Guild Wars 2

chat is screwing up so idk if this is gonna double post or somethin.. but anyways..

“Stupid, but true. Games with gear progression are all about overcoming a lack of skill by spending more time playing. It’s all about outgearing content and outgearing players. Otherwise, it serves no purpose aside from dictating the order in which you have to do things, and the average number of times you have to do thing x before you can do thing y.”

personally i disagree with it being a way to “overcome a lack of skill”. thats an absent minded assumption to throw at gear grinders as a whole and shows that you havent comprehended anything anyone has tried to say in other threads about why they like gear grinds and progression at endgame.
and secondly the thing i thought was stupid was you labeling them as jobless no lives. again, mindless assumption. most of the really super hardcore grinders ive known are adults with successful jobs, and what i think is that people that work hard and are very focused in mmos are just that, hard working and focused people, meaning in rl too in their jobs etc. not ALL of course, but ive found it to be true for almost everyone like that ive met

Cezton.2415:

I’m not talking about adding a real “grind” to this game.

I’m talking about adding more variety and depth to already implemented features and corners of the game in the PvE instead of the same old that everyone else is doing.

What do you mean by real “grind”? Do you mean the grind for better and better gear stats? I think many of us will agree that we do not want that sort of grind.

If that’s what you mean, how would you suggest adding variety and depth without adding real “grind”?

chasingfuries.9635:

chat is screwing up so idk if this is gonna double post or somethin.. but anyways..

“Stupid, but true. Games with gear progression are all about overcoming a lack of skill by spending more time playing. It’s all about outgearing content and outgearing players. Otherwise, it serves no purpose aside from dictating the order in which you have to do things, and the average number of times you have to do thing x before you can do thing y.”

personally i disagree with it being a way to “overcome a lack of skill”. thats an absent minded assumption to throw at gear grinders as a whole and shows that you havent comprehended anything anyone has tried to say in other threads about why they like gear grinds and progression at endgame.
and secondly the thing i thought was stupid was you labeling them as jobless no lives. again, mindless assumption. most of the really super hardcore grinders ive known are adults with successful jobs, and what i think is that people that work hard and are very focused in mmos are just that, hard working and focused people, meaning in rl too in their jobs etc. not ALL of course, but ive found it to be true for almost everyone like that ive met

It is what it is. If you can’t beat the content, you don’t have to get better, you just go gear up more and come back to it. Time making up for skill. And yes, I’m afraid that favours those who have less to do in their real lives.

While I do not agree with the sentiment that the game needs more item progression in the endgame I wholeheartedly agree that we need more places to spend our Karma.

Regarding progression: I got to 80 with my Thief relatively fast. But as I dislike grinding in MMOs I just can’t stand doing endless amounts of events in Orr for the money I need to get a full exotic armor. I mostly play for the WvW and while I make money there its no where in line to what I need. By now I have crafted myself a full set of exotic armor and bought an exotic dagger, but still need trinkets and runes and while I was having fun in WvW the price for a superior divinity rune went up from ~2G to ~4G. So I really don’t see where that “2-3 days until BiS Gear” is coming from. Oh well, yesterday I crafted a magic find set and to the grinder I will go…

On the other hand: Karma. After hitting 80 there are basically 2 uses for it. Buying the 80 exotic Orr armor sets (which I didn’t do because I didn’t like the stats on them) and legendary weapons. So for me it just is a number in my inventory that steadily grows because I just have no use for it. And as it is character bound I can’t even use it for twinks. Although I applaud the addition of account bound karma items for the daily/monthly quests.

So in a nutshell: We need more ways to spend Karma. Give me the ability to buy skins with it, or a wider variety of items, anything. Pretty please?

axiology.5807:

Cezton.2415:

I’m not talking about adding a real “grind” to this game.

I’m talking about adding more variety and depth to already implemented features and corners of the game in the PvE instead of the same old that everyone else is doing.

What do you mean by real “grind”? Do you mean the grind for better and better gear stats? I think many of us will agree that we do not want that sort of grind.

If that’s what you mean, how would you suggest adding variety and depth without adding real “grind”?

What I mean by real grind is that personally I don’t want this game to be like Cabal in terms of having to mindlessly grind for a reward months into the future doing the same bland task day in and day out. There needs to be some aspect of working towards something but everyone is dying to word that as grinding for something.

