Guild Wars 2

Hologramx.6402:

If they added only the agony stats that is only required in FotM, no extra stats as huge as one extra upgrade slot, things would be quite different. It won’t be a gear progression, it will be a pure FotM progression and won’t affect WvWvW. But they just did it, while adding the mechanics of a Gating War. Now that discrimination has flooded over everywhere, map chat, guild chat … I felt this world of Tyria has become such a harsh and unpleasant land now.

Exactly. There was no need to have any other stat on the infusion but agony. It feels like
WOW lite now.

Hologramx.6402:

If they added only the agony stats that is only required in FotM, no extra stats as huge as one extra upgrade slot, things would be quite different. It won’t be a gear progression, it will be a pure FotM progression and won’t affect WvWvW. But they just did it, while adding the mechanics of a Gating War. Now that discrimination has flooded over everywhere, map chat, guild chat … I felt this world of Tyria has become such a harsh and unpleasant land now.

conceptually I agree, but this is obviously intended for people who better looking cosmetic gear wasnt enough of an incentive to play the game. If Ascended armor had no better stats it just wouldnt have worked for its intended purpose. It would have been dismissed by the people its intended for as another useless skin with a different name!

If people are discriminating based on gear outside FoTM then they really dont know how to play this game! … inside FoTM well that place is intended for player who want progression, such people want to feel they’re cutting edge even if that edge is mostly illusionary If you dont like that play style my suggestion would be steer clear

Hologramx.6402:

If they added only the agony stats that is only required in FotM, no extra stats as huge as one extra upgrade slot, things would be quite different. It won’t be a gear progression, it will be a pure FotM progression and won’t affect WvWvW. But they just did it, while adding the mechanics of a Gating War. Now that discrimination has flooded over everywhere, map chat, guild chat … I felt this world of Tyria has become such a harsh and unpleasant land now.

Mhh please, its far from as huge as an extra upgrade slot.
Its 10mainstat, 5 of each secondary stat. So 2/5 of an extra upgrade for the main stat and 1/3 of an extra upgrade for the secondary stat. Its less than 10% stat upgrade overall.

oh, also: level cap WILL be raised

&t=58m35s they say it around that time

The game that guy is describing in the interview sounds great, so…where is it?

Galen Grey.4709:

We keep thinking that a small minority wanted vertical progression but it could also be that unfortunately the majority of the people just cant play a horizontal game like we do ! If you dont get a sense of wonder exploring, enjoying the art and experiencing stories what is there left for you to do in a horizontal progression game? If you cant enjoy a really beautifully crafted dynamic event chain, will you enjoy a skin that gives you no better stats?

I snipped a lot for everyone’s sake. Well I don’t have #‘s to give you on who likes horiz or vert, but it still goes against everything they been selling fans and if you didn’t like horiz, you bought the wrong game from the start. How do you make a game for 5+ years, say the same thing over and over and in a few months change it that fast? Even if the #‘s bore it out, that is a lightning quick design change, they seemingly didn’t even attempt to keep it horizontal. Typically the forces of change like that are: Money crunch, change in design leadership or a call from above.

I actually held off buying GW2 for a couple of months, I was one that didn’t feel it was ready, I actually got in because my son got it for his birthday, so I jumped in. The games handling to me never felt like GW1, I just recently found out two founders and a lead designer of GW1 were not on the GW2, that explained all I needed to know there. What I do find is the best open world game I’ve played, so I am enjoying my time, I would say if they needed to make a big change fast, they should have looked at the games strengths and strengthened them more. Even though the open world is great, we all can imagine it even better and guess what, that would have continued building community and not separation.

And the broken record I am, they should have gone for tons more unique looking gear to go for and not better stat’d gear. All would have stayed in line.

Oh and for the record I do vids on the fractals and literally show how much of a grind it ISN’T! It’s not hard takes moderate casual skill and you can do it slowly. I got 2 pieces doing 2 dungeons per day for the last 9 days. So people calling this a grind just plainly didn’t do it and assuming. It’s so easy it should actually get buffed so cut it out drama queens. Or you can try and fight facts fight the post you didn’t read and the vids I threw up barely trying on fractals. I am not a Anet fan boy I just don’t like lying or misinformed people and thats what is going on now.

Grind is subjective.

Not really when you say something like this is a grind. It would be that something is restrictive or resistant. But what if it’s not any of that and just takes you plainly doing it? Makes it no different than a quest or doing pvp. Just another added part of the game like the previous examples technically you don’t haved to do.

Silentstorm.7531:

Oh and for the record I do vids on the fractals and literally show how much of a grind it ISN’T! It’s not hard takes moderate casual skill and you can do it slowly. I got 2 pieces doing 2 dungeons per day for the last 9 days. So people calling this a grind just plainly didn’t do it and assuming. It’s so easy it should actually get buffed so cut it out drama queens. Or you can try and fight facts fight the post you didn’t read and the vids I threw up barely trying on fractals. I am not a Anet fan boy I just don’t like lying or misinformed people and thats what is going on now.

You have a very different definition of what isn’t a grind compared to me.

NaughtyProwler.8653:

Silentstorm.7531:

Oh and for the record I do vids on the fractals and literally show how much of a grind it ISN’T! It’s not hard takes moderate casual skill and you can do it slowly. I got 2 pieces doing 2 dungeons per day for the last 9 days. So people calling this a grind just plainly didn’t do it and assuming. It’s so easy it should actually get buffed so cut it out drama queens. Or you can try and fight facts fight the post you didn’t read and the vids I threw up barely trying on fractals. I am not a Anet fan boy I just don’t like lying or misinformed people and thats what is going on now.

You have a very different definition of what isn’t a grind compared to me.

So basically, your definition of a grind is anything that requires a modicum of effort?

