Guild Wars 2

Over the past months I have seen plenty of complaints on the lack of end game in Guild Wars 2. For me this is not a problem as I love WvW and I am not very picky on the depth of end game. The fact of the matter is that Guild Wars 2 is losing old players because they have reached the level cap and are tired of WvW, sPvP, grinding for legendary, or don’t want to create another character and level them to 80. The question I have is why Arena net have this end game problem in the first place? It would make sense if this is their first MMO created but they have made one before and its been around for 7 years and players are STILL playing it even when the squeal has been released! I have not played Guild Wars one enough to know what the end game was. So the main question is, was this a problem in the first Guild Wars? And if not then why don’t they just take the end game mechanics from the first and put them in the second? And if it was a problem then how did they fix it and why have they not fixed the problem in this one yet? I am just really concerned about the future of the game when I see so many people stop playing because they have “nothing” left to do. I love this game so much and want to know what arena net have planned (hopefully they do) to put some end game content in the hands of their older fan base.

They will loss the casual player too if they went the other direction. It is kind of a double edge sword. Probably the reason why there’s no raiding. Wasting time on content just so you could loss a bunch of casual player.

I think they can play around with leader board. Maybe implement things like fastest dungeon clear etc etc, to spice up things. Guild vs Guild competition etc etc. Those would be fun.

Guild Wars 1 worked very differently to most MMOs (by most definitions it wasn’t strictly an MMO). No, there wasn’t a huge amount of endgame – it wasn’t the kind of game where you aimed for endgame. The level cap was 20 and you’d hit it halfway through the first campaign if you did all the side quests along the way.

There is an expectation that MMOs work on the model of levelling (boring) → gear up (tedious/challenging depending on the game) → endgame (infinite striving) at max level. Neither GW1 nor GW2 work on that assumption. The idea is that you enjoy playing the game, wherever you’re up to, not that you rush through Part A just to get to Part B. Personally, I love that (GW2 is certainly more casual-friendly than most MMOs). Not everyone does, which is fine.

I think the fact that GW2 is a lot more like a ‘typical’ MMO than its predecessor means that people come to it with different expectations.

Certain types of players WILL leave this game…and that’s okay. I don’t play League of Legend because I hate mobas…but it seems to be doing just fine.

I play and enjoy this game BECAUSE it has no “end game”. People who like and play this game are people who make their own end game. They decide what they enjoy and they do it. The game offers a variety of experiences for different types of players.

Some people won’t like ANY of the experiences on offer…and that’s okay. I believe there’s enough experiences on offer (with more as time goes on) to capture a big enough percentage of the player base for the game to do well.

The people who are complaining/leaving are people whose individual taste has not been catered to. They’ll call the game or combat shallow. They’ll say there’s no end game because there’s not enough gear progression. They’ll say there’s not enough challenging content. They’ll say there’s not enough variety…and they’re right. For them, there isn’t enough of those things.

But the combat is interesting enough to me. There’s enough end game for me. There’s enough gear progression for me (I could do with even less of it, truth be told). There’s enough variety to me.

What’s the difference if some people don’t like the game? I mean I wish they’d just go and play something they like instead of complaining, but hey, maybe Anet will change the game and give them something they want too. I don’t think it will happen because I think the Anet devs tend to think more like I do then like they do,but you never know.

Somebody has to explain to me what this “end game content” actually is. The only thing i can think of is raids.

Used to play Wow (for about a year) And once i got level 80. There was only raids to do really. For the rest it was just doing boring dailies for essentially nothing at all. And it was always extremely hard to get into raid groups so i never even did that. Im playing so much more content then ive done when i did Wow or any other MMO.

Oceangrave.9657:

Somebody has to explain to me what this “end game content” actually is. The only thing i can think of is raids.

When you start to play an MMO, the rate at which you progress is pretty steep. You gain levels, replace your gear with better one, get more skills, advance in the story line. When the rate of progression falls off fast because you are max level, finished the last story mission, or acquired the best non-raid gear, endgame takes over. It begins when most venues of progression come to a halt.

Endgame content is designed to allow players to keep feeling they are progressing/improving(at a severely reduced rate, but nonetheless) at the cost of a huge time commitment without causing huge imbalances in gameplay, or deprive players of the rewarding feeling that they are spending their playtime well. It’s usually also the most difficult content an MMO has to offer.

Raids are popular endgame content, but there’s also other types that fit the description, most notably Hard Mode in GW1.

The original GW1 endgame was designed to be PvP. It changed quite a bit as the game went on however.

I was never bored in GW1 due to a lot of factors:

1. PvP
2. Elite Skill Hunting
3. Leveling alts
4. Finding new places and ways to farm for awesome gear <—- this was something I really miss. Solo FoW, solo ice imps for IDS, solo UW, etc. There were so many interesting places to farm and interesting skills and ways to do it. Some of them were really challenging and fun each time you did it.
5. Helping guildies run missions.
6. Randomly helping PUGS. (I monked and loved helping to keep noobs alive)
7. Just enjoying the scenery. GW2 is pretty and beautiful but you just can’t get lost like you could in GW1. And I still think GW1 had a magical feeling about it’s geography.
8. Running. Running was a skill all on its own. Ask old Droks runners how much fun they had.
9. Theory and build crafting. I could do it for hours just to get owned and start all over.
10. Not really designed as real PvP, but random arenas was just a blast. It was terribly imbalanced and full of whining and flaming. But it was great.

I could actually go on, but ill stop at this.

Oceangrave.9657:

Somebody has to explain to me what this “end game content” actually is. The only thing i can think of is raids.

I played this other game which have 5 man dungeon on a weekly timer and it is very hard. It dont’ have to be raid.