It seems few can actually stomach the fact that this is a petty war between “casuals” and the “hardcore”. I’d consider myself neither, likely in the middle of both.

Many of you will agree that you don’t want that sort of grind, but remember, there is more than one type of player who wants something than just you. Why shouldn’t the game cater to many audiences? Would it really kill your experience if there was more stuff to get, even if you couldn’t/didn’t want to get it. I would go about changing chests for dragons, especially Jormag. A 20 minute fight shouldn’t give you the exact same loot as other chests. (2 blues, a green, RARELY a yellow, NEVER an exotic).

Acquiring gold in this game takes forever, and I very much like that. At the same time, there’s little you can do with that gold aside from cosmetics.

Honestly, I can survive without loot tables with improved stats. I’ve actually gotten used to the whole cosmetic thing but even so that all feels extremely limited.

My biggest complaints are regarding world chests and dungeon chests. The rewards in PvE are just too skimpy at present, and every single person I see in heavy armor has the heavy set from doing Orr events, or the fire set from CoF. The fact that sets are split between heavy/medium/light further bogs down any real variety.

Mammoth.1975:

It is what it is. If you can’t beat the content, you don’t have to get better, you just go gear up more and come back to it. Time making up for skill. And yes, I’m afraid that favours those who have less to do in their real lives.

thats a really narrow minded way to look at it and while it may be true for SOME, there’s other reasons for liking/wanting endgame character progression besides being a bad player that needs more stats because they lack skill, and those other reasons have been voiced repeatedly in threads ive seen you post in, but you still seem to be completely making yourself blind to everything except your opinion so…

and so having lots of free time to spend on a game = being a no-life jobless basement dweller? thats some logic right there.

chasingfuries.9635:

Mammoth.1975:

It is what it is. If you can’t beat the content, you don’t have to get better, you just go gear up more and come back to it. Time making up for skill. And yes, I’m afraid that favours those who have less to do in their real lives.

thats a really narrow minded way to look at it and while it may be true for SOME, there’s other reasons for liking/wanting endgame character progression besides being a bad player that needs more stats because they lack skill, and those other reasons have been voiced repeatedly in threads ive seen you post in, but you still seem to be completely making yourself blind to everything except your opinion so…

and so having lots of free time to spend on a game = being a no-life jobless basement dweller? thats some logic right there.

Well feel free to point out where I’m wrong here.

1. You get better gear.
2. The bosses get better stats.
3. The gear hasn’t improved you, it’s kept you on par. Change is only cosmetic.

1. You go back to an old instance.
2. You clear it with ease because you outgear it.
3. Outgearing content makes it trivial.

Which means the gear grind is nothing but an artificial way of saying – ‘you can’t do this instance until you’ve done that one enough times to get the gear you need’.

I like the “MMO” part of MMO’s, the feeling of being in a world with other players, a bit of PvP, playing with friends, some social interaction etc.

I hate the “Everquest” part of MMOs – the grind, the treadmill, the themeparkness.

Really, my ideal game would be something like Dark Souls but with a proper server, some more multiplayer features and more ongoing patches / support. There’s not much grind in that game, and the loot is generally not random, but instead placed in specific locations.

Alternatively, I really like EVE’s structure, but I don’t like their spaceship combat.

Anyways, people need to wise up and realise not every MMO has to follow the Everquest gameplay model. The only thing an MMO “must” have is multiplayer. (although we have games like .hack and FF12 which are singleplayer MMO-style games, so maybe not even that.)

I was quite happy with GW1’s grindless gameplay (I just ignore stuff like special skins and titles etc.) GW2 has a bit more grind but it’s still in the tolerable range.

Anyways, basically take every game for what it is, and don’t have stupid preconcieved expectations of what it should or shouldnt be.

sorry cezton but the the truth for you is

GW2 is not for you

end of story.

if you want grind mechanics or whatever GW2 doesnt’ have at its core then sorry
arenanet cant’ please everyone and obviously not the playerbase of your likes (which is a minority at this days)

sorry

OP has 100% delivered in my opinion, this game needs something more and i especially agree with karma being useless atm.

So you are telling me that making players even In gear and everything else, and how does the game does not “force” you to do anything Is a bad thing?

Heh. The more you know.

As everyone else said here…. maybe this game Is not for you, OP.

GW2 is not a grind game, it will never be, and it does not need to be.

The whole success of the game is based on the fact we finally got a MMO where you don’t have to grind – should they put any treadmill in the game would die in a minute.
It will never happen.

