Guild Wars 2

Buttercup.5871:

hildegain.2106:

Buttercup.5871:

you’re stalking botters. Or, to put it more correctly, persons that you believe to be botters (sorry, I’m a lawyer, I couldn’t help myself)

I doubt that you’re a lawyer when you consider the 1-2minute checking of suspicious behaviour on a non-person to be “stalking”.

But, but, I am! Haha! The lawyer comment related to “persons you believe to be botters”. Because they’re not botters until Anet labels them as such (“innocent until proven guilty”, that kind of thing).

Now, whether your habit is to do “1-2 minute checking” is irrelevant; other people can do a 1-2 hour checking. It’s the potential use of this list that is tricky; your individual behaviour (or, more precisely, the behaviour as you state it to be on this forum, which may or may not be true for all we know) when using this list is entirely irrelevant in this context.

You sound more like a politician than a lawyer. When a person exhibits behaviours and/or glitches such as the botters would, it’s natural that people would become suspicious, would perform their own small investigation and botters would be reported.

I’m sure you’re well aware that botters are only caught and found guilty by Arenanet because some players get suspicious, investigate and then report. What you’re suggesting is that these people are guilty of breaching privacy, which they are not.

Please, don’t apply the idea of “real world following a person down a dark alley” to watching out for botting behaviour. It’s not even remotely the same. It could be more akin to stalking if the person in question were looking for email addresses and information gathering on a large scale of that individual, but we’re not.

Again, I’m seriously doubting that you’re a lawyer, I could say that I’m a cosmonaut and people would either have to take my word for it until I say something silly that arouses suspicions to the contrary or they could just outright think that because I brought that up in the context of a space debate in order to claim authority on the subject that I’m more than likely lying.

I share the OPs concerns about privacy issues, but I do not believe that going “completely invisible” would solve all of the issues.

First of all, I want to be visible to my friends in-game, I want for my guildies to be able to send me whispers, etc. All of these are practical features and I would not want to remove them for myself. I do not, however, want to be visible to people I don’t know, never consented to seeing me in their friend list, or actively blocked. So yes, there should be friend requests.

The other major issue that I have is with the account name being public information. The account name should be between me and ANet. It should not be displayed in game or on these forums. Various websites keep telling me to NOT share my account name with other people and always use my forum alias (for example) for that.

Public account names open the doors to targeted account hacking, googling people’s forum activities outside of the game, etc, and I really don’t see why this is a technical necessity. You might just as well add/report/… people based on their character names rather than account names; as long as ANet knows who’s who (and they do) and keep a track record of former character names after deletion of a character (which they would be able to do easily).

PS: I absolutely agree that privacy concerns need no justification, but for what it’s worth, I had a stalker once in RL who also joined all the forums and games I was active in, and used that information to deduct what times I was home and didn’t have friends over, and then turned up at my door step. He never did enough to legally justify going to the police, but he did enough to let me know that I could never hide from his watchful eye. I don’t think GW should facilitate this. It was unsettling and nerve-wrecking, and if I found myself in the same situation again, I would simply have to quit GW. I realise that this happens to only a small percentage of the player community, and if it has never happend to YOU specifically, then awesome, and all the best to you.

But I do think that ALL players would benefit from better privacy management.

hildegain.2106:

Buttercup.5871:

hildegain.2106:

Buttercup.5871:

you’re stalking botters. Or, to put it more correctly, persons that you believe to be botters (sorry, I’m a lawyer, I couldn’t help myself)

I doubt that you’re a lawyer when you consider the 1-2minute checking of suspicious behaviour on a non-person to be “stalking”.

But, but, I am! Haha! The lawyer comment related to “persons you believe to be botters”. Because they’re not botters until Anet labels them as such (“innocent until proven guilty”, that kind of thing).

Now, whether your habit is to do “1-2 minute checking” is irrelevant; other people can do a 1-2 hour checking. It’s the potential use of this list that is tricky; your individual behaviour (or, more precisely, the behaviour as you state it to be on this forum, which may or may not be true for all we know) when using this list is entirely irrelevant in this context.

You sound more like a politician than a lawyer. When a person exhibits behaviours and/or glitches such as the botters would, it’s natural that people would become suspicious, would perform their own small investigation and botters would be reported.