The problem with fotm for me is there is no timer. And the grind is pretty horrific that you have to gain1 level at a time till you are level80. And the dungeon is pretty much the same all the way up except monster hit and agony tick more.

I think it is very hard to design difficult dungeon in this game because the class make up is very different for every group. And a difficult dungeon for 5 guardian might be impossible for 5 thief.

Another problem I find personally is this game segregate in to 3 part. pve, wvw, and spvp. I’m mainly a pve person, but I still want to do wvw or spvp, but I just can’t get into it because it dont’ reward things I can get in pve.

There is none. End of topic.

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

Are you telling people to stfu because you don’t agree with them? Okay. I won’t shut up though.

Yes, you can make your own end game. You can DECIDE, for example, that you want every armor set from every dungeon. That’s a choice you can make. You can decide to try to get every minipet. You can decide to try to get all named exotics. There are tons of ways to make your own end game.

None of these may appeal to you, but you really don’t need a sandbox MMO to make your own end game.

What an end game is is what you do at level 80. I’m at level 80 and I’m still playing . At the moment my end game is achievements and going for a legendary weapon….also some WvW.

I’m going through looking for all the jumping puzzles, too. And all the mini dungeons.

Hell, you could start a new character, turn off all the map markers and go for world complete, if you like that sort of challenge.

End game in Guild Wars 2 is what you make it.

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

I like how you say “once you got map completion the only thing left is….” and then proceed to name four different activities that can be done indefinitely.

Take any other MMO, and tell me, how amazingly many things there are to do in it after you reach max level and max gear.

Oh, right.

Not to mention, you can have map completion and still miss tons of things on maps. Yesterday I did the minidungeon in Caledon Forest.

Do you have any idea how much time I’ve spent in this zone. I have it completed on three characters, and never realized there was a minidungeon in it.

Morphisor.7290:

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

I like how you say “once you got map completion the only thing left is….” and then proceed to name four different activities that can be done indefinitely.

Take any other MMO, and tell me, how amazingly many things there are to do in it after you reach max level and max gear.

Oh, right.

That is the thing. In other mmorpg I never see all the content, I never killed all boss in the game, I never get maxed my gear, some of which I never even reach max level. And I’m a game addicted that play way too much video game.

I’m in no way saying GW2 design is bad. I’m just saying this game is designed to be much more casual. Which is a good and bad thing depend how you look at it.

Merely getting all boss/jumping/explorer achievements will keep you busy for a long time.

Also, you can consider the game beaten the moment you have a legendary. Which is good. I like it when a game has a clear endpoint, even if it takes ages to get there.

laokoko.7403:

Morphisor.7290:

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

I like how you say “once you got map completion the only thing left is….” and then proceed to name four different activities that can be done indefinitely.

Take any other MMO, and tell me, how amazingly many things there are to do in it after you reach max level and max gear.

Oh, right.

That is the thing. In other mmorpg I never see all the content, I never killed all boss in the game, I never get maxed my gear, some of which I never even reach max level. And I’m a game addicted that play way too much video game.

I’m in no way saying GW2 design is bad. I’m just saying this game is designed to be much more casual. Which is a good and bad thing depend how you look at it.

How many of those MMO did you play at launch? Because you could kill and do everything in games like Rift in a couple of months after launch EASILY. Even WoW when it launched, you could have done all the content in a couple of months.

Content takes time to produce. If you play an MMO with years behind it, you’ll have more to do. It’s simple logic.

Sophie Lone.8576:

…or don’t want to create another character and level them to 80…

I didn’t technically even have to read any further.

You don’t create a character to level them to 80!!!!!*

At least, in this game your goal shouldn’t always and by default be to get to 80. That’s the whole point on not really having an end-game. I mean, we DO have one, it’s just not like that other game’s. You make a new character because you want to have fun playing that race and class.

The quoted statement actually encapsulates the whole issue with grindy games that don’t really start until max level. GW2 starts at level 1, and you can feasibly play without ever reaching max level and still have a LOT more fun that you can in that other game at sub-max level.

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Morphisor.7290:

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

I like how you say “once you got map completion the only thing left is….” and then proceed to name four different activities that can be done indefinitely.

Take any other MMO, and tell me, how amazingly many things there are to do in it after you reach max level and max gear.

Oh, right.

That is the thing. In other mmorpg I never see all the content, I never killed all boss in the game, I never get maxed my gear, some of which I never even reach max level. And I’m a game addicted that play way too much video game.

I’m in no way saying GW2 design is bad. I’m just saying this game is designed to be much more casual. Which is a good and bad thing depend how you look at it.

How many of those MMO did you play at launch? Because you could kill and do everything in games like Rift in a couple of months after launch EASILY. Even WoW when it launched, you could have done all the content in a couple of months.

Content takes time to produce. If you play an MMO with years behind it, you’ll have more to do. It’s simple logic.

I dont’ like to talk about other games because it is like marketing for them. Let me put it this way without naming the game.

The gear is so hard to get in that game, there is exactly “1” person on the entire server that have the best pvp weapon when the game released. The fraction of people that killed all the raid boss is 0.1% on the entire server. Only 5% of the people even get the best pvp gear in the game, because the developer keep making new tier of armor when other people get close.

I never reach max level in another game, and I’m already the top 10 highest level player on the entire server.

I hope you get the point. Because in other game seeing all the content, and getting the best gear or max level is so freaking hard very few on the server even reach that goal. And when people get close, you know what happened, new level cap, new tier of armor, and new dungeon/raid.