I really don’t get people who think here is no grind in this game. True, compared to other games the level grind is not huge. There’s a gear grind, a karma grind, a crafting/gathering grind and a gold grind.

Grind means doing the same things over and over with little or no reward. They upped the grind by adding DR. It’s the feeling of progression and moving towards something that is rewarding. That is what makes it fun.

Let’s say you went to a psychic that was never wrong. You asked the psychic to tell you about getting rich (you are currently 20 years old and dirt poor) The psychic tells you that you will remain dirt poor until you 100th birthday, then you will win the lottery for 500 million.

Would you be happy? I mean sure it’s good news you’ d live to be 100 and get uber rich too. However, its just too far away and you will have to go through too much to get to it. You not only want to get there, but have fun along the way.

Same with GW2 grind. Sure, you could beat your head against the wall to get enough karma and gold to reach your goals. It wouldn’t be fun though.

SHM.7628:

I really don’t get people who think here is no grind in this game. True comparedto other games the level grind is not huge. There’s a gear gring, a karma grind, a crafting/gathering grind and a gold grind.

Grind means doing the same things over and over with little or no reward. They upped the grind by adding DR. It’s the feeling of progression and moving towards something that is rewarding. That is what makes it fun.

Let’s say you went to a psychic that was never wrong. You asked the psychic to tell you about getting rich (you are currently 20 years old and dirt poor) The psychic tells you that you will remain dirt poor until you 100th birthday, then you will win the lottery for 500 million.

Would you be happy? I mean sure it’s good news you’ d live to be 100 and get uber rich too. However, its just too far away and you will have to go through too much to get to it. You not only want to get there, but have fun along the way.

Same with GW2 grind. Sure you could beat your head against the wall to get enough karma and gold to reach your goals. It wouldn’t be fun though. If you don’t feel progression and a sense of movement = no fun.

As a matter of fact, I have 450 hours in, 3 lvl 80s on full exotics and I have yet to do the same thing twice on any of my charaters.
Grind is definitely not there, at least not for your needs.

Cezton.2415:

Replace the word grind with having to work for “anything”. Character progression with reward is the most important part of these games.

Exactly. This really is the way MMOs work. Removing it just gives a pointless feel to it all. Sure you can just play around and do events and enjoy the world, but after a few weeks you’ll realize that tomorrow the same dolyak will be walking to the same point, the same skritt thieves will steal the same supplies, etc. Playing for fun doesn’t last. People need character progression.

Echo.7634:

Funny. In GW and now GW2 the “most important part” is missing.
And yet BOTH games are highly successful.

It’s hard to talk about GW2’s success when the game is this young. For GW1, it was actually not missing. Character progression and reward came in the form of completing the game in various ways and titles. Without gwamm / cotg , I am quite sure GW1’s (PvE) population would have been at most 10% of what it was now.

GW2 could have done character progression like GW1, they have a system set up for it (achievements). But the mistake they made, or at least what ruins it for me, is that they added 10000 pointless random achievents, like kill 100 of this mob or make 100 kills with this weapon. If they removed all the crap, and kept only achievements that really mean something, then there would be our character progression, GW1 style.

This is a very young game. ANet has plans to add much, much more content. That said, you have to remember that language is not static. The definition for “MMO” will evolve along with the games the moniker represents. Your specific perception of what an MMO should be may be too rigid. Time will tell.

Red Falcon.8257:

SHM.7628:

I really don’t get people who think here is no grind in this game. True comparedto other games the level grind is not huge. There’s a gear gring, a karma grind, a crafting/gathering grind and a gold grind.

Grind means doing the same things over and over with little or no reward. They upped the grind by adding DR. It’s the feeling of progression and moving towards something that is rewarding. That is what makes it fun.

Let’s say you went to a psychic that was never wrong. You asked the psychic to tell you about getting rich (you are currently 20 years old and dirt poor) The psychic tells you that you will remain dirt poor until you 100th birthday, then you will win the lottery for 500 million.

Would you be happy? I mean sure it’s good news you’ d live to be 100 and get uber rich too. However, its just too far away and you will have to go through too much to get to it. You not only want to get there, but have fun along the way.

Same with GW2 grind. Sure you could beat your head against the wall to get enough karma and gold to reach your goals. It wouldn’t be fun though. If you don’t feel progression and a sense of movement = no fun.

