Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

I can deny that people are leaving the game over it or at least, I can deny that mroe people aren’t leaving than are coming back. I play the game and it’s packed. My guild is busy. We’ve broken a hundred members for the first time without doing any recruiting at all.

The game is doing fine. SOME players wont’ like the game and those players will leave. This is no different than ANY MMO.

You claim I have no evidence…where is yours?

My points are good, even if you don’t agree with them. Leaving everything in game splits the playerbase more than it needs to be split and creates a different kind of pressure that some people would find very hard to deal with.

Either the game is doing fine (hey, it’s packed!) and more people are coming back or the game is in a state in which dividing the playerbase is a problem (see: ‘ghost town’), which is only a problem if there aren’t enough players to go around. You can’t have it both ways. Which is it?

Actually I can have it both ways. I’m not even sure why you can’t understand this problem.

WoW is the most successful MMO of all time, and it has dead zones and dungeons that don’t get done and wasted content out the kitten .

Do you think Guild Wars 2 has more players than WoW? I don’t. The combination of the playerbase being divided into Europe and the rest of the world, combined with the servers being separated combined with a casual player base that doesn’t ncessarily play every day and people taking time off and coming back…spread over 26 large zones…I’m really not sure what you expect.

If the most successful MMO of all time can have people complaining about empty zones, then I don’t see why Guild Wars 2, with far fewer players wouldn’t have something similar.

When I say EVERY MMO needs strategy to focus people I mean EVERY MMO. This doesn’t mean an MMO is going well and it doesn’t mean an MMO is doing badly. It means that an MMO needs strategies because the worlds are huge and a scattered player base ends up making the world feel empty.

This sounds (to me) like a plea for a server merge. Temporary content isn’t going to help. All temporary content can do is temporarily draw some of the players into a few zones temporarily. Meanwhile, back in the ghost towns…

Instead of promoting an even spread of players across the game engaging in a wide variety of thrilling content and other fun activities, temporary content can only temporarily offer a temporary nexus of temporary activity as some players temporarily hustle and bustle to make the proverbial hay while the sun (temporarily) shines, while those who are unable to play while this temporary sun is shining are (permanently) denied access to this temporary content. One might even say these players are punished, for not playing when they should have been playing, as determined by anet. Naughty players!

And another thing! If the game is fine and there is a healthy influx of new players coming in, then that means there are more (and more) players who haven’t done the old content. Which means the old content is… (omg) NEW! – to them. Maybe they could all get together and form a guild. And then do the old/new content, while everyone else is off burning effigies or bashing pinatas or whatever.

In conclusion: there is still no excuse for non-seasonal temporary content in an MMO.

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Too much content is scary to players. They need that choice taken away from them so they won’t be pressured into doing it.

Its not so much as scary, but overwhelming really. Actually I am curious how not more players agree here.

It’s simple.

People often leave games when they run out of things to do. They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content) than if there are more things to do (lots of permanent content).

Personally, I prefer games with ‘overwhelming’ amounts of content. Games with a wide variety of content – content that will be there when I’m ready to tackle it. I feel GW2 got off to a good start in this regard, a great start, even, but now this living story deal just isn’t providing the growth the game needs.

We new content coming out every 2 weeks MOST people will have stuff to do. The guys who can play 24/7..they’ll run out not matter what you do. So trying to appease them is next to pointless.

Some of them will come do the new stuff and leave until the next new stuff comes out. Some of them won’t.

But most people will have plenty to do with new content coming every 2 weeks.

killcannon.2576:

Aramean.2354:

Shadow Blade.1324:

a better example would be GW2 where you cannot catch up as those players will always be X amount of time ahead of you (assuming they keep playing) in laurels for acquiring BIS or WvW rank unlocks etc so you will never match them because you are time gated from doing so. you can also never experience the wealth of content that’s been removed from the game

Unfortunately, the only real way prevent time-gating is to put in other methods of slowing players down. I’ve typically found those methods to be frustrating as a player(heavy focus on dailies, weekly lockouts for high-end content, etc.). It’s just the nature of games that people who put more time into them get more out of them.

That’s funny…because there is already a heavy focus on dailies to get gear and achieves, and there is a limit on high end content you can do with guild missions, quartz, how many dungeons you can run in a day at full reward, how many times you can get meta chests.

So you get all three here.

I guess it’s different for me because the slowdowns are preventing you from getting stuff rather than experiencing content. Other games make you do dailies for a month just to become powerful enough to get into certain content. *Keep in mind I haven’t tried out the guild missions, etc. so that could be different.

Look, I get it. Each player is unique and is motivated by different things. Some people are completionists and it really bothers them if there is a chance they will never max out on achievement points. Some people really enjoy getting new gear and the thought of missing a set is disheartening. For me personally, it’s the story driven content and dungeons that draw me the most.

I think there are really good points throughout this whole discussion. Temporary content, for some players, can make the world seem more alive and helps to draw players to the same content. This can be a positive thing. Other players really enjoy ‘getting things done’ in an MMO. It’s the reason that achievement points have permeated all types of games. For those players temporary content only serves as a frustrating way for the game to remind them of what they missed out on.

At the end of the day, ArenaNet is going to continue to release a mix of temporary and permanent content. I’ve already mentioned in a previous post the changes I’d like to see to the temporary content as I’ve not been happy with all of the decisions. Let’s try to keep in mind that this forum is a chance for players to tell the developers what we all personally enjoy and how we would like the game to be tailored to that. It’s one thing to bring up counterpoints….it’s completely another to try to tell someone they are incorrectly enjoying the game. (This isn’t directed at you killcannon…..just the entire discussion in general).

Kreslin.6832:

If you think it’s not, fine, but your opinion doesn’t change that fact, that GW2 has too much temporarily content.

It’s not a fact that we have too much temporary content. It’s only an opinion.

AntiGw.9367:

Kaaboose.3897:

Game Of Thrones

Completely irrelevant analogy.

Kaaboose.3897:

New players

New players have a crapton of content to play with anyway, and new events of the Living Story. They are not missing anything by not doing the old ones.

Kaaboose.3897:

I may have missed something here, and that’s why I’m making this post, but what exactly are the benifits of focusing on temporary content? The only benifit I can think of that someone might put forwards is that temporary content makes the game more immersive.

Living Story is about content that is not static. The old MMO model is dying, it’s silly to have the same world that doesn’t ever change. Old MMOs did it because of the limitations they had, not because it was better. GW2 is trying to escape those limitations, and create content that is evolving over time.

I love how the Flame and Frost update changed the world. Those three? or four months of that content update really had an incredible impact on Tyria. The Molten Alliance was such a scary and compelling opponent, shutting them down via the Living Story and having that content be temporary really makes the world feel alive, especially when you look at how different the world is now. Wait, what? You’re saying the world is exactly the same as it was before that content but now we have to vote to get the old content to return to the game rather than maintain it as a permanent addition to the game, bolstering the permanent experience?

koopatroopa.5360:

Temporary content will only make GW2 refreshing, exciting, and thrive. It can’t hurt the game at all.

If this had a sub, it would be a different story.

You know what’s more important that subscription money? Time. You can always make more money, you can’t make more time.

Refreshing and exciting? If someone comes back to the game this month after not being here all year they will find out they missed out on four weapon sets (Flame and Frost one, Karka one, Dragon Bash one, the SAB ones) two dungeons (Molten Facility, Aetherblade Retreat – both of which were only around for a couple of weeks), one mini dungeon (Canache’s Layer), several mini-games (Crab thing, Dragonball, SAB), lots of back items and a several plots. They can’t access these things.

Now consider that the current content (Zephyr Sanctum) is almost 100% a jumping challenge. Sanctum Sprint, the crystal collections, the recycled jumping challenge achievement locations, the map itself. What if you are a player that hates jumping challenges? What if you are a player who prefers group dungeons. You can’t access the only two group dungeons added to the game this year because you missed them. If the current update doesn’t interest you, there is nothing new in the game that fills that role. If you are plot driven and like to immerse yourself in lore and follow the story lines but you had a busy semester at school or had to work a lot of overtime or went on vacation or a thousand other reasons why you might not log into the game, you completely missed almost all of the (light) story content added this year. All you have is a few NPCs to talk to and what appears to be the most light weight chapter yet (two NPCs wedged into the Sanctum “story” to acquire a contract).

