Guild Wars 2

Well, I’m seeing 300 posts in this new thread, but nothing that actually tells me what to expect from the new trait system, just a lot of opinions and speculation like in the old thread.

What do we actually know about the new trait system?

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Soooooo, basically looks like game dev on the new content (specifically the new class and for that matter most like the specializations) is all being done with what looks like the current trait system.

So, this means that:

a) the new “simpler” system isn’t actually going to be very different in use, but perhaps in obtaining them which begs the question “why is it not out yet”?
b) there is no plan to get this new trait system (which they said they’ve been working on for some time now) done and ready before HoT drops

Note, this is speculation based in part on today’s POI.

Yeah…I’m really seeing no reason to even try the beta at this point.

Keep in mind the new system may not be 100% complete, thus cant be used on their internal environment yet, which is probably where the game video we’ve been seeing has been recorded.

Majic.4801:

Well, I’m seeing 300 posts in this new thread, but nothing that actually tells me what to expect from the new trait system, just a lot of opinions and speculation like in the old thread.

What do we actually know about the new trait system?

Not a thing. They won’t tell us jack squat other than that they’re going to ‘simplify’ it, whatever the fritz that even come or actually meaning.

seabhac.5346:

I sit here eating a delicious salad (no, not a Sylvari minion), reminiscing about the early days of the game and how fun and rewarding it was.

This was a time before the nerfing (drops, chests, farming) and the institution of the redesigned elements of the game we didn’t ask for: NPE, Dailies and Traits revamps.

I remember how truly fun it felt to start new alts, in every profession, and explore everything! Weapons, builds, the world and just feel so rewarded with loot.

That very first headstart day, the chest from the Shadow Behemoth event dropped so many shinies into my inventory that it nearly filled completely.

Black Lion Chest keys dropped by the ton! The chests themselves dropped one or more keys. It was thrilling to open chests of any kind, anywhere in the world.

I really miss those days, when the game just felt really great to play because it was truly fun and didn’t seem like a grind.

Playing the same content over and over, and getting the same lackluster drops ad nauseum, is a grind, and not fun.

Speculating, and asking for information, over and over, ad nauseum on the forums, is a grind, and not fun.

Games are supposed to be fun. This game used to be fun. The only thing that keeps my interest hanging by a thin thread these days, is that I really like my characters and WvW.

I’ve been taking a break, only logging in to retrieve the daily jingle box. That’s it. I gotta say, the games I’ve been playing outside of this one are actually fun.

I’ve missed that thrill of an actual great loot drop, whether it be gold or items. Playing other games has brought that feeling back, and it really feels good.

So good in fact, that when I do happen to think about playing beyond just logging into this game for the daily jingle box, that overwhelming ‘not fun’ feeling strikes and I just can’t do it anymore. The other games are just more fun right now, and Anet has the ‘we can’t talk about it’ communication policy, and the NPE, Traits 2 and Dailies 3 revamps to thank for that.

This is, word for word, how I feel.
Just to add to the loot thing: other games also have crazy rare drops, but you know what? These things actually drop, without the need to throw gold down the toilet. And when they do – even if your not the one that gets to loot it, it’s still fun because you get that “holy cow the sword of thousand truths just dropped!!!!!!111111” excitement, instead of “oh, look at all the blues my bags are filled with”. Point being, GW2 has become Grind Wars 2, with no actual reward for anything.

It is just beyond time to say something about what is going to be changed. It was ridiculous that we waited for four months to get acknowledgement that our feedback was being heard by anyone official at ANET, and then another five months on top of that before we heard that traits were, in fact, going to be changed. For sure. And now we’re heading into a weekend, with no further word about the system, after a month of further silence.

Anet, all you had to do was reduce the cost of traits while you were figuring out what to do next. That’s it. That would have solved so many problems. The fact that it still hasn’t happened isn’t instilling me with any confidence in the new-new system. Not even a teensy, tiny, bit.

83 pages (90, counting this thread), over 10 months, and smoke and mirrors is the best you can muster? Really?

Aidan Savage.2078:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Soooooo, basically looks like game dev on the new content … is all being done with what looks like the current trait system.

Keep in mind the new system may not be 100% complete, thus cant be used on their internal environment yet, which is probably where the game video we’ve been seeing has been recorded.

Eh, I kinda lean towards them using the same basic trait structure. It seems strange to me that they would use the old system (even if for a place-holder) on the beta and then make a point to show it off in the PoI.

The basic structure is not bad – I like the idea, just not the implementation. And let me be clear – the current implementation is flat out horrible. It does not promote experimentation, nor are the majority of forum-posters finding it ‘fun’.

So I would be fine if the basic structure is similar, but with more realistic goals or at the very least (very, very least) account bound. I think it likely that there will be more to it than just that, but even that is a step forward and something they could do right now I am thinking as a bandage? (I’m saying this without knowing what that entails). Throw us a bone until the real thing is rolled out?

I’ve not been a fan of the new traits system for a long time, but I’ve been patient. Since the announcement of HoT and that they are re-vamping the traits I was excited and happy for a week or so. I figured that a lot of the silence was tied into the expansion announcement. Now that we know about HoT, we still have a huge wall of silence we keep banging our heads against and my patience is turning into a slow simmer that is souring me on this whole mess like it hasn’t before. Yes, we get it – it’s not done. But for the love of Pete, please give us something. Give us a rough estimate, a few of your thoughts – something. This was handled so very poorly.

