Guys, take it to a PM, please. These sorts of discussions turn downhill quickly, and I don’t want to lose this thread over it.
Try this: When people use words like “community” or “we”, try not to get hung up too much on the semantics. No one sees a poster say “we” on a forum post and believes that they are talking about the entirety of the player base. They’re talking about their friends, or their community (e.g. the dungeon community, the PvP community, their guild, etc).
Try to see past the words and hear the arguments, and offer your different opinion if you have one. Making the accusation “HEY, YOU DON’T SPEAK FOR ME!” comes off as insecure and argumentative. No one here is trying to speak for anyone else — just offer your opinion in a constructive manner, and let your words show that there is dissent with their opinion.
Thanks for the on-topic portions of the discussion
Let’s keep this thread going strong!
People keep using words like what the player base wants. Some people think the “player base” wants new dungeons. I’m sure that’s true for a percentage of the playerbase, but I’m not so sure it’s true for the player base as a whole.
People talk about people logging in or not logging in. They may not be logging in but plenty of people seem to be.
The living story is hit and miss. On a well liked chapter, people log in more. The recent chapter has seen a lot of activity in my guild and on maps as well.
I think people should talk for themselves instead of “the community”. Because I don’t think this community speaks with one voice.
sigh
No offense Vayne but I often see those posts from you in threads that I like.
Not the first time I saw you claiming that some people are using the word “community” when talking about things that they want to see, either.Let me try to explain this to you as easy as I can:
x = the community of this game
y = Individuals (some claiming to be the “community” some not)
f = factor (In this case the amount of people)=> x = f* y
so…even if we pretend that there are only 20 ppl here (in this particular thread) that are claiming that they know what the community wants, and (not even close) 10 ppl that share your opinion, => f = 20-10
Don’t you see?
We ARE the community! All of us! Some don’t care about where this game is going. Most people do care and want to know.I am really not offending you! I just have the impression that you can’t see the meaning of the word “community”
Sorry but this isn’t close to true. When people say they’re speaking for the community, there’s an implication that the community as a whole wants something. There have been many pro mount threads, but no one would say the community as a whole wants mounts. It’s POSSIBLE a majority of the community does want them, but saying the community wants it because 10 people or 20 people or 30 people want it is wrong. In the case of mounts it’s particularly wrong because a large percentage of the community is against them? How many? I don’t know.
And that’s the point. I don’t know. So I’m not going to come in here and talk “for the community”. That’s a way of trying to make it look like you have numbers to support you.
When someone says people in the community want more dungeons, well…people in the DUNGEON community probably do. But that doesn’t mean everyone or even most people want it.
So now we have the question. If you’re not speaking for everyone and only your small demographic what does adding the words “the community” add to your argument?
At best, they add nothing to the argument. At worst, they’re misleading.
I’m part of the community too, and people sure as hell aren’t talking for me… most of the time anyway.
Yes but this thread is for people of said community that want to know were this game is headed.
Is it only living story?
Or will we get new spvp maps, classes, races, dungeons an wvwvw objectives.
Its not only 1 or the other mate.
But Im starting to agree, they dont want to say no to anybody since that will make people leave for sure.
Better to string people along aslong as possible, I for one havent done a story since s2e1 but I have loged in to unlock em all.
Edit
I forgot weapons still waiting for my Hammer as melee aoe for my Necro make it happen
, sure let other classes get some luv to if you must hehe
(edited by Linken.6345)
(edited by spoj.9672)
(edited by munkiman.3068)
Living Story very much shows that you want to give something to the players. And to your minds, it shows a big commitment to that end. But to certain sections of the playerbase (including myself, although I really do like what Living Story gives me), it feels like you have your own direction and we don’t understand it. I guess if either traditional additions to an MMO or Living Story had to be cut, I’d rather see some new weapons/skills/races/professions than see what happens next every two weeks (with the same all of those things).
I’m one of those people who loves GW2 and wants to see it be the best game it can be. And I know that means a lot of different things to a lot of different players. But certain things can be polarizing and leave longtime players feeling out in the cold.
Well…the story of GW2 is GREAT! The lore is fantastic! There is (almost feel like saying “was”) so much potential! …
So…Yes LW episodes could count. But not this way.
So…There really isn’t more? That’s all? LW and ESL? This is this games direction?