What if you can play this month but you want to play a lot of WvW or are really working on that new dungeon set? You are pressured to ignore what you want to do and complete all the new content because if you don’t do it on ArenaNet’s timetable, you can never do it.

Adding new content to the game every couple of weeks might not hurt the game (it can) but removing it every four weeks certainly does. ArenaNet’s temporary content game design isn’t built around what offers the best experience to the player, it’s built around what pressures them to log into more often bolstering their active player metrics and creates a bigger audience for gem store purchases.

Shiren.9532:

You’re saying the world is exactly the same as it was before that content but now we have to vote to get the old content to return to the game rather than maintain it as a permanent addition to the game, bolstering the permanent experience?

If someone comes back to the game this month after not being here all year they will find out they missed out on four weapon sets (Flame and Frost one, Karka one, Dragon Bash one, the SAB ones) two dungeons (Molten Facility, Aetherblade Retreat – both of which were only around for a couple of weeks), one mini dungeon (Canache’s Layer), several mini-games (Crab thing, Dragonball, SAB), lots of back items and a several plots. They can’t access these things.

I think that this is an important distinction in a lot of these discussions. What we’ve seen so far is a world that changes and then reverts back, changes again and reverts back again. If you are a player that has consistently been in the game over the last few months, then you’ve had a variety of new experiences that weren’t available when the game launched. However, if you are a returning player the game hasn’t added very much at all in terms of new playable content.

To be fair, the game has changed a lot over the last few months with the laurels, dailies, achievement rewards, etc. But those are things that affect your character when you play through the content…..they aren’t new content to play through.

Now the game released with a good number of dungeons and they did add a new permanent one since it released less than a year ago. As someone who works for a software company I find it incredible that they are able to release new content as fast as they are. If you would have told me in August that within the first year the game would have seen a new permanent dungeon, 2-3 new sPvP maps, a new playable zone, and a plethora of new in-game systems (dailies/monthlies, achievement rewards, WvW leveling system) I would have been excited. The fact that we’ve also seen the incredible amount of other content that has been released as temporary is, in my opinion, stunning.

The disappointing thing for players like me is that there is significant amount of playable content that I will never be able to experience because I didn’t login for a brief period of time. It’s like “hey, we did these awesome things….too bad you’ll never see them!”

It’s very possible that ArenaNet is working on large permanent content as we speak. Obviously there are a number of elder dragons out there other than Zhaitan and new zones to unlock. If we end up getting those types of changes somewhat regularly, then it will help to lessen some of the disappointment in missing other content. If I was getting permanent content every so often and then using the temporary content as a way to hold me off in-between I could definitely live with that. Like I said, that could be exactly the plan but since that hasn’t been explicitly stated I can only talk about my opinions of the current temporary content release design.

Reclaimer.9276:

I agree with the op. I did every “living story” so far and don’t really have an idea whats it all about. To me it just has nothing to do with the lore. In my opinion they should have started adding things like crystal desert, isles of janthir, other dragons … anything but this.

The other thing for me is this updates were really not entertaining, I forced myself to get the achivement points (coz thats my gaming mentality) and thats it. So all in all each update entertained me for a few hours and then things got boring again. The only one I enjoyed was the advanture box.
I think they would be better off adding something like gvg asap rather then wasting resources on the living story. Gvg entertained many in gw1 for years. It’s gona be a year from relese soon and nothing of note was added in my opinion at least.

If you have no idea whakittens all about you really didnt do it properly. I am not judging what you did or what you didnt do if you say you did it, I am sure you did what you though you had to do and I am going to assume that was finishing of the achievements. But there is more to the living story then the achievements. Cutscenes, interacting with documents in game in the various areas, talking to npcs and reading the mails sent by the various characters gives a clear picture of whats going on. Not telling you what to do, just what to look for if you’re really interested in knowing whats going on going forward.

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Imagine we’re in an alternative universe and imagine if this were gw1 at release. Imagine they did the living story over there. Every 2 weeks we get some temporary content akin to what we’re getting now but then after 1 year and a half we still get all the content of factions.

Now tell me if thats the case would the negativity regarding the temporary content be still justified?

Imagine it is 1886 and the Benz Patent-Motorwagen is equipped with square wheels.

sure no problem… but what does that have to do with what we’re saying?

A bad idea is a bad idea, regardless of when or where it’s implemented.

If anet had gone the ‘living story’ route with GW, we probably wouldn’t be here today talking about GW2.

So what you’re saying is if gw1 did all that it did exactly the same but added LS it would have failed? This is what I dont get about this kind of critisism. I can accept people not liking something, its fine, there are things I dont like too. But why not just ignore those things you dont like. If Gw1 did what it did but added LS to them. Ignoring that LS still gives you the same Gw1 you got. The same Gw1 you are very happy with. How is adding more stuff to a successful product suddenly make it a failure?

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Too much content is scary to players. They need that choice taken away from them so they won’t be pressured into doing it.

Its not so much as scary, but overwhelming really. Actually I am curious how not more players agree here.

It’s simple.

People often leave games when they run out of things to do. They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content) than if there are more things to do (lots of permanent content).

Personally, I prefer games with ‘overwhelming’ amounts of content. Games with a wide variety of content – content that will be there when I’m ready to tackle it. I feel GW2 got off to a good start in this regard, a great start, even, but now this living story deal just isn’t providing the growth the game needs.

They’re adding new stuff every 2 weeks. How can you ever run out of stuff to do if you have new things to do every two weeks? Isnt no living story a lot worst? people claimed to have played everything by the end of the 2nd week of release. The 2nd week! they were wrong no doubt but thats how they felt. Proof posted on the 12th of september:
http://www.keenandgraev.com/2012/09/13/level-80-gw2-what-next

If you look you’ll find more.

If they keep this 2 weeks releases we’ll never going to end up with nothing to do. And permanent stuff is still being added with a promise that they’ll focus more on permanent then temporary stuff. Beyond this there is the long term stuff they’ve been working on. No doubt in my mind thats going to be permanent stuff as well.

This LS is merely them solving what was previously an unsolvable problem. How to provide enough content to keep people happy until we can release the next big thing.

Aramean.2354:

It’s very possible that ArenaNet is working on large permanent content as we speak.

They have said that they are working on permanent content too.

I would like to chime in a bit on this living story doesnt change any thing because everything reverts back to almost square one.

Thats how change works.. change is only change while it happens. I’ve given this example a million times now but here we go again. How did world war 2 change the world? while it was going on A LOT, countries being conquered, people dieing, buildings destroyed. How did it change the world for the next few years after it ended? So and so. You could still see the distraction of course, families torn apart by the horrors of the war and countries still occupied. How did WW2 change the world today? the only change that probably remains is a few treaties if that. All the damage has been fixed, the countries that were previously occupied regained their independence and everything went back nearly to square one.

What Flame and Frost did was immersive change like it should be. While it was going you had the bulk of change going on. People fleeing, refugee camps being set up, Area devastation (the weather effects, the gysers, the storms) , the actual assault on the outposts etc… After it finished changes where smaller, refugee camps were still there, a solution was sought for the refugees, cragstead lied in ruins etc… and then we moved into the next living story that used the change from the first as fuel. Those refugees were moved to southsun, they build villages, houses and outposts etc… things didnt work out there and they wanted to move out. that LS played out and what happened next? the refugees didnt mysteriously vanish in tin air. no they now can be found in cragstead and they’re rebuilding the town you can see them rebuilding and I mean right now as in Today we’re essentially 2 living stories after the living story that created these refugees. They were not deleted once their story played out now the change continues evolving as time passes.

From start to where we stand right now there was a distinct progression of events where stuff happened and those actions while predetermined had consequences and repercussions. In all honesty if only they managed to have these events evolve based on player interaction they’ll have achieved perfection.