As a matter of fact, I have 450 hours in, 3 lvl 80s on full exotics and I have yet to do the same thing twice on any of my charaters.
Grind is definitely not there, at least not for your needs.

Yeah, I just don’t buy that. You have 3 level 80’s and never did the same thing twice? By my second character i was repeating everything except the starter areas. Perhaps, You might have gotten away with buying you exotic gear, but Full karma gear? I find that very suspect. However, lets assume that what you said was truthful.

Perhaps you don’t find any of what I described as grindy. However, You played 450 hours in 60 days. (That is how long the game is out.) I’ve done the math. That means you must have played a minimum of 7.5 hours a day. If you skipped any days then you played even more than that. So basically, You played almost every waking hour assuming you sleep and work 8 hours a day.

Ok, so you are hardcore and don’t think its a grind. I get it. Can you see how people with lives would disagree with you?

I’m starting to understand what the OP means by too much equality. This game is a “casual” wet dream. I’ve seen threads of “casuals” celebrating their “equality.” In otherwords, the fact that they get rewarded the same no matter what they do or don’t do.

I would say that isn’t sustainable only we don’t rent this game by the month. Even at that, I’m finding my drive to play this game much less than my desire was to play even diablo 2 for this specific reason.

MMOs are not sustainable without deep meaningful character progression even if that offends people who don’t have the time, desire, or ability to progress their characters. Socialist one size fits all gaming philosophy has been leading the industry to ruin for a few years now.

Red Falcon.8257:

GW2 is not a grind game, it will never be, and it does not need to be.

The whole success of the game is based on the fact we finally got a MMO where you don’t have to grind – should they put any treadmill in the game would die in a minute.
It will never happen.

Face the music because no doubt this game is going to implement things in the future that has the player work for in some shape or form. You have to really look at wants/needs of players. To satisfy the want, they’ve got legendary weapons and cultural armor at absurd prices or beyond the veil of extreme gambling, both asking the player to grind heavily to receive. Many players WILL and ARE doing this.

So what are you saying exactly? That they aren’t going to add any carrot whatsoever to this game? Nothing that a player can work for? The lot of you are desperately looking to use the word grind wherever there is any work or “want” involved.

Nowhere am I asking that this game be turned into a crazy grinding MMO.

Merely all I’ve said is that I would like to see loot tables or better loot quality from the world, among other tweaks. The entire game needn’t be a grind, but certain aspects should have more depth to strengthen the variation between players.

This wouldn’t harm you, but you’re acting like it would all high and mighty.

Cezton.2415:

The lot of you are desperately looking to use the word grind wherever there is any work or “want” involved.

I really think the word “effort” is a more appropriate description than “work.”

Vlaxitov.5693:

I’m starting to understand what the OP means by too much equality. This game is a “casual” wet dream. I’ve seen threads of “casuals” celebrating their “equality.” In otherwords, the fact that they get rewarded the same no matter what they do or don’t do.

I would say that isn’t sustainable only we don’t rent this game by the month. Even at that, I’m finding my drive to play this game much less than my desire was to play even diablo 2 for this specific reason.

MMOs are not sustainable without deep meaningful character progression even if that offends people who don’t have the time, desire, or ability to progress their characters. Socialist one size fits all gaming philosophy has been leading the industry to ruin for a few years now.

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

ciannait.1945:

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

I also work for a living and thats beside the point. You’re really arguing that all other people should forever be doomed to be entertained under your personal limitations. That their entertainment needs to be “fair” for you.

Cezton.2415:

Face the music because no doubt this game is going to implement things in the future that has the player work for in some shape or form. You have to really look at wants/needs of players. To satisfy the want, they’ve got legendary weapons and cultural armor at absurd prices or beyond the veil of extreme gambling, both asking the player to grind heavily to receive. Many players WILL and ARE doing this.

No one has said they want to be handed everything, there’s nothing wrong with working at something and getting a reward. We’re not demanding the current dungeon loot be given to people who dislike dungeons are we? No, we accept a grind when it’s optional and whether you have done it has no effect on the outcome of an encounter.

Nothing that requires a grind gives an advantage, that T3 set doesn’t have better stats than my exotics bought for 1-2g a piece on the TP.

So what are you saying exactly? That they aren’t going to add any carrot whatsoever to this game? Nothing that a player can work for? The lot of you are desperately looking to use the word grind wherever there is any work or “want” involved.

