Guild Wars 2

You should waypoint.

Cyninja.2954:

Player is now back in action and does his 10k dps. He would have to do full 30 seconds of 10k dps to even break even on the investment of time on people ressurecting him. Now let’s multiply this example up by 3-4 people dead. Am I getting some where?

Yeah, you’re proving my point. It only takes 30 seconds to recover all of the lost hit points, which is exactly what I was saying. Except I didn’t include specific numbers. Also, I was arguing only for 1 player to rez, which takes 5 times as long. But, by limiting it to 1 rezzer, it becomes an easy comparison to make: if it takes longer to walk back than to be rezzed, it’s better to be rezzed.

However, I think it takes longer than 5 seconds to rez someone with 5 players (which works in your favor). I’ll try timing it a few times to see what the real number is. Every second it takes favors your argument.

This statement of yours also added another facet to your argument that I hadn’t thought of before: loss of armor. When a player dies and is rezzed, his armor is less effective. Therefore, he can put out fewer DPS, and is more likely to die again that he was earlier. I’m not sure how to quantify this, but I think it serves as a kind of tie-breaker. (It has to be significantly longer to run back than to be rezzed, not a simple equation.)

My observation is down scaling occurred immediately.

But the boss might have base HP. So if too many people died, it become inefficient at some point.

laokoko.7403:

My observation is down scaling occurred immediately.

But the boss might have base HP. So if too many people died, it become inefficient at some point.

I think it’s more like 3-5 seconds before downscaling occurs.

But, there also seems to be a problem. If 5 people start a boss, they can usually frequently defeat it. But, if 25 people start on a boss, and 20 of them die and WP out, the remaining 5 will be obliterated in short order. So, I don’t think the downscaling follows the same scale and/or timing that upscaling the same boss instance did.

Daddicus.6128:

laokoko.7403:

My observation is down scaling occurred immediately.

But the boss might have base HP. So if too many people died, it become inefficient at some point.

I think it’s more like 3-5 seconds before downscaling occurs.

But, there also seems to be a problem. If 5 people start a boss, they can usually frequently defeat it. But, if 25 people start on a boss, and 20 of them die and WP out, the remaining 5 will be obliterated in short order. So, I don’t think the downscaling follows the same scale and/or timing that upscaling the same boss instance did.

I was doing a world events in an coordinates group. About 20 people died, and was told to teleport out. And the fight actually become faster.

Weather or not dead people on the ground contribute to scaling I dont’ know. But it seemed to me if people way point the boss will scale down.

That’s only my basic observation, can’t say it’s tested extensively. Only way to know for sure is do test on it.

There was some post on Reddit that I’m sure someone better at using reddit than I can find about it.

The tests done there indicated that the game detected any player within 1800 range of a mob and scaled it up accordingly. This included dead players or even afk players.
This is purely in terms of boss fighting rather than event scaling.

However, this is only applicable up to a certain point. Bosses scale up to a cap and then wont scale any further. This means that if there are over X amount of players then waypointing out wont make any difference. The value of X will change depending on which boss it is (Tequatl will probably be different from Shadow Behemoth)

So if you’re on a very active map, the chances are you staying dead isn’t going to affect the outcome of the fight from a scaling point of view but you will be subtracting damage from the boss while people are stopped trying to res you. They might even go down while trying which means less damage on the boss and more time ressing.

Tl;DR
yes you should always waypoint if you’re dead and your own party isn’t ressing you.
however in most cases the actual scaling of the boss wont be affected

I don’t understand why you still try to argument for “rezz dead people” (at least it seems like it for me). You got all core facts that clearly show that dead people using wp is the only good solution!

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/26vke4/boss_blitz_scaling_revelead/
“Defeated players and out-of-combat players also count.” -> Defeated have to wp away.

How Cyninja wrote it great:

Player is now back in action and does his 10k dps. He would have to do full 30 seconds of 10k dps to even break even on the investment of time on people ressurecting him. Now let’s multiply this example up by 3-4 people dead. Am I getting some where?

So especially at vw if even one player rezzes a dead one, the revived one NEVER will put enough dmg on the boss to compensate the loss. -> Only solution, dead wp away!

On top off this 2 points come things like tequatl where obviously anyone who trys to rezz a dead person is wasting everyones time. Especially at tequatl where the wp isn’t far away, everyone has to wp instead of hurting all others.

Basically in conclusion at any point ingame dead people should use the next wp. There is no reason at all to stay dead and to wait until someone rezzes.

Daddicus.6128:

One problem, though, is that it’s not infinite. Beyond a certain number of players (10, if his data is still accurate), the scaling up is less than the player adds to the battle. So, it’s bad to lose players, since the downscaling brings the numbers down to a new number that slightly favors the boss.

Not everyone is equal. 3 well played zerkers will easily outperform 100 random players.

Have you ever seen a breach fail? It’s possible to solo them. Ever complained about a lack of numbers at Vinewrath? It only takes 4 people per lane. (from personal experience)

As long as you have enough decent players to meet the minimum requirements, events would never fail if people who couldn’t pull their own weight simply tagged and left. Those who fail are simply requiring others to do their portion of the work for them. How contribution works really needs to be changed, but then it wouldn’t be casual friendly.

I nearly always wp + run back, but usually I don’t mind rezzing other people, it depends on the boss.

At Golem Mark 2, it’s really quick to wp and run back. Or if it’s nearly done you can wait to be rezzed after, I don’t usually (esp. as I can get my armour fixed on the way back!), but I don’t mind if people do wait.