Just measure that up to any other MMO out there. Even to Gw1 if you want which is one of the few MMOs out there that has a world that at least changes a little bit. Cause lets not forget that in 99% of MMOs other there the only change you ever get is just a paragraph of text saying what supposedly changed even though around you not one pixel shifted position from where it was between when you started the game and finished it. Which game did change better and how?

I really want to ask all those who’re making fun of us who think LS really is immersive living story with actual changes in the world actually occuring as the story evolves. What would you change? Taking all the Living story we got so far, what would you change to create real change in the world? or at least what is real change to you?

Vayne.8563:

We new content coming out every 2 weeks MOST people will have stuff to do. The guys who can play 24/7..they’ll run out not matter what you do. So trying to appease them is next to pointless.

Some of them will come do the new stuff and leave until the next new stuff comes out. Some of them won’t.

But most people will have plenty to do with new content coming every 2 weeks.

Isn’t that pretty much who this is aimed at? Those who have already done all there is to do and are just waiting for more content to be added?

They have always “appeased” those types of players. That’s the exact reason why fractals/ascended items were rushed in.

nethykins.7986:

Vayne.8563:

We new content coming out every 2 weeks MOST people will have stuff to do. The guys who can play 24/7..they’ll run out not matter what you do. So trying to appease them is next to pointless.

Some of them will come do the new stuff and leave until the next new stuff comes out. Some of them won’t.

But most people will have plenty to do with new content coming every 2 weeks.

Isn’t that pretty much who this is aimed at? Those who have already done all there is to do and are just waiting for more content to be added?

They have always “appeased” those types of players. That’s the exact reason why fractals/ascended items were rushed in.

Its aimed at everyone.

but it has to be balanced. if they increase the achievement by 10 the most hardcore of players will probably be busy all 2 weeks but casual will have no way of getting it. So its like somewhere in the middle.

Galen Grey.4709:

I really want to ask all those who’re making fun of us who think LS really is immersive living story with actual changes in the world actually occuring as the story evolves. What would you change? Taking all the Living story we got so far, what would you change to create real change in the world? or at least what is real change to you?

There’s good change, and there’s bad change.

In City of Heroes, particularly in the latter days of the game, the devs started making dramatic ‘living story’ type changes to the landscape. The first such change, at least during my time there, was when the area known as Faultline was pretty much entirely revamped – permanently – as portions of it were rebuilt. There were new enemy groups, new missions, new terrain features. The layout of Atlas Park changed quite a bit as new things were added (and retained!). The various low level origin missions were eventually replaced by a more or less ‘one size fits all’ story arc. Galaxy City, one of the two low level zones, was – alas! – destroyed during an alien invasion. Permanently. The ruins of Galaxy City became the setting for new tutorial.

I hated it. Most of it. Not necessarily all. Faultline, I felt, was well done. It made sense. The zone started out in ruins and was slowly being rebuilt (I figure, eventually, Boomtown would have received similar treatment). The Atlas Park changes, for the most part, were okay – although I didn’t see why the old early level origin missions couldn’t remain along with the new early level missions. Dark Astoria, one of the creepiest zones ever designed, got some new content added (which, sadly, I didn’t get to experience).

Galaxy City, though – that sucked. We lost an entire zone. It wasn’t changed – there was no plan in place to reclaim and rebuild it – it was just gone. One might even say that, even though it had been there for years, it ultimately turned out to be… temporary content.

I especially hated losing the Outbreak tutorial zone. It had become something of a tradition for me to have my new hero characters pose with Flower Knight – the greatest hero in the game. I also enjoyed putting my new heroes through their paces, gathering up groups of the Contaminated to see how many my heroes could handle at once. Sure, thanks to the Flashback system in Ouroboros I could return to that area, and play that mission with Flower Knight – but I couldn’t do that with my brand new characters. It just wasn’t the same.

We haven’t really seen any big changes here yet. Nothing with any lasting ramifications. Certainly nothing on par with the changes that came to Paragon City. I hope, when and if these changes do come, you pro-change guys are not as bitterly disappointed as I was, when such change came to some of my favorite places in what was once my favorite MMO.

Anyway, I don’t remember what I started out to say here, so I’ll shut up now.

Galen Grey.4709:

I would like to chime in a bit on this living story doesnt change any thing because everything reverts back to almost square one.

Thats how change works.. change is only change while it happens. I’ve given this example a million times now but here we go again. How did world war 2 change the world? while it was going on A LOT, countries being conquered, people dieing, buildings destroyed. How did it change the world for the next few years after it ended? So and so. You could still see the distraction of course, families torn apart by the horrors of the war and countries still occupied. How did WW2 change the world today? the only change that probably remains is a few treaties if that. All the damage has been fixed, the countries that were previously occupied regained their independence and everything went back nearly to square one.

What Flame and Frost did was immersive change like it should be. While it was going you had the bulk of change going on. People fleeing, refugee camps being set up, Area devastation (the weather effects, the gysers, the storms) , the actual assault on the outposts etc… After it finished changes where smaller, refugee camps were still there, a solution was sought for the refugees, cragstead lied in ruins etc… and then we moved into the next living story that used the change from the first as fuel. Those refugees were moved to southsun, they build villages, houses and outposts etc… things didnt work out there and they wanted to move out. that LS played out and what happened next? the refugees didnt mysteriously vanish in tin air. no they now can be found in cragstead and they’re rebuilding the town you can see them rebuilding and I mean right now as in Today we’re essentially 2 living stories after the living story that created these refugees. They were not deleted once their story played out now the change continues evolving as time passes.

From start to where we stand right now there was a distinct progression of events where stuff happened and those actions while predetermined had consequences and repercussions. In all honesty if only they managed to have these events evolve based on player interaction they’ll have achieved perfection.

Just measure that up to any other MMO out there. Even to Gw1 if you want which is one of the few MMOs out there that has a world that at least changes a little bit. Cause lets not forget that in 99% of MMOs other there the only change you ever get is just a paragraph of text saying what supposedly changed even though around you not one pixel shifted position from where it was between when you started the game and finished it. Which game did change better and how?

I really want to ask all those who’re making fun of us who think LS really is immersive living story with actual changes in the world actually occuring as the story evolves. What would you change? Taking all the Living story we got so far, what would you change to create real change in the world? or at least what is real change to you?

Well, I suppose people could look at a History book and see how it changed the world. That may be asking too much though I suppose.

The inventions. The borders changing. The rise of Soviet Russia. Women in the workplace (rise of women as bread winners and having families and careers). Rise of the new superpowers. The space race.The UN……. there are actually too many to list. WW2 caused lasting and visible change, not only to our physical world, but to our way of life.

Some like the LS because they see change. Many more people don’t.

Galen Grey.4709:

If they keep this 2 weeks releases we’ll never going to end up with nothing to do. And permanent stuff is still being added with a promise that they’ll focus more on permanent then temporary stuff. Beyond this there is the long term stuff they’ve been working on. No doubt in my mind thats going to be permanent stuff as well.

This LS is merely them solving what was previously an unsolvable problem. How to provide enough content to keep people happy until we can release the next big thing.

BUT WHY MAKE IT TEMPORARY! Every second post here is “We’re getting new stuff every 2 weeks!” So what? It doesn’t matter if we’re getting it every 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 10 weeks or whatever, what matters is that it will be gone soon and you won’t get to experiance it if you don’t play in the timeframe Anet allocates.
Yes, we’ve been told SOME of this content will be permenent but we have not been told what or how much.
This is especially concerning when both Anet and various posters in this thread harp on how lots of permenent content has already been added since realese.
We must have VERY different opionions of ‘lots.’ Or “Content” for that matter.
Compare the first year of WoW to the first year of GW2 in terms of temporary vs. permenent. (You can see it done here: http://youtu.be/NedWPHZCcik?t=1m26s) The stuff added there was meaninful to new and old players alike.
Even WoW had some temporary content in the first year! And it was a nice touch but it was most certinly not a focus.
Remember the thread title “Too Much Temporary Content Can Only Harm GW2.” A few temporary NPC’s and/or events that are relevent to the current state of the LS I would be just fine with. But adding and remvoing game modes/dungeons/storys and zones just for the sake of immersion is going too farm IMO.