Some of us are starting to feel like the “story is great” and “lore is fantastic” should perhaps be relegated to the past tense as well over at https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/My-Greatest-Fear-Plotline – because we have clearly identified ways in which the game’s lore and story no longer makes sense. While not everyone in the thread loved the old content, there seems to be nearly universal consensus that the way it is now leaves all scratching their heads. This is an example of a polarizing change that leaves old players feeling out in the cold, although it also makes it worse for new players as well.
I think the issue with Living Story is context. Looking at what you’re delivering, in a vacuum, yeah it’s easy to look and say “I don’t understand these fans, we are giving them stuff.” But when you step back and also look at those threads that identify longstanding problems (months, years old – and not the ones where it’s clear that the perceived “problem” is simply that Person A’s interests aren’t met when everyone else is fine) you start to see that, from a player perspective, Anet is marching to its own beat even if it feels like they are deaf to or ignoring basic bugfixes and necessary QoL for retaining players.
Gaile,
As a longtime fan of your work all the way back to Guild Wars 1 and the legacy The Frog left there, I have to say I love your work!
But I certainly don’t envy your position right now.
When I read the post I quote above I felt like I was reading the story of the entire forums as they have been for a very long time now.
I feel like this post illustrates how a lot of us are feeling on the forums these days and I think the answer to making a lot of fans happy and probably drawing and retaining more customers as well is in it.
Time and energy constraints probably play a huge role in why it’s hard to make communication work. And I know it’s not easy to sift through these forums to figure out who just has a chip on their shoulder because they’re having a bad day or life or something and who has a genuine observation or idea that can help the game.
I really hope this post gives some insight. I feel like devs and players are speaking two different languages and I just want to help bridge that gap. Hope you don’t think I was trying to bite your head off <3 Gaile!
This post says how I have been feeling so well. We want to work with the devs and talk with the devs. But our minds come from very different places because we have experienced everything up to this point differently. As a fan of The Frog I have to say that I hope this message gets through to you and you can see things from our perspective. And thank you again for coming here even though some people express their ideas in what seems like a negative way. I know their hearts are in the right place and they just want to help. Hopefully you can see that these are just diamonds in the rough.
Gaile, you’re a superstar and we love you, but you have to understand that it feels like we the players and you the devs/red posters talk over each other or at best each other a lot more than we actually understand each other. And I know you are the person who can fix that Gaile!
(edited by dlonie.6547)
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
I do commend you for the stoicism displayed when conversing with Anet, if nothing else.
It’s rather certain I myself would feel at least somewhat offended by what are often patronising/disingenuous replies and obvious-as-daylight red-herrings tossed to divert the attention from key issues.
Now…I understand that feeling. Oh, how I understand that feeling. What I keep reminding myself is that Gaile is not the one who can make any of the changes we need, and she can’t even comment on them in a meaningful way, due to the policies that restrict her (which is exactly what this thread is trying to call attention to ).
So she’s doing what she can — the “do you want spoilers?” and “is living story enough?” questions do come off as red herrings. But given her options under ArenaNet policy, I think this is really about the extent to which she can engage in communication on the topic, and I do appreciate it. She’s shaping the conversation to rule out easy answers and prompt responses that will be more persuasive to the Decision Makers. That’s how I see it, anyways
Now that the weekend is over, I hope to see some of the discussion trickle up to the Decision Makers, so that one of them just might grace us with a reply
That aside, I think you should intervene before your thread gets (locked) down.
I edited that to avoid throwing more fuel on the fire ;-) I’m doing my best!! So far, self moderation has worked well for the first 6 pages of this thread, I’m hoping we can return to the topic soon.
I’ll recap some of the opinions that I thought captured the bulk of the argument:
<snip for brevity>
tl;dr? Quality content requires flexibility about development — hard deadlines that a story introduces are bad. New content/overhauls should not happen in a time crunch. For this reason: No. LS is not a sufficient content delivery medium.
I think LS1 did what it was supposed to accomplish, but it did it while the player base was at a high and while communities in PvE were still intact. There just has been too many mistakes, too much “lets try this” stuff. The megaserver addition hurt a fairly large amount of players who were accustom to playing with there communities or who enjoyed the challenge of world events that were less populated. The fact that these events are practically trivial now, makes me really not want to bother.
Personally i liked LS1 much more than LS2 .. don’t know .. not really a fan of these
instances, especially if you get a DC or it is bugged like the last one for me.
And else i just play it once and thats it .. while LS2 every 2 weeks there was something
that kept me busy for at least 3-4 days.
And yeah .. i did a lot World Events before megaserver .. but after that i made some
days runs after the daily reset, but now i very seldom do them anymore
I do commend you for the stoicism displayed when conversing with Anet, if nothing else.
