Guild Wars 2

DaveGan.8065:

Raine.1394:

So the absence of any statements on functions indicates the absence of knowledge of functions. That seems legit logic. Humor me though, since everyone’s attempts have flown over my head just show me one more time what you are talking about. (This should be educational for you.) As queen of assertion (and not proof) this may, of course, be impossible for you. Maybe I’ll win big and get the king to chime in here, but I’m looking at you dear.

And, really, ’everyone’s’ attempt to show me? What is this an appeal to and what weakness does it display?

Haven’t I already said? It’s far more educational to do the work yourself instead of asking others to do it for you.

It’s why we’re stuck in this mess right now, and it would also explain the deficiencies in your education coupled with that that putrid egocentric arrogance.

Are you attempting to overthrow the king of assertion here? I say no, you are the queen of assertion. If you want to move down the ranks though you will need to actually say something of substance. It still ain’t happening. I will take the suggestion offered here elsewhere and desist from further engagement. There is really no point.

Raine.1394:

i love what you find on webster’s for ‘subjective’: ‘based on feelings or opinions rather than facts.’

Weth, are you saying that you have come to your personal build(s), the one(s) you use for top of the game content, through your feelings and opinions? Have any facts ever intruded themselves?

Weth has been saying that “optimal” must be defined clearly and objectively (axiomatically) before any discussion on “optimal” can occur. As the parties in the discussion must first agree on this definition, this bit is subjective.

Your ability to catch context seems lacking for someone who seemingly took English classes beyond the required General Ed. ones.

Raine.1394:

Wethospu.6437:

Raine.1394:

—
But, let’s play. Have you caught me being ‘not right’ and therefore ‘dumb’? Let’s discuss this; I think it should be fun. Don’t say it, show it.

If this was a game all your posts would suddenly make sense.

Harper.4173:

You guys do realize you’re so far off mark with the discussion now it’s not even in the same galaxy.

The math doesn’t matter. It’s human nature to find the best way to do something. It’s also human nature to want to find that and use it as much as they can when they do find it.

In order to give some justification for my posts I will claim that I partially tried to remind everyone that “best” a.k.a “optimal solution” is subjective.

i love what you find on webster’s for ‘subjective’: ‘based on feelings or opinions rather than facts.’

Weth, are you saying that you have come to your personal build(s), the one(s) you use for top of the game content, through your feelings and opinions? Have any facts ever intruded themselves?

I think he meant ‘situational’ in this context, but ‘subjective’ would be accurate as well. There are several meta builds that sacrifice pure optimal DPS because the utility they bring to the table ‘feels’ to be a better trade-off regarding their role as the most efficient, general dungeon spec. Although most meta dungeoneers will slightly alter the builds depending on given encounters.

Seera.5916:

DaveGan and Raine will you two just agree to disagree and move back on topic? Or take you arguing to PM

I’d hate for this thread to be locked over an off topic argument.

I understand what you are saying and am sorry for this. I’m actually shocked that it hasn’t been locked—perhapss everyone is on holidays.

I am, perhaps, easily entertained, and I really shouldn’t assume everyone else wants to be along for the ride. I’m out. Ciao.

I don’t even bothering joining idiots parties that are only seeking ’their own party builds team’. So freakin’ ridiculous.
On my main, which is a mesmer, during Ascalonian Catacombs dungeon I created a LFG party, until we came inside the dungeon, I got kicked from my OWN created party only because I was using a PvE Mesmer with Staff.

Sure, it goes alot faster with this stupid build if everyone got that during dungeons, but heeeyyy- I’ve completed many AC, CM dungeons with only low-leveles and it worked just fine!
I just don’t see why people are so... unfair.
This community is just getting even worse everyday. People curse at each other, kicking people because they’re wearing the wrong armors, weapons or even the wrong race!!!
It’s quite sad, really.

People don’t want the meta to change because this game is all about farming the metric ton of gold it takes to get legendaries and other luxury skins.

