Guild Wars 2

Don’t you think that being ambitious is a good thing – wanting to refine something more and more until it becomes perfect? (unless there is a translation I am not aware of)
Would you not feel proud after achieving something great? Would you not feel ‘status conscious’ when you have proven multiple times that you definitly are good at something? And now people are saying wrong things just about the stuff you know a ton about?
I agree that often being impatient is not a good thing but it sometimes pushes progress.

My point is, what is wrong about wanting to do something better than before – why can’t I expect people to contribute to the success of the whole party? Or at least: not intentionally do something worse than it was done before?

Quite surprised this thread is just 12 days old, really.

Cheezy.2039:

Don’t you think that being ambitious is a good thing – wanting to refine something more and more until it becomes perfect? (unless there is a translation I am not aware of)
Would you not feel proud after achieving something great? Would you not feel ‘status conscious’ when you have proven multiple times that you definitly are good at something? And now people are saying wrong things just about the stuff you know a ton about?
I agree that often being impatient is not a good thing but it sometimes pushes progress.

My point is, what is wrong about wanting to do something better than before – why can’t I expect people to contribute to the success of the whole party? Or at least: not intentionally do something worse than it was done before?

Any good quality people can have can be bad if it’s to an extreme.

Ambition to be the best could be taken to the extreme that they’ll do anything to become the best. Even at the expense of someone else.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to do something better than before or to expect players to contribute to the success of the whole party.

It’s just when two sets of people who define success differently try to force the other party to accept their definition and play accordingly when it becomes a problem.

The PHIW’s define it as simply beating the boss. Even if it takes 20 minutes to do an entire dungeon.

The Meta’s define it as doing it as beating the boss quickly and efficiently. For the current dungeons, 20 minutes constitutes a failure.

Kaiser.8504:

Quite surprised this thread is just 12 days old, really.

Pages fill quickly if people repeat the same arguments over and over again

Windsagio.1340:

I skimmed back a few pages and missed the post you’re referring to indigo, sorry.

Still, there have been a number of posts along the lines of ‘no, you guys are the real toxic ones, not us’, and It’s hard to take the line of logic used in a peewee herman movie seriously.

That being said, I’ve agreed a few times that the people lying and joining groups improperly are part of the problem, it certainly doesn’t help things. Nevertheless, ‘ambitious, status conscious, and impatient’ is not something I want to deal with, and I’m going to stick with the idea that it’s a fairly valid description.

Outside of this specific discussion, we’re pretty good at avoiding conflict, and the conflict is apt to the discussion.

I would argue that “efficiency” people should only join efficiency groups and the “anything goes” people should only join anything goes groups. If that were to happen, everyone would have what they wanted with regard to the gear/stat aspect of builds — which was the topic of the thread.

The human factor that works against this is solely whatever reasons people have for joining the “other” groups. The people who start groups with requirements — whether that’s glass only or anything goes — are doing nothing wrong except in the minds of people who believe they’re entitled to play in those groups even if they don’t fit in with what’s being asked for. I don’t care what rationalization or justification those people are using, they are the problem — not part of the problem.

I’d also like to see “bads” and “elitist jerk” dropped from the discussion. While I don’t particularly care for political correctness, I also know that such terms are counter-productive. At the end of the day, though, people will continue to feel entitled, people will continue to argue, and people will continue to make the mistake of thinking that a human nature problem can be solved by a game mechanics change.

At least I can argue the game mechanics issues. There’s not a kitten thing I can do about people feeling they’re entitled to play with people who don’t want to play with them way except point out how juvenile the attitude is and hope a few of them get it.

Windsagio.1340:

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

We don’t make demands if you don’t join our groups.

We are also not responsible if you choose not to join or make your own community. It honestly feels like you see some of us as “tryhards” at this point.

So again.

• You can become a member of “our group” by equipping the “correct”/“meta”/“optimal” gear, traits, and utilities (which can vary by dungeon and specific encounter of course).
• You will not generally see anything beyond gear filters (i.e., skill filters) unless you want to join a speed/record run guild
• You can make or join your own group with zero or custom requirements
• You can make or join your own community with likeminded people

I don’t know how else to say it. It feels like I’m hearing “I just want to be lazy and you guys are making me feel bad by working hard”.

Cheezy.2039:

Don’t you think that being ambitious is a good thing – wanting to refine something more and more until it becomes perfect? (unless there is a translation I am not aware of)
Would you not feel proud after achieving something great? Would you not feel ‘status conscious’ when you have proven multiple times that you definitly are good at something? And now people are saying wrong things just about the stuff you know a ton about?
I agree that often being impatient is not a good thing but it sometimes pushes progress.

My point is, what is wrong about wanting to do something better than before – why can’t I expect people to contribute to the success of the whole party? Or at least: not intentionally do something worse than it was done before?

Everything within moderation, and everything has positive and negative aspects :p

Ambition and organization are positive, impatience and status-consciousness are less so :p

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

We don’t make demands if you don’t join our groups.

We are also not responsible if you choose not to join or make your own community. It honestly feels like you see some of us as “tryhards” at this point.

So again.

• You can become a member of “our group” by equipping the “correct”/“meta”/“optimal” gear, traits, and utilities (which can vary by dungeon and specific encounter of course).
• You will not generally see anything beyond gear filters (i.e., skill filters) unless you want to join a speed/record run guild
• You can make or join your own group with zero or custom requirements
• You can make or join your own community with likeminded people

I don’t know how else to say it. It feels like I’m hearing “I just want to be lazy and you guys are making me feel bad by working hard”.

