Guild Wars 2

In the past few days i have had quite a few arguments with people about this topic, now i could sit here and just force my beliefs down your throat but i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

When i first bought this game i was kind of shocked that i was able to buy gold with gems, it screams p2w. I ended up looking past it as Guild Wars 2 has been a game i was looking forward to playing since the first game, i just ended up getting into it a bit late.
Anyways as i said, i ended up looking past this and just played and for the most part i ignored the gem store. However lately now that i am on the grind for a legendary and my ascended armors, gold seems to be my only issue, and the fact that if i so chose, i could very well just skip the entire process has started to get on my nerves a bit.

Anyways i probably seem like i am rambling so i’ll finish by asking what you all think of this.

Pay 2 Win is paying for an advantage over others.

What you describe is Pay 2 Progress faster.

The trouble with labeling GW2 P2W is that it has only one “tier” of endgame gear (ascended) beyond the baseline (exotic) and there is only one game mode that requires this gear (fractals). Ascended gear does provide a modest boost to stats over exotic, but the primary purpose is as a vessel for infusions that provide the agony resistance you need to progress into higher level fractals.

So, while you can certainly buy gems with cash, convert them to gold, and deck yourself out in full ascended gear, the only requirement to do so is to reach higher level fractals. That’s about all the P2W that exists in GW2: one game mode that is not in any way required (I’ve barely done any fractals myself, even though I’m only 2 pieces away from full ascended and have crafted my first legendary).

Slightly P2W? Yes. Very slightly. To the point where I imagine most players don’t consider it an issue.

Personally( and I know I’m kinda singular in this belief) I don’t mind the gem to gold conversion. Not thrilled at the exchange rate mind, but at least its a way that allows you a fairly safe way to get gold without having to get ones account hacked by a disreputable gold seller. I’ve played a handfull of MMo’s over the years and GW2 is the only one I have found that actually does a conversion like this.

Most game companies tend to set rarities on items and then use that to make one farm the currency of choice for said item so that you play longer to get the better items. And while GW does this they at least saw a opportunity to the casual gamer that had spare cash to at least have SOME progress with a direct gem to gold store.

Admittedly im starting to feel that GW2 has TOO MANY currencies and keys and things of that like, since with every new zone we get a new currency and while in some thematically it makes sense they need to stop doing that at some point.

BY DEFINITION, any game where you can purchase in-game currency with Real Life money is “pay to win”. It’s actually why you aren’t able to purchase in-game currency with RL money in most MMOs and why there is such a healthy illegal Gold Selling business for games.

Every MMO that has gold-sellers is pay to win then too. lol

Head Kracker.4790:

Personally( and I know I’m kinda singular in this belief) I don’t mind the gem to gold conversion. Not thrilled at the exchange rate mind, but at least its a way that allows you a fairly safe way to get gold without having to get ones account hacked by a disreputable gold seller. I’ve played a handfull of MMo’s over the years and GW2 is the only one I have found that actually does a conversion like this.

Most game companies tend to set rarities on items and then use that to make one farm the currency of choice for said item so that you play longer to get the better items. And while GW does this they at least saw a opportunity to the casual gamer that had spare cash to at least have SOME progress with a direct gem to gold store.

Admittedly im starting to feel that GW2 has TOO MANY currencies and keys and things of that like, since with every new zone we get a new currency and while in some thematically it makes sense they need to stop doing that at some point.

WoW uses a subscription model, so what they do is sell 1 month subscription tokens on their trading post (they call it the auction house). A player buys a token with cash (at $20 rather than the standard $14.99 month-to-month subscription cost) and then may either sell the token for gold to another player or use it to add a month to their subscription. Thus the rate in gold is determined by the market just as our gem/gold exchange here.

I guess I assumed selling gold to players rather than leaving it in the hands of unscrupulous gold sellers was the direction the MMO industry was headed? Is that not the case?

Djinn.9245:

BY DEFINITION, any game where you can purchase in-game currency with Real Life money is “pay to win”. It’s actually why you aren’t able to purchase in-game currency with RL money in most MMOs and why there is such a healthy illegal Gold Selling business for games.

Yes and no. Like I said, if GW2 is P2W it’s only very slightly so. I like what somebody else called it: pay to progress faster. I only consider it pay to win if you can spend cash to gain a large advantage over other players. In GW2 you only need ascended gear to get into high level fractals.

