Guild Wars 2

Would you look at that. The New Traits thread has been buried on page 5. I guess their plan work.

Galphar.3901:

Would you look at that. The New Traits thread has been buried on page 5. I guess their plan work.

Yes, there is always a sinister plan at work. Always.

Galphar.3901:

Would you look at that. The New Traits thread has been buried on page 5. I guess their plan work.

At the end of the day the other post was just too visual and too big to ignore and it would adversely affect the work they are putting into promoting HoT.

That being said, the overall chilling effect starting the new thread and then promptly telling people that they could guess what might be coming but if they really didn’t feel like talking about it, then maybe they shouldn’t wasn’t lost on me either.

Still no real word on whats to come though in this respect or even if we would see it before or after HoT drops. So yeah. Keep speculating people.

Less tinfoil please. Gaile simply said that if you dont feel there’s enough information currently out for you to have a meaningfully contributing post, then feel free NOT to post. Simply put, it amounts to “stay on topic, or in the line of discussion, or dont post.”

And frankly, who cares if the thread drifts back as a result of no new information available? We wouldnt want a repeat of the first thread, would we? Complete bloat with little new info and contributions here and there.

@Aidan: If the goal was to simply simplify it in that way then they would have/should have done those changes a LOOOOOONG time ago. Fact is they didn’t. Fact is Colin said that the new simpler system was going to completely replace the current version on live. This means that they have something that will most likely mirror the new progression systems, but since they’ve not said much about how those systems will actually work nor any info about the trait system specifically we are left with talking about nothing of substance.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Less tinfoil please. Gaile simply said that if you dont feel there’s enough information currently out for you to have a meaningfully contributing post, then feel free NOT to post. Simply put, it amounts to “stay on topic, or in the line of discussion, or dont post.”

And frankly, who cares if the thread drifts back as a result of no new information available? We wouldnt want a repeat of the first thread, would we? Complete bloat with little new info and contributions here and there.

No, actually I kind of DO want a repeat of that post at this point. Seriously getting tired of pointing out WHY there was so much bloat, but since it seems to need repeating AGAIN: The reason why there was so much vitriol and constant posting asking for information (pleading even), and so much repetition in that thread was because there was literally NO feedback from Anet for months on something that had more than enough feedback from the player base to warrant a proper response/discussion.

Instead of engaging a growing thread with new people coming in month after month with the same issues and suggestions Anet opted to first tell us that something new and simpler will be put into live in place of the current system and then some more silence then a closing of the thread and the creation of this one. Not because Anet was planning on actually finally discussing this new system they teased, but so we could FURTHER speculate on it in light of masteries and specializations. All in all we are still at square one, only this time we know that they are working on replacing the trait system. Oh wait. They actually told that to us MONTHS ago, about half way through that thread when they also said they’d be making small tweaks to the current system (which they barely did before seemingly forgetting about it). So right now we are still where we were months ago, except with a new thread that doesn’t show that many of us have been discussing this since last April, quite vehemently. But please, feel free to speculate with us. Just don’t justify staying silent. I car if this drops to page 4+ because it means its even easier for Anet to ignore.

Okay, I am going to say this very plainly. I despise the current trait unlocking system. I will not create any new characters while this terrible system remains in place. Now, normally I would buy the new expansion and create a new character with the new class (ala buying a new slot as well). However, I will not while the current trait system or something that resembles it is in place.

Please note, that I do really like the game. The current trait system is just awful.

The way I look at is that NOTHING will get done to the traits system until after HoT drops and all the veterans go to roll Revenants and finally see how bad the current system is. Then they will bombard these forums with complaints about it and within 2 hrs of HoT going live Colin will be in here telling us exactly what they are going to do and they will have it fixed within a day.

Galphar.3901:

The way I look at is that NOTHING will get done to the traits system until after HoT drops and all the veterans go to roll Revenants and finally see how bad the current system is. Then they will bombard these forums with complaints about it and within 2 hrs of HoT going live Colin will be in here telling us exactly what they are going to do and they will have it fixed within a day.

But theyve already stated that they are going to do SOMETHING to the trait system. What? who knows, and thats the problem with this thread. We know they are going to do something, we dont know what they will do exactly.

The old thread was filled with veterans demanding the traits be changed, so your thoughts on that are wrong too.

What confuses me is why we haven’t had information still. The HoT thing is out of the bag. The system is near universally hated. The last thread had 4,000 posts and 200,000 views.

I don’t understand what it is that is so important about staying quiet that it outweighs the damage that’s been/being caused…

CrashTestAuto.9108:

What confuses me is why we haven’t had information still. The HoT thing is out of the bag. The system is near universally hated. The last thread had 4,000 posts and 200,000 views.

I don’t understand what it is that is so important about staying quiet that it outweighs the damage that’s been/being caused…

its because they dont actually have a working solution yet. They probably have some ideas, but they arent sure if they are actually workable or an improvement. It would probably make sense to run some things by the players, or ask more pointed questions, but that is against the general policy, and they dont really have the infrastructure or staff to handle feedback properly anyhow.

Look at the last thread, tons of suggestions, discussion, brainstorming, and most of it lost because devs dont have the time nor inclination to sift through it all, and analyze what it all really means as whole, for whats good for the game. They are busy people and are basically skimming it looking for cliff notes, while not trying to get upset about people talking bad about things to which they put a lot of effort.

