Guild Wars 2

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Minae Iss.7054:

But what happens if the player gets back ? The HP just gets added again ? Flat ? In that case my post still stands.
If the HP gets relatively added, it all depends on how fast the rest of the zerg is killing the boss. In phase 1 of Tequatl, wich is the phase were most will die, this will change little to the outcome.

If it was flat, a zerg could attack a boss for few seconds, leave and the boss would self-destruct. Also you would see the health going up and down a lot.

A flat up and down when players join and leave seems unlikely, I agree. However this is the case for the total health of the boss, as based on the reddit posts. When a player leaves ( or enters as I assume ) the bosspit, the total health of the boss will go up or down a flat amount. For the actual health of the boss, let’s assume it gets added based on the health the boss has on that moment.
For example, if a player leaves/enters the boss at 100% hp a flat 100K health gets subtracted/added. When that player does the same thing again at 70%, only 70K will get substracted/added.
Lets say the amount of damage is about 25% of the boss’s health per player that joins or leaves the fight.

SO if someone dies at 85% and waypoints, 0.85×0.25xBOSS_BASE_HP will be substracted. When he gets back at 80%, 0.8×0.25xBOSS_BASE_HP will be added back again. This nets 1% of the boss’s base hp of damage that the zerg didn’t have to do. Great!

(However, if there are 55 players at the boss, he will have (50×0.25+1)xBOSS_BASE_HP total health. So then it only nets 0.1% of the total hp.)

If the base health of the boss is perhaps TEN MILLION hp, wich is quite a lot, this will still only effect about 10×10^6×1% = 100k damage.
And so it is still better to rez up the players, mathematically speaking. It’s only not viable if the boss goes down very fast relative to the run time.

If reviving is a damage loss and waypointing is a damage gain, how can it be worse?

Because reviving, without scaling, is less of a damage loss than waypointing.
But if the boss has really high base hp, more like 50-100 million, and the zerg goes fast… Well than is it is due to scaling more viable to let the dead waypoint than to resurrect them.

Let’s say zerg does damage equal 1% of boss’s health per second. So 100 seconds to kill it.

If someone gets defeated and is revived, zerg can’t kill in 100 seconds because reviving takes some time.

Assuming everyone does same damage and scaling is fair. If someone gets defeated and waypoints, the boss scales down and zerg will still do 1% max health per second. Zerg will still kill the boss in 100 seconds.

one thing that would help:

if they reversed the change to “rez skills” to allow them to revive fully defeated players. like the elementalists revive glyph. i know they changed it for PvP balance before, but these skills are almost never used. they are in NO meta builds, because they are so useless. it generally takes longer to channel the skill than it does to simply use the F key to revive someone who is downed.

there was a time near launch that i always took the rez glyph on my ele, just for PvE events. because it was really cool to be able to revive a defeated player (or 3) during combat when it really mattered.

these skills need to be split for PvE / PvP, or totally removed and replaced with skills of new functionality.

as far as the specific debate about “ALL DEAD WAYPOINT OR TOXIC MAP CHAT” goes, i’m honestly at the point where i’m ready to start /reporting everyone who even participates in the toxic map chat discussion of that topic, because i’m so sick and tired of infantile temper tantrems spoiling my game experience. if the game and its players make you so angry that you must verbally abuse others, then it’s time to take a break.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

one thing that would help:

if they reversed the change to “rez skills” to allow them to revive fully defeated players. like the elementalists revive glyph. i know they changed it for PvP balance before, but these skills are almost never used. they are in NO meta builds, because they are so useless. it generally takes longer to channel the skill than it does to simply use the F key to revive someone who is downed.

there was a time near launch that i always took the rez glyph on my ele, just for PvE events. because it was really cool to be able to revive a defeated player (or 3) during combat when it really mattered.

Maybe I’m not recalling correctly, but I can’t remember a time when those skills EVER revived fully dead players. As far as I can remember, it’s only ever revived downed players and dead NPCs.

Wethospu.6437:

Let’s say zerg does damage equal 1% of boss’s health per second. So 100 seconds to kill it.

If someone gets defeated and is revived, zerg can’t kill in 100 seconds because reviving takes some time.