You can count me as one of the ones who wants more of an end-game. We have guild challenges that we can complete successfully once a week, and WvW grinding, and dungeons that rarely drop anything useful. All that is nice, depending on your play style, but I would hope there’s more in the works for us.

End game content may not be for everyone, but I believe it should be there for those who want it. I don’t believe you’ll lose any casual players, because casual players will be busy doing their own thing.

There’s a lot to do in this game, but for those who want to grab a group of players from the guild and stomp through a raid of sorts, I think that option should be there.

Anyone can zerg a temple with enough people, or plow their way through WvW. When you take the element of zerging out of the equation, though, you no longer have loot pinatas. You have a distinct challenge. I think that’s what many of us want.

Valektra.9356:

There is none. End of topic.

It may not have the end game you prefer, but there’s definitely end game (as evidenced by the millions of people that keep logging in after they hit 80)

Fractals, 43 dungeon paths, keg brawl, World vs. World, crafting, 3000 dynamic events, a host of armor and weapon skins to get, Guild Missions, legendary weapons, costume brawl, jumping puzzles, achievements and titles, new content each month, Super Adventure Box, 26 zones that you never outlevel, insta-boost any toon to 80 with all the best gear for PvP, etc.

What makes the endgame in this game so attractive is that the content doesn’t become obsolete. So while you’re left with only a couple dungeons and a raid or two in that other game, here you get the entire game. Forever. With more added every month.

For me progression is about challenge and character development; one must be tied to the other. There shouldn’ t be any challenge that does not lead to character progression and the rewards should be equivalent to the effort applied.

Currently; my character is not developing. Do they have a legendary? No.
Do I have every ascended ring, trinket or bauble. No.

Why? The effort is ridiculous compared to the mundane level of reward. It’s simply not fun.

It’s not fun to run the most rewarding path over and over again because the others are so tedious. Our time has value. Especially the more casual player you might be. We “invest” in our characters and want to see them progress “efficiently.”

It’s not fun that the hardest content in the game actually rewards you less in some cases than the easier content.

If I do not undertake a challenge I do not want to be rewarded. I WANT to be forced to join an army to take down a giant… but I expect some form of renown or loot associated with the task.

It’s not fun to spend hundreds upon hundreds of gold in a raffle to get a legendary sword. There are NO epic histories; written epics; oscar award winning movies about “winning” Excaliber from a slot machine. If anything you ahve chosen perhaps the most mundane method to give out what should be the a character defining “legendary” weapon.

Where is the personal quest to get your class defining weapon? Hell I had 40 people camping spawns in EQ just to be there when I got my cleric epic. They rejoiced in my achievement as much as I did? Why? BECAUSE IT WAS EPIC not frigg’n random number generated.

Skins, if you like how you look; are not a reward. I started playing MMOs like UO and EQ because I didn’t like platform jumpy games. I want more “explore a fanstasy universe and dominate it under my righteous boot while slaying the dragon and saving the world” not frigg’n bauble bubbles or <bling> you poked 500 unicorn achievements.

Defending a tower against a 3 day siege of an orc host is an achievement; not salvaging 1000 undershirts. My kid takes out the trash every week; he’s done it a thousand times; he isn’t getting a medal on his chest.

Turn to literature and cinema for inspiration. Put the legendary back into the game. Make us give a kitten about losing cities due to the invading source. Let us see people thrown into slavery; make green areas turn black with corruption. Make mobs flooding into zones hurt movement and can only be sequestered due to military victory;

Make NPCs cheer the name of the victors or give them temporary rewards; +10% resale at vendors or free trade at the AH for 24 hours. Give real coin for reward like a gold piece after a long battle.

Instead you give us a completely ignorable “living story” which does nothing more than frustrate you when you bounce you across the map because some.. noone gives kitten to kill periscope has popped up.

Give us content not “noise”

Progression is a weak illusion propagandized by subscription fee games where you don’t actually progress, your gear does. You don’t get better, you get better gear.

That type of subscription model gates that gear behind horrifically teensy drop rates on ginormous loot tables which is further gated behind reputation or daily grinds.

It’s an awful way to play an MMO. Boring as sin.

Even if you remove gear progression, you should have some type of pregression which is challenging. Or include some sort of competitiveness for repetive content.

And much of the gear progression is really content lock so you can’t skip content.

Maybe a expanding of the leaderboard could solve some of the problem.

clay.7849:

The original GW1 endgame was designed to be PvP. It changed quite a bit as the game went on however.

I was never bored in GW1 due to a lot of factors:

1. PvP
2. Elite Skill Hunting
3. Leveling alts
4. Finding new places and ways to farm for awesome gear <—- this was something I really miss. Solo FoW, solo ice imps for IDS, solo UW, etc. There were so many interesting places to farm and interesting skills and ways to do it. Some of them were really challenging and fun each time you did it.
5. Helping guildies run missions.
6. Randomly helping PUGS. (I monked and loved helping to keep noobs alive)
7. Just enjoying the scenery. GW2 is pretty and beautiful but you just can’t get lost like you could in GW1. And I still think GW1 had a magical feeling about it’s geography.
8. Running. Running was a skill all on its own. Ask old Droks runners how much fun they had.
9. Theory and build crafting. I could do it for hours just to get owned and start all over.
10. Not really designed as real PvP, but random arenas was just a blast. It was terribly imbalanced and full of whining and flaming. But it was great.

I could actually go on, but ill stop at this.

Great post, totally agree.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Morphisor.7290:

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

I like how you say “once you got map completion the only thing left is….” and then proceed to name four different activities that can be done indefinitely.

Take any other MMO, and tell me, how amazingly many things there are to do in it after you reach max level and max gear.

Oh, right.

