Guild Wars 2

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

Leo G.4501:

spoj.9672:

The devs did actually expect dungeons to take about 20 mins at release. Dungeons have been there for over 2 years and that expected time was probably with clearing most trash groups in mind. But at this stage thats a pretty pathetic and irritating time for experienced players. Its not fun taking twice as long as it needs to for no reason. When you have gone 5 minutes or so on a path. It becomes desirable to do so in the future. Going fast adds a new dimension to the experience.

That is one perspective.

Another is, if I am to spend 45 min a day running dungeons, I’d rather play the dungeon rather than needing to run half a dozen of them for the same fun.

I’m waiting for someone to say the magic word though. . .

Yes its one perspective. And its a perfectly valid opinion to have. I dont know why you are argueing.

Did I argue? I said it was a perspective, not wrong or right.

Why are you being defensive?

If you are not argueing why are you responding?

I’m not like you. I like discussions of change which is why I asked questions about content. If you feel I am being hostile, I assure you I’m not despite the sort of reception my viewpoint seems to make with some posters.

A discussion is an exchange of ideas and arguements. Bringing up totally irrelevant perspectives to change the subject and ignore/passively discredit someones opinion is not healthy to a discussion. Also playing the moderator role while being biased towards one side is pretty annoying (you tend to do this a lot). So either take a side and contribute with respect for other peoples opinions or leave.

And you of all people have less a foundation to dictate how I post. I’ve seen your post history. . .

There is no “sides” when critiquing an idea and if there were, it be more than just 2. I’m not playing moderator because moderators aren’t allowed to sway perspective one way or the other. They are merely bystanders who make sure people do not break rules. I’m not doing any such thing.

And now you say my perspective is irrelevant? Now who’s arguing? I didn’t bad mouth your perspective but you get to go dismissing mine?

If you cant see how you have been disrespecting and passively discrediting other peoples opinions then i dont know what to think. You have often taken the stance of advocating discussion and tried to direct the thread into a certain direction without contributing your own opinion or by simply ignoring the arguements given and changing the subject. That is what i mean by moderating. Its disrepectful.

The thread is finished as far as im concerned. People have different values when playing. They should be respected. You cant solve the meta, there will always be one. People should respect other peoples LFG requirements and form their own groups. Changing the game to fit your own ideals and ruin others instead of forming your own groups is not healthy for the game.

Ive contributed as much as i feel necessary. And have no desire to repeat myself or argue with you anymore so ill take my leave.

Aw, I was just about to grab my popcorn

Your popcorn is probably infected with PHIW at this point, better not.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P

This “worse problem” (that there has been and always will be meta, elitism, and exclusion in this game) has always been in the game and is not a “reply” to anything or any problem.

It’s simply “baggage” that any solution change to the current “problem” status quo must overcome in a better way than the status quo already does right now.

If anything, it’s just a shift from naivety and idealism back to reality.

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

So then, it ends up being exclusion for exclusion, which you’re absolutely embracing.

And therein lies the problem. Maybe we can’t fix human nature, but it’s worth at least trying.

Did I not post a time calculation a few pages ago pointing out that it’s not the case of " so little to gain" ? I’m sure 15 minutes per day are nothing to you but they’re a lot to me.

Also excluding players that aren’t like me from runs I like to do is not wrong in itself. If they want to run with me or people like me they should make themselves like me. If they don’t want that they can steer clear and run with whomever they want.

I read the calculation I didn’t respond because it’s hard to say this, but if you wanna pin it down. that reasoning is the post-hoc thing I mentioned. The calculation was really clearly made to justifiy the position you already had decided was right.

You’ll never see the great pumpkin at this rate!

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P

This “worse problem” (that there has been and always will be meta, elitism, and exclusion in this game) has always been in the game and is not a “reply” to anything or any problem.

It’s simply “baggage” that any solution change to the current “problem” status quo must overcome in a better way than the status quo already does right now.

If anything, it’s just a shift from naivety and idealism back to reality.

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

So then, it ends up being exclusion for exclusion, which you’re absolutely embracing.

And therein lies the problem. Maybe we can’t fix human nature, but it’s worth at least trying.

Did I not post a time calculation a few pages ago pointing out that it’s not the case of " so little to gain" ? I’m sure 15 minutes per day are nothing to you but they’re a lot to me.

Also excluding players that aren’t like me from runs I like to do is not wrong in itself. If they want to run with me or people like me they should make themselves like me. If they don’t want that they can steer clear and run with whomever they want.

I read the calculation I didn’t respond because it’s hard to say this, but if you wanna pin it down. that reasoning is the post-hoc thing I mentioned. The calculation was really clearly made to justifiy the position you already had decided was right.

You’ll never see the great pumpkin at this rate!

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PoigNs87fQ

Now tell me how much time does your daily run take on those paths.

Good group compositon and strategy matters.

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P

This “worse problem” (that there has been and always will be meta, elitism, and exclusion in this game) has always been in the game and is not a “reply” to anything or any problem.

It’s simply “baggage” that any solution change to the current “problem” status quo must overcome in a better way than the status quo already does right now.

If anything, it’s just a shift from naivety and idealism back to reality.

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

So then, it ends up being exclusion for exclusion, which you’re absolutely embracing.

And therein lies the problem. Maybe we can’t fix human nature, but it’s worth at least trying.

Did I not post a time calculation a few pages ago pointing out that it’s not the case of " so little to gain" ? I’m sure 15 minutes per day are nothing to you but they’re a lot to me.

Also excluding players that aren’t like me from runs I like to do is not wrong in itself. If they want to run with me or people like me they should make themselves like me. If they don’t want that they can steer clear and run with whomever they want.

I read the calculation I didn’t respond because it’s hard to say this, but if you wanna pin it down. that reasoning is the post-hoc thing I mentioned. The calculation was really clearly made to justifiy the position you already had decided was right.

You’ll never see the great pumpkin at this rate!

Note: Numbers are made up. Assumes all paths take the same time.

Meta Time numbers.
AC – 5 minutes
CM – 8 minutes
CoE – 12 minutes
Arah – 15 minutes

Non-Meta Time numbers.
AC – 10 minutes
CM – 15 minutes
CoE – 25 minutes
Arah – 30 minutes

Let’s say player A can only really commit to 45 minutes of uninterrupted game play (the kind you need to run a dungeon, especially for the speed running groups).

Under the Meta conditions, player A can do Arah 3 times. But can only do it once under non-Meta conditions. Since Arah has 3 paths, that’s all 3 paths in one day. Versus just the one under non-Meta conditions.

Under meta conditions, player A could do one path from each of AC, CM, CoE, and Arah with 5 minutes to spare. Under non-meta conditions they can only do two paths, except for Arah and CoE together, that combination is 10 minutes over which may be excusable for non-meta conditions.

Under meta conditions, a player is able to do more things in the amount of time they are given to play. Not all players have no time constraints on their play time. That’s what I got out of Harper’s post. That some people want to do a wide variety of things each time they play and doing dungeons under meta conditions allows those people to accomplish their goal instead of having to choose what not to do.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

Silly is a subjective word, and unless the gain is exactly zero I don’t think you get to be the sole authority and set the threshold for what is or isn’t trivial.

Back on point, though: we’re profiling. Asking for “zerker meta” is more likely to get us a player who knows the encounter, knows how to use combo fields, has gear specced for optimal DPS, has utilities and traits beneficial to the group (or at least a player with a few of these things).

I’m not even sure you can keep a serious face while telling me that a group of “CoE P2 all welcome” will finish in about the same time as “CoE P2 experienced please”, and even “CoE P2 meta zerker ping gear”.