Assuming everyone does same damage and scaling is fair. If someone gets defeated and waypoints, the boss scales down and zerg will still do 1% max health per second. Zerg will still kill the boss in 100 seconds.

This holds true as long as the dead player does not return. The moment he returns, the boss gets upscaled again and you have to follow my calculations. And then it’s not quite so simple and it all depends on how long you have to run from the wp and how fast the zerg is killing the boss.
But because of other factors like annoying map clutter, risk of reviving and not beeing able to pick up icebows… it’s probably better to waypoint. But certainly not because of the damage loss or scaling alone!

EDIT. When rethinking this I see that this is not true. But it still doesn’t work quite as simple as the qoute makes it seem.

Minae Iss.7054:

Wethospu.6437:

Let’s say zerg does damage equal 1% of boss’s health per second. So 100 seconds to kill it.

If someone gets defeated and is revived, zerg can’t kill in 100 seconds because reviving takes some time.

Assuming everyone does same damage and scaling is fair. If someone gets defeated and waypoints, the boss scales down and zerg will still do 1% max health per second. Zerg will still kill the boss in 100 seconds.

This holds true AS LONG AS THE DEAD PLAYER DOES NOT RETURN. The moment he returns, the boss gets upscaled again and you have to follow my calculations. And then it’s not quite so simple and it all depends on how long you have to run from the wp and how fast the zerg is killing the boss.
But because of other factors like annoying map clutter, risk of reviving and not beeing able to pick up icebows… it’s probably better to waypoint. But certainly not because of the damage loss or scaling alone!

Wrong. If the player returns and the boss scales up based on his now lower life, it again is a benefit for the raid. No matter how you turn it, waypoint when dead wins out.

Not even going to comment on your random waypoint run times and not adressing the danger people face when ressurecting, especially during tequatle. That fight is one of the WORST example for ressurecting due to all the near instant kill aoe.

EDIT: and before we get all the boss scale off of base health, what about boss fights that change phase depending on their health? Yeah I thought so.

These ‘maths proofs’ are pretty useless, simply they assume that all players do the same DPS. It could well be that the dead player would do considerably more DPS that the players who revived them.

But even assuming that all players were identical, these ‘proofs’ also conveniently leaving out the fact that the group has already lost DPS from the dead player, and that counts too.

Player dies, group DPS is now down by 10k DPS
Player waypoints and spends 45 seconds running back.
Group loses 450,000 damage

Player does, group DPS is now down by 10k DPS
5 players instantly start to revive, and spend 5 seconds reviving player at a cost of 6 players (5 ressurectors and dead) x 5 seconds x 10 DPS.
Group loses 300,000 damage

But in the end it really doesn’t matter, simply because this is a scenario where opinions are based on circumstantial evidence, and pseudo maths, and at this point neither side would be swayed to the other, even if they posted irrefutable proof.

Basically, if you die then your ability to be revived is out of your control. It may well be the case the it would be more beneficial to the group to actually revive you, but if nobody actually bothers, then lying there dead surrounded by players too stubborn to revive you is an exercise in futility.

If nobody’s coming after 5 seconds they probably wont, and so ‘you’ are probably better of waypointing, regardless of whether the ’group was better off or not.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Maybe I’m not recalling correctly, but I can’t remember a time when those skills EVER revived fully dead players. As far as I can remember, it’s only ever revived downed players and dead NPCs.

Some of them (most notably the ranger one) did heal even dead players. They were changed for a very specific reason, that no longer applies, by the way – they were used to bypass the agony bar in old Fractals, to go into levels beyond what available agony reduction infusions could allow then. I don’t believe this is an issue any longer.

Kaz.5430:

If nobody’s coming after 5 seconds they probably wont, and so ‘you’ are probably better of waypointing, regardless of whether the ’group was better off or not.

And frankly, it’s not like the players waiting to be ressed even care about what’s better for the group anyway.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Forgotten Legend.9281:

one thing that would help:

if they reversed the change to “rez skills” to allow them to revive fully defeated players. like the elementalists revive glyph. i know they changed it for PvP balance before, but these skills are almost never used. they are in NO meta builds, because they are so useless. it generally takes longer to channel the skill than it does to simply use the F key to revive someone who is downed.

there was a time near launch that i always took the rez glyph on my ele, just for PvE events. because it was really cool to be able to revive a defeated player (or 3) during combat when it really mattered.