But unless something changes, they will continue to have some real problems, because their style is based on iterations, not genius design, and they arent good enough at getting/analyzing/understanding feedback or having a fast enough turn around time, to make a iteritive development style really shine.

to maximize their iterative development style, they should have set up a test server long ago, as well as a feedback structure/plan that can crystalize feedback rather quickly. 1 year for iteration, and 10 months gathering feedback for a change is not going to give you a lot of positive evolution.

I’d revert trait acquisition (Grandmaster traits at lvl 60) ,as DeceiverX suggested..
You could almost say these are the basic genetically determined characteristics of your profession.

But I would also take along the idea of gaining distinguishing new features for your character as
you travel the world.But i’d introduce that in a new form.
Throughout the world there would be trainers of normal,expert,master and grandmaster lvl and they will have challenges for you to overcome and gain new abilities.(Sometimes these challenges will be instanced) like there could be a trainer of athletics and the normal trainer can learn you how to sprint for a short time if win a challenging race parcour.
The grandmaster could have a skill that greatly increases the damage you need to take in downed mode before being defeated

In a celestial environment you could encounter a trainer that has a challenge for you to gain a new powerful Guardian skill for example
Location,environment,context it all matters.And this is where current implementation of traits missed the ball.(although a trainer could have new skills and/or traits if you best the challenge,perhaps)
How the traits are linked now doesn’t make much sense.
Although I think its a wonderful idea that the world offers oppertunities for your character to unfold further.

“Masteries give you meaningful powers to affect your interaction with the game and open up new abilities as you progress”

The trainers(N,expert,master,GM) scattered across the world would have challenges (some profession specific with as reward new profession skills) others trainers like the athletic one would available to any character.

Aidan Savage.2078:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Frankly, gaile should change the thread title so people can get off of it and onto the topic at hand itself.

With all due respect Aidan, the topic at hand IS the traits system. Full stop. This thread was created after the original 10 month long 83 pages thread that was on this forum was closed/removed.

The topic has only ever been the traits system, except now we have been told something is coming and that’s it. No more info other than:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Colin recently shared some information related to the Traits system. In addition our article on Masteries provided other early info that could be part of any conversation about traits or character progression. (Edit: I don’t mean to suggest that the two topics are intertwined, only to point you to two discussion[b]s[/b] about character progression that have been released in recent days.)

Here’s a sparkly new thread to discuss the subject. Please read the post and article linked above. We’d also encourage you to keep up on future information releases so that this thread can be of the greatest value and relevance to other forum members and, of course, to the dev team as well.

Thank you.

The bold should be of interest for you. (Also gaile, you forgot that ‘discussion’ should have been plural )

Sorudo, when they say simplifying the trait system, I dont think THAT was how they intended to simplify it. Currently the effects of traits are about as simple as they can get without merging traits and needing to create more to fill the gap. Like the engineer’s trait for example, that gives pistol skills (at least the autoattack) piercing, literally states “pistol skills pierce.” Cant get any simpler. I’m under the impression, and the implication of what’s been stated so far seems to support it, is that they’re simplifying the system of obtaining traits, while retaining the ability to buy traits still. There’s definitely things they can do to adjust traits themselves to make them better (like selectable minor traits so power builds can take something other than the “I cant inflict good condi so I’ll overwrite yours and laugh” traits), but those are ideas for another thread.

uhmm, 2 different traits for the same thing isn’t my idea of “simple”, it’s an unnecessary fill of traits.
i rather have about 20 traits across the entire trait system then plenty with double functions, it’s pretty much factions all over again and they fixed some of the skills they doubled.

To really make specialization a choice ,it would only be logical if for example a ranger that decides to turn druid would lose access to certain traits for the new traits they gain as druid.
Those that stay ranger will get traits the druid will never have,and vice versa.

The trainers(or Instructors might be a better name) scattered accross the world would have all the new expansion skills/traits for you if you can show that you have gained the right qualities to earn them, by besting the challenges they have in store for you.
Perhaps there are occasions that you need to rescue a specialization specific instructor in order to prevent that the secrets/trait/skill they can learn you vanishes with their demise.
If you then have chosen to stay on the path of the ranger for example you won’t be there to save a circle of druids and miss out on all the secrets the instructors within had in store for you.
Choice and consequence.

So original game ;traits unlock according to lvl again.
Expansion:Instructors scattered across the world have new skills/utility/weaponskill swaps/traits you can unlock by proving your qualities, some alone,some in group challenge

sorudo.9054:

uhmm, 2 different traits for the same thing isn’t my idea of “simple”, it’s an unnecessary fill of traits.
i rather have about 20 traits across the entire trait system then plenty with double functions, it’s pretty much factions all over again and they fixed some of the skills they doubled.

Wells arent Marks, Marks arent Wells. Just because they’re both AoE skills does not make them equivalent and the same, therefore allowing you to provide 1 trait to give both a boost. Second, Marks are a targeted AoE skill regardless of traits. Wells are a point-blank AoE unless they’re traited. To top it off, The two groups of skills are too vastly different to be lumped together like that. Simplifying trait effects any further would require some drastic changes to skills overall.