And if it turns out that we did get a troll who joined without meeting our requirements in LFG, then we’d be justified in retaliation up to and including kicking him at the last boss because he was never legitimately a member of our group.

It’s the internet, of course I get to say :p

I think the profiling thing is spot on, except it’s not a great profiling tool, and for most runs you don’t need to profile… except people think they do. It’s this self-fulfilling and self-defeating act that people just go with, and it’s harmful.

The zerk meta is a classic false meta because it’s mainly there because we say it’s there. Pug dungeon runs aren’t competitive (which drives pvp and raiding metas) and the content isn’t so hard that meta builds are even remotely required.

“The zerk meta is a classic false meta” – this is a blatant lie.

I’ve been recently trying to finish my CM collection ( done yesterday) and have been doing CM for quite a bit.

Did P3 yesterday with a “no requirements, no stress, no zerker” group just to see what it’s like.

It too 18 minutes for a p3 of CM. Good players will know what that means.

Nobody went afk and the lowest AP was 7 k or something which meant people at least weren’t new to the game.

Had I gone with a meta full zerker PUG group we’d have been done in less than 9 minutes.

That’s 9 minutes of my life wasted because people want to “play how I want”.

So no – it’s not a made up concept.
An average of 8 minutes extra per dungeon run if you do 5-6 dungeons does matter. You could watch a TV show in the extra time it will take because of non-meta people.

No, the term ‘meta’ has just been warped by people that are desperately trying to make it something it’s not.

There are no completion gear requirements for these dungeons, and there’s no competitive reactive element. Either of those could lead to the creation of a true meta.

In most games the meta refers to something competitive, and it can easily be put into 2 grand categories:
1) This style maximizes my chance of winning.
2) This is something I have to be aware of or else I can get destroyed by it.

To clarify the second example, let’s step out of GW for a second; If you play Netrunner, a Jinteki trap deck isn’t one of the top ‘meta’ decks in the first sense. It’s good, but not as good as a NBN astroscript or a RP deck. It’s part of the meta because if you aren’t aware of the deck and how it works, you’re most likely gonna lose.

ahem

Anyways, neither of those categories apply to GW2 PVE. You can optimize to various degrees if you everyone’s on the same page and knows what they’re diong, but it’s not required to compete and it’s not required to ‘not lose’.

@People making more time computations;

I can’t tell you how to have fun. If you enjoy the maximizing and hate waste that much more power to you.

For myself, and I’m sure for others, the difference between 18 and 8 minutes doesn’t matter much. If I have 45 minutes to play, I might do a dungeon and go play in silverwastes for a bit, I can get basic enjoyment out of whaatever.

If I have a goal in a dungeon (say a collection completion) and am really tired of grinding it, hey the pvp track is pretty efficient, let’s go do that for a bit!

You guys REALLY need to understand that many people don’t care about the way you play, just like people who don’t care about speed runs need to understand that this can increase the fun for you.

It’s all optional. Every kittening thing and style in this game is optional.

~~~

Now I admit, when I read all the talk about time wasted! my first thought is ‘man people must not enjoy actually playing much, maybe they need to take a break’, but I’m going to presume it’s more that they become annoyed that they’re being inefficient. It’s still part of their fun then. It’s not part of my fun to stress about how I’m wasting time, and it’s not part of many people’s fun.

Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations;

I can’t tell you how to have fun. If you enjoy the maximizing and hate waste that much more power to you.

For myself, and I’m sure for others, the difference between 18 and 8 minutes doesn’t matter much. If I have 45 minutes to play, I might do a dungeon and go play in silverwastes for a bit, I can get basic enjoyment out of whaatever.

If I have a goal in a dungeon (say a collection completion) and am really tired of grinding it, hey the pvp track is pretty efficient, let’s go do that for a bit!

You guys REALLY need to understand that many people don’t care about the way you play, just like people who don’t care about speed runs need to understand that this can increase the fun for you.

It’s all optional. Every kittening thing and style in this game is optional.

~~~

Now I admit, when I read all the talk about time wasted! my first thought is ‘man people must not enjoy actually playing much, maybe they need to take a break’, but I’m going to presume it’s more that they become annoyed that they’re being inefficient. It’s still part of their fun then. It’s not part of my fun to stress about how I’m wasting time, and it’s not part of many people’s fun.

Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

The people who do have the strict time limits don’t tend to PUG. They’re in a guild or have a friends list of people to run with who all run the meta and run it fast.

The ones who post to the LFG are the ones who either gamble that they wait for the right group make up will be less than the time it would take to run with sub-optimal builds or have low patience/tolerance towards anything that makes the run go longer than it should but not enough people they know are up to dungeons at the time (or they don’t have enough to run with).

Meta is just the optimal gear and build. There will always be a meta. And it will always only be required by that small subset of players who strive to do things as fast as they possibly can. I don’t see why the meta being Zerker is so much more horrible than the meta being Celestial or any other stat combination.

Those who do not like the meta do not have to play it. The meta is completely optional for those who are not in the subset of trying to do things as fast as possible. They just need to join groups of other players who don’t want to run under all meta conditions or start their own group. Those wanting to run with an all meta group do this.

I’m of course excepting the rude members of both parties who join the groups that are opposite their view just to cause trouble (try to get the meta group to accept non-meta and the non-meta group to conform to the meta). Both extremes are wrong in their behavior, but should not be used as evidence as to why the meta is wrong. Because rude people will just find something else to be rude about.

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations;

I can’t tell you how to have fun.
It’s all optional. Every kittening thing and style in this game is optional.

Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

You said it your own post. It’s not enforcing anything, it’s optional. Make your own groups or don’t join the ones advertised as meta.

Why in the Six is this thread still up? Are the mods all on vacation or something? It ceased being productive around page 10…

Seera.5916:

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations;

I can’t tell you how to have fun. If you enjoy the maximizing and hate waste that much more power to you.

For myself, and I’m sure for others, the difference between 18 and 8 minutes doesn’t matter much. If I have 45 minutes to play, I might do a dungeon and go play in silverwastes for a bit, I can get basic enjoyment out of whaatever.

If I have a goal in a dungeon (say a collection completion) and am really tired of grinding it, hey the pvp track is pretty efficient, let’s go do that for a bit!

You guys REALLY need to understand that many people don’t care about the way you play, just like people who don’t care about speed runs need to understand that this can increase the fun for you.

It’s all optional. Every kittening thing and style in this game is optional.

~~~

Now I admit, when I read all the talk about time wasted! my first thought is ‘man people must not enjoy actually playing much, maybe they need to take a break’, but I’m going to presume it’s more that they become annoyed that they’re being inefficient. It’s still part of their fun then. It’s not part of my fun to stress about how I’m wasting time, and it’s not part of many people’s fun.

Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

The people who do have the strict time limits don’t tend to PUG. They’re in a guild or have a friends list of people to run with who all run the meta and run it fast.

The ones who post to the LFG are the ones who either gamble that they wait for the right group make up will be less than the time it would take to run with sub-optimal builds or have low patience/tolerance towards anything that makes the run go longer than it should but not enough people they know are up to dungeons at the time (or they don’t have enough to run with).

Meta is just the optimal gear and build. There will always be a meta. And it will always only be required by that small subset of players who strive to do things as fast as they possibly can. I don’t see why the meta being Zerker is so much more horrible than the meta being Celestial or any other stat combination.

Those who do not like the meta do not have to play it. The meta is completely optional for those who are not in the subset of trying to do things as fast as possible. They just need to join groups of other players who don’t want to run under all meta conditions or start their own group. Those wanting to run with an all meta group do this.

I’m of course excepting the rude members of both parties who join the groups that are opposite their view just to cause trouble (try to get the meta group to accept non-meta and the non-meta group to conform to the meta). Both extremes are wrong in their behavior, but should not be used as evidence as to why the meta is wrong. Because rude people will just find something else to be rude about.

garcialak.9215:

You said it your own post. It’s not enforcing anything, it’s optional. Make your own groups or don’t join the ones advertised as meta.

Except meta tends to gain the force of ‘required’, which is the problem and the origin of this thread.

This isn’t meta, this is ‘preferred for one version of running’.

It’s not even optimal, unless your primary consideration is speed.

Of course I"m not fooling myself, speed is important to a lot of people, but it’s also not the only thing.