(bold mine)

You just had to slip that n there, didn’t you :p

If you seriously think gear filters are skill filters, we’re back at page 1 again.

More generally, I wouldn’t treat this as much more than a discussion. It doesn’t mean I"m making kitten up to mess with people, but I’m guessing most of us are able to go our own ways and do our own stuff in game, this is just a (if you’ll excuse the pun) meta discussion.

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

We don’t make demands if you don’t join our groups.

We are also not responsible if you choose not to join or make your own community. It honestly feels like you see some of us as “tryhards” at this point.

So again.

• You can become a member of “our group” by equipping the “correct”/“meta”/“optimal” gear, traits, and utilities (which can vary by dungeon and specific encounter of course).
• You will not generally see anything beyond gear filters (i.e., skill filters) unless you want to join a speed/record run guild
• You can make or join your own group with zero or custom requirements
• You can make or join your own community with likeminded people

I don’t know how else to say it. It feels like I’m hearing “I just want to be lazy and you guys are making me feel bad by working hard”.

(bold mine)

You just had to slip that n there, didn’t you :p

If you seriously think gear filters are skill filters, we’re back at page 1 again.

More generally, I wouldn’t treat this as much more than a discussion. It doesn’t mean I"m making kitten up to mess with people, but I’m guessing most of us are able to go our own ways and do our own stuff in game, this is just a (if you’ll excuse the pun) meta discussion.

He said anything beyond gear filters.

And gave an example of a filter that would be beyond gear filters.

I don’t think he meant that gear choice is a definite sign that someone is a skilled player.

Seera.5916:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

We don’t make demands if you don’t join our groups.

We are also not responsible if you choose not to join or make your own community. It honestly feels like you see some of us as “tryhards” at this point.

So again.

• You can become a member of “our group” by equipping the “correct”/“meta”/“optimal” gear, traits, and utilities (which can vary by dungeon and specific encounter of course).
• You will not generally see anything beyond gear filters (i.e., skill filters) unless you want to join a speed/record run guild
• You can make or join your own group with zero or custom requirements
• You can make or join your own community with likeminded people

I don’t know how else to say it. It feels like I’m hearing “I just want to be lazy and you guys are making me feel bad by working hard”.

(bold mine)

You just had to slip that n there, didn’t you :p

If you seriously think gear filters are skill filters, we’re back at page 1 again.

More generally, I wouldn’t treat this as much more than a discussion. It doesn’t mean I"m making kitten up to mess with people, but I’m guessing most of us are able to go our own ways and do our own stuff in game, this is just a (if you’ll excuse the pun) meta discussion.

He said anything beyond gear filters.

And gave an example of a filter that would be beyond gear filters.

I don’t think he meant that gear choice is a definite sign that someone is a skilled player.

Hmm, you’re probably right.

Windsagio.1340:

Seera.5916:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

We don’t make demands if you don’t join our groups.

We are also not responsible if you choose not to join or make your own community. It honestly feels like you see some of us as “tryhards” at this point.

So again.

• You can become a member of “our group” by equipping the “correct”/“meta”/“optimal” gear, traits, and utilities (which can vary by dungeon and specific encounter of course).
• You will not generally see anything beyond gear filters (i.e., skill filters) unless you want to join a speed/record run guild
• You can make or join your own group with zero or custom requirements
• You can make or join your own community with likeminded people

I don’t know how else to say it. It feels like I’m hearing “I just want to be lazy and you guys are making me feel bad by working hard”.

(bold mine)

You just had to slip that n there, didn’t you :p

If you seriously think gear filters are skill filters, we’re back at page 1 again.

More generally, I wouldn’t treat this as much more than a discussion. It doesn’t mean I"m making kitten up to mess with people, but I’m guessing most of us are able to go our own ways and do our own stuff in game, this is just a (if you’ll excuse the pun) meta discussion.

He said anything beyond gear filters.

And gave an example of a filter that would be beyond gear filters.

I don’t think he meant that gear choice is a definite sign that someone is a skilled player.

Hmm, you’re probably right.

Top speedrun guilds have trials and you have to pass a certain criteria… a skill filter basically. That’s what he was saying. Something along the lines of going through fractals quickly, meleeing everything and not dying, and soloing Lupi off wall is what I’ve heard.

Ashen.2907:

How useful something turns out to be is not particularly relevant to the fact that it is more effective to build upon existing work than it is to reinvent the wheel every time. There is no comment about expecting props there, just a statement about the effectiveness of building on existing work rather than starting from scratch.

Yea, and this game is a living proof of that.

Edit: on the topic of active defense – YES, it IS a problem when aegis is equally good on a pure dps class as it is on support-oriented class. It IS a problem when conds hit about as hard when used in a dps-specced build as they do in a condi-specced one (which is rather subpar in pve to start with), it IS a problem when evade/block skills are equally effective regardless of one’s comp.
For one, it makes support builds redundant. It also reduces the need for actual team play (with all do respect, blasting one’s fields to stack up might is not team play), when each man can be his own support, heal, and cc even in pure dps specs.
Sure, some might argue in favour of that, but the only reason why zerk-only groups work almost everywhere (once you got the AI mechanics down, at least) is because the pve is so ill-designed that it doesn’t promote/require anything beyond that.