As far as multiple traits affecting one set of skills over another, why is that an issue? By that logic, the engineer might as well merge every single trait that affects kits, or requires kits, into one single trait. Which is an incredibly bad idea. The intent behind the traits being divided such as they are, including being in multiple trait lines, is that in order to make the most use of a given skill type (kits or wells), you need to sacrifice for them, often weighing which relevant trait is more important than another relevant trait. Engineers, for example, using Juggernaut or Grenadier probably wouldnt (I just realized engis had a 25% move speed trait, yay more shenanigans!) sacrifice 2 or more points in order to take BOTH speedy kits and kit refinement.

They really need to tell us their plan, and I really hope this revamp comes into play BEFORE the expansion hits. I’d rather not pay money on the expansion if I don’t know if it’s actually going to FIX the traits properly.

very excited as well for their plan.
I think a mentor/instructor system like I suggested before could expand on the existing basic traits of original game(besides introducing the new ones in an exciting way).Add extra flavor to the current ingame traits and skills.
As for traits affecting skills I’ve been thinking about that a lot.
Lets take necromancers as example,they have Locust swarm
In the new jungle area there could be a tribal mentor/instructor that has a challenge for you to unlock a trait that will turn the locust into a school of mindleech companions that will follow you around
Then there would be some advantages/disadvantages linked to each choice.
Like if you choose to take that new unlocked trait, the locus swarm skill will lose the ability to cripple,but gain the ability to disease enemies and heal you for small amounts

RyuDragnier.9476:

They really need to tell us their plan, and I really hope this revamp comes into play BEFORE the expansion hits. I’d rather not pay money on the expansion if I don’t know if it’s actually going to FIX the traits properly.

It’s likely coming WITH the expansion, but not IN the expansion. Would be too confusing and detrimental to the playerbase to retain 2 different trait systems at once.

Aidan Savage.2078:

RyuDragnier.9476:

They really need to tell us their plan, and I really hope this revamp comes into play BEFORE the expansion hits. I’d rather not pay money on the expansion if I don’t know if it’s actually going to FIX the traits properly.

It’s likely coming WITH the expansion, but not IN the expansion. Would be too confusing and detrimental to the playerbase to retain 2 different trait systems at once.

And this right there is a big problem. Plainly put, Anet cannot (as evidenced by history) make large changes and updates to the game like this expansion along with changing core functions of the game without horribly breaking something.

After 10+ months this trait update cannot afford to leave the gates hobbled in any way and for the sake of expansion sales it cannot drop along with the expansion. I know i cannot and will not give Anet any money for an expansion with this current trait system in place. I wasn’t kidding on the original thread when I described it as a game breaking problem.

Launching the trait fix with HoT or after it would be horrible and whatever influx of new players that might jump on board that train (most likely to make Revs or Druids) will drop off fairly fast once the trait system in live comes to bear.

So are there no plans for Last Refuge then?

Gaile Gray.6029:

Any forum member knows that not all comments are “words of wisdom.” Many are. Our position is not to close and ignore, but to close and move to a second round of discussion. We’d rather not see 14 posts by the same person saying the exact same thing. It’s really that simple, and that is what was becoming the norm in the former thread. Yes, even the most ardent supporter of the previous thread can see that this is what happened.

I confess to being guilty as charged in the previous thread.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Your feedback, whether given now or in the future when you have more information upon which to base it, will be valued, as always. But please, everyone, keep the feedback on the topic of traits. We’re not going to discuss the old thread, the decision to open a new thread, or forum decisions in general, for that is of little to no importance in the overall scope of things.

I stated my piece in the other thread, but since this thread is intended to reset the discussion in the post-HoT-announcement world, I have a few points to make.

I’ve seen lots of disappointment in this thread, and I think it stems from the ambiguity of what’s been announced. A system that supports where masteries are going is all well and good, or is it? The fact is that we don’t know. How this system is going to support masteries is anyone’s guess. There has been some speculation in this thread, some promising and some troubling. Every speculator’s opinion is equally valid because we honestly don’t know what’s going on. Here are my own opinions regarding some of the speculation that I’ve seen in this thread:

• Speculation — Traits won’t be available at all until level 80.
  Personally, I don’t believe that ArenaNet would do that to us. Just because traits are going to support masteries doesn’t mean the two systems will work identically.
• Speculation — Traits will be account-wide.
  I certainly hope so. This would defeinitely be a step in the right direction.
• Speculation — The new trait acquisition system will be more flexible with regards to choosing traits.
  I’m not so sure how this would be implemented without complicating the system more than it already is. We already have a trait point system in place. Adding another trait acquisition point system would be kind of clunky. I’m not opposed to this idea, but I’m skeptical that it will be implemented.
• Speculation — Players will have to purchase the expansion to reap the benefits of the new trait system.
  The players venturing this opinion epitomize pessimism. Implementing a system like this would actually be extra work for ArenaNet. I doubt that they would intentionally go out of their way to antagonize players like this.

My advice to the implementers of this system is to ask these two questions before making any decisions regarding traits (or any other feature that is essential to character development for that matter):

• Is the task required to unlock a given trait accomplishable by a single player with a consistent but limited 2-hour window of play time?
• Will unlocking a given trait continue to be exciting on the second, third, fourth, and even fifth alts, or will it feel like yet another tedious chore to muddle through?