Carltonbanks.1754:

NaughtyProwler.8653:

Silentstorm.7531:

Oh and for the record I do vids on the fractals and literally show how much of a grind it ISN’T! It’s not hard takes moderate casual skill and you can do it slowly. I got 2 pieces doing 2 dungeons per day for the last 9 days. So people calling this a grind just plainly didn’t do it and assuming. It’s so easy it should actually get buffed so cut it out drama queens. Or you can try and fight facts fight the post you didn’t read and the vids I threw up barely trying on fractals. I am not a Anet fan boy I just don’t like lying or misinformed people and thats what is going on now.

You have a very different definition of what isn’t a grind compared to me.

So basically, your definition of a grind is anything that requires a modicum of effort?

Nope. ANything that requires repetitively doing activities that I don’t enjoy….such as dungeons.

Melonbrew.9681:

Which I say again. Thats what they advertised. Been playing MMO’s long enough to know if this Little progression u call it is going to turn into more. If it brings in money it’s gonna happen end of.

I was so happy about this game. I have a family, I don’t have time to play MMO’s for 4-5 hours a night anymore. This game was my answer for still been able to play MMO’s and not get stuck at gated progression due to my real life commitments. But instead the MMO whiners and grinders got there way.

Shame on Arenanet

I’m with you. I’ve been playing mmos for almost 15 years now. The genre is the only gaming I play. I don’t have the time anymore to do gear grinds, and I thought GW2 was the Holy Grail for aging mmo gamers

Ohh well.

Horrorscope.7632:

Galen Grey.4709:

We keep thinking that a small minority wanted vertical progression but it could also be that unfortunately the majority of the people just cant play a horizontal game like we do ! If you dont get a sense of wonder exploring, enjoying the art and experiencing stories what is there left for you to do in a horizontal progression game? If you cant enjoy a really beautifully crafted dynamic event chain, will you enjoy a skin that gives you no better stats?

I snipped a lot for everyone’s sake. Well I don’t have #‘s to give you on who likes horiz or vert, but it still goes against everything they been selling fans and if you didn’t like horiz, you bought the wrong game from the start. How do you make a game for 5+ years, say the same thing over and over and in a few months change it that fast? Even if the #‘s bore it out, that is a lightning quick design change, they seemingly didn’t even attempt to keep it horizontal. Typically the forces of change like that are: Money crunch, change in design leadership or a call from above.

I actually held off buying GW2 for a couple of months, I was one that didn’t feel it was ready, I actually got in because my son got it for his birthday, so I jumped in. The games handling to me never felt like GW1, I just recently found out two founders and a lead designer of GW1 were not on the GW2, that explained all I needed to know there. What I do find is the best open world game I’ve played, so I am enjoying my time, I would say if they needed to make a big change fast, they should have looked at the games strengths and strengthened them more. Even though the open world is great, we all can imagine it even better and guess what, that would have continued building community and not separation.

And the broken record I am, they should have gone for tons more unique looking gear to go for and not better stat’d gear. All would have stayed in line.

Thing is so far they didnt change for horz prog to vert prog. Adding one tier once just doesnt do that! they need to keep adding tiers to become a vertical prog game.

What they did is compromise. The game is still entirely horz but there is one exception FoTM which tries to offer some sort of vert prog through the use of agony and infusions. Gear stays the same but slotted infusions progress levels as you get deeper in the dungeon which you need better infusions to do! So far thats the only real vertical progression they did! And its also optional vertical progression. If you dont care about vertical progression but still want to run the dungeon you can select any level of difficulty from 1 – 10 and play it as many times as you want!

All in all they implemented this in really good way the only miss step they did in my opinion is give more stats to ascended armor, I can understand why they did it but well it was to be expected horizontal progression people would be quite against it!

Silentstorm.7531:

So all you vertical progression whiners are whining something not even best in slot.

When you start accusing other people of bad reading comprehension. it’s good to actually read what you are quoting first. Yes, Legendaries will be BiS eq – because they will be equal to ascendants. So, Ascendants will also be BiS. Unless a new tier goes in, then that new tier (and bumped up Legendaries) will become BiS. Just as Legendaries are now BiS ex aequo exotics. If legendaries ever become better than Ascendants, then we will have even more problems to contend with – and the fact that such a possibility is mentioned (that they will always remain BiS, regardless of changes) is worrying.

I agree that it is early on in the process to start thinking that the game will completely change character. However, the people who are worried about this have a LOT of precedent in other games to base their worries on. And as I said earlier, there is no harm in letting the dev team know where you stand as long as it is done intelligently and with positive intent.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

A treadmill just keeps you running. Can you craft yourself full Ascended yet so that you have nothing left to craft? No. Because you are meant to run rabbit, run!

come on this is really a weak argument. so if instead of releasing just a back and ring they released the whole set it wouldnt be a treadmill cause you can craft it all and be done. But because they’re releasing the set a few pieces at a time it magically becomes a treadmill because ohh you cant be done this month you can only finish the back and rings… there is still the reset of the set remaining! Also you conveniently didnt the answer the most crucial question why you personally want to have this Ascended gear? what is the reason you cant be happy with your existent exotic set?

It isn’t a weak argument. If you play now, you have to invest in a lot of gear (and possibly transmutation stones) that you are going to have to replace. So, you have to get gear now and get gear later. Sound like a treadmill? If they unlocked it all at once then it would be like another game releasing 3-4 “tiers” at once. But that doesn’t happen because it destroys the illusion of it not being an insane grind to the top. Even though “treadmill” might have to be replaced by “insanity” that wouldn’t somehow make it good.