So you can cut through low level fractals by purchasing ascended gear and infusions, but that’s really the extent of it. And since fractals aren’t required for anything, it’s hard to label the entire game P2W based on that alone.

I only see P2D (pay to dress) Especially as there is nothing to win beside pvp where gold doesn’t help you and if you buy gold for PvE you only loose, namely play-time/money.

In the Guild Wars 2 system, time is inversely proportional to money. You can spend time, or money or both. This doesn’t affect SPvP at all, which is the main competitive mode of the game.

In other games, you can buy gold and buy stuff too, even if it’s illegal.

This doesn’t make Guild Wars 2 pay to win. You’re paying for convenience.

I mean no one I know called Guild Wars pay to win and they sold actual skill packs. This continual shifting of the pay to win bar accomplishes nothing.

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

BY DEFINITION, any game where you can purchase in-game currency with Real Life money is “pay to win”. It’s actually why you aren’t able to purchase in-game currency with RL money in most MMOs and why there is such a healthy illegal Gold Selling business for games.

Yes and no. Like I said, if GW2 is P2W it’s only very slightly so. I like what somebody else called it: pay to progress faster. I only consider it pay to win if you can spend cash to gain a large advantage over other players. In GW2 you only need ascended gear to get into high level fractals.

So you can cut through low level fractals by purchasing ascended gear and infusions, but that’s really the extent of it. And since fractals aren’t required for anything, it’s hard to label the entire game P2W based on that alone.

Considering that you can’t “win” a MMO, P2W simply means that you can pay to get what you want.

In MMOs where you can’t use RL money to purchase in-game currency, and talking about the majority of players who don’t want to risk their accounts buying things illegally, you can only purchase things with RL money if the company sells them in their RL$ Store (vs the Auction House or other in-game shop). Most MMOs in this category have a policy to only sell things that don’t affect gameplay like cosmetic items in their RL$ stores (see WoW). And even then they don’t sell cosmetic items that people have to earn through grind or difficult gameplay like raiding because it undermines that effort. Whereas I’m certain people purchase things like Legendary weapons in GW2 all the time with gold from a RL$ transaction.

I wouldn’t call the ability to buy gold pay-to-win. Earning gold is a goal for most people, and you can just buy your way to that goal, but when you buy gold, you’re selling gems to other players, which is almost universally regarded as a good thing. Compare this situation to, say, an endless runner where you can buy extra lives, or a game that would sell you stronger weapons and armor than you can obtain in-game.

The involvement of real-world money at all will never sit well with some people, but I’ve never been displeased by GW2’s implementation of it. For example, I’ve never heard of a party demanding players to bring revive orbs to a dungeon or raid.

Just remember that: ANet is not selling Gold

ANet is selling Gems to get gemshop items and server-transfers. And beside storage extension and permanent-harvesting tools there is nothing in the gems-shop that helps you to play.

Gem-Gold is a player-to-player trade. One gain gold, the other gain gems, and both boost their goals with that.

So what i’ve gathered from these comments is that if you dont play pvp nothing else matters. Lol. Idk why anyone else plays but i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats. And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended. I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning. Just because ascended armor isnt much better than exotic doesn’t mean that it can’t be a goal and the fact is that it is better. It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest. Again if you don’t pvp much then you have no right to complain i suppose? I’m never going to legitimately think this.

Dayra.7405:

Just remember that: ANet is not selling Gold

okay? you still buy it with your real money.

OP has established that the game has a “pay” option. They have yet to provide evidence that there’s something to be “won” by choosing to spend RL cash to get gems.

GBEW.5947:

And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended.

Yes, you can spend money to shorten your play.time, but is this a win for you?
If you say yes, then I wonder why you waste time with gaming at all
SImply don’t play MMO’s that costs neither money. nor time, a double win for you.

Two articles on the topic of what is Pay to Win.

http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win

http://www.mmogames.com/gamearticles/the-5-tiers-of-pay-to-win/

I fall into the camp that P2W is getting significantly better gear for cash that is not attainable in game.

I don’t count buying in game gold because with RMT sites, anyone can buy in game gold. All that official channels provide is letting the studio/publisher in on a slice of that market. It’s like how it’s better for a government to tax a vice, income, rather than expend the manpower to try and eliminate it, an expense.