On some of the low level bosses like Svanir Shaman, I’m happy to rez people as soon as they get downed because a lot of low level players do this boss, and of course they get downed very easily, and often don’t know the ropes yet anyway. I can do enough damage to get credit from a couple of hits so it’s no loss to me to rez people there.

Also at Karka Queen I rez people, because it’s another one where even good players can get downed very suddenly, and it can be a long run from the nearest wp with not much time to make it, as KQ goes down very fast when there are a lot of players. I’ve been rezzed there a few times on my squishies, and I’ve been very grateful for it

I think what I’m saying is, it depends on the boss, and it depends on the player; on a level 80 char I think it’s good to rez lower level players who get downed, we all know what it’s like having that kitteny low level armour (and, thanks to the npe, no traits), it’s good to help people out if you can, and let’s face it, on a level 80, you can Equally though, on a level 80 char I wouldn’t expect other players to have to look out for me. Nice to get rezzed if someone does that for me but I would generally expect at that level to be able to look after myself, and help people who are on lower level chars.

Greyhound.2058:

I nearly always wp + run back, but usually I don’t mind rezzing other people, it depends on the boss.

At Golem Mark 2, it’s really quick to wp and run back. Or if it’s nearly done you can wait to be rezzed after, I don’t usually (esp. as I can get my armour fixed on the way back!), but I don’t mind if people do wait.

On some of the low level bosses like Svanir Shaman, I’m happy to rez people as soon as they get downed because a lot of low level players do this boss, and of course they get downed very easily, and often don’t know the ropes yet anyway. I can do enough damage to get credit from a couple of hits so it’s no loss to me to rez people there.

Also at Karka Queen I rez people, because it’s another one where even good players can get downed very suddenly, and it can be a long run from the nearest wp with not much time to make it, as KQ goes down very fast when there are a lot of players. I’ve been rezzed there a few times on my squishies, and I’ve been very grateful for it

I think what I’m saying is, it depends on the boss, and it depends on the player; on a level 80 char I think it’s good to rez lower level players who get downed, we all know what it’s like having that kitteny low level armour (and, thanks to the npe, no traits), it’s good to help people out if you can, and let’s face it, on a level 80, you can Equally though, on a level 80 char I wouldn’t expect other players to have to look out for me. Nice to get rezzed if someone does that for me but I would generally expect at that level to be able to look after myself, and help people who are on lower level chars.

This is my point too. A lot depends on which boss one is fighting and how far away the waypoint is in the first place, and also who it is that is fighting it. Golem Mk II is really close to the WP, but VW is not.

In the math example given, the numbers are mostly correct, and I’m still sticking to what I said for the following reasons:

10k dps per person, 0k dps from the dead player
5 rezzing is -50k dps for 5 seconds = 250k damage lost (the 50k from the already dead player can’t count here because they aren’t contributing before the rez)
Even if we account for dodges and damage taken while rezzing, let’s say a factor of 1.5, that gives us 37.5 seconds of that one player needing to stay alive and do their 10k dps in order to make up for the lost damage. A little over half a minute for some fights is a very small amount of time (like VW). For fights like Fire Elemental, which last maybe 10-15 seconds, this is obviously not worth it. How fast can you run back from the SW waypoint all the way to VW? I’d wager it takes a considerably longer time than 37.5 seconds.

It’s not a simple yes or no answer. It depends on how long the fight is, how much of the fight is left, how far away the WP is, how dangerous it is to rez, and how long the player will stay alive after having been rezzed.

Something else to be factored in on the side for WPing out-
How many times have you been downed? Don’t you start to lose health at a fair clip after each time you’re rezed? You get a Yellow Arrow, then a Red then… /:
If you’ve been Defeated once already, and A Kind Soul has rezed you- If you go down again shortly thereafter you -should- WP out on fights it’s feasible to. It will give you time to recover from the status that lowers your healthpool. It’s so much easier to go Down again after your first rez.
I try to revive Downed Players when I can, but I almost never revive Defeated ones unless it’s in a wholly hostile area.
Likewise, even if I notice A Kind Soul helping me from a Defeated state, I will WP out and run back unless it’s a very long run. I do this as a courtesy to the others around me. It was my fault I died in the first place, therefore I must take responsibility to get myself back in the fray upon myself as well.

True- I have died from lack of skill, lack of knowing the fight, my doorbell ringing, my husband calling me, the dog jumping in my lap and even true-honest-lag-because-“reasons” (given by my ISP)- Any host of things can get you killed. You can talk it up or down all you like.
No one is perfect, and no one is saved from ever being Defeated simply because they can claim to be superior or have ideal gear or specs. You have no idea who is on the other end of the line. Please remember this, and try to avoid degrading others in your quest for elitism.

Daddicus.6128:

Cyninja.2954:

Player is now back in action and does his 10k dps. He would have to do full 30 seconds of 10k dps to even break even on the investment of time on people ressurecting him. Now let’s multiply this example up by 3-4 people dead. Am I getting some where?

Yeah, you’re proving my point. It only takes 30 seconds to recover all of the lost hit points, which is exactly what I was saying. Except I didn’t include specific numbers. Also, I was arguing only for 1 player to rez, which takes 5 times as long. But, by limiting it to 1 rezzer, it becomes an easy comparison to make: if it takes longer to walk back than to be rezzed, it’s better to be rezzed.

However, I think it takes longer than 5 seconds to rez someone with 5 players (which works in your favor). I’ll try timing it a few times to see what the real number is. Every second it takes favors your argument.