Again, no one has said that. But you’re not talking about rewards (as in plural, different sorts of rewards), you’re talking purely about a stat advantage. It’s not enough to do content for fun or for cosmetic reward, you only want one specific carrot which will give you an advantage over everyone who doesn’t have it.

It’s like the carrot is only acceptable if you can beat others down with it.

Nowhere am I asking that this game be turned into a crazy grinding MMO.

Good, because nowhere is anyone saying that everything should be handed out for free, nor that nothing new should be added for players to work towards. We are simply disagreeing about what that something should be.

Merely all I’ve said is that I would like to see loot tables or better loot quality from the world, among other tweaks. The entire game needn’t be a grind, but certain aspects should have more depth to strengthen the variation between players.

Loot tables? Perhaps, but what’s the actual advantage of that? All you’re doing is forcing people to do certain content (we have that in dungeons, we don’t need to further limit existing content).

And variation between players does not have to be a statistical advantage.

This wouldn’t harm you, but you’re acting like it would all high and mighty.

If this “better” gear had better stats, and was only in the loot tables of content which I did not enjoy, then it would very much affect me.

From a PvE perspective, GW2 will definitely get more level 80 content that is non-grindy does not require raiding and a gear treadmill. There are many patches of the Tryian map that have yet to be opened up and that will come with time. Adding depth to DE’s and Meta DE’s will be up to Anet to determine. Adding DE’s with multiple outcomes and multiple event chains as well as more permanent world effects will give more meaning to fighting for those events. There will also be more achievements to shoot for over time.

Addressing the issue with “Equality”:

Aside from that, the reasons I have heard for why people leave GW2 is because they love the gear tread-mill and the simplicity of knowing your ‘role’. It has nothing to do with being a no-lifer or not. But your sense of progression is still tied to how much time you invest in the game itself, which is what keeps people paying subscription fees. In traditional MMO’s, people gear up for raiding and raid maybe 2-3 times a week on average at night after they’re done with work. They like this because it is convenient and predictable. You do your part, study up on raids ahead of time, and press the same buttons over and over again. You are rewarded for your repetitive work by getting better gear and stats thereby increasing your illusion of ‘progression’ as a character. It really has nothing to do with skill at all. Your sense of accomplishment comes from having the satisfaction that you are much more powerful than players who have invested less time. You haven’t gotten ‘better’ you’ve just played more than other people.

As for actual distinctions in skill, I think you can get a better sense of this in PvP then in PvE as it currently stands in GW2. One could argue that jumping puzzles require a certain amount of skill to complete in PvE, but I notice many people don’t even mention them in these types of arguments, possibly because it is more typically associated with platformers and not MMO’s. I think if Anet sticks to their original goal of adding more depth to a dynamically changing world with more permanent changes, this will give players a greater sense of accomplishment, though I doubt anything other than a gear-treadmill will satisfy those who are used to this way of playing. However there are people who are satisfied with playing both GW2 and other tread-mill games to get their progression fix and that seems to work fine for them.

Vlaxitov.5693:

ciannait.1945:

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

I also work for a living and thats beside the point. You’re really arguing that all other people should forever be doomed to be entertained under your personal limitations. That their entertainment needs to be “fair” for you.

You’re arguing the same thing. You want everyone in the game to have to “work” the same amount you do. If it’s not fair for me to say, it’s not fair for you either.

SHM.7628:

Perhaps you don’t find any of what I described as grindy. However, You played 450 hours in 60 days. (That is how long the game is out.) I’ve done the math. That means you must have played a minimum of 7.5 hours a day. If you skipped any days then you played even more than that. So basically, You played almost every waking hour assuming you sleep and work 8 hours a day.

On top of that, he’s constantly on these forums and gw2guru (unless the Red_Falcon there is someone else) white knighting for ArenaNet. It is remotely possible that this game is indeed his life. However, its so unlikely that I think it’s safe to call B. S.

Vlaxitov.5693:

ciannait.1945:

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

I also work for a living and thats beside the point. You’re really arguing that all other people should forever be doomed to be entertained under your personal limitations. That their entertainment needs to be “fair” for you.

No. Other people have other games – he’s merely expecting that a game designed from ground up to cater to those specific limitations and taste stays true to it.

People need to read up how many hours average mmo players play mmos before they proceed to argue from assumptions.

“Casual” mmo players are unicorns.