~~~

Still, I think the POV shift would help.

Windsagio.1340:

Seera.5916:

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations;

I can’t tell you how to have fun. If you enjoy the maximizing and hate waste that much more power to you.

For myself, and I’m sure for others, the difference between 18 and 8 minutes doesn’t matter much. If I have 45 minutes to play, I might do a dungeon and go play in silverwastes for a bit, I can get basic enjoyment out of whaatever.

If I have a goal in a dungeon (say a collection completion) and am really tired of grinding it, hey the pvp track is pretty efficient, let’s go do that for a bit!

You guys REALLY need to understand that many people don’t care about the way you play, just like people who don’t care about speed runs need to understand that this can increase the fun for you.

It’s all optional. Every kittening thing and style in this game is optional.

~~~

Now I admit, when I read all the talk about time wasted! my first thought is ‘man people must not enjoy actually playing much, maybe they need to take a break’, but I’m going to presume it’s more that they become annoyed that they’re being inefficient. It’s still part of their fun then. It’s not part of my fun to stress about how I’m wasting time, and it’s not part of many people’s fun.

Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

The people who do have the strict time limits don’t tend to PUG. They’re in a guild or have a friends list of people to run with who all run the meta and run it fast.

The ones who post to the LFG are the ones who either gamble that they wait for the right group make up will be less than the time it would take to run with sub-optimal builds or have low patience/tolerance towards anything that makes the run go longer than it should but not enough people they know are up to dungeons at the time (or they don’t have enough to run with).

Meta is just the optimal gear and build. There will always be a meta. And it will always only be required by that small subset of players who strive to do things as fast as they possibly can. I don’t see why the meta being Zerker is so much more horrible than the meta being Celestial or any other stat combination.

Those who do not like the meta do not have to play it. The meta is completely optional for those who are not in the subset of trying to do things as fast as possible. They just need to join groups of other players who don’t want to run under all meta conditions or start their own group. Those wanting to run with an all meta group do this.

I’m of course excepting the rude members of both parties who join the groups that are opposite their view just to cause trouble (try to get the meta group to accept non-meta and the non-meta group to conform to the meta). Both extremes are wrong in their behavior, but should not be used as evidence as to why the meta is wrong. Because rude people will just find something else to be rude about.

garcialak.9215:

You said it your own post. It’s not enforcing anything, it’s optional. Make your own groups or don’t join the ones advertised as meta.

Except meta tends to gain the force of ‘required’, which is the problem and the origin of this thread.

This isn’t meta, this is ‘preferred for one version of running’.

It’s not even optimal, unless your primary consideration is speed.

Of course I"m not fooling myself, speed is important to a lot of people, but it’s also not the only thing.

~~~

Still, I think the POV shift would help.

But you’ll never get rid of the meta.

And those who follow the meta and want to use the meta don’t want to force everyone else to use the meta. They just want those who don’t follow and use the meta to not join their groups when they are looking to run with other meta following people.

The people who value speed will always want the fastest way to get through the content. The mathematically inclined members of this group will sit down and run through the calculations to figure out what will generate the fastest times. What they figure out becomes the meta.

No matter what changes are done, there will always be an optimal gear and build set up for doing the content as fast as possible. And that gear and build set up will be what becomes the meta.

And it will always typically cater to a small group of the players. Because like you said, speed isn’t everything.

Seera.5916:

But you’ll never get rid of the meta.

And those who follow the meta and want to use the meta don’t want to force everyone else to use the meta. They just want those who don’t follow and use the meta to not join their groups when they are looking to run with other meta following people.

The people who value speed will always want the fastest way to get through the content. The mathematically inclined members of this group will sit down and run through the calculations to figure out what will generate the fastest times. What they figure out becomes the meta.

No matter what changes are done, there will always be an optimal gear and build set up for doing the content as fast as possible. And that gear and build set up will be what becomes the meta.

And it will always typically cater to a small group of the players. Because like you said, speed isn’t everything.

Again, it’s not a real meta. It’s a preference we’re calling meta. By calling it meta we’re giving it force it shouldn’t have.

We’re pretty far in the weeds on this discussion, and we’ve worked out a reasonable agreement on the hows and whys of the zerk speedrun style, but we’re not the problem.

The problem is the guy that sees ‘meta talk’ or reads a guide on Dulfy for how to do ‘meta dungeon runs’ for his class, and will end up taking it as ‘you have to do it this way or else you suck’.

All the filtering/profiling talk is exactly to that point, the idea that if you don’t run meta you’re a ‘bad’… and it’s not just an attitude limited to semicasual followers, there’s a TON of folks in this very thread that aggressively espouse that idea.

That idea is senseless and destructive and the dodgy designation of the ‘meta’ is a large factor in that.

~~

Of course there’s some tilting at windmills going on here, there’s 0 chance this is going to change, but it’s worth arguing for

Windsagio.1340:

Seera.5916:

But you’ll never get rid of the meta.

And those who follow the meta and want to use the meta don’t want to force everyone else to use the meta. They just want those who don’t follow and use the meta to not join their groups when they are looking to run with other meta following people.

The people who value speed will always want the fastest way to get through the content. The mathematically inclined members of this group will sit down and run through the calculations to figure out what will generate the fastest times. What they figure out becomes the meta.

No matter what changes are done, there will always be an optimal gear and build set up for doing the content as fast as possible. And that gear and build set up will be what becomes the meta.

And it will always typically cater to a small group of the players. Because like you said, speed isn’t everything.

Again, it’s not a real meta. It’s a preference we’re calling meta. By calling it meta we’re giving it force it shouldn’t have.

We’re pretty far in the weeds on this discussion, and we’ve worked out a reasonable agreement on the hows and whys of the zerk speedrun style, but we’re not the problem.

The problem is the guy that sees ‘meta talk’ or reads a guide on Dulfy for how to do ‘meta dungeon runs’ for his class, and will end up taking it as ‘you have to do it this way or else you suck’.

All the filtering/profiling talk is exactly to that point, the idea that if you don’t run meta you’re a ‘bad’… and it’s not just an attitude limited to semicasual followers, there’s a TON of folks in this very thread that aggressively espouse that idea.

That idea is senseless and destructive and the dodgy designation of the ‘meta’ is a large factor in that.

~~

Of course there’s some tilting at windmills going on here, there’s 0 chance this is going to change, but it’s worth arguing for

So what should it be called?

To me the meta is the gear and build set up that is designed to do the content the best. And there’s a meta for every aspect of the game. Which fits zerker for dungeons perfectly at the moment. So I don’t have a problem with calling it what I feel that it is: the meta.

Edit: And even the pro-meta players in here have said that it’s wrong to call those who don’t run meta bad. We change the name of it and define it as optional and people will still treat it the same as they currently treat it now when it’s called meta.

It will still be used by the rude people to call people either bad (for not playing it) or elitist (for playing it).

Seera.5916:

The people who do have the strict time limits don’t tend to PUG. They’re in a guild or have a friends list of people to run with who all run the meta and run it fast.

