Guild Wars 2

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Except they didn’t, as you say, “increase the stats.” Legendaries are still better. So you’re pretty much just flat-out wrong and that’s not really a matter of opinion, but fact.

You know, you are a very kitteny troll. You aren’t fooling anyone.

Surbrus.6942:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Except they didn’t, as you say, “increase the stats.” Legendaries are still better. So you’re pretty much just flat-out wrong and that’s not really a matter of opinion, but fact.

You know, you are a very kitteny troll. You aren’t fooling anyone.

Fooling anyone? “Fooling” implies that I’m being dishonest somehow. If I am, I’d like hear how.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Xenesis.6389:

You can expand the content without needing to increase the stats.
You can provide new equipment without needing to increase stats.
You can provide new equipment with new stat combinations without needing to increase stats.

Except they didn’t, as you say, “increase the stats.” Legendaries are still better. So you’re pretty much just flat-out wrong and that’s not really a matter of opinion, but fact.

Actually, I think you’re the one who’s got it wrong.

As I understand it, as far as attributes go, Legendary items were on par with Exotic items. Legendary items were strictly an aesthetic achievement. Performance-wise, Exotic items were at the cap.

Now Ascended gear represents a new cap, and Legendary items were adjusted upward to be on par with them.

In fact, wasn’t this stated outright in a developer post? (looks)

Ah yes, here it is…

“Legendary items were always intended to be on par with other “best-in-slot” items. So fear not, all existing Legendary weapons, which are currently on par with Exotics, will be upgraded to be on par with Ascended weapons at the same time that we add Ascended weapons to the game. " — Linsey Murdock

So, yes, it seems they did increase the stats and added a tier. The ‘best-in-slot’ used to be Exotic/Legendary. Now it’ll be Ascended/Legendary.

Warkupo.1025:

sequential nature

There was no sequential nature before.
You could do anything at all and get to 80.

There is a sequence now – grinding Fractals for tokens, to get gear and infusions.
Some people like this, others don’t.

• #1, legendaries had identical stats to Exotic last week.
• #2, the Ascended rings alone which is an item that normally only has 1-2 point difference going from Masterworks to Rares to Exotics, is actually 5 points stronger than an exotic. (not including the infusion which can add even more base stats)
• #3, they aren’t done yet! They’re not just adding Ascended items, they’ve gone so far as to deny in a German interview that this is the last l00t tier they’ll be adding b/c they don’t want to be seen as lying about it the next time they add another one.

New content doesn’t inevitably mean better gear. GW1 released two massive campaigns and one expansion after it’s initial launch and it did it without adding new gear.

The people saying those complaining about nothing to do are now complaining about not wanting to gear grind all over again, I’d like them to quote the same people saying both things. I think you’ll find most of them are different people.

The core problem you present (there is nothing to do at 80 once you have exotics) was not a problem for so many people on this forum. I had full exotics and I was active every single day. I’ve been far less active since all my work was revealed to be redundant and devalued.

Honestly, every issue you raise in your post has been covered hundred of times in other threads. Every single question you ask has been answered in detail, with quotes from developers, the head of ArenaNet, blog articles etc. This has all been covered in great detail already. Maybe you should read those threads instead of starting new ones.

Hydrophidian.4319:

Actually, I think you’re the one who’s got it wrong.

As I understand it, as far as attributes go, Legendary items were on par with Exotic items. Legendary items were strictly an aesthetic achievement. Performance-wise, Exotic items were at the cap.

But Legendary weapons can be fitted with Superior Sigils, which have stats and grant special abilities that Ascended items can’t even get, and in fact can’t even come close to matching. So can exotics, actually, for that matter. Ironically, you’re actually sacrificing the ability to get the benefits of Superior Sigils when you use Ascended gear, with “Infusions” being the only customisation, and as far as we’ve seen, Infusions are pretty much comparable to tier 1 jewels. Big whoop.

Now Ascended gear represents a new cap, and Legendary items were adjusted upward to be on par with them.

Great, thank you for proving that there is no gear treadmill. Existing gear is improved to better match new gear. Isn’t that exactly what all the complainers would wish for in the first place?

Shiren.9532:

New content doesn’t inevitably mean better gear. GW1 released two massive campaigns and one expansion after it’s initial launch and it did it without adding new gear.

Not true actually. They added inscribed weapons in Guild Wars 1 which in fact basically obsoleted all the weapons that existed before and relegating them to “old-school”. And even before that, if I’m not mistaken, just a few months into the game’s life they added the new “uniques” tier which dropped in a sort of dungeon. (sound familiar?) And while there was some complaining, it was pretty kitten tame. Hell, compared to the nonsense over this, Katrina was tame.

From what I saw infusion was just agony defense so far. So the question comes down to do you want the extra stat or the rune/sigil effects. Honestly if I wasn’t running fractal I would rather have rune/sigil effects. I don’t see a ascended item that can give me an extra 30% MF or 250 precision. Honestly people will just cry about everything.

most of us never complained about nothing to do at level 80. my entire guild, all employed irl, had no problem with the game.

You are implying that everyone must future proof themselves by getting full legendary gear, if they do not wish to grind.

I say again, are a terrible troll.

Shaikhob.2863:

I don’t see a ascended item that can give me an extra 30% MF or 250 precision.

Those stats you speak of are unheard of at the exotic level as well for single items.

Almost all Sigils are very situational. (or requiring consecutive mob kills without being downed, making them useless in most dungeons and WvW).

Rune are not situational, but we haven’t seen the extent to which Infusions will change the game. Since it’s the next gear tier, it’s a safe bet that infusions will eventually make specialized Runes completely obsolete at these situational tasks that players will “farm” with Ascended gear …Not to mention, that the “Upgrade” slot stats you would normally get on all exotics, are built right into Ascended items meaning you don’t need to buy Superior Runes because those stats are already built right in. You just haven’t realized it yet, Elricht, because you haven’t seen a true piece of Ascended Armor yet.

I don’t think you’re trolling on purpose, I just think it’s obvious that you’re confused and don’t understand what the Article actually said.