That is the thing. In other mmorpg I never see all the content, I never killed all boss in the game, I never get maxed my gear, some of which I never even reach max level. And I’m a game addicted that play way too much video game.

I’m in no way saying GW2 design is bad. I’m just saying this game is designed to be much more casual. Which is a good and bad thing depend how you look at it.

How many of those MMO did you play at launch? Because you could kill and do everything in games like Rift in a couple of months after launch EASILY. Even WoW when it launched, you could have done all the content in a couple of months.

Content takes time to produce. If you play an MMO with years behind it, you’ll have more to do. It’s simple logic.

I dont’ like to talk about other games because it is like marketing for them. Let me put it this way without naming the game.

The gear is so hard to get in that game, there is exactly “1” person on the entire server that have the best pvp weapon when the game released. The fraction of people that killed all the raid boss is 0.1% on the entire server. Only 5% of the people even get the best pvp gear in the game, because the developer keep making new tier of armor when other people get close.

I never reach max level in another game, and I’m already the top 10 highest level player on the entire server.

I hope you get the point. Because in other game seeing all the content, and getting the best gear or max level is so freaking hard very few on the server even reach that goal. And when people get close, you know what happened, new level cap, new tier of armor, and new dungeon/raid.

You should definitely play that other game. Because I don’t see where it pays for a developer to make content so hard that most people will never see it. It seems a shame. I’d want to see it, and I’m not going to kill myself to do it. Getting through the three paths of Arah, or DOA in Guild Wars 1, or the Deep and Urgoz’s Warren in Guild Wars 1 were about as hard as I want to get. Worse than that, I’m not interested in.

The problem is, most of the playerbase probably wouldn’t be either, because they’d have no chance of seeing it.

That’s why I like what Anet did with the Fractals. Competitive guys can work their way up to high level fractals, guys like me can enjoy them in easier modes, for lesser rewards. I got to see the fractals. I’m not worried about seeing them at level 40 plus. It’s extremely likely, I’ll never do a fractal higher than level 20.

Karizee.8076:

Progression is a weak illusion propagandized by subscription fee games where you don’t actually progress, your gear does. You don’t get better, you get better gear.

That type of subscription model gates that gear behind horrifically teensy drop rates on ginormous loot tables which is further gated behind reputation or daily grinds.

It’s an awful way to play an MMO. Boring as sin.

I agree with this. I don’t want my character to be a coat rack for greatness. I want to be great myself. There’s a big difference between these two states of play.

Karizee.8076:

Valektra.9356:

There is none. End of topic.

It may not have the end game you prefer, but there’s definitely end game (as evidenced by the millions of people that keep logging in after they hit 80)

Fractals, 43 dungeon paths, keg brawl, World vs. World, crafting, 3000 dynamic events, a host of armor and weapon skins to get, Guild Missions, legendary weapons, costume brawl, jumping puzzles, achievements and titles, new content each month, Super Adventure Box, 26 zones that you never outlevel, insta-boost any toon to 80 with all the best gear for PvP, etc.

What makes the endgame in this game so attractive is that the content doesn’t become obsolete. So while you’re left with only a couple dungeons and a raid or two in that other game, here you get the entire game. Forever. With more added every month.

The end game is optional insane grinding for cosmetic skins, grinding fractals for ascended gear, grinding dailies, wvw where the server with the biggest Zerg wins and doing the lower level content over and over. End game in other games is raiding. Both can be very boring or fun depending on the player.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Morphisor.7290:

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

I like how you say “once you got map completion the only thing left is….” and then proceed to name four different activities that can be done indefinitely.

Take any other MMO, and tell me, how amazingly many things there are to do in it after you reach max level and max gear.

Oh, right.

That is the thing. In other mmorpg I never see all the content, I never killed all boss in the game, I never get maxed my gear, some of which I never even reach max level. And I’m a game addicted that play way too much video game.

I’m in no way saying GW2 design is bad. I’m just saying this game is designed to be much more casual. Which is a good and bad thing depend how you look at it.

How many of those MMO did you play at launch? Because you could kill and do everything in games like Rift in a couple of months after launch EASILY. Even WoW when it launched, you could have done all the content in a couple of months.

Content takes time to produce. If you play an MMO with years behind it, you’ll have more to do. It’s simple logic.

Come on, Vayne, you’re completely abandoning intellectual honesty with this post. To say you could complete WoW heroic raids “in a couple of months” couldn’t be any further from the truth.

If you want to argue your point, that’s fine, but don’t make crap up like that.

I’m thinking about games at launch. WoW didn’t have any heroic raids and launch and I’m pretty sure they didn’t have them 9 months into the game’s life cycle. What’s truly disingenuous is comparing the content of an 8 year old game to the content of a 9 month old game.

I think we should compare the 2 games are 9 months old. Are you sincerely saying WoW had more content, or it took longer to complete than what Guild Wars 2 has?

Edit: While we’re on the topic, why don’t you explain to all the non-wow players what lockouts are, and why it takes so long to beat that content.

clay.7849:

7. Just enjoying the scenery. GW2 is pretty and beautiful but you just can’t get lost like you could in GW1. And I still think GW1 had a magical feeling about it’s geography.

Wait what?

How did you get lost in GW1 with it being on rails like it was?

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Morphisor.7290:

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

I like how you say “once you got map completion the only thing left is….” and then proceed to name four different activities that can be done indefinitely.

Take any other MMO, and tell me, how amazingly many things there are to do in it after you reach max level and max gear.

Oh, right.

That is the thing. In other mmorpg I never see all the content, I never killed all boss in the game, I never get maxed my gear, some of which I never even reach max level. And I’m a game addicted that play way too much video game.