But man, the pvesportz is high in this thread. Really high. srs bsns, oi

DaveGan.8065:

Then why do you say people who want to speed run are toxic to people who don’t want to speed run?

This societal/peer pressure thing you bring up is a joke. Pure and simple, it’s social anxiety and lack of initiative and community. Those things are up to the people who want to play how they want “enjoy the game to the fullest”.

We will not build your community for you, as we’ve spent enough time and effort building our own. Please don’t blame our “community” for your unwillingness to turn your own “group” into a “community”.

Those who call you guys “bad”—they do not speak for most of us, and generally most of us simply acknowledge that you are “different”. As I said before, the only times most of us use the word “bad” is when one of you tries to sneak into our groups, or when one of you tries to pass off your PHIW build in chat as optimal or close enough to optimal.

Unless you wish your own “group” and “playstyle” to be judged by the most toxic in your group, I kindly request you please stop judging ours by our worst role models as well.

I don’t think insinuating to people that you don’t know that they have “social anxiety problems” will help your case, or even gain you more “meta-tolerance”. In fact, it does more harm than good to your cause, making you seem way more negative than your argument tries to be.

This is all pointless, however, as this thread should end-the “speed run meta” itself will never end, as some people enjoy to play that way (good and bad, nice and jerks). What people really hate-at least what I do hate-is not the meta, but bullies, jerks, and condescension-whether it comes from “pros” or “casuals.” Play with people who share your similar goals or views about the game-which I think most of us can agree with at least.

Please don’t reply, as I find these “meta-debates” rather tiresome and unproductive.

(The one problem with the “meta” that I would see is that if you ARE a speed runner, your playing choices are naturally limited to what’s more efficient, but then again, for most meta players, this is, I think, a minor annoyance, as they are used to such limits. At least there were brave enough players to try new things and discover effective ways to use previously “sub-optimal” Professions and/or builds/weapon choices, but some limits still remain, for better or worse. As for the meta “toxicity problem”, it’s just a matter of being nicer to each other, but I don’t have much hope for humanity at this point-this thread itself being a fair indicator of my misgivings… though to be fair, this game seems to have way less jerks than many other games.)

Star Ace.5207:

I don’t think insinuating to people that you don’t know that they have “social anxiety problems” will help your case, or even gain you more “meta-tolerance”. In fact, it does more harm than good to your cause, making you seem way more negative than your argument tries to be.

You (and they) can choose to be offended all you/they want. In general I’m tired of hearing anti-meta posts from people who choose not to make their own groups, instead trying to focus on the rest of us being too elitist and not inclusive enough.

Although the recent posters here have expressed a general tolerance for difference/separation, there have been enough entitled headaches in this thread that have not and will not. Regardless of whether “social anxiety” is the best term to use to describe the problem, my emphasis was that the problem lied with them, not us.

Most of them just simply choose not to help themselves.

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Several nights a week I experience these nice smooth runs you’re talking about. The only things I can say in their favor are that 1) They’re fast, 2) They increase my gold count, and 3) They give me more time with friends. Now some may say, “Isn’t that enough?” Perhaps it should be. But it is not enough for me. There is no enjoyment out of the content whatsoever. The enemy AI is severely lacking, large portions are allowed to be completely skipped, and combat mechanics have been “streamlined” to such a degree that “combat” has long past become a joke.

When voicing my opinion during these dungeon runs, to my friends, most grudgingly agree with me. The sad truth, as I see it, is we’ve become addicted to speed clears and all that comes with it. The faster people get, the more they feel they can never go back — even if the difference is only one minute from the previous run. I do not hold to this. I would rather have new content, strong enemy AI, and far longer dungeon runs. I want to enjoy what I’m doing, when I’m doing it.

Many speed clearers would even agree to that last… but they would inevitably state that the rewards gained would have to be dramatically increased in order to make it worth it. Perhaps this is true. * shrugs * Again I’m not so certain. The enjoyment gained from a spectacular dungeon would be enough for ME.

I’m pretty sure I’m in a minority with this viewpoint. Which is totally fine… But please don’t think that everyone would enjoy dungeons the way they are just because you do.

With that said — Happy dungeon raiding.

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

The whole concept revolves around using other people’s failures and experiences to your benefit. Where others failed they were forced to adapt and improve. You can simply pick up the latest iteration and use it for yourself.

As a continuation of this thought:

This is not unique to games. All of human advancement is based on the idea of building on the work of those who have preceded you rather than having to start from scratch, reinventing the wheel as it were, for every possible endeavor.

Except the specifics of tuning speedruns aren’t that useful or meaningful to people that don’t care about speed runs

It’s like expecting props for advancements in cup stacking outside of the competitive cup stacking circuit(1).

(1)except cup stacking is harder to do and to figure out than GW2 stacking. Most of these advancements aren’t exactly rocket science, and it’s been a longterm process of development and refinement.

But I never said they have anything to do with people that don’t care about speed runs. Still their contribution is real since at least some players ( those who do speed runs) have used their meta strategy to great effect.

A player who has just played the game has had less meaningful impact on the game since he hasn’t improved or helped anybody except the few people he plays with.

That’s why they deserve props – because they gave those of us who care about speed the means through which to get our rewards faster.
Other players just play and that’s it. Of course there’s a difference.

