Guild Wars 2

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

Silly is a subjective word, and unless the gain is exactly zero I don’t think you get to be the sole authority and set the threshold for what is or isn’t trivial.

Back on point, though: we’re profiling. Asking for “zerker meta” is more likely to get us a player who knows the encounter, knows how to use combo fields, has gear specced for optimal DPS, has utilities and traits beneficial to the group (or at least a player with a few of these things).

I’m not even sure you can keep a serious face while telling me that a group of “CoE P2 all welcome” will finish in about the same time as “CoE P2 experienced please”, and even “CoE P2 meta zerker ping gear”.

And if it turns out that we did get a troll who joined without meeting our requirements in LFG, then we’d be justified in retaliation up to and including kicking him at the last boss because he was never legitimately a member of our group.

It’s the internet, of course I get to say :p

I think the profiling thing is spot on, except it’s not a great profiling tool, and for most runs you don’t need to profile… except people think they do. It’s this self-fulfilling and self-defeating act that people just go with, and it’s harmful.

The zerk meta is a classic false meta because it’s mainly there because we say it’s there. Pug dungeon runs aren’t competitive (which drives pvp and raiding metas) and the content isn’t so hard that meta builds are even remotely required.

“The zerk meta is a classic false meta” – this is a blatant lie.

I’ve been recently trying to finish my CM collection ( done yesterday) and have been doing CM for quite a bit.

Did P3 yesterday with a “no requirements, no stress, no zerker” group just to see what it’s like.

It too 18 minutes for a p3 of CM. Good players will know what that means.

Nobody went afk and the lowest AP was 7 k or something which meant people at least weren’t new to the game.

Had I gone with a meta full zerker PUG group we’d have been done in less than 9 minutes.

That’s 9 minutes of my life wasted because people want to “play how I want”.

So no – it’s not a made up concept.
An average of 8 minutes extra per dungeon run if you do 5-6 dungeons does matter. You could watch a TV show in the extra time it will take because of non-meta people.

No, the term ‘meta’ has just been warped by people that are desperately trying to make it something it’s not.

There are no completion gear requirements for these dungeons, and there’s no competitive reactive element. Either of those could lead to the creation of a true meta.

In most games the meta refers to something competitive, and it can easily be put into 2 grand categories:
1) This style maximizes my chance of winning.
2) This is something I have to be aware of or else I can get destroyed by it.

To clarify the second example, let’s step out of GW for a second; If you play Netrunner, a Jinteki trap deck isn’t one of the top ‘meta’ decks in the first sense. It’s good, but not as good as a NBN astroscript or a RP deck. It’s part of the meta because if you aren’t aware of the deck and how it works, you’re most likely gonna lose.

ahem

Anyways, neither of those categories apply to GW2 PVE. You can optimize to various degrees if you everyone’s on the same page and knows what they’re diong, but it’s not required to compete and it’s not required to ‘not lose’.

People are competing against their own lack of time. That’s where the pressure factor is.

Meta means an optimal strategy.

Optimal to win, optimal to go fast, optimal to give you the best chance. Just the best way to do it.

Completing and not losing aren’t the only goals here. People who care about their time in this game have the added goal of : let’s do it as fast as possible while not losing.

I know you’re not actually saying it, but the way you word your argument seems to be to give your goals priority or importance by stating “people who care about their time spent in the game” as if the people with a contrary point of view somehow “don’t care about their time spent in the game” which I disagree with.

Granted that’s not what you said but it’s possible to get that tone from your post.

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

You realise the short dungeon times were designed for those with limited time for a play session?

Many of them are short deliberately.

You speak as if you designed those dungeons yourself. Which one did your team design?

PS: 20min is short. When I had limited my playtime to around 45min, I could definitely finish a dungeon, if not multiple paths in a PuG.

20 minutes is relative.

To me for a dungeon path it’s insanely long.
To you it’s just right or short.

It doesn’t matter. Right now the game allows for both of us to run it in our chosen time-frame and doesn’t force either one of us to take longer or shorter than we want to.

That’s what’s good about GW2.

That aside – dungeons in this game were designed to be short and unpunishing so that casual players can do them with some degree of success.

There’s another factor at hand here – rewards – and the experience lasting longer does not imply the player being better rewarded. Plus – in the current state of the economy dungeon rewards are borderline bad.

Then say it’s “too long for you” in the first place. Less informed people see these things and it paints an expectation that, IMO is unreasonable for an mmo dungeon perspective. It’s already bad enough there is only a mild aftertaste of plot within these dungeons and that choice of actions is only an illusion, but reinforcing the expectation that they should only take 10 min only makes dungeon experiences cheaper for the foreseeable future.

It seems really strange that you do so adamantly ignore the fact that you can “experience” the same content only a very limited amount of times. But I guess that happens when you don´t argue obversations, but follow some ideological agenda – in your case, special treatment of entitlement under the guise of egalitarianism. When the ohhhs and ahhhs fade, yes, of course it becomes a matter of efficiency. Be it zerker wearing speed runner or flower sniffing noob in cleric.

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Leo G.4501:

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

Segregation only goes so far.

The reason a lot of us don’t buy into this elitism or discrimination/segregation argument is that rather than “do’s vs do-not’s” or “are vs are-not’s”, it’s “choose vs choose-not’s”.

This “meta” is optional on so many levels that people are no longer being excluded against their will. They are choosing to be excluded, and instead of trying to reach out to others who also chose to be excluded, they are choosing to play some victim card and guilt trip everyone else for their own choice.

Well who’s in the majority, then? Whether who plays the victim card, it tend to be the majority who had the power.

But that might be a bad question since the meta feels like an abuse of power. Instead of using the knowledge and power gained to fix and improve the game, it’s somehow leaked to the general populace where now it’s altered the game into a speed chug loot grab. And i know the original meta players likely don’t even care about loot but perhaps they did try to get the devs to fix things but the devs didn’t listen?

But yeah, we get it. Meta optional. Blah blah is playing the victim (blah blah=both sides, because they both do). Does any of that work toward helping the problem?

Please stop with the speculation. You have no idea what ‘the original meta players’ intended.

I ran with groups that tried to establish a meta when the game begun and I can tell you our only intent was to get dungeon tokens and silver faster.

I see. So I’m not allowed to speculate on the goals of the original meta players but others can speculate all day on how the dungeons were ‘designed’ to be ran? Seems rather unfair.

How about everyone stop worrying about how everyone else is playing the game and just start enjoying it.

Choose a playstyle you enjoy and make that your “meta” (a word that really has no meaning outside of very small online circles, btw).

If you run into people who don’t like how you choose to play, then simply don’t play with them anymore. Problem solved.

I think people would have alot more fun if they stopped taking the game quite so seriously.