If you change dungeons so they’re more challenging but longer, people will be upset because this game is incentivizing farming by putting forth hideously long gold grinds.

Alga.6498:

I don’t even bothering joining idiots parties that are only seeking ‘their own party builds team’. So freakin’ ridiculous.
On my main, which is a mesmer, during Ascalonian Catacombs dungeon I created a LFG party, until we came inside the dungeon, I got kicked from my OWN created party only because I was using a PvE Mesmer with Staff.

Sure, it goes alot faster with this stupid build if everyone got that during dungeons, but heeeyyy- I’ve completed many AC, CM dungeons with only low-leveles and it worked just fine!
I just don’t see why people are so… unfair.
This community is just getting even worse everyday. People curse at each other, kicking people because they’re wearing the wrong armors, weapons or even the wrong race!!!
It’s quite sad, really.

Prehaps people had read the Mesmer class guide:
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/21/gw2-mesmer-pve-class-guide-by-sanderinoa/#Staff

“Staff
The staff personifies the mesmer’s chaotic character. With the combination of boons, conditions, clones as well as fast, slow, high and low damaging attacks it proves to be a very versatile weapon. This versatility, however, is also its loss in PvE, as it does not allow for the high damage focus required in an optimal dungeon setting”

Basically even though you may have been (assasins geared – which is the met a for Mesmer) your choice of staff did not fit the optimal meta for a dungeon setting. Where staff is more appropriate for somewhere else.

TPMN.1483:

Alga.6498:

I don’t even bothering joining idiots parties that are only seeking ’their own party builds team’. So freakin’ ridiculous.
On my main, which is a mesmer, during Ascalonian Catacombs dungeon I created a LFG party, until we came inside the dungeon, I got kicked from my OWN created party only because I was using a PvE Mesmer with Staff.

Sure, it goes alot faster with this stupid build if everyone got that during dungeons, but heeeyyy- I’ve completed many AC, CM dungeons with only low-leveles and it worked just fine!
I just don’t see why people are so... unfair.
This community is just getting even worse everyday. People curse at each other, kicking people because they’re wearing the wrong armors, weapons or even the wrong race!!!
It’s quite sad, really.

Prehaps people had read the Mesmer class guide:
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/21/gw2-mesmer-pve-class-guide-by-sanderinoa/#Staff

"Staff
The staff personifies the mesmer’s chaotic character. With the combination of boons, conditions, clones as well as fast, slow, high and low damaging attacks it proves to be a very versatile weapon. This versatility, however, is also its loss in PvE, as it does not allow for the high damage focus required in an optimal dungeon setting"

Basically even though you may have been (assasins geared - which is the met a for Mesmer) your choice of staff did not fit the optimal meta for a dungeon setting. Where staff is more appropriate for somewhere else.

So what?! If I want to play Mesmer with a Staff, I’ll do whatever the hell I want.
This is exactly what I am talking about! Pure bullkitten.
Soon more idiots will find out that every professions should only use the same weapon(s) or else they’re out from the dungeon lists.
Pfffft, this is just kittened up!
Although this has only been happening to me once, so I still got hope for the dungeons community to actually let people equip whatever they like to.

(I am not trying to offense you, this is nothing towards you, just to let you know that, this is for the ’we-cant-play-with-mesmers-Staff-thingy fools’.)

For those thinking of running Mesmer staff in dungeons also check out : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Staff-in-dungeons/first#post4634169

The conclusion is that staff is great for open world but there are many better choices when in a dungeon scenario.

The problem is after 2 years many people will understand what is more optimal have a better idea how to get dungeons done quickly and expect similarly ideas of people.

This then becomes a exp run vs a play how I want run.
The longer the content is in place the higher the expectation that people will play as experienced and will lean towards a more optimal setup through trial and error or experience. (You are more likely to remain in groups if you are flexible and try the more optimal setups – even if you’re struggling to understand the build initially).

