Guild Wars 2

hello next page. y u no work?

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Behellagh.1468:

With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

I don’t see your interpretation there. I see “Hey we once again rethought the whole character leveling thing while adding in the mastery and specialization systems so we are redoing traits yet again.”

Yes, they are re-doing traits, and keep speaking about this new system in how it will relate to the the new things being dropped with the xpac. Not, “Hey, here is the new trait system we have reworked, lets talk about IT”, but rather “Hey we are reworking the trait system so it works better with masteries, specializations, etc and we’ll talk about it at some point…soon…ish. But in the meantime, talk about traits amongst yourselves even though we still have yet to give you anything of substance other than its coming soon.” Whatever “it” may be.

There has been literally nothing for us to even discuss in here. Anything and everything we might say is 100% based upon whatever crazy thing we can come up with and the ONLY framework we have right now is the info on masteries which is part of the xpac. That’s literally it. April of 2014, and to date all we have to even “sink our teeth into” information wise is that the new “simpler” system will mesh better with something in a paid expansion. Somehow.

But they haven’t said that interpretation anywhere. Full Colin quote.

Hey folks,

Now that the HOT is out of the bag, we’re able to update this thread with more details. With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

Thank you for all your passionate feedback on this topic – it not only helped our dev team lead to this decision, but has played a large role in helping us define how to build our exciting new account based mastery system for end-game progression in PvE as well.

Where oh where does it say anything that you are saying? Only says “more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future”. If we look at the trends, that stuff is being shifted from per player to per account (dyes, minis, skins, WvW and PvP tracks) and that masteries will be account based maybe an argument can be made for account wide unlock on traits and if we are very lucky, the whole NPE post 1st character leveling locks being unlocked earlier or always.

Again I’m reading that post on face value. They’ve rethought about character progression and the trait changes will mesh with this new idea/philosophy, but that doesn’t mean that they are all one big system.

Behellagh.1468:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Behellagh.1468:

With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

I don’t see your interpretation there. I see “Hey we once again rethought the whole character leveling thing while adding in the mastery and specialization systems so we are redoing traits yet again.”

Yes, they are re-doing traits, and keep speaking about this new system in how it will relate to the the new things being dropped with the xpac. Not, “Hey, here is the new trait system we have reworked, lets talk about IT”, but rather “Hey we are reworking the trait system so it works better with masteries, specializations, etc and we’ll talk about it at some point…soon…ish. But in the meantime, talk about traits amongst yourselves even though we still have yet to give you anything of substance other than its coming soon.” Whatever “it” may be.

There has been literally nothing for us to even discuss in here. Anything and everything we might say is 100% based upon whatever crazy thing we can come up with and the ONLY framework we have right now is the info on masteries which is part of the xpac. That’s literally it. April of 2014, and to date all we have to even “sink our teeth into” information wise is that the new “simpler” system will mesh better with something in a paid expansion. Somehow.

But they haven’t said that interpretation anywhere. Full Colin quote.

Hey folks,

Now that the HOT is out of the bag, we’re able to update this thread with more details. With the introduction of the new account based mastery system for end-game progression and growth in PvE, we’ll also be re-evaluating our other systems of character progression to ensure they match our over-all pillars and goals for Gw2.

In doing so: we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

Thank you for all your passionate feedback on this topic – it not only helped our dev team lead to this decision, but has played a large role in helping us define how to build our exciting new account based mastery system for end-game progression in PvE as well.

Where oh where does it say anything that you are saying? Only says “more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future”. If we look at the trends, that stuff is being shifted from per player to per account (dyes, minis, skins, WvW and PvP tracks) and that masteries will be account based maybe an argument can be made for account wide unlock on traits and if we are very lucky, the whole NPE post 1st character leveling locks being unlocked earlier or always.

Again I’m reading that post on face value. They’ve rethought about character progression and the trait changes will mesh with this new idea/philosophy, but that doesn’t mean that they are all one big system.

I see some implication of them being all one big system in this thread’s existence. We are not supposed to post off topic. This thread is titled for discussion of traits. No new details are available to be discussed about traits. An Anet employee specifically introduced the subject of masteries and such into a topic supposedly specifically about traits. If the topic is traits and the Anet employee comments to the efect of, “about those traits, lets talk about masteries,” without it being considered off topic, then there is an implication of them being intrinsicly linked.

I dont necessarily believe that this implication will come to fruition, but it is there.

@Ashen: Thank you. i was running out of ways to point out that this has been a cumulative message from Anet. Fact is, if traits or rather the new simplified system had nothing to do with how skills, specializations and masteries were set to work then they would not speak of them in the same category. If the link is simply “they are in the same game and have something to do with customizing your toons”, then they need to stop lumping them together and just give us info about the new traits system. Period. My stance still holds that if they have enough in the bag to start talking about it, then they have enough details to share with us, and if they don’t then they need to say as much now and not continue this carrot on a stick game that they’ve been pushing since last April.

Barring any details about this new simplified system they should at least be able to tell us (based on where they are now and where they see themselves going on this project) if their projected release of this new simple trait system is going to be before or after the release of HoT. Seriously, this is project management basics.

I’d like to suggest, again in this thread after its sister thread was shunted off to the nunnery, something in particular about Traits. Especially in line with the new cousin of the family “Masteries” being added?

Add an extra “Traits Experience” experience bar bound to one Trait line, and as you kill your XP gain is mirrored 1:1 into this bar. Keep Trait points earned at the same rate as currently – no need to try to work this up again. But the Traits Experience bar fills at an accelerated rate compared to level so you are earning “Trait Bonuses” at a faster rate than you level. (How much faster, I can’t calculate reliably, but 3:1 might not be a bad idea.)

You unlock Traits and now you choose one of the five Trait Lines to work on. When you have it “focused” you get automatically the Minor (first set) Trait Mastery active for you. You accumulate experience towards choosing one Major Trait Mastery (the ones with roman numerals on them) to unlock permanently. When you have Trait Points you can spend them in any line and get the benefits of anything you have unlocked (including the Minor Traits).