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Leo G.4501:

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

Segregation only goes so far.

The reason a lot of us don’t buy into this elitism or discrimination/segregation argument is that rather than “do’s vs do-not’s” or “are vs are-not’s”, it’s “choose vs choose-not’s”.

This “meta” is optional on so many levels that people are no longer being excluded against their will. They are choosing to be excluded, and instead of trying to reach out to others who also chose to be excluded, they are choosing to play some victim card and guilt trip everyone else for their own choice.

Well who’s in the majority, then? Whether who plays the victim card, it tend to be the majority who had the power.

But that might be a bad question since the meta feels like an abuse of power. Instead of using the knowledge and power gained to fix and improve the game, it’s somehow leaked to the general populace where now it’s altered the game into a speed chug loot grab. And i know the original meta players likely don’t even care about loot but perhaps they did try to get the devs to fix things but the devs didn’t listen?

But yeah, we get it. Meta optional. Blah blah is playing the victim (blah blah=both sides, because they both do). Does any of that work toward helping the problem?

Please stop with the speculation. You have no idea what ‘the original meta players’ intended.

I ran with groups that tried to establish a meta when the game begun and I can tell you our only intent was to get dungeon tokens and silver faster.

I see. So I’m not allowed to speculate on the goals of the original meta players but others can speculate all day on how the dungeons were ‘designed’ to be ran? Seems rather unfair.

The difference is, you are arguing with the people who did establish the meta. They are telling you that you are wrong.

However the design of dungeons was discussed by anet around and prior to launch.

Leo G.4501:

I see. So I’m not allowed to speculate on the goals of the original meta players but others can speculate all day on how the dungeons were ‘designed’ to be ran? Seems rather unfair.

Why speculate, I’m still here you can ask me?

Fun fact: the original “meta builds” had a lot of Knights gear in them. I have a long memory.

Algreg.3629:

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

You realise the short dungeon times were designed for those with limited time for a play session?

Many of them are short deliberately.

You speak as if you designed those dungeons yourself. Which one did your team design?

PS: 20min is short. When I had limited my playtime to around 45min, I could definitely finish a dungeon, if not multiple paths in a PuG.

20 minutes is relative.

To me for a dungeon path it’s insanely long.
To you it’s just right or short.

It doesn’t matter. Right now the game allows for both of us to run it in our chosen time-frame and doesn’t force either one of us to take longer or shorter than we want to.

That’s what’s good about GW2.

That aside – dungeons in this game were designed to be short and unpunishing so that casual players can do them with some degree of success.

There’s another factor at hand here – rewards – and the experience lasting longer does not imply the player being better rewarded. Plus – in the current state of the economy dungeon rewards are borderline bad.

Then say it’s “too long for you” in the first place. Less informed people see these things and it paints an expectation that, IMO is unreasonable for an mmo dungeon perspective. It’s already bad enough there is only a mild aftertaste of plot within these dungeons and that choice of actions is only an illusion, but reinforcing the expectation that they should only take 10 min only makes dungeon experiences cheaper for the foreseeable future.

It seems really strange that you do so adamantly ignore the fact that you can “experience” the same content only a very limited amount of times. But I guess that happens when you don´t argue obversations, but follow some ideological agenda – in your case, special treatment of entitlement under the guise of egalitarianism. When the ohhhs and ahhhs fade, yes, of course it becomes a matter of efficiency. Be it zerker wearing speed runner or flower sniffing noob in cleric.

Well it’d be asking too much for you guys to back the real solution to dungeon content by simply not running them (at least not as often). Part of the reason for the trickle of permanent dungeons is because they know you’ll run bare minimum over and over until you’re on the rims if they put a carrot of some sort at the end. It skews the general purpose for the content toward rewards and away from the other various reasons they were ran.

After getting my ranger to max level after constant bickering and moaning that I should switch her in for the end just pushed me to the point of running fractals until I was completely bored. . .

That said, the ohhs and ahhs don’t really fade that fast for everyone and when it does, shouldn’t you be questioning yourselves if you should continue when the game is meant for that? Don’t want to go on a rant about ‘fun’ but at some point you should be asking what it’s all for.

Blaeys.3102:

If you run into people who don’t like how you choose to play, then simply don’t play with them anymore. Problem solved.

The problem is people very rarely bother to read the lfg description.
People are also wildly opposed to allowing us to filter lfg joins by things like class or level (not even gear, or build, or AP).

Then they wonder why they get kicked.

- This being even more of an issue when the lfg then bugs and you can’t edit or repost after having to kick someone who couldn’t be kitten d to read.

I wonder how many times this will be posted before everyone gets the message..

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Leo G.4501:

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

Segregation only goes so far.

The reason a lot of us don’t buy into this elitism or discrimination/segregation argument is that rather than “do’s vs do-not’s” or “are vs are-not’s”, it’s “choose vs choose-not’s”.

This “meta” is optional on so many levels that people are no longer being excluded against their will. They are choosing to be excluded, and instead of trying to reach out to others who also chose to be excluded, they are choosing to play some victim card and guilt trip everyone else for their own choice.

Well who’s in the majority, then? Whether who plays the victim card, it tend to be the majority who had the power.

But that might be a bad question since the meta feels like an abuse of power. Instead of using the knowledge and power gained to fix and improve the game, it’s somehow leaked to the general populace where now it’s altered the game into a speed chug loot grab. And i know the original meta players likely don’t even care about loot but perhaps they did try to get the devs to fix things but the devs didn’t listen?

But yeah, we get it. Meta optional. Blah blah is playing the victim (blah blah=both sides, because they both do). Does any of that work toward helping the problem?

Please stop with the speculation. You have no idea what ‘the original meta players’ intended.

I ran with groups that tried to establish a meta when the game begun and I can tell you our only intent was to get dungeon tokens and silver faster.

I see. So I’m not allowed to speculate on the goals of the original meta players but others can speculate all day on how the dungeons were ‘designed’ to be ran? Seems rather unfair.

The difference is, you are arguing with the people who did establish the meta. They are telling you that you are wrong.

However the design of dungeons was discussed by anet around and prior to launch.

Nah, they may be the ones who established the current meta (not these posters though) but a lot of the real original players who started if all are mostly gone.

And I’d laugh in your face if you expect me to belive the ones posting in this thread are the only ones responsible and therefore know the entirety of intent.

hybrid.5027:

Leo G.4501:

I see. So I’m not allowed to speculate on the goals of the original meta players but others can speculate all day on how the dungeons were ‘designed’ to be ran? Seems rather unfair.

Why speculate, I’m still here you can ask me?

Fun fact: the original “meta builds” had a lot of Knights gear in them. I have a long memory.