Vlaxitov.5693:

People need to read up how many hours average mmo players play mmos before they proceed to argue from assumptions.

“Casual” mmo players are unicorns.

Good to know I have a horn in the middle of my head, then.

Even if 70% stop playing this game still has more then enough players left to keep on going.

Hardcore players should look els where to feed there addiction.
I like the casual part of this game.. it’s the main reason why i play it.
Specially when it comes to PvP. I love the fact i can win vs nolifers with SKILL, instead of them one hitting me cause they spend there days grinding gear 8 hours a day.

And this has nothing to do with beeing lazy just got to much time to spend on work/real life.

Oh and equality is needed to make this game balanced/skill based the more the beter

rdash.7160:

No. Other people have other games – he’s merely expecting that a game designed from ground up to cater to those specific limitations and taste stays true to it.

…. and I said that game is unsustainable whether he thinks he wants it or not..

Vlaxitov.5693:

rdash.7160:

No. Other people have other games – he’s merely expecting that a game designed from ground up to cater to those specific limitations and taste stays true to it.

…. and I said that game is unsustainable whether he thinks he wants it or not..

With your level of knowledge, actually being able to predict the future and know in advance what design decisions will result in what level of success, I’m surprised a development studio hasn’t snapped you up!

ciannait.1945:

Vlaxitov.5693:

People need to read up how many hours average mmo players play mmos before they proceed to argue from assumptions.

“Casual” mmo players are unicorns.

Good to know I have a horn in the middle of my head, then.

For all any of us know, you could be an 10 hour a day player.

This could be one of three mmos you play.

Grind should only be for skins. There should be legendary skins for weapons and armor. Give the hardcore something to work at. I would never do it, but I get the need for them to have it in the game. They need bragging rights. When I paid 252,000 karma for exotic gear I felt it was way too high. (and that was before DR was a factor.)

Vlaxitov.5693:

rdash.7160:

No. Other people have other games – he’s merely expecting that a game designed from ground up to cater to those specific limitations and taste stays true to it.

…. and I said that game is unsustainable whether he thinks he wants it or not..

Which is false, as proven by GW1, capable of sustaining itself and attracting enough capital for sequel.

Not quite sure how the OP post of “give us more than 1 skin on karma gear” is interpreted as “I hate GW2 because it doesn’t have grinding”

rdash.7160:

Vlaxitov.5693:

rdash.7160:

No. Other people have other games – he’s merely expecting that a game designed from ground up to cater to those specific limitations and taste stays true to it.

…. and I said that game is unsustainable whether he thinks he wants it or not..

Which is false, as proven by GW1, capable of sustaining itself and attracting enough capital for sequel.

Even though I didn’t like it, I know for a fact that GW1 had more meaningful progression than this…

Nice try.

lacrimstein.5603:

SHM.7628:

Perhaps you don’t find any of what I described as grindy. However, You played 450 hours in 60 days. (That is how long the game is out.) I’ve done the math. That means you must have played a minimum of 7.5 hours a day. If you skipped any days then you played even more than that. So basically, You played almost every waking hour assuming you sleep and work 8 hours a day.

On top of that, he’s constantly on these forums and gw2guru (unless the Red_Falcon there is someone else) white knighting for ArenaNet. It is remotely possible that this game is indeed his life. However, its so unlikely that I think it’s safe to call B. S.

Glad you called it

ciannait.1945:

Vlaxitov.5693:

ciannait.1945:

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

I also work for a living and thats beside the point. You’re really arguing that all other people should forever be doomed to be entertained under your personal limitations. That their entertainment needs to be “fair” for you.

You’re arguing the same thing. You want everyone in the game to have to “work” the same amount you do. If it’s not fair for me to say, it’s not fair for you either.

And this is where the topics title kicks in “too much equality” you would still have the choice not to put in any effort towards the game while other people who wish to do so have the chance. The choice was taken away from the people who would put effort in cause of all the supercasual gamers here who will not stay and play the game after 6 months like the people who care to play it. You might log in every now and then to check your stuff on the TP but that will just be like D3. Log in to check if you sold something, log out. Going down the same path by having nothing to keep the players interested for a longer term. Once you complete the map and your personal story then you have nothing to do but put hours towards a legendary weapon which doesn’t seem to matter the slightest.

Cezton.2415:

-snip-.