Surbrus.6942:

You are implying that everyone must future proof themselves by getting full legendary gear, if they do not wish to grind.

I say again, are a terrible troll.

Shaikhob.2863:

I don’t see a ascended item that can give me an extra 30% MF or 250 precision.

Those stats you speak of are unheard of at the exotic level as well for single items.

You sir do not play a level 80 then or don’t pay attention to runes and sigils.

That’s actually the exact wrong way around. Because it’s an MMO, therefore it is stagnant. There’s just no human way to push out content at anywhere near the same speed at which it will be devoured, so in a real sense, a lot of the world will be pretty much the same for long periods of time.

GW2 has its own unique approaches to tackling this issue, but the traditional EQ/WoW model is to put in gear treadmills at max level. What the treadmill does, from a design perspective, is allow you to get the maximum amount of use out of any content you create by essentially forcing the players to run it repeatedly. It’s a sort of psychological trick; it’s not that you’re doing anything new each time, because you’re not, they just put a tiny reward at the end of each repetition so you’ll put up with it. There’s not more content, just more to do, if you follow the distinction I’m making.

However, those games had every reason to use that trick because they had/have subscriptions, it’s either justify the player logging on each day/week or lose the subs. GW1 and 2 went without subscriptions for the specific purpose of not having that temptation there for them. Ideally, Anet didn’t need to make treadmills because they don’t make more money that way, they don’t profit from addicts.

You’re misunderstanding the complaint; what’s new to do is the fractal dungeon itself. That’s new, exciting content. A resistance gear grind alongside it is not, it’s busywork. Adding the ascended gear and the infusion grind does not give us more fun to have, it gives us more work to do.

Warkupo.1025:

Crater.1625:

Warkupo.1025:

I can just as easily say that about having to do content to aquire new gear to do new content. It’s literally the exact same thing as leveling up, except a hell of a lot easier to balance.

Yes, exactly. We would like the tutorial to stop at some point, preferably sooner rather than later, so that we can actually play the game part of the game, where you’re not trying to perpetually make some numbers go up.

Which part of the game is this for you? If it’s not level 1-80 and its’ not endgame what part are you playing exactly?

I like the endgame. Endgame doesn’t start until you are maxed out and stop getting more powerful (hint: “end”).

Once you’re maxed out, the game can’t give you any more artificial motivation to play. Either you’re playing purely because the game is fun, or you don’t play at all.

If a game can’t respect my intelligence enough to stop making me run on a treadmill just to get back to exactly the point I started at (ie: 100% maxed out), and if that game doesn’t believe that its content is good enough that I should be playing it for fun and only for fun, then I don’t want to play that game.

It would be nice if Anet could make a few more videos talking about their game and its direction / new content.

I think it would be interesting to see.

ilr.9675:

…Not to mention, that the “Upgrade” slot stats you would normally get on all exotics, are built right into Ascended items meaning you don’t need to buy Superior Runes because those stats are already built right in. You just haven’t realized it yet, Elricht, because you haven’t seen a true piece of Ascended Armor yet.

I think the point should probably be raised here that neither have you. And since you’re the one complaining, the fact that we haven’t seen a true piece of Ascended armor yet largely makes your stance on the issue appear irrational. Not mine.

I don’t think you’re trolling on purpose, I just think it’s obvious that you’re confused and don’t understand what the Article actually said.

It wasn’t that complicated. Ascended items are better than exotics, and Legendaries are being buffed to prevent them from being inferior to Ascended. What I truly don’t understand, however, is what peoples’ issue with that is.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

But Legendary weapons can be fitted with Superior Sigils, which have stats and grant special abilities that Ascended items can’t even get, and in fact can’t even come close to matching. So can exotics, actually, for that matter. Ironically, you’re actually sacrificing the ability to get the benefits of Superior Sigils when you use Ascended gear, with “Infusions” being the only customisation, and as far as we’ve seen, Infusions are pretty much comparable to tier 1 jewels. Big whoop.

The stated design goal is that Legendary items will remain “on par” with the “best in slot” items, which are now represented by the Ascended category. I have no reason to believe that will not be the case, even if it doesn’t currently appear to be, as you seem to be asserting.

The fact remains that a new tier has been added.

Great, thank you for proving that there is no gear treadmill.

Nothing of the sort has been proven.

Existing gear is improved to better match new gear. Isn’t that exactly what all the complainers would wish for in the first place?

No, not really. Existing aesthetic achievements were lifted to be “on par” with a new “best in slot” performance tier. The process to obtain strictly “best in slot” gear has been lengthened (considerably, by some estimations).

If a person wants only “best in slot” gear and doesn’t care about Legendary items, it will now take them much longer to obtain that gear than it did prior to the introduction of the Ascended tier.

Obtaining Legendary items was always meant to be a long process. And the reason why that was okay in the eyes of many was that they were an aesthetic achievement only. In fact, according to developer commentary, the addition of this new tier was introduced, in part, to “fill the gap” between obtaining Exotic gear and gaining Legendary versions of those same items.

Personally, I don’t have much interest in Legendary items. I did want to obtain “best in slot” gear. Now it looks as though I won’t be doing that, at least not for a very, very long while. Which, again, isn’t a problem for me as long as it doesn’t lock me out of the bulk of future content.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Not true actually. They added inscribed weapons in Guild Wars 1 which in fact basically obsoleted all the weapons that existed before and relegating them to “old-school”. And even before that, if I’m not mistaken, just a few months into the game’s life they added the new “uniques” tier which dropped in a sort of dungeon. (sound familiar?) And while there was some complaining, it was pretty kitten tame. Hell, compared to the nonsense over this, Katrina was tame.

This reads as though you never actually played Guild Wars 1, and only heard about the changes made throughout the game’s life via a cursory glance at Wikipedia, or some second-hand information that wasn’t accurate enough to be truthful.