Maybe I’m not recalling correctly, but I can’t remember a time when those skills EVER revived fully dead players. As far as I can remember, it’s only ever revived downed players and dead NPCs.

Glyph of Renewal absolutely used to revive dead players. I carried it through beta and at launch when people were still trying to learn the game and everyone died all the time. I don’t believe it was intended though (or at least that’s what the claim was when they changed it), and very early on it was adjusted to only rez downed players.

…and with the long cast time I doubt anyone has ever really used it since.

Cyninja.2954:

sorudo.9054:

Cyninja.2954:

sorudo.9054:

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.
then ask your self this, why does the mechanism exist at all?
i mean, if no one is gonna rez anyway it’s a waste of dev time to even have it in the game in the first place.

i am not as selfish, i rez.
i don’t care if the event fails, as long as others can enjoy playing the game it’s worth it.
seriously, ppl care way to much about reward but don’t care one single bit about other players.
and don’t come and say you do, you would never ignore a dead player if you do.
it’s not a matter of “how much time does it take to walk back”, it’s a matter of helping a fellow player.

better yet, i had times when ignoring rez became a failed event, ones i started ressing players it was a cake walk.
quit being selfish, start helping players.
fun>win

What?

So by your logic I should ressurect a dead player possibly making the event fail which in turn means him, me and possibly 50+ other players do not get the event rewards.

Opposed to having him waypoint after being already taged to the event, the rest of the players finish the event and every one gets loot and is happy including the player who waypointed out.

Somehow I doubt your definition of fun will ring true with a majority of the player base. Who is the selfish one now? Try again.

lol, you have no idea how many times i dies and never got the reward even while i did 95% of the event alone, try again.

Considering it takes no more than 4-5 auto attacks to tag an event, I’d say you are the problem, not the system.

Strict l2p issue here.

nope, not at all.
if i do 95% of the event alone, including champ kills, and die just at the end of the event tagging isn’t gonna help.
you’ll be way to far away from the event to even tag one single enemy, it’s exactly my point.

i do the event mostly alone, die just at the end and get nothing, random joe comes along just at the end and get’s 100% of the reward.
tell me if that’s fair or not…..

sorudo.9054:

Cyninja.2954:

sorudo.9054:

Cyninja.2954:

sorudo.9054:

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.
then ask your self this, why does the mechanism exist at all?
i mean, if no one is gonna rez anyway it’s a waste of dev time to even have it in the game in the first place.

i am not as selfish, i rez.
i don’t care if the event fails, as long as others can enjoy playing the game it’s worth it.
seriously, ppl care way to much about reward but don’t care one single bit about other players.
and don’t come and say you do, you would never ignore a dead player if you do.
it’s not a matter of “how much time does it take to walk back”, it’s a matter of helping a fellow player.

better yet, i had times when ignoring rez became a failed event, ones i started ressing players it was a cake walk.
quit being selfish, start helping players.
fun>win

What?

So by your logic I should ressurect a dead player possibly making the event fail which in turn means him, me and possibly 50+ other players do not get the event rewards.

Opposed to having him waypoint after being already taged to the event, the rest of the players finish the event and every one gets loot and is happy including the player who waypointed out.

Somehow I doubt your definition of fun will ring true with a majority of the player base. Who is the selfish one now? Try again.

lol, you have no idea how many times i dies and never got the reward even while i did 95% of the event alone, try again.

Considering it takes no more than 4-5 auto attacks to tag an event, I’d say you are the problem, not the system.

Strict l2p issue here.

nope, not at all.
if i do 95% of the event alone, including champ kills, and die just at the end of the event tagging isn’t gonna help.
you’ll be way to far away from the event to even tag one single enemy, it’s exactly my point.

i do the event mostly alone, die just at the end and get nothing, random joe comes along just at the end and get’s 100% of the reward.
tell me if that’s fair or not…..