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

I really want to ask all those who’re making fun of us who think LS really is immersive living story with actual changes in the world actually occuring as the story evolves. What would you change? Taking all the Living story we got so far, what would you change to create real change in the world? or at least what is real change to you?

There’s good change, and there’s bad change.

In City of Heroes, particularly in the latter days of the game, the devs started making dramatic ‘living story’ type changes to the landscape. The first such change, at least during my time there, was when the area known as Faultline was pretty much entirely revamped – permanently – as portions of it were rebuilt. There were new enemy groups, new missions, new terrain features. The layout of Atlas Park changed quite a bit as new things were added (and retained!). The various low level origin missions were eventually replaced by a more or less ‘one size fits all’ story arc. Galaxy City, one of the two low level zones, was – alas! – destroyed during an alien invasion. Permanently. The ruins of Galaxy City became the setting for new tutorial.

I hated it. Most of it. Not necessarily all. Faultline, I felt, was well done. It made sense. The zone started out in ruins and was slowly being rebuilt (I figure, eventually, Boomtown would have received similar treatment). The Atlas Park changes, for the most part, were okay – although I didn’t see why the old early level origin missions couldn’t remain along with the new early level missions. Dark Astoria, one of the creepiest zones ever designed, got some new content added (which, sadly, I didn’t get to experience).

Galaxy City, though – that sucked. We lost an entire zone. It wasn’t changed – there was no plan in place to reclaim and rebuild it – it was just gone. One might even say that, even though it had been there for years, it ultimately turned out to be… temporary content.

I especially hated losing the Outbreak tutorial zone. It had become something of a tradition for me to have my new hero characters pose with Flower Knight – the greatest hero in the game. I also enjoyed putting my new heroes through their paces, gathering up groups of the Contaminated to see how many my heroes could handle at once. Sure, thanks to the Flashback system in Ouroboros I could return to that area, and play that mission with Flower Knight – but I couldn’t do that with my brand new characters. It just wasn’t the same.

We haven’t really seen any big changes here yet. Nothing with any lasting ramifications. Certainly nothing on par with the changes that came to Paragon City. I hope, when and if these changes do come, you pro-change guys are not as bitterly disappointed as I was, when such change came to some of my favorite places in what was once my favorite MMO.

Anyway, I don’t remember what I started out to say here, so I’ll shut up now.

I didnt play city of heroes unfortunately so I got no idea about what you’re talking about from first hand experience, just from some research I just did. Talking about the faultline. from what I understand thats started out as a disaster area and one day over 2 years later they changed the map as if it was fixed or as if repairs started. Okey fair enough but isnt it a bit unrealistic that a disaster zone was left in ruins without help for years? In reality if you get a natural disaster or anything, help start right away no? How about permanent change? for the positive yes it makes sense but for the negative its not realistic. If some was to destroy town X the inhabitants wouldn’t just simply abandon it, they’re try to rebuild it.

It depends what you’re look for. I am more of a story type of guy. I dont want change for the sake of change, change should be in service of the story. Thats why I dont think change should ever be permanent. Change should be about revamping a zone it should be the result of events. So in my opinion after cragstead was razed to the ground by molten alliance it was a good choice to have it rebuilt slowly because thats what logically should happen and I am sorry but saying no change occurred because by the 5th LS release cragstead might be back to its former glory is wrong. Change shouldnt be something you always have to see the result off for ever. it should be something you experience as it happens and as things return to balance after its passing.

Kaaboose.3897:

It doesn’t matter if we’re getting it every 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 10 weeks or whatever, what matters is that it will be gone soon and you won’t get to experiance it if you don’t play in the timeframe Anet allocates.

It’s ok! There are many things you will never experience. Learn to let go.

Just uninstalled the game, for the many of the reasons cited here. I have not been able to do most of the Living Story content due to availability. I log in now and can’t find anything compelling to do.

Really wanted GW2 to be more than it is. Gameplay mechanics are awesome. Visuals are awesome. I am just not interested in the Treehearne novel, er personal story, or the long grind for cosmetic gear. I can do the PVE content with my current gear. PVP is not? bad, just not my thing.

Aramean.2354:

It’s very possible that ArenaNet is working on large permanent content as we speak. Obviously there are a number of elder dragons out there other than Zhaitan and new zones to unlock. If we end up getting those types of changes somewhat regularly, then it will help to lessen some of the disappointment in missing other content. If I was getting permanent content every so often and then using the temporary content as a way to hold me off in-between I could definitely live with that. Like I said, that could be exactly the plan but since that hasn’t been explicitly stated I can only talk about my opinions of the current temporary content release design.

That might fix the problem of “not enough new content for returning players” but it does not fix the problem of temporary content.. like being ‘pressured’ to play, missing out on that temporary content like achievements, dungeons, rewards, skins and so on.

Galen Grey.4709:

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Imagine we’re in an alternative universe and imagine if this were gw1 at release. Imagine they did the living story over there. Every 2 weeks we get some temporary content akin to what we’re getting now but then after 1 year and a half we still get all the content of factions.

Now tell me if thats the case would the negativity regarding the temporary content be still justified?

Imagine it is 1886 and the Benz Patent-Motorwagen is equipped with square wheels.

sure no problem… but what does that have to do with what we’re saying?

A bad idea is a bad idea, regardless of when or where it’s implemented.

If anet had gone the ‘living story’ route with GW, we probably wouldn’t be here today talking about GW2.

So what you’re saying is if gw1 did all that it did exactly the same but added LS it would have failed? This is what I dont get about this kind of critisism. I can accept people not liking something, its fine, there are things I dont like too. But why not just ignore those things you dont like. If Gw1 did what it did but added LS to them. Ignoring that LS still gives you the same Gw1 you got. The same Gw1 you are very happy with. How is adding more stuff to a successful product suddenly make it a failure?

This whole thing is build around the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it. So it’s not just about “I don’t like it so I don’t do it” but it’s about.. I maybe like the content maybe not but if I do not do it now I miss out on it being the event, the rewards, the dungeons and if I was not here I did miss out on something I would have liked.

So your argument is invalid. It’s not like there is something in the game people don’t like. There was something they liked but Anet took it out again. + in a way people get pressured in doing it.

The sad thing is that Anet already did this with the daily’s when introducing the Laurels and they got a lot of complains about that but in stead of doing something with those complains they do the same trick on a much lager scale.

You see a laurel is also like temporary content.. that one laurel you can only get today.. tomorrow you can get another one but if you missed out on today’s one you will not get anymore.. And that works in a annoying way where people sort of get pressured to do the daily but for how long.. At some point people will start losing interest while the bad feeling of being pressured is still there.

I do understand the marketing technique behind it and it works but only in the short run. And the more of those pressure moments you make the faster it will work out. Some how most financial people only look at the short term what is fine in the short term but will be bad in the long term.

Galen Grey.4709:

Tachenon.5270:

Galen Grey.4709:

Too much content is scary to players. They need that choice taken away from them so they won’t be pressured into doing it.

Its not so much as scary, but overwhelming really. Actually I am curious how not more players agree here.

It’s simple.

People often leave games when they run out of things to do. They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content) than if there are more things to do (lots of permanent content).

Personally, I prefer games with ‘overwhelming’ amounts of content. Games with a wide variety of content – content that will be there when I’m ready to tackle it. I feel GW2 got off to a good start in this regard, a great start, even, but now this living story deal just isn’t providing the growth the game needs.

They’re adding new stuff every 2 weeks. How can you ever run out of stuff to do if you have new things to do every two weeks? Isnt no living story a lot worst? people claimed to have played everything by the end of the 2nd week of release. The 2nd week! they were wrong no doubt but thats how they felt. Proof posted on the 12th of september:
http://www.keenandgraev.com/2012/09/13/level-80-gw2-what-next

If you look you’ll find more.