Inscribed weapons never made any weapons “obsolete”. The Inscriptions were exactly identical to the inherent properties that weapons had at launch. Not a single piece of gear was made obsolete. The only difference was that Inscriptions could be overwritten – but you could only overwrite them with other inscriptions, all of which were identical to weapon bonuses from the earlier weapons. (I’ve said it a number of times in the last few days, but my first/main character in Guild Wars 1, today, right now, in November of 2012, is holding a weapon that I found before the game even technically launched, during the 24 hour pre-order headstart, and that weapon is exactly as powerful as the absolute best weapons that you can get in the game today, three expansions and seven and a half years later.)

Similarly, “Unique” weapons were cosmetic only. Statistically, they were exactly equal to weapons that already existed in the game – they just had a unique skin, and couldn’t be customized.

Shaikhob.2863:

You sir do not play a level 80 then or don’t pay attention to runes and sigils.

Then oh wise one that by the grace of god plays a level 80, do show us peasants what glorious item gives 30% magic find or 250 precision. The best Magic Find item I have been able to procure is some shoddy exotic Sigil that gives no more than 15%, to which I must first collect 25 charges. Do grace us with your amazing knowledge of these magical items.

On a more serious note, I believe that you are mixing up rune sets with individual runes, and then bringing this flawed comparison to contrast Exotics with Ascended… in which case you are completely wrong because you are equating 6 particular items working together with one single item. And yes, Ascended gear isn’t as over powered as it six times as powerful as exotics… it is a substantial and unneeded increase in stats yes, but it is not 600% more powerful.

Crater.1625:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Not true actually. They added inscribed weapons in Guild Wars 1 which in fact basically obsoleted all the weapons that existed before and relegating them to “old-school”. And even before that, if I’m not mistaken, just a few months into the game’s life they added the new “uniques” tier which dropped in a sort of dungeon. (sound familiar?) And while there was some complaining, it was pretty kitten tame. Hell, compared to the nonsense over this, Katrina was tame.

This reads as though you never actually played Guild Wars 1, and only heard about the changes made throughout the game’s life via a cursory glance at Wikipedia, or some second-hand information that wasn’t accurate enough to be truthful.

Inscribed weapons never made any weapons “obsolete”. The Inscriptions were exactly identical to the inherent properties that weapons had at launch. Not a single piece of gear was made obsolete. The only difference was that Inscriptions could be overwritten – but you could only overwrite them with other inscriptions, all of which were identical to weapon bonuses from the earlier weapons. (I’ve said it a number of times in the last few days, but my first/main character in Guild Wars 1, today, right now, in November of 2012, is holding a weapon that I found before the game even technically launched, during the 24 hour pre-order headstart, and that weapon is exactly as powerful as the absolute best weapons that you can get in the game today, three expansions and seven and a half years later.)

lmao, please. How was the ability to change the stats of your weapon not inherently superior to being stuck with whatever stats a weapon drops with? It’s just a matter of simple calculation. “Old-school” items, to be truly max stats, had to drop not only with a 9 requirement, but also with perfect stats. Inscribed items didn’t. You could find a 9 requirement sword with crap stats, then just buy an inscription off someone or salvage one to make it however you wanted. You could also change it at any time, particularly with inscriptions costing only a platinum or two, to suit your build. Something you basically needed a full set of four different “old-school” weapons to do.

Similarly, “Unique” weapons were cosmetic only. Statistically, they were exactly equal to weapons that already existed in the game – they just had a unique skin, and couldn’t be customized.

It’s really quite irrelevant, because of the fact that stats mattered so much more in Guild Wars 1 than they do in Guild Wars 2. If you had a crappy sword you did 5 damage. If you had a max-stat sword you did 90 (let’s just say). Your gear was your stats, and then your attributes sometimes boosted one or two of those stats by a small percentage.

In Guild Wars 2 we have a completely different system. Your stats are innate to your character and are only influenced by your gear to a small degree, basically the opposite of Guild Wars. Attribute points and level are now the main factors in stats. If your power is already at 500, for instance, who really cares if a sword gives you +100 power or +110? Great, it will take you only 99 hits to do the same damage that would take 100 hits with the other one. Like that really matters or has any practical significance.

HP is now measured in thousands and not tens. Players no longer press space bar and are guaranteed hits, but must position actively and dodge. Avoiding damage is now a large part of the game and is achieved 90% through skill and 10% through skill*s*; as opposed to Guild Wars 1’s 90% through skill*s* and 10% through skill. In other words, Guild Wars 2 can actually afford to have slight statistical differences between weapon tiers because the way the gameplay works is so fundamentally different from how it worked in Guild Wars 1.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

[stats don’t matter]

And you treadmill grinders call us competitive people casual…

It’s not an MMO, it’s a hamster wheel simulator.

Surbrus.6942:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

[stats don’t matter]

And you treadmill grinders call us competitive people casual…

Whatever the hell a treadmill grinder is, I’m not one of them. 1) because as far as MMOs go I’ve only played Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2, and 2) because there is no treadmill in either.

Selon.7056:

Here is the problem – this is a MMO. The world does not, and will not stay stagnant. You guys can’t have it both ways. You can’t have a game where you get the best gear and then there is nothing to go to from there AND a game that continues to expand on itself by creating new content and, inevitably, gear.

Wrong. A MMO can be non stagnant without turning into Progess Quest. GW1 managed it right. Of course there was a couple items introduced that were impossible to get before, mainly a few stat combinations but even so, it was just that, not items that plainly obsolete your current gear.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

lmao, please. […] Something you basically needed a full set of four different “old-school” weapons to do.

None of this made early equipment obsolete, because the max stats never changed.

What it did, as you have so carefully noted, is reduce the amount of grind needed to attain a weapon with those max stats.
Which is the exact opposite of what people take issue with in Guild Wars 2. If this patch had, instead of Ascended weapons, introduced vendor equipment that looked like trash, but had level 80 Exotic stats and cost 5 silver, do you think the backlash would be even 10% of what you’re seeing right now?
If they made Exotics easier to get, while still making them the top-quality gear in the game, there would be a few people upset that their next-to-nothing profits from Weaponsmithing, Jewelcraft, etc were now just nothing profits, but most people have already come to terms with the idea that crafting exists as a speedbump on the road to getting a Legendary, and to speedlevel a character to 80, and there would be more people happy to not have to grind as much to get Exotics than people who want crafting to really mean something.