This statement of yours also added another facet to your argument that I hadn’t thought of before: loss of armor. When a player dies and is rezzed, his armor is less effective. Therefore, he can put out fewer DPS, and is more likely to die again that he was earlier. I’m not sure how to quantify this, but I think it serves as a kind of tie-breaker. (It has to be significantly longer to run back than to be rezzed, not a simple equation.)

The numbers I gave where an example. I reality the numbers are way worse and not in favor of rezzing.

Also the argument that we are accounting for 1 rezzer makes no sense. 1 rezzer takes 5 times as long kitten to get someone up. Result = the loss in total damage is the same, the time it takes for the dead person to make up for it is the same, just the event timer has expired more.

Daddicus.6128:

Except I didn’t include specific numbers. Also, I was arguing only for 1 player to rez, which takes 5 times as long. But, by limiting it to 1 rezzer, it becomes an easy comparison to make: if it takes longer to walk back than to be rezzed, it’s better to be rezzed.

Incorrect. You lose 2 times the dps (1nce from the dead + 1nce from the rezzer). So no, it means if the times to run back is (2 x time it takes to rezz) it might make sense. Since rezzing someone on your own takes about 30 seconds or more solo while in combat, make that at least 1 minute of walking time. You can get very far in 1 minute in gw2.

It’s simple, listen to what most people say, if completely dead, waypoint.

tovadaun.6304:

I do this as a courtesy to the others around me.

It’s no courtesy to me; I want you fighting, not jogging back from a waypoint (with noted exceptions like MKII).

Waypoint, always. Not only would it be faster for you to just run back, but you also make it harder to res people who are legitimately downed.

Daddicus.6128:

tovadaun.6304:

I do this as a courtesy to the others around me.

It’s no courtesy to me; I want you fighting, not jogging back from a waypoint (with noted exceptions like MKII).

Almost every one in this thread has explained that waypointing is almost always better instead of rezzing someone fully dead.

You can stay stubborn and try to find excuses for being lazy and waiting for someone to ressurect you, or you can do every other player around you a favor and take the social approach and walk if fully dead.

The amount of events where ressurecting really would be beneficial can be counted on one hand, and most of those are not reworked old meta events with no or insanely long timers. Most newer events (and going by what we can see in the beta) do NOT and will NOT benefit ressurecting fully dead people.

Cyninja.2954:

MiniEquine.6014:

eithinan.9841:

The issue that was addressed above is the only issue here that matters between a good or bad run.

Whether the dead scale the boss or not the people rezzing certainly count towards scaling and are not doing their share of the DPS. I believe that the dead don’t count towards scaling based on…

RoseofGilead.8907:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_event#Event_scaling

“Events can detect that players have not performed any actions relating to the event within a period of time and will scale down the event accordingly.”

That being said, it will usually take longer for someone (or a couple of people) in combat to rez a dead person than it would for that dead person to waypoint and run back.

this was the second post in this thread.

you are in the way when you dont WP when dead. But thats it.

The dead do count towards scaling for a “period of time”. How long that period of time is does have an effect on whether it’s worth it or not. However, 5 people can rez a person from fully dead to alive in only a couple of seconds, so is it really even worth not rezzing them? They are able to get back into the fight and contribute additional damage that otherwise wouldn’t have been there.

Also, no, it never takes as much time for somebody to be rezzed than it does for them to WP and run back. If there’s an instance it does, then it means there’s a fight almost quite literally on top of a waypoint. (MKII is not on top of it, but the AoE damage is a good reason to tell people to run back)

No, simply no. Let’s not even get into the risk of people standing there for 5 seconds in 1 place and maybe getting wiped out. Let’s just do some simple math.

For this let’s assume perfect reactions and a base 10k dps per player.

1 player dead = -10k dps
5 players ressurecting him = -50k dps

player is dead for 5 seconds = 5 x (10k+50k) = 300k dps loss

Player is now back in action and does his 10k dps. He would have to do full 30 seconds of 10k dps to even break even on the investment of time on people ressurecting him. Now let’s multiply this example up by 3-4 people dead. Am I getting some where?

It is NOT worth ressurecting a dead player for damage purposes. Period.

EDIT: and just to be clear. I did not factor in for ressurectors dying, players having to evade post ressurection, boss mechanics that allow for only period of time to do damage, etcetc. All of those work most of the time even more against ressurecting.

You’re off by about 20%. You forget the dead person also went through the downed state, where their damage is utter crap.

Frankly, it’s simple. Waypointing if you die (no one gives a kitten about how you died in the first place) means you’re out of the way of others, and not dragging them into a potentially deadly situation because you dont want to pay 2 silver.

Tbh, I think the easiest solution would be to make dead players pseudo-ambient targets. That way you may not deal damage to them, but you can certainly punt their corpse so kittening far away, they might as well waypoint. Or enemies as well. It’d be nice to watch a couple of teq’s waves scatter corpses around the beach and out of the way.

Cyninja.2954:

Incorrect. You lose 2 times the dps (1nce from the dead + 1nce from the rezzer). So no, it means if the times to run back is (2 x time it takes to rezz) it might make sense. Since rezzing someone on your own takes about 30 seconds or more solo while in combat, make that at least 1 minute of walking time. You can get very far in 1 minute in gw2.

It’s simple, listen to what most people say, if completely dead, waypoint.

1 minute is enough to run from Camp Resolve to Hidden Depths waypoint
or from Hidden Depths to top lane.

35s to top lane from camp resolve if skritt tunnels are open(they stay open for around 10 minutes).