If they keep this 2 weeks releases we’ll never going to end up with nothing to do. And permanent stuff is still being added with a promise that they’ll focus more on permanent then temporary stuff. Beyond this there is the long term stuff they’ve been working on. No doubt in my mind thats going to be permanent stuff as well.

This LS is merely them solving what was previously an unsolvable problem. How to provide enough content to keep people happy until we can release the next big thing.

You are defending regular updates here, not temporary content. And believe it or not but people will even get bored of being pressured in doing something every 2 weeks. Make it non-temporary and the pressure is there but the “there is something ‘new’ to do” is still there.

But then again.. the whole idea is to create the pressure because they want people to be online and buy gems, and it will work for some time.. until people get bored of being pressured into doing stuff or after completionist have missed to much or after new players get frustrated because the whole time they ask somebody “nice weapon / mini / armor, where did you get that?” the answer is “From some event last year, but you can’t get that anymore”.

Galen Grey.4709:

I would like to chime in a bit on this living story doesnt change any thing because everything reverts back to almost square one.

Thats how change works.. change is only change while it happens. I’ve given this example a million times now but here we go again. How did world war 2 change the world? while it was going on A LOT, countries being conquered, people dieing, buildings destroyed. How did it change the world for the next few years after it ended? So and so. You could still see the distraction of course, families torn apart by the horrors of the war and countries still occupied. How did WW2 change the world today? the only change that probably remains is a few treaties if that. All the damage has been fixed, the countries that were previously occupied regained their independence and everything went back nearly to square one.

The attackers lost the war but still all the dead people did not come back to life so it changed the word in a big big big way. Till this day Germany is not allowed to have an army. Because many people died they did not get kids but the person who they would else have had kids with might have kids with somebody else, who else would have kids with somebody else and so on… If there would not have been a war the world would be totally differed today. We most likely would not have goon to the moon yet and satellites might still not exist or where just new meaning mobile phones where not yet as advanced. I can basically go on for hours as all the possible difference are infinite and while we don’t know the exact number of changes we know it’s a lot.

The only thing that really is gone is the event itself. There was a war and thats over.

Thats exactly why I said I don’t mind if the events them-self are temporary.. I still would say make it possible to look back at it (Like history books / video’s) but link achivements, items, rewards and so to the content that stays. There is no problem in doing that (except for the fact that is does not fit the marketing plan.. thats why I simultaneously say, change you marketing plan by focusing on expansions in stead of on the gem-store).

AntiGw.9367:

Kaaboose.3897:

It doesn’t matter if we’re getting it every 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 10 weeks or whatever, what matters is that it will be gone soon and you won’t get to experiance it if you don’t play in the timeframe Anet allocates.

It’s ok! There are many things you will never experience. Learn to let go.

In real life yes. luckily in games there is no need for that.

Really what you say is ‘yes it’s bad, learn to live with it’.. Well the think is, indeed many people think thats bad but there is no need for it to bee this way. Learn to make the best of it.

This whole thing is build around the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it.

Is it gonna take 10+ pages for people realize that was their (very lame and pushy) strategy?

Also, how many more statements from Colin is it gonna take so people realize they are gonna make more permanent content? Probably if he had said “ALL content is gonna be permanent” could make people settle down but c’mon: WWII analogies? lol. This is way overdebated.

They have already acknowledged all temp content is a bad idea! Let’s just see how they’re gonna act on it…

Aramean.2354:

Shiren.9532:

You’re saying the world is exactly the same as it was before that content but now we have to vote to get the old content to return to the game rather than maintain it as a permanent addition to the game, bolstering the permanent experience?

If someone comes back to the game this month after not being here all year they will find out they missed out on four weapon sets (Flame and Frost one, Karka one, Dragon Bash one, the SAB ones) two dungeons (Molten Facility, Aetherblade Retreat – both of which were only around for a couple of weeks), one mini dungeon (Canache’s Layer), several mini-games (Crab thing, Dragonball, SAB), lots of back items and a several plots. They can’t access these things.

I think that this is an important distinction in a lot of these discussions. What we’ve seen so far is a world that changes and then reverts back, changes again and reverts back again. If you are a player that has consistently been in the game over the last few months, then you’ve had a variety of new experiences that weren’t available when the game launched. However, if you are a returning player the game hasn’t added very much at all in terms of new playable content.

To be fair, the game has changed a lot over the last few months with the laurels, dailies, achievement rewards, etc. But those are things that affect your character when you play through the content…..they aren’t new content to play through.

Now the game released with a good number of dungeons and they did add a new permanent one since it released less than a year ago. As someone who works for a software company I find it incredible that they are able to release new content as fast as they are. If you would have told me in August that within the first year the game would have seen a new permanent dungeon, 2-3 new sPvP maps, a new playable zone, and a plethora of new in-game systems (dailies/monthlies, achievement rewards, WvW leveling system) I would have been excited. The fact that we’ve also seen the incredible amount of other content that has been released as temporary is, in my opinion, stunning.

The disappointing thing for players like me is that there is significant amount of playable content that I will never be able to experience because I didn’t login for a brief period of time. It’s like “hey, we did these awesome things….too bad you’ll never see them!”

It’s very possible that ArenaNet is working on large permanent content as we speak. Obviously there are a number of elder dragons out there other than Zhaitan and new zones to unlock. If we end up getting those types of changes somewhat regularly, then it will help to lessen some of the disappointment in missing other content. If I was getting permanent content every so often and then using the temporary content as a way to hold me off in-between I could definitely live with that. Like I said, that could be exactly the plan but since that hasn’t been explicitly stated I can only talk about my opinions of the current temporary content release design.

People are simply too focused on dungeons. I don’t really think that was ever Anet’s focus, not even in Guild Wars 1. They’re focused more on the world. When they released War in Kryta in Guild Wars 1 it wasn’t a dungeon. Nor was any of the other new content after Eye of the North came out.

So you ignore the meta event and other new events, the new jumping puzzle, the moa racing and the new drinking game all of which are staying. You ignore that Cragstead has indeed changed and so has Southsun (Southsun has actually changed quite a lot).

You even ignore the guild missions that have changed those areas an added content.

And the new PvP map.

You can say the game hasn’t changed, but what you’re really saying is there hasn’t been a permanent DUNGEON.

That’s only one type of change. And I think you’d be very surprised at how few people actually focus on dungeons out of the entire playerbase, just as many who raid on other games doesn’t see how few people by percentage actually like raiding.

For those who say people are going to leave the game…it means zero. Nothing. People are going to leave the game no matter what. People are going to leave other games too. In one quarter WoW dropped from 10 million subscribers to 8.3 million. That’s a whole lot of people leaving. It’s what happens with games. No game is going to entertain everyone indefinitely.

The real and ONLY question is, what percent of the playerbase is leaving over time and how many are returning and how many will stay.

You have several types of players involved here.

You have people who don’t Pve at all and they don’t care. They’re waiting for changes to SPvP and WvW and tournaments or whatever.

Then you have the people who play mostly or exclusively PvE. Some of those people just play instances. It’s all they care about. They run fractals, do dungeons and everything else is filler. They’re not and never will be the majority in this game (and they’re not the majority in many other games too…though they often think they are).

Then there are people who are completionists who absolutely have to finish everything. I assume there are a fair few of these.

Then there are people who have TONS of time and other people who have relatively little time. And each will have their own needs and wants.

So how many people are going to leave this game over this. The most PvE completionists might and some of the people who have too much time on their hands might (I’m one of those but I like what Anet is doing so that’s why I say might).

This whole I’m leaving so this is bad nonsense, or everyone is going to leave because I don’t like it nonsense is just that…nonsense.

Change it so it’s the way one group likes it and OTHER PEOPLE will leave. Someone is always going to leave. That’s the nature of the game.

And new people will find the game and some people will come back. That’s the nature of the game.

Is it a big deal? Probably not as big a deal as most people think.

Tachenon.5270:

They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content)

Hmmmm… This statement makes no sense. “fewer things to do” does not equate to temporary content.
Fewer things to do means not much content. We can look it up in the dictionary if you like.

Actually new content every two weeks be it temporary or permanent is MORE content. Means people have a lot to do.