Aidan Savage.2078:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Soooooo, basically looks like game dev on the new content (specifically the new class and for that matter most like the specializations) is all being done with what looks like the current trait system.

So, this means that:

a) the new “simpler” system isn’t actually going to be very different in use, but perhaps in obtaining them which begs the question “why is it not out yet”?
b) there is no plan to get this new trait system (which they said they’ve been working on for some time now) done and ready before HoT drops

Note, this is speculation based in part on today’s POI.

Yeah…I’m really seeing no reason to even try the beta at this point.

Keep in mind the new system may not be 100% complete, thus cant be used on their internal environment yet, which is probably where the game video we’ve been seeing has been recorded.

That’s kinda my point here. Once again, they went to the trouble of saying something is coming (again, even though already knew that from a post ages ago in the original trait thread), but nothing is ACTUALLY ready and probably won’t be until after launch of HoT, which for me, is utter nonsense.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Aidan Savage.2078:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Soooooo, basically looks like game dev on the new content (specifically the new class and for that matter most like the specializations) is all being done with what looks like the current trait system.

So, this means that:

a) the new “simpler” system isn’t actually going to be very different in use, but perhaps in obtaining them which begs the question “why is it not out yet”?
b) there is no plan to get this new trait system (which they said they’ve been working on for some time now) done and ready before HoT drops

Note, this is speculation based in part on today’s POI.

Yeah…I’m really seeing no reason to even try the beta at this point.

Keep in mind the new system may not be 100% complete, thus cant be used on their internal environment yet, which is probably where the game video we’ve been seeing has been recorded.

That’s kinda my point here. Once again, they went to the trouble of saying something is coming (again, even though already knew that from a post ages ago in the original trait thread), but nothing is ACTUALLY ready and probably won’t be until after launch of HoT, which for me, is utter nonsense.

It’s Hamster Wheel 2.0

I see the same thing happening here as in the other thread. That, of course, begs the question of why they even bothered with this newest discussion. As I see it, and I appear to not be the only one scratching my head, there isn’t anything to talk about.

If you create a thread (like the first Trait Feedback megathread) with the intent to have dialogue with your playerbase about change and upcoming features..then have a presence at the table. If you do not have any intention of communicating in a meaningful way, or at all, and have no plans to discuss anything meaningful about your plans for change, then creating a thread about it is pointless. There is no discussion value.

Additionally, I think the Trait 1.0 thread was the perfect example to illustrate this. Was nothing learned? I am trying to be constructive here and look at this in a “moving forward” way, rather than a “let’s just repeat what we did in that other thread and leave the community twisting in the wind again” way. Is it possible to move past this model of non-communication to gain traction in a more positive, and illuminating 2-way dialogue?

From observation, and trying to be constructive again, all I’m reading are hundreds of additional community discussion points that revolve around slight confusion, and more building frustration. That, as I see it, is not a solid or positive base to build a reciprocal conversation on. From reading, your players want to talk about this. They want to give suggestions, and they’d like to know if it’s worth their time to do so, given the lack of basic acknowledgement to their contributions.

My suggestion is simply to avoid the mistakes of the past and move forward so the community feels there is value in this thread and what they say. Please do not let it go on for months without meaningful interaction. That has already been done.

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

I have to say I regret having read this thread…it’s quite depressing. But I am glad that I will have all the confirmed Revenant gear already crafted at ascended and that I will insta-80 it as soon as it’s made, and that come hell or high water, I WILL buy every single trait that I possibly can, no matter what system may come about in the meantime.

And I am thankful that my 8 mains of the other professions are already all made and geared ascended, with all their traits and utilities and weapon skills already unlocked. The part about skill points becoming rare puts the fear into me btw… I have to go searching for 20 for augur stones… and cringe when i gotta burn 50 scrolls for a eldritch scroll

sorudo.9054:

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

I don’t think people care anymore about that. I think they care more about the time it took to fix.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Perhaps it’s premature to discuss traits at all. If you feel that’s the case, please simply step away from the subject until you have enough on which to base a meaningful post.

[…]

At this point, if you would care to discuss the topic of traits, please feel free to post.

Think it’s time for a reminder about the point of the thread, as well as gaile’s reminder to back away from the thread if you dont have anything meaningful to contribute.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Perhaps it’s premature to discuss traits at all. If you feel that’s the case, please simply step away from the subject until you have enough on which to base a meaningful post.

[…]

At this point, if you would care to discuss the topic of traits, please feel free to post.

Think it’s time for a reminder about the point of the thread, as well as gaile’s reminder to back away from the thread if you dont have anything meaningful to contribute.

This is getting really meta for me, but is the above post considered meaningful and on-topic?