GBEW.5947:

So what i’ve gathered from these comments is that if you dont play pvp nothing else matters. Lol. Idk why anyone else plays but i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats. And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended. I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning. Just because ascended armor isnt much better than exotic doesn’t mean that it can’t be a goal and the fact is that it is better. It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest. Again if you don’t pvp much then you have no right to complain i suppose? I’m never going to legitimately think this.

You can skip the grind, but you still have to craft the armor. Some people like the grind. I have three full sets of ascended on different characters and I did it without selling gems or spending real life money. Therefore you can win without paying.

More to the point, because content isn’t locked out by not having that gear (as it is in MMOs that are actually pay to win), it’s not that much of an inconvenience.

In other words, you pay to accelerate, not pay to win. There’s a difference. There are games out there where the best gear in the game can only be bought.

GBEW.5947:

So what i’ve gathered from these comments is that if you dont play pvp nothing else matters. Lol. Idk why anyone else plays but i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats. And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended. I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning. Just because ascended armor isnt much better than exotic doesn’t mean that it can’t be a goal and the fact is that it is better. It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest. Again if you don’t pvp much then you have no right to complain i suppose? I’m never going to legitimately think this.

To me Pay to Win is either being something that gives an in game benefit that is only available for purchase with real life money OR an item that GREATLY reduces the amount of grind needed to progress the game that either is only purchasable by real life money or an insane amount of in game currency (if there is a real life to in game currency conversion like there is with GW2 and gems to gold/gold to gems). Basically anything where if you do NOT pay real life money you will spend years trying to keep up with the players who do.

Ascended crafting doesn’t qualify as something like that. Neither do legendary weapons.

This is ridiculous… pay-2-win is not a matter of opinion on its definition. Yes you can buy gold with gems, or buy gems with gold(which means you spent ZERO $$). So the question is, is it pay-2-win? No in simple terms, what defines your strength is your level, regardless of how much gear you buy. Sure you can buy ascended gear, but it has already been determined that you don’t even need ascended gear to raid(some guilds have done it with ALL GREENS). “Oh but you can buy experience boosters, that is pay-2-win!” No, you are still required to put work into the game to level, it does not give you experience, it just slightly speeds it up. If winning is “beating the personal story” then no this game is not pay to win, you get free gear from leveling, and story missions are almost impossible to fail. PVP does not even use currency for gear so that is ruled out. WvW wins are more gear based but you still need to get levels to get better exotic gear to have near max stats.

Skipping a grind for ascended gear is not pay-2-win, that is just skipping a grind. It really comes down to skill of a player in any combat situation. Most people cannot solo things like arah explorable or champions in HoT, even with ascended gear, while some with exotics can solo these with ease. The implementation of gems to gold and gold to gems is and has been a way for players to have another option to the gem store that does not require REAL money. If one so desires they can even trade gems to in game currency, but I can guarantee you will never have an advantage over someone else that even remotely describes pay-2-win.

Gold is a currency, not a skill. What determines a monster killing you? Your level difference, your ability to dodge, your ability to play the game.

A person who spends 1 million dollars on gems to gold will only really be helping arenanet but they will never have an advantage over someone who has far more skill(and PVP is purely skill as money is not even involved).

GBEW.5947:

So your saying don’t play guild wars? Uh no.

That was not what i said. I said you first spend money to get the game and then you spend money to skip large parts of the game instead of playing them. Why do you see this as winning?

Or to cite mysself (as I still do not understand it):

Dayra.7405:

It happens often, but still it surprises me again and again, probably because I do not understand it.

There seem to be a not so small amount of players that always do the following

1. Ask for a new game or new content to a game
2. Buy it
3. Notice they don’t want to play it
4. Ask for buying the solution of the game
5. Have nothing to do, so go back to 1

That’s fine for me, they pay the game I like to play
But can someone explain me, why people are doing that?

This is how the phrase “Pay to Win” is supposed to be defined:

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

I cannot stress enough, how impossible that is to do in this game. Ascended armor cannot be bought, it has to be crafted. You cannot circumvent the acquisition of several account bound items needed to craft them, either. Yes, you can buy a legendary, for somewhere around $350-$400 of real money, but what advantage are you really getting? I mean, perception is everything, and it’s pretty widely accepted that the gap between exotic and ascended is negligible in all game modes. So, where is this perception that buying a legendary weapon—which is exactly as powerful as an ascended weapon of the same type—considered pay to win?