I’ve been slapped plenty of times at Dwayna and didn’t go down, but then I’m not in full zerker build. Same with grenth when it glitches and doesn’t show rings before you bounce multiple times. That’s just unavoidable, and when I do die I promptly TP out if there is more than 25% health on risen high priest (for the example). It’s just about being considerate to other players, I realize that the universe doesn’t revolve around me, and I have time to make it back before the end of the phase. Of course if it’s a wipe and less than 25% health, I still WP. But like I’ve said, I’ve seen people lay there at Lyss, 30sec run from a WP, just demanding a revive. Sure, they can lay there and watch the chest decay for all I care.

Daddicus.6128:

Example: 20 characters are fighting a boss. One dies. It was claimed that it would assist the remaining 19 if he WPed out.

What I did was extend the argument to the 19th player. And the 18th player. And so on down to 1 player remaining. By the argument, this one player can beat the boss.

If the scaling worked well, that would be the case. As it is, each boss has a “sweet spot” of number of people where scaling is most advantageous for the players. Adding people over that point makes things worse. For example, SW underground champions are best done with only a few people – 1-3 people that know what they are doing will finish the fight much sooner than a big zerg.

Additionally, depending on builds and skills, some people offer less dps than others. Those people, by simply being present, make things worse.

Hint: Not only people that die are often those with less skills, and more likely to die again if ressed, but also for most bosses(*) the abovementioned “sweet spot” is at a relatively low number – lower than number of players that usually attempt the fight.

(*)There are few notable exceptions (besides the obvious Tequatl and Three-headed Wurm, Fire Elemental is the most visible one).

Daddicus.6128:

One problem, though, is that it’s not infinite. Beyond a certain number of players (10, if his data is still accurate), the scaling up is less than the player adds to the battle. So, it’s bad to lose players, since the downscaling brings the numbers down to a new number that slightly favors the boss.

That’s for Queen’s Pavillon Boss Blitz event. For most bosses it’s the opposite – beyond a certain number each new player starts adding less and less compared to the scaling they cause. Especially if those players are not zerkers or are inexperienced or just plain bad.

Well I dunno how it works… But I usually WP on bosses if I die.

But I was thinking, this game is alot about teamwork without having to be in groups. When it is better to WP out than to be rezzed and getting in to the fray again I think the mechanic is broken. We (In my opinion) are supposed to be helping eachother and rez players who are down SO I just now have been thinking about a few chamges to the rezzing to encurrage Rezzing the dead.

So first of all, these two ideas requires that the fights DO NOT scale down when a players maps out to a near WP, only if they log out or WP to another map.

1. You know there are food you can eat that gives a buff to the rezzer and the rezzed, what if there is a buff that you always get for rezzing a dead. A buff that improves the rezzers and the rezzed with a small %. This will make people rez more. Though this can be exploited but maby it is an idea to start with.

2. Rezzing dead players will give the rezzers “medic points” that you can use later on to trade in for loot (Like the reward track in PvP). Dunno if it will work but that would encurage players to rezz dead players. Also something that can get exploited but I just thought of these two so their aint much planning behind it.

Anyway, in my opinion people should rez dead players even if it costs alot of DPS becouse this game is about teamplay and it has such a good community. Comming from a guy who rarely rezzes dead players in boss fights.

The point is not really any of this, the point is that so many people are lazy waiting for others to finish and then get loot. It is not that i mind ressing people, but when event fails because people are lazy to run back, or were a few people have to struggle a very long time to maybe manage a upscaled event, then this is kitten. And it causes a lot of anger because the people having to struggle whilst others lying on the ground dead gets really upset about it. Not to mention when this people scream for ress and starts to insult the people trying to actually save the situation and especially at events were you simply can not ress with the risk of going down your self.

Imo it should be in pve as it is in wvw and people should be forced to waypoint after a few minutes. This way they will choose to run back faster.
It should also stop the abusing of resses since a kittenload of people goes afk on the map next to a mob and get ressed over and over to avoid being kicked from the game. This in it self makes me not so egar to stay and ress because 95% of the people just lying around are afk.

I don’t mind ress people, but i only ress if there is no risk of me going down whilst doing so, and if you are lying next to a waypoints (yes there is many people doing that) then i will walk over your body. It would be faster for your to use that waypoint then me to ress and seing you lying there screaming for ress mostly makes me laugh. Kindness should not be abused kitten many do today.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Well I dunno how it works… But I usually WP on bosses if I die.

But I was thinking, this game is alot about teamwork without having to be in groups. When it is better to WP out than to be rezzed and getting in to the fray again I think the mechanic is broken. We (In my opinion) are supposed to be helping eachother and rez players who are down SO I just now have been thinking about a few chamges to the rezzing to encurrage Rezzing the dead.

So first of all, these two ideas requires that the fights DO NOT scale down when a players maps out to a near WP, only if they log out or WP to another map.

1. You know there are food you can eat that gives a buff to the rezzer and the rezzed, what if there is a buff that you always get for rezzing a dead. A buff that improves the rezzers and the rezzed with a small %. This will make people rez more. Though this can be exploited but maby it is an idea to start with.

2. Rezzing dead players will give the rezzers “medic points” that you can use later on to trade in for loot (Like the reward track in PvP). Dunno if it will work but that would encurage players to rezz dead players. Also something that can get exploited but I just thought of these two so their aint much planning behind it.

Anyway, in my opinion people should rez dead players even if it costs alot of DPS becouse this game is about teamplay and it has such a good community. Comming from a guy who rarely rezzes dead players in boss fights.

No. to all of this. It is a nice sentiment you have here but the game mechanics and math strongly disagree.