Did we ever receive clarification on what there actually is to discuss that could not have been safely covered in the original thread? These are genuine questions that I legitimately do not know the answers to. Thanks in advance.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

I don’t think people care anymore about that. I think they care more about the time it took to fix.

i think people are most concerned with knowing exactly what it is, and giving feedback on it before it becomes set in stone, and they have to wait a year for a revision.

basically they dont want to be stuck with a bad system for a year, like the past has shown us is a possibility when the devs dont get feedback

phys.7689:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

I don’t think people care anymore about that. I think they care more about the time it took to fix.

i think people are most concerned with knowing exactly what it is, and giving feedback on it before it becomes set in stone, and they have to wait a year for a revision.

basically they dont want to be stuck with a bad system for a year, like the past has shown us is a possibility when the devs dont get feedback

I wouldn’t say the devs didn’t get any feedback after the 83 page 10+ month old thread we gave them before this 7 page 1 month old thread. It seems more likely that our feedback was ignored.

Galphar.3901:

phys.7689:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

I don’t think people care anymore about that. I think they care more about the time it took to fix.

i think people are most concerned with knowing exactly what it is, and giving feedback on it before it becomes set in stone, and they have to wait a year for a revision.

basically they dont want to be stuck with a bad system for a year, like the past has shown us is a possibility when the devs dont get feedback

I wouldn’t say the devs didn’t get any feedback after the 83 page 10+ month old thread we gave them before this 7 page 1 month old thread. It seems more likely that our feedback was ignored.

i mean people want to give feedback on whatever this new system is, BEFORE its released. AND they expect anet to act on that feedback before the system is law.

Galphar.3901:

phys.7689:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

I don’t think people care anymore about that. I think they care more about the time it took to fix.

i think people are most concerned with knowing exactly what it is, and giving feedback on it before it becomes set in stone, and they have to wait a year for a revision.

basically they dont want to be stuck with a bad system for a year, like the past has shown us is a possibility when the devs dont get feedback

I wouldn’t say the devs didn’t get any feedback after the 83 page 10+ month old thread we gave them before this 7 page 1 month old thread. It seems more likely that our feedback was ignored.

No, what phys is saying is that the first new trait system was implemented without gathering any feedback first, and it seems prudent to avoid making that mistake again.

Other than speculating and exposing our wishes, there’s nothing we can really do with the informations we have now.

I don’t know if you discussed about all this here, (sorry couldn’t read everything) but what I am waiting for, since they made the trait respec free last year, is more about build diversity and easily switch between different kind of builds in different situations :

1 – Templates like in GW1
I guess everybody agrees with that, and I really think it may be coming soon !
It makes sense since specializations are not permanent.

2 – Detach Traits and Stats
I want to be able to chose my traits without having to select specific stats for that. The idea wasn’t really bad at first (although not particularly interesting), but it is so poorly executed that I just want to get rid of this system that doesn’t make sense anymore. It is important to keep the trait lines, but I don’t want to have stats tied to them.
Once traits and stats are separated they could totally create/eliminate/rebalance some stats to put an end to the zerker meta and create dependencies between characters to bring back teamplay and roles in a party without having to go back to a pure trinity system. (also reworking healing skills and dodging will be important for that)

Then we should be able to select our stats otherwise, and NEVER have two of them tied together ! (currently we have 2 stats per trait line) It cripples build diversity and participates into making characters autonomous which is one of the things that lead to the zerker meta. (you know, different roles in a party=group coordination=dependencies between characters != autonomous characters)
So trait points and stat points would be two different things.

Sadly, as we saw the Revenant’s trait page in the PoI of this week, everything seems to have stayed the same. But there is a chance they just didn’t want to show us some of the changes they made before they announce them. I still have hope !

3 – Skill points to buy Traits
We have TONS of skillpoints that we are not using. We should be able to buy traits with them. It would be cool if it was one possibility among others (those which already exist could be kept).

On the subject of skill points to buy traits – it depends on the cost. At the moment the skill points cost is the most prohibitive part of the cost to buy them – to unlock all traits for a character costs more skill points than there are skill challenges on the map. Add that to the cost of unlocking skills, it can be prohibitive at the moment.

Some do have tons of skill points not in use, some don’t, and with the current sp cost, they likely won’t have tons for long. It’s a question of balance there. At the moment, and for many it is just too high.

Wolfheart.1879:

On the subject of skill points to buy traits – it depends on the cost. At the moment the skill points cost is the most prohibitive part of the cost to buy them – to unlock all traits for a character costs more skill points than there are skill challenges on the map. Add that to the cost of unlocking skills, it can be prohibitive at the moment.

Some do have tons of skill points not in use, some don’t, and with the current sp cost, they likely won’t have tons for long. It’s a question of balance there. At the moment, and for many it is just too high.

The question though, is whether it’s truly necessary to have ALL of a given class’s traits at the same time. Find the traits that you look like you’ll want for your build once you reach 80, and work on obtaining those. Find traits that may work better? Go unlock them. You arent required to buy any of the traits. If you have the gold and skill points, sure you can, but it’s not a requirement to buy them.

Additionally, skill points are hardly the difficult thing to come across as you depict. Events such as silverwastes, Teq, and the “krait lab” event near teq, have enough champion bags as loot, that you could potentially walk away with dozens of skill point scrolls in an afternoon.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Wolfheart.1879:

On the subject of skill points to buy traits – it depends on the cost. At the moment the skill points cost is the most prohibitive part of the cost to buy them – to unlock all traits for a character costs more skill points than there are skill challenges on the map. Add that to the cost of unlocking skills, it can be prohibitive at the moment.