If the answer to either of those is “no,” I strongly suggest reconsidering that decision.

rapthorne.7345:

With respect, no information was actually shared other than something may in some way change with HoT. Ambiguous information is often more frustrating than none at all.

Agreed.

I can’t say anything other than I preferred the original trait system to this current one. But who knows what this future direction is, other than ArenaNet who aren’t saying yet.

Gaile Gray.6029:

No snark intended. All I said was factual. You can see that if you analyze the thread, where even after Colin’s post, people were returning to the same comments without recognizing that changes are coming. Saying “Change it!” when the game director has said “We’re going to change it!” doesn’t seem the best of discussions.

Sure, players would like more information. But that’s not available right now. So the choices are to continue on the treadmill of wash/rinse/repeat in the old thread, determine there’s sufficient info to post a new comment in this thread, or hold off until there is more information. It sounds as if you fall into the latter category, and that’s perfectly fine! Feel free to post in the future when you feel you have enough on which to base your input.

That’s because the last time you said you’re changing something, we got the messed-up trait system…
The problem here is that you don’t have a PTR or even a dedicated group of players to test the changes you make – you just make them and the hell with the players. And if you turn out to be wrong, you do nothing about it unless it hits some major gaming website. See, you do this with no consideration to players and only after you have set it in stone you come to us asking for feedback, which you completely ignore – only to then lock the thread, so it dies in the bottom of the forum, which I find extremly rude. You know, there’s this wierd concept called “beta-testers”. Maybe you should get Colin to look into that.
I stopped playing (read: stopped wasting time hoping this game would improve) about the time Colin made his reply in the trait thread and so far, reading the forums and your so-called updates hadnt caused me to log in, not even for the reward. Perhaps I’d change my mind when you actually decide to have an open communication with us and tell us what awaits us in this area (we don’t need any confidential info about Maguuma), but I don’t see that happening.

Dante.1763:

Galphar.3901:

The way I look at is that NOTHING will get done to the traits system until after HoT drops and all the veterans go to roll Revenants and finally see how bad the current system is. Then they will bombard these forums with complaints about it and within 2 hrs of HoT going live Colin will be in here telling us exactly what they are going to do and they will have it fixed within a day.

But theyve already stated that they are going to do SOMETHING to the trait system. What? who knows, and thats the problem with this thread. We know they are going to do something, we dont know what they will do exactly.

The old thread was filled with veterans demanding the traits be changed, so your thoughts on that are wrong too.

Throwing raw hot dogs at a wall while cussing about the trait system could be called doing something about it.

My how is that what they do make our note like or was than anything like what its become, because honestly, they fixed it right to death and I have no idea why.

Is the trait system redesign being re-redesigned by the same person or persons who redesigned the original trait system?

Trait Speculation: *(Note still solely based on info regarding Mastery System as no info regarding Specializations or Skill progression has been released yet)

Traits System Release Time frame:
Options here are either
a) With the xpac (as part of it) which I don’t think Anet would actually do. Its just not practical and would 86 their game.
b) With the xpac (as in same launch date) which Anet has been known to do, but wold IMO be very ill advised. Too many new variables that a revamped trait system at that same time would be a nightmare
c) After xpac drops. Another horrible idea IMO as it means dragging a bad trait system into a new set of toons that many may try to make and be left with a bad taste in their mouths.
d) Before the xpac, and hopefully long enough before for both bugs to be worked out and feedback to be taken seriously AT THE TIME feedback is made and make any pertinent fixes before HoT drops.

What will the Trait System be?
My speculation is that it will be similar to other systems that we know, like the WvW tracks, etc. We get a set number of points that we can put into various levels of trait lines that offer up specific effects. This might drastically alter builds as we know them, but it might also afford us the granular control so many of us seem to crave.
Other speculations is that just like the WvW ranks, it will be account bound, but unlike them easily refundable.
Acquisition is still a question, but I’d hope that the points can be earned from a wide range of events and maps allowing players to play as they want and still get the traits they most want or all of them with enough gameplay.

I will be sad if ANet is reverting the trait system.

I have a lot of characters and the trait system is pretty much like a side quest or a distraction that keeps me entertained while I’m leveling them up. I feel rewarded when I gain a trait because it empowers me.

Without the trait system, all I will be doing is looking forward to is just get to the next level. It could use some tweaks and additions.

• I would love to get a mail that tells me to kill this boss, which rewards me a trait.

Speculation regarding the reveal of Traits 3.0

- Anet will first open up pre-purchase options many months before HoT release date.
- Options will include a 50 dollar basic set, an $80 deluxe set, and a $150 collector’s set.
- After they have X amount of dollars to secure their fiscal year, they will reveal Traits 3.0
- Our input and feedback will be met with months of silence, followed by the rare, “we hear you” post.
- No refunds

Maybe I’m wrong, but these are my speculations.

I sit here eating a delicious salad (no, not a Sylvari minion), reminiscing about the early days of the game and how fun and rewarding it was.

This was a time before the nerfing (drops, chests, farming) and the institution of the redesigned elements of the game we didn’t ask for: NPE, Dailies and Traits revamps.

I remember how truly fun it felt to start new alts, in every profession, and explore everything! Weapons, builds, the world and just feel so rewarded with loot.