Who changed the definition? Why did we suddenly start muddying that definition? Because a game offered people the opportunity to purchase currency in a game? I think we need to instead look at what advantages that currency provides, rather than shallowly scrutinizing the business model.

Dayra.7405:

GBEW.5947:

So your saying don’t play guild wars? Uh no.

That was not what i said. I said you first spend money to get the game and then you spend money to skip large parts of the game instead of playing them. Why?

Or to cite mysself (as I still do not understand it):

Dayra.7405:

It happens often, but still it surprises me again and again, probably because I do not understand it.

There seem to be a not so small amount of players that always do the following

1. Ask for a new game or new content to a game
2. Buy it
3. Notice they don’t want to play it
4. Ask for buying the solution of the game
5. Have nothing to do, so go back to 1

That’s fine for me, they pay the game I like to play
But can someone explain me, why people are doing that?

I can explain it: They bought a game and found it boring/too hard/whatever but don’t want to say they never finished it. So they ask for a way to bypass the game so they can say the finished the game.

I’m somehow amused by the direction our OP took after the first post. Anyway, GW2 is not p2w, no matter whether you can obtain ingame currency via money or not. As a previous poster said, we may have the “pay” part, but not the “win”.

Tell me how is it pay to win when an upscaled player in white gear get a precursor from an open world event while you, with your 10000$ kit, only achieve to get some green trash?
Pay to win lol.
The only one winning here is Anet.

if the gem store offered anything you couldn’t get in game, like better stats, unlocking all waypoints, etc, then I’d call it p2w. as it stands now, I don’t.

you don’t automatically win the game (in any sense of the word) by having ascended gear.

Behellagh.1468:

I don’t count buying in game gold because with RMT sites, anyone can buy in game gold. All that official channels provide is letting the studio/publisher in on a slice of that market.

This is the best point against my opinion that i have seen however in games that dont have this option, buying gold is generally frowned upon and there is multiple risks being either you never end up receiving the gold you paid for (this happened A LOT when i was buying items on diablo 2.) or you getting caught and banned.
i for one really enjoy the idea of the people behind the game profiting rather than some kitten in taiwan so don’t get me wrong it definitly has its strong points, But for those of us that don’t want to spend absurd amounts of money that i quite frankly need to cover insurance, Bills, gas, food, diapers etc. i just can’t even if i did want too.
Which makes me think it is little kittened up that someone can buy the game, make a brand new character, and buy themselves all the legendary items. The argument for this that i have seen however is that legendary items arent any better than ascended, to that i say screw you. Legendary items are the pinnacle of pve rewards and you should never be able to just simply buy them with actual money, However with the way the game is right now i also think you should be able to buy them with in game gold. So this is impossible i know. It still is FACT that legendaries are sought after pieces most spend quite some time to obtain. If you don’t think this is winning then i don’t know what else to say to you.

GBEW.5947:

Behellagh.1468:

I don’t count buying in game gold because with RMT sites, anyone can buy in game gold. All that official channels provide is letting the studio/publisher in on a slice of that market.

This is the best point against my opinion that i have seen however in games that dont have this option, buying gold is generally frowned upon and there is multiple risks being either you never end up receiving the gold you paid for (this happened A LOT when i was buying items on diablo 2.) or you getting caught and banned.
i for one really enjoy the idea of the people behind the game profiting rather than some kitten in taiwan so don’t get me wrong it definitly has its strong points, But for those of us that don’t want to spend absurd amounts of money that i quite frankly need to cover insurance, Bills, gas, food, diapers etc. i just can’t even if i did want too.
Which makes me think it is little kittened up that someone can buy the game, make a brand new character, and buy themselves all the legendary items. The argument for this that i have seen however is that legendary items arent any better than ascended, to that i say screw you. Legendary items are the pinnacle of pve rewards and you should never be able to just simply buy them with actual money, However with the way the game is right now i also think you should be able to buy them with in game gold. So this is impossible i know. It still is FACT that legendaries are sought after pieces most spend quite some time to obtain. If you don’t think this is winning then i don’t know what else to say to you.

Keep in mind, there are four legendaries in the game that can’t be bought at all, and they’re more prestigious than any of the original legendaries.

Vayne.8563:

Keep in mind, there are four legendaries in the game that can’t be bought at all, and they’re more prestigious than any of the original legendaries.

That is a fair point, However i still like my eternity and i still think it should have value.

GBEW.5947:

i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

GBEW.5947:

This is just a dumb statement. i’m 100% sure i don’t need to explain why.