I’m in no way saying GW2 design is bad. I’m just saying this game is designed to be much more casual. Which is a good and bad thing depend how you look at it.

How many of those MMO did you play at launch? Because you could kill and do everything in games like Rift in a couple of months after launch EASILY. Even WoW when it launched, you could have done all the content in a couple of months.

Content takes time to produce. If you play an MMO with years behind it, you’ll have more to do. It’s simple logic.

Come on, Vayne, you’re completely abandoning intellectual honesty with this post. To say you could complete WoW heroic raids “in a couple of months” couldn’t be any further from the truth.

If you want to argue your point, that’s fine, but don’t make crap up like that.

I’m thinking about games at launch. WoW didn’t have any heroic raids and launch and I’m pretty sure they didn’t have them 9 months into the game’s life cycle. What’s truly disingenuous is comparing the content of an 8 year old game to the content of a 9 month old game.

I think we should compare the 2 games are 9 months old. Are you sincerely saying WoW had more content, or it took longer to complete than what Guild Wars 2 has?

Man, you’re fast.

I deleted the post because I misunderstood what you were saying. Didn’t realize at first you meant when WoW came out originally.

:)

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Morphisor.7290:

BlackhawkSOM.6401:

I really hate it when people say ohh you can make your own end game—-seriously stfu..
this game aint no sand box.

Reason this game lacks real end game because there is just lack of things to do. Once you hit lvl 80 and get map completion the only thing left is spvp…wvw..fractals..farm for legendary/exotics(cof p1).

Thats what most people do anyway: Spvp was supposed to be the ultimate end game and has a lot of potential but with 8 months passing and no significant content(game modes, working tourny system, pvp specifc skins ect) its dying very fast.

I like how you say “once you got map completion the only thing left is….” and then proceed to name four different activities that can be done indefinitely.

Take any other MMO, and tell me, how amazingly many things there are to do in it after you reach max level and max gear.

Oh, right.

That is the thing. In other mmorpg I never see all the content, I never killed all boss in the game, I never get maxed my gear, some of which I never even reach max level. And I’m a game addicted that play way too much video game.

I’m in no way saying GW2 design is bad. I’m just saying this game is designed to be much more casual. Which is a good and bad thing depend how you look at it.

How many of those MMO did you play at launch? Because you could kill and do everything in games like Rift in a couple of months after launch EASILY. Even WoW when it launched, you could have done all the content in a couple of months.

Content takes time to produce. If you play an MMO with years behind it, you’ll have more to do. It’s simple logic.

Come on, Vayne, you’re completely abandoning intellectual honesty with this post. To say you could complete WoW heroic raids “in a couple of months” couldn’t be any further from the truth.

If you want to argue your point, that’s fine, but don’t make crap up like that.

I’m thinking about games at launch. WoW didn’t have any heroic raids and launch and I’m pretty sure they didn’t have them 9 months into the game’s life cycle. What’s truly disingenuous is comparing the content of an 8 year old game to the content of a 9 month old game.

I think we should compare the 2 games are 9 months old. Are you sincerely saying WoW had more content, or it took longer to complete than what Guild Wars 2 has?

Man, you’re fast.

I deleted the post because I misunderstood what you were saying. Didn’t realize at first you meant when WoW came out originally.

:)

After writing and editing for a living for more than a decade, you learn to organize thoughts fast and type fast too. Deadlines suck. lol

Endgame, huh?

I’m pretty new to MMOs, with GW2 being only my second one. On the other hand, I have played many RPGs and generally more games than is healthy for a 22-year-old.

However, topics about “endgame” and the various points raised within don’t resonate with me as an MMORPG player. They resonate with the me as a “gamer”, a person who plays videogames.

People talk about “endgame” and use words like “progression”. To me, that sounds strange. As someone else pointed out, you’re not progressing as person, the developers are just altering the mold you’re playing in. You can’t even argue that the “endgame gear” is tied with your mastery of the game, as your skills within the game, namely knowledge and reflexes, are not tied to the gear, they’re tied to you as a person and the time you’ve spent with the specific set of rules.

Another thing is, why are you playing to “progress”? Is it tied to some kind of measure of self-worth? That you’re worth more as a person if you spend your free time “progressing”? Or is it that you find increasing numbers fun? Sadly, actually measuring your mastery of a videogame would be a boring task that is best left to the relevant scientists.

I’m not really a stranger to grinding for progression either, I’ve spent several hours in the past few days killing a total of 69 Grand Dragons in Final Fantasy IX to get Freya’s Dragon’s Crest to hit for 9,999 damage, all while also getting a Golden Chocobo, stealing like a boss and gathering a total of 80-something frogs for Quina. Note that pretty much all of those activities were dull. I found myself cursing when the frogs kept running away or when I found a treasure as the timer on Hot and Cold hit 0:00. Still, I did it. I’ve also spent over 100 hours doing similar things in each of the following:

• Kingdom Hearts (I actually started a project to get to level 100 on Destiny’s Island)
• Kingdom Hearts II
• Final Fantasy VII
• Final Fantasy VIII
• Final Fantasy X (300+ hours played)
• Final Fantasy XII
• Final Fantasy XIII
• Final Fantasy XIII-2

However, I did not do it to progress. I did not do it because it had a meaning. I did it because I loved the worlds. The worlds that had those characters I like, the characters I hated. The worlds that had those musics I could listen to hours on end. The worlds that remind me of someone interrupting me or commenting on how boring something looks.

To some, “progression” is about “skill”. However, from what I’ve seen on these forums, majority of the people are clearly not “skilled”. They might be able to do all the dungeons, they might have a ridiculously high PvP rank, a bunch of legendaries, could do the Mad King’s jumping puzzle blindfolded with their toes. Still, they do not display qualities of mastery. And further, what meaning is there in being “skilled” in a set of rules that someone else put forth?