Some do have tons of skill points not in use, some don’t, and with the current sp cost, they likely won’t have tons for long. It’s a question of balance there. At the moment, and for many it is just too high.

The question though, is whether it’s truly necessary to have ALL of a given class’s traits at the same time. Find the traits that you look like you’ll want for your build once you reach 80, and work on obtaining those. Find traits that may work better? Go unlock them. You arent required to buy any of the traits. If you have the gold and skill points, sure you can, but it’s not a requirement to buy them.

Additionally, skill points are hardly the difficult thing to come across as you depict. Events such as silverwastes, Teq, and the “krait lab” event near teq, have enough champion bags as loot, that you could potentially walk away with dozens of skill point scrolls in an afternoon.

If it’s not necessary to have them, the game shouldn’t have given all the traits to us for the first two years of release. And having accounts grandfathered in shouldn’t have been a thing, also, if it is truly unnecessary, and not a big deal to unlock them.

If I’d made my characters post trait-change and I wanted to buy access to even HALF of their traits, it would cost me almost 2000 skill points. I want to say 1960 was the exact number. I’ve never even had a full stack of skill scrolls.

And honestly, the argument that traits aren’t necessary for a complete character is just terrible because it makes the entire build system seem superfluous, which it isn’t.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Wolfheart.1879:

On the subject of skill points to buy traits – it depends on the cost. At the moment the skill points cost is the most prohibitive part of the cost to buy them – to unlock all traits for a character costs more skill points than there are skill challenges on the map. Add that to the cost of unlocking skills, it can be prohibitive at the moment.

Some do have tons of skill points not in use, some don’t, and with the current sp cost, they likely won’t have tons for long. It’s a question of balance there. At the moment, and for many it is just too high.

The question though, is whether it’s truly necessary to have ALL of a given class’s traits at the same time. Find the traits that you look like you’ll want for your build once you reach 80, and work on obtaining those. Find traits that may work better? Go unlock them. You arent required to buy any of the traits. If you have the gold and skill points, sure you can, but it’s not a requirement to buy them.

Additionally, skill points are hardly the difficult thing to come across as you depict. Events such as silverwastes, Teq, and the “krait lab” event near teq, have enough champion bags as loot, that you could potentially walk away with dozens of skill point scrolls in an afternoon.

Indeed. The best option is to just buy the traits you absolutely need. Saves costs, and no downsides. It’s not as if build experimentation should be something to be encouraged, is it?

Slight snark aside, part of the fun should be finding things you enjoy, and work well for you. For the player who relies on theorycrafting alone, and just sticks to what is best, then sure, thats all they need do. For those who like to mess around and just have fun with it, then I feel they would want them all unlocked. As for unlocking them via the game, thats fine to do, but becomes more and more a chore with multiple alts.

The costs are prohibitive to a great many, i feel, especially with other things used with that currency. Yes, they can be farmed, but that doesn’t mean the costs as they stand aren’t pretty extortionate for many. If traits do become account-wide, there will be less of an issue there. Don’t get me wrong, i feel things need to be earned one way or another, but the current paywall behind traits, combined with the huge time/effort to unlock them all makes it prohibitive for players who have multiple characters, whether for different professions or other reasons. I hope the new system alleviates that.

I’ve had no issues with the current system, despite having leveled (and currently leveling) several characters after the change. The first, my mesmer, I knew exactly what I wanted to do, and exactly what traits she’d need. Unfortunately, since she basically went from 1-80 in LA, none of her traits were unlocked, but it wasnt much to simply buy the traits she needed and couldnt be unlocked easily. My latest one, a thief, I only have a general idea what she’s going to be doing, so traits are the least of my concern, with the biggest concern being figuring out exactly what I want her to do, how to do it, the skills to use for it, and then FINALLY, the traits to improve all the above. Beyond that, I’ll see if there’s anything worth tweaking and then go get those traits too.

@Guhracie, I said it’s not entirely necessary to have ALL of a character’s given traits. There are some traits that, no matter how much experimenting you do, you simply wont ever use, let alone give a second glance. The mesmer’s mirror anguish or whatever it’s called, is in my opinion, such a niche trait, that I would rarely find a use for it, making it a useless trait, thus one I wouldnt bother buying. I’d have to take a look at them, but most traits shouldnt take that long to unlock, particularly the event ones.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Think it’s time for a reminder about the point of the thread, as well as gaile’s reminder to back away from the thread if you dont have anything meaningful to contribute.

I think it’s time for a reminder that there is nothing meaningful to discuss. So, if there’s nothing meaningful to discuss, that’s like Anet telling us to be quiet and sit in the corner until our time-out is done. Is that meaningful enough to discuss?

Seriously – what can we actually contribute at this point? Do they have an idea they are just polishing right now, or are they in the middle of it and not sure of what direction to take it? I’d have different input for wither of those situations, but without knowing even what kind of feedback they are looking for, it’s just busy-work to make us feel better that we are being heard. Promise.

So yeah, I do think this type of contribution is meaningful. I mean to make my frustration and anger clear.

