Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

Because nobody is forcing you. You’re forcing yourself and it’s half funny and half sad.

I’m going to do something that’s probably going to ruin your game experience if what you wrote above is true.
I’m going to reveal the fact that : Currently the most profitable content in this game is the trading post – and anyone who wants to make money should learn how to play it and get spreadsheets and calculators and get cracking.

If what you wrote above is true – you’re going to become a TP guy right? Hardly.

You know, I know, everybody knows the TP is where it’s at yet I don’t find myself getting a master’s in economics any time soon. And neither will you.

The bottom line is this " pressure " you speak of is something you’re putting on yourself – and it’s a pretty far cry from the casual laid back Vayne you make yourself out to be on the forums.

Nobody is forcing you to play what you don’t like.

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

First of all, I didn’t use the word forced, I used the word pressured. There’s a not so subtle difference between those words.

Secondly I’m not just talking about me. You think I am, but this is a well known phenomena throughout the industry. You haven’t heard about people doing boring, uninteresting things to get rewards? Because it’s in just about every MMO.

I know so many people who don’t enjoy raiding, but they want the gear. I knew people who farmed polar bear minis with no real chance of getting them for weeks on end. I’ve seen people grind out titles doing the more boring stuff imaginable even in Guild Wars 1. So yes, this is a real thing and if it happens here, it’ll be a problem.

Even if you’re not one of the people who have that problem.

problem is, we already do boring stuff to get what we want in this game.
Tp merchant game, boring(to many)
Champ train (boring)
EOTM (boring)
Ascended mats (boring)

Why are these boring things aok, and if you dont like them you shouldnt do them(even though its less effecient), but doing challenging content to get better rewards is inherently wrong.

why is inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards?

Well, the question becomes if it’s hard enough for the top 5% and 95% can’t get that stuff, you’re pressuring 95% of the fan base.

Would you rather lose 5% of your playerbase, or 10% of 95%.

I’m not saying those are the right numbers, but the idea applies. You don’t risk the bigger percentage, you risk the smaller one. At least you do if you want to maximize your profits.

So why not make it obtainable for both – but at different paces and maybe with some small differences?

Also the percentage that matters is the percentage that spends in the gem store.

Harper.4173:

problem is, we already do boring stuff to get what we want in this game.
Tp merchant game, boring(to many)
Champ train (boring)
EOTM (boring)
Ascended mats (boring)

Why are these boring things aok, and if you dont like them you shouldnt do them(even though its less effecient), but doing challenging content to get better rewards is inherently wrong.

why is inherently wrong that challenging content gives better rewards, but not inherently wrong that unchallenging content gives better rewards?

Well, the question becomes if it’s hard enough for the top 5% and 95% can’t get that stuff, you’re pressuring 95% of the fan base.

Would you rather lose 5% of your playerbase, or 10% of 95%.

I’m not saying those are the right numbers, but the idea applies. You don’t risk the bigger percentage, you risk the smaller one. At least you do if you want to maximize your profits.
[/quote]

So why not make it obtainable for both – but at different paces and maybe with some small differences?

Also the percentage that matters is the percentage that spends in the gem store.[/quote]

HArper I agree with you totally. I don’t understand why Vayne has such a problem with their being something for more dedicated players to do.

If I am reading Vaynes posts correctly. He/She feels that everyone should be able to access every part of the game regardless of the skill level or amount of time the person has played. I see what he/she is saying but still…

Have something in the game for people who choose to dedicate more time to it.

Azathor.2845:

Have something in the game for people who choose to dedicate more time to it.

Skill > Time

It was championed in GW1. We’ve championed it in GW2.

I have nothing against challenging content.
I have nothing against casual content.
Personally, I play both.

I do have something against making the time sink the challenging component of the play. A person should not be “locked out” of content because s/he doesn’t have time to devote to it, per se. There are plenty of highly skilled players in this game that don’t spend hours and hours on every day. Challenging content is fine, if it is a skill based challenge. Not a time based challenge.

Vayne.8563:

I’m bringing up WoW because pressure is pressure and the same kind of pressure would be exerted here.

If you push people and they don’t enjoy the trip, some will leave. The more people that leave, the less people play the game, which is worse for everyone. There is an inherent risk in putting something into the game that a small percentage might like but a larger percentage might feel compelled to do.

Players are often their own worst enemy. My son wanted a legendary weapon. He ended up spending real money to get the gold to get mats to make it. He made it and stopped playing the game. He thought he knew what he wanted…he was wrong.

Experience shows that people WILL do stuff they don’t like to get a reward, but each time they do it, it takes a bit away from their enjoyment of the game, until eventually people walk away. It’s the risk you take putting those types of rewards in the game.

You say people should have freedom to choose. What if they make this change, it causes people to leave the game and there are less people playing? What if my choice was to rather have more people playing than these changes I don’t care about.

A person’s freedom ends where that freedom affects other people. This isn’t a democracy and we don’t get a vote. It’s Anet’s game. If they think enough people are interested, they’re going to make that content. If they think enough people will be disenfranchised by it, they won’t.

Nothing I say here, either way, is likely to change that.

So if that’s the case why was ascended put in?
Why is the game balanced around sPVP?
Why can’t we have split skills?

They’re looking at what small percentages are asking for too.

Another fun fact is that i explained 3 times why the pressure isn’t like wow – but you just can’t seem to get it. So I’ll stop. I hope you might find someone to explain it to you.

I also like how you don’t understand that things like Liadri are going to be a part of the game. And they’ll probably add more of them too.

How is not having that mini hurting your ability to play?

Does it remind you that others are doing better and that somehow upsets you?
Because all you seem to be doing is to ask for any possible indication that others might be doing better/ more difficult stuff to never be implemented.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Grevender.9235:

is there anything that relates harder content with it being interesting/highly replayable? (it’s an honest question, ‘cause I don’t see a logic link between the two factors)

That’s an interesting question.

In theory, harder content demands more out of the player making the best use of the battle system. Conditions, boons, stun breaks, timed dodges, interrupts, etc. If a battle system is designed around those elements, and yet they are absent from 99% of the enemy encounters, then we can safely assume that the combat system is not acchieving its full potential, which in turn it’s not as satisfying and fun as it could have been.

However, there’s such a thing as a middle ground between mindless auto-attacking zergs and niche super difficult content. I’ll even go as far as to say that I refuse to believe that challenging content can’t appeal to casuals. It all depends on either the company can or can not hit that middle ground spot.

Another user has sait it best: what this game lacks the most, is fun mechanics. Something that makes battles more creative, more engaging, more distinct from each other, even if that does not exactly translates into “high difficulty” content.

GW2 needs to make better use of its combat system. Which is not an easy to thing to acchieve, by itself, when so many of its core mechanics are broken (condition stacks, defensive stats, defiance, poor infrastructure for party supporting, spammy skills, poor balance, etc).

I think I see your point. Personally, I avoid pve like a plague, spending 99% of my time vs other players, and I avoid pve exactly because it doesn’t offer anything I consider worth my time, in particular rewards-wise.
Lesser games, which much simpler mechanics and variety compared to GW2, strangely enough manage to get the job done.
I still think difficulty and replayability have little to no relation, and your analysis matches the situation: the true problem lies in the game mechanic itself.
Thinking about easy, well established and long lasting games it’s worth mentioning dice & paper D&D (d20), Cyberpunk (d10), chess and so on.
An “harder” difficulty setting in videogames is a joke, because no matter how hard you try, the PC is always “cheating” to appear less perfect than it is to give you some chances of “winning” (the computer knows your stats, skills, combo, gear, position ecc even without the need to “see” you), while playing against other players is fair enough and unpredictable enough to stay entertaining in the long run.
So yes, I think gw2 would greatly benefit from a core mechanic overhaul.

Lynne.8416:

It’s the players that are the problem. Not anet.

This is not a good excuse, because Anet has direct control over their game’s mechanics, while players can only play with what they are given to.

If the playerbase has learned to break the game’s systems, then it’s the systems that are faulty. If the playerbase can ignore – and is rewarded for ignoring – core game mechanics, then it’s the game design that – to put it bluntly – failed at its intended purpose.

A game designer sets the right amount of options and restrictions to estabilish how the game should work. If most of the options are pratically or mathematically useless or redudant, and if most of the restrictions are ineffective, players have no blame in it, because they weren’t the ones that set them up.

[/quote]I think I see your point. Personally, I avoid pve like a plague, spending 99% of my time vs other players, and I avoid pve exactly because it doesn’t offer anything I consider worth my time, in particular rewards-wise.
Lesser games, which much simpler mechanics and variety compared to GW2, strangely enough manage to get the job done.
I still think difficulty and replayability have little to no relation, and your analysis matches the situation: the true problem lies in the game mechanic itself.
Thinking about easy, well established and long lasting games it’s worth mentioning dice & paper D&D (d20), Cyberpunk (d10), chess and so on.[/quote]

This is interesting as it pertains to rewards too. In D&D a GM would never dole out rewards the way rewards are doled out here in this game. I think some of the reward system needs to be rethought as well. Being meaningfully rewarded as a player should still matter in an MMO. Being rewarded for playing well doesn’t mean I won’t spend money in your cash shop. The reward system has become stale and formulaic. There is no surprise anymore to how we are being rewarded. It’s Black Lion Weapon skins(not rewards really, but are treated as rewards) back pieces, Cash shop costumes(again not a reward but it’s how new stuff for our characters is being doled out), Holiday weapon skins, LW skins, and rinse and repeat.