DaveGan.8065:

Then why do you say people who want to speed run are toxic to people who don’t want to speed run?

This societal/peer pressure thing you bring up is a joke. Pure and simple, it’s social anxiety and lack of initiative and community. Those things are up to the people who want to play how they want “enjoy the game to the fullest”.

We will not build your community for you, as we’ve spent enough time and effort building our own. Please don’t blame our “community” for your unwillingness to turn your own “group” into a “community”.

Those who call you guys “bad”—they do not speak for most of us, and generally most of us simply acknowledge that you are “different”. As I said before, the only times most of us use the word “bad” is when one of you tries to sneak into our groups, or when one of you tries to pass off your PHIW build in chat as optimal or close enough to optimal.

Unless you wish your own “group” and “playstyle” to be judged by the most toxic in your group, I kindly request you please stop judging ours by our worst role models as well.

And also if it’s not too much trouble stay away from a group ( speed runners and reward-oriented people) that does not want to play with you.

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Then why do you say people who want to speed run are toxic to people who don’t want to speed run?

This societal/peer pressure thing you bring up is a joke. Pure and simple, it’s social anxiety and lack of initiative and community. Those things are up to the people who want to play how they want “enjoy the game to the fullest”.

We will not build your community for you, as we’ve spent enough time and effort building our own. Please don’t blame our “community” for your unwillingness to turn your own “group” into a “community”.

Those who call you guys “bad”—they do not speak for most of us, and generally most of us simply acknowledge that you are “different”. As I said before, the only times most of us use the word “bad” is when one of you tries to sneak into our groups, or when one of you tries to pass off your PHIW build in chat as optimal or close enough to optimal.

Unless you wish your own “group” and “playstyle” to be judged by the most toxic in your group, I kindly request you please stop judging ours by our worst role models as well.

Had a bit about that above, it’s probably a “Type A personality” thing. The people who tend to be drawn to things like speedruns (and lots of competition and lots of status) tend to be annoying for others to deal with. It’s not specific to your community, of course, but the things that would make you ‘rigidly organized and status conscious’ would make you annoying (if you prefer, toxic) to more laid back people.

The props thing is a great exmaple of this is the insistence on props and respect above. To people not into that it reads as pretty ugly and egotistical.

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

I don’t think I’ve ever really seen the ‘bads’ thing in (this) game, but it’s certainly come up enough in these two threads. I don’t want it framed as a ’you’re just mad’ thing, it’s more a ‘I play this game to have fun and I’ve had enough of this in other games’ thing.

Honestly I bring it up mainly because it fits the pattern, it’s a good puzzle piece; it fits so well in the (to quote wiki)

ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status-conscious, sensitive, impatient, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, anxious, proactive, and concerned with time management.

mindset.

The props in this thread were there for the following reason:

To explain to you and people like Leo that the people who made the meta are still around and that speculation on what their original reasons for creating the meta is useless since you can just ask them.

Those of us who gave them props did so because their efforts mattered for us – and we recognize and value their work and effort.

If you felt offended that’s your problem.

If the Type A personality people are so bad – why do the super awesome “laid back casual fun loving folks” keep trying to get in our runs and get upset when we don’t take them or kick them?

Windsagio.1340:

Had a bit about that above, it’s probably a “Type A personality” thing. The people who tend to be drawn to things like speedruns (and lots of competition and lots of status) tend to be annoying for others to deal with. It’s not specific to your community, of course, but the things that would make you ‘rigidly organized and status conscious’ would make you annoying (if you prefer, toxic) to more laid back people.

This broad generalisation is both incredibly inaccurate and insulting. You are essentially accusing an entire community of being the draw of toxic personalities. This is so unbelieveable and false, its offensive. There are toxic personalities on both sides. Ive personally witnessed more on the other side. Because their toxicity would be aimed at me. And the same would be true in the opposite position. And following the meta has nothing to do with being laid back or not. My core group has a very laid back approach. But we all run optimal builds and compositions.

I’m fairly sure the meta would get more interesting IF the monsters you face were to target (agro) the guy doing the most damage as opposed to the guy wearing the toughness gear. I’m sure if I was getting targeted by five players and one of them was hitting like a tank on steroids I would not be targeting the guardian. Even if we don’t have a trinity here, monsters seems to be quite stupid in this genre.

Not only that, monsters just need to be smarter. If faced with 5 players with melee weapons always stacking, Monster will kite while continuously firing AE attacks at the players with a ranged weapon.

And bam, no more melee group stack.

Carighan.6758:

Not only that, monsters just need to be smarter. If faced with 5 players with melee weapons always stacking, Monster will kite while continuously firing AE attacks at the players with a ranged weapon.

And bam, no more melee group stack.

Guess you never heard of Ghost Pepper Poppers. They are the true easy mode in this game, at least in nighttime instances.

Tommyknocker.6089:

I’m fairly sure the meta would get more interesting IF the monsters you face were to target (agro) the guy doing the most damage as opposed to the guy wearing the toughness gear. I’m sure if I was getting targeted by five players and one of them was hitting like a tank on steroids I would not be targeting the guardian. Even if we don’t have a trinity here, monsters seems to be quite stupid in this genre.

We’re pretty sure they already do.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

Ever since I upgraded my zerk ranger to ascended armor, I’m the target 99.99% of the time.

Some enemies seem to be different than others. For example champ abominations will pretty much not switch targets even if you get downed and no matter how far you run.

