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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

look at my part about reward structure before answering and looking like a [censored]

I did, and you clearly advertise reward system significantly better than at Teq (since you think Teq rewards suck). I actually agree with you about Teq rewards, so i’m all for it… as long as rewards everywhere else (yes, including most casual content you can think of) get buffed equally.

On the other hand, a definite no to raid rewards being visibly better than rewards from other content.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Fernling.1729

Fernling.1729

I think one of the most important things is for it to be instanced.

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

Guild Wars 2 raiding should be like guild jumping puzzles but on steroids, and even more stuff, and new mechanics, and fights that require more than berserker – puzzle solving, coordination, and set rewards for that dungeon only that drops from chests or bosses themselves.

OMFG !!!

I hope you’re not serious about this [censored] idea !
Also, you people really do not read, see the part about requiring damage, control, support !!!

This generation is doomed if all you do is skip read !

And maybe he was offering a counter idea to yours? That instead of raids like you’re suggesting, ANet should do raids like he suggests.

I don’t see why ANet can’t do both types. Combat oriented raids and Guild Puzzle type raids.

I was talking about the ludicrous idea of raid style jumping puzzles !

Combat oriented raid guild puzzles is a good idea, that other thing not so much :S

I think that’s what he meant. He did say “guild jumping puzzles” and the guild puzzles do have a fair amount of jumping in them. As well as combat in them.

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

look at my part about reward structure before answering and looking like a [censored]

I did, and you clearly advertise reward system significantly better than at Teq (since you think Teq rewards suck). I actually agree with you about Teq rewards, so i’m all for it… as long as rewards everywhere else (yes, including most casual content you can think of) get buffed equally.

On the other hand, a definite no to raid rewards being visibly better than rewards from other content.

And yes, rewards should be equal across all play areas. They can have cosmetic unique loot, but nothing of better stats or anything like that.

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Posted by: Farzo.8410

Farzo.8410

Guild Wars 2 raiding should be like guild jumping puzzles but on steroids, and even more stuff, and new mechanics, and fights that require more than berserker – puzzle solving, coordination, and set rewards for that dungeon only that drops from chests or bosses themselves.

OMFG !!!

I hope you’re not serious about this [censored] idea !
Also, you people really do not read, see the part about requiring damage, control, support !!!

This generation is doomed if all you do is skip read !

I just think ArenaNet should do their own style kind of raiding, and not go after what every other MMO does with their raiding.

A big puzzle solving raid could be fresh and interesting, mixed with combat using new mechanics and fights not always requiring set amount of damage or healing or tanking, but brains instead.

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

You make good points, let me explain my reasoning as to why these are needed.

  • Raid shards: reviving someone over and over is not skillful play, in the current system even if someone is fully dead they can be revived by burst revival (many players at the same time) in a raid environment of say 150 players this is easily accomplished regardless or mechanics. raid shards would put an unbreakable barrier and would stress keeping yourself alive, promoting more skillful play and knowing the encounters better. The decision to revive someone would be an intense one, do I revive this mediocre player or do I save my last shard for someone that truly deserves it ?

This is what I’m talking about well-designed encounters negating the need for artificially gating reviving.

For example, let’s say that the raid is a 25 person raid. Each encounter should have enough going on simultaneously to keep all 25 players busy. This is a flaw with open-world events; the actual mechanics don’t scale enough to keep everyone on their toes.

If someone goes down, it’s then up to members of the group to temporarily take up the slack to revive the downed person. Because of the players having to take up that slack, you can’t bomb-res.

If that person keeps going down, they’ll eventually end up defeated in which it’ll take longer to revive them, meaning more pressure on the group if they choose to revive said person.

Heck, not artificially limiting revival like you’re suggestion could open more build options focused around reviving – revive traits, skills, Runes of Mercy etc – at least until groups get a hold of the raid.

  • Raid attunement: This is to prevent what happens already in fractals where some of the mechanics at certain places are negated by simply swapping to the class that is better equipped to deal with whatever mechanic is in place, than swapping back to whatever you were playing. To me this is something that should be thought of before entering "hey we gonna need X class at X point to deal with X mechanic we better bring some of them along, instead of the usual " crap, X class would get us through here in seconds, ok let me swap to it brb"

The problem with this is you’re then bound by design to only design encounters suitable for the same group composition throughout – which isn’t necessarily bad, but it does limit what you can do if you can only play around with a certain number of mechanics.