Azathor.2845:

Vayne.8563:

Azathor.2845:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

These so called “few players” can go pick up Wildstar then, or play any Korean mmo in the market today. Guild Wars 2 ever since the start has been so relaxing, I don’t want to see it go along some hardcore path to get the best items that gives a significant advantage on almost all situations.

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

Not really the point. Plenty of people have challenging lives. They don’t need MORE challenge. Getting up in the morning and working is a challenge.

Every job I’ve had in the last 30 years has been ridiculously competitive. I don’t play games to prove myself or challenge myself. I play games to relax and unwind after proving myself and challenging myself all day…or I did before I was retired anyway.

It’s okay for people to play games just to have fun.

LOl. Come on Vayne. Do you really believe this? Some people have a challenge just getting out of bed in the morning? Give me a break man….seriously Vayne, you’re reaching with this one.

I don’t see what harm it would be to have some areas where people could work together in small groups to do more challenging content and get elevated rewards. As long as this content didn’t provide game breaking gear, what’s the harm in it?

I don’t get why so many are against this line of thinking. No one is advocating across the board harder game just some further challenges within the game as it is today.

I’m not reaching at all. Do you realize the age of the average gamer is now over 30. It’s a different generation.

Why do you think raiding games are on the slide. No one has time for that stuff anymore…well not no one, but much fewer people. We’ve grown up, gotten married. I’m 52 years old, not 16. I’m past the point where I need to push my boundaries, and you know, that’s strongest when you’re younger and fades as you get older…for most people anyway.

And more women are playing the game these days. My guild is like half women. Half. The women in my guild aren’t looking for serious competition.

I’m reaching because you think kids are the people playing these games?

Give ME a break.

I’ll be 40 in April. I’m not a kid either but I still like raiding.

I don’t understand why this game cant have things for casual players and for players who want something more to do.

I don’t get what the big deal is?

Maybe you don’t realize how many people bought this game specifically to get away, not just from raiding, but the raiding mentality.

Surely you’ve seen what happens on these forums when someone brings up DPS meters, or gear scores. It’s a different game, made for a different audience.

Why can’t we have just one?

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Laosduude.1690:

snip

Yeah god forbid challenge in a videogame.

snip

And nobody is stopping you.
However certain players are trying to stop me and others from playing rewarding content. For no reason.

But there is a reason. If you put better rewards on that content, you’re pressuring people to do that content. I know myself. I’ll do most of that content. I won’t enjoy it, but I’ll do it. It will change the entire dynamic of the game.

There are plenty of games that cater to that. Why can’t you let us have just one?

snip

Also how do you know you won’t enjoy it?

And why is it that you being " forced " ( when in fact you’re just forcing yourself) to play content you don’t like is worse than me being actually forced to have terrible rewards for content that I do like?

Why should you enjoy yourself over me?

I’m not asking for vertical progression, power creep or other things.

First of all, I didn’t use the word forced, I used the word pressured. There’s a not so subtle difference between those words.

Secondly I’m not just talking about me. You think I am, but this is a well known phenomena throughout the industry. You haven’t heard about people doing boring, uninteresting things to get rewards? Because it’s in just about every MMO.

I know so many people who don’t enjoy raiding, but they want the gear. I knew people who farmed polar bear minis with no real chance of getting them for weeks on end. I’ve seen people grind out titles doing the more boring stuff imaginable even in Guild Wars 1. So yes, this is a real thing and if it happens here, it’ll be a problem.

Even if you’re not one of the people who have that problem.

Can you stop bringing up WoW and raiding? I’ve already explained that the " pressure" that gear grinding puts wouldn’t be a factor since you wouldn’t need these rewards to be viable or wanted – like was the case in wow.

I also think people have a right to decide for themselves what content they want and do not want to do. How much they want to farm. What they want to play and if they want to do content they dislike just for the rewards.

I’m sure you mean well – but taking away the choice isn’t helping anyone really. People are still subjecting themselves to what you mentioned in GW2 every day.

From dungeon runs in dungeons we’ve done hundreds of times to farming EOTM for those ranks and karma.

Don’t think it’s not happening already – the whole point is to give people in the hardcore crowd something to work for while still allowing it to be attainable by casuals.

I’m bringing up WoW because pressure is pressure and the same kind of pressure would be exerted here.

If you push people and they don’t enjoy the trip, some will leave. The more people that leave, the less people play the game, which is worse for everyone. There is an inherent risk in putting something into the game that a small percentage might like but a larger percentage might feel compelled to do.

Players are often their own worst enemy. My son wanted a legendary weapon. He ended up spending real money to get the gold to get mats to make it. He made it and stopped playing the game. He thought he knew what he wanted…he was wrong.

Experience shows that people WILL do stuff they don’t like to get a reward, but each time they do it, it takes a bit away from their enjoyment of the game, until eventually people walk away. It’s the risk you take putting those types of rewards in the game.

You say people should have freedom to choose. What if they make this change, it causes people to leave the game and there are less people playing? What if my choice was to rather have more people playing than these changes I don’t care about.

A person’s freedom ends where that freedom affects other people. This isn’t a democracy and we don’t get a vote. It’s Anet’s game. If they think enough people are interested, they’re going to make that content. If they think enough people will be disenfranchised by it, they won’t.

Nothing I say here, either way, is likely to change that.

But, people didn’t leave wow, more and more came, but wow is wow

People did leave WoW. They left WoW in droves. It’s just that Blizzard has a huge advertisement budget. I mean they did hire like Mr. T, William Shatner…other famous people over the years. People see commercials for that game…people who’d never look at a gaming site.

WoW was in the right place at the right time, but I’d wager more people have stopped playing WoW than all the people who ever played Guild Wars 1.

Harper.4173:

1) So why not make it obtainable for both – but at different paces and maybe with some small differences?

2) Also the percentage that matters is the percentage that spends in the gem store.

1) The percentage of players who prefer harder content is a subset of the entire player-base. What percentage of that subset wants quicker access to universal rewards and what percentage wants exclusive rewards?

2) Not necessarily. There have to be enough players for the people who pay to have people to play with, especially given ANet’s emphasis on larger scale, persistent world content.

Almost all players who do fotm 50 regularly agree the rewards are terrible for the amount of work and skill needed to complete a run.

Then why do they keep doing FotM50 runs if the rewards are not worth it? If people keep doing it, then clearly the rewards are sufficient, they would just like more rewards. Personally I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing them get a bit more rewards in terms of quantity, but I would be strictly opposed to them adding any sort of unique loot, or giving FotM player an easier path towards currently hard to get loot.

The issue is you don’t even know what content people “want to do” because most content is done by people for the rewards. I wouldn’t touch one world boss if they didn’t give loot and usually show up there at the last possible moment in order to tag it.

This may be true, but the fact remains that just because something is less-populated doesn’t mean that upping the reward will fix it. Some activities are under-played because the reward is weak, some are underplayed because the fun is not there, some are a combination of both. To get an accurate count, they would need to accurately survey the population to find out the relative popularity of various activities.

Do you think that now people do world bosses because they’ve magically become so taken in by them that they love and long for the experience of doing those events?

I don’t know, they’re still one of the most entertaining activities in this game either way though.

Two hours of level 50 FOTM requires a lot of coordination, skill, teamwork and concentration to pull off.
Doing that level of fractals isn’t equivalent to " Mash #1 key on the shatterer and his friends to win".

Depends on the kind of player you are. Maybe to you it’s not equivalent, in which case you should do the one you prefer. For others though it might not make much difference. The point is, just because you enjoy doing FotM, it doesn’t make you entitled to more loot than other players who don’t.

And if the rewards are the same – why not farm the easiest forever even though you hate the content?

Because it’s a game, and if you aren’t having fun then you’re doing it wrong?

If everyone has the same rewards – how do you stand out?

Why does it matter? If you want to stand out, put together an interesting armor and color scheme combination. I saw a guy the other day with this cool rainbow color scheme on his armor, it’s probably something anyone could do with a few silver in dyes, but it was far more impressive than anyone running around with a Liadri pet.

I do not care about you or your achievements.

Nobody does.

Seriously, what kind of attitude is that? The addition of challenging content wouldn’t affect you at all, yet you still don’t want it added to the game. What about other people’s enjoyment, eh?

Again, if they want to add challenging content and it won’t effect me at all, then fine, go ahead. But if they want to add challenging content and it means a whole buch of cool stuff I can’t get unless I force myself into it, then kitten that.

1)While it’s easy to get “most of the good stuff” there should be some stuff that’s only there for dedicated and skilled players. It gives people something to work towards.
Not everything should be incredibly easy to get.

But what does this accomplish other than making the players who don’t have it feel bad?

People play the trading post – which requires 0 interaction with either casual or hardcore content and make a gratuitous amount of money without ever killing a mob – but that’s perfectly ok to all the casuals.