That very first headstart day, the chest from the Shadow Behemoth event dropped so many shinies into my inventory that it nearly filled completely.

Black Lion Chest keys dropped by the ton! The chests themselves dropped one or more keys. It was thrilling to open chests of any kind, anywhere in the world.

I really miss those days, when the game just felt really great to play because it was truly fun and didn’t seem like a grind.

Playing the same content over and over, and getting the same lackluster drops ad nauseum, is a grind, and not fun.

Speculating, and asking for information, over and over, ad nauseum on the forums, is a grind, and not fun.

Games are supposed to be fun. This game used to be fun. The only thing that keeps my interest hanging by a thin thread these days, is that I really like my characters and WvW.

I’ve been taking a break, only logging in to retrieve the daily jingle box. That’s it. I gotta say, the games I’ve been playing outside of this one are actually fun.

I’ve missed that thrill of an actual great loot drop, whether it be gold or items. Playing other games has brought that feeling back, and it really feels good.

So good in fact, that when I do happen to think about playing beyond just logging into this game for the daily jingle box, that overwhelming ‘not fun’ feeling strikes and I just can’t do it anymore. The other games are just more fun right now, and Anet has the ‘we can’t talk about it’ communication policy, and the NPE, Traits 2 and Dailies 3 revamps to thank for that.

seabhac.5346:

I sit here eating a delicious salad (no, not a Sylvari minion), reminiscing about the early days of the game and how fun and rewarding it was.

This was a time before the nerfing (drops, chests, farming) and the institution of the redesigned elements of the game we didn’t ask for: NPE, Dailies and Traits revamps.

I remember how truly fun it felt to start new alts, in every profession, and explore everything! Weapons, builds, the world and just feel so rewarded with loot.

That very first headstart day, the chest from the Shadow Behemoth event dropped so many shinies into my inventory that it nearly filled completely.

Black Lion Chest keys dropped by the ton! The chests themselves dropped one or more keys. It was thrilling to open chests of any kind, anywhere in the world.

I really miss those days, when the game just felt really great to play because it was truly fun and didn’t seem like a grind.

Playing the same content over and over, and getting the same lackluster drops ad nauseum, is a grind, and not fun.

Speculating, and asking for information, over and over, ad nauseum on the forums, is a grind, and not fun.

Games are supposed to be fun. This game used to be fun. The only thing that keeps my interest hanging by a thin thread these days, is that I really like my characters and WvW.

I’ve been taking a break, only logging in to retrieve the daily jingle box. That’s it. I gotta say, the games I’ve been playing outside of this one are actually fun.

I’ve missed that thrill of an actual great loot drop, whether it be gold or items. Playing other games has brought that feeling back, and it really feels good.

So good in fact, that when I do happen to think about playing beyond just logging into this game for the daily jingle box, that overwhelming ‘not fun’ feeling strikes and I just can’t do it anymore. The other games are just more fun right now, and Anet has the ‘we can’t talk about it’ communication policy, and the NPE, Traits 2 and Dailies 3 revamps to thank for that.

From what I’m reading, NPE or trait revamp isn’t the reason why you aren’t having fun. You aren’t having fun because you aren’t getting large amount of new content.

I like NPE and trait revamp.

Welcome to month 11, folks! Eleven months is apparently not enough time to do something like reduce the cost of buying traits while they figure out how to “fix” it, whatever that means. It’s now been almost a month since we were told that the system would be fixed. I’m wondering if it’ll be another six months of silence, like last time.

Month 11? Soon the start of month 12 and of course the big anniversary in April. I wonder if some kind of ingame gathering is in order? A party, or perhaps a wake.

I certainly wouldn’t mind holding a funeral for the current system. I imagine turn out will be high, just to prod it and make sure it has shuffled off the mortal coil.

I’m still hopeful a better system will be in place (I’d say it can’t get worse, but I’d hate for some to see that as a challenge to be accepted). I’m still largely optimistic and feel more valued than before, but the shine wears thin a little. Ultimately, I still see less reason to just log in and play. But then I’m a chronic altoholic in all these sort of games.

If all we can do is sit and wait, I feel a fair few would wait elsewhere, and not bother to return to the party.

runeblade.7514:

seabhac.5346:

I sit here eating a delicious salad (no, not a Sylvari minion), reminiscing about the early days of the game and how fun and rewarding it was.

This was a time before the nerfing (drops, chests, farming) and the institution of the redesigned elements of the game we didn’t ask for: NPE, Dailies and Traits revamps.

I remember how truly fun it felt to start new alts, in every profession, and explore everything! Weapons, builds, the world and just feel so rewarded with loot.

That very first headstart day, the chest from the Shadow Behemoth event dropped so many shinies into my inventory that it nearly filled completely.

Black Lion Chest keys dropped by the ton! The chests themselves dropped one or more keys. It was thrilling to open chests of any kind, anywhere in the world.

I really miss those days, when the game just felt really great to play because it was truly fun and didn’t seem like a grind.

Playing the same content over and over, and getting the same lackluster drops ad nauseum, is a grind, and not fun.

Speculating, and asking for information, over and over, ad nauseum on the forums, is a grind, and not fun.

Games are supposed to be fun. This game used to be fun. The only thing that keeps my interest hanging by a thin thread these days, is that I really like my characters and WvW.