Tommyknocker.6089:

I’m fairly sure the meta would get more interesting IF the monsters you face were to target (agro) the guy doing the most damage as opposed to the guy wearing the toughness gear. I’m sure if I was getting targeted by five players and one of them was hitting like a tank on steroids I would not be targeting the guardian. Even if we don’t have a trinity here, monsters seems to be quite stupid in this genre.

How is this point relevant to meta groups where everyone is wearing glass?

Carighan.6758:

Not only that, monsters just need to be smarter. If faced with 5 players with melee weapons always stacking, Monster will kite while continuously firing AE attacks at the players with a ranged weapon.

And bam, no more melee group stack.

MMO AI will always be seen as stupid because their behavior can be learned and thus predicted. Also, because mobs do not adapt. There is already plenty of AoE by mobs in dungeons, particularly bosses. Some do not use it, but a lot do. All your suggestion would do is put in a Chill requirement that already seems to be in use anyway, at least in some cases. Players would also have to cope with AoE, which they already do anyway.

Players suggesting particular mob tactics to target elements of play they don’t like should consider what would happen if their suggestion actually worked. What is the opposite of melee stacking? Ranged avoid-other-players? Why is that better?

We should speed run this thread so we can be done faster… half you people are talking to brick walls.

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Funny thing on this;

Kind of on a whim, last night I joined a level 1 fractal that advertised for novices. I wanted to help (if I could without being overwhelming) and I wanted to try something different off, and used my sinister Necro (Usually for fractals it’s guardian or ele). 32-3 of the players had never done fractals before.

We got;
Uncategorized,
Cliffside,
Volcanic,
Mai trin.

Given the scenario and our weird makeup, the run went shockingly smoothly.

Even on Mai, where at least 1 person had never done the fight before, we had nobody die in the main phase and a total of 2 people go down in the cannon-fire.

The main problem in the entire run was that our guardian had this difficulty learning that he should put down the hammer before the stacks get to 40 (which was more funny than sad).

Maybe they were secretly super skilled players who had just avoided fractals, and maybe fractal 1 is the easiest content in the game when you know the rules, but given that a random run going decidedly non-meta with random pickup players went totally smoothely with no wipes, I dunno it says something.

Probably about specifying others playstyle isn’t required for a smooth run :p

Carighan.6758:

Not only that, monsters just need to be smarter. If faced with 5 players with melee weapons always stacking, Monster will kite while continuously firing AE attacks at the players with a ranged weapon.

And bam, no more melee group stack.

And you think people would actually like this?

Protip : people are complaining that mobs in this game are huge damage sponges anyway. The last thing we need is for them to also run away and kite us.

Why draw out encounters that the majority has already done and overdone already? To troll the players?

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Funny thing on this;

Kind of on a whim, last night I joined a level 1 fractal that advertised for novices. I wanted to help (if I could without being overwhelming) and I wanted to try something different off, and used my sinister Necro (Usually for fractals it’s guardian or ele). 32-3 of the players had never done fractals before.

We got;
Uncategorized,
Cliffside,
Volcanic,
Mai trin.

Given the scenario and our weird makeup, the run went shockingly smoothly.

Even on Mai, where at least 1 person had never done the fight before, we had nobody die in the main phase and a total of 2 people go down in the cannon-fire.

The main problem in the entire run was that our guardian had this difficulty learning that he should put down the hammer before the stacks get to 40 (which was more funny than sad).

Maybe they were secretly super skilled players who had just avoided fractals, and maybe fractal 1 is the easiest content in the game when you know the rules, but given that a random run going decidedly non-meta with random pickup players went totally smoothely with no wipes, I dunno it says something.

Probably about specifying others playstyle isn’t required for a smooth run :p

The fact that your smooth, anecdotal run seems to surprise and amaze you may ‘say something’ as well. Guess how often meta dungeon runners are surprised that they had a smooth run? Uhm…never…because that’s the point of the dungeon meta. Mmkay thanx.

In a perfect word they’d be as smart and act in a similar way to pvp opponents (and balanced appropriately). We’re not in a perfect world though, so we’re pretty limited in what our AI’s can do.

That would be a meta shift, but it would be an interesting one.

If only it were possible :p

Tman.6349:

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Funny thing on this;

Kind of on a whim, last night I joined a level 1 fractal that advertised for novices. I wanted to help (if I could without being overwhelming) and I wanted to try something different off, and used my sinister Necro (Usually for fractals it’s guardian or ele). 32-3 of the players had never done fractals before.

We got;
Uncategorized,
Cliffside,
Volcanic,
Mai trin.

Given the scenario and our weird makeup, the run went shockingly smoothly.

Even on Mai, where at least 1 person had never done the fight before, we had nobody die in the main phase and a total of 2 people go down in the cannon-fire.

The main problem in the entire run was that our guardian had this difficulty learning that he should put down the hammer before the stacks get to 40 (which was more funny than sad).

Maybe they were secretly super skilled players who had just avoided fractals, and maybe fractal 1 is the easiest content in the game when you know the rules, but given that a random run going decidedly non-meta with random pickup players went totally smoothely with no wipes, I dunno it says something.

Probably about specifying others playstyle isn’t required for a smooth run :p

The fact that your smooth, anecdotal run seems to surprise and amaze you may ‘say something’ as well. Guess how often meta dungeon runners are surprised that they had a smooth run? Uhm…never…because that’s the point of the dungeon meta. Mmkay thanx.