I will admit, some of the most fun times I’ve had with games were in settings where you could argue for “progression by skill”. I spent hundreds of hours playing Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater nearly 10 years ago. Similarly, I spent hundreds of hours playing and researching in Diablo II: Lord of Destruction on my PvP barbarian.

To me, “the endgame” doesn’t exist. I don’t believe that I can ever truly experience and know everything there is to know about a game. And that’s not even getting into the roleplaying aspect. I would love to look at certain characters and analyze their philosophies, ponder why they did what they did, trying to understand the religion set within a game.

Crap, that became a lot longer than I figured. Grats to anyone who actually reads all of that.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

7. Just enjoying the scenery. GW2 is pretty and beautiful but you just can’t get lost like you could in GW1. And I still think GW1 had a magical feeling about it’s geography.

Wait what?

How did you get lost in GW1 with it being on rails like it was?

There were a large number of areas you never entered if you just did the story missions. Lots of them were rewarding to explore: unique bosses with a chance to drop weapons with rare skins, beautiful (for the time) landscapes (waterfall in The Falls, the Lonely Vigil in the Arid Sea, and so on), unique/elite skills to hunt and some interesting quests.

Taking a party out into the unknown was probably my favorite part of the game. For example, I was absolutely stunned when I happened upon the connection between The Crystal Desert and The Desolation.

This is relevant to the topic: all this enjoyment took place long after I had reached max level, finished the game and collected a good deal of cosmetic gear. I don’t get the same sense of exploration in GW2; I’ve stopped completionist at 71% with little interest in fully exploring the remaining zones.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

7. Just enjoying the scenery. GW2 is pretty and beautiful but you just can’t get lost like you could in GW1. And I still think GW1 had a magical feeling about it’s geography.

Wait what?

How did you get lost in GW1 with it being on rails like it was?

There were a large number of areas you never entered if you just did the story missions. Lots of them were rewarding to explore: unique bosses with a chance to drop weapons with rare skins, beautiful (for the time) landscapes (waterfall in The Falls, the Lonely Vigil in the Arid Sea, and so on), unique/elite skills to hunt and some interesting quests.

Taking a party out into the unknown was probably my favorite part of the game. For example, I was absolutely stunned when I happened upon the connection between The Crystal Desert and The Desolation.

This is relevant to the topic: all this enjoyment took place long after I had reached max level, finished the game and collected a good deal of cosmetic gear. I don’t get the same sense of exploration in GW2; I’ve stopped completionist at 71% with little interest in fully exploring the remaining zones.

This is completely correct. If you just followed the story line, you missed more than half of Guild Wars 1. And if you just do map completion you miss a big part of Guild Wars 2.

On topic: I’m enjoying Guild Wars 2 at max level in much the same way I enjoyed Guild Wars 1. And I did enjoy making and trying builds in Guild Wars 1, but the game was much more to me. They obviously left out the build wars aspect of Guild Wars 1 in Guild Wars 2 (for good reason in my opinion), but they did capture some of the exploration aspect, which is part of my end game.

I’m always finding and seeing things I never saw before. The difference for me is how often you go to a wiki to find things, and how often you find things by exploring. Turn off you map markers. Explore the game without knowing where vistas and POIs are. Make the game less about a checklist and more like an old-fashioned RPG. Those who have played those games will have a unique end game that’ll last a long, long time.

clay.7849:

The original GW1 endgame was designed to be PvP. It changed quite a bit as the game went on however.

I was never bored in GW1 due to a lot of factors:

1. PvP
2. Elite Skill Hunting
3. Leveling alts
4. Finding new places and ways to farm for awesome gear <—- this was something I really miss. Solo FoW, solo ice imps for IDS, solo UW, etc. There were so many interesting places to farm and interesting skills and ways to do it. Some of them were really challenging and fun each time you did it.
5. Helping guildies run missions.
6. Randomly helping PUGS. (I monked and loved helping to keep noobs alive)
7. Just enjoying the scenery. GW2 is pretty and beautiful but you just can’t get lost like you could in GW1. And I still think GW1 had a magical feeling about it’s geography.
8. Running. Running was a skill all on its own. Ask old Droks runners how much fun they had.
9. Theory and build crafting. I could do it for hours just to get owned and start all over.
10. Not really designed as real PvP, but random arenas was just a blast. It was terribly imbalanced and full of whining and flaming. But it was great.

I could actually go on, but ill stop at this.

Pvp actually worked as an end game which is crazy to think about in an MMO… GvG, AB an HA were just THAT good. And for being such a pvp eccentric game the pve was just as fun, vanquishing, skill capping, ferrying/running and dungeons were enough to keep me happy and of course build crafting. I would agree that farming was also enjoyable, whereas I actually feel the grind in GW2.

It’s crazy to think about, we hardly had any end-game in GW1 but it was so enjoyable we kept ourselves occupied with what we had and people still do to this day, me included. I can get bored of GW2 quite fast on some days.. some times I can’t even muster the strength to log in and do my daily. I think they took some serious wrong turns on design, I think if a game is good you don’t need to throw a ton of content at your players.

You just need to make what content you have good enough to keep players using it without getting bored. It’s never a good design to release a few raids or dungeons and not care enough to have it be a very special experience because you’re already planning on your next content release. Put some feel into it, and most importantly give GW1 vets something to drool over in this game… ANYTHING.

Olba.5376:

Endgame, huh?