Rezzing the dead is a waste of DPS when with timed fights and scaling you need it. you dont break even with the DPS loss unless the person who was rezzed from fully dead survives and maintains constant DPS for the next 30-40 seconds because the people who rezzed spent time doing nothing.

Cyninja.2954:

Daddicus.6128:

tovadaun.6304:

I do this as a courtesy to the others around me.

It’s no courtesy to me; I want you fighting, not jogging back from a waypoint (with noted exceptions like MKII).

Almost every one in this thread has explained that waypointing is almost always better instead of rezzing someone fully dead.

You can stay stubborn and try to find excuses for being lazy and waiting for someone to ressurect you, or you can do every other player around you a favor and take the social approach and walk if fully dead.

The amount of events where ressurecting really would be beneficial can be counted on one hand, and most of those are not reworked old meta events with no or insanely long timers. Most newer events (and going by what we can see in the beta) do NOT and will NOT benefit ressurecting fully dead people.

They SAY that, but nobody has given any valid evidence. I timed rezzing (8 seconds, alone) and running back (~60-90 seconds, but depends greatly one the map). Those are actual numbers, and they say the opposite of what you said.

I’m not asking people to rez me; I don’t die very often. But, I AM asking them to rez those who are dead. I want them fighting, not running back from some out-of-the-way waypoint somewhere.

This is especially true in VW. If people WP out of VW, they’re completely out of combat; there is no running back, because you can’t get back in. And yet every day there’s someone spouting the same bad logic you are. This thread exists so I can point people to it and they can have their bad logic overturned by facts. But, it seems people don’t want to change their mind, even when proven wrong.

eithinan.9841:

No. to all of this. It is a nice sentiment you have here but the game mechanics and math strongly disagree.

…

I wish I had a nickel for every time someone has said this without facts to back it up.

Not claiming it’s conclusive proof, but the link seems to point to WP during VW as being the right move.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38gswa/event_downscaling_in_sw/

I didn’t read most of the thread but if you die at VW, most likely you’re pretty bad and you are going to be dieing again shortly. If everyone that knows how to stay alive keeps rezzing the baddies you’re going to lose. Of course there are times I’ve died at VW, bad luck happens but more often than not the people that know the mechanics stay alive. You also have to take into account the DPS loss the alive person is doing to Rez. Also rezzing the dead guy may mean you missing rezzing the downed guy. Or the dead guys on top of the downed guys issue.

Daddicus.6128:

They SAY that, but nobody has given any valid evidence. I timed rezzing (8 seconds, alone) and running back (~60-90 seconds, but depends greatly one the map). Those are actual numbers, and they say the opposite of what you said.

8 seconds for fully rezzing someone from fully dead to alive, alone and while in combat? Sorry, but I have my doubts as far as that number is concerned.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Daddicus.6128:

They SAY that, but nobody has given any valid evidence. I timed rezzing (8 seconds, alone) and running back (~60-90 seconds, but depends greatly one the map). Those are actual numbers, and they say the opposite of what you said.

8 seconds for fully rezzing someone from fully dead to alive, alone and while in combat? Sorry, but I have my doubts as far as that number is concerned.

21s – solo – in combat
19s – solo – in combat with 10% faster res trait
7s(almost 8 ) – solo – out of combat, faster res trait doesn’t seem to do anything out of combat

Seriously? How many die trying to rez? I’ve seen a wave kill 3 trying to rez.
How many take 20 seconds…

What concerns me is the indifference shown towards downed players.
When they die at the end of a long heal attempt, how many come back?

RoseofGilead.8907:

Daddicus.6128:

They SAY that, but nobody has given any valid evidence. I timed rezzing (8 seconds, alone) and running back (~60-90 seconds, but depends greatly one the map). Those are actual numbers, and they say the opposite of what you said.

8 seconds for fully rezzing someone from fully dead to alive, alone and while in combat? Sorry, but I have my doubts as far as that number is concerned.

Then time it yourself. I repeated it again today, and it was between 6 and 7 seconds both times.

However, these all occurred when I was “not in combat” and so doing the rez at triple speed. So, the real time is probably 21-24 seconds.

I’ve been thinking, and I’ll go one step further:

If waypointing really does cause the boss fight to go more easily, then that’s an exploit bug that needs to be fixed. The devs clearly consider waypointing out to be cheating, (they removed the ability to do so in dungeons for that very reason).

The game rewards players for reviving and rezzing other players. Why would they allow a cheesy exploit if they clearly want to point people to the opposite action?

If it operated this way, they should do the same thing they did in dungeons: no waypointing when combat is still occurring.

By the way, that video needs to be done again, this time leaving the dead player in the combat area (i.e. not waypointing). Only if the boss’s HP stay higher (longer than in the current video) would it be valid as an argument against my position. And, even then, it just drops back to the time-to-run vs. time-to-rez equation, which has already been shown to favor rezzing your comrades.

Khisanth.2948:

21s – solo – in combat
19s – solo – in combat with 10% faster res trait
7s(almost 8 ) – solo – out of combat, faster res trait doesn’t seem to do anything out of combat

It seems longer when in the thick of things, but even I was surprised at how little time it actually takes.

However, I don’t recommend taking a rez trait except in boss battles that always include a lot of death, and also have a long trip back from a waypoint. The other trait you have to give up is probably worth far more to the overall combat process.

We should also time how much the time compresses to have more than one rezzer. I suspect it’s a wash, but that requires proof. Hopefully having 3 rezzers takes exactly 1/3 the time. But, it might not, and it’s not easy to test.

Daddicus.6128:

I’ve been thinking, and I’ll go one step further:

If waypointing really does cause the boss fight to go more easily, then that’s an exploit bug that needs to be fixed. The devs clearly consider waypointing out to be cheating, (they removed the ability to do so in dungeons for that very reason).