You can’t suddenly change the required group comp but not allow players to change their profession. That’s like arming you with a cross-head screwdriver and telling you to take apart a laptop that’s got both cross-head and flat-head screws, but you’re not allowed to swap tools.

Not only that, but that sort of restriction pretty much disincentives players to work stuff out for themselves.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

Guild Wars 2 raiding should be like guild jumping puzzles but on steroids, and even more stuff, and new mechanics, and fights that require more than berserker – puzzle solving, coordination, and set rewards for that dungeon only that drops from chests or bosses themselves.

OMFG !!!

I hope you’re not serious about this [censored] idea !
Also, you people really do not read, see the part about requiring damage, control, support !!!

This generation is doomed if all you do is skip read !

I just think ArenaNet should do their own style kind of raiding, and not go after what every other MMO does with their raiding.

A big puzzle solving raid could be fresh and interesting, mixed with combat using new mechanics and fights not always requiring set amount of damage or healing or tanking, but brains instead.

Just because another MMO does raiding in X style, doesn’t mean GW2 can’t do raiding in X style as well.

I personally don’t see why both can’t exist at the same time.

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Posted by: Tashigi.3159

Tashigi.3159

Yes. It really does.
But not massive ones. Perhaps 10-15 man ones.
Also, the party UI needs to be re-touched as well, to accomodate this.

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

I am sure that I have seen commentary claiming that only a small fraction of an endgame raid-centric game’s player base actually participate in such.

I am not speaking against raids, but against the idea that it is a fact that the majority of players prefer raids.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

I am sure that I have seen commentary claiming that only a small fraction of an endgame raid-centric game’s player base actually participate in such.

I am not speaking against raids, but against the idea that it is a fact that the majority of players prefer raids.

hard-modes maybe… but almost entire pve system evolves around raids (directly or indirectly) in other games… and there is nothing to do in gw2 after you are done with LS… pve wise that is~

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Axelwarrior.9084

Axelwarrior.9084

We still have hope for HoT, right?

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

We still have hope for HoT, right?

i doubt it tbh, but given that they develop things years ahead we might start to ask for them now

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Zalladi.4652

Zalladi.4652

A few months before HoT was announced, ANet’s hiring page was looking for a raid designer, so as to whether that position was filled, or is being used for an entirely different purpose, only time can tell.

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Posted by: Gern.2978

Gern.2978

Yes, it very much needs instanced raids. World bosses do not, nor ever will cut it.

Hi, my name is Gern, and I’m an altoholic….

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Posted by: Zalladi.4652

Zalladi.4652

Yes, it very much needs instanced raids. World bosses do not, nor ever will cut it.

To some degree, Triple Trouble could be comparable to a raid, at least difficulty-wise, as it requires an organized collection of players to complete and not just some PuG groups of players. Similarly, it divides all of the players into 3 separate groups so there are fewer people at each wurm location, invoking the feeling that your role really matters, similar to how you would feel in a traditional raid.

I am very happy to accept instanced raids if Anet ever announce it or a similar form of hardcore content, I am merely grasping at straws to try and draw a comparison with world bosses and raids.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

i can’t deny the fact that majority of players do prefer pve/raids in particular.

I’m not sure that it’s a “fact” that most PvE players in Guild Wars 2 prefer raids.

Why would i say that? Here is the thing: this game would do better …if it had more population.

What makes you sure it doesn’t already have more population, given that there was a demand for an expansion pack, which doesn’t have a due date?

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Aenaos.8160

Aenaos.8160

i can’t deny the fact that majority of players do prefer pve/raids in particular.

I’m not sure that it’s a “fact” that most PvE players in Guild Wars 2 prefer raids.

Why would i say that? Here is the thing: this game would do better …if it had more population.

What makes you sure it doesn’t already have more population, given that there was a demand for an expansion pack, which doesn’t have a due date?

I believe the poster meant more as in more than the current
population.
But you got a valid point there.
Since there was “a demand”,whichever demand that may be,there could be
“more population” or there could be less or there could be just the same.
But then again why would the expansion have “a demand” if it ain’t already got
“more population”?

PS Did I win the internet?

-Win a pip,lose a pip,win a pip,lose a pip,lose a pip,
lose a pip,win 2 pips,lose a pip,lose a pip…………..-
-Go go Espartz.-

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

I would love to see 10 man or even 20 man raids here, just not super hard core progression ones like the top tiers of WoW or Rift. But regular ones with some unique rewards would be absolutely awesome.

Am not holding out any hopes though, jsut look at how they scrwed up WvW, the map and bits coming in HoT will not bring back all the players they lost, maybe a small fraction at most.

Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF

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Posted by: Deedrick.4372

Deedrick.4372

Even if they added in raids... they would never be done because the rewards would never merit the content just like the rest of everything in this game.

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

Do people really want to raid though, in sufficient numbers? The WoW forums have threads with people complaining about their raiding guilds falling apart due to lack of members and the constant need to recruit to get enough people just to keep the guild going. If WoW with its 7 million people and a game focused on doing dungeons and raiding has trouble, what makes you think that this far more casual game can get enough people to make the cost of designing raids cost effective. This game doesn’t even have a dungeon team any more, it’s so casual.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I think it’s a misnomer to think that most players even in WoW raid or consider themselves raiders. I’ve run every dungeon in this game, but I don’t particularly enjoy running dungeons. It’s okay. It’s not why I play these games.

I never really loved running dungeons in any MMO, much less raids.

To me, MMOs were always about the open world, because that’s what actually defines them. The open world. Raiding is instanced content, with no open world. You’re taking a genre defined, literally, by having a persistent world, and then redefining the end game by taking everyone out of it.

Guild Wars 2 makes the attempt to keep people in the open world, something most games really don’t do…or at least do well.

I’m not against raids, per se, but I’m absolutely how raids are implemented in most games. I guess we’ll see what happens.

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

I just did an open world boss. There were so many people on top of her I couldn’t even see her. Was just blindly dpsing.

Not sure how anybody sees that as a fun mechanic.

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Posted by: Altair.8402

Altair.8402

+1 to raids.

Not sure how they’ll handle progression though, as I doubt they’ll add some sort of gear treadmill. Raid-only cosmetic gear?

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Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Here is the thread that likely formed a lot of design ideas for the “Challenging Group Content” that has yet to be revealed.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/first

You might see something raid-like with a GW2 twist sooner than you think.

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Posted by: Berelious.3290

Berelious.3290

+1 to raids.

Not sure how they’ll handle progression though, as I doubt they’ll add some sort of gear treadmill. Raid-only cosmetic gear?

Cosmetic gear, or possibly exclusive ascended gear, like with Teq and TT.

Corwin Grimjaw: Guardian (80)
Yak’s Bend Server
Crimethink [ct]

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Posted by: Narrrz.7532

Narrrz.7532

+1 to raids.

Not sure how they’ll handle progression though, as I doubt they’ll add some sort of gear treadmill. Raid-only cosmetic gear?

even just an extra daily/weekly shot at an ascended box/new material source/like you said, more unique skins will all motivate people to participate.

in significant numbers? i can’t even guess

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Posted by: moiraine.2753

moiraine.2753

+1 from me for raids.They are the life of the MMOs.And don’t understand me wrong.I don’t want any more gear grind in GW2.Ascended is more than enough.What raids could bring on the table is harde mode.Which GW2 is lacking.

Do people really want to raid though, in sufficient numbers? The WoW forums have threads with people complaining about their raiding guilds falling apart due to lack of members and the constant need to recruit to get enough people just to keep the guild going. If WoW with its 7 million people and a game focused on doing dungeons and raiding has trouble, what makes you think that this far more casual game can get enough people to make the cost of designing raids cost effective. This game doesn’t even have a dungeon team any more, it’s so casual.

Their problem is not with the raids exactly.They complain about the Mythic dificulty.For them is hard to sustain a 20 man raiding group.But if you look at Rift and WS their playerbase actually prefers that mode.
But still if you look at WoW they have 4 difficulties which supports the idea that more of the PvE playerbase actully prefers to have raids(LFR,normal.heroic,mythic).

Yes, it very much needs instanced raids. World bosses do not, nor ever will cut it.

To some degree, Triple Trouble could be comparable to a raid, at least difficulty-wise, as it requires an organized collection of players to complete and not just some PuG groups of players. Similarly, it divides all of the players into 3 separate groups so there are fewer people at each wurm location, invoking the feeling that your role really matters, similar to how you would feel in a traditional raid.

I am very happy to accept instanced raids if Anet ever announce it or a similar form of hardcore content, I am merely grasping at straws to try and draw a comparison with world bosses and raids.

I agree with you that to some degree TT is a raid boss.Right now i can split GW2 world bosses on 3 categorries(I will talk with WoW terms):

  • LFR
  • Flex(Tequatl)
  • Heroic(TT)

What is the problem with TT is that it requires a lot of people.Anet can’t make propper difficulty when there is enormous group + open world.Why blizzard removed the split between 10 and 25 man difficulty and created a 20 man(Mythic) mode?Because it is easier to balance.