As for ‘why I personally want ascended gear’ being the most “crucial question,” I can only laugh. Call me crazy, but the impact of Ascended gear on the game seems a whole lot more crucial. Besides which I don’t “want” Ascended gear. I’d quite enjoy it being deleted entirely.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yes its called honesty. Since no one has a crystal ball you dont know what you’ll plan to do in 2, 3 years down the line, you dont even know what your players will want then. All he can say is the current plans and what he said is current plans are not to introduce a new tier. Personally I am more inclined to believe him with such an answer then if he had said oh dont worry this is the last tier ever we promise. You know what? the first answer hurt him because some people took one look at it and said see he didnt say never so they obviously plan to do it again even though he said no such thing.

Honesty? Honesty tells you that this was done to please a certain population and that this will need to be done again – for the same reasons. Don’t even try to tell me what was done with this update was “honest.”

Galen Grey.4709:

If he had said never 1/2 this issue would be defused but would it be the absolute truth or just saying what we wanted to hear?

Incorrect. Words from someone who hasn’t kept their word are just empty words. Only ACTION can defuse this issue.

Cancrizans.8527:

I agree that it is early on in the process to start thinking that the game will completely change character.

Are you kidding?

Over the past couple weeks we’ve seen things we never thought we’d see in this game:
- you can only get the top-end gear by doing “chores” in parts of the game (dungeons) you might not otherwise want to do.
- due to the above, you have the other aspects of the game emptying out (with the exceptions of a couple select servers) and Lion’s Arch becoming the only populated portion of the game world.
- you have 15 people gathered in one place looking for the same dungeon but not grouping because there is no benefit for those of higher FotM level to group with lower ones.
- you have people saying things like “link exotics or be kicked” or “you’re not high enough FotM level kick”

This game started out engineered with the express purpose of unifying the playerbase and rewarding people for helping others. It now splinters the playerbase and rewards people for excluding others.

RhysSebastian.7651:

This isn’t a sandbox MMO, where you can go outside and do wtf you want. Its a themepark game with a progression system. If you want sandbox play go play Eve online, tibia, or darkfall.

I do so enjoy people telling us what the game is and what it is about, even though the developers described something completely different. But really, silly us. We listened to Anet developers to find out what Guild Wars 2 was about, when we should have been listening to the WoW player base tell us what Guild Wars 2 was about.

Basically GW2 was marketed heavily as an alternate to your standard WoW style of MMO.

A few months in and things are not going as well as hoped. Instead of sticking to their philosophy, which they proudly hyped at any given opportunity, they’ve done a complete 180.

No this will not end well and it’s safe to say that ANet now realise this after the backlash from their recent patch. The question is what are they going to do about it? Continue going down this new path like nothing is wrong or are they actually going to start listening to the customers that they have left?

LOCO.1785:

Basically GW2 was marketed heavily as an alternate to your standard WoW style of MMO.

A few months in and things are not going as well as hoped. Instead of sticking to their philosophy, which they proudly hyped at any given opportunity, they’ve done a complete 180.

No this will not end well and it’s safe to say that ANet now realise this after the backlash from their recent patch. The question is what are they going to do about it? Continue going down this new path like nothing is wrong or are they actually going to start listening to the customers that they have left?

Who said it wasn’t going as well as hoped?
I saw plenty of people joining, the game was thriving despite the “ebb” of the initial launch “surge”, and nobody I met had any complaints.
Then this patch it. NOW it appears not to be “doing as well as hoped”.

the biggest issue currently isnt the ascended gear its just the grinding system they have in place to get cash. Currently people that have played a ton and get geared will have ground so much that they dont want to do it again with other people. This is also compounded by FotM which has already turned the game into the same format that WoW Cataclysm had with most people just in LA waiting to get a FoTM group.

This whole system is bad because the TP is cross server and farmers that are already geared are driving the prices thru the roof for everyone else. Right now its expensive but three months from now a new player will see the prices and not even bother they will just quit the game once they level a few alts to 80 because the cost to gear them to do FotM will be thru the roof.

plasmacutter.2709:

Who said it wasn’t going as well as hoped?
I saw plenty of people joining, the game was thriving despite the “ebb” of the initial launch “surge”, and nobody I met had any complaints.
Then this patch it. NOW it appears not to be “doing as well as hoped”.

That’s my only conclusion for why they felt they needed to change their whole game philosophy. Their investors didn’t like the figures they were seeing and felt they needed to step in and change the model to something that might bring in more cash.

I wouldn’t say the game was thriving before the last patch either. It seemed like it was on the decline, but still healthy enough.

LOCO.1785:

plasmacutter.2709:

Who said it wasn’t going as well as hoped?
I saw plenty of people joining, the game was thriving despite the “ebb” of the initial launch “surge”, and nobody I met had any complaints.
Then this patch it. NOW it appears not to be “doing as well as hoped”.

That’s my only conclusion for why they felt they needed to change their whole game philosophy. Their investors didn’t like the figures they were seeing and felt they needed to step in and change the model to something that might bring in more cash.

I wouldn’t say the game was thriving before the last patch either. It seemed like it was on the decline, but still healthy enough.

And here I thought the community growth was stabilizing. You can’t really declare a decline 3 months in. You’re still dealing with the surge-ebb cycle that always happens the first 3 months of a game’s life.

For instance, it was in much better shape community-wise at this point than rift was.

Yeah that’s true.

What I’d really like to see are the actual revenue figures, but that’s never gonna happen. So all i have to go on is anecdotal evidence.

In any case, I’d say the latest patch certainly didn’t have the impact they were hoping for.

OP is 100% correct, and removal of monthly fee means nothing. People will pay for a game they enjoy. I wouldn’t even play GW2 for free (which it is)

I have to say…that I’ve never seen anyone ask anyone to link their exotic gear or fractal level or be kicked in this game.

Ever.

And I run a LOT of dungeon PuGs.

People who are looking for specific criteria usually let people know when they’re spamming in map chat beforehand.