GBEW.5947:

Learn to read.

GBEW.5947:

i am now a firm believer that the guild wars community either A, Has no idea what they are talking about. Or B, simply likes to argue when their views are questioned.

lol ur mad.

Seems a bit contradictory.

I think the option to exchange Gold to Gems and Gems to Gold is quite generous and game-healthy on ArenaNet’s part. It gives us an option to acquire Gem Store items sans cash, and allows those that usually buy game currency from Gold-Sellers a safer option. I’m unsure if this applies to OP referencing this statement:

GBEW.5947:

multiple risks being either you never end up receiving the gold you paid for (this happened A LOT when i was buying items on diablo 2.) or you getting caught and banned.

Well I have not spent any real money at all at gem store, I have geared around 12 characters in full ascended with fractals and raids alone and wasting my gold on bl keys,bank slots and other bl items and i’ve been playing for 1 year more or less(2 years with a couple of 6month breaks).
Imo it’s not p2w; yes if you spend money on gems→gold it will become easier, but I believe that even if you don’t, the game is not gonna get punishing or frustrating/unplayable. Were there times that I wished I had more gold? yeah always, and everyone wants more gold. There are people with hundreds of thousands of gold that keep trying to get more (you know who you are :p)
It’s a personal preference if you choose to play the game as it was intended to get the gold (spend time) or take the shortcut and spend money. Both are fine in my eyes.

The question is how much are you willing to pay in time/money for ingame
items and how much those items are priced. If it took you 5 months of constant grinding to get a single piece of ascended, then it would be kittened, same if anet offered you 1 gold per 10 $ you spend. In my opinion both those aspects are balanced at the moment.
Getting ascended is easy with fractals/raids/elite spec collections/bloodstone fen etc, ascended by itself is not an absolute must for most of the game modes (only required for fractals and maybe raids), exotic is extremely easy to get and well, if you chose to go for legendary, then getting the most expensive item in game (which btw is mostly cosmetic) should have a high price by default.
On the other hand the exchange rate is around 5$ per 100g -unless I’m mistaken- which translates in around 2h-3h of grinding? maybe someone more experienced in min-max grinding can shed his light on that. In any case it doesn’t seem too bad for me.
That’s my 2c :p

GBEW.5947:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

OP has established that the game has a “pay” option. They have yet to provide evidence that there’s something to be “won” by choosing to spend RL cash to get gems.

Learn to read.

You asked what we thought.

GBEW.5947:

i would rather have a healthy discussion

Responding to someone else’s views with “learn to read” won’t promote a healthy discussion.

GBEW.5947:

When i first bought this game i was kind of shocked that i was able to buy gold with gems, it screams p2w.

If you start off assuming something, it’s hard to see evidence of alternative explanations.

GBEW.5947:

.now that i am on the grind for a legendary and my ascended armors, gold seems to be my only issue, and the fact that if i so chose, i could very well just skip the entire process has started to get on my nerves a bit.

The fact that something gets on your nerves doesn’t establish a “pay to win” scenario. What is it that you are “winning” if you buy gems and convert it to gold? You reach your goal more quickly, but in the end, all that you did was trade money for time. You won’t end up with any advantage over others who play more hours and/or more efficiently.

In other words, you’ve established that the game offers the ability to “pay”, but not that there’s anything to win by doing so.

GBEW.5947:

i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats.

I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning.

It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest.

Or your definitions of what you think winning is are not in the majority. And quite frankly, if you are looking for a game where the grind is absolute, you’re not playing the right game. ANet has said many times convenience items will be sold. Not the power itself.

The gold trading feature is also not sold by ANet. Any gold transactions through it are defined by the players, ANet being an intermediary to moderate prices based on supply/demand. The gold came from somewhere; likely, it came from the people who had to take the time to get their ascended armor without purchasing anything.

Basically, you’re complaining about having the ability to “win” on your definitions despite the other people who are selling the money already having “won” potentially years ago.

GBEW.5947:

i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

GBEW.5947:

Learn to read.

GBEW.5947:

?? how dense can you guys be? I can literally solve my biggest issue in game right now with my credit card. Yet it isnt paying to win? Wtf.

GBEW.5947:

So your saying don’t play guild wars? Uh no.

I was really trying to look at this and gather others thoughts however most of you just seem like flaming is your pass-time hobby so im just gomna go ahead and throw my opinions out there as fact from now on.