No, it’s not, and any actions ANet can take to reign in the TPm would be much appreciated, but two wrongs would not make a right.

The moment people want to kill mobs that aren’t as easy as afk and spam #1 for a rewards that are just a bit better or exclusive – the casuals go mad.

Because calls for “harder” content typically comes packaged with this sort of elitist bullkitten that makes us not want you to have what you want because you want it.

Let me tell you another thing – there’s a very high chance that hardcore veteran players that take the game very seriously and put in 6-10 hours of gameplay a day will spend more cash in this game than you average casual who logs in now for an hour or two and may log in a few days later.

Not really. So long as both players are engaged in the game, they’re likely to spend equally. Furthermore, the player that spends 6-10 hours per day isn’t necessarily running Fractals, he might be running “faceroll” world bosses, or just leveling alts. Likewise, a player might enjoy doing fractals but only play one or two runs per week. You can’t assume that skill translates to dedication.

Challenging content.

Well, for base, I’d say mob design needs some change, since 99% of mobs use same “High HP (which is buffed up with ranks for difficulty, works against every other build, but not against berserker DPS), High dmg (per hit but attack every 3-5 seconds, so mobs rarely manage to even use their abilities before they’re dead) and very low/0 armor (which makes mobs extremely vulnerable to direct damage and die very quickly, 2/3 of game mechanics were designed for long duration combat scenarios but such scenarios are extremely rare)”…

Would be nice if Conditions had more time to deal damage, Control can affect the direction of the combat and more targets than just champions, Healing to have use on mitigating some damage and Boon/Condition Manipulations to have more use by having mobs use more boons…

Also that “Stand next to mob and use weapon skills” passive-tactic should be more closer to suicide, than what it is now…

Mobs could use more variety in their stats, attack speed and abilities, instead of focusing all that on minority of Champion and above rank boss monsters…

Give us chance to create results with every build equally, while not forcing players to play specific roles.
Give active combat mechanics more use, dodging, positioning and etc.

Never let mobs melt under berserker zergs. I’d like to be able to play Healer-Conjure-Boon Support Elementalists, or support build in general and actually kill mobs in group events…

Having only 1% of PvE, which are mainly boss monsters with mechanics that prevent meltdown, our much needed “Long duration combat scenarios”, is not good for 2/3 of game mechanics and builds…

Define difficult..Imo difficult in anets eyes is slapping on a few mill hp on a boss,let him do insta kill hits or spam aoe’s allover the place.Bosses need interesting designs and particular ways of defeating them ( i know we do have some ) which can make it difficult.A boss with a few mill hp that takes ages to take down isn’t difficult,i’ts just a drag.

Vayne.8563:

Maybe you don’t realize how many people bought this game specifically to get away, not just from raiding, but the raiding mentality.

Surely you’ve seen what happens on these forums when someone brings up DPS meters, or gear scores. It’s a different game, made for a different audience.

Why can’t we have just one?

I understand what you’re saying Vayne. Just because a game would have some harder content for ‘elite’ players if you will, doesn’t mean a bunch of jerks are going to invade the game as it is today. ‘Elite’ type players are already here anyways.

I’d like to see Anet release a 6-10 man raid every 4-6 months or so. That would shut the people up who are wanting new content and new dungeons plus it would give another avenue for people to play. Even casuals could play them too. Have a regular mode dungeon or raid and a heroic style one. Or story and exploration or whatever they want to call them.

If they did this I don’t see how it could possibly affect the more casual gamers. Most, if not all other games have casual and hardcore types existing side by side, why not this game too.

Besides the hardcore gamers are the ones who make sure the trade post is full of items. It sure isn’t the guy who plays an hour a night.

Ohoni.6057:

Because calls for “harder” content typically comes packaged with this sort of elitist bullkitten that makes us not want you to have what you want because you want it.

That’s a generalization. I could say that current dungeon farming is filled with elitism, yet dungeon farming is mindless easy. Elitism will be there regardless of content.

In the end, harder content being more rewarding comes to common sense: it’s simply fair that players who work harder deserve better rewards. Of course, “work harder” might mean different things to different players, and by no means should it imply that players should be forced to do a specific piece of content to ever get a good sense of reward.

But if the entire game is driven by instant gratification, there’s no long term satisfaction, fulfilment or sense of acchievement neither.

Harper.4173:

The issue is you don’t even know what content people “want to do” because most content is done by people for the rewards. I wouldn’t touch one world boss if they didn’t give loot and usually show up there at the last possible moment in order to tag it.

Neither would anyone else! That is why they had to add the guaranteed loot to the world bosses. Same with champions.

In the end, harder content being more rewarding comes to common sense: it’s simply fair that players who work harder deserve better rewards.

Why?

This isn’t the real world, it’s a game. Everyone’s here to have fun. The player that has fun doing casual content is no less of value than the one that has fun doing Fractal 50. This isn’t like the real world where a harder worker brings in higher profits for the company or whatever, the “harder worker” in GW2 brings in absolutely nothing, because it’s a game. There is absolutely no reason to reward them extra.

Hard content deserves a fair reward based on it taking more time and attention, but not all that much more, not so much more that the more casual players can’t keep up.

NewTrain.7549:

Also, it’s pretty clear from this thread that people who want more challenging content are not a “small minority”. Hardly 1% of the population, as you claim.

Fact is, more challenging content (that you wouldn’t be forced to do) would greatly increase the fun of the game for a large group of players and yet you’re against it because it’s not something you personally enjoy.

First we need some sort of agreement on what is and isn’t challenging content.

Then there is good challenge versus bad challenge. Good challenges would make the game more fun. Bad challenges would not. More isn’t automatically better.

Beldin.5498:

NewTrain.7549:

Fact is, more challenging content (that you wouldn’t be forced to do) would greatly increase the fun of the game for a large group of players and yet you’re against it because it’s not something you personally enjoy.

The real “fact” is that those that want “more challenging content” mostly just want stuff
that 95% of the playerbase will never have a chance to get, so that they can show off
how great they are.

And THAT is what i am against.

You’re confused on what actually constitutes a fact. Where is your proof that 95% of the people who advocate for harder content only want superior rewards. I want harder content because I find challenges to be fun. The reward can be on par with what’s currently offered and as long as it’s exciting and engaging I’ll keep playing. hence why I enjoy PvP (though not much in GW2) because of the variable challenge.

Khisanth.2948:

First we need some sort of agreement on what is and isn’t challenging content.

Then there is good challenge versus bad challenge. Good challenges would make the game more fun. Bad challenges would not. More isn’t automatically better.

All true. However none of that is a reason to take the view that “NO CHALLENGING CONTENT BECUZ PPL MIGHT GET THINGS I CAN’T GET!!!11!!”

Ohoni.6057:

In the end, harder content being more rewarding comes to common sense: it’s simply fair that players who work harder deserve better rewards.

Why?

This isn’t the real world, it’s a game. Everyone’s here to have fun. The player that has fun doing casual content is no less of value than the one that has fun doing Fractal 50. This isn’t like the real world where a harder worker brings in higher profits for the company or whatever, the “harder worker” in GW2 brings in absolutely nothing, because it’s a game. There is absolutely no reason to reward them extra.

Hard content deserves a fair reward based on it taking more time and attention, but not all that much more, not so much more that the more casual players can’t keep up.

hard content needs either greater, or different rewards, because it is harder. Its not because of profit, its because you design the rules of your game to encourage the type of play you want people to have. If you want people to get satisfaction from mastering the game, you need to design your game so that it leads you to mastery.
see
thing is, when you have a well designed game, people naturally get better at it.
At different paces, but they get better. If you actually develop a good game design with challenge, they will play, get better, and be able to do the things that was once hard for them. Therefor, all people will be able to get it.

Now to be clear, i am not saying raids= the type of challenging content they should make. They should have many different types. Raids are not really any more challenging than dungeons, they are just a different type of content. They need to mix challenge in to every thing. Solo challenge, small group challenge, jumping puzzle challenge. mining challenge.

and this doesnt mean erase easy stuff, but give players some type of room for growth, some way to get better, and see results at the things they enjoy. And yes, some sort of benefit for getting better, so they keep on getting better.

hard content needs either greater, or different rewards, because it is harder.

That’s a tautology, it means nothing.

its because you design the rules of your game to encourage the type of play you want people to have. If you want people to get satisfaction from mastering the game, you need to design your game so that it leads you to mastery.

That was Wildstar’s philosophy, they’re wrapping up now. What the better game companies do is figure out what the players want to do, and reward that, without prejudging what they should want to do.

thing is, when you have a well designed game, people naturally get better at it.
At different paces, but they get better. If you actually develop a good game design with challenge, they will play, get better, and be able to do the things that was once hard for them. Therefor, all people will be able to get it.

Right, and the way you do that is by having content where they get rewarded each time they attempt it, and they will improve through practice. If you don’t reward them unless they achieve a difficult outcome, then most player will try it a few times, then give up entirely and never improve at it.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Ohoni.6057:

Because calls for “harder” content typically comes packaged with this sort of elitist bullkitten that makes us not want you to have what you want because you want it.