If you really did tag the event, then you’d have received the reward even if you were dead and/or half a map away. The only thing that can prevend receiving a reward from an event you have already tagged is dc or changing a map. So if you haven’t received a reward, it means that (whatever you might claim now) you haven’t really done 95% of the event. More, that you didn’t even tag it, which requires way, way less than 95%. And that is a L2P issue.

sorudo.9054:

if i do 95% of the event alone, including champ kills, and die just at the end of the event tagging isn’t gonna help.

What is 95% of the event? Is it a boss event or another type?

If it’s not a boss event, doing 1% of the event is enough. Kill a single mob, turn in a single item, etc, and walk away.

If it’s a boss event however, your credit will reset if you allow the target to reset. For example, if you’re killing a champ but die, your credit is lost the moment that champ begins regenerating health. If someone else was with you however to prevent that, you would still have credit. Sometimes these events have adds you can kill to get and keep credit, but the adds don’t always count.

Hawkfeather.2071:

Glyph of Renewal absolutely used to revive dead players. I carried it through beta and at launch when people were still trying to learn the game and everyone died all the time. I don’t believe it was intended though (or at least that’s what the claim was when they changed it), and very early on it was adjusted to only rez downed players.

…and with the long cast time I doubt anyone has ever really used it since.

Ahhh. I didn’t play an ele during beta or soon after launch, and I don’t think I ever even used my necro’s (awful) group revive until a few months into the game. So, that’s probably why I never knew of that.

spoj.9672:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38pdks/controlled_event_scaling_test/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38tatc/controlled_event_scaling_test_part_2/

First off, these “tests” are a bunch of BS, those aren’t real bosses, the tests need to be done on the world Bosses or Grand Events…nobody cares about the lesser boss events. This whole thread is tied into VW and other large scale World Boss events. Give me those number and then I’ll do the math myself, until then these “tests” are entirely worthless, especially since scaling works differently for everything.

As for our OP, short of hand holding everyone through an event that has never done it before and with sometimes insufficient time to explain how it works(which does no good if they new players don’t listen[quite common]). It then becomes much simpler to just have them WP out and run back…for a specific event, such as VW, you have 60 seconds from when each boss battle first starts to run back in if you die before the vines close it off. If you’ve died that quickly…you either weren’t paying attention or aren’t good enough to even be there in most cases(there are exceptions).

I don’t even like anyone Rezzing me when I’m downed…based on this, I have Downed skills, if I’m unable to revive myself, then I should have to WP out once dead and run back(I don’t know why anyone would walk back). DO NOT waste your time reviving me, continue to attack the Boss and defeat it…that is the purpose of the event more often than not anyways.

Also, it’s not my job to make sure you’re having fun, it’s your job to have fun…aka, not my responsibility…every man for himself!

RoseofGilead.8907:

Yeah, I said “from fully dead to alive, alone and while in combat”. Not out of combat. The issue at hand in this thread is whether or not to rez the dead during big events like this, where everyone who is alive will likely be in combat.

Correct. That’s why I brought it up.

Healix.5819:

Unlike open world content, dungeons do not scale. People were abusing waypoints to death rush bosses.

That’s my whole point (in that post): it’s an abuse of the game if it works the way you say it does. It’s an exploit that needs to be fixed. You should not be able to go in, fight a little, leave (whether by dying or not), and still gain full profit. This whole argument is based upon the belief by some that they can game the system by telling people to WP out.

sorudo.9054:

so in conclusion, because ppl don’t want to help dead players because they are afrait the event fails, there is no need to rez at all.
then ask your self this, why does the mechanism exist at all?
i mean, if no one is gonna rez anyway it’s a waste of dev time to even have it in the game in the first place.

i am not as selfish, i rez.
i don’t care if the event fails, as long as others can enjoy playing the game it’s worth it.
seriously, ppl care way to much about reward but don’t care one single bit about other players.
and don’t come and say you do, you would never ignore a dead player if you do.
it’s not a matter of “how much time does it take to walk back”, it’s a matter of helping a fellow player.

better yet, i had times when ignoring rez became a failed event, ones i started ressing players it was a cake walk.
quit being selfish, start helping players.
fun>win

YAAAAAY! A voice of reason!!!

sorudo.9054:

nope, not at all.
if i do 95% of the event alone, including champ kills, and die just at the end of the event tagging isn’t gonna help.
you’ll be way to far away from the event to even tag one single enemy, it’s exactly my point.

i do the event mostly alone, die just at the end and get nothing, random joe comes along just at the end and get’s 100% of the reward.
tell me if that’s fair or not…..