(Lest I come across as being needlessly harsh to the poor crafters, I should also point out that introducing Ascended gear as the new top-quality without letting the crafting professions actually make that gear does almost just as much to eliminate their relevance.)

It’s really quite irrelevant,[…] In other words, Guild Wars 2 can actually afford to have slight statistical differences between weapon tiers because the way the gameplay works is so fundamentally different from how it worked in Guild Wars 1.

First: In what universe do you think that the difference between a ‘crappy’ weapon and a maxed weapon in Guild Wars 1 was any more pronounced than between a Rare and an Exotic in Guild Wars 2?
A sword being ‘crappy’ in Guild Wars 1 meant that it would still deal 15-22 base damage, and still have a +20% damage bonus from Customization, only the Inscription on it would be +12-13% damage when HP is above 50% instead of +15%, and it would give 24 HP instead of 30. The only way to have a weapon worse than that would be to actively avoid picking up any items, or to intentionally use only weapons that dropped when you were level 10, or something.

If I walk around in Queensdale in Guild Wars 2 on my level 80 character, then equip the first level 8 sword that drops, I’m going to be just as ineffective as I would be if I pulled that kind of nonsense in Guild Wars 1.

More importantly, getting a maxed-out weapon in Guild Wars 1 required next to no effort at all. If you stood in Kamadan for five minutes looking for a good price, you would have enough money to buy a perfect weapon by the time you were a high enough level to be able to reach the 9 attribute requirement.
And if you were too cheap, lazy, or (somehow) poor for that, you could walk into any random Explorable area, and spend 15 minutes collecting 5 Trophies to bring to a Trader, who would hand you a shiny new weapon with maxed base stats and Inscription, meaning that all you had to do was spend a pittance for the prefix and suffix upgrades.

Low-end Exotics are marginally harder to get in Guild Wars 2, and the requirement to have between two and six weapons (or four, if you ignore Underwater weapons) really borders on becoming a significant grind, but it’s still very much within the ‘acceptable’ range. But Ascended weapons? Hell no, that’s not acceptable.

Regarding the stuff about how it’s “Okay” to have discrepancies and imbalances in Guild Wars 2, it’s actually just flat out wrong that it just doesn’t matter, but I’m not going to engage with that part of the argument, because that’s leapfrogging the first problem with your argument: You have to do more than apologize for it. It’s not enough for you to explain “why it’s not so bad”. You have to explain why it’s good for the game to do it that way.
One particularly bad argument to be made is that Ascended equipment is good because it gives people who: 1) Can’t maintain interest in the game without a grind, 2) Refuse to use more than one character, 3) Refuse to use more than one build on that character, and 4) Refuse to use any Exotic weapons other than the absolute cheapest, worst looking equipment available, something to grind for.

Warkupo.1025:

Again I ask, why the play the game? Why not just… I guess walk around the map until you are bored of that and then go do something else?

I’m sorry, I just don’t follow any of the thought processes here.

I like the idea that my main character is safely decked in gear that will be good for whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it.

And with the newly found free time of NOT HAVING TO SPEND IT GRINDING UPGRADES, you could, for example, level an alt. Sample the way other classes work.

Or.

Maybe work towards your legendary weapon.

Or.

Fart around knowing your time isn’t “wasted”.

With this model, the game demands that you spend your time on your main grinding gear.

So a game evolution is only stats evolution? i think someone on this forum lost something about what is a “challenge”! And what is evolution.

The sistem before this patch was wonderful, but incomplete, and thats way a lot of us were still in play, even:

lack of endgame content (and this is not LACK OF GEAR PROGRESSION)
classes bugged
classed unbalanced.

We known what Anet team can do… Gw1 was a success even without locusts, and we were hoping they was working around the 3 points a marked before, this is the method to keep you fanbase.
A really wise man said something like:
“Make games for your fans, and not for the players you hope to have”

And there are many ways to make a game not stagnat, without increase the stats number, and letteraly destroy:

1)The hope of the ones that followed you for years (and remember that GW, is on the top 10 of the most selled games, so its not a minor fanbase, i think that some old player dont buy the game at launch because they were waiting some month, and then buy a game, debugged, balanced and improved in Old Anet style)

2)The balance of the game and the communuty reaction, more tier and more stats gap you get, and more the Players tend to classify the others only for the gear they use, instead of the real ability of the player.

Increase the numbers o the equipment is definitely not progression, but is simply give to players a LOOP to do.

That’s the thing, there is plenty to do at cap.

Generalization: It’s the themepark EQ/WoW converts that are complaining that there isn’t any progression familiar to them ie power creep cravers, content locust, gear grinders and HC raiders.

Generalization: It’s the sandbox type/skill based crowd that dig lateral progression ie the Guild Wars crowd that are being vocal currently about what was told to them and then hit with the bait and switch or atleast the first step in a baait and switch, more to come no doubt.

I personally fit into both crowds as I don’t mind the illusion of progression via gearr chasing. However, I didn’t buy this game to do that. I bought this game for: first and foremost because I was a huge fan of GW1, WvW second (huge DAOC fan) and pve last.
The Guild Wars brand screams to me pvp. Even the company’s name scream pvp to me, Arena-net c’mon.

Like I said though, gear progression is an illusion. You rock the next tier of gear to keep you on par with the next tier of enemy who had its stats increased also. The inherent problem with that formula though is gap creation. Where this is going to rear it’s ugly head is in WvW in this particular game especially once more tiers are introduced. All for what? To see bigger numbers?

My suggestion,
streamline WvW similar to sPvP with everyone using capped gear/max stat gear. However instead of glory paying for chest to get skins, allow a vendor to save skins you find in pve similar to how one can use exotic versions of heritage pvp gear at the HOM. Continue to drop badges for WvW exclusive stuff, but once you buy it save the skin for WvW. If you want to wear it in pve only the original item bought can be used for that whether it be for transmutation onto pve specific gear.