So what does this mean, stepping back from the mechanics? Your Guardian wants to learn a Virtues Major Trait (“Master of Consecrations”). To earn it you click to focus yourself earning TXP on the Virtues line; when it fills you can choose it from the menu to unlock permanently. Now you can switch to the Zeal line and you can keep “Master of Consecrations” active, as well as the statistic bonuses, from spending Trait Points on it.

Of course, you don’t want to grind experience? No problem! Take the current unlock system and blend it down a bit – Group Events offer a free unlock for the line you have equipped.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’d like to suggest, again in this thread after its sister thread was shunted off to the nunnery, something in particular about Traits. Especially in line with the new cousin of the family “Masteries” being added?

Add an extra “Traits Experience” experience bar bound to one Trait line, and as you kill your XP gain is mirrored 1:1 into this bar. Keep Trait points earned at the same rate as currently – no need to try to work this up again. But the Traits Experience bar fills at an accelerated rate compared to level so you are earning “Trait Bonuses” at a faster rate than you level. (How much faster, I can’t calculate reliably, but 3:1 might not be a bad idea.)

You unlock Traits and now you choose one of the five Trait Lines to work on. When you have it “focused” you get automatically the Minor (first set) Trait Mastery active for you. You accumulate experience towards choosing one Major Trait Mastery (the ones with roman numerals on them) to unlock permanently. When you have Trait Points you can spend them in any line and get the benefits of anything you have unlocked (including the Minor Traits).

So what does this mean, stepping back from the mechanics? Your Guardian wants to learn a Virtues Major Trait (“Master of Consecrations”). To earn it you click to focus yourself earning TXP on the Virtues line; when it fills you can choose it from the menu to unlock permanently. Now you can switch to the Zeal line and you can keep “Master of Consecrations” active, as well as the statistic bonuses, from spending Trait Points on it.

Of course, you don’t want to grind experience? No problem! Take the current unlock system and blend it down a bit – Group Events offer a free unlock for the line you have equipped.

Interesting, although I think it will play out more that experience you earn on TXP will just gather until you’ve unlocked respective tiers. That number will just correspond with how many points you can spend on major traits of the tiers you’ve unlocked so they can keep the limitations of a 6,6,2, etc type breakdown.

Not really sure that is the route they will take as that will eliminate the buying cost completely, and as others have stated, might lead to so hardcore rage from players that dropped some serious gold on the current system, but yeah…something like this might mesh well with the spirit of the new systems. Just not sure Anet is actually going that route. Not really sure of anything since, you know…no info.

True, merely thinking along my own lines and using what exists to know something is possible to code in the current game iteration.

Especially with how they described Masteries. I was thinking of saying there were Trait Levels earned from Skill Point Challenges on the map but I don’t know if that’d end up too clunky. Possibly would also splitting a new event type “Trait Event” or something . . .

I just wonder if they are literally scrapping everything we know about traits and just completely re-doing it. I have a strong feeling that might be the case too and if so it might be great or the most horrifying thing to see this year.

That describes almost anything they do: “It can either rock awesomesauce or be terribad”.

I don’t see a reason to constantly change the trait system. The first iteration was just fine, then it just got more annoying for people that made their characters after the infamous april 15th. I think having grandmaster traits work with the new system would’ve been fine though, those are meant to be special and you would need to work a bit to get them all over the world. But completing a zone you otherwise didn’t even step into to get a tier 1 trait you wouldn’t even use? No thanks.

Traveller.7496:

I don’t see a reason to constantly change the trait system. The first iteration was just fine, then it just got more annoying for people that made their characters after the infamous april 15th. I think having grandmaster traits work with the new system would’ve been fine though, those are meant to be special and you would need to work a bit to get them all over the world. But completing a zone you otherwise didn’t even step into to get a tier 1 trait you wouldn’t even use? No thanks.

The reason for the latest “rework” is because the screwed everything up so bad when they changed Traits last April.

Galphar.3901:

The reason for the latest “rework” is because the screwed everything up so bad when they changed Traits last April.

Or it could be because they finally found the Mordrem pods in the basement and chased off the impostors who made that unpopular change and can’t admit that happened.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

@Ashen: Thank you. i was running out of ways to point out that this has been a cumulative message from Anet. Fact is, if traits or rather the new simplified system had nothing to do with how skills, specializations and masteries were set to work then they would not speak of them in the same category. If the link is simply “they are in the same game and have something to do with customizing your toons”, then they need to stop lumping them together and just give us info about the new traits system. Period. My stance still holds that if they have enough in the bag to start talking about it, then they have enough details to share with us, and if they don’t then they need to say as much now and not continue this carrot on a stick game that they’ve been pushing since last April.

Barring any details about this new simplified system they should at least be able to tell us (based on where they are now and where they see themselves going on this project) if their projected release of this new simple trait system is going to be before or after the release of HoT. Seriously, this is project management basics.

I think they lumped them together because changing the level 80 mechanic to no longer gain normal xp, levels, and skill points and to instead be a mastery bar with mastery xp is a change that affects all systems in the game(skills, traits, and the new masteries). So when talking about their new system they gave us a small idea of how it will work. Which is at level 80 we will be able to start gaining xp for masteries and that the mastery xp bar will replace the level xp bar. This doesn’t imply anything except 2 things.

• That a way to get skill points is gone.
• That we start the grind for masteries at level 80.

There is no other implications and everything else is speculation. I have tons of ideas in my own head and even posted in the original trait thread what I thought when I read the new information. But even that is just speculation as there just isn’t enough information yet.

There are some big questions that have come up from the announcement that we no longer get skill points for leveling after level 80.