That’s a generalization. I could say that current dungeon farming is filled with elitism, yet dungeon farming is mindless easy. Elitism will be there regardless of content.

In the end, harder content being more rewarding comes to common sense: it’s simply fair that players who work harder deserve better rewards. Of course, “work harder” might mean different things to different players, and by no means should it imply that players should be forced to do a specific piece of content to ever get a good sense of reward.

But if the entire game is driven by instant gratification, there’s no long term satisfaction, fulfilment or sense of acchievement neither.

By that token, people who run around soloing events that don’t get done (or didn’t, since this is rarer since mega-kitten hit) should get the best rewards. It’s noticeably harder to solo some events than it is to do “mindless easy” dungeons or zerg. This play style is probably the least rewarding in the game.

What the game needs, imo:

• Revisit rewards, and make the best rewards contingent on event completion; not champ bag or mat bag farming by up-scaling events in herds
• Increase mob damage overall by a small to moderate amount depending on mob; there should be no mob whose attacks are trivial to a glass cannon (note, that would not apply to some Champions, like the Risen Abom that downs 5 players per swing)
• Revise down-scaling to about halfway between where it is now and where it would be if you were on-level and in blues

The vision for this game was based around events. They are what should reward players.

Azathor.2845:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe you don’t realize how many people bought this game specifically to get away, not just from raiding, but the raiding mentality.

Surely you’ve seen what happens on these forums when someone brings up DPS meters, or gear scores. It’s a different game, made for a different audience.

Why can’t we have just one?

I understand what you’re saying Vayne. Just because a game would have some harder content for ‘elite’ players if you will, doesn’t mean a bunch of jerks are going to invade the game as it is today. ‘Elite’ type players are already here anyways.

I’d like to see Anet release a 6-10 man raid every 4-6 months or so. That would shut the people up who are wanting new content and new dungeons plus it would give another avenue for people to play. Even casuals could play them too. Have a regular mode dungeon or raid and a heroic style one. Or story and exploration or whatever they want to call them.

If they did this I don’t see how it could possibly affect the more casual gamers. Most, if not all other games have casual and hardcore types existing side by side, why not this game too.

Besides the hardcore gamers are the ones who make sure the trade post is full of items. It sure isn’t the guy who plays an hour a night.

There are plenty of “casual” players who play 20-30 hours a week. Casual isn’t an indication of time spent, not to me anyway. It’s a commentary on your approach to the game. I consider myself a casual player, but I have 20,000 achievement points. I’m always in game. And I’m not casual about the game itself, but I play casually. I don’t min/max. I don’t worry about being efficient. I don’t care if content is particularly challenging (though I can do challenging content).

It’s my approach to the game that’s casual…and we do put stuff in the market place.

There’s plenty of content for your style of play, Vayne. However, not everyone has the same style of play. They should be allowed to ask for content that they want. Yes, the new content may affect those who don’t want it, but the content for your style of play affects those who don’t want it too.

Revisit rewards, and make the best rewards contingent on event completion; not champ bag or mat bag farming by up-scaling events in herds

I think balance between the two is good. They should prevent events from being “failfarmable” in the sense that you allow them to fail and they repeat but you earn good loot each time, but it’s good to have small rewards as you progress towards the final outcome, and the Personal Stories where they’ve removed all enemy loot are very shallow affairs. Lootsplosions are WAY more fun than end-game chests.

Increase mob damage overall by a small to moderate amount depending on mob; there should be no mob whose attacks are trivial to a glass cannon (note, that would not apply to some Champions, like the Risen Abom that downs 5 players per swing)

I have played some glass cannon builds, and most enemies worth caring about are worth caring about. I don’t think mob damage needs to be raised, although they do need to make it so that in large zerg situations mobs can hit multiple characters easier. That’s the key difficulty problem, that if a mob is soloing one player, it can deal plenty of damage, but if it’s dealing with three dozen players, maybe it only damages a few at a time and they can recover before it can get back to finish them off. They just need to design them to better account for having tons of players, without dealing way too much to any one of them, but not too little either.

Revise down-scaling to about halfway between where it is now and where it would be if you were on-level and in blues

This depends greatly from encounter to encounter, but yeah, probably a good idea in some places.

There’s plenty of content for your style of play, Vayne. However, not everyone has the same style of play. They should be allowed to ask for content that they want. Yes, the new content may affect those who don’t want it, but the content for your style of play affects those who don’t want it too.

This is true, but also keep in mind that not all games have to be for all players. GW2 is not perfect, and basic improvements can be made, but it has a definite “flavor” to it, and that flavor is casual. Some “hardcore” players feel that the game is not doing enough to cater to them, and they’re right, and that’s a good thing, because this is not a hardcore game. If you consider yourself a hardcore gamer and still enjoy the game, then that’s great, just don’t expect the game to change for you at the expense of its core players.

For many people there is only challenging content left that keeps them interested in the game.
I have 10k AP and couldn’t care more if I get a single point more….AP isnt content.
I am casual but I also need something interesting to do.
Theme park style MMO’s need injections of content to keep the playerbase interested. For many LS isnt enough and as players crave a challenge, which brings most to the idea of “Elite” style dungeons.
I truly wish GW2 had more challenging content because I rarely ever log in anymore and the game has so much potential.

I really want more difficult dungeons and content BUT I also want it be completed in a short amount of time. I love the technical fights of the Aetherblade dungeon path but I don’t go near the dungeon because it takes to kitten long.

In my ideal world all new GW2 dungeons would be designed like fractals. 10-20 minute with a few events/bosses each.

DaShi.1368:

There’s plenty of content for your style of play, Vayne. However, not everyone has the same style of play. They should be allowed to ask for content that they want. Yes, the new content may affect those who don’t want it, but the content for your style of play affects those who don’t want it too.

What I’m saying is the rewards may well affect my style of play, or how I play the game. If there’s enough rewards that I can’t get in a game, I’ll eventually feel that game isn’t for me. Surely I’m not alone in that, and surely pointing that out isn’t telling Anet not to make harder content. I’m just asking them to be careful with how rewards are offered.

I’m pretty sure TA Aetherblade path has proved that hard content itself is not enough. It has to have better rewards that aren’t RNG. And that becomes an issue for the game itself, if enough of those things are around that the majority of players can’t get or will feel forced to try to get.

Imagine if they hid a really cool awesome mini quaggan for some reason, in TA Aetherblade path.

At the very least, those rewards from that harder content should be sellable, which means that it won’t be the badge that many hard core players want their characters to have (like Fractal skins are).

Iason Evan.3806:

This is interesting as it pertains to rewards too. In D&D a GM would never dole out rewards the way rewards are doled out here in this game. I think some of the reward system needs to be rethought as well. Being meaningfully rewarded as a player should still matter in an MMO. Being rewarded for playing well doesn’t mean I won’t spend money in your cash shop. The reward system has become stale and formulaic. There is no surprise anymore to how we are being rewarded. It’s Black Lion Weapon skins(not rewards really, but are treated as rewards) back pieces, Cash shop costumes(again not a reward but it’s how new stuff for our characters is being doled out), Holiday weapon skins, LW skins, and rinse and repeat.

you got a good point. A rewarding experience, RPG wise, is another missing thing. The DM Guide was very accurate in describing how rewards had to be calibrated on the content, so that somehow influenced my way of seeing the same mechanic in videogames; in gw2 there is a commendable intent of pleasing everyone, giving everyone everything, which while being positive on paper doesn’t deliver, making efforts/benefits ratio go to hell and completely defeating the very purpose of playing more complex/risky content to begin with.

Well, you can get clockheart from aetherblade, but can’t sell him. I wish there was a better way to get the skins, like that token book from the vendor, plus something else. I think putting unique rewards earned in specialty pve events/encounter/dungeons/yaddayadda into pvp reward tracks is a decent alternative for those not interested in the pve content.

Vayne.8563:

DaShi.1368:

There’s plenty of content for your style of play, Vayne. However, not everyone has the same style of play. They should be allowed to ask for content that they want. Yes, the new content may affect those who don’t want it, but the content for your style of play affects those who don’t want it too.

What I’m saying is the rewards may well affect my style of play, or how I play the game. If there’s enough rewards that I can’t get in a game, I’ll eventually feel that game isn’t for me. Surely I’m not alone in that, and surely pointing that out isn’t telling Anet not to make harder content. I’m just asking them to be careful with how rewards are offered.

I’m pretty sure TA Aetherblade path has proved that hard content itself is not enough. It has to have better rewards that aren’t RNG. And that becomes an issue for the game itself, if enough of those things are around that the majority of players can’t get or will feel forced to try to get.

Imagine if they hid a really cool awesome mini quaggan for some reason, in TA Aetherblade path.

At the very least, those rewards from that harder content should be sellable, which means that it won’t be the badge that many hard core players want their characters to have (like Fractal skins are).

If you could please – explain to me why other people having stuff you can’t get makes you want to quit the game instead of motivating you to work towards getting that stuff if you want it so much.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

DaShi.1368:

There’s plenty of content for your style of play, Vayne. However, not everyone has the same style of play. They should be allowed to ask for content that they want. Yes, the new content may affect those who don’t want it, but the content for your style of play affects those who don’t want it too.