It’s rather certain I myself would feel at least somewhat offended by what are often patronising/disingenuous replies and obvious-as-daylight red-herrings tossed to divert the attention from key issues.Now…I understand that feeling. Oh, how I understand that feeling. What I keep reminding myself is that Gaile is not the one who can make any of the changes we need, and she can’t even comment on them in a meaningful way, due to the policies that restrict her (which is exactly what this thread is trying to call attention to
So she’s doing what she can — the “do you want spoilers?” and “is living story enough?” questions do come off as red herrings. But given her options under ArenaNet policy, I think this is really about the extent to which she can engage in communication on the topic, and I do appreciate it. She’s shaping the conversation to rule out easy answers and prompt responses that will be more persuasive to the Decision Makers. That’s how I see it, anyways
Now that the weekend is over, I hope to see some of the discussion trickle up to the Decision Makers, so that one of them just might grace us with a reply
That aside, I think you should intervene before your thread gets (locked) down.
I edited that to avoid throwing more fuel on the fire ;-) I’m doing my best!! So far, self moderation has worked well for the first 6 pages of this thread, I’m hoping we can return to the topic soon.
This post is, at its core, about communication. While they threw Gaile in the line of fire, which is a good move IMO and one i’ve requested for awhile now, we are still stuck with company policy. We can all beg (and have) that they move away from tight-lipped discussion and the “it’s not off the table” talk, but at the end of the day, it’s also going to be on their terms.
Oddly enough, it’s the worry that it’s going to bit them in the hind-quarters, if they mention stuff they are or aren’t working on/towards and when they basically go silent it does the same thing too. Either way, I too wish they would refocus and clarify, regardless of the outcome. A meaty state-of-the-game post in the news would be something they could be doing once a month at least. My worry is they just don’t have anything to report.
(edited by munkiman.3068)
Personally i liked LS1 much more than LS2 .. don’t know .. not really a fan of these
instances, especially if you get a DC or it is bugged like the last one for me.
And else i just play it once and thats it .. while LS2 every 2 weeks there was something
that kept me busy for at least 3-4 days.And yeah .. i did a lot World Events before megaserver .. but after that i made some
days runs after the daily reset, but now i very seldom do them anymore
This is another issue i wish they would address, the D/C from instances. There is nothing worse than put 20 minutes into an instance only to get D/C’d at the end, then to have to sit through the dialog again or do the challenges over. I’d like to see them at least reserve the instance for 5 minutes or so so you can pick up where you left off, even if your dead mid-fight. Seems like a simple thing that would improve the system.
I do commend you for the stoicism displayed when conversing with Anet, if nothing else.
It’s rather certain I myself would feel at least somewhat offended by what are often patronising/disingenuous replies and obvious-as-daylight red-herrings tossed to divert the attention from key issues.Now…I understand that feeling. Oh, how I understand that feeling. What I keep reminding myself is that Gaile is not the one who can make any of the changes we need, and she can’t even comment on them in a meaningful way, due to the policies that restrict her (which is exactly what this thread is trying to call attention to
So she’s doing what she can — the “do you want spoilers?” and “is living story enough?” questions do come off as red herrings. But given her options under ArenaNet policy, I think this is really about the extent to which she can engage in communication on the topic, and I do appreciate it. She’s shaping the conversation to rule out easy answers and prompt responses that will be more persuasive to the Decision Makers. That’s how I see it, anyways
Now that the weekend is over, I hope to see some of the discussion trickle up to the Decision Makers, so that one of them just might grace us with a reply
That aside, I think you should intervene before your thread gets (locked) down.
I edited that to avoid throwing more fuel on the fire ;-) I’m doing my best!! So far, self moderation has worked well for the first 6 pages of this thread, I’m hoping we can return to the topic soon.
This post is, at its core, about communication. While they threw Gaile in the line of fire, which is a good move IMO and one i’ve requested for awhile now, we are still stuck with company policy. We can all beg (and have) that they move away from tight-lipped discussion and the “it’s not off the table” talk, but at the end of the day, it’s also going to be on their terms.
Oddly enough, it’s the worry that it’s going to bit them in the hind-quarters, if they mention stuff they are or aren’t working on/towards and when they basically go silent it does the same thing too. Either way, I too wish they would refocus and clarify, regardless of the outcome. A meaty state-of-the-game post in the news would be something they could be doing once a month at least. My worry is they just don’t have anything to report.