If I wanted to go tit-for-tat with you, I’d compare it to the other anecdotal run where the dude solo’d the first three, and then grabbed 4 pugs who immediately wiped before the first cannon salvo.

That really wasn’t my intent though, I made a point of not just ordering people around, and the fact that people who didn’t know the encounter at all were able to adapt and learn quickly and that we had absolutely no difficulties without regard to meta pretty specifically puts the lie to your statement.

We did what on paper was a potentially disasterous run, and it was a joy.

Windsagio.1340:

In a perfect word they’d be as smart and act in a similar way to pvp opponents (and balanced appropriately). We’re not in a perfect world though, so we’re pretty limited in what our AI’s can do.

That would be a meta shift, but it would be an interesting one.

If only it were possible :p

I guess its time to explain how it would work…

1. Anet implements a radically new, realistic AI. Game gets 5x harder. Rewards are increased to compensate.
2. Elite dungeon guilds take a month or two to figure out optimal strategies. Begin speed running dungeons with relative ease again, and reap the increased rewards.
3. Pugs are unable to complete ACp1 in under an hour.
4. Rivers of tears flow.

Harper.4173:

Carighan.6758:

Not only that, monsters just need to be smarter. If faced with 5 players with melee weapons always stacking, Monster will kite while continuously firing AE attacks at the players with a ranged weapon.

And bam, no more melee group stack.

And you think people would actually like this?

I would like it, actually.

Windsagio.1340:

Tman.6349:

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Funny thing on this;

Kind of on a whim, last night I joined a level 1 fractal that advertised for novices. I wanted to help (if I could without being overwhelming) and I wanted to try something different off, and used my sinister Necro (Usually for fractals it’s guardian or ele). 32-3 of the players had never done fractals before.

We got;
Uncategorized,
Cliffside,
Volcanic,
Mai trin.

Given the scenario and our weird makeup, the run went shockingly smoothly.

Even on Mai, where at least 1 person had never done the fight before, we had nobody die in the main phase and a total of 2 people go down in the cannon-fire.

The main problem in the entire run was that our guardian had this difficulty learning that he should put down the hammer before the stacks get to 40 (which was more funny than sad).

Maybe they were secretly super skilled players who had just avoided fractals, and maybe fractal 1 is the easiest content in the game when you know the rules, but given that a random run going decidedly non-meta with random pickup players went totally smoothely with no wipes, I dunno it says something.

Probably about specifying others playstyle isn’t required for a smooth run :p

The fact that your smooth, anecdotal run seems to surprise and amaze you may ‘say something’ as well. Guess how often meta dungeon runners are surprised that they had a smooth run? Uhm…never…because that’s the point of the dungeon meta. Mmkay thanx.

If I wanted to go tit-for-tat with you, I’d compare it to the other anecdotal run where the dude solo’d the first three, and then grabbed 4 pugs who immediately wiped before the first cannon salvo.

That really wasn’t my intent though, I made a point of not just ordering people around, and the fact that people who didn’t know the encounter at all were able to adapt and learn quickly and that we had absolutely no difficulties without regard to meta pretty specifically puts the lie to your statement.

We did what on paper was a potentially disasterous run, and it was a joy.

Very glad you had a fun and joyous run with players who seemed to share your preferred approach to having a good time playing the game. Now lets see how many people post in this thread, or create threads like it, saying that you shouldnt be allowed to enjoy the game playing with people who enjoy the same aspects as yourself.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tommyknocker.6089:

I’m fairly sure the meta would get more interesting IF the monsters you face were to target (agro) the guy doing the most damage as opposed to the guy wearing the toughness gear. I’m sure if I was getting targeted by five players and one of them was hitting like a tank on steroids I would not be targeting the guardian. Even if we don’t have a trinity here, monsters seems to be quite stupid in this genre.

How is this point relevant to meta groups where everyone is wearing glass?

snip

It would not help nor hinder them, however those of us that like to wear more toughness gear would feel safer; or at very least be the last targeted. Although as has been pointed out the wiki does say that those that do more damage are targeted first (so it says) so my point is mute.

That is not to say I would not like to see more I in the AI used in these games.

Ashen.2907:

Windsagio.1340:

Tman.6349:

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Funny thing on this;

Kind of on a whim, last night I joined a level 1 fractal that advertised for novices. I wanted to help (if I could without being overwhelming) and I wanted to try something different off, and used my sinister Necro (Usually for fractals it’s guardian or ele). 32-3 of the players had never done fractals before.

We got;
Uncategorized,
Cliffside,
Volcanic,
Mai trin.

Given the scenario and our weird makeup, the run went shockingly smoothly.

Even on Mai, where at least 1 person had never done the fight before, we had nobody die in the main phase and a total of 2 people go down in the cannon-fire.

The main problem in the entire run was that our guardian had this difficulty learning that he should put down the hammer before the stacks get to 40 (which was more funny than sad).

Maybe they were secretly super skilled players who had just avoided fractals, and maybe fractal 1 is the easiest content in the game when you know the rules, but given that a random run going decidedly non-meta with random pickup players went totally smoothely with no wipes, I dunno it says something.

Probably about specifying others playstyle isn’t required for a smooth run :p

The fact that your smooth, anecdotal run seems to surprise and amaze you may ‘say something’ as well. Guess how often meta dungeon runners are surprised that they had a smooth run? Uhm…never…because that’s the point of the dungeon meta. Mmkay thanx.