What I’m saying is the rewards may well affect my style of play, or how I play the game. If there’s enough rewards that I can’t get in a game, I’ll eventually feel that game isn’t for me. Surely I’m not alone in that, and surely pointing that out isn’t telling Anet not to make harder content. I’m just asking them to be careful with how rewards are offered.

I’m pretty sure TA Aetherblade path has proved that hard content itself is not enough. It has to have better rewards that aren’t RNG. And that becomes an issue for the game itself, if enough of those things are around that the majority of players can’t get or will feel forced to try to get.

Imagine if they hid a really cool awesome mini quaggan for some reason, in TA Aetherblade path.

At the very least, those rewards from that harder content should be sellable, which means that it won’t be the badge that many hard core players want their characters to have (like Fractal skins are).

If you could please – explain to me why other people having stuff you can’t get makes you want to quit the game instead of motivating you to work towards getting that stuff if you want it so much.

I’m not sure what the question is here. Let’s take a baby quaggan minipet. A special one with a purple parasol. Maybe there’s new challenging content and that’s the reward. A whole lot of people are going to want that reward that maybe don’t enjoy or even can never do that content.

Nor is one reward the problem. One reward doesn’t affect much of anyone. Most people in this game will never have a Liadri mini, or a clockheart mini and that’s okay. Because it’s relatively rare.

But now you have the issue of people who want the clockheart mini, but they maybe really dont’ like to group period. It ruins their game. They have to run that dungeon a number of times to get all those achievements. It’s a lot of work, but they really want it.

The problem is, if I really want something but don’t enjoy that content, I’m conflicted. Do I do something I don’t enjoy for hours on end to get something I really want? Okay not this time. What if it was more common. What if more and more of the stuff I wanted was locked behind stuff I don’t enjoy.

You’re saying get better. I don’t need to get better. I’m quite fine as I am. I can beat any dungeon in the game, but I don’t enjoy running dungeons. Particularly not most of these dungeons.

You use the word motivating me to “work” towards those rewards. I didn’t work towards Liadri, because it wasn’t fun for me. Period. Getting to her was okay. Getting some of the other achievements, no so okay. I did it for the meta, because I wanted to get the meta. I did NOT enjoy the content.

So you’re saying what’s wrong with offering me rewards I want and content I don’t enjoy?

I don’t even understand what you’re not understanding.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

DaShi.1368:

There’s plenty of content for your style of play, Vayne. However, not everyone has the same style of play. They should be allowed to ask for content that they want. Yes, the new content may affect those who don’t want it, but the content for your style of play affects those who don’t want it too.

What I’m saying is the rewards may well affect my style of play, or how I play the game. If there’s enough rewards that I can’t get in a game, I’ll eventually feel that game isn’t for me. Surely I’m not alone in that, and surely pointing that out isn’t telling Anet not to make harder content. I’m just asking them to be careful with how rewards are offered.

I’m pretty sure TA Aetherblade path has proved that hard content itself is not enough. It has to have better rewards that aren’t RNG. And that becomes an issue for the game itself, if enough of those things are around that the majority of players can’t get or will feel forced to try to get.

Imagine if they hid a really cool awesome mini quaggan for some reason, in TA Aetherblade path.

At the very least, those rewards from that harder content should be sellable, which means that it won’t be the badge that many hard core players want their characters to have (like Fractal skins are).

If you could please – explain to me why other people having stuff you can’t get makes you want to quit the game instead of motivating you to work towards getting that stuff if you want it so much.

I quit WoW becouse it forced me to play raids and grind for the best gear to stand a chance in PvP (Long time ago).
I quit LotrO becouse it forced me to play raids and grind for the best gear to stand a chance in PvP to get better PvP armor. Also it forced me to craft alot in an enoyingly booring craft system.
These games for me just ended as work work work… Sure there was alot of stuff to do but it was pretty booring and repetative.

I play games becouse I want to have fun and relax, not to feel the need to keep up and do booring stuff becouse I need it to do some fun stuff. GW2 have had their bad stuff and it aint perfect but I am still hooked.
And as I said before to stay on topic, what I realy miss is a Easy/Normal/Hard for atleast dungeons.

I’m pretty sure TA Aetherblade path has proved that hard content itself is not enough. It has to have better rewards that aren’t RNG. And that becomes an issue for the game itself, if enough of those things are around that the majority of players can’t get or will feel forced to try to get.

And plus if “hard” content has really good rewards then people will just famr them and become way more wealthy than other players. I mean most dungeons are not really “hard,” they just require you to know what to do. Once you have them down, you can clear them 100% of the time in a fraction of the time it takes to clear it blind, so if they balance rewards based on long completion times and a reasonable chance of failure, then players capable of clearing it easily will just start racking in way more reward for their time than other activities offer.

The problem is, if I really want something but don’t enjoy that content, I’m conflicted. Do I do something I don’t enjoy for hours on end to get something I really want? Okay not this time. What if it was more common. What if more and more of the stuff I wanted was locked behind stuff I don’t enjoy

Exactly. Rewards might get me to choose one activity I enjoy over another that I enjoy, but if the choice is between something I enjoy and something I hate, I won’t do the thing I hate even if the reward is good, and I’ll just resent the game for not providing a path to the reward I want that does not involve an activity I don’t hate.

One of my current goals is to complete the Ambrite collection. I already had several of them, and while I never would have completed the collection without motivation, since I don’t care at all about most of the weapons, I enjoy playing Drytop, so pursuing the goal is entertaining to me. The Spoon thing, on the other hand, I’ve given up on completely, since while most of the spoons would be easy enough to acquire, some of them require running Fractals for who knows how long, and I’ve already had plenty of Fractals to last me a lifetime (until they allow you to run one fractal at a time, at least).

Vayne.8563:

If you could please – explain to me why other people having stuff you can’t get makes you want to quit the game instead of motivating you to work towards getting that stuff if you want it so much.

I’m not sure what the question is here. Let’s take a baby quaggan minipet. A special one with a purple parasol. Maybe there’s new challenging content and that’s the reward. A whole lot of people are going to want that reward that maybe don’t enjoy or even can never do that content.

Nor is one reward the problem. One reward doesn’t affect much of anyone. Most people in this game will never have a Liadri mini, or a clockheart mini and that’s okay. Because it’s relatively rare.

But now you have the issue of people who want the clockheart mini, but they maybe really dont’ like to group period. It ruins their game. They have to run that dungeon a number of times to get all those achievements. It’s a lot of work, but they really want it.

The problem is, if I really want something but don’t enjoy that content, I’m conflicted. Do I do something I don’t enjoy for hours on end to get something I really want? Okay not this time. What if it was more common. What if more and more of the stuff I wanted was locked behind stuff I don’t enjoy.

You’re saying get better. I don’t need to get better. I’m quite fine as I am. I can beat any dungeon in the game, but I don’t enjoy running dungeons. Particularly not most of these dungeons.

You use the word motivating me to “work” towards those rewards. I didn’t work towards Liadri, because it wasn’t fun for me. Period. Getting to her was okay. Getting some of the other achievements, no so okay. I did it for the meta, because I wanted to get the meta. I did NOT enjoy the content.

So you’re saying what’s wrong with offering me rewards I want and content I don’t enjoy?

I don’t even understand what you’re not understanding.[/quote]

I’m not understanding why you feel “pressured”.

Maybe it’s because we’re very different individuals but where I grew up it went like this:

If you want something and it’s hard to get you’ll have to work for it or you won’t have it.

I don’t understand why you feel pressured because you want it but still don’t accept that if you do want it you have to do whatever it takes to get it. Maybe it’s content you don’t like. So what?

I don’t see why everything should be handed out through means that you do like.
Some of the content in the game is given as rewards for stuff I don’t like but I don’t complain about it because it’s simple :

If I want it bad enough the fact that I don’t enjoy the content I have to do to get it won’t matter.
If I don’t – I won’t get it.

Also I can understand the gear grind people – in the days of WoW you needed to grind to even consider yourself viable.
I get what EdgarMTanaka is saying – he needed to raid to be viable in PvP. He needed to – in order to play the game he had to have that gear or he’d get stomped. Or not even invited.

Do you need a mini to play the game? Do you need that skin in order to complete whatever it is you need to complete?

That’s the difference you’re not seeing.

@Ohoni

And plus if “hard” content has really good rewards then people will just famr them and become way more wealthy than other players

News flash – this is a thing in the game already. People playing the TP are insanely rich. I’m talking tens of thousands of gold. And they’re not even navigating content – just buy orders.

People are already racking up tons of rewards mashing their #1 key farming Coil in Frostgorge.

Also – speaking of resenting the game – I resent the game because players who are less skilled can get just about everything I can in game with almost no effort put in their build, their play style or anything else.

Also – Why can’t you run one fractal at a time exactly?
I seem to recall each one has a chest at the end – so what’s the problem here?

Harper.4173:

Also – speaking of resenting the game – I resent the game because players who are less skilled can get just about everything I can in game with almost no effort put in their build, their play style or anything else.