Also – skill points may be plentiful and overflowing now, but they are taking away one of our ways to earn skill points. I also think people might begin to value skill points a bit more highly as precursor crafting might become more widespread. So yeah – skill points are steep but manageable right now, I don’t foresee that continuing into the future.

Ojyh.9842:

Other than speculating and exposing our wishes, there’s nothing we can really do with the informations we have now.

I don’t know if you discussed about all this here, (sorry couldn’t read everything) but what I am waiting for, since they made the trait respec free last year, is more about build diversity and easily switch between different kind of builds in different situations :

1 – Templates like in GW1
I guess everybody agrees with that, and I really think it may be coming soon !
It makes sense since specializations are not permanent.

2 – Detach Traits and Stats
I want to be able to chose my traits without having to select specific stats for that. The idea wasn’t really bad at first (although not particularly interesting), but it is so poorly executed that I just want to get rid of this system that doesn’t make sense anymore. It is important to keep the trait lines, but I don’t want to have stats tied to them.
Once traits and stats are separated they could totally create/eliminate/rebalance some stats to put an end to the zerker meta and create dependencies between characters to bring back teamplay and roles in a party without having to go back to a pure trinity system. (also reworking healing skills and dodging will be important for that)

Then we should be able to select our stats otherwise, and NEVER have two of them tied together ! (currently we have 2 stats per trait line) It cripples build diversity and participates into making characters autonomous which is one of the things that lead to the zerker meta. (you know, different roles in a party=group coordination=dependencies between characters != autonomous characters)
So trait points and stat points would be two different things.

Sadly, as we saw the Revenant’s trait page in the PoI of this week, everything seems to have stayed the same. But there is a chance they just didn’t want to show us some of the changes they made before they announce them. I still have hope !

3 – Skill points to buy Traits
We have TONS of skillpoints that we are not using. We should be able to buy traits with them. It would be cool if it was one possibility among others (those which already exist could be kept).

Detaching traits from stats ultimately just creates an even narrow build path for players to follow down, because some lines have inherently better and more useful traits while providing “weaker” stats. Often these synergize with each other, anyways, kind of defeating the purpose in a lot of regards, too.

Skill points are no longer going to be granted at level 80 per the mastery system. Skill points are already the most gating issue for new players to buy traits as well, for many of them just unlock their utilities first and end up not having any left over to buy their actual traits. I’m hoping we see this dependency actually removed more so than the gold one as I know of many new players who have quit the game because they ran out of skill points and didn’t invest any in traits and didn’t feel like grinding them out. With the acquisition of SP removed, too, it begs the question as to what’s going to happen to the mystic forge on release of HoT after a long period of time when the skill point supply begins to drain.

I think there are a lot of system changes incoming that will help resolve these issues, but I don’t think the above two suggestions will be compatible with them.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Wolfheart.1879:

On the subject of skill points to buy traits – it depends on the cost. At the moment the skill points cost is the most prohibitive part of the cost to buy them – to unlock all traits for a character costs more skill points than there are skill challenges on the map. Add that to the cost of unlocking skills, it can be prohibitive at the moment.

Some do have tons of skill points not in use, some don’t, and with the current sp cost, they likely won’t have tons for long. It’s a question of balance there. At the moment, and for many it is just too high.

The question though, is whether it’s truly necessary to have ALL of a given class’s traits at the same time. Find the traits that you look like you’ll want for your build once you reach 80, and work on obtaining those. Find traits that may work better? Go unlock them. You arent required to buy any of the traits. If you have the gold and skill points, sure you can, but it’s not a requirement to buy them.

Additionally, skill points are hardly the difficult thing to come across as you depict. Events such as silverwastes, Teq, and the “krait lab” event near teq, have enough champion bags as loot, that you could potentially walk away with dozens of skill point scrolls in an afternoon.

yes, you should have a fairly large amount of traits, playing the game as a newb, by the time you hit 80. Traits are one of the primary factors in most builds. Max level is supposed to mean you are off the training wheels.

see what you are saying makes no sense here, because how are you supposed to know what you like, without trying them?

How about the fact that you cant actually obtain most traits as they are unlocked, even if you were planning ahead.
They wont even show you where the traits are in your trait tab until you reach a certain level, which means the game is telling you not to plan ahead. They give you a blurb about what you need to do to get an item, which a newb would have no idea what it even means.

The truth is the system is not only bad, its a horrible execution bad

Aidan Savage.2078:

I’ve had no issues with the current system, despite having leveled (and currently leveling) several characters after the change. The first, my mesmer, I knew exactly what I wanted to do, and exactly what traits she’d need. Unfortunately, since she basically went from 1-80 in LA, none of her traits were unlocked, but it wasnt much to simply buy the traits she needed and couldnt be unlocked easily. My latest one, a thief, I only have a general idea what she’s going to be doing, so traits are the least of my concern, with the biggest concern being figuring out exactly what I want her to do, how to do it, the skills to use for it, and then FINALLY, the traits to improve all the above. Beyond that, I’ll see if there’s anything worth tweaking and then go get those traits too.