If I wanted to go tit-for-tat with you, I’d compare it to the other anecdotal run where the dude solo’d the first three, and then grabbed 4 pugs who immediately wiped before the first cannon salvo.

That really wasn’t my intent though, I made a point of not just ordering people around, and the fact that people who didn’t know the encounter at all were able to adapt and learn quickly and that we had absolutely no difficulties without regard to meta pretty specifically puts the lie to your statement.

We did what on paper was a potentially disasterous run, and it was a joy.

Very glad you had a fun and joyous run with players who seemed to share your preferred approach to having a good time playing the game. Now lets see how many people post in this thread, or create threads like it, saying that you shouldnt be allowed to enjoy the game playing with people who enjoy the same aspects as yourself.

There’s irony in this because the most strident anti-‘meta’ people are the ones who feel they’re being forced as well, and to some degree it can get like that.

It used to be really bad, but the situation is solving itself, and fewer and fewer people are demanding meta. There was a time when the majority of the groups were ‘ZERK HEAVY’ or worse “NO RANGER NO NECRO” (worse because singling out is always ugly).

~~~

You could do a whole thing about how zerk groups aren’t even the majority anymore, but people are still mad from before, it would be an interesting subtopic.

Azhure.1857:

Harper.4173:

Carighan.6758:

Not only that, monsters just need to be smarter. If faced with 5 players with melee weapons always stacking, Monster will kite while continuously firing AE attacks at the players with a ranged weapon.

And bam, no more melee group stack.

And you think people would actually like this?

I would like it, actually.

And I’m sure the other 5-10 guys I’ve seen posting the same kind of idea on the forum would too. What about everybody else?

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

In a perfect word they’d be as smart and act in a similar way to pvp opponents (and balanced appropriately). We’re not in a perfect world though, so we’re pretty limited in what our AI’s can do.

That would be a meta shift, but it would be an interesting one.

If only it were possible :p

I guess its time to explain how it would work…

1. Anet implements a radically new, realistic AI. Game gets 5x harder. Rewards are increased to compensate.
2. Elite dungeon guilds take a month or two to figure out optimal strategies. Begin speed running dungeons with relative ease again, and reap the increased rewards.
3. Pugs are unable to complete ACp1 in under an hour.
4. Rivers of tears flow.

Do you realize how insanely difficult it would be to do a truly reactive AI that matches the responsiveness of pvp players?

1) Is probably a compsci Ph.D at the very least.
2) If it were truly up to human reactions it would take more than a month. A new meta would emerge, I’d agree. It wouldnt’ be a speedrun meta though it would be a survival meta, similar to our current pvp with a greater emphasis on support (a major problem with the idea, even if it were possible, is that we’d go back to more groups demanding Guardians)
3) It depends on the target length. For it to work at all, enemies would not be able to have the kind of health numbers we’re used to.
4) No doubt. I agree on this, it would be a lot harder to loot-train them.

Glad you agree with me that your idea wouldn’t work.

What really needs to stop is putting the word meta in quotes. Metagaming is a concept that has literally been a part of role playing games for decades. You can just call it the meta. It’s a thing.

hybrid.5027:

Glad you agree with me that your idea wouldn’t work.

I said in my post it wouldn’t work;

If only it were possible :p

Once it is possible it will revolutionize MMOs, but it’s many years out, if ever.

Fubsy.7865:

What really needs to stop is putting the word meta in quotes. Metagaming is a concept that has literally been a part of role playing games for decades. You can just call it the meta. It’s a thing.

This ‘meta’ isn’t a legit meta though, so I’m going to continue using my fingerquotes :p

Azhure.1857:

Harper.4173:

Carighan.6758:

Not only that, monsters just need to be smarter. If faced with 5 players with melee weapons always stacking, Monster will kite while continuously firing AE attacks at the players with a ranged weapon.

And bam, no more melee group stack.

And you think people would actually like this?

I would like it, actually.

So… field damage? You’re not a fan? Lava Font, Meteor Shower, Acid Bomb, Bombs in general, smite, Symbols, Barrage, Wells, etc… All doing partial damage at best if you try and melee? That sounds pretty sad to me.

Whats the problem of field damage? It just would require to use well timed interrupts, maybe blasting some water fields or using invul-skills, but i don’t see how it would stop a skilled party from meleeing.

Lendruil.9061:

Whats the problem of field damage? It just would require to use well timed interrupts, maybe blasting some water fields or using invul-skills, but i don’t see how it would stop a skilled party from meleeing.

If you scroll up (it got cut out of the quote, oops) it was in response to an idea that bosses would run away if people tried to melee them. That would cause field damage (things like Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Smite, etc) to become much less effective.

Not sure what you’re thinking we’re talking about, are you thinking about players being in damage fields?… that’s not what it was about.

And no, a boss walking wouldn’t stop meleeing, it’d just have us cripple/chilling and moving with it, and likely avoiding weaponry that is reliant on a static enemy (Ele Staff, Guard Scepter, Engi EG, Maybe even Ele Scepter w/dragons tooth and what not?)

Ah, nvm then, i didn’t read the whole thread.

Jerus.4350:

Lendruil.9061:

Whats the problem of field damage? It just would require to use well timed interrupts, maybe blasting some water fields or using invul-skills, but i don’t see how it would stop a skilled party from meleeing.