The runs with low level characters or inexperienced players where it goes fine (eg 15-30 mins) as opposed to (~9mins) is where the difference comes in.

It is really difficult to know which camp people are in (PHIW or EXP or META only) unless you join a guild with a similar style.

TPMN.1483:

For those thinking of running Mesmer staff in dungeons also check out : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Staff-in-dungeons/first#post4634169

The conclusion is that staff is great for open world but there are many better choices when in a dungeon scenario.

The problem is after 2 years many people will understand what is more optimal have a better idea how to get dungeons done quickly and expect similarly ideas of people.

This then becomes a exp run vs a play how I want run.
The longer the content is in place the higher the expectation that people will play as experienced and will lean towards a more optimal setup through trial and error or experience. (You are more likely to remain in groups if you are flexible and try the more optimal setups – even if you’re struggling to understand the build initially).

The runs with low level characters or inexperienced players where it goes fine (eg 15-30 mins) as opposed to (~9mins) is where the difference comes in.

It is really difficult to know which camp people are in (PHIW or EXP or META only) unless you join a guild with a similar style.

If they made their own LFG as an ‘anyone welcome’ group though, that is unacceptable behavior. This is the exact same problem meta-dungeoneers face and detest. S/he shares our same pain. Saying ‘find something more optimal’ really isn’t a good answer if the original intention was to group with like-minded individuals as we have stated MANY times as the solution to LFG problems.

Tman.6349:

TPMN.1483:

For those thinking of running Mesmer staff in dungeons also check out : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Staff-in-dungeons/first#post4634169

The conclusion is that staff is great for open world but there are many better choices when in a dungeon scenario.

The problem is after 2 years many people will understand what is more optimal have a better idea how to get dungeons done quickly and expect similarly ideas of people.

This then becomes a exp run vs a play how I want run.
The longer the content is in place the higher the expectation that people will play as experienced and will lean towards a more optimal setup through trial and error or experience. (You are more likely to remain in groups if you are flexible and try the more optimal setups – even if you’re struggling to understand the build initially).

The runs with low level characters or inexperienced players where it goes fine (eg 15-30 mins) as opposed to (~9mins) is where the difference comes in.

It is really difficult to know which camp people are in (PHIW or EXP or META only) unless you join a guild with a similar style.

If they made their own LFG as an ‘anyone welcome’ group though, that is unacceptable behavior. This is the exact same problem meta-dungeoneers face and detest. S/he shares our same pain. Saying ‘find something more optimal’ really isn’t a good answer if the original intention was to group with like-minded individuals as we have stated MANY times as the solution to LFG problems.

Unfortunately both sides have jerks.

The meta-dungeoneers need to write better LFG’s and the PHIW’s need to read the LFG’s fully before joining.

It will take a concerted effort by both sides to make this have any noticeable effect.

No sense in the PHIW’s reading the descriptions if the meta-dungeoneers don’t write descriptions that are a reflection of the group’s requirements (your meta-dungeoneer deciding to have his anyone welcome is an example of this).

No sense in the meta-dungeoneers writing descriptions that reflect the group requirements if the PHIW’s don’t read them and join anyway. Or read them, know they don’t fit them but join anyway, ping gear that’s in their inventory and not what they are wearing, or in otherwise lie their way into the group.

And both sides need to realize that both sides will have trolls and those who will simply not get with the program and don’t assume that the rude ones are the majority. They likely aren’t.

Zenith.7301:

People don’t want the meta to change because this game is all about farming the metric ton of gold it takes to get legendaries and other luxury skins.

If you change dungeons so they’re more challenging but longer, people will be upset because this game is incentivizing farming by putting forth hideously long gold grinds.

Nothing needs to change about completion times, just alternate design beyond the scope of draining health bars. I iterated this a while ago in some of my earlier posts regarding dungeon design and game design philosophies and the explanations behind why the “berserker meta” exists.