@Guhracie, I said it’s not entirely necessary to have ALL of a character’s given traits. There are some traits that, no matter how much experimenting you do, you simply wont ever use, let alone give a second glance. The mesmer’s mirror anguish or whatever it’s called, is in my opinion, such a niche trait, that I would rarely find a use for it, making it a useless trait, thus one I wouldnt bother buying. I’d have to take a look at them, but most traits shouldnt take that long to unlock, particularly the event ones.

lol your example is an example of an overpriveleged mesmer born with a silver spoon in her mouth (an analogy)

she was raised into wealth such that she never had to step outside and kill a single enemy to hit 80
she was raised into such wealth that she had gold to buy a whole host of traits without ever setting a foot in the outside world
She was given skillbooks so she rarely had to do a skill challenge in order to unlock all applicable skills
She was born knowing exactly all the skills and traits she would ever need.

sure, in your case, your mesmer had few problems, because your mesmer basically bought her way out of the system. It doesnt represent a normal play experience, or the way the game should be played to give entertainment. It represents how someone with a lot of resources can avoid dealing with the game design.

Useless traits are design flaws, they are not supposed to exist and some classes have few of these, but not theoretically anet will eventually alter them

I think there is a danger of thinking “I have no problems, therefore no one should have problems, and anyone who says they do is wrong”. Not so. We all have different experiences depending on how we play, how long we play etc.

I’m happy to say that some do not have issues with this system, and I’m happy for them. But so many do have an issue, and those issues are jut as valid as those saying “It’s all good”. I’d imagine the balance of those who have an opinion (who use the system and have a view of it) leans towards the negative, given the previous thread. The debate was far less “is this system good or not?” and more “This is the best solution over yours”. When the debate is largely what the best fix is, and the majority view is that a fix (whatever is turns out to be) is needed, I’d say the system is flawed.

And even if it is hunky dory for some, any system can be better.

Just to say on a personal level, given my vast amount of alts, the time needed to unlock all traits on all chars is hugely prohibitive, as is the accumulated cost. I value the idea of making my characters unique in style, traits, everything, as I see each as a different character in their own right, not just pixels on a screen. A by-product from my RP days I guess.

I don’t think new players should have to research every step of their character’s story and progress in order to be optimal at the end. They should experience the game with wonder and find their own feet and way, and worry about the theory crafting after, if ever.

If we only unlock the traits for a given build, then encouraging build experimentation (a stated aim in the infamous now deleted blog post) has failed. There isn’t much experimentation to be had when you only unlock the traits necessary for a certain build.

The signs of the new system, if masteries etc are an indication about the general direction, are very positive, with a possible move towards account-unlocks. I doubt that such a move would be negative in any stretch. Would in just that go a long way to solving some issues.

About 14 points trait system I say: Lets have 8 long and boring levels instead of 80. Why not? It’s the same thing, right?

edit: Spreading existing content thiner and thiner doesn’t mean you have more of it, Anet. Just sayin’.

Launching the 2nd thread simply removes all of the “why won’t they admit the new trait system is horrible” comments. They’ve now admitted that. The story that they couldn’t say they agree with us revolves around the concept that the change will be released along side the expansion.

Now how much they considered the more thought out responses from the first thread while designing Trait 3.0 or they are running open loop in their echo chamber that keeps saying “they’ll love this”, who knows.

I would love to see them ask which of three similar concepts of the re-do we like the most (one of them not being the original trait system, sorry). This way forum players can feel some agency in the change rather than getting another severely flawed system shoved down our throats while being told it’s good for you, much like your parents did with broccoli.

Ojyh.9842:

Other than speculating and exposing our wishes, there’s nothing we can really do with the informations we have now.

I don’t know if you discussed about all this here, (sorry couldn’t read everything) but what I am waiting for, since they made the trait respec free last year, is more about build diversity and easily switch between different kind of builds in different situations :

1 – Templates like in GW1
I guess everybody agrees with that, and I really think it may be coming soon !
It makes sense since specializations are not permanent.

2 – Detach Traits and Stats
I want to be able to chose my traits without having to select specific stats for that. The idea wasn’t really bad at first (although not particularly interesting), but it is so poorly executed that I just want to get rid of this system that doesn’t make sense anymore. It is important to keep the trait lines, but I don’t want to have stats tied to them.
Once traits and stats are separated they could totally create/eliminate/rebalance some stats to put an end to the zerker meta and create dependencies between characters to bring back teamplay and roles in a party without having to go back to a pure trinity system. (also reworking healing skills and dodging will be important for that)

Then we should be able to select our stats otherwise, and NEVER have two of them tied together ! (currently we have 2 stats per trait line) It cripples build diversity and participates into making characters autonomous which is one of the things that lead to the zerker meta. (you know, different roles in a party=group coordination=dependencies between characters != autonomous characters)
So trait points and stat points would be two different things.

Sadly, as we saw the Revenant’s trait page in the PoI of this week, everything seems to have stayed the same. But there is a chance they just didn’t want to show us some of the changes they made before they announce them. I still have hope !

3 – Skill points to buy Traits
We have TONS of skillpoints that we are not using. We should be able to buy traits with them. It would be cool if it was one possibility among others (those which already exist could be kept).

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No, how about we go back to the cost before they changed the trait system the first time which is less than 5g and 0 skill points needed for all traits. Because we don’t have tons of skill points to spread through every alt and they are reducing ways to get them. Incase you did not read the first masteries announcement, you will no longer level up after level 80 and so you will not get skill points for it anymore. They need to ditch the high cost to get traits and go back to a low cost system. This way people can go back to having build experimentation and not be stuck with single builds or even worse a handful of traits that they just happened to pick up along the way.