If GW2 adds raids they have to be a fixed number and not to big one(10 or 15 maximum).Also i preffer smaller raids because they are more sociable.Look at WoW and WS.They both have problems.WS is struggling with their 40 man raids.More of their guilds are doing 20 content.
And WoW is struggling with Mythic raids.Because it is easier for a 25 man guild to switch to a 20 man raid difficulty(those guilds were less than 10 man guilds),than a 10 man guild to recruit enough members.

If Anet is smart they will creat a 15 man raid size.It is small enough for easy recruitment.It is bigger than 10 man but still small enough for people to sociallise.
Also when you have fixed size unlike TT it is a lot easier to balance things.WoW proved that theory already.

TxS – Tequatl Slayer Alliance (EU)

(edited by moiraine.2753)

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Do people really want to raid though, in sufficient numbers? The WoW forums have threads with people complaining about their raiding guilds falling apart due to lack of members and the constant need to recruit to get enough people just to keep the guild going. If WoW with its 7 million people and a game focused on doing dungeons and raiding has trouble, what makes you think that this far more casual game can get enough people to make the cost of designing raids cost effective. This game doesn’t even have a dungeon team any more, it’s so casual.

Their problem is not with the raids exactly.They complain about the Mythic dificulty.For them is hard to sustain a 20 man raiding group.But if you look at Rift and WS their playerbase actually prefers that mode.
But still if you look at WoW they have 4 difficulties which supports the idea that more of the PvE playerbase actully prefers to have raids(LFR,normal.heroic,mythic).

Yes, it very much needs instanced raids. World bosses do not, nor ever will cut it.

To some degree, Triple Trouble could be comparable to a raid, at least difficulty-wise, as it requires an organized collection of players to complete and not just some PuG groups of players. Similarly, it divides all of the players into 3 separate groups so there are fewer people at each wurm location, invoking the feeling that your role really matters, similar to how you would feel in a traditional raid.

I am very happy to accept instanced raids if Anet ever announce it or a similar form of hardcore content, I am merely grasping at straws to try and draw a comparison with world bosses and raids.

I agree with you that to some degree TT is a raid boss.Right now i can split GW2 world bosses on 3 categorries(I will talk with WoW terms):

  • LFR
  • Flex(Tequatl)
  • Heroic(TT)

What is the problem with TT is that it requires a lot of people.Anet can’t make propper difficulty when there is enormous group + open world.Why blizzard removed the split between 10 and 25 man difficulty and created a 20 man(Mythic) mode?Because it is easier to balance.

If GW2 adds raids they have to be a fixed number and not to big one(10 or 15 maximum).Also i preffer smaller raids because they are more sociable.Look at WoW and WS.They both have problems.WS is struggling with their 40 man raids.More of their guilds are doing 20 content.
And WoW is struggling with Mythic raids.Because it is easier for a 25 man guild to switch to a 20 man raid difficulty(those guilds were less than 10 man guilds),than a 10 man guild to recruit enough members.

If Anet is smart they will creat a 15 man raid size.It is small enough for easy recruitment.It is bigger than 10 man but still small enough for people to sociallise.
Also when you have fixed size unlike TT it is a lot easier to balance things.WoW proved that theory already.

I’m not sure WoW proved that theory. They certainly proved it for a trinity game, which Guild Wars 2 is not. And the programming requirements might be completely different.

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Posted by: Gern.2978

Gern.2978

I just did an open world boss. There were so many people on top of her I couldn’t even see her. Was just blindly dpsing.

Not sure how anybody sees that as a fun mechanic.

It’s not, that’s why world bosses are not an acceptable alternative to raids. Yes, triple trouble is as close as a world boss can get in that it requires at least a small bit of organization. But that’s just it, a small bit. You don’t have to be in teamspeak to communicate, no one has very specific roles that they have to stick to or the entire event fails. You can just show up, follow any random group, change which group you follow at any time, auto-attack everything and still get your loot.

Hi, my name is Gern, and I’m an altoholic….

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Posted by: Swoo.5079

Swoo.5079

Challenging content that requires builds other than zerker, stack buffs, max dps and timely dodge?

Sure.

Raids a la WoW, Rift, WildStar (the hardcore 40 man raid game every hardcore gamer out there wanted)?

No.

Ascended items are Anet biggest mistake and a kneejerk reaction.