• Are skill points still going to be in the game?
• Will skill tomes still be in the game?
• What will skill points be used for?
• Are Skills going to stay the same and still require skill points?
• Are crafting recipes and mystic forge recipes still going to require skill points?
• Will Crafting and mystic forge recipes get updated to better reflect the new state of skill points?
• Is everything with skill points staying the same except for the removal of gaining skill points past level 80?

Edit to add:
One question that has come to my mind is
Is the trait system being removed from the game and we will have a linear specialization system in its place?

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

@Ashen: Thank you. i was running out of ways to point out that this has been a cumulative message from Anet. Fact is, if traits or rather the new simplified system had nothing to do with how skills, specializations and masteries were set to work then they would not speak of them in the same category. If the link is simply “they are in the same game and have something to do with customizing your toons”, then they need to stop lumping them together and just give us info about the new traits system. Period. My stance still holds that if they have enough in the bag to start talking about it, then they have enough details to share with us, and if they don’t then they need to say as much now and not continue this carrot on a stick game that they’ve been pushing since last April.

Barring any details about this new simplified system they should at least be able to tell us (based on where they are now and where they see themselves going on this project) if their projected release of this new simple trait system is going to be before or after the release of HoT. Seriously, this is project management basics.

I think they lumped them together because changing the level 80 mechanic to no longer gain normal xp, levels, and skill points and to instead be a mastery bar with mastery xp is a change that affects all systems in the game(skills, traits, and the new masteries). So when talking about their new system they gave us a small idea of how it will work. Which is at level 80 we will be able to start gaining xp for masteries and that the mastery xp bar will replace the level xp bar. This doesn’t imply anything except 2 things.

• That a way to get skill points is gone.
• That we start the grind for masteries at level 80.

There is no other implications and everything else is speculation. I have tons of ideas in my own head and even posted in the original trait thread what I thought when I read the new information. But even that is just speculation as there just isn’t enough information yet.

There are some big questions that have come up from the announcement that we no longer get skill points for leveling after level 80.

• Are skill points still going to be in the game?
• Will skill tomes still be in the game?
• What will skill points be used for?
• Are Skills going to stay the same and still require skill points?
• Are crafting recipes and mystic forge recipes still going to require skill points?
• Will Crafting and mystic forge recipes get updated to better reflect the new state of skill points?
• Is everything with skill points staying the same except for the removal of gaining skill points past level 80?

Traits were not inherently tied to the post 80 XP bar before. Focusing on masteries, skill points, etc as part of a discussion specifically about traits implies a connection. The strength of the connection may be up in the air, but the connection has been implied.

Of course the other option is that the decision to suggest masteries as a focus point in a discussion about traits could, in theory at least, have been an attempt to change the subject (which would be odd since the attempt to change the subject would then have been made in the very post where the subject was defined) or an attempt to troll. I do not believe wither of these alternate options.

Note that this thread is not titled, “Future Progression Systems,” it is titled to be about traits and specifically to make reference to a previous thread on the topic of the current trait system.

On the skill points questions, I’m sure that article said there were going to be other ways to acquire them through top level activities, so assuming they are staying. They seem a bit too integrated for them to be removed entirely.

Easiest solution to the trait issue, and most of the NPE issues:

Reduce level cap to 20.

level 1-2: You have the base attack for your land and underwater weapon, and your heal unlocked. Weapon skills are unlocked as they were on game release – by actually using them.

level 3: Your first Utility Skill gets unlocked.

level 4: Your second Utility Skill gets unlocked.

Level 5: Your third Utility Skill gets unlocked.

Level 6: You gain access to the Elite Skill slot.

Levels 7-20: You get 1 trait point per level.

Unlocking traits is still done on a one by one basis, as it is now, with the cost of individual trait manuals reduced greatly. (1 silver + 1 SP for adept, 2 silver + 2 SP for master, 3 silver + 3 SP for Grandmaster ) and with the related objectives carefully gone over for level appropriateness, and to remove some that are just silly (Map completion, giant grub, any others that pull you out of PvE.)

1-15 zones get rebalanced for 1-5
15-25 zones rebalanced for 5-10
25-40 zones rebalanced for 10-15
Every zone currently 40+ gets rebalanced for level 20 gameplay.

End result, easier max character, plus more potential for end-game play, and a reduction in the illogic of the current setup.

stale.9785:

Easiest solution to the trait issue, and most of the NPE issues:

Reduce level cap to 20.

You have a weird definition of “easy”.

Part of the problem with both the old system and the new one is that there are simply too many levels for what you get from obtaining them. This has some negative impact in other areas too, for example, the speed with which you outlevel gear.

At the end of the day, having 80 levels was kind of foolish. 40 would have made far more sense. It’s almost like they thought they’d make the leveling process more engaging by having a high number of levels that you advance through rapidly, but in reality that’s not how it works. It’s much more engaging to have a smaller number of levels that function as milestones, rather than having so many levels that give you so little that the whole process just feels trite and mundane.

And, as said above, you level so fast that most people don’t even bother with experimenting with builds and play-style strategies while leveling. You outlevel gear so fast that gearing in general is very uninteresting during the entirety of the leveling process.

Einlanzer.1627:

Part of the problem with both the old system and the new one is that there are simply too many levels for what you get from obtaining them.

At the end of the day, having 80 levels was kind of foolish. 40 would have made far more sense.

Honestly, I am curious about how they had a framework for “no levels” as in the early builds I heard about.

Labjax.2465:

I feel there is some information in Colin’s post – just not much to go on:

we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

This doesn’t tell me a whole lot, but it does seem to imply that the days of “go complete an absurdly specific objective to unlock your trait” will be over. That’s what I get from simplified anyway.

It’s not much and I understand if people are feeling like this is kind of a meaningless spotlight. I got something out of the post, but not enough to really talk about it, other than as a confirmation that something is going to happen finally.

The problem is that ANet also called the current system streamlined/simplified. I don’t think they understand that word the same way players do.

The confirmation that of change is nice, but honestly it’s a very small drop of nice in a big of bucket of ‘what on earth were they thinking’ that’s built up over nearly a year.