Do you have statistics to back up those claims, tex?

I have restrictive time constrained and I almost exclusively PuG.

Most of my friends list doesn’t log on anymore and the main guild I’m in is nearly as casual as me.

The ones who post to the LFG are the ones who either gamble that they wait for the right group make up will be less than the time it would take to run with sub-optimal builds or have low patience/tolerance towards anything that makes the run go longer than it should but not enough people they know are up to dungeons at the time (or they don’t have enough to run with).

I get the sneaking suspicion you’re guessing. . .

Meta is just the optimal gear and build. There will always be a meta. And it will always only be required by that small subset of players who strive to do things as fast as they possibly can. I don’t see why the meta being Zerker is so much more horrible than the meta being Celestial or any other stat combination.

Is it only that they want to go faster? Is that the sole purpose of this meta? Is that what the entire community is after when they resolve to use this approach?

Those who do not like the meta do not have to play it. The meta is completely optional for those who are not in the subset of trying to do things as fast as possible. They just need to join groups of other players who don’t want to run under all meta conditions or start their own group. Those wanting to run with an all meta group do this.

Did you see the type of reaction I got when I proposed a 20min CM was reasonable for an mmo? You’d think I said a racist slur by those types of reactions. Or just putting forth a different perspective can get a head bitten off.

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

I’m of course excepting the rude members of both parties who join the groups that are opposite their view just to cause trouble (try to get the meta group to accept non-meta and the non-meta group to conform to the meta). Both extremes are wrong in their behavior, but should not be used as evidence as to why the meta is wrong. Because rude people will just find something else to be rude about.

Well if the problem is community driven, we really should try to make a community solution. Segregation only goes so far.

Seera.5916:

So what should it be called?

To me the meta is the gear and build set up that is designed to do the content the best. And there’s a meta for every aspect of the game. Which fits zerker for dungeons perfectly at the moment. So I don’t have a problem with calling it what I feel that it is: the meta.

Edit: And even the pro-meta players in here have said that it’s wrong to call those who don’t run meta bad. We change the name of it and define it as optional and people will still treat it the same as they currently treat it now when it’s called meta.

It will still be used by the rude people to call people either bad (for not playing it) or elitist (for playing it).

Zerker speedrun? Just calling it zerker is shorter too, and more to the point.

The elitist thing is funny to me, because you’re kind of ceding the high ground to the poeple you’re angry at. To truly be elitist you have to be the elite (or distinguished in some way).

Honestly though, don’t expect you to change your usage, it works for you, and no reason I can give will be compelling to people that like to use it.

It’s still wrong though :p

Leo G.4501:

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

Segregation only goes so far.

The reason a lot of us don’t buy into this elitism or discrimination/segregation argument is that rather than “do’s vs do-not’s” or “are vs are-not’s”, it’s “choose vs choose-not’s”.

This “meta” is optional on so many levels that people are no longer being excluded against their will. They are choosing to be excluded, and instead of trying to reach out to others who also chose to be excluded, they are choosing to play some victim card and guilt trip everyone else for their own choice.

Windsagio.1340:

Seera.5916:

So what should it be called?

To me the meta is the gear and build set up that is designed to do the content the best. And there’s a meta for every aspect of the game. Which fits zerker for dungeons perfectly at the moment. So I don’t have a problem with calling it what I feel that it is: the meta.

Edit: And even the pro-meta players in here have said that it’s wrong to call those who don’t run meta bad. We change the name of it and define it as optional and people will still treat it the same as they currently treat it now when it’s called meta.

It will still be used by the rude people to call people either bad (for not playing it) or elitist (for playing it).

Zerker speedrun? Just calling it zerker is shorter too, and more to the point.

The elitist thing is funny to me, because you’re kind of ceding the high ground to the poeple you’re angry at. To truly be elitist you have to be the elite (or distinguished in some way).

Honestly though, don’t expect you to change your usage, it works for you, and no reason I can give will be compelling to people that like to use it.

It’s still wrong though :p

But the moment ANet changes the game enough so that it’s not the optimal gear and build, it’s the wrong nomenclature.

Meta is not the name of the specific gear and build that’s the current optimal set. It’s the general name.

It’s like car or truck. Car or truck is general. Honda Civic is specific. You’re giving me the model. Most people when they say meta are talking Car or Truck. And the current model of the moment is the Zerker.

If they change the game so that the fastest runs are with Celestial gear the Meta will be Celestial. And when people ask if you’re running the meta, it basically asks: are you running Celestial?

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations; …
-snip-
Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

See, these types of statement are what make me look at anti-meta arguments and shake my head. No one is enforcing a play-style on the entirety of the community. They’re enforcing a play-style in individual groups.

Some players care about efficiency. The ones who crunch numbers say that glass gear is the most efficient. People who want efficiency want to play with others who want efficiency. Just saying that the efficiency paradigm isn’t efficient is not going to change the minds of efficiency-oriented players. Only numbers will change their minds. Anecdotes about what happens in your parties won’t do it. Your opinion that the efficiency meta is not that efficient won’t either.

The way you’re defining things, all metagame paradigms in all games are bad for the culture of the community as a whole. So, some other games have DPS-check encounters. So what? The paradigm that evolves to beat those encounters will still cause exclusion and divisiveness. All that “required DPS” does is create an imposed barrier that cannot be passed without certain gear, build or rotation. What’s going on between people is the same whether the DPS threshold considered acceptable is required or just preferred.

The real cultural issue taking place is a disagreement over which paradigm gets used in groups formed using the LFG convenience tool. How do I know this? Because there would be no reason to complain if people made their dungeon groups via friends or guild lists. Those who group this way are doing so with people they have some idea about. Also, in such groups social forces matter. In the impersonal, random grouping of the convenience tool, those social forces do not exist. You cannot enforce concern for others in a random environment with little to no consequence for anti-social behavior. In fact, the one consequence that does come into play, kicking, is one of the sources of these complaints.

The exclusion issue could be solved if people accepted responsibility for their own actions. This would require people dropping the idea that they should be entitled to be able to join any group they want regardless of what others want. The preferred DPS in GW2 affords a much greater amount of diversity in groups than other MMO’s. It’s a pity that people get so hung up on convenience that they insist on getting into any group at any time with minimal waiting, with :their" preferred gear/build and want the game to change so that they can do so, no matter others’ preferences.

Leo G.4501:

Did you see the type of reaction I got when I proposed a 20min CM was reasonable for an mmo? You’d think I said a racist slur by those types of reactions. Or just putting forth a different perspective can get a head bitten off.

To be honest, my response was driven by personal reasons. Because you are either showing that you have no clue what you are talking about (time difference is minimal, etc.) or you are intentionally ignoring the point we are trying to make.

Do you think taking 18 minutes for a task that can (/should?) be done in 5 minutes is reasonable? Now of course gaming is not a task. But, for example, I like driving. Still I wouldn’t want to have my daily way to university take three times the usual time.

Also if you start the game with a limited time frame and the intention of doing a dungeon and then going to Silverwastes, wouldn’t you be upset if the dungeon took up all your time? For some people the same goes for multiple dungeons. When I log in after getting home I want to do CM, Arah and some more dungeons if I have time. But if CM takes up all my evening I would be upset. Especially if it’s because some people are too lazy or too special to play optimally. And that is after I clearly stated my intentions in the LFG.

DaveGan.8065:

Leo G.4501:

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

Segregation only goes so far.

The reason a lot of us don’t buy into this elitism or discrimination/segregation argument is that rather than “do’s vs do-not’s” or “are vs are-not’s”, it’s “choose vs choose-not’s”.