To be fair to the others, though, that’s not the common result. Yes, many times I’ve fought for a time, died, and received no reward. But, it’s always been Teq or Inq. Golem II and specific events like that. I don’t think such results are consistent for most of the other bosses. Rather, certain bosses seem to not play by the same rules as the others. (Which may be yet another bug.)

Daddicus.6128:

You should not be able to go in, fight a little, leave (whether by dying or not), and still gain full profit.

Which is why contribution needs to be changed.

Minae Iss.7054:

Let’s do the math again with some numbers.
Scenario:
-player dies at a boss (say Tequatl).
-all players do 10k dps
-scaling not taken into account

OPTION 1: fast resurrection
5 players immediately resurrect the player. This takes 4s. Damage loss is (5+1) x 10k x 4s = 240k damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: 240k

OPTION 2: slow resurrection
1 player immediately resurrects the player. This takes 21s. Dps loss is (1+1) x 10k x 21s = 420k damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: 420k

OPTION 3: fast waypoint
The player WP’s and runs back. This takes 70+ second (for Tequatl, yes with swiftness and leap skill use!) Dps loss is 1 × 10k x 70s = 700k damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: 700k

OPTION 3: slow waypoint
The player waits half and half if he gets rezzed or not. Finaly, after 30s, map chat makes him believe he should. The player WP’s and runs back. This takes 100+ second (for Tequatl, yes with swiftness and leap skill use!) Dps loss is 1 × 10k x 100s = 1000k damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: 1000k

So pure mathematical you should REZ DEAD PLAYERS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

CONTRA’s:
-It might be dangerous to resurrect, the rezzers are in a hazard for 4-20s
-Scaling might offset these numbers a bit. But we don’t know how scaling works exactly so we can’t make mathematical conclusions about that. The event might scale down, but it later will scale back up when the player arrives back.

option 4: 5 people die trying to res that one guy, 10 more die trying to res those 5
TOTAL DAMAGE LOSS: over 11 million?

Minae Iss.7054:

Wethospu.6437:

Let’s say zerg does damage equal 1% of boss’s health per second. So 100 seconds to kill it.

If someone gets defeated and is revived, zerg can’t kill in 100 seconds because reviving takes some time.

Assuming everyone does same damage and scaling is fair. If someone gets defeated and waypoints, the boss scales down and zerg will still do 1% max health per second. Zerg will still kill the boss in 100 seconds.

This holds true AS LONG AS THE DEAD PLAYER DOES NOT RETURN. The moment he returns, the boss gets upscaled again and you have to follow my calculations. And then it’s not quite so simple and it all depends on how long you have to run from the wp and how fast the zerg is killing the boss.
But because of other factors like annoying map clutter, risk of reviving and not beeing able to pick up icebows… it’s probably better to waypoint. But certainly not because of the damage loss or scaling alone!

When the player returns, boss gets upscaled and the zerg still does 1% max health per second.

Kaz.5430:

These ‘maths proofs’ are pretty useless, simply they assume that all players do the same DPS. It could well be that the dead player would do considerably more DPS that the players who revived them.

Of course people do have different DPS but how do you know how much each DPS each player does? If you have a decent built it’s unlikely that the defeated player would do much more damage than you, especially if he gets defeated again.

But even assuming that all players were identical, these ‘proofs’ also conveniently leaving out the fact that the group has already lost DPS from the dead player, and that counts too.

Player dies, group DPS is now down by 10k DPS
Player waypoints and spends 45 seconds running back.
Group loses 450,000 damage

Player does, group DPS is now down by 10k DPS
5 players instantly start to revive, and spend 5 seconds reviving player at a cost of 6 players (5 ressurectors and dead) x 5 seconds x 10 DPS.
Group loses 300,000 damage

—

That’s not how it works.

With fair scaling, 10 players and a boss with 10M health. With 10k DPS per player, the boss would die in 100 seconds. After 20 seconds at 8M (80%) someone gets defeated.