I just don’t get why they didn’t create another playable race or two and another profession or two while they were working on the game, then turn one loose every three or four months to make money. I would have thrown my life savings at them for content like that. Of course I do keep my life savings in a large change jar by my desk, but it adds up to a decent amount.

Am I the only one who would have been happy with something like that? Would the forums be filled with howls of rage if, for example, the Skritt were playable for $40 a few months after release? Or if we could buy the Dervish profession? (Whirly-gig Warriors and Thieves are nice and all, but I really want to play a GW2 Dervish, kitten it!).

Is there any more annoying way on this earth to extort cash from gamers than to force them to choose between forking over more money or grinding until they keel over dead like some poor gold farmer in an internet cafe?

Avatar.1923:

Tobias;

there is no way the game can keep the massive amout of hardcore players without treadmill and esport.

gw2 want to be the next big thing, and to be that big you need gear treadmill until somebody come up with a better fantasy mmo design.

And imo, that’s the core of the issue.

GW2 was (I strongly suspect) ordered to be something it wasn’t designed to be. By a greedy publisher (yup, I’m still ANet fanboy :P). Now it’s incomplete in both ways.

I guess we’ll see next year. That’s when GW2’s real test may come, as the next big series gives it a try.

Tenshi.3598:

Avatar.1923:

Tobias;

there is no way the game can keep the massive amout of hardcore players without treadmill and esport.

gw2 want to be the next big thing, and to be that big you need gear treadmill until somebody come up with a better fantasy mmo design.

And imo, that’s the core of the issue.

GW2 was (I strongly suspect) ordered to be something it wasn’t designed to be. By a greedy publisher (yup, I’m still ANet fanboy :P). Now it’s incomplete in both ways.

I guess we’ll see next year. That’s when GW2’s real test may come, as the next big series gives it a try.

I hope it lasts, and that we do start to see the ideas which were discussed/promised during the press hype. Guild Halls, more work with the Home Instance . . . more town clothing, shifting dynamic events where it might change over time . . .

RhysSebastian.7651:

This isn’t a sandbox MMO, where you can go outside and do wtf you want. Its a themepark game with a progression system. If you want sandbox play go play Eve online, tibia, or darkfall.

Sigh, you’re example of the very people that caused ANet to think this catastrophe was warranted.

Guess what? ANet explicitly advertised this game as NOT having a progression system. Most of the people at launch bought this game specifically for that. It was what made this game unique and allowed it to coexist in the MMO market because it wasn’t directly competing with WoW and its clones.

Now look at it? The people that wanted a game with no stat progression are leaving in droves, and many of those favouring the change are quickly realising that WoW still does it better. This change has led the game from appealing to a niche audience to appealing to very few people at all.

Since this patch GW2 actually has no unique selling point.

The Lost Shore patch turned a game I once loved into a grind like nothing else I’ve seen in the last few years. Also the FotM dungeon itself is nice, the Agony mechanic is just ridiculous and implemented in the most boring way possible. You can almost ignore it until lvl 20, cause it is mostly applied by attacks you would have dodged either way. And once at 20 you hit the Jade Maw wall were everybody that hasn’t enough agony resi just gets killed, there is no way to avoid that, which is really silly, especially cause you’ll hit the next wall at 30, 40 and so on.
That alone would still be a bad idea but kinda acceptable, if there would be a proper way to get that agony resi before you hit that wall. But that’s not the way it works, you either spend 250 t6 mats, 300 ectos and some rng FotM drops to get your t2 backpiece or your are at Fortuna’s mercy, if she decided that you deserve to get a ring or two in the daily chest you can proceed, otherwise you will have to find a team that is willing to drag you through. But the lunacy doesn’t stop there, not there is even more. The gear that drops is both account bound and unique so even if you get a ring its almost always worthless for your character, most of the time it either has the wrong stats or you already have the ring that just dropped. And since they are account bound on pick up all you can do is to vendor it or to hand it to one of your twinks, which doesn’t make much sense since the FotM progression is not account bound.
The “good thing” about that is, that a lot of people don’t have to bother with these problems yet cause they are still far away from reaching level 20+ cause it’s kitten hard to find a group at your level. Lion’s Arch is currently overcrowded on every server with people who spam “lfg/lfm FotM x” all day – or at least until the spam filter kicks in. In some level brackets it takes hours to find a group, not a problem if you have a lots of friends or a fixed team for your level, but the casuals out there spend way more time looking for teammates than actually playing the game. It sometimes happens to me too, but I don’t care that much since I just play Planetside 2 on my second monitor and let a neat little program that I wrote myself do the spamming, and since it also notifies me when someone whispers me I don’t have to pay attention to GW2 at all.
So, lets say we have our team together and already did a few fractals but weren’t lucky enough to get a ring. Hey, it doesn’t matter, at least we can spend the tokens we earned to get some items. Well, not really. First FotM nets you way less tokens per hour than any other dungeon out there and at the same time you need way more to get an exotic. The only items worth purchasing at the moment are the basic 20 slots bags for 150 relics – why would anybody buy the exotic bags for 250, it makes no sense since exotics don’t drop that often -, the infusions and maybe the gift. There is no set and not ascended gear we could buy, and even if there were, with the price of 1350 relic for the exotic back piece I seriously doubt we would be able to afford it.

Seriously Arena Net? Seriously? This is what you understand by “not making grindy games”? This is how you treat your faithful GW1 fanbase? What happend to “you can get the best gear in the game anyway you want”? In my book, whoever is responsible for that should be fired. Hey, I still like the individual fractals, some of them have really fun mechanics, but the concept behind tokens and ascended gear is just horrible.