This “meta” is optional on so many levels that people are no longer being excluded against their will. They are choosing to be excluded, and instead of trying to reach out to others who also chose to be excluded, they are choosing to play some victim card and guilt trip everyone else for their own choice.

Well who’s in the majority, then? Whether who plays the victim card, it tend to be the majority who had the power.

But that might be a bad question since the meta feels like an abuse of power. Instead of using the knowledge and power gained to fix and improve the game, it’s somehow leaked to the general populace where now it’s altered the game into a speed chug loot grab. And i know the original meta players likely don’t even care about loot but perhaps they did try to get the devs to fix things but the devs didn’t listen?

But yeah, we get it. Meta optional. Blah blah is playing the victim (blah blah=both sides, because they both do). Does any of that work toward helping the problem?

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

The people who do have the strict time limits don’t tend to PUG. They’re in a guild or have a friends list of people to run with who all run the meta and run it fast.

Do you have statistics to back up those claims, tex?

I have restrictive time constrained and I almost exclusively PuG.

Most of my friends list doesn’t log on anymore and the main guild I’m in is nearly as casual as me.

The ones who post to the LFG are the ones who either gamble that they wait for the right group make up will be less than the time it would take to run with sub-optimal builds or have low patience/tolerance towards anything that makes the run go longer than it should but not enough people they know are up to dungeons at the time (or they don’t have enough to run with).

I get the sneaking suspicion you’re guessing. . .

Meta is just the optimal gear and build. There will always be a meta. And it will always only be required by that small subset of players who strive to do things as fast as they possibly can. I don’t see why the meta being Zerker is so much more horrible than the meta being Celestial or any other stat combination.

Is it only that they want to go faster? Is that the sole purpose of this meta? Is that what the entire community is after when they resolve to use this approach?

Those who do not like the meta do not have to play it. The meta is completely optional for those who are not in the subset of trying to do things as fast as possible. They just need to join groups of other players who don’t want to run under all meta conditions or start their own group. Those wanting to run with an all meta group do this.

Did you see the type of reaction I got when I proposed a 20min CM was reasonable for an mmo? You’d think I said a racist slur by those types of reactions. Or just putting forth a different perspective can get a head bitten off.

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

I’m of course excepting the rude members of both parties who join the groups that are opposite their view just to cause trouble (try to get the meta group to accept non-meta and the non-meta group to conform to the meta). Both extremes are wrong in their behavior, but should not be used as evidence as to why the meta is wrong. Because rude people will just find something else to be rude about.

Well if the problem is community driven, we really should try to make a community solution. Segregation only goes so far.

1. That’s why I said tend. I know there are exceptions. I’d imagine those with short time frames would rather not risk spending all of their time waiting for the LFG to fill if they could help it.

2. I offered up two different groups of meta followers who use the LFG, I’m not guessing. What other groups can you think of that want to run meta but also use the LFG?

3. Meta to me is the gear and build set up for when people want to do something the best. And in this game, that amounts to how fast it takes to go through the dungeon. So yes, for GW2, the meta will be whatever gear and build set will complete the content the fastest.

And I’m not referring to the people who aren’t into doing the content as best as is possible.

4. It’s not my subset. I can’t follow a rotation to save my life. And no desire to fix that either. But I don’t go yell at the meta followers that they must take me anyway and carry me because “I’m supposed to be able to play how I want.” And I’m not a moderator of the game nor anyone’s mother so unfortunately, I can’t tell anyone what to do. I can only make suggestions, but the ones who are rude to people for having the playstyle they have will be rude no matter what is done. Unfortunately, I can’t change their personality.

And I don’t know if you meant to come off that way, but you came off as not accepting that the 10 minute run of the same dungeon was an acceptable time either. I personally didn’t see the harshness in their responses to you, but everyone reads into posts differently.

5. Report the rude users so that they have to buy a new account to be rude some more or decide that it’s not worth it to be rude again. Unfortunately, there’s not much we can do to change other people’s personalities.

Cheezy.2039:

Leo G.4501:

Did you see the type of reaction I got when I proposed a 20min CM was reasonable for an mmo? You’d think I said a racist slur by those types of reactions. Or just putting forth a different perspective can get a head bitten off.

To be honest, my response was driven by personal reasons. Because you are either showing that you have no clue what you are talking about (time difference is minimal, etc.) or you are intentionally ignoring the point we are trying to make.

Do you think taking 18 minutes for a task that can (/should?) be done in 5 minutes is reasonable? Now of course gaming is not a task. But, for example, I like driving. Still I wouldn’t want to have my daily way to university take three times the usual time.

Also if you start the game with a limited time frame and the intention of doing a dungeon and then going to Silverwastes, wouldn’t you be upset if the dungeon took up all your time? For some people the same goes for multiple dungeons. When I log in after getting home I want to do CM, Arah and some more dungeons if I have time. But if CM takes up all my evening I would be upset. Especially if it’s because some people are too lazy or too special to play optimally. And that is after I clearly stated my intentions in the LFG.

Like I mentioned to spoj, yeah that is a perspective.

I understand that. Now do you?

The point I’m trying to make is “who are you to dictate how much something should take?” Or maybe you mean how long you’re used to it taking. The devs could turn around and make all mob aggro never drop just because.

With your analogy, if construction forces you to go a longer route, the attitude I hear makes it sound like you’d illegally speed to maintain your drive time to uni just to maintain driving time rather than allot a proper amount of time to drive there safely.

Driving is the wrong analogy for you to use as that is all about allotting the proper time for various circumstances. You don’t get in your vehicle and try to hit as many destinations in a time limit.

Leo G.4501:

Does any of that work toward helping the problem?

The problem about stale content? Make a thread, and I (and all of us filthy toxic elitists) be sure to post in it!

The problem about the “meta”? What problem?

I totally understand people who don’t want to rush through everything. The amazing thing is: I don’t have to deal with people who don’t want to and these people don’t have to deal with me as long as they label their LFGs accordingly.

The bad thing is: somehow some idiots don’t understand that concept, try to force themselves into my parties and kitten at my playstyle on the forums.

And yes, if my LFG states ‘zerker’ and the fights take long enough to show that obviously some people are not fitting that requirement then I feel like I have the right to kick them.

Leo G.4501:

Driving is the wrong analogy for you to use as that is all about allotting the proper time for various circumstances. You don’t get in your vehicle and try to hit as many destinations in a time limit.

True, but I also like driving fast for the sake of driving fast. Just like dungeons

Seera.5916:

And I don’t know if you meant to come off that way, but you came off as not accepting that the 10 minute run of the same dungeon was an acceptable time either. I personally didn’t see the harshness in their responses to you, but everyone reads into posts differently.

1-4 is noted and understood. As for 3, the magic word I was looking for was “rewards” or “loot”. Greed is a strong motivator and is what a subset of the meta community (those that perfect it, those that simply advocate it, ect) is driven by.

As for the quoted, what possible reason would I not accept a 10 min time as acceptable? The original post where I question that didn’t even disparage a lower time or have a measured shorter time to begin with.

As for 5, I feel a decent dose of perspective would help all parties. Stepping into other’s shoes for a sec might reveal truths about them or ourselves we didn’t once realize. I’d say having stronger community bonds would help but that might be asking too much.

DaveGan.8065:

Leo G.4501:

Does any of that work toward helping the problem?

The problem about stale content? Make a thread, and I (and all of us filthy toxic elitists) be sure to post in it!

The problem about the “meta”? What problem?

Well people have seemed to focus down on the community problem which was the subject of that post. . .