Ashen.2907:

Traits were not inherently tied to the post 80 XP bar before. Focusing on masteries, skill points, etc as part of a discussion specifically about traits implies a connection. The strength of the connection may be up in the air, but the connection has been implied.

Of course the other option is that the decision to suggest masteries as a focus point in a discussion about traits could, in theory at least, have been an attempt to change the subject (which would be odd since the attempt to change the subject would then have been made in the very post where the subject was defined) or an attempt to troll. I do not believe wither of these alternate options.

Note that this thread is not titled, “Future Progression Systems,” it is titled to be about traits and specifically to make reference to a previous thread on the topic of the current trait system.

Gaile linked the only new information we have on traits. Which is that we no longer get skill points at level 80, which may not be a change that would affect the trait system at launch but it is a change that will affect the current trait system(in a very horrible way I might add). That little tiny bit of information just happened to be in an announcement about masteries. Gaile put that tiny little bit of information in an easy to see place so those that didn’t read or just skimmed the announcement would know, something in there pertains to traits. So yes you are just speculating and saying its implication. There just isn’t enough information to imply anything else except that they used the small tiny bit of info to get people to read the announcement.

Believe me I think its complete kitten crap that they locked the old thread and tell us to discuss the new system that has extremely little information released. Plus that information tells us nothing about the new trait system that people have been asking to be changed except for maybe the removal of a skill point cost to unlocking traits. And that’s only if they actually keep traits in the game in a similar form. But I don’t think Gaile purposely sent the thread of topic in the OP. Like I said before, I think she was just linking us to the only bit of information released on the new trait system. Even if it was tiny and irrelevant. That information just happened to be in an announcement about masteries.

Do i have to copy paste my complaints to here?
Or did A’net read my complaints and are they working on it?
I have no mastery’s , i have no idea how to get them and i don’t play those worlds.
What i have is a disabled elementalist which i like to play but i have to unlock the traits.
Sorry but i have sooner hit 100% world explore, then i have unlocked all those traits ( they push me everywhere around, and i don’t like to be pushed around).
earn your traits is a good idea, but the way A’net implanted it , lvl your own new toon and you now it isn’t right.
greetz exp

Gilosean.3805:

Labjax.2465:

I feel there is some information in Colin’s post – just not much to go on:

we’re going to be removing the current trait unlocking system currently on live and replacing it with a more simplified system that supports where skills-traits-specializations are going in the future. We’ll go into more details between now and the release of HOT on how skills, traits, and specializations will work in the new Gw2 world.

This doesn’t tell me a whole lot, but it does seem to imply that the days of “go complete an absurdly specific objective to unlock your trait” will be over. That’s what I get from simplified anyway.

It’s not much and I understand if people are feeling like this is kind of a meaningless spotlight. I got something out of the post, but not enough to really talk about it, other than as a confirmation that something is going to happen finally.

The problem is that ANet also called the current system streamlined/simplified. I don’t think they understand that word the same way players do.

The confirmation that of change is nice, but honestly it’s a very small drop of nice in a big of bucket of ‘what on earth were they thinking’ that’s built up over nearly a year.

I certainly think how long it took to get a true confirmation a change is coming is something that Anet got wrong on this. In the last thread a dev mentioned about tweaking the system to make it easier to use until a new system was ready. Not quite how it turned out by any stretch.

That said past is past, I think the bigger worry is “is the new system going to to really address the concerned raised, and reflect the feedback given”. We can’t know that for now, and until more details are known, I think it s easier for a lot of us to look on the black side.

I hope details come sooner rather and later so we don’t have to assume the worst.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Gaile linked the only new information we have on traits. Which is that we no longer get skill points at level 80,

Perhaps I missed something then because I do not see how not getting skill points at level 80 (particularly since we have been told that we actually will continue to get skill points) says anything about the traits unless the implication is that those two elements are linked.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I sense that certain elements are still being weighed and considered. […] it may be premature to discuss “plans” as opposed to simply saying, as Colin did, that changes are coming.

So the team’s decided to change it but hasn’t decided how yet? Okay then, allow me to present some advice, derived from two other MMOs I think handled this sort of thing well: Rift and The Secret World. (I also fully agree with all suggestions to bring traits back down to lower levels and make unlocks less annoying – these suggestions are more for the problem of people not using or caring about traits even when they have them.)

1) Offer preset builds

Mention was made, earlier in this thread, of some staggeringly high percentage of players never even using traits. Obviously, the current trait acquisition system has only made that problem worse, as the massive hurdle of unlocking traits encourages people to write them off as not worth it, or even to dismiss them as “a crutch for bads”.

As much as we want to encourage people to care about their builds, we have to admit a lot of players want to turn off their brains when they game and will actively avoid anything requiring thought. Therefore: offer trait presets. Someone who wants to be, for example, a Necro with a lot of minions can slot the Minion Master preset and go about their business, while the people who want to think about their builds can still freely experiment. This feature was in The Secret World from launch – there’s a huge skill wheel, and you’re free to make your own build, but if you don’t care and just want to kill mans there’s a whole list of presets to choose from. Rift didn’t have presets at launch, but wound up adding them much later, IIRC after a test session in another country in which a lot of testers were stymied by the soul system but were ashamed to admit it so they just didn’t play.

2) Put traits and skills in the same place

In The Secret World and in Rift, you really can’t fail to unlock passive bonuses because they’re right in there with the active skills. If you put points into Rift’s Pyromancer soul, you will inevitably buy passive improvements to your fire spells that take effect automatically. If you put points into TSW’s shotgun skills, you will inevitably unlock a bunch of passive improvements to shotguns and/or synergies with other weapons, and with a highly visible passive skillbar right there next to your active skillbar it’s obvious you should slot some passives.

But in Guild Wars 2 traits are off in their own separate window, easy to ignore. So as nice as the current trait window looks, toss it and make 1 screen containing both traits and skills – thus, when someone looks at their skill options, they’ll see their trait options as well, and be reminded traits exist as an important part of their build.