The problem with this sorta thing or even power creep for that matter is that it destroys the middle ground in this game, which WvW is…its supposed to be a version of openworld pvp.

My problem with power creep and gear chasing in this particual title is that I was sold on the idea that I could have this as the alternative to all the other themeparks I have played or am playing or are currently atleast subbed to. If it’s going to go that route, why not play the ones who do it better?

My second problem isn’t having a next slightly/more than slightly better tier of gear, it’s not even that point blank period a beginning to treadmill running, blatant content gating and the none interaction with the community about said concerns (even though it doesn’t quite sit well with me), it’s the fact that this new resist gear isn’t using what every other piece of gear in this game uses, Runes/Sigils and such. Seems totally out of left field and out of place.

what, so next time around, “We just introduced Panic Gear”. Instead of using current upgrades it uses a whole me type of inscriptions called shark repellants To defend yourself from a new type of monster mechanic Shark bite.

Crater.1625:

Warkupo.1025:

Crater.1625:

Warkupo.1025:

I can just as easily say that about having to do content to aquire new gear to do new content. It’s literally the exact same thing as leveling up, except a hell of a lot easier to balance.

Yes, exactly. We would like the tutorial to stop at some point, preferably sooner rather than later, so that we can actually play the game part of the game, where you’re not trying to perpetually make some numbers go up.

Which part of the game is this for you? If it’s not level 1-80 and its’ not endgame what part are you playing exactly?

I like the endgame. Endgame doesn’t start until you are maxed out and stop getting more powerful (hint: “end”).

Once you’re maxed out, the game can’t give you any more artificial motivation to play. Either you’re playing purely because the game is fun, or you don’t play at all.

If a game can’t respect my intelligence enough to stop making me run on a treadmill just to get back to exactly the point I started at (ie: 100% maxed out), and if that game doesn’t believe that its content is good enough that I should be playing it for fun and only for fun, then I don’t want to play that game.

By the way, I totally agree with this.

Selon.7056:

Here are two complaints I see all the freaking time:

1) There is nothing to do once you’re level 80.
2) I wanted to get away from gear grinds and just play.

Here is the problem – this is a MMO. The world does not, and will not stay stagnant. You guys can’t have it both ways. You can’t have a game where you get the best gear and then there is nothing to go to from there AND a game that continues to expand on itself by creating new content and, inevitably, gear.

Everyone here is complaining about the POSSIBILITY of a gear grind – why are you complaining? Isn’t this what you guys are so adamant about? “There is nothing to do when I get to 80”. Well you know what? Now there will be. What is it you guys are really looking for from ANet? I’m personally very happy with the game. I feel it has nailed everything that I’m looking for in a MMO. Bring on the content, and bring on more gear and dungeons. Keep on keeping in fresh ANet.

They could of had it both ways. Make ascended the progression system and remove the stat increase. Sadly, the majority of people who bought GW2 didn’t buy it because they wanted to get away from gear treadmill, they like gear treadmill they also liked everything else about the game. Its easier to please them and keep them than it is the GW1 crowd :/

That said, this is the best way to do a treadmill. Its very very slow. Assuming ANET doesn’t release the next set of ascended pieces for a few months and then lowers the requirements for the previous set it won’t be as bad as WoW.

Luckily, ANET made really really good dungeon with FOTM. I’ll play it despite the fact I hate treadmills.

I think no one go against the “infinite dungeon”.. is a pretty good idea to keep ppl playing,

THE ungly thing is that the player that like that sort of progression, now are advantaged to the rest of the player, because they can have higher stats.

I see someone that sai that WvW is always unbalanced, but they forget that if you go on WvW with exotics item, you know what you risk because you know that exotic is the max stats gear, and its pretty easy to get. But now, there is no balance at all, if you want to be effective on dungeon or WvW you have to farm, and farm intensively… ok for now its only a ring and a back.. but in the future?

im one of the ones that was planning to play on this game for years…buy all the expansions and sometimes buy some gem to convert on gold, or take estetic items. But if i cant plan my permanence on this game, its useless rest to play, because i can have an intensive period of work, stop to play some week, return and instead of play as always, be forced to farm the new tier to be effective like before.

caiomacos.1694:

Selon.7056:

What do you GW1 guys want from the game then? How are to keep a MMO fresh without introducing new content and gear?

Where did anyone say you cant introduce content / gear? A game can add content and gear without making it a gear treadmill. All you have to do is not make the new gear better than the ones already in the game. They should be completely aesthetic, like they were in GW1.

The problem is, this is stagnant. Some of us want something more substantial than ‘ooh, pretty colours!’ with an update. Something that changes the way the game is played at a meta level.

I don’t want a fiery greatsword that just looks pretty. I want a fiery greatsword with unique stats that allow me to build in a way I’ve never been able to before. This game already discourages unique builds due to the fact that all weapons and armors are shoehorned into a neat little template so that the players don’t have to think or work too hard.

Btw I am not running new dungeon all over gain to get Ascended gear, I am running it to gain material and fractal weapon drops.

So its not about higher stats, but about the skin, loot.

Areanet could simply make ascended gear on pair with exotic and only add the infusion slot for pve progression. Problem solved

Lifelike.5862:

The problem is, this is stagnant. Some of us want something more substantial than ‘ooh, pretty colours!’ with an update. Something that changes the way the game is played at a meta level.

But equipment with higher stats doesn’t change anything. New content will always be designed to be at an appropriate level of challenge relative to the strongest that a player can be. If your damage goes up by 15%, the next boss’s health will go up by 15%.

The only thing that changes is that your gear, which used to be 100% of the maximum power, has been downgraded to only 87% of maximum power, and you have to grind out the new upgrades just to get back to 100%, which is exactly where you started.

Dogblaster.6713:

Btw I am not running new dungeon all over gain to get Ascended gear, I am running it to gain material and fractal weapon drops.

So its not about higher stats, but about the skin, loot.