I remember. I played the meta when it was often changing. I’m not going to claim I made the meta though, that’d be quite egotistical.

Leo G.4501:

Well it’d be asking too much for you guys to back the real solution to dungeon content by simply not running them (at least not as often).

So.. Now the solution is what?
play less?
stop playing?

kk, bye then.
TTFN.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Leo G.4501:

Well it’d be asking too much for you guys to back the real solution to dungeon content by simply not running them (at least not as often).

So.. Now the solution is what?
play less?
stop playing?

kk, bye then.
TTFN.

No, the damage is done. Too late to go boycotting for new content now.

Leo G.4501:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Leo G.4501:

Well it’d be asking too much for you guys to back the real solution to dungeon content by simply not running them (at least not as often).

So.. Now the solution is what?
play less?
stop playing?

kk, bye then.
TTFN.

No, the damage is done. Too late to go boycotting for new content now.

Well make up your kitten mind! sheesh.

Leo G.4501:

And I’d laugh in your face if you expect me to belive the ones posting in this thread are the only ones responsible and therefore know the entirety of intent.

Sorry to provoke laughter but… my name is Nike. In September 2012 I met Strife, and we began speed running dungeons and when fractals were released our group progressed. You may remember him, you may not. Strife was the first player to publish good speed run guides for every dungeon path as well as class guides for the original gw2 meta team comp of triple warrior, mesmer, guardian.

You won’t remember, but the “original meta” warrior build used 3 pieces of Knights gear on the armor as well as Ruby Orbs. The Guardian uses full Knights armor and weapons with berserker trinkets and ruby orbs along with AH. The mesmer was the only character that was run full berserker.

It wasn’t until much later on (around January 2013) that people got skilled enough to where Scholar Runes became recognized as optimal or to where people stopped seeing a benefit in using Knights gear at all.

Guang was instrumental in demonstrating that a full glass DPS guardian was viable in PVE. Kitsune was the original developer of the Lightning Hammer Elementalist which brought Ele’s into the meta. Shadow Espada showed the DPS potential of the Thief in an organized group.

A lot of people from the whole community contributed quite a bit to the development of the meta, but generally speaking it was Strife and our guild that set the ball in motion.

I’m there since the beginning and I can attest most of what Hybrid said there. I remember the discussions and video back from guru forums. Strife was the best known back then. Remember the knight armor, the AH Anchor build, the Ruby orbs. I remember the first post from Kitsune on the LH Elementalist, and the first test when strike and co brought him in an organized run to show the potential (I think it was in Arah). I remember the guang famous math on the Guardian dps.

Ah that was such a long time ago

I only remember my awesome one-line math on Scholar runes when people told me they are bad.

My knowledge of meta came late around last December. Ele owes it to DEKeyz who has made the holy bible for meta builds in dungeons. She (and DnT) brought to the general public attention the significance of might stacking and vulnerability stacking. [rT] and Zelyhn demonstrated the enormous potential of stacking ele in their 5-ele Lupi burst video and how FGS can be used to demolish every single things. [SC] has made mesmer’s portal fashionable in their series of record runs. The current meta has gotten many iterations and evolved thanks to the speedrun community’s effort.

And their goal? Faster is better and more challenging, thus more fun.

Edit: Credits to Wethospu, who discovers boss mechanics, HP, patterns, etc. He is boss!

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Very well done and thought out analogy. Now will the kids learn to play with those that want to play like them, I seriously doubt it. The type of person coming in the forums and complaining about zerkers and griefing others rather than creating their own lfm has issues that make it so they can not comprehend what an kitten they being. In fact many of them feel that they are in the right to be an kitten. So even though the answer is so simple, create their own lfm or join an lfm that is accepting of how they want to play, I just don’t see that type of person doing it.

Pass me the popcorn … I prefer the salty one but at a push I could have the sweet one.
This is the most interesting thread so far.

TPMN.1483:

Pass me the popcorn … I prefer the salty one but at a push I could have the sweet one.
This is the most interesting thread so far.

You’re right, the folks checking their props on each other are pretty great

On that note, were you straight up or not with that ‘DESERVE’ stuff? It’s gold either way, but it’s worth knowing.

MikeyGrey.2496:

Harper.4173:

All I ever wanted was that the people who don’t care about the way I play stay well clear of me and my parties and all is well. Sadly that does not happen. Even when I clearly post that I’m looking for people like myself.

Also – it’s not forcing it “on the entire community”. It’s not forcing it at all. You want to run with the groups of people who care about their time? play to their expectations.
You don’t? Nobody cares – just don’t interfere and make your own groups.

That, as you say, does not happen. In all likelihood, it will never happen. Unless lfg tool adds filters to only let certain gear/trait type in. But that would come with its own problems:

What if they change the armor with same skin but different stat? Have a system to continuously monitor gear throughout the instance. What if gear breaks? Require party members to ping repair canisters &/or additional sets of gear with required stat but differing skin. Now all that seems a bit drastic… but i would be ok with it. I have no intention of using such features. To each their own.

However, solutions like these are temporary at best. Ignoring/isolating the problem won’t make it go away. We do interact with each other as it is an mmo. Influence spreads across the whole game. I have seen parties trying to gather similarly geared toons for dynamic events (last i remember was during maw… not sure why though) in open world. While that in itself isn’t a problem as of yet, it does set a dangerous precedent. There is no way to not-interact during open world content short of map change and that isn’t always going to happen. Not bothering others is one thing but inconveniencing yourself for someone else’s convenience (regardless if it takes an hour or half a second) isn’t a choice for all… definitely not for me.

But why berserker? As many have pointed out before, meta (for lack of better word) will always be there. Zerkers wouldn’t get so much hate (or love… however you want to see it) if it wasn’t efficient everywhere. Yes…a skill or trait might be needed here & there… but for a vast, overwhelming majority of the time, its efficiency is unmatched. And even when it isn’t best, it is good enough to get through (when used by the right player). Such universal approach (combined with locked traits… curtsey of NPE changes and widespread appeal of zerk) renders experimenting/investing in anything else meaningless & gives it undue influence over all aspects of the game. I myself witnessed another new player geared all zerk simply because “everyone else doin it”.

IMHO, recent additions to the game have done much (compared to the past at least) to increase usefulness of other stats but much more is needed. Changes need to be implemented across the board. Also, active defenses need to be tied to your stat combo. As it is now, active damage mitigation has little-to-nothing to do with your build and it is good enough to decide the outcome of a fight. In its face, build diversity (apart from time differences) means nothing.

I can monitor if they switch armor to another set with different stats and same skin. The moment they get hit ( and they will) and I see their HP not going down hard enough ( and it won’t) I’ll know they pulled a fast one and kick with the fury of 1000 angry suns.