3) Other suggestions

Obviously, suggestions 1 and 2 aren’t very useful to a person with few or no traits unlocked, and it’s shockingly easy under the current system to reach 80 with only a handful. Trait acquisition needs to be reworked so that the average player will have most if not all traits unlocked by the time they reach 80. It’s fine to put uber awesome traits behind challenging unlock tasks, but the basic adept and master traits should be easily available.

Also, as others have said, withholding traits until the middle levels teaches new players that traits aren’t important or necessary. Bring them back down so that people are slotting their first trait before they’ve leveled out of the starter zone – if you’re worried about overwhelming them, see #1 and offer presets.

The skill points area is highly speculative. I think in terms of the purchase option of the current system they are by far the most prohibitive thing. Gold is still an issue, but it being account bound, and ways to make a fair bit in a reasonable space of time.

If traits become account bound, the cost per character will dive, depending on number of alts and the costs remaining the same as now. For altoholics who probably don’t want to go through the traits system for every character as now, no matter how good the unlocking process is, that is a good thing. The effect would be even greater if skill points themselves become account bound as well (fingers crossed on that one in my opinion)

That said, if traits move to account-binding there is a chance that the price goes up to reflect that. That would be in line with the decreased need to unlock traits on every alt, and would depend also on the perceived rate in which skill points can be acquired compared to now.

Also a chance that none of that will be applicable because if the trait needs unlocking just once, perhaps less of a need to allow a quicker but more expensive way.

I wouldn’t mind skill points being removed from this aspect completely, I feel the tie-in was unnecessary and if the aim is to create a possible skillpoint-sink, I think putting it away from a core system would be a lot more acceptable.

I’ll be interested in seeing if any of those are true. As a side note, got a second response from Gaile from the exchange I talked about earlier. With this response, after I clarified some things I said, I can honestly say I feel more valued as a player than I have in the last 10 months of this fiasco. For me its not just about getting what I want, whether changes or information, I feel there can be a big difference between getting what I want and feeling valued, and Gaile certainly delivered on the latter. I have a greater sense of optimism now with this system and the game in general, and I hope the details when the come add to that. Just want to put on record my gratitude to Gaile.

I like the idea of traits being reorganized into specialty paths. I’ve been trying to do this with my role play toons. For example thief 1 is a Spy who uses all venoms and thief 2 is an assassin who maximizes stealth. These are not ideal builds and my role play make them narrow but I enjoy figuring out how to win within their specialized constraints.

Guardian 1 is spiritual and uses all spirit weapons with max burn off hand torch and sigils. Gaurdian 2 is a born leader who uses only shouts

Necro 1 explores zaitan’s dark side and uses all minions while she keeps her distance with scepter. Necro 2 uses dual dagger to fight up close with all corruptions and consume conditions. She is a sylvari tempted by the nightmare but still prefers a more natural approach with plant poisons rather than undead minions.

From what I gather with Masteries, they are going to use activities similar to what are currently the activities to get traits – and they can be done once, and count account wide. If they do indeed use the current trait activities for masteries, so long as they’re account-wide I would be happy. Also, it makes more sense for, say, map completion to go toward a mastery, rather than a singular trait for only one character – that’s a lot of redundancy.

Ashen.2907:

Traits were not inherently tied to the post 80 XP bar before. Focusing on masteries, skill points, etc as part of a discussion specifically about traits implies a connection. The strength of the connection may be up in the air, but the connection has been implied.

Of course the other option is that the decision to suggest masteries as a focus point in a discussion about traits could, in theory at least, have been an attempt to change the subject (which would be odd since the attempt to change the subject would then have been made in the very post where the subject was defined) or an attempt to troll. I do not believe wither of these alternate options.

Note that this thread is not titled, “Future Progression Systems,” it is titled to be about traits and specifically to make reference to a previous thread on the topic of the current trait system.

And Gaile said she was sorry to imply a connection.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Colin recently shared some information related to the Traits system. In addition our article on Masteries provided other early info that could be part of any conversation about traits or character progression. (Edit: I don’t mean to suggest that the two topics are intertwined, only to point you to two discussion about character progression that have been released in recent days.)

Here’s a sparkly new thread to discuss the subject. Please read the post and article linked above. We’d also encourage you to keep up on future information releases so that this thread can be of the greatest value and relevance to other forum members and, of course, to the dev team as well.

Thank you.

It’s fine that they wanted to tie traits to events for players that like that sort of thing, but the option to simply purchase them with trait points and no gold should have remained. The gold sink aspect was unnecessary. As a game, you really want to encourage alts not discourage them since alts equal more time spent in your game. Also, you could make the current system less tedious by making trait points account-wide.

I don’t want to get someone in trouble for doing a good job, but I’d just like to quote this from the “Greatest Fear” thread, one of the other bizarre butcherings the game suffered in the last year:

BobbyStein.2315:

I just wanted to provide an update since it’s been a while.

• We are currently working to restore the Greatest Fear storyline to the live game. I can’t provide a release date at this point.
• In addition to restoring the Personal Story steps to their original order we’re making some minor improvements where possible (e.g. recording new VO or updating certain conversations, etc.).

We’ll provide additional details closer to release. Thanks much for your patience.

Now, while five months is still probably not ideal, it’s a heck of a lot better than ten. More importantly, please note that this post actually gives the following information:

1) Concrete information about what fix is coming.
2) Concrete information about what work is being done currently.

Clear and concise, and the lack of a release date is understandable because we know what is happening. Please, PLEASE, can we get something like this in here?

OK…

deep breath***

I want to have Wolf’s outlook right now. I really do. And believe me, my frustration isn’t with any one individual at Anet since they are, at the end of the day, just doing their jobs to the best of their ability.

My problem right now is with Anet’s overall handling of not only this issue that’s been festering since April 2014, but some other things which we’ve learned with regard to the xpac.