Areanet could simply make ascended gear on pair with exotic and only add the infusion slot for pve progression. Problem solved

Yep, but this is like split the players in 2 factions: dungeon runners and all the others.
All this ascendant project is a mess. Its ok to add new skins hard to get (for all i care, they can be without stats… so i have to buy the trasmutation stone if i like to use the skin) but not a new stats tier. The easy way is simple make ppl infuse the existing gear… so you can keep you Items, your runes, and you can add infusions.
ALL WILL BE HAPPY WITH THIS, instead of split players.

Crater.1625:

Lifelike.5862:

The problem is, this is stagnant. Some of us want something more substantial than ‘ooh, pretty colours!’ with an update. Something that changes the way the game is played at a meta level.

But equipment with higher stats doesn’t change anything. New content will always be designed to be at an appropriate level of challenge relative to the strongest that a player can be. If your damage goes up by 15%, the next boss’s health will go up by 15%.

The only thing that changes is that your gear, which used to be 100% of the maximum power, has been downgraded to only 87% of maximum power, and you have to grind out the new upgrades just to get back to 100%, which is exactly where you started.

I would agree with you, but the way fractals are being handled is already showing that they allow more manipulation of stats than regular gears, due to offering a larger range of different stats through the whole infusion system. Yes, it is power creep. However, I’m very interested to see how certain builds will evolve based on this power creep.

It’s too late to ask for UNIQUE stats on new gear/weapons in this game, such as the way weapons worked in older MMO’s like Ragnarok online. Since this is not possible, upgraded stats on gear will be the closest thing.

In the end, I really don’t think it’ll matter much. Players will eventually get infused gear, and everyone’s numbers will go up across the board, offensively and defensively. The only people truly getting left behind will be the lazy ones who don’t really play the game.

Lifelike.5862:

Crater.1625:

Lifelike.5862:

The problem is, this is stagnant. Some of us want something more substantial than ‘ooh, pretty colours!’ with an update. Something that changes the way the game is played at a meta level.

But equipment with higher stats doesn’t change anything. New content will always be designed to be at an appropriate level of challenge relative to the strongest that a player can be. If your damage goes up by 15%, the next boss’s health will go up by 15%.

The only thing that changes is that your gear, which used to be 100% of the maximum power, has been downgraded to only 87% of maximum power, and you have to grind out the new upgrades just to get back to 100%, which is exactly where you started.

I would agree with you, but the way fractals are being handled is already showing that they allow more manipulation of stats than regular gears, due to offering a larger range of different stats through the whole infusion system. Yes, it is power creep. However, I’m very interested to see how certain builds will evolve based on this power creep.

It’s too late to ask for UNIQUE stats on new gear/weapons in this game, such as the way weapons worked in older MMO’s like Ragnarok online. Since this is not possible, upgraded stats on gear will be the closest thing.

In the end, I really don’t think it’ll matter much. Players will eventually get infused gear, and everyone’s numbers will go up across the board, offensively and defensively. The only people truly getting left behind will be the lazy ones who don’t really play the game.

ANd then they put out the above ascendent gear, and after the godly gear… Dont talk for the other players… i dont consider myself a lazy one, but i dont want to LOSE time to farm for stats! if i have to farm its because I WANT TO FARM (like on GW) , and not because im forced to.

Ganzo.5079:

Dogblaster.6713:

Btw I am not running new dungeon all over gain to get Ascended gear, I am running it to gain material and fractal weapon drops.

So its not about higher stats, but about the skin, loot.

Areanet could simply make ascended gear on pair with exotic and only add the infusion slot for pve progression. Problem solved

Yep, but this is like split the players in 2 factions: dungeon runners and all the others.
All this ascendant project is a mess. Its ok to add new skins hard to get (for all i care, they can be without stats… so i have to buy the trasmutation stone if i like to use the skin) but not a new stats tier. The easy way is simple make ppl infuse the existing gear… so you can keep you Items, your runes, and you can add infusions.
ALL WILL BE HAPPY WITH THIS, instead of split players.

Yes, but this isn’t going to happen. So basically we got pushed out of our game. As someone already said on the forums, if I wanted to play a treadmill game I’ll go to other games who had long time to perfect treadmill methodology.

Ganzo.5079:

Lifelike.5862:

Crater.1625:

Lifelike.5862:

The problem is, this is stagnant. Some of us want something more substantial than ‘ooh, pretty colours!’ with an update. Something that changes the way the game is played at a meta level.

But equipment with higher stats doesn’t change anything. New content will always be designed to be at an appropriate level of challenge relative to the strongest that a player can be. If your damage goes up by 15%, the next boss’s health will go up by 15%.

The only thing that changes is that your gear, which used to be 100% of the maximum power, has been downgraded to only 87% of maximum power, and you have to grind out the new upgrades just to get back to 100%, which is exactly where you started.

I would agree with you, but the way fractals are being handled is already showing that they allow more manipulation of stats than regular gears, due to offering a larger range of different stats through the whole infusion system. Yes, it is power creep. However, I’m very interested to see how certain builds will evolve based on this power creep.

It’s too late to ask for UNIQUE stats on new gear/weapons in this game, such as the way weapons worked in older MMO’s like Ragnarok online. Since this is not possible, upgraded stats on gear will be the closest thing.

In the end, I really don’t think it’ll matter much. Players will eventually get infused gear, and everyone’s numbers will go up across the board, offensively and defensively. The only people truly getting left behind will be the lazy ones who don’t really play the game.

ANd then they put out the above ascendent gear, and after the godly gear… Dont talk for the other players… i dont consider myself a lazy one, but i dont want to LOSE time to farm for stats! if i have to farm its because I WANT TO FARM (like on GW) , and not because im forced to.

You’re not losing time to farm for stats…you are experiencing the new content offered in order to seek new rewards. It’s only boring and a chore if you allow it to be 9_9

Do you seriously think it’s satisfying to max out a tier of gear and then go “ok, done. Never have to work for gear ever again, zzz.”