I’m waiting for the results of the reddit AMA today. And I really hope that you won’t be avoiding the important questions about the future of GW2 again. Just be honest and tell us whether this was a bad mistake or this is what future content patches will all look like. If you decide to got down the gear grind road I won’t be mad, I’ll just leave and play something else. Of course it would be sad but at the end of the day GW2 is your game and you ruin it any way you want. But since we bought the game and a lot of us spend money on the Gem Store you owe us honesty about your plans at the very least.

A disappointed (no-longer-)customer.

Fortuna.7259:

It isn’t a weak argument. If you play now, you have to invest in a lot of gear (and possibly transmutation stones) that you are going to have to replace. So, you have to get gear now and get gear later. Sound like a treadmill? If they unlocked it all at once then it would be like another game releasing 3-4 “tiers” at once. But that doesn’t happen because it destroys the illusion of it not being an insane grind to the top. Even though “treadmill” might have to be replaced by “insanity” that wouldn’t somehow make it good.

Nope doesnt sound like a treadmill just like when we started the game saw 5 tiers of gear we didnt say ohh now I have common and will have to get fine quality which I will then have to replace with masterworks and then get rares on my way to exotic!

What? if they had released all the set at once it would have been like adding 3 – 4 tiers? How did you come to that conclusion? A single tier is a whole armor set from start to finish that share the same stats how can it be like 3 – 4 tiers all at once? Seriously I’d take one hard look at how you’re perceiving this whole thing. Its a fact, not even debatable that what they did is release a single tier of armor. Yet because they’re staggering the release of that tier first you saw it as a treadmill but when presented with the scenario of how it would look if they had released it all at once you’re seeing it 3 – 4 tiers even though its unquestionably just a single tier! You’re either trying to win the argument too hard or if you truely feel like this you’re trying to see this a lot worst then it really is for some reason!

Fortuna.7259:

As for ‘why I personally want ascended gear’ being the most “crucial question,” I can only laugh. Call me crazy, but the impact of Ascended gear on the game seems a whole lot more crucial. Besides which I don’t “want” Ascended gear. I’d quite enjoy it being deleted entirely.

How is it critical? This weekend I did a little experiment I tried playing in the only place where ascended armor has any impact at all without any armor! so not 1 tier difference that ascended armor will provide but rather a whole 5 tier difference. Tried logging in early in the morning to get into small engagement as to not skew this as much as possible. Unfortunately people start playing quite early but I got a few small skirmishes. Ended up with 7 kills and just 2 deaths (weaning nothing no armor, no accessories) I also got 2 solo engagements in which when seeing me wearing no armor the opponents fled! I am not kidding! you’d expect that provided this believe that armor is everything I would have been a prime target yet not one but 2 players when coming one on one they just simply ran away! But dont take my word for it, try it yourself!

Fortuna.7259:

Honesty? Honesty tells you that this was done to please a certain population and that this will need to be done again – for the same reasons. Don’t even try to tell me what was done with this update was “honest.”

Didnt they do that? They said this was done for what they called “dedicated” players who finished crafting exotics too quickly and had nothing to do so they did FoTM to provide players with a sort of progression but at the same time not a treadmill

You’re trying to twist things again. the argument was about them being honest about wht they’re doing but now you switched to discussing if the update itself was honest! For us who wanted complete horizontal game we’ll never see it as honest of course. Players who wanted progression will see it as honest because their desires are being considered as should desires of everyone paying for the game. People who are neutral will also see it as honest because unlike the general perception here, they didnt betray horizontal players in favor of vertical, they instead found a compromise.

Fortuna.7259:

Incorrect. Words from someone who hasn’t kept their word are just empty words. Only ACTION can defuse this issue.

Bet nothing can defuse this issue! thats the thing about witch hunts, getting the witch doesnt defuse the hysteria it just makes the witch hunters look for the next witch. People should never have taken this issue so far and set off this avalange. Instead of just telling arenanet they disagreed with what they did clearing waiting and seeing how they’d respond people went all out, that was wrong imho

LOCO.1785:

Yeah that’s true.

What I’d really like to see are the actual revenue figures, but that’s never gonna happen. So all i have to go on is anecdotal evidence.

In any case, I’d say the latest patch certainly didn’t have the impact they were hoping for.

Actually you can see that, check ncsoft quarterly financial filling.
http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx

This includes data up to September I believe.

Anyhow did listen to it my and essentially ncsoft told its investors in that call that GW2 exceed its expectations. They sold 2m copies in the first 2 weeks and where expecting to reach 3m before the end of the year. And they did $14m up to September from the cash shop.

The game is doing great! they didnt do this because the game didnt perform, they did this to try to offer some content to everyone like they themselves said after all!

Galen Grey.4709:

How is it critical? This weekend I did a little experiment I tried playing in the only place where ascended armor has any impact at all without any armor! so not 1 tier difference that ascended armor will provide but rather a whole 5 tier difference. Tried logging in early in the morning to get into small engagement as to not skew this as much as possible. Unfortunately people start playing quite early but I got a few small skirmishes. Ended up with 7 kills and just 2 deaths (weaning nothing no armor, no accessories) I also got 2 solo engagements in which when seeing me wearing no armor the opponents fled! I am not kidding! you’d expect that provided this believe that armor is everything I would have been a prime target yet not one but 2 players when coming one on one they just simply ran away! But dont take my word for it, try it yourself!

I wont take your word for it.
I’d like to see a video of this and where you solo events considering i get hit pretty hard by sentry’s on alts that are being upscaled. kindly show your hero panel just before you attack and during and mouse over any gear you do have equipped, not using lvl 1 white weapons? why not?

Some players dont attack naked people who are in WvW for exploration/jumping puzzles, why did you not chase and fight them with your gearless skills, or can you not get kills without other geared players backing you up, which seems to negate the point your trying to make

Galen Grey,

This is not a “witch hunt” and stop blaming the victim for a legitimate complaint.