Umm… It is a game, it is not a competition. In my PvP experience I find it entertaining to figure out a good build to fight the easy to play builds like Ham/bow or MM’s
I usually don’t brag but I would say that my skill usually overcomes those with no skill but easy to win builds. And talking PvE then, sure I don’t like the “Zerk is the only thing” stuff, so I don’t play with people with that mindset and I play how I like. I don’t care if someone can solo Arah but I can’t. What I don’t like is that needed content is locked behind too hard content for me, luckely it is not like that in GW2 but I don’t want that iether.

So what I say is that I don’t mind hard content but it shouldn’t reward you with something you can’t get without playing hard content but it should indeed be rewarded better than easy or normal content. Like more loot, more champion loot, higher special drop rate, and more tokens and so on.

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

DaShi.1368:

There’s plenty of content for your style of play, Vayne. However, not everyone has the same style of play. They should be allowed to ask for content that they want. Yes, the new content may affect those who don’t want it, but the content for your style of play affects those who don’t want it too.

What I’m saying is the rewards may well affect my style of play, or how I play the game. If there’s enough rewards that I can’t get in a game, I’ll eventually feel that game isn’t for me. Surely I’m not alone in that, and surely pointing that out isn’t telling Anet not to make harder content. I’m just asking them to be careful with how rewards are offered.

I’m pretty sure TA Aetherblade path has proved that hard content itself is not enough. It has to have better rewards that aren’t RNG. And that becomes an issue for the game itself, if enough of those things are around that the majority of players can’t get or will feel forced to try to get.

Imagine if they hid a really cool awesome mini quaggan for some reason, in TA Aetherblade path.

At the very least, those rewards from that harder content should be sellable, which means that it won’t be the badge that many hard core players want their characters to have (like Fractal skins are).

If you could please – explain to me why other people having stuff you can’t get makes you want to quit the game instead of motivating you to work towards getting that stuff if you want it so much.

I’m not sure what the question is here. Let’s take a baby quaggan minipet. A special one with a purple parasol. Maybe there’s new challenging content and that’s the reward. A whole lot of people are going to want that reward that maybe don’t enjoy or even can never do that content.

Nor is one reward the problem. One reward doesn’t affect much of anyone. Most people in this game will never have a Liadri mini, or a clockheart mini and that’s okay. Because it’s relatively rare.

But now you have the issue of people who want the clockheart mini, but they maybe really dont’ like to group period. It ruins their game. They have to run that dungeon a number of times to get all those achievements. It’s a lot of work, but they really want it.

The problem is, if I really want something but don’t enjoy that content, I’m conflicted. Do I do something I don’t enjoy for hours on end to get something I really want? Okay not this time. What if it was more common. What if more and more of the stuff I wanted was locked behind stuff I don’t enjoy.

You’re saying get better. I don’t need to get better. I’m quite fine as I am. I can beat any dungeon in the game, but I don’t enjoy running dungeons. Particularly not most of these dungeons.

You use the word motivating me to “work” towards those rewards. I didn’t work towards Liadri, because it wasn’t fun for me. Period. Getting to her was okay. Getting some of the other achievements, no so okay. I did it for the meta, because I wanted to get the meta. I did NOT enjoy the content.

So you’re saying what’s wrong with offering me rewards I want and content I don’t enjoy?

I don’t even understand what you’re not understanding.

is it unfair that to get an NBA ring, you have to win an NBA championship? Is it unfair that pulitzers are given only to top writers? Unfair that only police officers can drive police cars?

I see how everything being only obtainable by things you dont like would suck, but no one is saying that. I definately believe this is not a black and white thing, it has to be balanced. They shouldnt put all new gear behind super hard content. But they should be ok putting SOME non essential gears in specific places.

anyhow, im not married to having super uniques for show off purposes, my main beef with selling everything, is the game is already too driven by grinding gold. Somethings should not be about how much gold per hour you can grind.

however having the items salable isnt that bad.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

If you could please – explain to me why other people having stuff you can’t get makes you want to quit the game instead of motivating you to work towards getting that stuff if you want it so much.

I’m not sure what the question is here. Let’s take a baby quaggan minipet. A special one with a purple parasol. Maybe there’s new challenging content and that’s the reward. A whole lot of people are going to want that reward that maybe don’t enjoy or even can never do that content.

Nor is one reward the problem. One reward doesn’t affect much of anyone. Most people in this game will never have a Liadri mini, or a clockheart mini and that’s okay. Because it’s relatively rare.

But now you have the issue of people who want the clockheart mini, but they maybe really dont’ like to group period. It ruins their game. They have to run that dungeon a number of times to get all those achievements. It’s a lot of work, but they really want it.

The problem is, if I really want something but don’t enjoy that content, I’m conflicted. Do I do something I don’t enjoy for hours on end to get something I really want? Okay not this time. What if it was more common. What if more and more of the stuff I wanted was locked behind stuff I don’t enjoy.

You’re saying get better. I don’t need to get better. I’m quite fine as I am. I can beat any dungeon in the game, but I don’t enjoy running dungeons. Particularly not most of these dungeons.

You use the word motivating me to “work” towards those rewards. I didn’t work towards Liadri, because it wasn’t fun for me. Period. Getting to her was okay. Getting some of the other achievements, no so okay. I did it for the meta, because I wanted to get the meta. I did NOT enjoy the content.

So you’re saying what’s wrong with offering me rewards I want and content I don’t enjoy?

I don’t even understand what you’re not understanding.

I’m not understanding why you feel “pressured”.

Maybe it’s because we’re very different individuals but where I grew up it went like this:

If you want something and it’s hard to get you’ll have to work for it or you won’t have it.

I don’t understand why you feel pressured because you want it but still don’t accept that if you do want it you have to do whatever it takes to get it. Maybe it’s content you don’t like. So what?

I don’t see why everything should be handed out through means that you do like.
Some of the content in the game is given as rewards for stuff I don’t like but I don’t complain about it because it’s simple :

If I want it bad enough the fact that I don’t enjoy the content I have to do to get it won’t matter.
If I don’t – I won’t get it.

Also I can understand the gear grind people – in the days of WoW you needed to grind to even consider yourself viable.
I get what EdgarMTanaka is saying – he needed to raid to be viable in PvP. He needed to – in order to play the game he had to have that gear or he’d get stomped. Or not even invited.

Do you need a mini to play the game? Do you need that skin in order to complete whatever it is you need to complete?

That’s the difference you’re not seeing.

@Ohoni

And plus if “hard” content has really good rewards then people will just famr them and become way more wealthy than other players

News flash – this is a thing in the game already. People playing the TP are insanely rich. I’m talking tens of thousands of gold. And they’re not even navigating content – just buy orders.

People are already racking up tons of rewards mashing their #1 key farming Coil in Frostgorge.

Also – speaking of resenting the game – I resent the game because players who are less skilled can get just about everything I can in game with almost no effort put in their build, their play style or anything else.

Also – Why can’t you run one fractal at a time exactly?
I seem to recall each one has a chest at the end – so what’s the problem here?

[/quote]

It doesn’t really matter if you need a minipet to play the game. You don’t need a hotdog to enjoy a ball game but I enjoy ball games more when I buy a hot dog. It’s part of my experience.

People keeping using the word need. It’s not about need. It’s about fun. So if you happen to be a minipet collector and that is your end game, it is for some, you’ll need that mini to complete your collection.

If I see a bunch of stuff I want and can never get, why should I keep playing the game? That’s how a lot of people DO see these games (even if I don’t personally).

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

DaShi.1368:

There’s plenty of content for your style of play, Vayne. However, not everyone has the same style of play. They should be allowed to ask for content that they want. Yes, the new content may affect those who don’t want it, but the content for your style of play affects those who don’t want it too.

What I’m saying is the rewards may well affect my style of play, or how I play the game. If there’s enough rewards that I can’t get in a game, I’ll eventually feel that game isn’t for me. Surely I’m not alone in that, and surely pointing that out isn’t telling Anet not to make harder content. I’m just asking them to be careful with how rewards are offered.

I’m pretty sure TA Aetherblade path has proved that hard content itself is not enough. It has to have better rewards that aren’t RNG. And that becomes an issue for the game itself, if enough of those things are around that the majority of players can’t get or will feel forced to try to get.

Imagine if they hid a really cool awesome mini quaggan for some reason, in TA Aetherblade path.

At the very least, those rewards from that harder content should be sellable, which means that it won’t be the badge that many hard core players want their characters to have (like Fractal skins are).

If you could please – explain to me why other people having stuff you can’t get makes you want to quit the game instead of motivating you to work towards getting that stuff if you want it so much.

I’m not sure what the question is here. Let’s take a baby quaggan minipet. A special one with a purple parasol. Maybe there’s new challenging content and that’s the reward. A whole lot of people are going to want that reward that maybe don’t enjoy or even can never do that content.

Nor is one reward the problem. One reward doesn’t affect much of anyone. Most people in this game will never have a Liadri mini, or a clockheart mini and that’s okay. Because it’s relatively rare.

But now you have the issue of people who want the clockheart mini, but they maybe really dont’ like to group period. It ruins their game. They have to run that dungeon a number of times to get all those achievements. It’s a lot of work, but they really want it.