Krosslite.1950:

Tachenon.5270:

They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content)

Hmmmm… This statement makes no sense. “fewer things to do” does not equate to temporary content.
Fewer things to do means not much content. We can look it up in the dictionary if you like.

Actually new content every two weeks be it temporary or permanent is MORE content. Means people have a lot to do.

How long does it take you to work through these living story installments? Does it take you a week? Two weeks? A month? How long? What do you do when you’re finished with the new temporary content? Do you keep doing it over and over? Do you just stop playing until the next batch of content comes along? Do you go back and do old content?

If, by some miracle, you go back and do old content while you’re waiting for new content, wouldn’t it be nice to have more old content to choose from, while you’re waiting for that new content?

I’m harmed, I mean I come back after a few months break, and I can’t even buy or work for the Sclerite Karka Shell. I want it bad, I’m quite disappointed and certainly not excited to wait around till next year, or perhaps never to get it :S

Tachenon.5270:

Krosslite.1950:

Tachenon.5270:

They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content)

Hmmmm… This statement makes no sense. “fewer things to do” does not equate to temporary content.
Fewer things to do means not much content. We can look it up in the dictionary if you like.

Actually new content every two weeks be it temporary or permanent is MORE content. Means people have a lot to do.

How long does it take you to work through these living story installments? Does it take you a week? Two weeks? A month? How long? What do you do when you’re finished with the new temporary content? Do you keep doing it over and over? Do you just stop playing until the next batch of content comes along? Do you go back and do old content?

If, by some miracle, you go back and do old content while you’re waiting for new content, wouldn’t it be nice to have more old content to choose from, while you’re waiting for that new content?

It takes me a week probably to get through the content. I don’t use Dulfy. And I have other things going in like Guild Missions and such.

Helping people in my guild get the kite in the Eternal Battlegrounds takes time, because lots of people need it who are on at different hours.

I’ve done most of the achievements so far and I play a lot.

Sure I could push myself and get every achievment on day two. And people who play like that will never have enough content. I don’t think Anet should waste time trying to appease them.

Particularly if it annoys the other group of people who would feel compelled to do the old stuff even if they will never be able to catch up.

Vayne.8563:

For those who say people are going to leave the game…it means zero. Nothing. People are going to leave the game no matter what. People are going to leave other games too. In one quarter WoW dropped from 10 million subscribers to 8.3 million. That’s a whole lot of people leaving. It’s what happens with games. No game is going to entertain everyone indefinitely.

The real and ONLY question is, what percent of the playerbase is leaving over time and how many are returning and how many will stay.

You do realise that’s one of the main points on why temporary content can’t succeed in the long run? Most players are NOT going to return because they know they’ll have missed a lot of content with no way of experiancing it.
And thoese that stay are inevetiable going to miss stuff. Some may “Deal with it” other may say “kitten it” and leave.

Mirta.5029:

Kreslin.6832:

If you think it’s not, fine, but your opinion doesn’t change that fact, that GW2 has too much temporarily content.

It’s not a fact that we have too much temporary content. It’s only an opinion.

Oooookaaaay. Let it be in your way.

Tachenon.5270:

Krosslite.1950:

Tachenon.5270:

They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content)

Hmmmm… This statement makes no sense. “fewer things to do” does not equate to temporary content.
Fewer things to do means not much content. We can look it up in the dictionary if you like.

Actually new content every two weeks be it temporary or permanent is MORE content. Means people have a lot to do.

How long does it take you to work through these living story installments? Does it take you a week? Two weeks? A month? How long? What do you do when you’re finished with the new temporary content? Do you keep doing it over and over? Do you just stop playing until the next batch of content comes along? Do you go back and do old content?

If, by some miracle, you go back and do old content while you’re waiting for new content, wouldn’t it be nice to have more old content to choose from, while you’re waiting for that new content?

per Colin in this Thread:

“be doing a much larger mix of permanent, recurring (content that can occur again in the future)”

“You’ll also see some of the content previously noted as “temporary” return permanently to the game in the 2nd half of the year”

“to build more polished content, and content that can be more impactful”

“We also have teams working on much longer term projects, which we will discuss when they are closer to arrival”

large mix of permanent …content

temporary content becoming permanent content

more polished and impactful content

also have teams working on longer term projects

gee.. i guess I won’t have to worry about how long I do something since I will have a nice mix of all types to do.

My reaction to over zealous delusional fandom:

Kaaboose.3897:

BUT WHY MAKE IT TEMPORARY! Every second post here is “We’re getting new stuff every 2 weeks!” So what? It doesn’t matter if we’re getting it every 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 10 weeks or whatever, what matters is that it will be gone soon and you won’t get to experiance it if you don’t play in the timeframe Anet allocates.
Yes, we’ve been told SOME of this content will be permenent but we have not been told what or how much.
This is especially concerning when both Anet and various posters in this thread harp on how lots of permenent content has already been added since realese.
We must have VERY different opionions of ‘lots.’ Or “Content” for that matter.
Compare the first year of WoW to the first year of GW2 in terms of temporary vs. permenent. (You can see it done here: http://youtu.be/NedWPHZCcik?t=1m26s) The stuff added there was meaninful to new and old players alike.
Even WoW had some temporary content in the first year! And it was a nice touch but it was most certinly not a focus.
Remember the thread title “Too Much Temporary Content Can Only Harm GW2.” A few temporary NPC’s and/or events that are relevent to the current state of the LS I would be just fine with. But adding and remvoing game modes/dungeons/storys and zones just for the sake of immersion is going too farm IMO.

Sure lets compare permanent content in both games in the first 10 months. WoW had what? 2x 5 man dungeons, 1x 40 man raid and 2 battle grounds. In Gw2 we had about a lot of guild missions, 9x fractals, 3x sPvP maps 1x new zone, about 50 new dynamic events, 3 new jumping puzzles, the new dailies, Custom Arenas, Costume Brawl, 1x meta event, the skritt burglar thing.

I think the 9 fractals easily match up to the 2 dungeons. All the guild missions probably match up to the 40 man raid (in terms of content size at least) and 3 spvp maps exceed the 2 battle grounds. That leaves gw2 with 50 dynamic events 3 jumping puzzles, 1 new zone, the new dailies, the custom arenas, costume brawl, a meta event and that skritt burglar thing more permanent content in its first 10 months then WoW released. On top of that there was a ton of temporary content which while not permanent was still stuff one could engage in. I am sorry but there is no way to claim WoW players got more content then Gw2 players did in the first 10 months, permanent content or temporary content Gw2 wins hands down.

Yes we’ve been told more or less how much permanent to temporary content there is going to be.. Quoting Colin “we’ve heard folks feedback on this and will be doing a much larger mix of permanent, recurring (content that can occur again in the future)”. " There will still absolutely be some amount of temporary, in particular story-driven moments to help drive the narrative forward. You’ll also see some of the content previously noted as “temporary” return permanently to the game in the 2nd half of the year."

So going forward there will clearly be a bigger amount of permanent content and a small amount of temporary content to drive up narrative. I honestly cannot understand why people accuse Anet of not listening when time and time again they proof themselves flexible. Lets hope they dont become too flexible cause I still believe a lot of permanent content in a game like gw2 where old content doesnt expire is dangerous to grouping.

And btw note that even content that was temporary is coming back, thus what temporary content we got isnt really temporary after all. And this is not some far future. just read this interview: Beware spoilers on whats coming next
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/news/page/1/read/28065/Guild-Wars-2-Cutthroat-Politics-Coming-July-23rd-Details-Inside.html

Devata.6589:

This whole thing is build around the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it. So it’s not just about “I don’t like it so I don’t do it” but it’s about.. I maybe like the content maybe not but if I do not do it now I miss out on it being the event, the rewards, the dungeons and if I was not here I did miss out on something I would have liked.

So your argument is invalid. It’s not like there is something in the game people don’t like. There was something they liked but Anet took it out again. + in a way people get pressured in doing it.

The sad thing is that Anet already did this with the daily’s when introducing the Laurels and they got a lot of complains about that but in stead of doing something with those complains they do the same trick on a much lager scale.