The game rewards players for reviving and rezzing other players. Why would they allow a cheesy exploit if they clearly want to point people to the opposite action?

If it operated this way, they should do the same thing they did in dungeons: no waypointing when combat is still occurring.

By the way, that video needs to be done again, this time leaving the dead player in the combat area (i.e. not waypointing). Only if the boss’s HP stay higher (longer than in the current video) would it be valid as an argument against my position. And, even then, it just drops back to the time-to-run vs. time-to-rez equation, which has already been shown to favor rezzing your comrades.

You may want to double check exactly what their reasons were for removing WPing while any party member is in combat within dungeons.

You’re also neglecting the DPS loss due to having to revive someone.

Daddicus.6128:

Then time it yourself. I repeated it again today, and it was between 6 and 7 seconds both times.

However, these all occurred when I was “not in combat” and so doing the rez at triple speed. So, the real time is probably 21-24 seconds.

Yeah, I said “from fully dead to alive, alone and while in combat”. Not out of combat. The issue at hand in this thread is whether or not to rez the dead during big events like this, where everyone who is alive will likely be in combat.

Daddicus.6128:

I’ve been thinking, and I’ll go one step further:

If waypointing really does cause the boss fight to go more easily, then that’s an exploit bug that needs to be fixed. The devs clearly consider waypointing out to be cheating, (they removed the ability to do so in dungeons for that very reason).

Unlike open world content, dungeons do not scale. People were abusing waypoints to death rush bosses.

As a simple fix, they should just make dead players not count towards scaling and also not revivable while in the area of an active event. Even the devs have complained about dead players not waypointing, but the problem is, at the same time, they want the game to be very casual friendly.

What they really need to fix is contribution, but again, that wouldn’t be casual friendly. Why bother participating at all when you can simply do 1% of the event, walk away and get full credit? If contribution was fixed, you would basically be required to do a certain amount of damage compared to the average to get full credit, otherwise you would only get a percentage of the rewards.

Here’s some new data on scaling, though it only further confirms what’s already known:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38pdks/controlled_event_scaling_test/

Daddicus.6128:

Khisanth.2948:

21s – solo – in combat
19s – solo – in combat with 10% faster res trait
7s(almost 8 ) – solo – out of combat, faster res trait doesn’t seem to do anything out of combat

It seems longer when in the thick of things, but even I was surprised at how little time it actually takes.

However, I don’t recommend taking a rez trait except in boss battles that always include a lot of death, and also have a long trip back from a waypoint. The other trait you have to give up is probably worth far more to the overall combat process.

We should also time how much the time compresses to have more than one rezzer. I suspect it’s a wash, but that requires proof. Hopefully having 3 rezzers takes exactly 1/3 the time. But, it might not, and it’s not easy to test.

21s for 1 person solo to rez someone in combat means the person dead now has to at least do 45 – 50 seconds of full damage to compensate for the damage loss ALONE.

That is not considering:
- the increased danger of getting the ressurector killed
- the ressurection getting interupted due to having to evade attacks (effectively increasing the time it takes to rez someone while not doing damage)
- the fact that the player who died might have subpar gear and/or skill making him a less valuable addition to the group
- not taking into account different damage boss phases or periodic boss immunity timers
- the fact that if the dead person waypointed none of these things would be an issue (effectively making waypointing out until the below the optimum amount of players are undercut the better solution)

Daddicus.6128:

I’ve been thinking, and I’ll go one step further:

If waypointing really does cause the boss fight to go more easily, then that’s an exploit bug that needs to be fixed. The devs clearly consider waypointing out to be cheating, (they removed the ability to do so in dungeons for that very reason).

The game rewards players for reviving and rezzing other players. Why would they allow a cheesy exploit if they clearly want to point people to the opposite action?

If it operated this way, they should do the same thing they did in dungeons: no waypointing when combat is still occurring.

By the way, that video needs to be done again, this time leaving the dead player in the combat area (i.e. not waypointing). Only if the boss’s HP stay higher (longer than in the current video) would it be valid as an argument against my position. And, even then, it just drops back to the time-to-run vs. time-to-rez equation, which has already been shown to favor rezzing your comrades.

No, it has not been shown in favor of rezzing your comrades. On the contrary.

No rezzing in dungeons to prevent death running content has nothing to do with open world content. Stop strawmaning.

Using a game mechanic is not an exploit. Making boss fights impossible once to many people have died is not fun game design. Stop mixing and matching things that have nothing to do with the issue at hand in futile attempts to somehow make your argument stick.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38pdks/controlled_event_scaling_test/

Again proves that dead players scale events up. We can keep talking in circles. All i see is 1 person wanting the game to work in one way completely ignoring how ingame rules and mechanics work. Will ressurecting dead players be viable? Sure if anet change how the system works. Is it viable now? NO!!!!

Daddicus.6128:

I’ve been thinking, and I’ll go one step further:

If waypointing really does cause the boss fight to go more easily, then that’s an exploit bug that needs to be fixed. The devs clearly consider waypointing out to be cheating, (they removed the ability to do so in dungeons for that very reason).

Waypointing doesn’t make the fight easier. Waypointing stops the dead people from griefing everyone else by providing negative contribution to the fight since they are scaling up the fight but provide zero benefits. Maybe they should bring back IWAY

Waypointing in dungeons was a completely different scenario. As long as someone stayed alive and remained in combat with the boss the boss’s HP would not reset so you could just make multiple passes to kill a boss. There are probably youtube videos of the original version of CoF p2 and the part where you had to defend Magg just before the boss room.