Same goes if the boss doesn’t melt properly – I’ll become suspicious and upon finding the culprit swift retribution will rain down.

You can play how you want in GW2. What you can’t do is trample of over people and trick them by not adhering to party requirements – I won’t stand for it.

Zerker is not optimal in all cases – look at Teq. Look at Wurm.

A good player can perform well in zerker gear because like you said “the right player” has a right do to it. He’s invested time and effort in getting good and being skilled.

If a new player wants to go with what the majority is doing – why is that wrong? The person obviously wants to not waste time trying to figure out the meta.

Do you think if I started a new MMO today I would try to blindly try every build and spec and see what’s optimal?
I would just research it and get it from the start – that’s not wrong – it’s common sense.

Man, that’s an intensely paranoid attitude in general.

You’re at best constantly suspecting that people are lying to you and waiting to go “AHA! GOTCHA YOU KITTEN!”

Honestly it sounds like a miserable way to live.

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

You realise the short dungeon times were designed for those with limited time for a play session?

Many of them are short deliberately.

You speak as if you designed those dungeons yourself. Which one did your team design?

PS: 20min is short. When I had limited my playtime to around 45min, I could definitely finish a dungeon, if not multiple paths in a PuG.

20 minutes is relative.

To me for a dungeon path it’s insanely long.
To you it’s just right or short.

It doesn’t matter. Right now the game allows for both of us to run it in our chosen time-frame and doesn’t force either one of us to take longer or shorter than we want to.

That’s what’s good about GW2.

That aside – dungeons in this game were designed to be short and unpunishing so that casual players can do them with some degree of success.

There’s another factor at hand here – rewards – and the experience lasting longer does not imply the player being better rewarded. Plus – in the current state of the economy dungeon rewards are borderline bad.

Then say it’s “too long for you” in the first place. Less informed people see these things and it paints an expectation that, IMO is unreasonable for an mmo dungeon perspective. It’s already bad enough there is only a mild aftertaste of plot within these dungeons and that choice of actions is only an illusion, but reinforcing the expectation that they should only take 10 min only makes dungeon experiences cheaper for the foreseeable future.

News :

The dungeon experience is dead. It was dead 6 months after release.
It’s just been rinse and repeat.

Also I’m not saying they should only take 10 minutes but I am saying that they take enough if not too much time for the poor rewards offered.

Harper.4173:

MikeyGrey.2496:

Harper.4173:

All I ever wanted was that the people who don’t care about the way I play stay well clear of me and my parties and all is well. Sadly that does not happen. Even when I clearly post that I’m looking for people like myself.

Also – it’s not forcing it “on the entire community”. It’s not forcing it at all. You want to run with the groups of people who care about their time? play to their expectations.
You don’t? Nobody cares – just don’t interfere and make your own groups.

That, as you say, does not happen. In all likelihood, it will never happen. Unless lfg tool adds filters to only let certain gear/trait type in. But that would come with its own problems:

What if they change the armor with same skin but different stat? Have a system to continuously monitor gear throughout the instance. What if gear breaks? Require party members to ping repair canisters &/or additional sets of gear with required stat but differing skin. Now all that seems a bit drastic… but i would be ok with it. I have no intention of using such features. To each their own.

However, solutions like these are temporary at best. Ignoring/isolating the problem won’t make it go away. We do interact with each other as it is an mmo. Influence spreads across the whole game. I have seen parties trying to gather similarly geared toons for dynamic events (last i remember was during maw… not sure why though) in open world. While that in itself isn’t a problem as of yet, it does set a dangerous precedent. There is no way to not-interact during open world content short of map change and that isn’t always going to happen. Not bothering others is one thing but inconveniencing yourself for someone else’s convenience (regardless if it takes an hour or half a second) isn’t a choice for all… definitely not for me.

But why berserker? As many have pointed out before, meta (for lack of better word) will always be there. Zerkers wouldn’t get so much hate (or love… however you want to see it) if it wasn’t efficient everywhere. Yes…a skill or trait might be needed here & there… but for a vast, overwhelming majority of the time, its efficiency is unmatched. And even when it isn’t best, it is good enough to get through (when used by the right player). Such universal approach (combined with locked traits… curtsey of NPE changes and widespread appeal of zerk) renders experimenting/investing in anything else meaningless & gives it undue influence over all aspects of the game. I myself witnessed another new player geared all zerk simply because “everyone else doin it”.

IMHO, recent additions to the game have done much (compared to the past at least) to increase usefulness of other stats but much more is needed. Changes need to be implemented across the board. Also, active defenses need to be tied to your stat combo. As it is now, active damage mitigation has little-to-nothing to do with your build and it is good enough to decide the outcome of a fight. In its face, build diversity (apart from time differences) means nothing.

I can monitor if they switch armor to another set with different stats and same skin. The moment they get hit ( and they will) and I see their HP not going down hard enough ( and it won’t) I’ll know they pulled a fast one and kick with the fury of 1000 angry suns.

Same goes if the boss doesn’t melt properly – I’ll become suspicious and upon finding the culprit swift retribution will rain down.

You can play how you want in GW2. What you can’t do is trample of over people and trick them by not adhering to party requirements – I won’t stand for it.

Wow. I hope I never end up in one of your parties. God forbid the phone ring or I have to use the bathroom or turn away from the screen for a minute. This is what the game needs less of on display right here.

Leo G.4501:

Harper.4173:

Leo G.4501:

DaveGan.8065:

Leo G.4501:

I can agree with you that it is optional but maybe you should try policing up your ‘subset’ every now and then and perhaps there wouldn’t be so much animosity between the do’s and do-not’s.

Segregation only goes so far.

The reason a lot of us don’t buy into this elitism or discrimination/segregation argument is that rather than “do’s vs do-not’s” or “are vs are-not’s”, it’s “choose vs choose-not’s”.

This “meta” is optional on so many levels that people are no longer being excluded against their will. They are choosing to be excluded, and instead of trying to reach out to others who also chose to be excluded, they are choosing to play some victim card and guilt trip everyone else for their own choice.

Well who’s in the majority, then? Whether who plays the victim card, it tend to be the majority who had the power.

But that might be a bad question since the meta feels like an abuse of power. Instead of using the knowledge and power gained to fix and improve the game, it’s somehow leaked to the general populace where now it’s altered the game into a speed chug loot grab. And i know the original meta players likely don’t even care about loot but perhaps they did try to get the devs to fix things but the devs didn’t listen?

But yeah, we get it. Meta optional. Blah blah is playing the victim (blah blah=both sides, because they both do). Does any of that work toward helping the problem?

Please stop with the speculation. You have no idea what ‘the original meta players’ intended.

I ran with groups that tried to establish a meta when the game begun and I can tell you our only intent was to get dungeon tokens and silver faster.