Leo G.4501:

Well people have seemed to focus down on the community problem which was the subject of that post. . .

You mean the toxic entitled vocal minority that doesn’t help themselves by making their own groups or switching gear?

See where this is going now that you’ve opened the can of worms about “perspective”?

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

And I don’t know if you meant to come off that way, but you came off as not accepting that the 10 minute run of the same dungeon was an acceptable time either. I personally didn’t see the harshness in their responses to you, but everyone reads into posts differently.

1-4 is noted and understood. As for 3, the magic word I was looking for was “rewards” or “loot”. Greed is a strong motivator and is what a subset of the meta community (those that perfect it, those that simply advocate it, ect) is driven by.

As for the quoted, what possible reason would I not accept a 10 min time as acceptable? The original post where I question that didn’t even disparage a lower time or have a measured shorter time to begin with.

As for 5, I feel a decent dose of perspective would help all parties. Stepping into other’s shoes for a sec might reveal truths about them or ourselves we didn’t once realize. I’d say having stronger community bonds would help but that might be asking too much.

3. But faster speeds mean more loot/rewards in a given time. So don’t see how they should be separate reasons.

5. Might help some. But the truly rude ones will just find something else to be rude about. Can’t get rid of them all.

And like I said, I don’t think you meant to come off the way you did.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations; …
-snip-
Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

See, these types of statement are what make me look at anti-meta arguments and shake my head. No one is enforcing a play-style on the entirety of the community. They’re enforcing a play-style in individual groups.

Some players care about efficiency. The ones who crunch numbers say that glass gear is the most efficient. People who want efficiency want to play with others who want efficiency. Just saying that the efficiency paradigm isn’t efficient is not going to change the minds of efficiency-oriented players. Only numbers will change their minds. Anecdotes about what happens in your parties won’t do it. Your opinion that the efficiency meta is not that efficient won’t either.

The way you’re defining things, all metagame paradigms in all games are bad for the culture of the community as a whole. So, some other games have DPS-check encounters. So what? The paradigm that evolves to beat those encounters will still cause exclusion and divisiveness. All that “required DPS” does is create an imposed barrier that cannot be passed without certain gear, build or rotation. What’s going on between people is the same whether the DPS threshold considered acceptable is required or just preferred.

The real cultural issue taking place is a disagreement over which paradigm gets used in groups formed using the LFG convenience tool. How do I know this? Because there would be no reason to complain if people made their dungeon groups via friends or guild lists. Those who group this way are doing so with people they have some idea about. Also, in such groups social forces matter. In the impersonal, random grouping of the convenience tool, those social forces do not exist. You cannot enforce concern for others in a random environment with little to no consequence for anti-social behavior. In fact, the one consequence that does come into play, kicking, is one of the sources of these complaints.

The exclusion issue could be solved if people accepted responsibility for their own actions. This would require people dropping the idea that they should be entitled to be able to join any group they want regardless of what others want. The preferred DPS in GW2 affords a much greater amount of diversity in groups than other MMO’s. It’s a pity that people get so hung up on convenience that they insist on getting into any group at any time with minimal waiting, with :their" preferred gear/build and want the game to change so that they can do so, no matter others’ preferences.

That’s my whole point (if I read right) very few people are actually intentionally trying to reinforce meta, but there are cultural forces that end up being at work that give it undue weight. That undue weight causes all kinds of problems.

~~~

You’re also not differentiating between game enforced meta (DPS checks, AR requirements, resist gear checks in old raids), competitive meta, and player-preference ‘meta’. In the final case, I am absolutely saying that they’re generally toxic and harmful to the community and play.

~~~
Finally; I think only running with your prefferred gear/setup leads to boring play. If I want to do a dungeon, and the only people are zerker (or for some of my chars), I’ll run zerker. If I’m a zerker warrior and there’s a condi necro and a clerics’ guardian, that’s going to be an entirely different experience playing the dungeon, but it’s fine because it’s interesting. I have to play a little differently and adapt, but to me that’s a worthwhile skill in and of itself.

Waiting on a preferred group is (to me) only closing off the range of experience and play you can have.

edit: Embarassingly posted in wrong thread

Windsagio.1340:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations; …
-snip-
Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

See, these types of statement are what make me look at anti-meta arguments and shake my head. No one is enforcing a play-style on the entirety of the community. They’re enforcing a play-style in individual groups.

Some players care about efficiency. The ones who crunch numbers say that glass gear is the most efficient. People who want efficiency want to play with others who want efficiency. Just saying that the efficiency paradigm isn’t efficient is not going to change the minds of efficiency-oriented players. Only numbers will change their minds. Anecdotes about what happens in your parties won’t do it. Your opinion that the efficiency meta is not that efficient won’t either.

The way you’re defining things, all metagame paradigms in all games are bad for the culture of the community as a whole. So, some other games have DPS-check encounters. So what? The paradigm that evolves to beat those encounters will still cause exclusion and divisiveness. All that “required DPS” does is create an imposed barrier that cannot be passed without certain gear, build or rotation. What’s going on between people is the same whether the DPS threshold considered acceptable is required or just preferred.

The real cultural issue taking place is a disagreement over which paradigm gets used in groups formed using the LFG convenience tool. How do I know this? Because there would be no reason to complain if people made their dungeon groups via friends or guild lists. Those who group this way are doing so with people they have some idea about. Also, in such groups social forces matter. In the impersonal, random grouping of the convenience tool, those social forces do not exist. You cannot enforce concern for others in a random environment with little to no consequence for anti-social behavior. In fact, the one consequence that does come into play, kicking, is one of the sources of these complaints.

The exclusion issue could be solved if people accepted responsibility for their own actions. This would require people dropping the idea that they should be entitled to be able to join any group they want regardless of what others want. The preferred DPS in GW2 affords a much greater amount of diversity in groups than other MMO’s. It’s a pity that people get so hung up on convenience that they insist on getting into any group at any time with minimal waiting, with :their" preferred gear/build and want the game to change so that they can do so, no matter others’ preferences.

That’s my whole point (if I read right) very few people are actually intentionally trying to reinforce meta, but there are cultural forces that end up being at work that give it undue weight. That undue weight causes all kinds of problems.

~~~

You’re also not differentiating between game enforced meta (DPS checks, AR requirements, resist gear checks in old raids), competitive meta, and player-preference ‘meta’. In the final case, I am absolutely saying that they’re generally toxic and harmful to the community and play.

~~~
Finally; I think only running with your prefferred gear/setup leads to boring play. If I want to do a dungeon, and the only people are zerker (or for some of my chars), I’ll run zerker. If I’m a zerker warrior and there’s a condi necro and a clerics’ guardian, that’s going to be an entirely different experience playing the dungeon, but it’s fine because it’s interesting. I have to play a little differently and adapt, but to me that’s a worthwhile skill in and of itself.

Waiting on a preferred group is (to me) only closing off the range of experience and play you can have.

And those who do run speed runs do occasionally run non-speed groups for the variety without trying to force the meta on the other players. I’ve seen posts stating as much.

Removed since it was the wrong thread and no sense taking this one off topic.

let me switch that post over to the correct discussion, sorry ><

Windsagio.1340:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

-snip-

- snip -

That’s my whole point (if I read right) very few people are actually intentionally trying to reinforce meta, but there are cultural forces that end up being at work that give it undue weight. That undue weight causes all kinds of problems.

I’ll have to disagree. The only cultural force that is causing a problem is peoples’ sense of entitlement; their insistence that they be able to participate in content whenever and with whomever they wish, regardless of other peoples’ expressed preferences. This applies equally to non-meta players joining glass-only groups and glass players joining anything goes groups and then insisting the group plays as they want.