I’d like to put the nail into the coffin about the “optimization” debate as well in accordance with a combination of game theory and computer science by re-raising of my previous posts. The debate over “optimal strategies” is subjective. Why? Because while there can be objective, optimal strategies to solving a problem, equation, or performing a calculation of a function, the context varies within execution.

So compare the two following functions:
f(x) = (x + 2) * (x + 3)
f(x) = x*x + 5*x + 6

They are the same in regards to what f(x) is (under the assumption x is a self-contained expression). But you see, both can be optimal depending on the situation, kind of as though both are parameters to a greater function trying to solve a bigger problem; you are trying to use the function to solve a bigger problem and are comparing the two as parameters and the other parameters are the demands of the problem. If you’re programming driver software, one of the two will run faster depending on targeted machine architecture, so that one is preferred.

But for readability on the application level? That depends on the programmer who may need to expand upon them later. Personally, I believe the former to be more readable, and thus, in that scope, the optimal way of writing the function.

So let’s parallel this to the discussion where dungeon completion time is the condition to fulfill in terms of optimization.

DeceiverX.8361:

Back on topic, the problem still lies not in the stat allocation and distribution among equipment sets and their effects in combat but in why the optimization of certain strategies creates metagame strategies. Metagames are literally optimizations – abstract optimizations – or games within games – which define the “best” methodology of approaching a given situation based on a desired output yield; due to the fact this is an optimization within a confined environment, if variables change, that optimization at some threshold is guaranteed to also change.

And it can only change, not be removed altogether.

This is asserted in that in order to create a situation where there exists no metagame strategy, the ability to create an algorithmic solution to an associated problem must be removed. This implies one of two things:

Either there are infinitely many variables allowed to influence the problem (impossible due to programmatic limitations when examining computation theory and algorithms),

or

Two different algorithms perform exactly identical operations despite being differently constructed (a paradox; similar to 1 = 2).

So how are metagame strategies better removed? Well, by simply attempting to increase the pool of available variables to create the illusion that there are infinitely many, or try to approach infinitely many as best as possible.

Therefore in this kind of context, optimization adjustments to just raw numerical data will not affect much, for the variables are pretty much figured out.

So adding more – or simply changing – the number variables is what needs to occur.

So in TL;DR/simple speech, the dungeon design needs to change, since the algorithms of how to solve the problem have been figured out, and running some numbers is all it takes to tweak the dominant metagame strategy into a new one, merely moving the problem somewhere else, and we’re back at square one. By altering the dungeons to allow for the incorporation of more variables, the metagame requires much more effort to re-establish due to more complexity and dependencies on the differences between human interactions with the content.

The “berserker meta” exists only under the principle that time of completion is what is being considered as the optimization strategy. This is why none of the other formats have this as their metagame strategies, and thus any strategy that provides absolutely maximal DPS will remain as said strategy, regardless as to whatever stat distribution this is. If nomads proves to yield better DPS somehow in the long run, or there is a dungeon based solely on the principles of taking huge amounts of damage/mitigating it, that will become the optimization strategy.

It’s funny reading through threads like this. They usually start off with some sort of grievance but they almost always boil down to a few people arguing:

1. Human Nature
2. Their ability to write a convincing argument
3. Math/Spelling

It’s especially funny seeing the differences in early to later posts by the same poster. One dictionary and thesaurus later: Presto-change-O! Instant Oxford grad

Sounds ridiculous.

Saint.5647:

It’s funny reading through threads like this. They usually start off with some sort of grievance but they almost always boil down to a few people arguing:

1. Human Nature
2. Their ability to write a convincing argument
3. Math/Spelling

It’s especially funny seeing the differences in early to later posts by the same poster. One dictionary and thesaurus later: Presto-change-O! Instant Oxford grad

Sounds ridiculous.

The latter two are usually the result of people arguing the wrong topics with a firm and genuine belief that they are correct no matter what kind of evidence is shown to them, and wish to remain on top by trying to point out irrelevant problems with the other person rather than refuting the arguments posed. As such, this often goes back and forth repeatedly when no parties in the debate are actually “correct” in regards to their analysis of the problem.