No, I cannot see the satisfaction that comes with having nothing more to aim for. Right now, it’s the casual players who want to grind for aesthetics who are being selfish. At least they have a viable option of something to waste their time on – an aesthetic upgrade that doesn’t really contribute much of a reward other than as a vanity item. Those of us who want more progression are left in the dust after Exotic gear, with nothing to really aim for beyond that. Nothing but making gold…to do what with?

Anet said in the manifesto that they would be making the game to cater to both the casual and the hardcore crowd. Somewhere along the line, entitled GW1 players interpreted that as “casual crowd only.” it seems.

Malefactor.2971:

GW1 wasn’t an MMO, so there’s that.

How do you figure its not an mmo?

Lifelike.5862:

I would agree with you, but the way fractals are being handled is already showing that they allow more manipulation of stats than regular gears, due to offering a larger range of different stats through the whole infusion system.

The exact opposite is true. Fewer permutations of customized stats are available with Ascended equipment compared with Exotic, and there are also dozens of novel effects that are possible with Exotic equipment and impossible with Ascended equipment.

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Hydrophidian.4319:

Actually, I think you’re the one who’s got it wrong.

As I understand it, as far as attributes go, Legendary items were on par with Exotic items. Legendary items were strictly an aesthetic achievement. Performance-wise, Exotic items were at the cap.

But Legendary weapons can be fitted with Superior Sigils, which have stats and grant special abilities that Ascended items can’t even get, and in fact can’t even come close to matching. So can exotics, actually, for that matter. Ironically, you’re actually sacrificing the ability to get the benefits of Superior Sigils when you use Ascended gear, with “Infusions” being the only customisation, and as far as we’ve seen, Infusions are pretty much comparable to tier 1 jewels. Big whoop.

Now Ascended gear represents a new cap, and Legendary items were adjusted upward to be on par with them.

Great, thank you for proving that there is no gear treadmill. Existing gear is improved to better match new gear. Isn’t that exactly what all the complainers would wish for in the first place?

Shiren.9532:

New content doesn’t inevitably mean better gear. GW1 released two massive campaigns and one expansion after it’s initial launch and it did it without adding new gear.

Not true actually. They added inscribed weapons in Guild Wars 1 which in fact basically obsoleted all the weapons that existed before and relegating them to “old-school”. And even before that, if I’m not mistaken, just a few months into the game’s life they added the new “uniques” tier which dropped in a sort of dungeon. (sound familiar?) And while there was some complaining, it was pretty kitten tame. Hell, compared to the nonsense over this, Katrina was tame.

Lol another thread troll trying to defy the very basis of reality, the older weapons in guild wars 1 were actually more expensive than new ones, both had max stats and the only difference was you could choose what to put in them in the new ones while the old ones had that already in, realistically speaking it was not viable for anyone to setup their weapon more than twice, it was more viable to buy a secondary cheaper weapon to hold those stats, old school weapons were considered more rare therefor they were more expensive.

Gw2 new dungeon requires a new gear the more u advance in it, it is general consensus that they will choose the max stats everytime they can get, you only set them once anyways so changing a silly rune or a sigil or a jewel isnt going to make up for that.

Lifelike.5862:

No, I cannot see the satisfaction that comes with having nothing more to aim for…Somewhere along the line, entitled GW1 players interpreted that as “casual crowd only.

You sound like one of these casual players that only plays a game for a bout of virtual stamp collecting rather than enjoying the gameplay like a real player, also the sort who thinks gear advantages in PvP (wvw) is a good thing as opposed to most hardcore PvPers who prefer a level playing field where skill is more important and certainly don’t want to have to run casual ez-mode content like dungeons against mind numblingly boring scripted content to be competitve in PvP (WvW).

I’m interested to know how long this new tier of stats has been on the cards. It does seem like a big u-turn, this isn’t something they’ve designed and implemented on the fly in the last couple of months, right?

I’ve not been keeping up with the rage and I’ve deliberately kept away from the ascended details beyond the basics. All I know is that defensive infusion is needed to counter agony and ascended items with infusion slots are a bump of stats on exotics.

That being said, does this not imply that this tier is now the top tier of gear there will ever be, that it’s required for the agony mechanic that we’ll see in future endgame instances and as long as you have ascended items slotted with infusion you can compete in them?

And if that’s the case, that hardly represents power creep, it’s just the unveiling of a final tier of gear that will always be needed for this style of dungeon?

See, I said I wasn’t clued up. And that’s because ANet aren’t communicating their full intent very well at all. They could resolve all this rage by confirming that this is the case, then all the bad feelings would go away.

I tend to agree with Selon on this one. Here’s why:

1. This is not GW1.
2. People obviously wanted to try something different or they would have stuck with GW1 instead of buying GW2 and trying it out.
3. How the heck is a few extra stats a game breaker? In a game where you can take an ungeared level 8 character into WvW and still do quite well, gear should not ever be an issue. Its a luxury item.
4. There will always be complaints for or against because a company can’t please everyone.

I understand frustration, but I guess my issue isn’t with frustrated players voicing their opinions, its with the selfish people who thing their view is the only view and say things like “OMG Anet! I can’t believe you changed things. I quit because now this game sucks! Why isn’t it like GW1???”

Its not like GW1 because it ISN"T GW1.

lagrangeify.5641:

I’m interested to know how long this new tier of stats has been on the cards. It does seem like a big u-turn, this isn’t something they’ve designed and implemented on the fly in the last couple of months, right?

My thought exactly! And why haven’t they said anything about it while developing new items and the idea itself? (It’s rhetorical. It’s pretty straightforward why they haven’t said anything)

lagrangeify.5641:

I’ve not been keeping up with the rage and I’ve deliberately kept away from the ascended details beyond the basics. All I know is that defensive infusion is needed to counter agony and ascended items with infusion slots are a bump of stats on exotics.

That being said, does this not imply that this tier is now the top tier of gear there will ever be, that it’s required for the agony mechanic that we’ll see in future endgame instances and as long as you have ascended items slotted with infusion you can compete in them?

And if that’s the case, that hardly represents power creep, it’s just the unveiling of a final tier of gear that will always be needed for this style of dungeon?

