exclusion and elitism that whatever is left of the dungeon community would die off completely. Do you really want every dungeon group to be as “elitist” and “toxic” as only some are right now?

Elitism already exists. My point was, if waiting around to form a specific group to run content with was fun, then waiting longer to form a trinity group should just be a blast!

I won’t call you a liar for suggesting waiting around with strangers is fun, but I’m going to confess a secret that might fill you with distaste: I and likely quite a few others, don’t like to sit around just because you can’t be bothered to invite the schmoe worse been begging for a team for 5 min just because of someone’s stuck up sensibilities.

EDIT: another prime example of your disgusting egocentricity. Waiting around is okay for some of us. Those who are okay with waiting also understand that not everyone else is as okay with waiting as they are. Why is this concept too hard to grasp?

Like I said, wait away. I don’t care if you even pretend it’s Mardi gras while you’re doing it. It’s still a detriment to playing meta, especially if we’re talking speed and efficiency. 10 min is pushing into 2-run territory!

I like waiting for the fifth for a dungeon run where they can run the meta.
Usually we’re already be almost complete through the first path with 4 people – (in roughly the same time with meta players -4 peeps almost = 5) and the fifth is a bonus for the additional paths.

It’s not like meta teams don’t start there run with four players (sometimes) less and we just get going and leave the LFG up.
Besides it’s good to meet fellow like minded individuals for later paths and future runs.

Leo G.4501:

Elitism already exists. My point was, if waiting around to form a specific group to run content with was fun, then waiting longer to form a trinity group should just be a blast!

Elitism at the moment is optional right now. You can easily bypass it by buying a few pieces of equipment that don’t even cost that much. You can also bypass it by forming your own group with your own rules. The alternative would be skill-based and class-based barriers (that cannot be bypassed so easily), in stark contrast to your desired ideal of no barriers.

But most of us have connections and would have little to no issue forming a group even with a trinity. Not least in part because we would have the classes, gear, and experience needed to run any role needed.

We currently wait because we choose to, not because we have to. Why propose something that would make the waiting and exclusion mandatory for players who wouldn’t have a way to opt out? Is it bitterness or saltiness that you’re tasting right now?

Being pretty consistently abusive there, Dave <>