I’m pretty new to MMOs, with GW2 being only my second one. On the other hand, I have played many RPGs and generally more games than is healthy for a 22-year-old.

However, topics about “endgame” and the various points raised within don’t resonate with me as an MMORPG player…

I actually read all of that, I loved it. This is basically how I feel about most of this stuff. I’m glad you wrote that out for me to read. It was a pleasure.

Vayne.8563:

You should definitely play that other game. Because I don’t see where it pays for a developer to make content so hard that most people will never see it.

I didn’t say games should be designed that way.

All I said is in other game content is designed to be much more difficult and goals are designed to take much longer time to achieve.

I’m not saying it is how it should be. So take it as how it is.

Vayne.8563:

I play and enjoy this game BECAUSE it has no “end game”. People who like and play this game are people who make their own end game. They decide what they enjoy and they do it. The game offers a variety of experiences for different types of players.

That describes a LOT of regular GW2 players I know.

I’m pretty surprised day after day that so many people feel this game needs to be WoW. If they like WoW so much… go play that.

I have played heaps of MMO’s before and have started to get sick of the game model. The thing I love about this game (that I only realised last night) is that after coming back from my 5 month break and going back to my 41 Mesmer I didn’t have to make money, craft, raid, group up etc. I wasn’t forced to do anything, I could PvP, WvW, quest, whatever the kitten I wanted to do. This is the first ever “MMO” I have played that feels like this, and I have fallen in love with the game all over again for a different reason.

Who cares if people leave, they can come back whenever they want and do whatever content they want when they get here. It’s absolutely amazing.

Kichwas.7152:

Vayne.8563:

I play and enjoy this game BECAUSE it has no “end game”. People who like and play this game are people who make their own end game. They decide what they enjoy and they do it. The game offers a variety of experiences for different types of players.

That describes a LOT of regular GW2 players I know.

I’m pretty surprised day after day that so many people feel this game needs to be WoW. If they like WoW so much… go play that.

I’m not sure what the “no end game” is suppose to mean. How is GW2 different from other standard themepark beside it is “much more casual”. And goals are much easier to achieve.

GW2 isn’t exactly a sandbox game. Which just make the find your own end game weird.

GW2 is just a much more casual games. And it is great that the market have a game like that.

No, but if you think about theme park games like an actual theme park it makes sense. Some people go to Disney World to ride Space Mountain and Flash Mountain. They wait in long queues for this experience. I prefer Epcot center and hardly ever have a long queue for the stuff I like.

In fact, that’s what this game is doing. Offering different things to different groups of people, like a true theme park. Not one thing for one group while ignoring everyone else.

Which is why some many of us who feel disenfranchised with other MMOs like Guild Wars 2.

Vayne.8563:

In fact, that’s what this game is doing. Offering different things to different groups of people, like a true theme park. Not one thing for one group while ignoring everyone else.

You lost me there. I’m not sure why you think other game isn’t doing exactly what GW2 is doing by offering different things for different groups of people.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

In fact, that’s what this game is doing. Offering different things to different groups of people, like a true theme park. Not one thing for one group while ignoring everyone else.

You lost me there. I’m not sure why you think other game isn’t doing exactly what GW2 is doing by offering different things for different groups of people.

Okay I played Rift at launch (and I’ve repeated this story often enough, so sorry about this everyone). In Rift, you had one single epic quest chain that ran through every dungeon and eventually a raid. That was the only epic quest chain in the game.

The PvP at launch was pretty unbalanced, and not playable if you didn’t start playing from launch, because everyone was leveled and you weren’t. A rank 1 guy could do nothing but die, no matter how good you were. That left PvE.

The only thing Rift really offered in PVe was 3 end zones, which if you did dungeon at all, became obsolete. There was no downleveling. You also had rifts and zone wide events. Rifts were amazingly repetitive, much worse than DEs are, and on top of that, the reward for Rifts was planarite, which was completely useless at end game. I kept buying the squirrel minipets, because I kept hitting the planarite cap.

That left one thing basically to do at end game for a PVe’er. Which was zone wide events, which gave the same rewards generally as Rifts. When I played, everyone basically ignored them and they couldn’t be soloed. So they’d fail. You couldn’t do them at all. You couldn’t go back to early zones, because nothing would even attack you. It was pointless.

The game literally funneled you into doing dungeons. There was very little content compared to Guild Wars 2 at launch and even six months later. All they realliy gave you was a succession of daily quests, that’s it.

Not 1500 events you could go back to. Nothing like WvW. A very very imbalanced PvP which you couldn’t do if you didn’t live there to grind up levels, or dungeons and raids…the only way to finish the only epic quest in the game.

People complained and eventually, down the road, things were added. It might be a very different game now, but at launch, the game was designed for people who did dungeons and raided. And people left in droves.

I wasn’t the only person who felt disenfranchised.

In GW2 you have not reached endgame until:

You have an 80 for each of the 8 professions and each of the 5 races.
You have 400 in all 8 crafts.
You have 100% World exploration.
You have ALL of the armor sets.
You have done every path of every dungeon.
You have done ALL of the non-instanced hidden dungeons.
You have completed every Fractal.
You’ve done every sPvP map.
You’ve explored every WvWvW map.
You’ve fought against every server in WvW.
You’ve filled in the full achievement bar.

- Once you do at least that, plus the things I’ve missed… Then start talking about Endgame…

Vayne.8563:

That left one thing basically to do at end game for a PVe’er. Which was zone wide events, which gave the same rewards generally as Rifts. When I played, everyone basically ignored them and they couldn’t be soloed. So they’d fail. You couldn’t do them at all. You couldn’t go back to early zones, because nothing would even attack you. It was pointless.