The game rewards players for reviving and rezzing other players. Why would they allow a cheesy exploit if they clearly want to point people to the opposite action?

If it operated this way, they should do the same thing they did in dungeons: no waypointing when combat is still occurring.

That doesn’t really work for open world stuff since there is no party linking people together. Even if they could implement that it probably won’t end well.

Daddicus.6128:

However, I don’t recommend taking a rez trait except in boss battles that always include a lot of death, and also have a long trip back from a waypoint. The other trait you have to give up is probably worth far more to the overall combat process.

In the case of a warrior the trait is a minor trait so there is no alternative and it was tested for a complete coverage of possible setups.

The original question posed by the OP was: is it better for the map if the dead waypoint? Is it better for those who are dead to waypoint?

We now have enough hard data to answer the first question: yes, it’s better for the map if the dead waypoint.

• You quickly reduce the health of the boss (and of added spawns, depending on the event).
• You don’t get in the way of others trying to pick up items (e.g. frost bows) or rez the merely downed.
• You don’t risk losing 5-20 seconds of damage or utilities from those trying to rez the dead. (20 seconds for solo, 5 seconds for a group.)

Is it better for the player with the dead character? That’s harder to answer.

• They have to pay for the WP costs.
• They have to spend time running back — although that’s not difficult, neither is it particularly fun or interesting.
• They do get the same rewards, as long as they tagged in the first place.
• The chances for a successful event are increased, by a hard-to-measure amount.

So we can’t say it’s absolutely better for them; at most, we can say it’s not significantly worse either.

I don’t think that’s a very strong incentive to encourage people to waypoint.

In fact, it’s my impression that trying to convince people that they must WP if dead is ultimately more damaging to the community’s efforts. People end up arguing about proper etiquette, which convinces no one and does nothing to help the fight go more smoothly.

Plus, typically events don’t usually fail because a few people are downed — they fail because there isn’t a critical mass of people who know what to do while in good health. It takes far fewer people to succeed at a lot of these events than most people think, if people know the mechanics. And if people don’t know the mechanics, it often doesn’t matter at all how many there are. In the first case, the events can succeed with plenty of dead and in the second, they can still fail with plenty left alive.

So, instead of criticizing the dead, admonishing them, or threatening to refuse to rez them after it’s all over (and none of this matters)… instead of that, what if people focused on reducing the chance that people die during the event?

Explain mechanics so that newbies (and there are always newbies) can learn, bring some support utilities, take time to rez the downed, and so on.

tl;dr Even though we know the facts to answer the OP’s original question(s), the point is moot. It would be better to work towards success, instead of preparing for catastrophe.

SMH, just waypoint. Why be stubborn?
You’re forgetting to take the human factor into account with your arguments also.

IMO The only changes that we could benefit from greatly are:
-more people need to res the downed
-attempt to learn/know the fight mechanics
-don’t afk after you finish “your bit”

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.
then ask your self this, why does the mechanism exist at all?
i mean, if no one is gonna rez anyway it’s a waste of dev time to even have it in the game in the first place.

i am not as selfish, i rez.
i don’t care if the event fails, as long as others can enjoy playing the game it’s worth it.
seriously, ppl care way to much about reward but don’t care one single bit about other players.
and don’t come and say you do, you would never ignore a dead player if you do.
it’s not a matter of “how much time does it take to walk back”, it’s a matter of helping a fellow player.

better yet, i had times when ignoring rez became a failed event, ones i started ressing players it was a cake walk.
quit being selfish, start helping players.
fun>win

eithinan.9841:

No. to all of this. It is a nice sentiment you have here but the game mechanics and math strongly disagree.

Rezzing the dead is a waste of DPS when with timed fights and scaling you need it. you dont break even with the DPS loss unless the person who was rezzed from fully dead survives and maintains constant DPS for the next 30-40 seconds because the people who rezzed spent time doing nothing.

Umm… I dunno if you read all my ideas becouse the point on one Idea was that players who helped ressing got a boost, this boost will give for example quickness, might and other stuff to boost your DPS. Also what many havent accounted for is that we are actually talking about encounters like Worldbosses where alot of players are gathered at the same time. Now we do not count how long time it takes for one player to rezz another but we are talking how much time and DPS we loose from when max numbers of players are rezzing one player and thus giving all the rezzers a boost of might and quickness for about the time it took for them to rezz this player or even longer.
This in my mind would even out the DPS loss from rezzing or even increase the DPS and thus increase the reason to rezz dead players.

sorudo.9054:

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.

That wasn’t the conclusion at all, please try again.

sorudo.9054:

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.
then ask your self this, why does the mechanism exist at all?
i mean, if no one is gonna rez anyway it’s a waste of dev time to even have it in the game in the first place.

i am not as selfish, i rez.
i don’t care if the event fails, as long as others can enjoy playing the game it’s worth it.
seriously, ppl care way to much about reward but don’t care one single bit about other players.
and don’t come and say you do, you would never ignore a dead player if you do.
it’s not a matter of “how much time does it take to walk back”, it’s a matter of helping a fellow player.

better yet, i had times when ignoring rez became a failed event, ones i started ressing players it was a cake walk.
quit being selfish, start helping players.
fun>win

What?

So by your logic I should ressurect a dead player possibly making the event fail which in turn means him, me and possibly 50+ other players do not get the event rewards.

Opposed to having him waypoint after being already taged to the event, the rest of the players finish the event and every one gets loot and is happy including the player who waypointed out.