The problem is, if I really want something but don’t enjoy that content, I’m conflicted. Do I do something I don’t enjoy for hours on end to get something I really want? Okay not this time. What if it was more common. What if more and more of the stuff I wanted was locked behind stuff I don’t enjoy.

You’re saying get better. I don’t need to get better. I’m quite fine as I am. I can beat any dungeon in the game, but I don’t enjoy running dungeons. Particularly not most of these dungeons.

You use the word motivating me to “work” towards those rewards. I didn’t work towards Liadri, because it wasn’t fun for me. Period. Getting to her was okay. Getting some of the other achievements, no so okay. I did it for the meta, because I wanted to get the meta. I did NOT enjoy the content.

So you’re saying what’s wrong with offering me rewards I want and content I don’t enjoy?

I don’t even understand what you’re not understanding.

is it unfair that to get an NBA ring, you have to win an NBA championship? Is it unfair that pulitzers are given only to top writers? Unfair that only police officers can drive police cars?

I see how everything being only obtainable by things you dont like would suck, but no one is saying that. I definately believe this is not a black and white thing, it has to be balanced. They shouldnt put all new gear behind super hard content. But they should be ok putting SOME non essential gears in specific places.

anyhow, im not married to having super uniques for show off purposes, my main beef with selling everything, is the game is already too driven by grinding gold. Somethings should not be about how much gold per hour you can grind.

however having the items salable isnt that bad.

It’s not unfair that if you get into an NBA ring to play a championship, you don’t get a ring if you don’t win one. But presumably you enter the NBA playoff knowing that’s the case.

People play this game for all sorts of reasons. People play professional basketball to win. I don’t really see the comparison.

It would be more like if we were having a casual game of basketball, throwing the ball around with a couple of friends and suddenly someone says, okay, person who scores the most points gets $1000. It changes the game. Whether you need the thousand bucks or not, it changes it.

[quote=4455136;Ohoni.6057:]

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Harper.4173:

Also – speaking of resenting the game – I resent the game because players who are less skilled can get just about everything I can in game with almost no effort put in their build, their play style or anything else.

Umm… It is a game, it is not a competition. In my PvP experience I find it entertaining to figure out a good build to fight the easy to play builds like Ham/bow or MM’s
I usually don’t brag but I would say that my skill usually overcomes those with no skill but easy to win builds. And talking PvE then, sure I don’t like the “Zerk is the only thing” stuff, so I don’t play with people with that mindset and I play how I like. I don’t care if someone can solo Arah but I can’t. What I don’t like is that needed content is locked behind too hard content for me, luckely it is not like that in GW2 but I don’t want that iether.

So what I say is that I don’t mind hard content but it shouldn’t reward you with something you can’t get without playing hard content but it should indeed be rewarded better than easy or normal content. Like more loot, more champion loot, higher special drop rate, and more tokens and so on.

But you already have that in game. And it’s not with skin or unique rewards- but with things that give vertical progression.

Take high-level fractals – there’s a higher chance to get ascended armor drops there than anywhere else in the game.

Same with Teq. These are harder than average parts of the game with “better rewards” not just rarer. Not just skins. Better.

Yet I don’t see anyone complaining.

The moment people ask for skins that are harder to get – people go mad.

Harper.4173:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Harper.4173:

Also – speaking of resenting the game – I resent the game because players who are less skilled can get just about everything I can in game with almost no effort put in their build, their play style or anything else.

Umm… It is a game, it is not a competition. In my PvP experience I find it entertaining to figure out a good build to fight the easy to play builds like Ham/bow or MM’s
I usually don’t brag but I would say that my skill usually overcomes those with no skill but easy to win builds. And talking PvE then, sure I don’t like the “Zerk is the only thing” stuff, so I don’t play with people with that mindset and I play how I like. I don’t care if someone can solo Arah but I can’t. What I don’t like is that needed content is locked behind too hard content for me, luckely it is not like that in GW2 but I don’t want that iether.

So what I say is that I don’t mind hard content but it shouldn’t reward you with something you can’t get without playing hard content but it should indeed be rewarded better than easy or normal content. Like more loot, more champion loot, higher special drop rate, and more tokens and so on.

But you already have that in game. And it’s not with skin or unique rewards- but with things that give vertical progression.

Take high-level fractals – there’s a higher chance to get ascended armor drops there than anywhere else in the game.

Same with Teq. These are harder than average parts of the game with “better rewards” not just rarer. Not just skins. Better.

Yet I don’t see anyone complaining.

The moment people ask for skins that are harder to get – people go mad.

You can craft ascended armor and weapons without ever doing a fractal or tequatl. In fact, it’s preferable to craft that stuff, because you can’t control what stats drop. Sort of a red herring if you ask me.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t really matter if you need a minipet to play the game. You don’t need a hotdog to enjoy a ball game but I enjoy ball games more when I buy a hot dog. It’s part of my experience.
People keeping using the word need. It’s not about need. It’s about fun. So if you happen to be a minipet collector and that is your end game, it is for some, you’ll need that mini to complete your collection.
If I see a bunch of stuff I want and can never get, why should I keep playing the game? That’s how a lot of people DO see these games (even if I don’t personally).

Because the “never” in never get is not really never. You have to want it bad enough and you’ll get it.

If you’re a mini collector and minis are your end-game – then you’ll work and get your mini. Simple.

Work for something = have it.
Don’t work for something = don’t have it.

And personally I don’t really remember GW2 being advertised as " everyone will have access to all the skins and all the rewards regardless of how good or bad they’re doing in game".

I remember them saying people will have the best statistical gear – never that everyone should or could have access to all the “fluff” prestige items.

You sure you did your research right on GW2?

Vayne.8563:

Harper.4173:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Harper.4173:

Also – speaking of resenting the game – I resent the game because players who are less skilled can get just about everything I can in game with almost no effort put in their build, their play style or anything else.

Umm… It is a game, it is not a competition. In my PvP experience I find it entertaining to figure out a good build to fight the easy to play builds like Ham/bow or MM’s
I usually don’t brag but I would say that my skill usually overcomes those with no skill but easy to win builds. And talking PvE then, sure I don’t like the “Zerk is the only thing” stuff, so I don’t play with people with that mindset and I play how I like. I don’t care if someone can solo Arah but I can’t. What I don’t like is that needed content is locked behind too hard content for me, luckely it is not like that in GW2 but I don’t want that iether.

So what I say is that I don’t mind hard content but it shouldn’t reward you with something you can’t get without playing hard content but it should indeed be rewarded better than easy or normal content. Like more loot, more champion loot, higher special drop rate, and more tokens and so on.

But you already have that in game. And it’s not with skin or unique rewards- but with things that give vertical progression.

Take high-level fractals – there’s a higher chance to get ascended armor drops there than anywhere else in the game.

Same with Teq. These are harder than average parts of the game with “better rewards” not just rarer. Not just skins. Better.

Yet I don’t see anyone complaining.

The moment people ask for skins that are harder to get – people go mad.

You can craft ascended armor and weapons without ever doing a fractal or tequatl. In fact, it’s preferable to craft that stuff, because you can’t control what stats drop. Sort of a red herring if you ask me.

So alternative means are possible for obtaining a prestige item – for the hardcore you have some form of content.
For casuals you could have various methods of obtaining it fairly easily ( skill/time/resource wise) but over a very long period of time ( say half a year or more).

If they really want it – they’ll stick to it – do the small bit they have to do every day and eventually get it.

Harper.4173:

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t really matter if you need a minipet to play the game. You don’t need a hotdog to enjoy a ball game but I enjoy ball games more when I buy a hot dog. It’s part of my experience.
People keeping using the word need. It’s not about need. It’s about fun. So if you happen to be a minipet collector and that is your end game, it is for some, you’ll need that mini to complete your collection.
If I see a bunch of stuff I want and can never get, why should I keep playing the game? That’s how a lot of people DO see these games (even if I don’t personally).

Because the “never” in never get is not really never. You have to want it bad enough and you’ll get it.

If you’re a mini collector and minis are your end-game – then you’ll work and get your mini. Simple.

Work for something = have it.
Don’t work for something = don’t have it.

And personally I don’t really remember GW2 being advertised as " everyone will have access to all the skins and all the rewards regardless of how good or bad they’re doing in game".

I remember them saying people will have the best statistical gear – never that everyone should or could have access to all the “fluff” prestige items.

You sure you did your research right on GW2?

Or you leave the game and people will. You may not care how many people are driven from the game, but I’m sure Anet probably does.

I have no desire to play content I don’t find fun for a reward. If there’s too much of it, too many things I can’t get, I’ll leave the game…because I play games to have fun. The stuff isn’t fun. It’s nice to have but it’s not fun.

But if I can’t have fun in the pursuit of stuff…why even bother playing?

Vayne.8563:

It’s not unfair that if you get into an NBA ring to play a championship, you don’t get a ring if you don’t win one. But presumably you enter the NBA playoff knowing that’s the case.

People play this game for all sorts of reasons. People play professional basketball to win. I don’t really see the comparison.