They didn’t ignore anyone. They just did a “bad” job “by your standard”.

That is quite different from what you try to convey before.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

That left one thing basically to do at end game for a PVe’er. Which was zone wide events, which gave the same rewards generally as Rifts. When I played, everyone basically ignored them and they couldn’t be soloed. So they’d fail. You couldn’t do them at all. You couldn’t go back to early zones, because nothing would even attack you. It was pointless.

They didn’t ignore anyone. They just did a “bad” job “by your standard”.

That is quite different from what you try to convey before.

By my standard and by the standards of lots of others. I was like Clay on those forums. I was the guy who thought the game might have a city that looked like more than a quest hub. Or it might have something to do other than dungeons. Or it wouldn’t put a raid at the end of the only epic quest line in the game.

That’s why I tolerate the guys who bash me all the time for being a fan boy. I was in their shoes on the Rift forums, along with a lot of other people. However, I was nicer to the fan bois than some people on these forums.

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

That left one thing basically to do at end game for a PVe’er. Which was zone wide events, which gave the same rewards generally as Rifts. When I played, everyone basically ignored them and they couldn’t be soloed. So they’d fail. You couldn’t do them at all. You couldn’t go back to early zones, because nothing would even attack you. It was pointless.

They didn’t ignore anyone. They just did a “bad” job “by your standard”.

That is quite different from what you try to convey before.

By my standard and by the standards of lots of others. I was like Clay on those forums. I was the guy who thought the game might have a city that looked like more than a quest hub. Or it might have something to do other than dungeons. Or it wouldn’t put a raid at the end of the only epic quest line in the game.

That’s why I tolerate the guys who bash me all the time for being a fan boy. I was in their shoes on the Rift forums, along with a lot of other people. However, I was nicer to the fan bois than some people on these forums.

Tolerate? Lol!

Drew.1865:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

That left one thing basically to do at end game for a PVe’er. Which was zone wide events, which gave the same rewards generally as Rifts. When I played, everyone basically ignored them and they couldn’t be soloed. So they’d fail. You couldn’t do them at all. You couldn’t go back to early zones, because nothing would even attack you. It was pointless.

They didn’t ignore anyone. They just did a “bad” job “by your standard”.

That is quite different from what you try to convey before.

By my standard and by the standards of lots of others. I was like Clay on those forums. I was the guy who thought the game might have a city that looked like more than a quest hub. Or it might have something to do other than dungeons. Or it wouldn’t put a raid at the end of the only epic quest line in the game.

That’s why I tolerate the guys who bash me all the time for being a fan boy. I was in their shoes on the Rift forums, along with a lot of other people. However, I was nicer to the fan bois than some people on these forums.

Tolerate? Lol!

I’m very tolerant of you guys. I don’t ever report you, even when you say things that are clearly derogatory. That’s pretty tolerant. I don’t even mind. I just figure it’s payback for stuff I said on the Rift forums. lol

Vayne.8563:

Drew.1865:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

That left one thing basically to do at end game for a PVe’er. Which was zone wide events, which gave the same rewards generally as Rifts. When I played, everyone basically ignored them and they couldn’t be soloed. So they’d fail. You couldn’t do them at all. You couldn’t go back to early zones, because nothing would even attack you. It was pointless.

They didn’t ignore anyone. They just did a “bad” job “by your standard”.

That is quite different from what you try to convey before.

By my standard and by the standards of lots of others. I was like Clay on those forums. I was the guy who thought the game might have a city that looked like more than a quest hub. Or it might have something to do other than dungeons. Or it wouldn’t put a raid at the end of the only epic quest line in the game.

That’s why I tolerate the guys who bash me all the time for being a fan boy. I was in their shoes on the Rift forums, along with a lot of other people. However, I was nicer to the fan bois than some people on these forums.

Tolerate? Lol!

I’m very tolerant of you guys. I don’t ever report you, even when you say things that are clearly derogatory. That’s pretty tolerant. I don’t even mind. I just figure it’s payback for stuff I said on the Rift forums. lol

I only report people who twist people’s words around and use subtle word play to insult them.

Endgame in the way most people use it is asking for raids simply because most people grew up on WoW by now, and all you have there is raidgame or pvp-point grind.

I wish they would add more small explorable open world dungeons with a chest at the end. Not a pure jumping puzzle but a mix of real puzzle elements (pressure plates, switches, trapdoors etc) with challenging combat, time pressure due to respawns and some precarious jumping shortcuts. Put a nice chest at the end and voila.

I wish they would add different additional rare loot by region (Ascalon, Kryta, etc) so it actually matters a bit in which part of the world you are (could be equipment with skins that only drop there, region-appropriate mini pets, etc).

GW1 actually had specific rare drop skins you could farm for a long time, something GW2 has discarded in favor of the WoW token grind. Is that better or not, I dont know. Endgame is certainly lacking something.

They’ have other options for cosmetic rewards besides what they use currently, too (item skins is all they do cosmetics-wise). There arent any alternate visual skill effects you can acquire through playing, for example.

It’s been well over a year since I played that other game, and people in my office are thinking about doing a lan party next weekend using the free trial. So I fugured ‘what the heck’ and got it all set up. Was kinda fun re-learning the addons I used and how I had it set up. The new zone is kinda cool. But holy crap, I can’t play that game any more. Did you know you pretty much have to stand still and let the mobs beat on you while you fight?! The cartoon graphics are just inferior. And the hand-holding via quest chains is really restrictive.

GW2 is less than a year old, and already has more to do that that game after 2 years. I actually do think ANet will put in some better max-level content. Notice I didn’t say “endgame”. That is just an inappropriate label for GW2. End game starts at level 1 here.