You see a laurel is also like temporary content.. that one laurel you can only get today.. tomorrow you can get another one but if you missed out on today’s one you will not get anymore.. And that works in a annoying way where people sort of get pressured to do the daily but for how long.. At some point people will start losing interest while the bad feeling of being pressured is still there.

I do understand the marketing technique behind it and it works but only in the short run. And the more of those pressure moments you make the faster it will work out. Some how most financial people only look at the short term what is fine in the short term but will be bad in the long term.

What you mention is entirely perception. How is this content build around “the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it” ? If I miss the entire flame and frost Storyline how am I in any way at a disadvantage? The worst that will happen is I play secrets of southsun, see all those refugees and I have no idea where they come from. BUT If I actually spend the time to talk to them they’ll explain what happened to them and while it will not be as detailed as if I was there I will still get an idea what happened. This content is in no way content that you can miss out,its content thakittens safe to miss out all you’ll miss is a couple of skins nothing else.

Yes laurels is another perfect example of how people’s perception works against them. Laurels are given as a reward for completing a daily. So if you miss a day you’re not loosing a laurel permanently you’re just not earning that laurel nothing else. The same thing happens with every dynamic event in the game. If I dont do a dynamic event I missed the reward it offers, why is that wrong / unfair? How is that any different then completing the daily? just cause the daily is locked to one reward per day it doesnt mystically turn it into something that you just cant miss. Laurels like anything is a currency. Currency is nothing more then virtual value for something. Currency is used so that people dont trade stuff directly so you dont run into a problem of how many chickens do I need to give you for that car? But ultimately thats what you’re doing. If a chicken is worth 5 euro and a car is worth 50k euro then that car is worth 10k chickens. Same here. If a piece of ascended armor is worth 35 laurels it just means that armor is worth 35 dailies, or 25 dailies and a monthly. No matter how many days / monthlies you miss you still need to complete 25 dailies and a monthly or 35 dailies just like everyone else. So if you miss a daily you didnt miss a laurel you just didnt do that daily hence you dont have the currency that represents it, ie the laurel. This whole argument If I dont do the daily that laurel is lost for ever is nothing more then players perception that I have to have my shiny as soon as possible working against them nothing else.

You want to know what not playing results in loosing out really looks like? play neverwinter. They too have a currency you get when you login every day. Only if you miss one day you dont miss out on the currency you’d get that day, you’d also loose what you acquired before. (to be fair you can only get 7 of this currency then you have to spend it or you’ll not get any more but still thats loss… not earning anything today is no a loss, its just not earning anything today)

Devata.6589:

You are defending regular updates here, not temporary content. And believe it or not but people will even get bored of being pressured in doing something every 2 weeks. Make it non-temporary and the pressure is there but the “there is something ‘new’ to do” is still there.

But then again.. the whole idea is to create the pressure because they want people to be online and buy gems, and it will work for some time.. until people get bored of being pressured into doing stuff or after completionist have missed to much or after new players get frustrated because the whole time they ask somebody “nice weapon / mini / armor, where did you get that?” the answer is “From some event last year, but you can’t get that anymore”.

They go hand in hand together. You’re calling these 2 week events as something that causes pressure cause there is not enough time to complete them, how is keeping them in game permanently going to solve the problem? If anything it will make it worst because if you’re not keeping up, keeping it in game is just going to increase the stuff you need to do and making it impossible to ever catch up.

If we get 20 hrs of content every 2 weeks and you can only play 15 of it, if its temporary next 2 weeks you’ll still have just 20 hrs to complete. in 1 years you’ll still have just 20 hrs of content to completed. if it was let in permanently next month you’ll have 25hrs to complete. in 1 year you’ll have 150hrs to complete in that 2 weeks period. How is that reducing pressure?

Devata.6589:

The attackers lost the war but still all the dead people did not come back to life so it changed the word in a big big big way. Till this day Germany is not allowed to have an army. Because many people died they did not get kids but the person who they would else have had kids with might have kids with somebody else, who else would have kids with somebody else and so on… If there would not have been a war the world would be totally differed today. We most likely would not have goon to the moon yet and satellites might still not exist or where just new meaning mobile phones where not yet as advanced. I can basically go on for hours as all the possible difference are infinite and while we don’t know the exact number of changes we know it’s a lot.

The only thing that really is gone is the event itself. There was a war and thats over.

Thats exactly why I said I don’t mind if the events them-self are temporary.. I still would say make it possible to look back at it (Like history books / video’s) but link achivements, items, rewards and so to the content that stays. There is no problem in doing that (except for the fact that is does not fit the marketing plan.. thats why I simultaneously say, change you marketing plan by focusing on expansions in stead of on the gem-store).

Sure you’re right but all that stuff isnt visual and people here are arguing that nothign change simply based on the fact that not much of it was visual but like you explain a lot really happens in the background it just you dont see all of that change at all!
Looking at Flame and frost through the same lens you used. If the motlen alliance hadn’t attacked the refugees wouldnt have existed, thus they wouldnt have gone to southsun. The villages wouldnt have been built there, canach wouldnt have insighted the karka, the karka queen wouldnt have come out. Cragstead wouldnt be destroyed thus it wouldnt be rebuilding right now and we wouldnt be seeing the remains of the refugee camps.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

You are defending regular updates here, not temporary content. And believe it or not but people will even get bored of being pressured in doing something every 2 weeks. Make it non-temporary and the pressure is there but the “there is something ‘new’ to do” is still there.

But then again.. the whole idea is to create the pressure because they want people to be online and buy gems, and it will work for some time.. until people get bored of being pressured into doing stuff or after completionist have missed to much or after new players get frustrated because the whole time they ask somebody “nice weapon / mini / armor, where did you get that?” the answer is “From some event last year, but you can’t get that anymore”.

They go hand in hand together. You’re calling these 2 week events as something that causes pressure cause there is not enough time to complete them, how is keeping them in game permanently going to solve the problem? If anything it will make it worst because if you’re not keeping up, keeping it in game is just going to increase the stuff you need to do and making it impossible to ever catch up.

If we get 20 hrs of content every 2 weeks and you can only play 15 of it, if its temporary next 2 weeks you’ll still have just 20 hrs to complete. in 1 years you’ll still have just 20 hrs of content to completed. if it was let in permanently next month you’ll have 25hrs to complete. in 1 year you’ll have 150hrs to complete in that 2 weeks period. How is that reducing pressure?

Simple. I can CHOOSE what content I want to do. And even if I couldn’t because for some reason it was manditory, If I really wanted to I could make the time to catch up if I had the time to spare at the point in my life.

Harbard.5738:

This whole thing is build around the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it.

Is it gonna take 10+ pages for people realize that was their (very lame and pushy) strategy?

Also, how many more statements from Colin is it gonna take so people realize they are gonna make more permanent content? Probably if he had said “ALL content is gonna be permanent” could make people settle down but c’mon: WWII analogies? lol. This is way overdebated.

They have already acknowledged all temp content is a bad idea! Let’s just see how they’re gonna act on it…

well in defense of the wwii analogies which I am guilty off, its not merely an analogy but more a study of change. That wasnt use to justify / debunk the need for permanent / temporary content but more off to explain the change we got while subtle is what you’re really expect would happen because changes are rarely visual and more conceptual so to speak.

Vayne.8563:

Kaaboose.3897:

Do you HONESTLY believe that more players want the choice of when and what to play taken away from them and would rather play on Anets schedual instead of their own?

Yes, I honestly believe more players want the choice taken away from them, or, more to the point, I think most players log in to relax and not think.

Well, that’s that then. I can see there is no point discussing this further with you.

Vayne.8563:

You can say the game hasn’t changed, but what you’re really saying is there hasn’t been a permanent DUNGEON.

Vayne makes a very good point here. You have to understand that not everyone likes the same things. You might find it hard to understand why people love this stuff but some do. I am not saying the game should go in the direction I like, I am not a big dungeon fan but I would certainly not mind nor complain if they added new permanent dungeons. I am not a pvp fan but I dont mind new sPvP Maps. Like wise those would like more permanent stuff have to accept the game is not about people who like that sort of thing its also about other types of content that people enjoy.