I’ve been taking a break, only logging in to retrieve the daily jingle box. That’s it. I gotta say, the games I’ve been playing outside of this one are actually fun.

I’ve missed that thrill of an actual great loot drop, whether it be gold or items. Playing other games has brought that feeling back, and it really feels good.

So good in fact, that when I do happen to think about playing beyond just logging into this game for the daily jingle box, that overwhelming ‘not fun’ feeling strikes and I just can’t do it anymore. The other games are just more fun right now, and Anet has the ‘we can’t talk about it’ communication policy, and the NPE, Traits 2 and Dailies 3 revamps to thank for that.

From what I’m reading, NPE or trait revamp isn’t the reason why you aren’t having fun. You aren’t having fun because you aren’t getting large amount of new content.

I like NPE and trait revamp.

I think its obvious what he said and its not about content. Its about the changes they have made since launch that made this game not as fun as it was at launch. I feel exactly the same. The nerfs to all the rewards to increase grind and the change of core systems mostly to increase grind have ruined the game for me. Its just not fun anymore.

Sure more content helps but the issues to me is that on the outside the game still looks the same. Same pretty graphics, same fast paced combat. But the heart of the game is not about just roaming around and getting decent rewards for doing what ever you want or feel like doing. You can still do what ever you want but you don’t get the same rewards that you did at launch. I used to level my guys by roaming around and going to the places I liked. If I did that now I would not be anywhere near the same level of power at level as I was on my first few characters. I would not have all my traits and skills like I did on my first guys. I would not have the level of gear and currency. If I EotM train my way to level 80 I might be close to the same rewards but then I’m not just roaming around doing what I want.

Many people don’t mind all of these changes but to me it makes the game feel like a different game. A game I would not have bought. It might not be as grindy as some Asian grinders but it is still extremely more grindy than it was at launch. Sure some more content is always welcome but It doesn’t fix the core systems they ruined for me. And neither does them telling me they hear us and are doing something. For all I know the next system is going to force me to do even more things I don’t want to do. I don’t understand why they can’t just suck up their pride and roll back all these garbage changes to the things that people did not have issues with. Then they can go back to adding content with out breaking those systems.

I hated that some of the trait hunts are bound to “time dependent” events, such as the ones in Orr (ie. defeat the high priest, defeat the grenth priest, defend the lyssa temple, etc.) Hate those things. You have to realize that some players have more than 2 characters at level 80s that need those traits. For me it’s not just one character waiting for 3 separate events, it’s 10 characters I have to trait hunt, and that’s 90 gold if I decided to buy all the traits.

Not that I hate the trait hunt system overall. I once hated the trait hunts at first, but somehow, I appreciate that it encourages players, new and veteran players alike, to explore the world of Tyria. For instance, I didn’t know there was an underwater obstacle course. I was irritated by the design at first (died multiple times) and being “forced” to do it (yeah I know, I could buy the skills, but decided to try hunting the traits to save some money), but by and by I got good at the obstacle course, at the end I felt satisfied after finishing it. I also discovered there are these “mini-dungeons” scattered across Tyria. I like the trait hunt system, but please “polish” it a little bit more and tone down the difficulty, or atleast tweak it to be more fair. One suggestion I could think of is that map completion of certain starter areas unlocks the basic traits for a specific trait line (ie. completion of Metrica Province unlocks traits I-VI in the power based trait line).

Also, ahem, let’s be frank, alot of players jump on to EotM to level up fast. The new stat gain system gimps new players and it further diminishes their usefulness in WvW. Although players are “upleveled” to level 80 stats, the stats from their traits boost or supplement that base stat. With the new trait system, a level 50-60 fighter today is comparatively weaker than to an uplevel fighter before the changes.

It’s really simple, just revert the trait back to what it used to be but:

-Make it so we gain back 1 trait point per level starting at level 11.
-No more unlocking traits, that was a horrible decision with horrible consequences, people ended up with few traits unlocked and poor knowledge of their class and people were incentivized to rush to level 80 because otherwise you are basically useless.
-Keep the free trait respec outside combat free (this was seriously the only good thing that came with the change)
-Reintroduce the cost to unlock trait tiers (so class trainers don’t become usless once again).
-Make it so that once you are level 80 1 click to assign a trait point puts 5 instead of one (making it so we have to click less for the same thing, and newcomers don’t have to suffer because of that, you please both camps).

Nemitri.8172:

It’s really simple, just revert the trait back to what it used to be but:

-Make it so we gain back 1 trait point per level starting at level 11.
-No more unlocking traits, that was a horrible decision with horrible consequences, people ended up with few traits unlocked and poor knowledge of their class and people were incentivized to rush to level 80 because otherwise you are basically useless.
-Keep the free trait respec outside combat free (this was seriously the only good thing that came with the change)
-Reintroduce the cost to unlock trait tiers (so class trainers don’t become usless once again).
-Make it so that once you are level 80 1 click to assign a trait point puts 5 instead of one (making it so we have to click less for the same thing, and newcomers don’t have to suffer because of that, you please both camps).

In the old system if you assigned traits it would allocate the trait points needed. So you really didn’t need to click that much. I agree with everything else. Roll back to the original trait system but leave the respec button. They could leave the new grandmaster traits attached to tasks but I would not have them attached to any timed events or event chains that are dependent on special circumstances.