Lets say that wow was like a car. For years I had a car but then wanted something different so I turn in the car and buy a truck (which is like GW2). So after three months I look in the garage and the dealer took away the truck and replaced it with a El Camino (new GW2). Now you can play lawyer all day and play with the definition and say that I still have a truck but it’s not what I originally wanted or bought.

And yes Anet has a right to change the game any way they see fit but the feelings and actions of those who feel misled on these forms are also legitimate.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Galen Grey.4709:

How is it critical? This weekend I did a little experiment I tried playing in the only place where ascended armor has any impact at all without any armor! so not 1 tier difference that ascended armor will provide but rather a whole 5 tier difference. Tried logging in early in the morning to get into small engagement as to not skew this as much as possible. Unfortunately people start playing quite early but I got a few small skirmishes. Ended up with 7 kills and just 2 deaths (weaning nothing no armor, no accessories) I also got 2 solo engagements in which when seeing me wearing no armor the opponents fled! I am not kidding! you’d expect that provided this believe that armor is everything I would have been a prime target yet not one but 2 players when coming one on one they just simply ran away! But dont take my word for it, try it yourself!

I wont take your word for it.
I’d like to see a video of this and where you solo events considering i get hit pretty hard by sentry’s on alts that are being upscaled. kindly show your hero panel just before you attack and during and mouse over any gear you do have equipped, not using lvl 1 white weapons? why not?

Some players dont attack naked people who are in WvW for exploration/jumping puzzles, why did you not chase and fight them with your gearless skills, or can you not get kills without other geared players backing you up, which seems to negate the point your trying to make

why dont you just try it yourself? But I will record a video like you asked.

I tried chasing them but I have a necro not many things I can do to stop people who have swifts and teleports.

Enzomiles.6197:

Galen Grey,

This is not a “witch hunt” and stop blaming the victim for a legitimate complaint.

Lets say that wow was like a car. For years I had a car but then wanted something different so I turn in the car and buy a truck (which is like GW2). So after three months I look in the garage and the dealer took away the truck and replaced it with a El Camino (new GW2). Now you can play lawyer all day and play with the definition and say that I still have a truck but it’s not what I originally wanted or bought.

And yes Anet has a right to change the game any way they see fit but the feelings and actions of those who feel misled on these forms are also legitimate.

ohh it most certainly is a witch hunt!
A legitimate complain would be, I bought this game because of its pure horizontal progression and I dont like the fact now a gear with better stats was introduced because I am afraid this is the start of vertical progression which I definitely dont want. Thats a legimate complain but is that what we’re seeing ? no, We’re seeing Arenanet lied to us because people somehow decided even though they specifically said they’re not introducing a treadmill and they’ll not be releasing new tiers regularly means they’ll be doing exactly the opposite of what they said! we’re seeing people say they used love gw2 but now they’ll do everything in their power to see it crash and burn, we’re seeing people take every statement arenanet make on the subject twisted in ways to mean exactly the opposite of what they’re trying to say!

Take your analogy for example, you’re calling horizontal progression a truck and vertical progression a car. You said that the last patch 100% turned the truck into a hybrid mini truck / car which is not true at all!

There is still no vertical progression, a single new tier doesnt make it so unless there is some written law somewhere that say 5 tiers is okey to consider a game horizontal but 6 tiers makes it vertical! the only vertical progression they really introduced isnt the ascended gear itself its agony / infusion system in FoTM and that doesnt even kick in after level 10.

Truth is the only thing that changed is there is one more tier to get that take a bit more effort then exotic. Its entirely optional. Ignoring the set doesnt stop you from playing absolutely everything the game has to offer!

So you still have your same exact truck, but there is this one race track that when you complete 10 laps if you decide you can switch it up with your El Camino and once you do that you can decide if you want to drive one or the other or mix and match them if you want!

I am not blaming the victim in fact I spoke against this ascended gear myself the day it was announced but this has gone so much further then that now! Its gotten to a point where people seem they feel they have to renounce the game or they’d be considered heretics against the horizontal progression phylosofy which is ironic because yes they’re the ones actually betraying horizontal progression cause the moment better gear become available even though its entirely uneeded to play Everything they still rushed to get it and cant stop themselves from repeating this content they say they really dislike until they get it!

Its most certainly seems a witch hunt to me!

Notice how a vocal minority (proven minority at least on the forum) uses the same method of attacking people, or rather than supporting arguments with FACTS and constructive posts.

I think nobody doubts that the patch have made a huge number of people more than displeased.

Feel free to browse internet to find VG media opinion on this….
You’ll find word like “failure, betrays etc etc etc”.

Another thing…
They said they introduced ONE new tier.

We could start debating if they instead introduced at least 3 new tiers.

Ascended, Ascended infused, and i heard another tier of infusion

NB infusion is not the upgrade in the slot but the quality of the item.

Now if they only extend agony out of fotm they just released 3 tiers…..

First costs just 50-70 golds and an really rare drop (acount bound), second 5 really rare drops and 40 golds…

Then you have infusions that actually are only white and blue but they could release many more….

I do not agree this is like wow, its actually worse as only korean grinding mmorpg are….NCsoft has experience in that….

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

It isn’t a weak argument. If you play now, you have to invest in a lot of gear (and possibly transmutation stones) that you are going to have to replace. So, you have to get gear now and get gear later. Sound like a treadmill? If they unlocked it all at once then it would be like another game releasing 3-4 “tiers” at once. But that doesn’t happen because it destroys the illusion of it not being an insane grind to the top. Even though “treadmill” might have to be replaced by “insanity” that wouldn’t somehow make it good.

Nope doesnt sound like a treadmill just like when we started the game saw 5 tiers of gear we didnt say ohh now I have common and will have to get fine quality which I will then have to replace with masterworks and then get rares on my way to exotic!