The OP quote is essentially QQ about legendary items in disguise. Hence, I snipped it. But, on his side-topic, I believe, Karma should be used for other items including to obtain cultural armor similar to cultural weapon.

The whole concept of karma was basically as a character your deeds reflect who you are; you gain renown; people know you for what you did and eventually you get rewarded for your good deeds thru karma. As a human, or a norn, or a sylvari etc. the good deeds should reflect the essence of your culture. As an ambassador of your culture you should be able to sport a weapon or ethnic dresses proudly. Karma should be the currency for it as your toon is gaining it on its own but, not thru accumulated wealth (aka gold) of your account.

I think ANET decided to stay true to the karma concept as it applies to the role-playing scenario by keeping karma by character instead of the account but, realized that it may become a prohibitive element (needless grind) to use it as a currency for both cultural armor and weapon. So, they used karma as a currency for the weapon only.

But, to OP’s interest, maybe ANET can rethink that and give options to the players to buy it either with gold or karma depending on the player’s choice. That way OP will get something to grind.

However, pity on OP for buying a product without checking what it stands for. GW franchise does not stand for gear grind to gain advantage over another player. We all play this game because we like that concept. If you don’t like it, sorry, you got trolled.

Vlaxitov.5693:

rdash.7160:

Vlaxitov.5693:

rdash.7160:

No. Other people have other games – he’s merely expecting that a game designed from ground up to cater to those specific limitations and taste stays true to it.

…. and I said that game is unsustainable whether he thinks he wants it or not..

Which is false, as proven by GW1, capable of sustaining itself and attracting enough capital for sequel.

Even though I didn’t like it, I know for a fact that GW1 had more meaningful progression than this…

Nice try.

Like what?

Cezton.2415:

The game is centered around events heavily, yet karma is only useful for one set of armor in Orr, and various skins on par with lower level items.

We simply need more things to spend karma on.

There are few rewards in both PvP and PvE. Chests from puzzles, dragons and dungeons drop various vendor trash, blues and greens and the occasional yellow worth 10-15s. There’s no burn, no urge to really grind.

Heads up folks, MMOs are about grinding. How it’s implemented is what determines if it’s a good or bad form of grinding. Gambling for legendary precursors or saving up 300-700g over the course of months is probably one of the worst forms yet.

The cosmetic approach, the approach for all to have fun and be equal feels like it will be the downfall of this game after a few months of everyone doing the same things.

I’m amazed that I’m actually desiring a worthwhile grind, and am amazed that there are no real loot tables in such a successful MMO title.

I think you just need to reword your argument from “grind” to “character progression”. Once you reach 80 with a full set or two of gear you are basically done. There is no further character progression but there are tons of things you can "grind’ like legendaries, skins, gold for various things such as pet collections, valor, WvW, etc…

Pilusilm.5682:

ciannait.1945:

Vlaxitov.5693:

ciannait.1945:

I work for a living. I have one job already – I don’t need another one.

I also work for a living and thats beside the point. You’re really arguing that all other people should forever be doomed to be entertained under your personal limitations. That their entertainment needs to be “fair” for you.

You’re arguing the same thing. You want everyone in the game to have to “work” the same amount you do. If it’s not fair for me to say, it’s not fair for you either.

And this is where the topics title kicks in “too much equality” you would still have the choice not to put in any effort towards the game while other people who wish to do so have the chance. The choice was taken away from the people who would put effort in cause of all the supercasual gamers here who will not stay and play the game after 6 months like the people who care to play it. You might log in every now and then to check your stuff on the TP but that will just be like D3. Log in to check if you sold something, log out. Going down the same path by having nothing to keep the players interested for a longer term. Once you complete the map and your personal story then you have nothing to do but put hours towards a legendary weapon which doesn’t seem to matter the slightest.

Yes you get it and this is why I say games that follow this philosophy are unsustainable whether people like it or not.

Vlaxitov.5693:

ciannait.1945:

Vlaxitov.5693:

People need to read up how many hours average mmo players play mmos before they proceed to argue from assumptions.

“Casual” mmo players are unicorns.

Good to know I have a horn in the middle of my head, then.

For all any of us know, you could be an 10 hour a day player.

This could be one of three mmos you play.

I have to prove my casual-ness to you? I get home from work. I log on between 6.30pm and 7pm. I play until 8.30 or 9pm. My highest-level is 28, I think. My crafting is all sub-50.