Somehow I doubt your definition of fun will ring true with a majority of the player base. Who is the selfish one now? Try again.

Cyninja.2954:

sorudo.9054:

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.
then ask your self this, why does the mechanism exist at all?
i mean, if no one is gonna rez anyway it’s a waste of dev time to even have it in the game in the first place.

i am not as selfish, i rez.
i don’t care if the event fails, as long as others can enjoy playing the game it’s worth it.
seriously, ppl care way to much about reward but don’t care one single bit about other players.
and don’t come and say you do, you would never ignore a dead player if you do.
it’s not a matter of “how much time does it take to walk back”, it’s a matter of helping a fellow player.

better yet, i had times when ignoring rez became a failed event, ones i started ressing players it was a cake walk.
quit being selfish, start helping players.
fun>win

What?

So by your logic I should ressurect a dead player possibly making the event fail which in turn means him, me and possibly 50+ other players do not get the event rewards.

Opposed to having him waypoint after being already taged to the event, the rest of the players finish the event and every one gets loot and is happy including the player who waypointed out.

Somehow I doubt your definition of fun will ring true with a majority of the player base. Who is the selfish one now? Try again.

lol, you have no idea how many times i dies and never got the reward even while i did 95% of the event alone, try again.

sorudo.9054:

Cyninja.2954:

sorudo.9054:

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.
then ask your self this, why does the mechanism exist at all?
i mean, if no one is gonna rez anyway it’s a waste of dev time to even have it in the game in the first place.

i am not as selfish, i rez.
i don’t care if the event fails, as long as others can enjoy playing the game it’s worth it.
seriously, ppl care way to much about reward but don’t care one single bit about other players.
and don’t come and say you do, you would never ignore a dead player if you do.
it’s not a matter of “how much time does it take to walk back”, it’s a matter of helping a fellow player.

better yet, i had times when ignoring rez became a failed event, ones i started ressing players it was a cake walk.
quit being selfish, start helping players.
fun>win

What?

So by your logic I should ressurect a dead player possibly making the event fail which in turn means him, me and possibly 50+ other players do not get the event rewards.

Opposed to having him waypoint after being already taged to the event, the rest of the players finish the event and every one gets loot and is happy including the player who waypointed out.

Somehow I doubt your definition of fun will ring true with a majority of the player base. Who is the selfish one now? Try again.

lol, you have no idea how many times i dies and never got the reward even while i did 95% of the event alone, try again.

That’s a l2p issue considering how incredibly easy it is to tag an event.

sorudo.9054:

Cyninja.2954:

sorudo.9054:

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.
then ask your self this, why does the mechanism exist at all?
i mean, if no one is gonna rez anyway it’s a waste of dev time to even have it in the game in the first place.

i am not as selfish, i rez.
i don’t care if the event fails, as long as others can enjoy playing the game it’s worth it.
seriously, ppl care way to much about reward but don’t care one single bit about other players.
and don’t come and say you do, you would never ignore a dead player if you do.
it’s not a matter of “how much time does it take to walk back”, it’s a matter of helping a fellow player.

better yet, i had times when ignoring rez became a failed event, ones i started ressing players it was a cake walk.
quit being selfish, start helping players.
fun>win

What?

So by your logic I should ressurect a dead player possibly making the event fail which in turn means him, me and possibly 50+ other players do not get the event rewards.

Opposed to having him waypoint after being already taged to the event, the rest of the players finish the event and every one gets loot and is happy including the player who waypointed out.

Somehow I doubt your definition of fun will ring true with a majority of the player base. Who is the selfish one now? Try again.

lol, you have no idea how many times i dies and never got the reward even while i did 95% of the event alone, try again.

Considering it takes no more than 4-5 auto attacks to tag an event, I’d say you are the problem, not the system.

Strict l2p issue here.

Let’s do the math again with some numbers.
Scenario:
-player dies at a boss (say Tequatl).
-all players do 10k dps
-scaling not taken into account

OPTION 1: fast resurrection
5 players immediately resurrect the player. This takes 4s. Damage loss is (5+1) x 10k x 4s = 240k damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: 240k

OPTION 2: slow resurrection
1 player immediately resurrects the player. This takes 21s. Dps loss is (1+1) x 10k x 21s = 420k damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: 420k

OPTION 3: fast waypoint
The player WP’s and runs back. This takes 70+ second (for Tequatl, yes with swiftness and leap skill use!) Dps loss is 1 × 10k x 70s = 700k damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: 700k

OPTION 3: slow waypoint
The player waits half and half if he gets rezzed or not. Finaly, after 30s, map chat makes him believe he should. The player WP’s and runs back. This takes 100+ second (for Tequatl, yes with swiftness and leap skill use!) Dps loss is 1 × 10k x 100s = 1000k damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: 1000k

So pure mathematical you should REZ DEAD PLAYERS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

CONTRA’s:
-It might be dangerous to resurrect, the rezzers are in a hazard for 4-20s
-Scaling might offset these numbers a bit. But we don’t know how scaling works exactly so we can’t make mathematical conclusions about that. The event might scale down, but it later will scale back up when the player arrives back.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38pdks/controlled_event_scaling_test/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38tatc/controlled_event_scaling_test_part_2/

But what happens if the player gets back ? The HP just gets added again ? Flat ? In that case my post still stands.
If the HP gets relatively added, it all depends on how fast the rest of the zerg is killing the boss. In phase 1 of Tequatl, wich is the phase were most will die, this will change little to the outcome.

spoj.9672:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38pdks/controlled_event_scaling_test/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38tatc/controlled_event_scaling_test_part_2/