I’ll reiterate:

i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

You’ve deviated fast. Seems to me you’re not looking for a discussion but instead just wanted to rally a ton of people behind you to try and scream P2W when in reality, the game is far from it.

By the gaming community’s convention at large, not yours, the game is not P2W. The people selling gold have probably already achieved maxed out everything and are just selling the gold for cosmetic items, because in their opinion, being the best-dressed is very important to them.

GBEW.5947:

i am now a firm believer that the guild wars community either A, Has no idea what they are talking about. Or B, simply likes to argue when their views are questioned.

No, you literally asked for a discussion, and were the first to break of that healthy discussion.

i would rather have a healthy discussion and get down to it as i would like to know your thoughts.

GBEW.5947:

the fact remains that this is pay to win in some peoples eyes and most have lost the meaning or concept on what pay to win is. Refer to sig.

And what is P2W in your eyes is not what the convention of P2W means. That’s not losing meaning or concept. I came from/worked for a popular game a decade ago which had massive stat variance and a literal endless treadmill of grind to being better. It has a system which you could buy characters, gear, money, account-bound items – pretty much anything – and these things were directly sold by the players, set at their own prices, with only a profit tax. Given roughly $30,000 USD, you could outfit a top-tier character. Given around $100 a month, you could be competitive in the PvP. And there was always a way to be increasingly better by spending more money, because the stats always got better, even if only by a margin of .1% (and sometimes as large as almost 200%), and someone was always willing to sell what they got.

And the game was open-PK, meaning people could deny you the ability to farm or do literally anything if you tried to get out of buying things by farming. And they did.

That’s Pay2Win. On your definition, and the community at-large’s.

GW2, you skip a bit of the grind if you spend money to do things. Okay? What does it matter, though? You said you look for optimal stats. Nobody’s stopping you. Ascended gear has fixed stats. They’re not different between players, and they’re never going to improve, and nothing new to power-creep it is coming. As soon as you reach ascended, if the gear grind is fun for you, then you’ve finished the game entirely forever. Time to go play a new game, because then what makes it fun to you is over. If it is what’s fun for you, why does it make you upset other people can do it faster? So what? If you have fun grinding, it means literally nothing at what rate other people play the game. They’re not taking away from your fun. You’re denying yourself fun because of arbitrary jealousy or them taking the “easy way” out of what is pretty much exclusively a time-gated experience. The real likelihood is they’re spending similar time to you, just doing different things, like WvW. Because in their eyes, they see PvP as what’s fun and what matters, and GW2 does an excellent job at keeping the power tightly-sealed at endgame.

To me, you’re playing the wrong game. If you want something about the grind with no shortcuts, go look for a subscription title. Anything that doesn’t take a monthly fee will be selling shortcuts, because that’s how GW2 stays afloat. They need to pay the bills. Better doing that than having expensive item malls which are strict dependencies to acquire the best stats at endgame, which is what most other titles offer. Because then that invalidates the grind, and skews every other facet of the game. That’s the convention of P2W.

“lol ur mad”

Because people do not agree with you, they are wrong and upset. Yup, you’re real fun to have a discussion with, particularly when you tell anyone (and now everyone) who disagrees with you that they’re just mad.

Honestly, if this was a troll, it’s quite the failure. I think the intent is to make other people upset and start flaming while losing their cool, not you

I enjoy posting long-winded replies, since I view the forums more fun than the game currently.

P2W is when you get facerolled in PvP by the guys with legendaries, if legendaries had better stats.

If p2w isn’t about power you can buy with money but about whatever you decide it is, then I’ve decided that buying fashion from the gemstore is p2w. If someone has bought an armor set that I don’t have and that’s not currently available then he won over me because…. Fashion Wars 2! If a cosmetic item is put on sale and someone buys it an hour before me then he won also because he was more beautiful than me for that hour.

So you see, once you decide to change the meaning of p2w from the real meaning to fit your grievance of the day then you head into nonsensical territory.

Buying convenience or time (or fashion) isn’t pay to win. Not even in a small amount.

We all made valid arguments why Guild Wars 2 isn’t Pay to Win. Let this thread die because all your doing is fueling his ego and his attempt to trigger anyone with a valid reasonable argument.

Every single MMO out there is P2W, WoW included.

GW2 probably is the most fair and least P2W MMO out there.