You’re also not differentiating between game enforced meta (DPS checks, AR requirements, resist gear checks in old raids), competitive meta, and player-preference ‘meta’. In the final case, I am absolutely saying that they’re generally toxic and harmful to the community and play.

In answer to that, I will ask, “Would there be a problem if people chose not to join parties where their preferences were not welcome?” Since the obvious answer to that is, “No!” the two groups could avoid each other and could get on with what they want. The problem is not with the people expressing a preference. The problem is with the people disregarding those preferences.

Finally; I think only running with your prefferred gear/setup leads to boring play. If I want to do a dungeon, and the only people are zerker (or for some of my chars), I’ll run zerker. If I’m a zerker warrior and there’s a condi necro and a clerics’ guardian, that’s going to be an entirely different experience playing the dungeon, but it’s fine because it’s interesting. I have to play a little differently and adapt, but to me that’s a worthwhile skill in and of itself.

Waiting on a preferred group is (to me) only closing off the range of experience and play you can have.

That’s your privilege and it is also the right of anyone who wants to play that way. However, judging others for their failure to do so is not behavior I would endorse.

Other responses in italics in the quote.

It has been going to 21 pages. I have seen a few same names going on and on in their own little novels with barely any new arguments at all. Can we reach the consensus or keep getting at each others’ throats?

Iris Ng.9845:

It has been going to 21 pages. I have seen a few same names going on and on in their own little novels with barely any new arguments at all. Can we reach the consensus or keep getting at each others’ throats?

There is no consensus, nor is one possible.

We’re just exploring the ideas at this point :p

Iris Ng.9845:

It has been going to 21 pages. I have seen a few same names going on and on in their own little novels with barely any new arguments at all. Can we reach the consensus or keep getting at each others’ throats?

Yeah I should be playing GW2 instead of talking about GW2…

oh wait it’s been stale for too long, and that’s why I’m back on the forums

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Did P3 yesterday with a “no requirements, no stress, no zerker” group just to see what it’s like.

It too 18 minutes for a p3 of CM. Good players will know what that means.

Nobody went afk and the lowest AP was 7 k or something which meant people at least weren’t new to the game.

Had I gone with a meta full zerker PUG group we’d have been done in less than 9 minutes.

That’s 9 minutes of my life wasted because people want to “play how I want”.

So no – it’s not a made up concept.
An average of 8 minutes extra per dungeon run if you do 5-6 dungeons does matter. You could watch a TV show in the extra time it will take because of non-meta people.

18 min sounds healthy and reasonable.

The other option I didn’t see you explore: could you have just run fewer dungeons that day? If you only allot yourself an hour of dungeon runs a day and 2 took 20min, couldn’t you just run fewer dungeons?

No because I take enjoyment in getting rewards. If I play but don’t get enough of them to make me feel good then what am I doing?

You’re asking me to get less out of my time because of other people? No thank you. I can play however I want and I want to do it fast.

Leo G.4501:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

You realise the short dungeon times were designed for those with limited time for a play session?

Many of them are short deliberately.

You speak as if you designed those dungeons yourself. Which one did your team design?

PS: 20min is short. When I had limited my playtime to around 45min, I could definitely finish a dungeon, if not multiple paths in a PuG.

20 minutes is relative.

To me for a dungeon path it’s insanely long.
To you it’s just right or short.

It doesn’t matter. Right now the game allows for both of us to run it in our chosen time-frame and doesn’t force either one of us to take longer or shorter than we want to.

That’s what’s good about GW2.

That aside – dungeons in this game were designed to be short and unpunishing so that casual players can do them with some degree of success.

There’s another factor at hand here – rewards – and the experience lasting longer does not imply the player being better rewarded. Plus – in the current state of the economy dungeon rewards are borderline bad.

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

Silly is a subjective word, and unless the gain is exactly zero I don’t think you get to be the sole authority and set the threshold for what is or isn’t trivial.

Back on point, though: we’re profiling. Asking for “zerker meta” is more likely to get us a player who knows the encounter, knows how to use combo fields, has gear specced for optimal DPS, has utilities and traits beneficial to the group (or at least a player with a few of these things).

I’m not even sure you can keep a serious face while telling me that a group of “CoE P2 all welcome” will finish in about the same time as “CoE P2 experienced please”, and even “CoE P2 meta zerker ping gear”.

And if it turns out that we did get a troll who joined without meeting our requirements in LFG, then we’d be justified in retaliation up to and including kicking him at the last boss because he was never legitimately a member of our group.

It’s the internet, of course I get to say :p

I think the profiling thing is spot on, except it’s not a great profiling tool, and for most runs you don’t need to profile… except people think they do. It’s this self-fulfilling and self-defeating act that people just go with, and it’s harmful.

The zerk meta is a classic false meta because it’s mainly there because we say it’s there. Pug dungeon runs aren’t competitive (which drives pvp and raiding metas) and the content isn’t so hard that meta builds are even remotely required.

“The zerk meta is a classic false meta” – this is a blatant lie.

I’ve been recently trying to finish my CM collection ( done yesterday) and have been doing CM for quite a bit.

Did P3 yesterday with a “no requirements, no stress, no zerker” group just to see what it’s like.

It too 18 minutes for a p3 of CM. Good players will know what that means.

Nobody went afk and the lowest AP was 7 k or something which meant people at least weren’t new to the game.

Had I gone with a meta full zerker PUG group we’d have been done in less than 9 minutes.

That’s 9 minutes of my life wasted because people want to “play how I want”.

So no – it’s not a made up concept.
An average of 8 minutes extra per dungeon run if you do 5-6 dungeons does matter. You could watch a TV show in the extra time it will take because of non-meta people.

No, the term ‘meta’ has just been warped by people that are desperately trying to make it something it’s not.

There are no completion gear requirements for these dungeons, and there’s no competitive reactive element. Either of those could lead to the creation of a true meta.

In most games the meta refers to something competitive, and it can easily be put into 2 grand categories:
1) This style maximizes my chance of winning.
2) This is something I have to be aware of or else I can get destroyed by it.

To clarify the second example, let’s step out of GW for a second; If you play Netrunner, a Jinteki trap deck isn’t one of the top ‘meta’ decks in the first sense. It’s good, but not as good as a NBN astroscript or a RP deck. It’s part of the meta because if you aren’t aware of the deck and how it works, you’re most likely gonna lose.

ahem

Anyways, neither of those categories apply to GW2 PVE. You can optimize to various degrees if you everyone’s on the same page and knows what they’re diong, but it’s not required to compete and it’s not required to ‘not lose’.

People are competing against their own lack of time. That’s where the pressure factor is.

Meta means an optimal strategy.

Optimal to win, optimal to go fast, optimal to give you the best chance. Just the best way to do it.

Completing and not losing aren’t the only goals here. People who care about their time in this game have the added goal of : let’s do it as fast as possible while not losing.

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations;

I can’t tell you how to have fun. If you enjoy the maximizing and hate waste that much more power to you.

For myself, and I’m sure for others, the difference between 18 and 8 minutes doesn’t matter much. If I have 45 minutes to play, I might do a dungeon and go play in silverwastes for a bit, I can get basic enjoyment out of whaatever.

If I have a goal in a dungeon (say a collection completion) and am really tired of grinding it, hey the pvp track is pretty efficient, let’s go do that for a bit!

You guys REALLY need to understand that many people don’t care about the way you play, just like people who don’t care about speed runs need to understand that this can increase the fun for you.