Nemitri.8172:

It’s really simple, just revert the trait back to what it used to be but:

-Make it so we gain back 1 trait point per level starting at level 11.
-No more unlocking traits, that was a horrible decision with horrible consequences, people ended up with few traits unlocked and poor knowledge of their class and people were incentivized to rush to level 80 because otherwise you are basically useless.
-Keep the free trait respec outside combat free (this was seriously the only good thing that came with the change)
-Reintroduce the cost to unlock trait tiers (so class trainers don’t become usless once again).
-Make it so that once you are level 80 1 click to assign a trait point puts 5 instead of one (making it so we have to click less for the same thing, and newcomers don’t have to suffer because of that, you please both camps).

I agree with reverting to the original Traits system and keeping the XIII traits as unlocked through tasks. The free trait respec would probably have to be reverted as well because it was a gold sink for A-Net. They replaced that gold sink with the buying of traits. If we revert then they would need a replacement gold sink. I say go back to the original costs for trait respec and just make it so you can do it anywhere while not in combat. Giving us the option to select 1 or 5 trait points per click would be a nice addition also.

Some personal preferences, but I’m not liking the ideas of different tiers having different unlocks. Like first tier of traits being free, and doing tasks for the rest, any of them. I like consistency and it’s beautiful when things works nicely. :/

…and I don’t of course like doing any sort of tasks to get to things either, since I dislike so many things. The original system with even the new traits included and free trait reset would be amazing. Well, one can at least dream of things not being locked away.

Yesterday I was looking at traits for my eles and for the first time even looked at one of the new traits. I would have to beat Karka Queen if I remember right, to get it without paying. I… don’t want to touch anything that requires a group, or champion fights and above, ever.
High end battles are just something I don’t want to have anything to do with. Which reminds that these days I actually have this mental image of the whole game as zerg fest on timer. Although I’m not an expert on how things are since I never ever go near any world boss or farm locations other than by accident, I don’t even want to know about these things unless I find them by myself. Even then I have no interest in the fights, just getting out of the way. But that’s different topic. Just rambling. Personal preferences…

(goes to have quiet 11 month party all alone)

As an alt-aholic, after about a year with no new toons, I recently bought 2 new slots & alls I have to say is WOW. This trait system is the worst I’ve ever seen in 10 years of gaming.
I leveled 1 toon with, tomes, crafting, & a touch of eotm.
The 2nd, will stay where it is for now and not be played. And she’s totally ghimped, lacking traits….
I want to buy more slots but, I will not buy another slot until the system is fixed.
What a horrible experience leveling is now. Hitting a level means nothing & feels completely unrewarding.
at least REVERT for now…..

ps. and yeah the word ghimped is misspelled due to filter. How is that a bad word…?

From Dictionary.com

Usually Disparaging and Offensive. a term used to refer to a person who limps or is lame.

So offensive term.

The problem you describe seems to have more to do with power leveling a new character to max through ways that didn’t let you either encounter the unlock missions as you play or naturally accrue SP and gold for that character. I believe the new trait system was only examined in terms of normal play and leveling, not rapid alt creation.

Naz.2607:

at least REVERT for now…..

You’re repeating a plea that numerous others have been making for 10 months now. I’m sorry to say that I don’t think it’s happening. Would be nice, though.

Behellagh.1468:

The problem you describe seems to have more to do with power leveling a new character to max through ways that didn’t let you either encounter the unlock missions as you play or naturally accrue SP and gold for that character. I believe the new trait system was only examined in terms of normal play and leveling, not rapid alt creation.

Except that even after taking my character through the normal play you described I was still at only four or five traits. Even after taking it through 100% map completion it was still missing 20+ traits. I don’t think his experience can be chalked up to a power leveling issue. Traits are an absolute nuisance.

Behellagh.1468:

From Dictionary.com

Usually Disparaging and Offensive. a term used to refer to a person who limps or is lame.

So offensive term.

The problem you describe seems to have more to do with power leveling a new character to max through ways that didn’t let you either encounter the unlock missions as you play or naturally accrue SP and gold for that character. I believe the new trait system was only examined in terms of normal play and leveling, not rapid alt creation.

I leveled my ‘NPE ele’ without resorting to power leveling. When she hit 80, she had unlocked 11 traits and had 23 skill points. I chronicled her adventures attempting to unlock traits in the old traits thread. It is an epic tale and would make a great movie.

Tachenon.5270:

Behellagh.1468:

From Dictionary.com

Usually Disparaging and Offensive. a term used to refer to a person who limps or is lame.

So offensive term.

The problem you describe seems to have more to do with power leveling a new character to max through ways that didn’t let you either encounter the unlock missions as you play or naturally accrue SP and gold for that character. I believe the new trait system was only examined in terms of normal play and leveling, not rapid alt creation.

I leveled my ‘NPE ele’ without resorting to power leveling. When she hit 80, she had unlocked 11 traits and had 23 skill points. I chronicled her adventures attempting to unlock traits in the old traits thread. It is an epic tale and would make a great movie.

Yeah a few of us made NPE toons to get as close to the “full leveling experience” as possible. i even took all my gold and about 90% of my level 1-5 mats and put them in a second guild bank just to keep it out of my hands while leveling.