Am I the only one who think about this at the Threw Gaile at the line of fire
And I second the “Meaty state of the game post” atleast once every 1-2 months depending on how thick it really is
(edited by MFoy.3284)
[quote=4566605;Linken.6345:
Am I the only one who think about this at the Threw Gaile at the line of fire
[/quote]
I’m not sure the forums could handle 50 of Gaile. It’s a terrifying prospect.
(edited by Belenwyn.8674)
(edited by dlonie.6547)
Gaile was not asking whether the promise of more LW is sufficient to sate our desires for intel, just whether it counts.
Yes, this is correct. When I see comments like “there’s nothing new to do” or “we need fresh content” it just occurred to me to ask if you’re taking LW into account, if you see that as new content and pretty significant chunks of it, at that. (Admittedly, it may not be what you personally have requested, but if the statement is “there’s nothing new” that doesn’t seem quite right.)
Thanks everyone for not barking at me when I asked the question.
But it’s not quite wrong either is it?
A lot of people I know, myself included, bought Guild Wars 2 under the impression that there would be boxed expansion-like products i.e Cantha, Elona etc., similar to how Guild Wars 1 content was produced.
Now that this hasn’t happened, and doesn’t seem to be in the works, they have left the game. Living World has not enticed them back. I don’t know how to put it anymore simply.
Bravo for a great thread!
Gaile was not asking whether the promise of more LW is sufficient to sate our desires for intel, just whether it counts.
Yes, this is correct. When I see comments like “there’s nothing new to do” or “we need fresh content” it just occurred to me to ask if you’re taking LW into account, if you see that as new content and pretty significant chunks of it, at that. (Admittedly, it may not be what you personally have requested, but if the statement is “there’s nothing new” that doesn’t seem quite right.)
Thanks everyone for not barking at me when I asked the question.
But it’s not quite wrong either is it?
A lot of people I know, myself included, bought Guild Wars 2 under the impression that there would be boxed expansion-like products i.e Cantha, Elona etc., similar to how Guild Wars 1 content was produced.
Now that this hasn’t happened, and doesn’t seem to be in the works, they have left the game. Living World has not enticed them back. I don’t know how to put it anymore simply.
Bravo for a great thread!
Well, you know what happens when you assume something, as you did when you purchased GW2. You created an artificial expectation without any knowledge that what you were expecting was going to come forth. Anyone that did this shouldn’t be putting any blame on Arena.net for not delivering but only placing the blame on themselves, since they haven’t gotten something that they thought was rightfully their’s, when in essence the only thing that is/was rightfully anyone’s was the game they purchased for $40 – 60(or what ever price someone paid).
Remember, when the game was released they said nothing about expansions…and just because every other game does it, does not mean that every game will have them.
P.S.> Above comment is the devil’s advocate approach, but also contains some truth.
Gaile was not asking whether the promise of more LW is sufficient to sate our desires for intel, just whether it counts.
Yes, this is correct. When I see comments like “there’s nothing new to do” or “we need fresh content” it just occurred to me to ask if you’re taking LW into account, if you see that as new content and pretty significant chunks of it, at that. (Admittedly, it may not be what you personally have requested, but if the statement is “there’s nothing new” that doesn’t seem quite right.)
Thanks everyone for not barking at me when I asked the question.
But it’s not quite wrong either is it?
A lot of people I know, myself included, bought Guild Wars 2 under the impression that there would be boxed expansion-like products i.e Cantha, Elona etc., similar to how Guild Wars 1 content was produced.
Now that this hasn’t happened, and doesn’t seem to be in the works, they have left the game. Living World has not enticed them back. I don’t know how to put it anymore simply.
Bravo for a great thread!
Well, you know what happens when you assume something, as you did when you purchased GW2. You created an artificial expectation without any knowledge that what you were expecting was going to come forth. Anyone that did this shouldn’t be putting any blame on Arena.net for not delivering but only placing the blame on themselves, since they haven’t gotten something that they thought was rightfully their’s, when in essence the only thing that is/was rightfully anyone’s was the game they purchased for $40 – 60(or what ever price someone paid).
Remember, when the game was released they said nothing about expansions…and just because every other game does it, does not mean that every game will have them.
P.S.> Above comment is the devil’s advocate approach, but also contains some truth.
it wasnt until after the game came out that they started saying they werent working on expansion type stuff
Johanson added, “On top of a large amount of free bonus content, we will be expanding on offerings in the Black Lion Trading Company going forward, as well as be doing large-scale expansion content down the road.”
so the idea that they would eventually give you expansion level content is not something players decided on their own when they bought the game.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Hey Gaile, is there any other discussion that you’d find helpful on this topic? I’d like to make sure that our concerns on this issue are understood and as clear as they can be.