Yeah, because you didn’t skip whole tiers on your way… oh wait.
Basically any character playing normally could manage to be able to afford a full exotic set by the level 80 or shortly after, with no grinding necessary. On the way to lev 80 you could keep being clad in masters as soon as the first heart vendors with them appeared (which they do in starting 1-15 areas already), or just craft for cheap. Rares were nice extra from drops, but usually skipped completely.

On the other hand you could equip several characters in full exotics for the cost of one ascended piece – and lot of players will not have even close enough money and resources for that one piece at lev 80. That’s for backpiece (which requires additional token grinding or luck in RNG on top of that). Rings can be found only by RNG, after grinding through 10 fractal levels (which will become harder and harder with time, as more and more people will move to higher fractal levels)

Common->exotic jump was a gear grind, but it was designed to be on a bearable level. By extension, Exotic->ascended jump is well beyond bearable for anyone except hardcore grinders.

LordByron.8369:

Notice how a vocal minority (proven minority at least on the forum) uses the same method of attacking people, or rather than supporting arguments with FACTS and constructive posts.

I think nobody doubts that the patch have made a huge number of people more than displeased.

Feel free to browse internet to find VG media opinion on this….
You’ll find word like “failure, betrays etc etc etc”.

Another thing…
They said they introduced ONE new tier.

We could start debating if they instead introduced at least 3 new tiers.

Ascended, Ascended infused, and i heard another tier of infusion

NB infusion is not the upgrade in the slot but the quality of the item.

Now if they only extend agony out of fotm they just released 3 tiers…..

First costs just 50-70 golds and an really rare drop (acount bound), second 5 really rare drops and 40 golds…

Then you have infusions that actually are only white and blue but they could release many more….

I do not agree this is like wow, its actually worse as only korean grinding mmorpg are….NCsoft has experience in that….

If we look at the posts / what people were saying when Gw2 launched you’d find lots of people complaining you can finish it all in a week or two and there is nothing left to do once you reach level 80. I am sure you’ll agree 100% with me that was entirely inaccurate!

Just cause multiple people share the same opinion doesnt mean their argument is automatically correct!

As for infused ascended armor being a whole new tier… please do I even have to reply to this? Ascended gear is already less then a whole tier stats wise (9% when compared to 14%) but what do infusions provide? the once listed in the wiki say +5 precision and another one +5 vitality. even if every new tier is 100% better then the previous one. it will take 2 levels of infusions for ascended gear to reach the stats of a full tier and a whole 55 more infusion levels before ascended gear + infusions will reach a whole new tier of gear! Thats provided everyone goes for offensive infusions only. To me defensive infusions make a lot more sense to overcome FoTM which wouldn’t make your gear any better!

Can we please stick with the facts and not come up with wierd completely wrong theories such as this being 2 or 3 tiers of gears not 1!

Astralporing.1957:

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

It isn’t a weak argument. If you play now, you have to invest in a lot of gear (and possibly transmutation stones) that you are going to have to replace. So, you have to get gear now and get gear later. Sound like a treadmill? If they unlocked it all at once then it would be like another game releasing 3-4 “tiers” at once. But that doesn’t happen because it destroys the illusion of it not being an insane grind to the top. Even though “treadmill” might have to be replaced by “insanity” that wouldn’t somehow make it good.

Nope doesnt sound like a treadmill just like when we started the game saw 5 tiers of gear we didnt say ohh now I have common and will have to get fine quality which I will then have to replace with masterworks and then get rares on my way to exotic!

Yeah, because you didn’t skip whole tiers on your way… oh wait.
Basically any character playing normally could manage to be able to afford a full exotic set by the level 80 or shortly after, with no grinding necessary. On the way to lev 80 you could keep being clad in masters as soon as the first heart vendors with them appeared (which they do in starting 1-15 areas already), or just craft for cheap. Rares were nice extra from drops, but usually skipped completely.

On the other hand you could equip several characters in full exotics for the cost of one ascended piece – and lot of players will not have even close enough money and resources for that one piece at lev 80. That’s for backpiece (which requires additional token grinding or luck in RNG on top of that). Rings can be found only by RNG, after grinding through 10 fractal levels (which will become harder and harder with time, as more and more people will move to higher fractal levels)

Common->exotic jump was a gear grind, but it was designed to be on a bearable level. By extension, Exotic->ascended jump is well beyond bearable for anyone except hardcore grinders.

Well lets put it this way, first I did my personal story with gear I looted some I was a mixed of some masterworks some fine an perhaps a couple of rare dont remember. Then I leveled my tailoring and crafted myself some rares while leveling tailor to 400. Then I started crafting exotic armor, got the chest and legs done. Saw corrupted staff loved it and well started saving for the lodestones. I have enough money to just craft the rest of my gear to exotic all at once, or even just straight out buy it but never bothered because I like how my armor mixed between rare and exotic looks like and I can go through dungeons without even dieing once. Sometimes without even being downed once.

So in retrospect it would take 0 grind to get my exotic, still have a lot of “grind” to get my corrupted staff now that the bots are gone because prices of lodestones doubled. But Like I said before gear is so no important in this game it really doesnt matter what tier your wearing!

People want Ascended gear I get it, they should get them without grind! Arenanet already said they’re going to make Ascended gear available outside of FoTM so wait for that! work on your skins, level alts do what you enjoy! A backpack and a couple of rings will not change anything seriously!

Galen Grey.4709:

People want Ascended gear I get it, they should get them without grind! Arenanet already said they’re going to make Ascended gear available outside of FoTM so wait for that! work on your skins, level alts do what you enjoy! A backpack and a couple of rings will not change anything seriously!

The problem with this is that the pieces of ascended gear you can craft in the Mystic Forge are already a hell of a grind to get too. They are way to expensive, if the crafting recipes will look anything like that it won’t change anything.