It was fairly unpleasant and i literally lucked into a build that works well, but that necro has ZERO build flexibility. Sure I’m still map opening with her, but I’ve not gotten many new traits since she hit level 80. maybe 2 at most.

In either case, the new “simpler” trait system is coming…at some point…

Still no idea when. Or what it will look like. Or if we will see it in live with enough time to help steer it. Or if they even plan on telling us more about IT as opposed to repackaging the info we already know about the xpac as “deep dives”.

Yeah, don’t think that one has gone unnoticed.

At the end of the day all we know is the same thing they told us MONTHS ago. There is a new system in the works that they can’t talk about yet, nor give us an ETA on it seems. Only now, since suggestions were becoming redundant in the old thread we have this new shiny thread to speculate on the new system that we knew was coming months ago in the first place. So, yay.

Nemitri.8172:

-No more unlocking traits, that was a horrible decision with horrible consequences, people ended up with few traits unlocked and poor knowledge of their class and people were incentivized to rush to level 80 because otherwise you are basically useless.

Part of the fun of the original trait system was experimenting with the traits to find a build that suited you.
with the current setup we are indeed hindered to gain that insight/knowledge..
Further I like to add that I don’t even rush;I take my time to finish each map.
At the moment I’m at 60 something % worldcompletion on my newest character
I bought 3 traits because otherwise I would still have many empty trait slots at lvl 80
still have 1 or 2 empty at this point.And any other I unlock i fill,no matter what the trait is
its better than no trait at all..

I think atm some of the traits are linked to world event bosses?
This is a poor choice as it is against the philosophy that we can choose to do dynamic events or skip them.If we then miss the event we miss on the skill without even knowing,thus we have to figure out which traits are linked to which bosses..but that I find that even more annoying as playing “where is waldo?” on the map to find the 1 last POI i missed.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

They could leave the new grandmaster traits attached to tasks but I would not have them attached to any timed events or event chains that are dependent on special circumstances.

Trait system like the old way for original game (free to experiment with trait builds,then in the expansions you can unlock traits by besting challenges,which makes your character further unique)
I think new Hot traits should be indeed attached/relocated to a meaningful and logical instanced mission,keeping the context in which you aquire the trait in mind.
When it comes to new traits in HOT localization is very important
New necromancer traits ->some corrupted place
New guardian traits ->Ancient tomb of a once good king,some benevolent place

traits are qualities of a person’s character,profession is part of what defines our character.
So if there are to be Npc mentors that have special missions waiting for you it is important that the location and trait mentors possess as a price match.
Like there could be a necromancer mentor with a trait that will allow you to summon a special minion (related trait for necromancer) This takes place at a gigantic ancient graveyard in the jungle.(location/context)
Wouldn’t it be logical that in order to hone your quilities you need to go to the right place/and people

Bernie.8674:

Behellagh.1468:

The problem you describe seems to have more to do with power leveling a new character to max through ways that didn’t let you either encounter the unlock missions as you play or naturally accrue SP and gold for that character. I believe the new trait system was only examined in terms of normal play and leveling, not rapid alt creation.

Except that even after taking my character through the normal play you described I was still at only four or five traits. Even after taking it through 100% map completion it was still missing 20+ traits. I don’t think his experience can be chalked up to a power leveling issue. Traits are an absolute nuisance.

yeah i made a new chr to test it out, i specifically worked hard to get traits, a normal play through wont get you many traits at all. There is a lot of players who came to the game last year, and stilll do not have all the traits to this day. They have level 80s with blanks still in their trait boxes.

Didn’t say it was a good system. I just said they didn’t look at it from someone who quickly levels alts.

Behellagh.1468:

Didn’t say it was a good system. I just said they didn’t look at it from someone who quickly levels alts.

I don’t think they looked at it from anyone’s perspective. They took one piece of feedback (“I miss hunting for elites in GW1!”) and ran with it to the soul-crushing extreme we have now.

Behellagh.1468:

Didn’t say it was a good system. I just said they didn’t look at it from someone who quickly levels alts.

Or from anyone at all. Within a couple of months of starting my character in GW1 I had all the skills unlocked (including elites). I didn’t get GW2 until after the trait update, and I have yet to unlock all the traits on a single character (I have 5 level 80s with 100% map completion on one of them). Sometimes I’ll go out of my way to try and pick up a trait, but it’s really slow going. Some of these are just not going to happen. For example, I’m never going to befriend the ogres in WvW. The trait isn’t holding me back from doing the stuff I want, so it’s just going to remain locked. Maybe it would have been good in some experimental build, but I’m never going to know. GW1 was all about experimentation with skills. This game seems to completely discourage it. Maybe that’s as intended. Having everyone locked into a single build certainly makes balancing the game much easier.

Soooooo, basically looks like game dev on the new content (specifically the new class and for that matter most like the specializations) is all being done with what looks like the current trait system.

So, this means that:

a) the new “simpler” system isn’t actually going to be very different in use, but perhaps in obtaining them which begs the question “why is it not out yet”?
b) there is no plan to get this new trait system (which they said they’ve been working on for some time now) done and ready before HoT drops

Note, this is speculation based in part on today’s POI.

Yeah…I’m really seeing no reason to even try the beta at this point.