Kind of like how we’re raised, though; when politicians run for election, never are their strategies to resolve the problems they’re voted in for announced. Instead, they simply try to bad-mouth the other parties with irrelevant topics that have no merit to the effectiveness of the leadership capabilities of the other party.

DeceiverX.8361:

Saint.5647:

It’s funny reading through threads like this. They usually start off with some sort of grievance but they almost always boil down to a few people arguing:

1. Human Nature
2. Their ability to write a convincing argument
3. Math/Spelling

It’s especially funny seeing the differences in early to later posts by the same poster. One dictionary and thesaurus later: Presto-change-O! Instant Oxford grad

Sounds ridiculous.

The latter two are usually the result of people arguing the wrong topics with a firm and genuine belief that they are correct no matter what kind of evidence is shown to them, and wish to remain on top by trying to point out irrelevant problems with the other person rather than refuting the arguments posed. As such, this often goes back and forth repeatedly when no parties in the debate are actually “correct” in regards to their analysis of the problem.

Kind of like how we’re raised, though; when politicians run for election, never are their strategies to resolve the problems they’re voted in for announced. Instead, they simply try to bad-mouth the other parties with irrelevant topics that have no merit to the effectiveness of the leadership capabilities of the other party.

Not all countries resort to bad mouthing to win elections.

spoj.9672:

DeceiverX.8361:

Saint.5647:

It’s funny reading through threads like this. They usually start off with some sort of grievance but they almost always boil down to a few people arguing:

1. Human Nature
2. Their ability to write a convincing argument
3. Math/Spelling

It’s especially funny seeing the differences in early to later posts by the same poster. One dictionary and thesaurus later: Presto-change-O! Instant Oxford grad

Sounds ridiculous.

The latter two are usually the result of people arguing the wrong topics with a firm and genuine belief that they are correct no matter what kind of evidence is shown to them, and wish to remain on top by trying to point out irrelevant problems with the other person rather than refuting the arguments posed. As such, this often goes back and forth repeatedly when no parties in the debate are actually “correct” in regards to their analysis of the problem.

Kind of like how we’re raised, though; when politicians run for election, never are their strategies to resolve the problems they’re voted in for announced. Instead, they simply try to bad-mouth the other parties with irrelevant topics that have no merit to the effectiveness of the leadership capabilities of the other party.

Not all countries resort to bad mouthing to win elections.

Indeed, some just forcefully select the next dictator to rule with an iron fist :P

DeceiverX.8361:

spoj.9672:

DeceiverX.8361:

Saint.5647:

It’s funny reading through threads like this. They usually start off with some sort of grievance but they almost always boil down to a few people arguing:

1. Human Nature
2. Their ability to write a convincing argument
3. Math/Spelling

It’s especially funny seeing the differences in early to later posts by the same poster. One dictionary and thesaurus later: Presto-change-O! Instant Oxford grad

Sounds ridiculous.

The latter two are usually the result of people arguing the wrong topics with a firm and genuine belief that they are correct no matter what kind of evidence is shown to them, and wish to remain on top by trying to point out irrelevant problems with the other person rather than refuting the arguments posed. As such, this often goes back and forth repeatedly when no parties in the debate are actually “correct” in regards to their analysis of the problem.

Kind of like how we’re raised, though; when politicians run for election, never are their strategies to resolve the problems they’re voted in for announced. Instead, they simply try to bad-mouth the other parties with irrelevant topics that have no merit to the effectiveness of the leadership capabilities of the other party.

Not all countries resort to bad mouthing to win elections.

Indeed, some just forcefully select the next dictator to rule with an iron fist :P

I was still referring democratic countries. Im pretty shocked at how it is in the US.

At the end of the day zerk is just a gear set not a meta. What ppl do is simply build arone zerk to make it work. A meta would be the old 3 war 1 mez and 1 ele (for fgs).