It’s all optional. Every kittening thing and style in this game is optional.

~~~

Now I admit, when I read all the talk about time wasted! my first thought is ‘man people must not enjoy actually playing much, maybe they need to take a break’, but I’m going to presume it’s more that they become annoyed that they’re being inefficient. It’s still part of their fun then. It’s not part of my fun to stress about how I’m wasting time, and it’s not part of many people’s fun.

Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

All I ever wanted was that the people who don’t care about the way I play stay well clear of me and my parties and all is well. Sadly that does not happen. Even when I clearly post that I’m looking for people like myself.

Also – it’s not forcing it “on the entire community”. It’s not forcing it at all. You want to run with the groups of people who care about their time? play to their expectations.
You don’t? Nobody cares – just don’t interfere and make your own groups.

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Leo G.4501:

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

Segregation only goes so far.

The reason a lot of us don’t buy into this elitism or discrimination/segregation argument is that rather than “do’s vs do-not’s” or “are vs are-not’s”, it’s “choose vs choose-not’s”.

This “meta” is optional on so many levels that people are no longer being excluded against their will. They are choosing to be excluded, and instead of trying to reach out to others who also chose to be excluded, they are choosing to play some victim card and guilt trip everyone else for their own choice.

Well who’s in the majority, then? Whether who plays the victim card, it tend to be the majority who had the power.

But that might be a bad question since the meta feels like an abuse of power. Instead of using the knowledge and power gained to fix and improve the game, it’s somehow leaked to the general populace where now it’s altered the game into a speed chug loot grab. And i know the original meta players likely don’t even care about loot but perhaps they did try to get the devs to fix things but the devs didn’t listen?

But yeah, we get it. Meta optional. Blah blah is playing the victim (blah blah=both sides, because they both do). Does any of that work toward helping the problem?

Please stop with the speculation. You have no idea what ‘the original meta players’ intended.

I ran with groups that tried to establish a meta when the game begun and I can tell you our only intent was to get dungeon tokens and silver faster.

Harper.4173:

I ran with groups that tried to establish a meta when the game begun and I can tell you our only intent was to get dungeon tokens and silver faster.

Correct. I was one of those people and yes, the goal was to find a strategy that took the least effort yet was the fastest at delivering me the silver and token rewards. Dungeons were not run for “fun”, it was the end rewards all along.

DaveGan.8065:

Leo G.4501:

Well people have seemed to focus down on the community problem which was the subject of that post. . .

You mean the toxic entitled vocal minority that doesn’t help themselves by making their own groups or switching gear?

See where this is going now that you’ve opened the can of worms about “perspective”?

And? The pot calling the kettle black doesn’t make either more right than the other.

Seera.5916:

Leo G.4501:

Seera.5916:

And I don’t know if you meant to come off that way, but you came off as not accepting that the 10 minute run of the same dungeon was an acceptable time either. I personally didn’t see the harshness in their responses to you, but everyone reads into posts differently.

1-4 is noted and understood. As for 3, the magic word I was looking for was “rewards” or “loot”. Greed is a strong motivator and is what a subset of the meta community (those that perfect it, those that simply advocate it, ect) is driven by.

As for the quoted, what possible reason would I not accept a 10 min time as acceptable? The original post where I question that didn’t even disparage a lower time or have a measured shorter time to begin with.

As for 5, I feel a decent dose of perspective would help all parties. Stepping into other’s shoes for a sec might reveal truths about them or ourselves we didn’t once realize. I’d say having stronger community bonds would help but that might be asking too much.

3. But faster speeds mean more loot/rewards in a given time. So don’t see how they should be separate reasons.

5. Might help some. But the truly rude ones will just find something else to be rude about. Can’t get rid of them all.

And like I said, I don’t think you meant to come off the way you did.

Well I know there are speed runners out there who want the prestige of holding a record or heck, just to say they know how to speed run. I figure loot to them is more a consolation prize since most of the times the reward comes in from multiple runs.

Harper.4173:

All I ever wanted was that the people who don’t care about the way I play stay well clear of me and my parties and all is well. Sadly that does not happen. Even when I clearly post that I’m looking for people like myself.

Also – it’s not forcing it “on the entire community”. It’s not forcing it at all. You want to run with the groups of people who care about their time? play to their expectations.
You don’t? Nobody cares – just don’t interfere and make your own groups.

That, as you say, does not happen. In all likelihood, it will never happen. Unless lfg tool adds filters to only let certain gear/trait type in. But that would come with its own problems:

What if they change the armor with same skin but different stat? Have a system to continuously monitor gear throughout the instance. What if gear breaks? Require party members to ping repair canisters &/or additional sets of gear with required stat but differing skin. Now all that seems a bit drastic… but i would be ok with it. I have no intention of using such features. To each their own.

However, solutions like these are temporary at best. Ignoring/isolating the problem won’t make it go away. We do interact with each other as it is an mmo. Influence spreads across the whole game. I have seen parties trying to gather similarly geared toons for dynamic events (last i remember was during maw… not sure why though) in open world. While that in itself isn’t a problem as of yet, it does set a dangerous precedent. There is no way to not-interact during open world content short of map change and that isn’t always going to happen. Not bothering others is one thing but inconveniencing yourself for someone else’s convenience (regardless if it takes an hour or half a second) isn’t a choice for all… definitely not for me.

But why berserker? As many have pointed out before, meta (for lack of better word) will always be there. Zerkers wouldn’t get so much hate (or love… however you want to see it) if it wasn’t efficient everywhere. Yes…a skill or trait might be needed here & there… but for a vast, overwhelming majority of the time, its efficiency is unmatched. And even when it isn’t best, it is good enough to get through (when used by the right player). Such universal approach (combined with locked traits… curtsey of NPE changes and widespread appeal of zerk) renders experimenting/investing in anything else meaningless & gives it undue influence over all aspects of the game. I myself witnessed another new player geared all zerk simply because “everyone else doin it”.

IMHO, recent additions to the game have done much (compared to the past at least) to increase usefulness of other stats but much more is needed. Changes need to be implemented across the board. Also, active defenses need to be tied to your stat combo. As it is now, active damage mitigation has little-to-nothing to do with your build and it is good enough to decide the outcome of a fight. In its face, build diversity (apart from time differences) means nothing.

Seera.5916:

It would be nice however if Control and Support got a boost in usefulness, but not at the expense of zerker builds being trashed.

Control and support are already ridiculously powerful which is why full glass setups are so powerful in pve. If your guardian can reflect the projectiles, your deep freeze can CC the boss for 5 seconds and your thief can blind the trash mobs you can put out some really impressive DPS.

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

You realise the short dungeon times were designed for those with limited time for a play session?

Many of them are short deliberately.

You speak as if you designed those dungeons yourself. Which one did your team design?

PS: 20min is short. When I had limited my playtime to around 45min, I could definitely finish a dungeon, if not multiple paths in a PuG.

20 minutes is relative.

To me for a dungeon path it’s insanely long.
To you it’s just right or short.

It doesn’t matter. Right now the game allows for both of us to run it in our chosen time-frame and doesn’t force either one of us to take longer or shorter than we want to.

That’s what’s good about GW2.

That aside – dungeons in this game were designed to be short and unpunishing so that casual players can do them with some degree of success.

There’s another factor at hand here – rewards – and the experience lasting longer does not imply the player being better rewarded. Plus – in the current state of the economy dungeon rewards are borderline bad.

Then say it’s “too long for you” in the first place. Less informed people see these things and it paints an expectation that, IMO is unreasonable for an mmo dungeon perspective. It’s already bad enough there is only a mild aftertaste of plot within these dungeons and that choice of actions is only an illusion, but reinforcing the expectation that they should only take 10 min only makes dungeon experiences cheaper for the foreseeable future.