From Linsey Murdock’s Blog post (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/):
“…The first end game mechanic we will introduce is Agony…”
So he sais they will keep introducing new mechanics later on. Who sais you won’t need new “ascended items” to fight off new “agony mechanics”? This is just one of the issues we are having.

lagrangeify.5641:

See, I said I wasn’t clued up. And that’s because ANet aren’t communicating their full intent very well at all. They could resolve all this rage by confirming that this is the case, then all the bad feelings would go away.

They aren’t communicating, period. After 200 pages, 10k posts and 112k views in the forum topic about ascended gear they haven;t said a single word.
On german website they said they can’t promise that because they would again be called liars. So, no. This is far from last tier they’ll introduce.

Ageia.5843:

2. People obviously wanted to try something different or they would have stuck with GW1 instead of buying GW2 and trying it out.

And if people wanted a gear treadmill, endless grind and etc etc, they would have stuck with WoW or any WoW clone instead of buying GW2 and trying it out.

ArenaNet specifically said Guild Wars 2 was a game for people who didn’t like the outdated mechanics from other MMOs. Now they are adding some of those mechanics in the game. It’s not hard to understand why so many people are upset.

Ageia.5843:

I tend to agree with Selon on this one. Here’s why:

1. This is not GW1.
2. People obviously wanted to try something different or they would have stuck with GW1 instead of buying GW2 and trying it out.
3. How the heck is a few extra stats a game breaker? In a game where you can take an ungeared level 8 character into WvW and still do quite well, gear should not ever be an issue. Its a luxury item.
4. There will always be complaints for or against because a company can’t please everyone.

I understand frustration, but I guess my issue isn’t with frustrated players voicing their opinions, its with the selfish people who thing their view is the only view and say things like “OMG Anet! I can’t believe you changed things. I quit because now this game sucks! Why isn’t it like GW1???”

Its not like GW1 because it ISN"T GW1.

It really doesn’t have anything to do with GW1, it is what they sold this game on, what their stated core philosphies for GW2 were, as stated numerous times in interviews, in their manifesto, etc, they have done a u-turn on that, a mere 3 months into the game.

They’ve managed the incredible feat of making politcial parties manifestos look honest in comparision.

Erasculio.2914:

Ageia.5843:

2. People obviously wanted to try something different or they would have stuck with GW1 instead of buying GW2 and trying it out.

And if people wanted a gear treadmill, endless grind and etc etc, they would have stuck with WoW or any WoW clone instead of buying GW2 and trying it out.

ArenaNet specifically said Guild Wars 2 was a game for people who didn’t like the outdated mechanics from other MMOs. Now they are adding some of those mechanics in the game. It’s not hard to understand why so many people are upset.

Sorry, but I really just don’t see how adding some new content and a few nice pieces of gear for people who WANT to work towards it is turning the game into a cookie cutter version of WoW… I know those aren’t your words for it… they were mine.

Something being an old idea doesn’t automatically make it outdated. Some of those mechanics are reused in various games because they work. Maybe not you, and obviously not some other people in the forum, but many players WANT something new to work towards.

That said, I’d be every bit as satisfied if they equalized the stats with the current exotics and just gave them different skins. Because to be honest, I notice very little difference in game play regardless if my character is wearing crappy greens or pretty gold exotics.

Lifelike.5862:

Ganzo.5079:

Lifelike.5862:

Crater.1625:

Lifelike.5862:

The problem is, this is stagnant. Some of us want something more substantial than ‘ooh, pretty colours!’ with an update. Something that changes the way the game is played at a meta level.

But equipment with higher stats doesn’t change anything. New content will always be designed to be at an appropriate level of challenge relative to the strongest that a player can be. If your damage goes up by 15%, the next boss’s health will go up by 15%.

The only thing that changes is that your gear, which used to be 100% of the maximum power, has been downgraded to only 87% of maximum power, and you have to grind out the new upgrades just to get back to 100%, which is exactly where you started.

I would agree with you, but the way fractals are being handled is already showing that they allow more manipulation of stats than regular gears, due to offering a larger range of different stats through the whole infusion system. Yes, it is power creep. However, I’m very interested to see how certain builds will evolve based on this power creep.

It’s too late to ask for UNIQUE stats on new gear/weapons in this game, such as the way weapons worked in older MMO’s like Ragnarok online. Since this is not possible, upgraded stats on gear will be the closest thing.

In the end, I really don’t think it’ll matter much. Players will eventually get infused gear, and everyone’s numbers will go up across the board, offensively and defensively. The only people truly getting left behind will be the lazy ones who don’t really play the game.

ANd then they put out the above ascendent gear, and after the godly gear… Dont talk for the other players… i dont consider myself a lazy one, but i dont want to LOSE time to farm for stats! if i have to farm its because I WANT TO FARM (like on GW) , and not because im forced to.

You’re not losing time to farm for stats…you are experiencing the new content offered in order to seek new rewards. It’s only boring and a chore if you allow it to be 9_9

Do you seriously think it’s satisfying to max out a tier of gear and then go “ok, done. Never have to work for gear ever again, zzz.”

No, I cannot see the satisfaction that comes with having nothing more to aim for. Right now, it’s the casual players who want to grind for aesthetics who are being selfish. At least they have a viable option of something to waste their time on – an aesthetic upgrade that doesn’t really contribute much of a reward other than as a vanity item. Those of us who want more progression are left in the dust after Exotic gear, with nothing to really aim for beyond that. Nothing but making gold…to do what with?

Anet said in the manifesto that they would be making the game to cater to both the casual and the hardcore crowd. Somewhere along the line, entitled GW1 players interpreted that as “casual crowd only.” it seems.

lol? when you are equipped, you are plenty of thing to do(GW is a teacher in this), but NO ONE is MANDATORY for the game experience. Farm better stats if they are avaible (sadly) is mandatory.

All of the players that are concerned here, dont leave the game before because Gw2 is a young game, we let the game time to grow!
But someone betray our HOPE, so for us the game is growing in a very very BAD direction.
you love to be forced to farm…ok sadly you have another toy… one like the others.