Please understand that I’m not demanding or expecting anything, but out of curiosity, will our concerns with the silence policy be communicated to those who have control over the decision? Can you keep us in the loop on your team’s handling of this concern? Again, no expectations, but it would go a long way for us to know whether our efforts here are wasted or not.
Edited to add: I feel like I’m harassing you on this, but I (and I’m sure, most other posters here) really want to work with you and your team to see if we can fix some of these problems facing us. We both want the same thing: A better GW2 with a healthy ANet/player relationship, and a fan base that is absolutely pumped about playing the game
(edited by dlonie.6547)
People can only say the living world isn’t content if they’re dismissing new zones as well. And new enemies with new mechanics. And new dynamic events.
A few months ago, everyone was saying new zones, new skills, new weapons, new classes, new races.
We’ve gotten two new zones, but everyone says the Living Story is a couple of hours.
If that’s all the play you can get from a new zone, no MMO is the world is going to be able to provide enough content.
Not everyone plays for open world event stuff.
There are multiple parts of the game, focusing on only one and abandoning the rest is why many people are frustrated (btw, not using everybody/community)
I don’t want those things you said people were asking for, I just want more dungeons and maybe something in WvW as I’m primarily a dungeoneer and secondary being WvW. Open world stuff is where I go when I have nothing better to do and want to soak up some rewards for little to no effort.
So again, the question and point of this thread is to try and get ANet to let us know if we should give up, or should we hold out hope?
People can only say the living world isn’t content if they’re dismissing new zones as well. And new enemies with new mechanics. And new dynamic events.
A few months ago, everyone was saying new zones, new skills, new weapons, new classes, new races.
We’ve gotten two new zones, but everyone says the Living Story is a couple of hours.
If that’s all the play you can get from a new zone, no MMO is the world is going to be able to provide enough content.
Not everyone plays for open world event stuff.
There are multiple parts of the game, focusing on only one and abandoning the rest is why many people are frustrated (btw, not using everybody/community
I don’t want those things you said people were asking for, I just want more dungeons and maybe something in WvW as I’m primarily a dungeoneer and secondary being WvW. Open world stuff is where I go when I have nothing better to do and want to soak up some rewards for little to no effort.
So again, the question and point of this thread is to try and get ANet to let us know if we should give up, or should we hold out hope?
Nothing to do with what I said mate. I’ve seen again and again the words the living story content, as in the new updates are two hours of content.
If Anet introduced a new dungeon, even though I don’t prefer dungeons to other content, I wouldn’t say no content has been released, nor would I say an update has two hours of content if I did the dungeon once in two hours and never did it again.
It’s disingenuous, it’s unfair and it’s ignoring a lot of hard work and effort. Particularly seeing as how well the new update has been received.
I get that different people want different things. It’s no reason to dismiss what’s there because you don’t play it though.
(edited by Xillllix.3485)
Alerno — Taking what you have (and everyone else has) put on the table I do wonder something. I want to ask, and hope nobody will bite my head off here.
You mention wanting to know there will be more to the game. The new and continuing episodes of the Living World count towards that, right? The fact that players know there’s a team working on new content and features, and that there are releases on a regular basis? I fully understand that may not fulfill every desire, but it does show a continuing commitment to “new stuff” for us players, wouldn’t you agree?
How many times do we have to say it -_-
We understand there is new stuff, all we wonder is are there changes that target us. For instance, ALL your new stuff is meaningless to someone that plays only WvW for your game and never cared about your world (PvE). One of many examples that can be given. That is why people ask for a roadmap. -_- …
Gaile was not asking whether the promise of more LW is sufficient to sate our desires for intel, just whether it counts.
Yes, this is correct. When I see comments like “there’s nothing new to do” or “we need fresh content” it just occurred to me to ask if you’re taking LW into account, if you see that as new content and pretty significant chunks of it, at that. (Admittedly, it may not be what you personally have requested, but if the statement is “there’s nothing new” that doesn’t seem quite right.)
Thanks everyone for not barking at me when I asked the question.
Again, from the perspective of those that only WvW or only sPvP, you have done nothing. So saying “there’s nothing new” has to be put in the perspective of those that say that.
Just looked at the forums and the same major issues that were being duscussed during beta and at launch are still present in the game.