Let me tell you how I got hooked on gw1. When it launched unfortunately my friends and many reviews I’ve read said that gw1 wasnt a real mmo. That it was just a pvp game with some cheap PvE and thats mostly because everyone was instanced outside the maps making it feel nothing more then a multiplayer game at best. Unfortunately I let that propaganda effect me (which in part is why I know passionate in a way to try to avoid misinformation). One time I was bored, this was a couple of years in i think and I had seen an advert probably for one of the expansion, cant remember and I decided to give the trail a go. It was something like 14 days but a maximum of 10 hrs. I played for a couple of hours didnt stand out and couldnt help but the think that reviews and people’s opinions were right, the game was a gimmick with it being instanced and all and left it there for nearly the whole 2 weeks. Then just on the day it was going to expire I thought well lets play it one last time. And I got to a quest. A guy told me about he had to pick these spider eggs and how he wasnt strong enough to do it himself. Great I thought another one of those go do the work while I stand here relaxing. But then something entirely unexpected happened. The NPC didnt stay there relaxing in the sun, he didnt want me to pick up the eggs for him. He wanted me to watch his back and I watched in amazement as for the first time in an MMO (up till then) an NPC actually did something. When the quest concluded I went straight to buy the game and then all the expansions and the bonus mission pack. And glad I was because the instancing that people complained about for me turned out to be genius. NPCs could engage in the story, the game felt alive. Things happened, NPCs faught and died. The world changed if only while you were in that instance. That was what I had been waiting for all along and I nearly missed it all only because people said instanced made it feel fake.

The living story is that feeling taken to the next level. Change is still happening, the NPCs are still getting involved in whats happening. But now things dont reset the moment you leave the instance. More then that Things keep building on each other. That to me is just beautiful. People defending this arent defending it simply because we believe Arenanet can do no wrong. I personally spoke against ascended armor cause well that was content that felt dangerous to my vision of the game. But this, I defend this because I really think its great and I dont think it can have the same impact on the world if it was permanent. I am sure Arenanet are skilled enough to make sure the permanent stuff they’ll do along the temporary will make logical sense and so I am fine with the greater mix of permanent content to the temporary but I still believe some temporary content is essential to keep this high quality change going.

Hope that explains my view on this somewhat.

Vayne.8563:

For those who say people are going to leave the game…it means zero. Nothing.

Well zero is probably a bit harsh, I am sure Arenanet dont want to loose people as much as possible but that being said you do have a point that Arenanet also know some people leaving the game is inevitable and by stating you’re just good as gone you’re just gonna weaken your argument as you’re essentially saying this game does not serve my playstyle which in turn will result in developers focusing more to strengthen the content thats retaining players which is probably at the other end of the spectrum.

Simple speaking I quit threads harm more then they help. I hope no one feels by threating to quit they’re gonna blackmail game designer into doing what those people want from the game. It wouldnt even be physically possible even if it did work because it will take months to develop something new by which time either the player was serious and would have long quit or they were bluffing which would be pointless anyway.

Tachenon.5270:

Krosslite.1950:

Tachenon.5270:

They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content)

Hmmmm… This statement makes no sense. “fewer things to do” does not equate to temporary content.
Fewer things to do means not much content. We can look it up in the dictionary if you like.

Actually new content every two weeks be it temporary or permanent is MORE content. Means people have a lot to do.

How long does it take you to work through these living story installments? Does it take you a week? Two weeks? A month? How long? What do you do when you’re finished with the new temporary content? Do you keep doing it over and over? Do you just stop playing until the next batch of content comes along? Do you go back and do old content?

If, by some miracle, you go back and do old content while you’re waiting for new content, wouldn’t it be nice to have more old content to choose from, while you’re waiting for that new content?

honestly the whole two weeks and I rarely finish it all. I play every day about 2-5hrs each time and a collective 10 – 12 hrs in the weekend. about 4 hrs of that is spent on guild missions though and sometimes I take a break from the living story too and level one of my alts. The bulk of the time 90% of it is spend on it though.

Sure it would be nice to have more old content to choose from but if you’re saying you finish everything in less then the two weeks its meant for wouldnt you have already completed the old content anyway?

Edenwolf.6328:

I’m harmed, I mean I come back after a few months break, and I can’t even buy or work for the Sclerite Karka Shell. I want it bad, I’m quite disappointed and certainly not excited to wait around till next year, or perhaps never to get it :S

You’re disappointed sure but not harmed. You’re perfectly fine without the karka shell. It might be a good idea to keep an eye on whats going on while on break from the game.

Kaaboose.3897:

Simple. I can CHOOSE what content I want to do. And even if I couldn’t because for some reason it was manditory, If I really wanted to I could make the time to catch up if I had the time to spare at the point in my life.

Well good news there is old stuff that seems to be coming back as I pointed out in my other post. If thats done correctly it should make both camps happy to a degree at least. Will see what comes out of it.

The fact that I did 16/16 Bazaar Achievements in less than 3 days doesn’t help either.
Hell, I’m not even rushing or using any guide, everything’s too simplistic.
And what should I do now? Wait another week till I get other 5 hour content update?
How about adding new HARD permanent repeatable dungeons?
Is it too hard to create a decent hard content for players that want an actual challenge? Is 1% Hardcore 99% Casual content division unfair?

If done right this can be the better way than an expansion. Now if they release small bits and pieces at a time while they work on bigger pieces to add into the game that are permanent while maintaining a story it will work out better than an expac.

Problem with expacs are the fact that not everyone will have them/ afford to dish out extra cash to experience content right away. Not always the case but a case still. If they can flesh out the idea with making all of this stuff happen in real time ( which seams like what they are doing) while still being able to make enough money through the gems store to keep the business afloat

I would rather them do that than have them make an expac for $40-60 and not have some people be able to play it or cant join your dungeon from a different server because “whoops don’t have that extra content”. To me it makes sense.

About the “hardcore” and “casual” problem? that’s a ‘simple’ fix. GW1 had a solution to this and GW2 could as well but it will take a lot more programming. They called it “Hard Mode” as dungeons are now, make them a bit easier but reduce the amount of rewards you get. Want better rewards? or the reward of finishing it? HARD MODE, its a tougher challange and you get better rewards.

Normal mode Title= Dungeon Master
Hard Mode Title= Legendary Dungeon Master

That’s an example. They could add Hard Mode to other things later on if they wanted to. Hard Mode story missions if they desired. Give it time. I think that’s the best solution for everyone. Keep world stuff the same that can be the middle ground.

zityz.6089:

If done right this can be the better way than an expansion. Now if they release small bits and pieces at a time while they work on bigger pieces to add into the game that are permanent while maintaining a story it will work out better than an expac.

Problem with expacs are the fact that not everyone will have them/ afford to dish out extra cash to experience content right away. Not always the case but a case still. If they can flesh out the idea with making all of this stuff happen in real time ( which seams like what they are doing) while still being able to make enough money through the gems store to keep the business afloat

I would rather them do that than have them make an expac for $40-60 and not have some people be able to play it or cant join your dungeon from a different server because “whoops don’t have that extra content”. To me it makes sense.

About the “hardcore” and “casual” problem? that’s a ‘simple’ fix. GW1 had a solution to this and GW2 could as well but it will take a lot more programming. They called it “Hard Mode” as dungeons are now, make them a bit easier but reduce the amount of rewards you get. Want better rewards? or the reward of finishing it? HARD MODE, its a tougher challange and you get better rewards.

Normal mode Title= Dungeon Master
Hard Mode Title= Legendary Dungeon Master

That’s an example. They could add Hard Mode to other things later on if they wanted to. Hard Mode story missions if they desired. Give it time. I think that’s the best solution for everyone. Keep world stuff the same that can be the middle ground.

Zitzy, you’re arguemnt here is on small content injections vs. an expansion pack. Not Temporary content vs. Permenent content.
It’s a good argument with lots of merit don’t get me wrong though!