For this issue though…this one, I am beyond annoyed that this has gotten to this point. Am I glad they are doing a complete rework of the trait system? Sure, maybe. I can’t say if I actually like the idea since i have no idea the direction they are going in. Just that they are going in a direction. Given some other decisions Anet has made in a vacuum, this doesn’t leave me with many warm fuzzies. The track record just doesn’t support a positive conclusion. If they acknowledged it to be such a problem over the last year, why didn’t Anet do more during that time to reduce the more burdensome things of the current trait system? Reduce costs? Easier to find events? Less broken events? Anything. Instead nothing was really done except a few tweaks for a handful of traits early on and then nothing else.

So now we get word that the trait system as we know it will be replaced by a new simpler one on live. OK. What does that mean? Seriously. At this point, ten months on, can we get more than “somethin’ new is a-comin’”? If its still so far from actually being done or completed enough that you can’t give any details about it then SAY SO. In plain english. Just say, “hey this is still being worked out, and we don’t have something solid enough to talk about, but it is coming” and not “we have a new simpler system that will be replacing the current system on live”. The second comment there implies you have something ready to go into live, and if its that ready then you should be able to give us some details.

If its not that close to ready though, let us know that too. Stop dangling these things in front of us and then going silent. If its not going to be ready for prime time before the release of HoT, let us know that too, even if the reason is “we want to see how the Mastery system works in the wild before introducing the new trait system.” At least that is an honest answer that some of us might be able to get behind as it at least seems to be logistically sound. Just stop being silent.

And worse of all, please PLEASE don’t go and drop the updated system on us without so much as a word before it happens. I’m sure Anet wouldn’t do something like this as its a major core feature of the game, but once again I’m trying to cover all my bases here.

@Pookie

No doubt my transformation si temporary. I’ll probably be my grumpy self by the end of the week. Even though I am more optimistic of the future of this system, and feel more valued, I do agree with your most recent post.

I do still think 10 months of this is just disgraceful, and still has dented that trust, but, no matter how much we kick and scream, we can’t change how long it has gone on. All that we can hope for is it doesn’t go on much longer.

The main thing for me now is knowing about the system, and I do hope it will be more substantial than the (now deleted) article announcing this system. It was very much from the hype-making perspective, which is fine but it skimmed over some of the details of how it turned out.

When Anet are ready to release the details about this system, I hope the details will be as much on the informative side as the hype-making one, and I hope a dev will be on hand here to give more of that detail that may be missing in such an article. If that happens, I’ll be happy.

And if honest, I feel a bit more optimism for that. I hope that optimism isn’t misplaced, but the final test will be the details we get and how they are presented, and ultimately how the new system is informed by the feedback given. I hope those links will be clear and the system will come good, at long last. For the first time in a long while, I genuinely do have that optimism, and hope it comes good. I still have trust issues with how Anet have done things, don’t get me wrong, but I do believe Anet will be in a position to begin to mend that, and I hope that process starts soon.

Behellagh.1468:

Ashen.2907:

Traits were not inherently tied to the post 80 XP bar before. Focusing on masteries, skill points, etc as part of a discussion specifically about traits implies a connection. The strength of the connection may be up in the air, but the connection has been implied.

Of course the other option is that the decision to suggest masteries as a focus point in a discussion about traits could, in theory at least, have been an attempt to change the subject (which would be odd since the attempt to change the subject would then have been made in the very post where the subject was defined) or an attempt to troll. I do not believe wither of these alternate options.

Note that this thread is not titled, “Future Progression Systems,” it is titled to be about traits and specifically to make reference to a previous thread on the topic of the current trait system.

And Gaile said she was sorry to imply a connection.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Colin recently shared some information related to the Traits system. In addition our article on Masteries provided other early info that could be part of any conversation about traits or character progression. (Edit: I don’t mean to suggest that the two topics are intertwined, only to point you to two discussion about character progression that have been released in recent days.)

Here’s a sparkly new thread to discuss the subject. Please read the post and article linked above. We’d also encourage you to keep up on future information releases so that this thread can be of the greatest value and relevance to other forum members and, of course, to the dev team as well.

Thank you.

Thank you for the quote which supports my point. “discuss the subject,” not, “subjects.” And points to trait and non trait related commentary.

Saying that you dont mean to do something while continuing to do it renders the disclaimer null.

Note that this is not a complaint. I think that linking the various progression systems could work out. I am just commenting based on the limited information available. I admit that I would rather be discussing details of the new system, or even just its generalities, but those are not yet available.

See, thats the problem for me. This is just feeling more and more like the precursor crafting nonsense and I already hate how that has turned out.

With all of the other things Anet has done (and not done) in aggregate, it leaves me feeling more apprehensive about any change the longer it goes without details and a heaping load of silence.

Its just a shame that for a game that gets so many other things right, that the few missteps they make can be so large as to almost completely negate those good things.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

See, thats the problem for me. This is just feeling more and more like the precursor crafting nonsense and I already hate how that has turned out.

With all of the other things Anet has done (and not done) in aggregate, it leaves me feeling more apprehensive about any change the longer it goes without details and a heaping load of silence.

Its just a shame that for a game that gets so many other things right, that the few missteps they make can be so large as to almost completely negate those good things.

I think what’s particularly annoying about this is the sheer lack of effort required to fix this compared to the effort going in to keeping us happy elsewhere. The main recurrent issues that come up a lot (at least that I follow) are:

1) Traits.
2) SAB.
3) Personal story changes.
4) Hobosacks.

The programming for all four of these is essentially done. Traits just needed to be account bound, reverted, or simply never broken. SAB just needs to be turned on. The personal story… honestly even more than traits I can’t believe that went through, its so disrespectful to the game and the work that went into it that I’m just baffled by it (but at least we’ve had info on that finally). Hobosacks just need to be turned off.