1) He waypoints
Boss instantly scales down from 10M max health to 9M max health. Current health scales to 7.2M (80%). Player spends 45 seconds coming back. At that point, the boss has 45 * 10 * 9 = 4050K less health which equals 3150k (35%). Boss instantly scales up from 9M max health to 10M max health. Current health scales to 3500k (35%). If the player could reach the boss very fast, it would take 35 seconds to finish it up. Since 20 + 45 + 35 = 100, that would mean no DPS loss. In reality it takes some time to reach the boss after you have upscaled it so you would lose like 50k-100k damage.

2) He gets ressed
In optimal case (5 players instantly start reviving), it would be a 240k damage loss. However if you don’t get revived fast this can easily go to like 500k damage loss..

Hawkfeather.2071:

RoseofGilead.8907:

Forgotten Legend.9281:

one thing that would help:

if they reversed the change to “rez skills” to allow them to revive fully defeated players. like the elementalists revive glyph. i know they changed it for PvP balance before, but these skills are almost never used. they are in NO meta builds, because they are so useless. it generally takes longer to channel the skill than it does to simply use the F key to revive someone who is downed.

there was a time near launch that i always took the rez glyph on my ele, just for PvE events. because it was really cool to be able to revive a defeated player (or 3) during combat when it really mattered.

Maybe I’m not recalling correctly, but I can’t remember a time when those skills EVER revived fully dead players. As far as I can remember, it’s only ever revived downed players and dead NPCs.

Glyph of Renewal absolutely used to revive dead players. I carried it through beta and at launch when people were still trying to learn the game and everyone died all the time. I don’t believe it was intended though (or at least that’s what the claim was when they changed it), and very early on it was adjusted to only rez downed players.

…and with the long cast time I doubt anyone has ever really used it since.

Engineer’s Toss Elixir R is probably the best since it starts having an effect immediately and it has a 1200 range. Mesmer version is probably only used by trolls.

Astralporing.1957:

If you really did tag the event, then you’d have received the reward even if you were dead and/or half a map away. The only thing that can prevend receiving a reward from an event you have already tagged is dc or changing a map. So if you haven’t received a reward, it means that (whatever you might claim now) you haven’t really done 95% of the event. More, that you didn’t even tag it, which requires way, way less than 95%. And that is a L2P issue.

I’ve actually tagged an event. Left, did a bunch of stuff on the map and ended up on the opposite side. Swapped to another character for a while. Logged off. Logged back on several hours later on the original character and still got credit for the event.

There was also a less extreme case where I was on the same character the whole time and I only left the map for around 30 minutes.

After yesterday I redid all the calcs for a ton of cases. It is, in fact, always faster for the killtime to get the dead player out as fast as possible. (It’s even faster than it were if everyone stays alive, but that depends on if my scaling model is correct).

All this asside though, I think Kaz put it pretty well:

But in the end it really doesn’t matter, simply because this is a scenario where opinions are based on circumstantial evidence, and pseudo maths, and at this point neither side would be swayed to the other, even if they posted irrefutable proof.

If nobody’s coming after 5 seconds they probably wont, and so ‘you’ are probably better of waypointing, regardless of whether the ’group was better off or not.

And that is how you should behave I suppose. There are human factors on both sides, and I think you should just make it the most fun for everyone. Without beeing toxic in mapchat and yell to wp on one side. Without beeing a slacker/afker on the other side.

I still think the question is moot. Don’t wait for people to die. It’s far better to explain the important mechanics before the situation becomes dire.

Success (or failure) rarely is affected by scaling alone; we just need “enough” people to understand the fight (and for as few as possible to misunderstand it). If so many are dead that we’re arguing about waypointing, things are already kittened up [sic]; far better that we get our kittens [sic] in order in the first place.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I still think the question is moot. Don’t wait for people to die. It’s far better to explain the important mechanics before the situation becomes dire.

Success (or failure) rarely is affected by scaling alone; we just need “enough” people to understand the fight (and for as few as possible to misunderstand it). If so many are dead that we’re arguing about waypointing, things are already kittened up [sic]; far better that we get our kittens [sic] in order in the first place.

This. Definitely this.