I see. So I’m not allowed to speculate on the goals of the original meta players but others can speculate all day on how the dungeons were ‘designed’ to be ran? Seems rather unfair.

I haven’t seen you on the forums much – I suspect you weren’t here at launch. And if you were you’d have known what the original meta players were doing.

There’s no reason for you to speculate because you were either here and knew what the deal was or weren’t in which case you’re just making uninformed speculative posts.

Ask around – those players – some of them are still here.

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Pass me the popcorn … I prefer the salty one but at a push I could have the sweet one.
This is the most interesting thread so far.

You’re right, the folks checking their props on each other are pretty great
On that note, were you straight up or not with that ‘DESERVE’ stuff? It’s gold either way, but it’s worth knowing.

Laugh all you want – the people above who helped create and shaped the meta deserve recognition. They did something for all of us.
They gave us tools in order to obtain that which we strive for faster and more efficiently.

What have you done?

CMM.6712:

Wow. I hope I never end up in one of your parties. God forbid the phone ring or I have to use the bathroom or turn away from the screen for a minute. This is what the game needs less of on display right here.

Actually you’re wrong.

If you have a valid reason to not perform or go afk just stating so in party chat will be alright and it won’t be a problem.
Nobody can predict RL interference to the game. If it’s managed reasonably quick then there’s no real problem.

The problem are people “sneaking in” to runs where the people in the party don’t want them only to be able to brag about it on the forums later.

Harper.4173:

CMM.6712:

Wow. I hope I never end up in one of your parties. God forbid the phone ring or I have to use the bathroom or turn away from the screen for a minute. This is what the game needs less of on display right here.

Actually you’re wrong.

If you have a valid reason to not perform or go afk just stating so in party chat will be alright and it won’t be a problem.
Nobody can predict RL interference to the game. If it’s managed reasonably quick then there’s no real problem.

The problem are people “sneaking in” to runs where the people in the party don’t want them only to be able to brag about it on the forums later.

Fair enough. Thanks for a sensible and non-toxic reply, it is appreciated.
I do not play a game to have my performance monitored. I don’t feel it is right to be the “performance monitor” or the “party crasher”. I guess this is the reason I avoid dungeons, I feel no need to put up with any of this type of behavior. Is there a solution? I don’t know.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Pass me the popcorn … I prefer the salty one but at a push I could have the sweet one.
This is the most interesting thread so far.

You’re right, the folks checking their props on each other are pretty great
On that note, were you straight up or not with that ‘DESERVE’ stuff? It’s gold either way, but it’s worth knowing.

Laugh all you want – the people above who helped create and shaped the meta deserve recognition. They did something for all of us.
They gave us tools in order to obtain that which we strive for faster and more efficiently.

What have you done?

I’ve consistently enjoyed playing a game for over 2 years, even parts of it that you’ve declared ‘dead’.

Honestly expecting props for more than that is at the very best silly. A MMO isn’t an affirmation parade.

CMM.6712:

Fair enough. Thanks for a sensible and non-toxic reply, it is appreciated.
I do not play a game to have my performance monitored. I don’t feel it is right to be the “performance monitor” or the “party crasher”. I guess this is the reason I avoid dungeons, I feel no need to put up with any of this type of behavior. Is there a solution? I don’t know.

To be extremely blunt, it’s a degree of social anxiety. It’s not uncommon in multiplayer games, but the initiative ultimately belongs to you.

DaveGan.8065:

CMM.6712:

Fair enough. Thanks for a sensible and non-toxic reply, it is appreciated.
I do not play a game to have my performance monitored. I don’t feel it is right to be the “performance monitor” or the “party crasher”. I guess this is the reason I avoid dungeons, I feel no need to put up with any of this type of behavior. Is there a solution? I don’t know.

To be extremely blunt, it’s a degree of social anxiety. It’s not uncommon in multiplayer games, but the initiative ultimately belongs to you.

I’m not sure social anxiety is the right call here, maybe hassle aversion? Maybe I am just too old to want to put up with some BS? It’s not a problem for me though not doing dungeon content, I can do what I want/need to do, if I feel the need to do dungeons I will just not join a pug to do so.

Harper.4173:

I can monitor if they switch armor to another set with different stats and same skin. The moment they get hit ( and they will) and I see their HP not going down hard enough ( and it won’t) I’ll know they pulled a fast one and kick with the fury of 1000 angry suns.

Same goes if the boss doesn’t melt properly – I’ll become suspicious and upon finding the culprit swift retribution will rain down.

You can play how you want in GW2. What you can’t do is trample of over people and trick them by not adhering to party requirements – I won’t stand for it.

Zerker is not optimal in all cases – look at Teq. Look at Wurm.

A good player can perform well in zerker gear because like you said “the right player” has a right do to it. He’s invested time and effort in getting good and being skilled.

If a new player wants to go with what the majority is doing – why is that wrong? The person obviously wants to not waste time trying to figure out the meta.

Do you think if I started a new MMO today I would try to blindly try every build and spec and see what’s optimal?
I would just research it and get it from the start – that’s not wrong – it’s common sense.

Your detection abilities are great but that has nothing to do with my post. I was talking about the system monitoring all gears and kicking as an effect of escalation. Lies/deceit are not ok no matter the situation. On that note, you will see no arguments from me.

Teq/Wurm do have roles where other gear sets are useful… As i mentioned, there have been changes that promote some diversity but we need a lot more.

The thing with this style of combat is… you get good at it after some practice regardless of time or effort. After 2 years, its no great mystery. And not everyone values such things equally. I play to waste time so it holds no meaning for me. But… to each his own.

As for that new person… I got the vibe that he “obviously” hasn’t got a clue whats going on and is just blindly following the crowd. That’s not common sense and if it is, I’m happy to stick to the not-so-common sense and see what else game has to offer.

If this would have been a Harry potter MMO then you would have had to avada kedavra your way forward.

CMM.6712:

Harper.4173:

CMM.6712:

Wow. I hope I never end up in one of your parties. God forbid the phone ring or I have to use the bathroom or turn away from the screen for a minute. This is what the game needs less of on display right here.

Actually you’re wrong.

If you have a valid reason to not perform or go afk just stating so in party chat will be alright and it won’t be a problem.
Nobody can predict RL interference to the game. If it’s managed reasonably quick then there’s no real problem.

The problem are people “sneaking in” to runs where the people in the party don’t want them only to be able to brag about it on the forums later.

Fair enough. Thanks for a sensible and non-toxic reply, it is appreciated.
I do not play a game to have my performance monitored. I don’t feel it is right to be the “performance monitor” or the “party crasher”. I guess this is the reason I avoid dungeons, I feel no need to put up with any of this type of behavior. Is there a solution? I don’t know.