On the other side of the fence we have Heart of Thorns, and all the other updates and bits of free content. TONS of free and paid content to keep us happy, with who knows how many thousands of hours of work out into them, but its all weighed down by such seemingly simple fixes. Or, even more simply, the hour or so of work it would take to just come to the forum and write a post explaining why exactly each issue is in the state it is currently in.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

OK…

---

deep breath***

I want to have Wolf’s outlook right now. I really do. And believe me, my frustration isn’t with any one individual at Anet since they are, at the end of the day, just doing their jobs to the best of their ability.

My problem right now is with Anet’s overall handling of not only this issue that’s been festering since April 2014, but some other things which we’ve learned with regard to the xpac.

For this issue though…this one, I am beyond annoyed that this has gotten to this point. Am I glad they are doing a complete rework of the trait system? Sure, maybe. I can’t say if I actually like the idea since i have no idea the direction they are going in. Just that they are going in a direction. Given some other decisions Anet has made in a vacuum, this doesn’t leave me with many warm fuzzies. The track record just doesn’t support a positive conclusion. If they acknowledged it to be such a problem over the last year, why didn’t Anet do more during that time to reduce the more burdensome things of the current trait system? Reduce costs? Easier to find events? Less broken events? Anything. Instead nothing was really done except a few tweaks for a handful of traits early on and then nothing else.

So now we get word that the trait system as we know it will be replaced by a new simpler one on live. OK. What does that mean? Seriously. At this point, ten months on, can we get more than “somethin’ new is a-comin’”? If its still so far from actually being done or completed enough that you can’t give any details about it then SAY SO. In plain english. Just say, “hey this is still being worked out, and we don’t have something solid enough to talk about, but it is coming” and not “we have a new simpler system that will be replacing the current system on live”. The second comment there implies you have something ready to go into live, and if its that ready then you should be able to give us some details.

If its not that close to ready though, let us know that too. Stop dangling these things in front of us and then going silent. If its not going to be ready for prime time before the release of HoT, let us know that too, even if the reason is “we want to see how the Mastery system works in the wild before introducing the new trait system.” At least that is an honest answer that some of us might be able to get behind as it at least seems to be logistically sound. Just stop being silent.

And worse of all, please PLEASE don’t go and drop the updated system on us without so much as a word before it happens. I’m sure Anet wouldn’t do something like this as its a major core feature of the game, but once again I’m trying to cover all my bases here.

I agree, if they are actually working on something they need to give us details. If they aren’t they should say so also. They just really need to give us details now so that they don’t end up doing what SOE did with SWG. SOE made a change to their game (called the combat upgrade)that was close to what players wanted but executed poorly, much like what we have had for the last year with GW2. Then when they realized the changes were hurting the game they changed everything again into completely different system that turned the game into a completely different game. This caused a mass exodus that could have been prevented if SOE would have worked with the players rather than just dump something in our laps and tell us to like it or leave. I feel arenanet is on the same path and I don’t see them changing. All it takes is communication. We the players will let you know every single bad thing that can come of something. We are good at that.

Hell, I’d be willing to sign an NDA and be allowed access into an alpha testing server if that’s what it took. Seriously, I get the hassle of QA and of trying to meet deadlines set by people that don’t have the slightest clue what devs do, but you (Anet) have access to a fairly large pool of potential testers and one of the more thoughtfully engaging communities out there. We can be a resource if you actually leverage us in that way.

I started playing GW2 around a year ago, so i am not really the skillest dude around here, but i wanted to share a feeling i have on the actual traits.

First let me say i love GW2 build system in almost every aspect, but his trait choice sometimes leaves to desire: what i mean is that there are traits that are kinda niche and are forced on you and some others rather than enlarge restrict the build possibility of your character.

I take as example the Necromancer, but i saw recurrence in other professions.

1) By niche i mean that in a said trait line there are traits that you are forced to pick even if they tray way off your build. One example is Curses for necro where they force you to take bleed on crit in a condi/prec line. While perfectly in line of his own it forces power builds that want some crit to apply useless bleed that then overwrites more powerful bleeds from other sources ( a minor issue for the condi situation ). I acknowledge that stacking too much synergizing stats/effects it’ s not good for many reasons, but instead it could use a more generic tier 1 trait, like the one that gives life force on crit (an effect that could be evenly used in many builds) since it is an imposed one, while still retaining its core identity as a crit choice.

2) But the worst offender are traits that in some way forces you to restrict your build. I talk about those that increase power of restricted classes of skills: when it’ s a matter of utility skills it won’ t be useful to pick a X-improving trait without getting at least 3 Xs or so. Thematically wise is fine, you want to spend power for an improved class of skills and you get it, but strategically this shrinks a lot the build possibilities, and having such a gating in this way really saddens me, while a more spreading effect ( Buff for Y for a skill, Y/2 + something if 2 and so on ) would still empathize the choice of favoring a set of skill class, but would still concede easier hybridization with other skills.

Toughts?

EDIT: looking back at other responses, i congregate to the others about the actual trait unlock system (but i will not elaborate my view on that – what i wanted to say was already said and reviewed) and i want to focus more instead on the content, might it be an “at range” change or not.
Also i did a mess by the merge of my comments. If you see multiple of my comment don’ t worry, i did not become demented :P

Well since they are completely re-doing traits “soon” this all might be moot.

Here is the official Trait feedback thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Traits-Part-2/page/3#post4780223

Good luck.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Here is the official Trait feedback thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Traits-Part-2/page/3#post4780223

Good luck.

That slipped under my nose, thanks for reporting it to me!