I’m sure you’re well aware that botters are only caught and found guilty by Arenanet because some players get suspicious, investigate and then report. What you’re suggesting is that these people are guilty of breaching privacy, which they are not.

Please, don’t apply the idea of “real world following a person down a dark alley” to watching out for botting behaviour. It’s not even remotely the same. It could be more akin to stalking if the person in question were looking for email addresses and information gathering on a large scale of that individual, but we’re not.

Again, I’m seriously doubting that you’re a lawyer, I could say that I’m a cosmonaut and people would either have to take my word for it until I say something silly that arouses suspicions to the contrary or they could just outright think that because I brought that up in the context of a space debate in order to claim authority on the subject that I’m more than likely lying.

When in doubt of your own argument, make it personal! Ha! Because my personal background is much more important than my argument, right? Please believe what you want. I didn’t include my background to give weight to my argument, I included it to indicate where my nit-picky remark came from.

And yes, I am glad that people report botters. I do, too. However, I highly doubt that using the contact list for this purpose was intended in this manner, and see the real potential for its abuse. Whether you, personally, do not abuse it is irrelevant to me. Edit: your personal attacks in this thread are however one of the reasons why I would even more strongly argue that my privacy in-game be protected in a better way, since my forum name allows you to stalk me without my consent. Again, whether you do so is irrelevant to my argument; the fact that you can is scary enough.

To me, it would be much more logical that people send a friend/contact invite, which the other person must accept. Without mutual consent, there should be no appearance on anyone’s contact list. Plain and simple. I also believe that there should be an in-game setting that you can set to “invisible” by default, so that noone sees you the moment you log in. This would be particulary useful to people that are part of two guilds, but – in order to avoid spite – do not want to show everyone that they’re online, playing in the other guild at that particular time. Particularly in a game that promotes membership of several guilds, the availability of this setting should be a no-brainer.

Buttercup.5871:

When in doubt of your own argument, make it personal! Ha! Because my personal background is much more important than my argument, right? Please believe what you want. I didn’t include my background to give weight to my argument, I included it to indicate where my nit-picky remark came from.

And yes, I am glad that people report botters. I do, too. However, I highly doubt that using the contact list for this purpose was intended in this manner, and see the real potential for its abuse. Whether you, personally, do not abuse it is irrelevant to me. Edit: your militant behaviour and personal attacks in this thread are however one of the reasons why I would even more strongly argue that my privacy in-game be protected in a better way, since my forum name allows you to stalk me without my consent. Again, whether you do so is irrelevant to my argument; the fact that you can is scary enough.

To me, it would be much more logical that people send a friend/contact invite, which the other person must accept. Without mutual consent, there should be no appearance on anyone’s contact list. Plain and simple. I also believe that there should be an in-game setting that you can set to “invisible” by default, so that noone sees you the moment you log in. This would be particulary useful to people that are part of two guilds, but – in order to avoid spite – do not want to show everyone that they’re online, playing in the other guild at that particular time. Particularly in a game that promotes membership of several guilds, the availability of this setting should be a no-brainer.

I have no need to make things personal, your argument is flawed and you’re picking at terms the way I would see a politician do so, so I’d naturally assume that would be your profession. There’s no need to make one’s personal background known, so doing so is often a sign of someone using it back-up one’s own argument. So yes, I can believe what I like and profession is really irrelevant in this case.

Your argument falls down to hypotheticals and pedantry at best. It doesn’t really matter if the system was designed for this purpose, it is being used in this way and I don’t see any real way in which it could be abused. (I’d like to hear of a realistic way in which it could be)

To be honest, yes there should be an ability to block players properly (remove yourself from their list and not be trackable), there should be a log-in invisible option (without status updates) but players should also not rely on the system to deceive the people they play with (which you’re suggesting would be a fantastic feature).

As for the confirmation of friends etc. The followers system was implemented to not have that, if you’re interested in talking to a person in future, you add them to friends and you appear on their followers. There should be a notification that someone has added you to friends also but I don’t think there particularly needs to be a confirmation for it. I see no breach of privacy and no real danger resulting from the system.