It would be more like if we were having a casual game of basketball, throwing the ball around with a couple of friends and suddenly someone says, okay, person who scores the most points gets $1000. It changes the game. Whether you need the thousand bucks or not, it changes it.

Of course you have to balance and control what you reward. But if you rewarded 1000 dollars for winning the game, you would not have changed it in a bad way.

This is what i mean by good game design. Placing reward in the proper places, in the proper way, can enhance game play.
The other factor is that these things of course should be opt in things. Every person shouldnt have to always play for money. But the fact that 3 on 3 tournaments/prizes/etc, and the NBA exists does not diminish the sport of basketball. Its an option and a possibility, IF you want to work harder and compete, you can get a greater reward.

The problem is you are saying playing basketball, and walking around a basketball court with a ball in your hand doing whatever you want should give the same rewards. If that was a game you made up, it would be a poorly designed game.

In fact is it is worse than that, to continue the analogy, some random acts in the basketball game give you points while other dont.
imagine if;
for dribbling for over 2 minutes, you get 10 extra points
for scoring while an opponent defends you get 1 point
you can only score up to 5 points from baskets every 10 minutes
passing the ball reduces your next points earned by -1 points
paying vayne gives you 1 point per 100 dollars.

what i am getting at, is it really important to appropriately reward actions in games, otherwise you create degenerative gameplay. Right now the game gives the most points for things which dont really enhance the game. It would in fact be better for the game, for say a hard dynamic event chain to reward more than an easy one. By the exact same ideaology, a hard dungeon rewarding more than an easy one would be a better design.

yes people play the game for many different reasons, and you should reward them differently, as well as reward them the better they are at it. Then money will actually be a method for exchanging value, but thats a whole different topic.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Challenging content and content that the entire player base can complete are not mutually exclusive. Why are we talking about percentages able to complete here? Do you have a mouse, a keyboard, a working brain and some hands or feet? If so, you can complete any content this game has to offer. Maybe it’ll take longer for some, but nevertheless, hard content doesn’t equal exclusive content.

The big question is here however : WHAT is a challenge ?

Now the l33t players solo Lupicus all the time with ease .. that means for a group of 5
they need at least 5 Lupicus instead .. and even that is maybe still boring easy for them
so they need maybe 10 to have a small challenge.

And other still have a problem with 1 as a group of 5 .. so you think those player will
all easyily take 5 or 10 Lupicus at once down ?

Also should the l33t players get 1,5 gold for each Lupi .. so they get 15g maybe every
15 minutes .. 60g per hour ?

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not unfair that if you get into an NBA ring to play a championship, you don’t get a ring if you don’t win one. But presumably you enter the NBA playoff knowing that’s the case.

People play this game for all sorts of reasons. People play professional basketball to win. I don’t really see the comparison.

It would be more like if we were having a casual game of basketball, throwing the ball around with a couple of friends and suddenly someone says, okay, person who scores the most points gets $1000. It changes the game. Whether you need the thousand bucks or not, it changes it.

Of course you have to balance and control what you reward. But if you rewarded 1000 dollars for winning the game, you would not have changed it in a bad way.

This is what i mean by good game design. Placing reward in the proper places, in the proper way, can enhance game play.
The other factor is that these things of course should be opt in things. Every person shouldnt have to always play for money. But the fact that 3 on 3 tournaments/prizes/etc, and the NBA exists does not diminish the sport of basketball. Its an option and a possibility, IF you want to work harder and compete, you can get a greater reward.

The problem is you are saying playing basketball, and walking around a basketball court with a ball in your hand doing whatever you want should give the same rewards. If that was a game you made up, it would be a poorly designed game.

In fact is it is worse than that, to continue the analogy, some random acts in the basketball game give you points while other dont.
imagine if;
for dribbling for over 2 minutes, you get 10 extra points
for scoring while an opponent defends you get 1 point
you can only score up to 5 points from baskets every 10 minutes
passing the ball reduces your next points earned by -1 points
paying vayne gives you 1 point per 100 dollars.

what i am getting at, is it really important to appropriately reward actions in games, otherwise you create degenerative gameplay. Right now the game gives the most points for things which dont really enhance the game. It would in fact be better for the game, for say a hard dynamic event chain to reward more than an easy one. By the exact same ideaology, a hard dungeon rewarding more than an easy one would be a better design.

yes people play the game for many different reasons, and you should reward them differently, as well as reward them the better they are at it. Then money will actually be a method for exchanging value, but thats a whole different topic.

I’m saying that if a game is designed for casual people, than giving those casual people no path to specific rewards is not going to work and you will lose players, and I don’t care if it’s fair or not. Games are entertainment as well as competition. This game, PvE particularly, wasn’t designed to be competitive. It was designed to be cooperative.

But you know, people keep bringing up Guild Wars 1 on these forums. There were precious few rewards you couldn’t buy in Guild Wars 1. That included the rewards from any of the end game areas, including DOA. A casual player could buy a tormented weapon. Or an Armbrace of truth.

And you could buy all the ectos and obby shards you need for armor. You could even buy a run to get to the person who makes the armor (which wasn’t actually that hard anyway).

You could buy frog scepters, celestial compasses, voltaic spears, bonecage scythes, rare minipets. There were very few minipets you couldn’t buy and sell in the game.

So I’m not sure what the problem is with making rewards buyable.

Do you need a mini to play the game? Do you need that skin in order to complete whatever it is you need to complete?

That’s the difference you’re not seeing.

Nobody “needs” to compete either. That’s just something some people want. Nobody “needs” ANYTHING in a game, everything that is available is a want. , and the game should provide everything that players want, within reason. Different players want to play the game in different ways, and the developers should try to avoid reewarding some ways better than others, or preventing people from getting the stuff they want unless they participate in specific content that they may not enjoy. The developers should never reward gamers for not having fun.

News flash – this is a thing in the game already. People playing the TP are insanely rich. I’m talking tens of thousands of gold. And they’re not even navigating content – just buy orders.

Yeah, that sucks. I’ve been asking ANet to fix it for over a year now, and so far John Smith just laughs, but two wrongs don’t make a right, and people farming “difficult” content that they’ve learned to trivialize is little better than people using the TP in a way that is semi-effortless. Both should be prevented.

Also – speaking of resenting the game – I resent the game because players who are less skilled can get just about everything I can in game with almost no effort put in their build, their play style or anything else.

Resenting other players because they can get the things they want is not something for which I can offer you any sympathy. You are not owed the right to consider yourself superior to other people playing a game.

Also – Why can’t you run one fractal at a time exactly?
I seem to recall each one has a chest at the end – so what’s the problem here?

First, it would just be rude. Nobody signs up to do one fractal at a time, so chances are if you did one and ditched you would be wasting a lot of time for the rest of the group, and that is just unacceptable behavior. Second, there are lots of rewards that only come in the boss chests, just you can complete the first fractal thousands of times and never reach the boss in the current mechanic (or ever leave rank 1).

They need to do a system in which you can move through the entire fractal list, three then a boss, three then a boss, and so on to Fractal 50 if you so desire, but doing it one fractal at a time, 15-30 minutes at a time and then off to do something else, rather than forcing you to do the entire sequence at once. Groups would of course advertise which they wanted to do, individual fractals or a full sequence.

is it unfair that to get an NBA ring, you have to win an NBA championship? Is it unfair that pulitzers are given only to top writers? Unfair that only police officers can drive police cars?

You’re confusing “trophies” with a lot of other things in the game. A skin is not a trophy, a mini-pet is not a trophy. If they want to give out actual trophies, like trinkets that are mechanically identical to existing ones but that have unique names and icons, then fine. Even if they want to make little statues that you can keep in your Home Instance, fine. But a weapon or armor skin, or a fun little mini-pet, should not be a trophy for extraordinary achievement. It can require work to gain them, but it should be work that is within the means of the average player. You might have to win the NBA championships to get an NBA ring, but not to get a jersey.

Work for something = have it.
Don’t work for something = don’t have it.

But this is a game, the goal is to have fun, not to work. Work should be avoided.

NewTrain.7549:

Beldin.5498:

NewTrain.7549:

Fact is, more challenging content (that you wouldn’t be forced to do) would greatly increase the fun of the game for a large group of players and yet you’re against it because it’s not something you personally enjoy.

The real “fact” is that those that want “more challenging content” mostly just want stuff
that 95% of the playerbase will never have a chance to get, so that they can show off
how great they are.

And THAT is what i am against.

You’re confused on what actually constitutes a fact. Where is your proof that 95% of the people who advocate for harder content only want superior rewards. I want harder content because I find challenges to be fun. The reward can be on par with what’s currently offered and as long as it’s exciting and engaging I’ll keep playing. hence why I enjoy PvP (though not much in GW2) because of the variable challenge.

Oh common .. just read the forums .. read thos thread .. next post already :

hard content needs either greater, or different rewards, because it is harder.

And that in the end again says : (nearly) nobody wants harder content .. they just
want “exclusive” rewards that not everyone can get.
If they want hard content just because its soooo much fun, then they rewards only
need to be “fair” .. 1 hour hard content gets the same reward then 1 hour easy content
because the reward is doing the hard content instead of the lame boring easy stuff.