Run with friends. Get comfortable with the content. Get comfortable with your class and set-up.
When you feel up to it try pugs. Try to perform in glass gear – it’s the optimal way and most people prefer it that way.

I don’t mind new players who want to become like-minded. I don’t mind players that want to play how they want no matter how efficient it is.

I mind players that aren’t like me and don’t play like me joining my party and ruining the run. Because they feel entitled to “play how I want” regardless of the LFG requirement.

People like me – who care about performance – will pretty much keep an eye out for others’ performance.
However I and many others are less critical to people who want to learn and perform than we are towards those who are entitled to “play how they want” and refuse to change or adapt.

Windsagio.1340:

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Pass me the popcorn … I prefer the salty one but at a push I could have the sweet one.
This is the most interesting thread so far.

You’re right, the folks checking their props on each other are pretty great
On that note, were you straight up or not with that ‘DESERVE’ stuff? It’s gold either way, but it’s worth knowing.

Laugh all you want – the people above who helped create and shaped the meta deserve recognition. They did something for all of us.
They gave us tools in order to obtain that which we strive for faster and more efficiently.

What have you done?

I’ve consistently enjoyed playing a game for over 2 years, even parts of it that you’ve declared ‘dead’.

Honestly expecting props for more than that is at the very best silly. A MMO isn’t an affirmation parade.

Congratulations. I meant the “experience” was dead. The dungeons are pretty much going ok. People still run them.

But after about 6 months you can’t expect them to have the same shiny new impact they had the first few times you ran them.

Because they get old fast.
I still hear the random “Crea, are you alright?” in my head every now and then.

And an MMO isn’t affirmation parade but their work and dedication made my life easier. It got me my rewards faster. It got me to improve.

So yes – there’s a merit in that.

Windsagio.1340:

Man, that’s an intensely paranoid attitude in general.

You’re at best constantly suspecting that people are lying to you and waiting to go “AHA! GOTCHA YOU KITTEN!”

Honestly it sounds like a miserable way to live.

It is not paranoia to notice details in game that indicate a member of your party has chosen to not contribute, in the agreed upon manner, toward the group’s success.

Would it be paranoia for you to kick a player who goes AFK at the beginning of a dungeon run ?

Also, its a game. Not a way to live. I am going to go out on a limb right now and state that I do not think that he runs around wearing a bikini (claiming that it is armor) while swinging around a surfboard sized, “sword,” making, “whoosh, whoosh, whoosh,”
sounds and shouting, “For Great Justice,” as he is living his actual life.

Do you ?

MikeyGrey.2496:

Harper.4173:

I can monitor if they switch armor to another set with different stats and same skin. The moment they get hit ( and they will) and I see their HP not going down hard enough ( and it won’t) I’ll know they pulled a fast one and kick with the fury of 1000 angry suns.

Same goes if the boss doesn’t melt properly – I’ll become suspicious and upon finding the culprit swift retribution will rain down.

You can play how you want in GW2. What you can’t do is trample of over people and trick them by not adhering to party requirements – I won’t stand for it.

Zerker is not optimal in all cases – look at Teq. Look at Wurm.

A good player can perform well in zerker gear because like you said “the right player” has a right do to it. He’s invested time and effort in getting good and being skilled.

If a new player wants to go with what the majority is doing – why is that wrong? The person obviously wants to not waste time trying to figure out the meta.

Do you think if I started a new MMO today I would try to blindly try every build and spec and see what’s optimal?
I would just research it and get it from the start – that’s not wrong – it’s common sense.

Your detection abilities are great but that has nothing to do with my post. I was talking about the system monitoring all gears and kicking as an effect of escalation. Lies/deceit are not ok no matter the situation. On that note, you will see no arguments from me.

Teq/Wurm do have roles where other gear sets are useful… As i mentioned, there have been changes that promote some diversity but we need a lot more.

The thing with this style of combat is… you get good at it after some practice regardless of time or effort. After 2 years, its no great mystery. And not everyone values such things equally. I play to waste time so it holds no meaning for me. But… to each his own.

As for that new person… I got the vibe that he “obviously” hasn’t got a clue whats going on and is just blindly following the crowd. That’s not common sense and if it is, I’m happy to stick to the not-so-common sense and see what else game has to offer.

“you get good at it after practice regardless of time or effort” – tell that to the countless failed pug runs that wipe in every dungeon or even the open world.

Tell that to the countless would-be zerkers constantly dying and proving that zerker is in fact not easy to wear and perform in.

Tell it to the majority of the player base that still consider content challenging. Or difficult. Or whatnot.

You don’t get good at the game unless you step outside your comfort zone. And a lot of the whining and QQ on these forums comes from people who won’t step out of that comfort zone. Be it because they’re stubborn or afraid. Or don’t like being told what to.

Common sense – as a construct is exactly what it sounds like. When you have no idea what to do the most sensible idea is to adopt the common practice. Because the time and experiences of others have in most cases determined a somewhat above-average performing strategy that you can adopt saving yourself the hassle of having to try out everything yourself.

The whole concept revolves around using other people’s failures and experiences to your benefit. Where others failed they were forced to adapt and improve. You can simply pick up the latest iteration and use it for yourself.

Harper.4173:

The whole concept revolves around using other people’s failures and experiences to your benefit. Where others failed they were forced to adapt and improve. You can simply pick up the latest iteration and use it for yourself.

As a continuation of this thought:

This is not unique to games. All of human advancement is based on the idea of building on the work of those who have preceded you rather than having to start from scratch, reinventing the wheel as it were, for every possible endeavor.

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

The whole concept revolves around using other people’s failures and experiences to your benefit. Where others failed they were forced to adapt and improve. You can simply pick up the latest iteration and use it for yourself.

As a continuation of this thought:

This is not unique to games. All of human advancement is based on the idea of building on the work of those who have preceded you rather than having to start from scratch, reinventing the wheel as it were, for every possible endeavor.

Except the specifics of tuning speedruns aren’t that useful or meaningful to people that don’t care about speed runs

It’s like expecting props for advancements in cup stacking outside of the competitive cup stacking circuit(1).

(1)except cup stacking is harder to do and to figure out than GW2 stacking. Most of these advancements aren’t exactly rocket science, and it’s been a longterm process of development and refinement.

Then why do you say people who want to speed run are toxic to people who don’t want to speed run?

This societal/peer pressure thing you bring up is a joke. Pure and simple, it’s social anxiety and lack of initiative and community. Those things are up to the people who want to play how they want “enjoy the game to the fullest”.

We will not build your community for you, as we’ve spent enough time and effort building our own. Please don’t blame our “community” for your unwillingness to turn your own “group” into a “community”.