GBEW.5947:

legendaries are kittening expensive and should take a long time to obtain.

A reasonable opinion, and a completely separate issue than pay to win.

Is it play-to-win? In the general sense? No. Is it pay-to-buy gold from ANet through the gem system? Definitely. Can that turn into a pay-to-buy gold that one can then use to buy better equipment (i.e. legendaries), and thus ‘pay-to-win’?

In that specific criteria, yes. It is. If one is willing to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars or pounds to gain that benefit, then yes.

Again, only if one is looking at the given criteria in that narrow spectrum. But in the general sense? No, it’s not.

For example, in Star Trek Online, I paid $100.00 to be able to buy that Tholian ship. That ship destroys everything in its path with its nuke-everything-in-sight pets.

That was a pay-to-win scenario. Nothing in Guild Wars 2 comes close.

lol pay2win what ? beauty contest ? but there is no beauty contest in GW2.

GBEW.5947:

So what i’ve gathered from these comments is that if you dont play pvp nothing else matters. Lol. Idk why anyone else plays but i play to get gear, Load myself with gold, and achieve near perfect stats. And the fact is that i could spend $100 and completely skip my grind for ascended. I don’t see how anyone can say this isn’t winning. Just because ascended armor isnt much better than exotic doesn’t mean that it can’t be a goal and the fact is that it is better. It seems as if the term winning has been lost on the mmo community to be completely honest. Again if you don’t pvp much then you have no right to complain i suppose? I’m never going to legitimately think this.

To try and explain why some people don’t consider this winning I’m going to use an extreme example.

In Warcraft 2 (the RTS from 1995) there is a cheat code which literally wins the game for you. Type it in at any point and when you hit enter you’re declared the winner of the entire campaign, get the end cinematic, credits and the campain summary screen.

And yet it’s very rarely used. Why? Because as contradictory as it might sound getting to that end screen is not really the point. The point is playing the game, and the sense of achievement you get from completing your goals within in. If you skip to the end all you’ve achieved is giving yourself less game to play.

In a more subtle way it’s the same with GW2. Yes you can buy gold and use that to buy materials to level crafting and then the time-gated materials so you can make ascended faster – or even buy legendaries out-right if you’re willing to spend that much. And then you’ve completed your goal of getting the best equipment in the game. But all you’ve really achieved by paying for it is skipping a chunk of gameplay and given yourself one less thing to aim for while playing.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like I was dissapointed with my legendary once I had it. I really enjoy having and using it and I’m looking forward to getting my 2nd. But I don’t see paying so I don’t need to play as much to get it as winning.

AliamRationem.5172:

The trouble with labeling GW2 P2W is that it has only one “tier” of endgame gear (ascended) beyond the baseline (exotic) and there is only one game mode that requires this gear (fractals). Ascended gear does provide a modest boost to stats over exotic, but the primary purpose is as a vessel for infusions that provide the agony resistance you need to progress into higher level fractals.

So, while you can certainly buy gems with cash, convert them to gold, and deck yourself out in full ascended gear, the only requirement to do so is to reach higher level fractals. That’s about all the P2W that exists in GW2: one game mode that is not in any way required (I’ve barely done any fractals myself, even though I’m only 2 pieces away from full ascended and have crafted my first legendary).

Slightly P2W? Yes. Very slightly. To the point where I imagine most players don’t consider it an issue.

This sums up the other side of it.

Paying to skip ahead to the completion of one of your goals could be considered pay to win if that allowed you to complete everything else faster or easier. But in GW2 that’s not the case.

If you’ve got two players – a newbie with full ascended with a good stat combination and matching runes and sigils – and an experienced player in exotics, or even rares, with a less popular stat combination and you ask them to complete the same content the experienced player is always going to do better because knowing the game and your build makes far more of a difference than having “perfect” stats.

The stats will help, sure, but they’re not the deciding factor. Aka they do not allow you to win.

the only p2w element exist in GW2, if you even can consider it as p2w, is the advantage of account with HoT over one who doesn’t, in terms of availability of elite specs. even then, a skilled one legged vanilla mesmer can win against a crap chronomancer.

Fixing ye ol’ forum bug.

To be honest, what does it matter? How other ppl get their gear or if they pay for their progression is utterly irrelevant. More power to them if a player chooses to spend their money to progress.

Whether a P2W label is accurate or not, they key thing is that beyond dlcs and expacs, the game does not force p2w to stay competitive or to as the only means to an end. It doesn’t improve your skill and it doesn’t let you skip content.