This is what I would like for the new trait system:

In early levels, perhaps after unlocking all your weapon skills, the games gives you a prompt to select a trait line you would like to progress. Maybe let us progress all trait lines at the same time but we progress them by doing something that pertains to that specific trait line. If not let us change which trait lines to progress while OOC. It be great if we can get an explanation of when (at what level) or where we can get trait points to spend. Let’s say you are a warrior and want to focus on dealing more physical damage first so the game explains about the trait lines so you can choose which one will help you increase your damage. Since you are focusing on damage the accumalitive damage dealt will keep on progressing the trait line. This would work much like the old way of unlocking weapon skils which to me was more fullfilling than what we have on live thanks to the NPE changes. The game could probaly keep on giving spendable trait points at the same intervals as currently and by the time you L30 and you get your first trait point you should have several minor traits unlocked (from the trait lines progressed) in which to put your trait point.

Ashen.2907:

I see some implication of them being all one big system in this thread’s existence. We are not supposed to post off topic. This thread is titled for discussion of traits. No new details are available to be discussed about traits. An Anet employee specifically introduced the subject of masteries and such into a topic supposedly specifically about traits. If the topic is traits and the Anet employee comments to the efect of, “about those traits, lets talk about masteries,” without it being considered off topic, then there is an implication of them being intrinsicly linked.

I dont necessarily believe that this implication will come to fruition, but it is there.

Please dont be so obtuse about the thread’s purpose. This thread isnt JUST about traits. Gaile’s said that multiple times. The reason she mentioned Masteries was because it’s another form of character progression, and due to being available at level 80, is somewhat horizontal progression for characters. Masteries affect characters just as traits do, so OF COURSE they’re intrinsically linked. By your character. At face value, that’s as FAR as the implication goes. Traits are character progression. Masteries are character progression. Ergo, both can be discussed in this thread.

Frankly, gaile should change the thread title so people can get off of it and onto the topic at hand itself.

On the subject of traits, I can see them being changed so that you can still purchase them, however, it’s much more streamlined to unlock them. For example, if they retain the “get traits at 30” crap, they could unlock a couple adept traits if you do map completion of say… Gendarren fields, or whatever the place is with the vigil keep. Grandmaster traits could be unlocked by running Arah paths, or a FoTM1+ set.

With the current system, I was never really bothered by it. Sure I leveled a mesmer after it was introduced, but because I knew exactly what I wanted to do with it, I either did those unlocks, or simply bought those traits. New players shouldnt have been affected too much unless they’re the “IWANTNOWPL0X” crowd. Unfortunately, with the traits being spread out between areas/events that were basically +/-30 levels, some traits were far out of reach at the time you were able to start using them. If that had been changed quickly, the trait system might have been more acceptable.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Frankly, gaile should change the thread title so people can get off of it and onto the topic at hand itself.

With all due respect Aidan, the topic at hand IS the traits system. Full stop. This thread was created after the original 10 month long 83 pages thread that was on this forum was closed/removed.

The topic has only ever been the traits system, except now we have been told something is coming and that’s it. No more info other than:

a) it was going to be simpler
b) it was replacing the current system on live
c) it is meant to mesh with the new progression systems (masteries, specializations, skills)

So from that, all we can do is speculate and do so through the lense of the mastery system since that is the only thing we’ve been given a small glimpse of, and even then the only info relevant to that is no more SP gain after 80 except from event drops, only available to spend mastery points if you buy the xpac, and a few of the mastery tracks.

Whatever “mesh” means.

Behellagh.1468:

Whatever “mesh” means.

Exactly my point.

I get that this new thread was supposed to somehow be a new place for communications and the like, but really as I stated earlier, there isn’t anything to discuss with no real info.

My current ideal for a trait system:

Tier 1 fully unlocks automatically, so players can experiment at early levels.

Tier 2 traits can be bought (cheaply) with skill points (no gold), directly in the trait interface.

Tier 3 traits require facing trait challenges and spending a few skill points. Complete any trait challenge to unlock any T3 trait of your choice, making it open for purchase with skill points. There should be more challenges to pick from than traits to unlock. Unlocking of a trait would be account-wide. Purchases of unlocked traits would then still have to be made on a character-by-character basis.

what about a tier system that barely has any traits at all and only has the so called “global” traits, the current traits are based on some weapons, the new specialization system could actually be based on one trait for a whole line of skills.
something like a trait that focuses on AoE range, not just the small group of skills but every AoE skill you need to place on the ground.

for the necro this would mean that this one trait will make both all marks and all wells have more AoE range, they can always limit this with having a choice of ether AoE range or more damage.

they wanted to simplify this, that’s how it’s done properly.
they will all be unlocked from point one tho, no need to over-complicate a system that already has less traits to go for.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Frankly, gaile should change the thread title so people can get off of it and onto the topic at hand itself.

With all due respect Aidan, the topic at hand IS the traits system. Full stop. This thread was created after the original 10 month long 83 pages thread that was on this forum was closed/removed.

The topic has only ever been the traits system, except now we have been told something is coming and that’s it. No more info other than:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Colin recently shared some information related to the Traits system. In addition our article on Masteries provided other early info that could be part of any conversation about traits or character progression. (Edit: I don’t mean to suggest that the two topics are intertwined, only to point you to two discussion[b]s[/b] about character progression that have been released in recent days.)

Here’s a sparkly new thread to discuss the subject. Please read the post and article linked above. We’d also encourage you to keep up on future information releases so that this thread can be of the greatest value and relevance to other forum members and, of course, to the dev team as well.

Thank you.

The bold should be of interest for you. (Also gaile, you forgot that ‘discussion’ should have been plural )

Sorudo, when they say simplifying the trait system, I dont think THAT was how they intended to simplify it. Currently the effects of traits are about as simple as they can get without merging traits and needing to create more to fill the gap. Like the engineer’s trait for example, that gives pistol skills (at least the autoattack) piercing, literally states “pistol skills pierce.” Cant get any simpler. I’m under the impression, and the implication of what’s been stated so far seems to support it, is that they’re simplifying the system of obtaining traits, while retaining the ability to buy traits still. There’s definitely things they can do to adjust traits themselves to make them better (like selectable minor traits so power builds can take something other than the “I cant inflict good condi so I’ll overwrite yours and laugh” traits), but those are ideas for another thread.