Those who call you guys “bad”—they do not speak for most of us, and generally most of us simply acknowledge that you are “different”. As I said before, the only times most of us use the word “bad” is when one of you tries to sneak into our groups, or when one of you tries to pass off your PHIW build in chat as optimal or close enough to optimal.

Unless you wish your own “group” and “playstyle” to be judged by the most toxic in your group, I kindly request you please stop judging ours by our worst role models as well.

This seems to just be a matter of a group of people wanting to force everyone to play the game their narrow-minded way. There will always be an optimal way to play any game at any given time, and usually good players gravitate towards that optimal way while bad players refuse to and complain.

There will always be a “meta” regardless of how the game is changed. If all of a sudden cleric gear is the optimal gear to equip for most game modes then that will become the new meta and the very same group of people will be here whining about that and saying how cleric gear is killing the game. Meanwhile the good players will simply adapt and play the game while the whiners will continue whining.

Okay so some people here seem confused what the metas are or even basics of a profession. I recently (today) asked for a zerk ele which had not traited anywhere nearly correctly (or did not want to join in ts3 ) it was obvious as the DPS drop in the group was significant. When asking what build – he was kicked and explained that he was not running enough dmg and wondered why we died. (We had ran out of active defenses – based on the expected damage output/time the fight should last – we already knew what traits he was running without having to be told). When asked to swap build they refused and the reason cited was ’I’m lazy’.

I politely explained to this ele that they did not meet the requirements for the group – we proceeded to 4 man and complete it. The 4 man is easier as the bosses don’t seem to scale as much kitten man teams.

Now for anyone who genuinely is wondering what is the meta?
How can I become good at my class or profession – there are several good guides to help explain how this game actually works (as opposed to how you want it to work).

I suggest looking at the profession sections on the gw2 forum and the following site for dungeons as a starter : http://www.gw2dungeons.net/?Builds it may not contain the latest and greatest information but will certainly help you understand your profession better and put you in a better place to contribute in a meta type team.

No-one likes the feeling of being carried all the time by others.
I genuinely believe there is a vast skill gap between PHIW -> Meta -> record speed clear running. Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

DaveGan.8065:

Then why do you say people who want to speed run are toxic to people who don’t want to speed run?

This societal/peer pressure thing you bring up is a joke. Pure and simple, it’s social anxiety and lack of initiative and community. Those things are up to the people who want to play how they want “enjoy the game to the fullest”.

We will not build your community for you, as we’ve spent enough time and effort building our own. Please don’t blame our “community” for your unwillingness to turn your own “group” into a “community”.

Those who call you guys “bad”—they do not speak for most of us, and generally most of us simply acknowledge that you are “different”. As I said before, the only times most of us use the word “bad” is when one of you tries to sneak into our groups, or when one of you tries to pass off your PHIW build in chat as optimal or close enough to optimal.

Unless you wish your own “group” and “playstyle” to be judged by the most toxic in your group, I kindly request you please stop judging ours by our worst role models as well.

Had a bit about that above, it’s probably a “Type A personality” thing. The people who tend to be drawn to things like speedruns (and lots of competition and lots of status) tend to be annoying for others to deal with. It’s not specific to your community, of course, but the things that would make you ‘rigidly organized and status conscious’ would make you annoying (if you prefer, toxic) to more laid back people.

The props thing is a great exmaple of this is the insistence on props and respect above. To people not into that it reads as pretty ugly and egotistical.

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

I don’t think I’ve ever really seen the ‘bads’ thing in (this) game, but it’s certainly come up enough in these two threads. I don’t want it framed as a ’you’re just mad’ thing, it’s more a ‘I play this game to have fun and I’ve had enough of this in other games’ thing.

Honestly I bring it up mainly because it fits the pattern, it’s a good puzzle piece; it fits so well in the (to quote wiki)

ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status-conscious, sensitive, impatient, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, anxious, proactive, and concerned with time management.

mindset.

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

The whole concept revolves around using other people’s failures and experiences to your benefit. Where others failed they were forced to adapt and improve. You can simply pick up the latest iteration and use it for yourself.

As a continuation of this thought:

This is not unique to games. All of human advancement is based on the idea of building on the work of those who have preceded you rather than having to start from scratch, reinventing the wheel as it were, for every possible endeavor.

Except the specifics of tuning speedruns aren’t that useful or meaningful to people that don’t care about speed runs

It’s like expecting props for advancements in cup stacking outside of the competitive cup stacking circuit(1).

(1)except cup stacking is harder to do and to figure out than GW2 stacking. Most of these advancements aren’t exactly rocket science, and it’s been a longterm process of development and refinement.

How useful something turns out to be is not particularly relevant to the fact that it is more effective to build upon existing work than it is to reinvent the wheel every time. There is no comment about expecting props there, just a statement about the effectiveness of building on existing work rather than starting from scratch.

As to the toxicity point,

I consider the people arguing that they do not like a specific playstyle and so it should not exist for others who do enjoy it to be the primary, and most severe, source of toxicity. Particularly in a situation such as GW2 where that playstyle is not mandated and those who do like it are not only not trying to force it on anyone else but are actively trying to avoid impacting those who dislike it by restricting themselves to playing with those who share their preference.

Windsagio.1340:

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

Hint: Dungeons are about team work not 5 solo players working together.
Boon fields work better when a team is working together and not doing XYZ independently.

A lot of “meta” is about teamwork and an expected base knowledge of class, profession , mechanics, builds and traits. Few people enjoyed the 4hr Arah pug runs when the game was released an no-one understood the mechanics and what was required. These bad experiences drew a lot of players away from Arah and still puts the fear into them thinking about it.

For the PHIW:
Is a fire field too much to ask to blast in? (For combo field might)
Is this too much of a demand from an Ele which has these on-tap across a variety of skills?
Is it fun spending 30mins on a boss and dying constantly in a team?
Is it too much to work together as a team?
— for some indivuals this is too much as they don’t believe in team composition, balance or understand how to work together to achieve a higher goal.

A lot of the LFGs are specifically formed for dungeons and the key is to join groups with your playstyle.
Why not agree to diasagree rather than attacking those who realise what a meta is and let them play it?

The meta has changed several times during this game and will evolve as time goes on (minor changes) and will not be changed by demanding across forum posts like this.
The top players will adapt quickly even if it changes and it will not affect the PHIW groups at all (such as yourself).

Windsagio.1340:

Had a bit about that above, it’s probably a “Type A personality” thing. The people who tend to be drawn to things like speedruns (and lots of competition and lots of status) tend to be annoying for others to deal with. It’s not specific to your community, of course, but the things that would make you ‘rigidly organized and status conscious’ would make you annoying (if you prefer, toxic) to more laid back people.