Again, I’m hearing of “abuses” of the system but never have I received any good example of this.

So in summary – yes invisible feature needs improving, so does block, but that’s about it.

hildegain.2106:

As for the confirmation of friends etc. The followers system was implemented to not have that, if you’re interested in talking to a person in future, you add them to friends and you appear on their followers. There should be a notification that someone has added you to friends also but I don’t think there particularly needs to be a confirmation for it. I see no breach of privacy and no real danger resulting from the system.

Again, I’m hearing of “abuses” of the system but never have I received any good example of this.

Have you not read my example of how the system could be absued (based on how a similar system WAS abused in my own past), only three posts up?

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

hildegain.2106:

As for the confirmation of friends etc. The followers system was implemented to not have that, if you’re interested in talking to a person in future, you add them to friends and you appear on their followers. There should be a notification that someone has added you to friends also but I don’t think there particularly needs to be a confirmation for it. I see no breach of privacy and no real danger resulting from the system.

Again, I’m hearing of “abuses” of the system but never have I received any good example of this.

Have you not read my example of how the system could be absued (based on how a similar system WAS abused in my own past), only three posts up?

I asked for a REALISTIC abuse of the system. You get no personal information out the friends list, nobody with any sense would post sensitive information in game or on the forums either.

Sorry but I fail to see this as an abuse of the system. Your kind of abuse could easily just start right here on the forums (instead of in the easy to abuse friends system you stated).

Give a realistic example of an actual abuse that puts people in danger.

Note: The only way you’d be a real target would be if your email address, your location, your ip, your password and your account info were all publicly available upon someone finding out your account name (which isn’t exactly likely is it?)

First of all why do have people to be physically endangered in real live to get something done? oO It can be as unpleasant if someone in the game is following someone around. And while this is not endangering someone in real live it can lower his/her enjoyment in the game and I don’t see why that should be necessary.

Second why do have people have to defend their wish to decide themselves which information they show to someone?

hildegain.2106:

Your argument falls down to hypotheticals and pedantry at best. It doesn’t really matter if the system was designed for this purpose, it is being used in this way and I don’t see any real way in which it could be abused. (I’d like to hear of a realistic way in which it could be)

Wait, let me get this straight. Because I have not yet suffered from this system, which I argue allows for abuse, my arguments and concerns are hypothetical, and therefore flawed?

So let’s say someone always brings his machete to my workplace. He does so because he says he needs it to slice his bread. According to you, I cannot protest to this, because I myself have not yet been sliced up by a machete yet? And, of course, it’s only important how the machete is being used, right – to slice bread – not how it can be used instead?

If you do not see the potential for the abuse of the contact list yet, then ask for it. But do so politely, without being condescending, and while respecting the rules of this forum and the players that attend it. This brings me to your remark that my concerns are pendantic. Do you actually believe that my privacy concerns, including those stated by the OP and others in this thread, are petty and irrelevant?

Needless to say that your continued personal attacks only reinforce my arguments that we need more privacy.

Pirlipat.2479:

First of all why do have people to be physically endangered in real live to get something done? oO It can be as unpleasant if someone in the game is following someone around. And while this is not endangering someone in real live it can lower his/her enjoyment in the game and I don’t see why that should be necessary.

Second why do have people have to defend their wish to decide themselves which information they show to someone?

They really don’t. Honestly I don’t even respond to the posters demanding justification when all I’m asking for are basic privacy functions that most MMORPGs already have in place. It’s really appalling actually that so many people are upset by the request for privacy.

hildegain.2106:

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

hildegain.2106:

As for the confirmation of friends etc. The followers system was implemented to not have that, if you’re interested in talking to a person in future, you add them to friends and you appear on their followers. There should be a notification that someone has added you to friends also but I don’t think there particularly needs to be a confirmation for it. I see no breach of privacy and no real danger resulting from the system.

Again, I’m hearing of “abuses” of the system but never have I received any good example of this.

Have you not read my example of how the system could be absued (based on how a similar system WAS abused in my own past), only three posts up?

I asked for a REALISTIC abuse of the system. You get no personal information out the friends list, nobody with any sense would post sensitive information in game or on the forums either.