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Just wait until the number grinders have obtained their ascended gear. Then what? Game over, or another “one-time gameplay improvement”?

Also note that the kind of gameplay that was improved is not the kind of gameplay that Anet had announced for GW2.

Galen Grey.4709:

If we look at the posts / what people were saying when Gw2 launched you’d find lots of people complaining you can finish it all in a week or two and there is nothing left to do once you reach level 80. I am sure you’ll agree 100% with me that was entirely inaccurate!

Just cause multiple people share the same opinion doesnt mean their argument is automatically correct!

Yes, I started seeing those complaints and wondered what game they were playing. I began playing at Headstart and reached lvl 80 in about 3 weeks. Just before the 11/16 patch, I was still enjoying the game and had plenty left to strive for. And I felt like I was playing the game a lot. I guess I do not understand why people need Arenanet to offer than things to “keep them playing.” How about playing a game because you enjoy it? And if you do not or no longer do, then stop playing it.

And how does keep people playing ensure that Arenanet meets its cash shop revenue projections. Yes, the assumption could be that the more people the more they will spend in the cash shop. However, what if they play but don’t spend money. Maybe they would spend if the game was fun and continued to add more fun things to do. Maybe they would spend if the cash shop offered better items.

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Arenanet has lost the connection with their original fanbase from GW1 by making GW2 a run off the mill grinding MMO. This is why people are pissed, and the gear threadmill is just another testament of that change of heart of Arenanet. They had something so unique, yet they make something so generic.

Galen Grey.4709:

There is still no vertical progression, a single new tier doesnt make it so unless there is some written law somewhere that say 5 tiers is okey to consider a game horizontal but 6 tiers makes it vertical! the only vertical progression they really introduced isnt the ascended gear itself its agony / infusion system in FoTM and that doesnt even kick in after level 10.

Galen, I must admit that you’re the most eloquent, silver-tongued apologist I’ve seen here so far. However, that does not make your arguments any more valid where you’re simply ignoring the truth that’s out there for all to see (who don’t close their eyes).

The new tier was announced as the “start of the progression initiative”. Not as the “final cornerstone of level-80-equipment.”

It was announced that we’d eventually have a full set of ascended items available. So to say that it’s only rings and back is disingenious.

Also, it has been said that better quality than rare infusions will come. Even if you’re only forced to keep the wheel spinning for infusions, that doesn’t really make it less of a treadmill.

You need to periodically update your equipment or you will, over time, become less powerful than players who do. This is my personal, generic definition of a treadmill. Please tell me which part of it is wrong or does not apply to GW2. Remember that ascended gear was introduced as “beginning of progression initiative” and that higher-quality infusions were already promised if you try to argue the definition does not apply to GW2.

You can ignore the writing on the wall. Unless you update your equipment regularly, you will, over time, fall behind your fellow players as far as survivability, DPS and utility (e.g. heals for others) are concerned. Tell me how this is less like WoW and more like GW1, please.

nachtnebel.9168:

Galen Grey.4709:

People want Ascended gear I get it, they should get them without grind! Arenanet already said they’re going to make Ascended gear available outside of FoTM so wait for that! work on your skins, level alts do what you enjoy! A backpack and a couple of rings will not change anything seriously!

The problem with this is that the pieces of ascended gear you can craft in the Mystic Forge are already a hell of a grind to get too. They are way to expensive, if the crafting recipes will look anything like that it won’t change anything.

well the idea is to have something that takes effort to craft so yeah I do expect they will require some involvement to do but since they’re not gating anything and provided like other crafting recipes they’d use materials you can get playing any content in the game would that be such a big problem?

Galen Grey.4709:

well the idea is to have something that takes effort to craft so yeah I do expect they will require some involvement to do but since they’re not gating anything and provided like other crafting recipes they’d use materials you can get playing any content in the game would that be such a big problem?

After you reached 80 it just takes a couple of hours to have a full exotic armor set. That’s acceptable. If getting a full ascended armor set takes more than that amount of time we have a problem. It doesn’t matter whether I have to access gated content to craft those items or not, it’s all about the time that is required to do so.

And since it currently takes days to just the mats you need for the ascended back piece I predict that we will have a huge problem.

dalendria.3762:

Galen Grey.4709:

If we look at the posts / what people were saying when Gw2 launched you’d find lots of people complaining you can finish it all in a week or two and there is nothing left to do once you reach level 80. I am sure you’ll agree 100% with me that was entirely inaccurate!

Just cause multiple people share the same opinion doesnt mean their argument is automatically correct!

Yes, I started seeing those complaints and wondered what game they were playing. I began playing at Headstart and reached lvl 80 in about 3 weeks. Just before the 11/16 patch, I was still enjoying the game and had plenty left to strive for. And I felt like I was playing the game a lot. I guess I do not understand why people need Arenanet to offer than things to “keep them playing.” How about playing a game because you enjoy it? And if you do not or no longer do, then stop playing it.

And how does keep people playing ensure that Arenanet meets its cash shop revenue projections. Yes, the assumption could be that the more people the more they will spend in the cash shop. However, what if they play but don’t spend money. Maybe they would spend if the game was fun and continued to add more fun things to do. Maybe they would spend if the cash shop offered better items.

I am 100% with you there! I had your same exact experiance!

I dont think this is strictly speaking just an exercise to maximize cash shop revenue I mean I am sure they care about that but more then that you dont want people quiting your MMO because they have nothing to do, you want everyone to enjoy themselves as much as possible!

Perhaps more so with Gw2 since player population plays a larger then usual important part in the game experiance. If you loose enough players WvW will become boring. Zones will get taken over by hostiles, Group events and Mini Bosses will become undoable etc..

Not saying thats where the game was headed, I think there were enough players enjoying the game as it was but I cant blame Arenanet for trying to provide content to the players who were not finding it!