The props thing is a great exmaple of this is the insistence on props and respect above. To people not into that it reads as pretty ugly and egotistical.

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

I don’t think I’ve ever really seen the ‘bads’ thing in (this) game, but it’s certainly come up enough in these two threads. I don’t want it framed as a ’you’re just mad’ thing, it’s more a ‘I play this game to have fun and I’ve had enough of this in other games’ thing.

Honestly I bring it up mainly because it fits the pattern, it’s a good puzzle piece; it fits so well in the (to quote wiki)

ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status-conscious, sensitive, impatient, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, anxious, proactive, and concerned with time management.

mindset.

You’re being pretty judgmental over someone’s decision to play a game a certain way. If you dislike the mindset, don’t play with them. If their imitators join your laid-back group and kitten you off, then kick them.

It’s not a good idea to psychoanalyze someone based on posts on an internet game website. You don’t have the kind of observations to do so accurately. Also, you’re going to come across as insulting if not condescending when you try.

If you had any ammo to counteract the response I posted earlier about the real cultural toxicity around this issue, you’d have responded. Since you have not, it leads me to wonder if you’re just trolling.

Harper.4173:

“you get good at it after practice regardless of time or effort” – tell that to the countless failed pug runs that wipe in every dungeon or even the open world.

Tell that to the countless would-be zerkers constantly dying and proving that zerker is in fact not easy to wear and perform in.

Tell it to the majority of the player base that still consider content challenging. Or difficult. Or whatnot.

You don’t get good at the game unless you step outside your comfort zone. And a lot of the whining and QQ on these forums comes from people who won’t step out of that comfort zone. Be it because they’re stubborn or afraid. Or don’t like being told what to.

Common sense – as a construct is exactly what it sounds like. When you have no idea what to do the most sensible idea is to adopt the common practice. Because the time and experiences of others have in most cases determined a somewhat above-average performing strategy that you can adopt saving yourself the hassle of having to try out everything yourself.

The whole concept revolves around using other people’s failures and experiences to your benefit. Where others failed they were forced to adapt and improve. You can simply pick up the latest iteration and use it for yourself.

Yes there are those that find it difficult but that doesn’t make it so. Different people have differing learning curves as well. It’s not easy for beginners… but nor is it something that would require dedicated effort to just be good. Being optimal, however, is a different story.

To me, actually getting the idea yourself would make vastly more sense than copying others. Using failures of others to succeed would only be of benefit if there is some reward or saved effort. Not everyone values time and failed attempts grant a lot more experience.

Its somewhat similar to using guides I suppose. Figuring it out yourself can be rather fun. Too bad there isn’t much left to figure out.

IMHO, recent additions to the game have done much (compared to the past at least) to increase usefulness of other stats but much more is needed. Changes need to be implemented across the board. Also, active defenses need to be tied to your stat combo. As it is now, active damage mitigation has little-to-nothing to do with your build and it is good enough to decide the outcome of a fight. In its face, build diversity (apart from time differences) means nothing.

Why? You never answer this question.. Let’s imagine that you win and suddenly you need all sorts of gear sets to do various encounters. Maybe you have PVT set to fight some bosses – and you have a Nomad set for Teq.

So sure ‘gear diversity’ is a thing now in PVE. But so what – the game itself won’t be better – might take some more grinding to get a few different gear sets – but it won’t add anything to game play. And in fact without extensive rebalancing its likely to take a whole lot AWAY from gameplay.

You are on some meaningless quest to fix something that doesn’t need fixing. Do you troll Corvette sites and pledge to allow more ‘engine’ diversity in their cars? Why can’t we have a Corvette with a 3 cylinder turbo? LMAO.

On the Corvette forum they would tell you to buy a different car – here I honestly suggest you play a different game. They have done something neat in PvE in this game.

#1. You don’t need DPS – but you might want it. You can choose between how tough your guy is or how fast you can kill.
#2. You can vary your DPS via gear, build, and choice of melee or ranged.
#3. More DPS = more challenge. So glass cannons really go down easy – but the reward is more fun and more loot. More toughness/vitality etc give you more survivability (and the ability to ignore more mechanics) but if you choose this EZ mode you get loot slower.

Where is the problem here? That’s smart design from a company that’s let’s face it – isn’t really into dungeons in the first place.

That’s pretty much perfect right there. The major problem with PVE in this game is just what others have said – we need more of it. We also could likely use wider boon effect areas and bigger fields..so you wouldn’t have to stack so much for optimal play.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

Had a bit about that above, it’s probably a “Type A personality” thing. The people who tend to be drawn to things like speedruns (and lots of competition and lots of status) tend to be annoying for others to deal with. It’s not specific to your community, of course, but the things that would make you ‘rigidly organized and status conscious’ would make you annoying (if you prefer, toxic) to more laid back people.

The props thing is a great exmaple of this is the insistence on props and respect above. To people not into that it reads as pretty ugly and egotistical.

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

I don’t think I’ve ever really seen the ‘bads’ thing in (this) game, but it’s certainly come up enough in these two threads. I don’t want it framed as a ’you’re just mad’ thing, it’s more a ‘I play this game to have fun and I’ve had enough of this in other games’ thing.

Honestly I bring it up mainly because it fits the pattern, it’s a good puzzle piece; it fits so well in the (to quote wiki)

ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status-conscious, sensitive, impatient, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, anxious, proactive, and concerned with time management.

mindset.

You’re being pretty judgmental over someone’s decision to play a game a certain way. If you dislike the mindset, don’t play with them. If their imitators join your laid-back group and kitten you off, then kick them.

It’s not a good idea to psychoanalyze someone based on posts on an internet game website. You don’t have the kind of observations to do so accurately. Also, you’re going to come across as insulting if not condescending when you try.

If you had any ammo to counteract the response I posted earlier about the real cultural toxicity around this issue, you’d have responded. Since you have not, it leads me to wonder if you’re just trolling.

I’ll go back and look for your post again, and see if there’s something i missed, we’ll see.

About coming off judgemental, I’d probably have to cop to that. It’s not a type I’m happy having to deal with. The fact that we presume to let that mindset drive our gameplay is boggling and somewhat depressing to me.

I skimmed back a few pages and missed the post you’re referring to indigo, sorry.

Still, there have been a number of posts along the lines of ‘no, you guys are the real toxic ones, not us’, and It’s hard to take the line of logic used in a peewee herman movie seriously.

That being said, I’ve agreed a few times that the people lying and joining groups improperly are part of the problem, it certainly doesn’t help things. Nevertheless, ‘ambitious, status conscious, and impatient’ is not something I want to deal with, and I’m going to stick with the idea that it’s a fairly valid description.

Outside of this specific discussion, we’re pretty good at avoiding conflict, and the conflict is apt to the discussion.