Behellagh.1468:

Launching the 2nd thread simply removes all of the “why won’t they admit the new trait system is horrible” comments. They’ve now admitted that. The story that they couldn’t say they agree with us revolves around the concept that the change will be released along side the expansion.

Now how much they considered the more thought out responses from the first thread while designing Trait 3.0 or they are running open loop in their echo chamber that keeps saying “they’ll love this”, who knows.

I would love to see them ask which of three similar concepts of the re-do we like the most (one of them not being the original trait system, sorry). This way forum players can feel some agency in the change rather than getting another severely flawed system shoved down our throats while being told it’s good for you, much like your parents did with broccoli.

I always liked broccoli. Of course they wouldn’t give us the original traits system in the list because that would be a way to have metrics that say they screwed up so it will never happen. But then again them letting us choose between any amount of ideas will never happen anyways either. They will drop a new system with out feedback and for better or for worse it will be what everyone is stuck with for the next year(s). Hopefully they will actually support the product this time and actually spend time during that next year refining it, doubtful though.

sorudo.9054:

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

How, exactly are they releasing mastery system before HoT as you can only DO those if you’ve bought HoT?

No, Masteries and Specializations will be dropped with HoT as they are core feature OF the xpac.

The bigger problem here is that there is no real substantial Trait system in place for release before HoT either because if there WERE then they could talk about it (as per their communications policy), so following the logic, if they’ve not spoken about it then it cannot exist in a form solid enough for release either.

@phys, of course I was swimming in gold. My mesmer was leveled, geared, and traited, by virtue of all the gold I had after selling a Chaos Gun for 600-something gold. I’ve got like 24 gold now because Anet’s been releasing stuff I felt necessary for my characters (namely that ram backpack that I wish would skin over engi kits….). I’d have more gold if I wasnt working fulltime and only had weekends off :c

Aidan Savage.2078:

@phys, of course I was swimming in gold. My mesmer was leveled, geared, and traited, by virtue of all the gold I had after selling a Chaos Gun for 600-something gold. I’ve got like 24 gold now because Anet’s been releasing stuff I felt necessary for my characters (namely that ram backpack that I wish would skin over engi kits….). I’d have more gold if I wasnt working fulltime and only had weekends off :c

Exactly his point, your average player is not going to be able to level, gear up, and have full access to traits and skills in the same way your Mesmer did. Only the very lucky or those that are swimming in gold from other means can do what you did.

I believe that ANet stated the mastery system is a post-80 progression system, and that traits 3.0 would be a pre-80 progression system. This implies that leveling a character to 80 should unlock all traits. If that’s not the case, then it ought to be.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe that ANet stated the mastery system is a post-80 progression system, and that traits 3.0 would be a pre-80 progression system. This implies that leveling a character to 80 should unlock all traits. If that’s not the case, then it ought to be.

do you remember where you might have seen/heard the part about it being a pre-80 system? I honestly don’t remember seeing or hearing that from Anet. Just that they were working on a new system to replace the one on live.

Which i’d just like to point out when they mentioned it, made it seem like it was far more imminent than it has turned out to be.

Wolfheart.1879:

I think there is a danger of thinking “I have no problems, therefore no one should have problems, and anyone who says they do is wrong”. Not so. We all have different experiences depending on how we play, how long we play etc.

The corollary is also true – just because you have problems doesn’t mean you should assume those who say they don’t are lying.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe that ANet stated the mastery system is a post-80 progression system, and that traits 3.0 would be a pre-80 progression system. This implies that leveling a character to 80 should unlock all traits. If that’s not the case, then it ought to be.

I’d expect leveling a character to 80 would unlock the bulk of the traits like it did in the past, with some needing an effort to go earn – such as the ones which got added in the revamp.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe that ANet stated the mastery system is a post-80 progression system, and that traits 3.0 would be a pre-80 progression system. This implies that leveling a character to 80 should unlock all traits. If that’s not the case, then it ought to be.

do you remember where you might have seen/heard the part about it being a pre-80 system? I honestly don’t remember seeing or hearing that from Anet. Just that they were working on a new system to replace the one on live.

Which i’d just like to point out when they mentioned it, made it seem like it was far more imminent than it has turned out to be.

After reviewing everything I could find (again), it looks like I made a pie-in-the-sky kittensumption. I’d still hope it will be the case. The current system, while in part a leveling pursuit, is more of a post-80 system, especially for newer players. Hopefully, with Masteries as endgame growth, they won’t see the need to extend trait unlocks into an endgame pursuit.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Wolfheart.1879:

I think there is a danger of thinking “I have no problems, therefore no one should have problems, and anyone who says they do is wrong”. Not so. We all have different experiences depending on how we play, how long we play etc.

The corollary is also true – just because you have problems doesn’t mean you should assume those who say they don’t are lying.

I didn’t suggest otherwise. Hence the “We all have different experiences” bit and the bit after I think it was), suggesting that even if it works well for some, it may still be improved for their benefit as well as others (or words around that). Certainly enough people have had issues with this particular system that Anet feel it is right to completely change it again.