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Posted by: Beldin.5498

Beldin.5498

First this for some official numbers :
http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

And then : Wildstar

Oh and even Everquest Next is planned without raids, and Everquest was the game
that startet with the whole bullkitten .. and maybe the main reason why you have it
in WoW and why people thing its so great, even if maybe it would have been also
as successfull without raids.

Also you would never be able to design raids proper in a game where some
people are able to solo things where often groups of 5 have big problems.

The whole numbers game of uncoming damage vs. healing simply doesn’t
work here the same as in Trinity games .. not until the disable the dodge-roll
for that content at least.

EVERY MMO is awesome until it is released then its unfinished. A month after release it just sucks.
Best MMOs are the ones that never make it. Therefore Stargate Online wins.

(edited by Beldin.5498)

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Posted by: Ardenwolfe.8590

Ardenwolfe.8590

No raids, thank you. Zerging is coming with the expansion anyway.

Gone to Reddit.

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Posted by: Killface.1896

Killface.1896

A good raid that have normal and hard mode would be great and all could enjoy that the hardcore and casuals

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Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

Some articles of interest.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/24/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-1/
“It’s too expensive in terms of resources
When WildStar announced that it was scaling its biggest raid down from 40 people to 20, commenter Belladonna did some math. The short version is that every single person who was playing the raid in its 40-person incarnation had personally cost $2,500 based on a handful of reasonable assumptions, which would require fourteen straight years of subscribing for Carbine to even break even on the money that the raid cost to develop. It’s sort of a weak investment.

There’s a reason World of Warcraft has increasingly made it easier and easier for players to get into a raid, even as it keeps going back and forth on reward structures (which is a different topic we’ll discuss further on). Spending a huge amount of time and resources on content that most players won’t see is foolish. But even in WoW, you can see how much raids cost simply by repeated dev use of the phrase, "It’ll cost another raid tier."
Want more Garrison options? Well, that’ll cost another raid tier. More five-person dungeons? Would cost another raid tier. I seem to recall that the stated reason for not having any sort of content added to the game in the year-plus gap between the end of Mists of Pandaria and the long-delayed launch of Warlords of Draenor was that taking time to develop something would cost another raid tier, which looks particularly odd when you remember that the existing raid tier was boring players out of their minds after a year of nothing else.

Obviously, raid tiers are not really fully fungible currencies, but that’s not the point. The sentiment is that all the development time that would go into developing something else has to go into adding another raid tier. There has to be a steady drip of new raids, something new for the raiding side to stay invested in. Put even more simply: Those are the players who need their content need sated, and everyone else needs to wait for the scraps.

There are plenty of data to be unpacked in this post when it comes to raiding in World of Warcraft, some of it outdated, but at the height of the game’s popularity (Wrath of the Lich King), it still makes a pretty clear argument that raiders made up about 10% of the population. "

http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/25/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-2/

http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/26/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-3/

As a comment, if raiders make up about 10% of the players in WoW, what percent do you think they are in a game like Guild Wars 2? This is a game that advertised for and attracted casual players. The answer, much less than 10%. So why should ANet make content that caters to such a small part of the population. Content that the majority of the population won’t do.

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

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Posted by: Gern.2978

Gern.2978

Everyone keeps throwing around the 40 man number, and then using it’s unreasonability as proof that we don’t need GW2 raids. But what supporter of raids said anything about 40 mans? 40 man raids are terrible. They are hard to get enough people to complete, maintain that number throughout the raid (cause people are going to rage-quit) and even harder to organize even when everything goes right.

The vast number of we who are asking for raids, are asking for 10 man raids at the least, 25 man at the very maximum. Those are the perfect size raids in any mmo; you don’t need any more people than 25, and 10 is the best size.

Hi, my name is Gern, and I’m an altoholic….

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Posted by: Joanna.3541

Joanna.3541

I don’t care whether or not they add in Guild Puzzle type raids (it does sound cool though) but I could DEFINITELY go for legit, end-game raids. One of the glaring voids I need filled in this game is end-game content. I’m not talking Arah or the other vanilla dungeons either.

I miss my GW1 Elite Kurzick mesmer armor.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

You guys forget few things:
- nobody asked for 40 man raids, 10-15 would be more than enough
- problem with wow raids is gear grind, people would love to do them but not everyone is willing to grind dungeons for 2-3 months before they can even do first boss in raid; this is obviously not issue in gw2
- gw2 has no end game content, it simply doesn’t and small raids could be good solution for it; world bosses is just too much reliance on servers, 100+ pugs, lags and what not; raids can be coordinated, done at own paces, done with small guilds even, no reliance on full maps etc.

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>