Sorry but I fail to see this as an abuse of the system. Your kind of abuse could easily just start right here on the forums (instead of in the easy to abuse friends system you stated).

Give a realistic example of an actual abuse that puts people in danger.

Note: The only way you’d be a real target would be if your email address, your location, your ip, your password and your account info were all publicly available upon someone finding out your account name (which isn’t exactly likely is it?)

Your whole argument is based on the assumption that the stalking or bullying STARTS in GW2 and can’t bleed into RL, but my own example was that of stalking that started in RL and bled into forums and games. Those forums and games were a welcome and easy to use tool which facilitated the RL stalking if/when it already takes place. You fail to address this in your reply, completely.

This is why I asked whether you had simply not read my example, and somehow I am still asking myself the same question.

Snow White.9680:

Pirlipat.2479:

First of all why do have people to be physically endangered in real live to get something done? oO It can be as unpleasant if someone in the game is following someone around. And while this is not endangering someone in real live it can lower his/her enjoyment in the game and I don’t see why that should be necessary.

Second why do have people have to defend their wish to decide themselves which information they show to someone?

They really don’t. Honestly I don’t even respond to the posters demanding justification when all I’m asking for are basic privacy functions that most MMORPGs already have in place. It’s really appalling actually that so many people are upset by the request for privacy.

well most of your suggestions to most people opposing them would bring lots of difficulty.
If a person starts invisible, even if you know that they’re online you can’t whisper them. Their mail can be full. Maybe they would forget to the invisibility off and contacting them for dungeons and stuff would get really difficult.
We use the friends list to check for bots and to report bots. Some monitor their friends via friends list and catch hackers that took your friends account.
It’s not that people are opposing to extra security, it’s how it will be implemented that’s the problem and that’s what most people are discussing.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

but my own example was that of stalking that started in RL and bled into forums and games. Those forums and games were a welcome and easy to use tool which facilitated the RL stalking if/when it already takes place. You fail to address this in your reply, completely.

The in-game and forum system is not at fault for RL stalking bleeding over into a game’s space, if this kind of thing DOES happen, you can report the people doing it and/or change your account. I have yet to see a realistic example of the game’s system putting people at risk, try again.

Pirlipat.2479:

First of all why do have people to be physically endangered in real live to get something done?

Second why do have people have to defend their wish to decide themselves which information they show to someone?

1. They don’t need to be physically endangered, they need to be plainly endangered, that’s when people get banned and/or arrested.

2. Information such as Display Name (available in game and in forums that endangers no-one) and achievement points (endangers no-one). Your sensitive information is available only to people that you share it with (at your own risk)

Buttercup.5871:

Wait, let me get this straight. Because I have not yet suffered from this system, which I argue allows for abuse

You have not stated HOW this could be realistically abused though. If there is an actual risk, then it would be fixed outright. I’m saying that blocking and invisibility is perfectly fine but the followers system is not risky for ANYONE, especially not if there would be an option implemented to remove followers (which I said would be a nice addition)

Mirta.5029:

it’s how it will be implemented that’s the problem and that’s what most people are discussing.

Exactly right. I’m all for extra security, but I’m baffled by some people’s claims of risk and information being available to others (which would be achievement points and display name, no email address, no physical address, no ip, no account info or anything of that sort is even available outside of TELLING people this)

This is stupid, i cant believe heated arguments like this can start from a simple, reasonable request from the OP.

Gathslan.1870:

This is stupid, i cant believe heated arguments like this can start from a simple, reasonable request from the OP.

It’s not the request that people are arguing over really, we can all agree that more options need to be added, like removing followers, blocking people properly and whatnot.

It’s how the system is implemented that’s debatable and some people are getting overly paranoid and having a nice feud over it.

@hildegain: leaving out the second part of my post doesn’t make your post more valid. I was exactely doing the oposit of what you claime to be paranoid, just cutting off some parts of it to make it look paranoid is not a very clean way to argue.

Edit: and once and again, I think it is noones business to know when I’m on and which zone I am in, if I don’t want to let that person know.

I think the easiest way to fix this would be if you appeared completely offline at all times to anyone on your blocked list.

hildegain.2106:

Gathslan.1870:

This is stupid, i cant believe heated arguments like this can start from a simple, reasonable request from the OP.