Guhracie.3419:

It is just beyond time to say something about what is going to be changed. It was ridiculous that we waited for four months to get acknowledgement that our feedback was being heard by anyone official at ANET, and then another five months on top of that before we heard that traits were, in fact, going to be changed. For sure. And now we’re heading into a weekend, with no further word about the system, after a month of further silence.

Anet, all you had to do was reduce the cost of traits while you were figuring out what to do next. That’s it. That would have solved so many problems. The fact that it still hasn’t happened isn’t instilling me with any confidence in the new-new system. Not even a teensy, tiny, bit.

83 pages (90, counting this thread), over 10 months, and smoke and mirrors is the best you can muster? Really?

Nobody said our feedback was heard. The did, however say that we are super cool for posting feedback.

As far as Anet is involved, they only react to their precious matrices. They made a deal with that guy/company that basically nullified (in their minds) the need to communicate with players at all because now they have nice spreadsheets that tell them everything they need to know.

That is why I don’t care for HoT right now and certainly not planing to buy it when it’s released because we are going to have the same attitude, but with extra humidity. Maybe when they start treating their players as valued customers

we’re not just their customers, we are practically the ones paying their bills.
they better listed or we’ll pull and guess what that means.

Eric.6109:

Guhracie.3419:

It is just beyond time to say something about what is going to be changed. It was ridiculous that we waited for four months to get acknowledgement that our feedback was being heard by anyone official at ANET, and then another five months on top of that before we heard that traits were, in fact, going to be changed. For sure. And now we’re heading into a weekend, with no further word about the system, after a month of further silence.

Anet, all you had to do was reduce the cost of traits while you were figuring out what to do next. That’s it. That would have solved so many problems. The fact that it still hasn’t happened isn’t instilling me with any confidence in the new-new system. Not even a teensy, tiny, bit.

83 pages (90, counting this thread), over 10 months, and smoke and mirrors is the best you can muster? Really?

Nobody said our feedback was heard. The did, however say that we are super cool for posting feedback.

As far as Anet is involved, they only react to their precious matrices. They made a deal with that guy/company that basically nullified (in their minds) the need to communicate with players at all because now they have nice spreadsheets that tell them everything they need to know.

That is why I don’t care for HoT right now and certainly not planing to buy it when it’s released because we are going to have the same attitude, but with extra humidity. Maybe when they start treating their players as valued customers

Four months after the original trait thread was started, the first developer response was this from Isaiah Cartwright. In it, he does acknowledge that good points are being raised in the thread, which translates, to me personally, that (at the very least) someone has heard them. That’s my inference, anyway.

I’m not a fan of their communication or how they’ve handled this situation, but I don’t think there’s a need to overlook what has been done in order to be appalled at it.

Eric.6109:

Nobody said our feedback was heard. The did, however say that we are super cool for posting feedback.

As far as Anet is involved, they only react to their precious matrices. They made a deal with that guy/company that basically nullified (in their minds) the need to communicate with players at all because now they have nice spreadsheets that tell them everything they need to know.

That is why I don’t care for HoT right now and certainly not planing to buy it when it’s released because we are going to have the same attitude, but with extra humidity. Maybe when they start treating their players as valued customers

Its pretty evident in some of the way Masteries are going to work that they listened to a good chunk of the feedback we gave in the old Traits thread and they more or less stated that our feedback did inform the team as they worked on aspects of the xpac and to that end whatever Traits 3.0 will be.

Problem is they are lacking in details about Traits 3.0 which is what we really want in this thread so we can offer feedback on THAT before it goes live.

sorudo.9054:

we’re not just their customers, we are practically the ones paying their bills.
they better listed or we’ll pull and guess what that means.

As much as I think we could do some potential “damage” to their bottom line, i think they will see a far bigger spike in revenue from the xpac for any loss due to traits possibly not being fixed that it will go unnoticed at first. Now, what might hurt them is this or a poorly implemented new system for any new players that cannot buy their Rev’s way to full stats with scrolls, etc. This is one of the reasons I really want to see the new trait system before HoT drops, so we can hopefully weigh in on it and help tweak something the devs might have missed. This is why I want an actual dialog WITH Anet about this before it goes to live so we can help steer it in some way. Right now though, all we are doing is talking at a wall.

I really want the game to continue to be successful, and i really want HoT to be successful. What i don’t want is the trait problem that’s been lingering now since April to mar what could be a new awesome experience.

as long as they remove the unlock part it’s fine by me, the only “unlock” i am ok with is the trait tier through levels. (and not to high in level FYI)

Can we please get the temples that require traits on a timer or something? The temples I need for traits are never contested. I hate to be forced to buy them since these yellow traits are the priciest.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Can we please get the temples that require traits on a timer or something? The temples I need for traits are never contested. I hate to be forced to buy them since these yellow traits are the priciest.

IIRC, it was changed so that the defense event for the temples also grants the trait.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Can we please get the temples that require traits on a timer or something? The temples I need for traits are never contested. I hate to be forced to buy them since these yellow traits are the priciest.

IIRC, it was changed so that the defense event for the temples also grants the trait.

This is true, but those events are still a big problem for many people when getting those traits under this current system. :/