So yeah it might have some slight P2W elements depending on how you want to define p2w, but it isn’t implemented to the detriment of the game

Man the theme of pay 2 win has changed so much since back from when i used to play online consistently… I mean if we’re talking PvE or WvW ive seen people in Masterworks demolish people in Ascended gear…

Back when I could play games a lot Pay 2 Win meant buying power. Getting a definitive advantage over other players that those players can not attain unless they also wanted to spend money. Playfully called Wallet Warriors

Everything here is just paying for convenience. Is your time worth more to you than your money or is your money worth more than your time? You decide and no matter what you decide it doesnt stop those players from attaining the exact same thing as you.

In the recent months since ive come back Ascended Gear has been more and more common… Fractal Daily Missions hand out ascended equipment like candy on halloween.
Some reward tracks in PvP have a chance of giving ascended equipment.
And you are guaranteed Ascended Gear from Raiding WIN OR LOSE and raiding isnt as hard as everyone makes it out to be.(obviously faster if you win though)

In the couple months since returning to the game with some friends we have gotten more Ascended gear than we know what to even do with from on-off Raiding, Fractal Daily and PvP without spending Gems or Gold.

For me people throw around the term Pay 2 Win far too often that its lost most of its meaning… I mean hell theres 5 Tiers of it now?

Paying real money to buy ingame gold is not pay to win.

Pay to win is being able to buy direct power for real money which you cannot get otherwise.

GW2 will never be a pay to win game as long as:
1. you can trade gold for gems.
2. Anet doesnt sell gear/costumes or w.e in the gem store that gives combat stats.

As long as free users can get anything that paying users can get it is not pay to win at the slightest…

GBEW.5947:

?? how dense can you guys be? I can literally solve my biggest issue in game right now with my credit card. Yet it isnt paying to win? Wtf.

1. The term “pay to win” began with games which sell stuff in the store that give an advantage in competitive play. These are typically significant boosts to stats which could not be obtained any other way (i.e. by playing the game). Those without were simply not able to compete with those who had them. By this usage of the term, there is no P2W in GW2.
2. Lately, and specifically with regard to GW2, the term “Pay to Win” has been used to refer to any outlay of cash to get something the player wants. All sorts of things get pointed to, from “winning” the game by getting skins to avoiding perceived “grind.” According to this usage, both the gem store and the gems-to-gold exchange are P2W.

Those who disagree with you are doing so most likely because they don’t accept the attempts to redefine the term. I agree with them. Just because a term can evolve does not mean that it should.

The question of whether the gems-to-gold exchange devalues things like Legendary Weapons or Asc. Armor is a worthy topic. However, there are negative connotations attached to the term P2W. Those negative connotations came about because of the disdain for those who won fights in PvP by using their credit card. Since that is not what’s happening in GW2, those connotations do not apply to the situation you’re referring to, yet they are hardwired into people’s thoughts when they see P2W. Thus, using the term in discussing the situation means that all you will get is discussion about the use of the term.

This subject is talked about in ALL MMO’s i have played….sadly p2w is not in gw2, that slight increast in ascended vs exotic gear is nothing if you don’t know how to use your class or how to counter other classes. I still rekt ppl while solo roaming in exotic gear, just depends on player skill level, really.

Gear is not a factor in pvp, gear isnt a factor in open world pve, you can run dungeons AND RAIDS with exotics on….really the only time you really need ascended armor is doing fractals as you need agony resistance.

you can live off playing the game with only spending real money on buying heart of thorns. thats it, how is that p2w, sigh…..

Where is the pay 2 win element? none, i’m not white knighting gw2, but this is old news, tired of it.

Listen guys … if something in the game bothers you, P2W is one of the go to reasons, even if it doesn’t apply, make sense, whatever.

Obviously OP is unhappy that the value he associated with his legendary isn’t there (even though he must have known before hand it could be purchased outright on the TP before crafting it). Therefore, to add value to it or at least feel better that it’s not his fault for realizing it sooner, it’s easier to blame P2W, complain on the forums and argue with people who just don’t ‘get it’… makes lots of sense right? No? Oh you must be a noob or something to not see it. /s

BTW, if there is a P2W, point me to it … I like to win too and I got more money than time. Plus I don’t mind funding other people’s playtime. It’s not like this game would be fun solo.