I used to play WoW, vanilla and TBC. I did weekend-long grinds of MC and BWL (and Naxx before I realized that I don’t hate myself THAT much). I never, ever want to go back to that again.

I can log in to GW2, get my dailies done, do some crafting, do a story quest, log off, and feel like I’ve gotten something done. Your implication is that I am not a player worth courting. I disagree wholeheartedly.

Jestunhi.7429:

Again, no one has said that. But you’re not talking about rewards (as in plural, different sorts of rewards), you’re talking purely about a stat advantage. It’s not enough to do content for fun or for cosmetic reward, you only want one specific carrot which will give you an advantage over everyone who doesn’t have it.

It’s like the carrot is only acceptable if you can beat others down with it.

Actually I’ve gotten used to the whole cosmetic thing. I don’t desire to have better stats than anyone else, and I think I only mentioned improved loot with better stats once if that, and not how you’re implying I did.

I’m saying that every single chest I’ve opened since 80, every Jormag run I’ve done has come down to me receiving the same vendor trash each and every time, how every chest in the dungeons has the done same thing, how I would love some variety other than the few dungeon armor/weapon vendors showcased in Lion’s Arch.

Something more than the TP with the same repeated weapon and armor skins that everybody else has (need variety, not an advantage!), and like most vendors with the whole heavy/medium/light armor that professions have to share with one another.

Unfortunately for this variety to exist there must be some factor of effort involved, and with that I don’t desire massively challenging grinds that will put me ahead of someone per se, so much as something that I (ME) can work for.

My ideas aren’t sound, but I know that a bit more needs to be implemented.

Loot tables? Perhaps, but what’s the actual advantage of that? All you’re doing is forcing people to do certain content (we have that in dungeons, we don’t need to further limit existing content).

And variation between players does not have to be a statistical advantage.

Stop with the advantage stuff, I’m not looking for an advantage over others, I just personally want to chase the carrot and put in the effort so I can personally feel good about my character. I don’t feel great about spending 15g and having full exotics immediately at 80, and then having to reuse the same heavy armor skins everyone else has, whilst I open chests and get the same couple-of-silver blues/greens repeatedly.

If they added additional loot tables in some way to dungeons or world chests, who says you are forced to go for them? There should be many levels to acquiring cosmetics in this game. There should be more variety. Chests should be better.

rdash.7160:

Like what?

Like achievement rewards that meant more than grats.

ciannait.1945:

I have to prove my casual-ness to you? I get home from work. I log on between 6.30pm and 7pm. I play until 8.30 or 9pm. My highest-level is 28, I think. My crafting is all sub-50.

You just admitted to spending as much time playing this game as a part time job.

ciannait.1945:

I used to play WoW, vanilla and TBC. I did weekend-long grinds of MC and BWL (and Naxx before I realized that I don’t hate myself THAT much). I never, ever want to go back to that again.

I can log in to GW2, get my dailies done, do some crafting, do a story quest, log off, and feel like I’ve gotten something done. Your implication is that I am not a player worth courting. I disagree wholeheartedly.

You’re preaching to the choir about WoW. I don’t want an ever moving treadmill where my previous efforts are made irrelevant with expansions either. I want the character progression without a time limit aka time till the next expansion to contend with.

Vlaxitov.5693:

You just admitted to spending as much time playing this game as a part time job.

I didn’t say I didn’t want to spend time playing. I don’t want to feel like a certain time-sink is required in order for progression. Gated dailies are required for progress in WoW, for example, and is one reason I canceled my account.

Vlaxitov.5693:

You’re preaching to the choir about WoW. I don’t want an ever moving treadmill where my previous efforts are made irrelevant with expansions either. I want the character progression without a time limit aka time till the next expansion to contend with.

What would you like to see in the expansion, then? I’m curious.

Vlaxitov.5693:

rdash.7160:

Like what?

Like achievement rewards that meant more than grats.

Achievement rewards? Are you referring to PvE skills coming from title grind? Do you honestly think that several titles introduced in last expansion, released when the game was already commercially successful and thriving for three years made it suddenly sustainable?

CrazyGoNuts.9536:

Not quite sure how the OP post of “give us more than 1 skin on karma gear” is interpreted as “I hate GW2 because it doesn’t have grinding”

Exactly. I just want more variety and more things for me to personally work for, yet people are twisting my words to no end making it out like I want this to be a crazy grinding MMO/have a stat advantage over everyone.