If you scroll up (it got cut out of the quote, oops) it was in response to an idea that bosses would run away if people tried to melee them. That would cause field damage (things like Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Smite, etc) to become much less effective.

Not sure what you’re thinking we’re talking about, are you thinking about players being in damage fields?… that’s not what it was about.

And no, a boss walking wouldn’t stop meleeing, it’d just have us cripple/chilling and moving with it, and likely avoiding weaponry that is reliant on a static enemy (Ele Staff, Guard Scepter, Engi EG, Maybe even Ele Scepter w/dragons tooth and what not?)

Worth repeating that in GW1 the enemies did run out of fields. We should get some GW1 purists in here about how that was better ><

Edit: last part is meant as a joke.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Lendruil.9061:

Whats the problem of field damage? It just would require to use well timed interrupts, maybe blasting some water fields or using invul-skills, but i don’t see how it would stop a skilled party from meleeing.

If you scroll up (it got cut out of the quote, oops) it was in response to an idea that bosses would run away if people tried to melee them. That would cause field damage (things like Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Smite, etc) to become much less effective.

Not sure what you’re thinking we’re talking about, are you thinking about players being in damage fields?… that’s not what it was about.

And no, a boss walking wouldn’t stop meleeing, it’d just have us cripple/chilling and moving with it, and likely avoiding weaponry that is reliant on a static enemy (Ele Staff, Guard Scepter, Engi EG, Maybe even Ele Scepter w/dragons tooth and what not?)

Worth repeating that in GW1 the enemies did run out of fields. We should get some GW1 purists in here about how that was better ><

Edit: last part is meant as a joke.

Some GW2 enemies run away too… and they’re more annoying than fun so… yeah…

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Lendruil.9061:

Whats the problem of field damage? It just would require to use well timed interrupts, maybe blasting some water fields or using invul-skills, but i don’t see how it would stop a skilled party from meleeing.

If you scroll up (it got cut out of the quote, oops) it was in response to an idea that bosses would run away if people tried to melee them. That would cause field damage (things like Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Smite, etc) to become much less effective.

Not sure what you’re thinking we’re talking about, are you thinking about players being in damage fields?… that’s not what it was about.

And no, a boss walking wouldn’t stop meleeing, it’d just have us cripple/chilling and moving with it, and likely avoiding weaponry that is reliant on a static enemy (Ele Staff, Guard Scepter, Engi EG, Maybe even Ele Scepter w/dragons tooth and what not?)

Worth repeating that in GW1 the enemies did run out of fields. We should get some GW1 purists in here about how that was better ><

Edit: last part is meant as a joke.

Some GW2 enemies run away too… and they’re more annoying than fun so… yeah…

Although anybody who’s ever done Balthezaar’s (sp) temple has screamed at NPC’s to do the same :p

Silliness aside, now is not the time to do that change. You don’t change the basic enemy behavior that dramatically this late in a game’s life.

If done from the start I think it would have been good, if I remember right they removed it due to performance issues.

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

In a perfect word they’d be as smart and act in a similar way to pvp opponents (and balanced appropriately). We’re not in a perfect world though, so we’re pretty limited in what our AI’s can do.

That would be a meta shift, but it would be an interesting one.

If only it were possible :p

I guess its time to explain how it would work…

1. Anet implements a radically new, realistic AI. Game gets 5x harder. Rewards are increased to compensate.
2. Elite dungeon guilds take a month or two to figure out optimal strategies. Begin speed running dungeons with relative ease again, and reap the increased rewards.
3. Pugs are unable to complete ACp1 in under an hour.
4. Rivers of tears flow.

Do you realize how insanely difficult it would be to do a truly reactive AI that matches the responsiveness of pvp players?

1) Is probably a compsci Ph.D at the very least.
2) If it were truly up to human reactions it would take more than a month. A new meta would emerge, I’d agree. It wouldnt’ be a speedrun meta though it would be a survival meta, similar to our current pvp with a greater emphasis on support (a major problem with the idea, even if it were possible, is that we’d go back to more groups demanding Guardians)
3) It depends on the target length. For it to work at all, enemies would not be able to have the kind of health numbers we’re used to.
4) No doubt. I agree on this, it would be a lot harder to loot-train them.

Survival meta?
Wow.

It would still be a speed meta – the fastest you can go. Even if it requires 5 x tanky chars. It’s still go as fast as you can to get the loot as effectively as you can so in that sense it is and always will be a speed meta as long as it’s the fastest viable way.

Fubsy.7865:

What really needs to stop is putting the word meta in quotes. Metagaming is a concept that has literally been a part of role playing games for decades. You can just call it the meta. It’s a thing.

It’s also super frowned-upon in real RPG games, even though it takes place there if GMs/DMs allow it. That said, this is an RPG game only by player choice (MMORPG is but a marketing moniker), and most players don’t care about roleplaying (the more ignorant ones finding it “weird”), so “meta is a thing” as you stated, but definitely not the “best way” to enjoy the game “as designed” for 100% of players regardless individual skill. “Meta” is entirely fine but not something all players enjoy.

(Meta in quotes just means that it’s a “partial meta” or not applicable to large groups of people. That’s why I think some have said it’s a made-up term-I don’t care enough to argue about this, as it has zero importance on the big picture of things, and I gain zero satisfaction of winning online arguments for their own sake.)