It’s not the request that people are arguing over really, we can all agree that more options need to be added, like removing followers, blocking people properly and whatnot.

It’s how the system is implemented that’s debatable and some people are getting overly paranoid and having a nice feud over it.

Alright, i will admit i didn’t read far in the thread and just assumed (as my brain didn’t come up with this scenario) so that is entirely my fault ;p

Mirta.5029:

well most of your suggestions to most people opposing them would bring lots of difficulty.

If a person starts invisible, even if you know that they’re online you can’t whisper them. Their mail can be full. Maybe they would forget to the invisibility off and contacting them for dungeons and stuff would get really difficult.

Difficulty for who? People trying to contact someone appearing offline? Yeah that’s kind of the idea. If I’m appearing offline, I don’t want to be contacted at all.

Mirta.5029:

We use the friends list to check for bots and to report bots. Some monitor their friends via friends list and catch hackers that took your friends account.

While I find it admirable you’re so proactive about catching bots, it’s not really your job to monitor accounts, and it’s most certainly not worth the expense of player privacy.

hildegain.2106:

It’s how the system is implemented that’s debatable and some people are getting overly paranoid and having a nice feud over it.

Perhaps you wouldn’t mind answering a few questions of my own?

1. Why does anyones personal reasons for wanting to remain private concern you?
2. Why do you feel it necessary to belittle other peoples experiences?

For those who have been on the receiving end of abuse (in-games or out) it is very real, and very serious. By chalking it up to nothing but paranoia and/or drama, you are victim blaming.

Lets be perfectly clear here. Abusers have no place in this game in the first place. Bullying, stalking, or gathering personal information should be a bannable offence, no if, ands or buts.

It’s unfortunate that threads like this even exist, because like many other real world examples, the last thing we should be doing is allowing this behaviour to be tolerated in game. Unfortunately, the reality is that we can’t expect others to always have our best interests in mind. This is why we need tools (and laws) to protect ourselves against those who would seek to harm us.

When it comes to a video game, allowing users to effectively control who can interact with them in-game and online, is something that should have been implemented from square one. Even 13 year old programs like MSN Messenger have basic security features to protect users from abuse.

Online abuse is very real, and serious. We need more people like Snow White demanding tools and policies that protect us, and less people like you who trivialize everything.

Snow White.9680:

Mirta.5029:

well most of your suggestions to most people opposing them would bring lots of difficulty.

If a person starts invisible, even if you know that they’re online you can’t whisper them. Their mail can be full. Maybe they would forget to the invisibility off and contacting them for dungeons and stuff would get really difficult.

Difficulty for who? People trying to contact someone appearing offline? Yeah that’s kind of the idea. If I’m appearing offline, I don’t want to be contacted at all.

Mirta.5029:

We use the friends list to check for bots and to report bots. Some monitor their friends via friends list and catch hackers that took your friends account.

While I find it admirable you’re so proactive about catching bots, it’s not really your job to monitor accounts, and it’s most certainly not worth the expense of player privacy.

so it is bad when players catch hackers like that too?
Yes, more privacy is nice, but I’m just saying that it should be put in without causing trouble.
One way of doing it would be to make sure that when you block a person they see you as always offline. That way it doesn’t ruin anyone’s game experience.
Though if Anet would hire a professional bot hunting team that would greatly help too.

Pirlipat.2479:

@hildegain: leaving out the second part of my post doesn’t make your post more valid. I was exactely doing the oposit of what you claime to be paranoid, just cutting off some parts of it to make it look paranoid is not a very clean way to argue.

Edit: and once and again, I think it is noones business to know when I’m on and which zone I am in, if I don’t want to let that person know.

I didn’t cut out anything that made your paranoia look any less like paranoia, feel free to prove how I did so and please give me a realistic way in which the current system that endangers NO-ONE puts people at risk, otherwise you’re merely fear-mongering and I’m frankly sick of it.

Hello,

If you think a player is stalking/harrassing you, please contact our customer support team with any information you may have, and our GM team will look into it.

However, since this thread has run its course, it is now closed.

Thank you for your understanding.