Guild Wars 2

But it’s a discussion among ourselves while they are watching behind the proverbial one way mirror. Nowhere did they say it was a discussion with them.

Behellagh.1468:

But it’s a discussion among ourselves while they are watching behind the proverbial one way mirror. Nowhere did they say it was a discussion with them.

Even when they’re around, it’s less a discussion and more target practice against the devs anyway

Behellagh.1468:

Well they did see what we didn’t like about it. Specific things were listed as oppose to just hate mail because it was different. If most of your family hate a particular color for the new family car, such as “anything that’s green”, then you don’t really need to engage with them as they made their feelings quite clear.

unfortunately, based on the few responses we got, i dont think they were really able to understand what we didnt like.
I think they heard the having to do the same thing on multiple charachters part, that might be it.
Some other major problems were,

• comes too late in progression
  • unlocked at 30, too long without them
  • will generally take people till well after 80 to get all traits
• extremely high cost in skill points, when skill points are rare.
• people not liking to have to do specific content (because skill points/gold arent that realistic an option for many players)
• long time investment for some traits
• no connection between trait aquisition and the trait itself
• forcing pvp
• poor UI, and messaging

point is, based on past interaction, it seems its hard to really communicate with the devs. They pick up on bits an peices, but sometimes they dont really get the overall message. The trait rework is a good example. People were discussing other possible progressions for NEW skills, which currently were costing 25-40 skill points and other conditions, and it was suggested that there be another game based method for getting them.

so yeah, people want more of a dialog so this big 1 year waste of effort doesnt result from a misunderstanding.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Behellagh.1468:

But it’s a discussion among ourselves while they are watching behind the proverbial one way mirror. Nowhere did they say it was a discussion with them.

Even when they’re around, it’s less a discussion and more target practice against the devs anyway

That would be a bed of their own making.

As others stated, they had a perfectly good thread to open an actual dialog with us and instead went deafeningly silent for months. It appears they are doing the same here.

I know that for me, buying HoT will depend on this in a major way.
Actually, keeping the game installed on my system will depend on this in a major way.

That makes me very sad, but its the truth. Its like they have a really large and gorgeous tower, but one small crack in the foundation can bring it tumbling down if its not handled well.

Been a while since I peeked in here. I have absolutely no faith in the trait system re-revamp being satisfying to me.

It is now with a morbid sense of curiosity that I visit this thread to see just how awful they will make this game to me. I really loved it, but ever since the April patch that gave this system, I have rarely played the game. It is the fact that previous to that patch I had so much fun, that I still take a look here every so often to see what is happening.

But, in truth it is now more a case of me wanting to see just how miserable they can make the game (in my opinion). It has simply changed so fundamentally for me that I have no desire to spend time playing it.

But I figure, oh well, does not hurt to check back now then. I will be VERY surprised to see them make the game as fun as it once was for me. Sadly I am expecting the “simplification” to ultimately be just as distasteful to me. I wonder just exactly what new scheme they will come up with?

PookieDaWombat.6209:

That would be a bed of their own making.

As others stated, they had a perfectly good thread to open an actual dialog with us and instead went deafeningly silent for months. It appears they are doing the same here.

I know that for me, buying HoT will depend on this in a major way.
Actually, keeping the game installed on my system will depend on this in a major way.

That makes me very sad, but its the truth. Its like they have a really large and gorgeous tower, but one small crack in the foundation can bring it tumbling down if its not handled well.

If I were a dev, I would have stayed the heck away from the old thread too and only posted updates like what went on. There was no point to a dialogue when:

A – You can’t talk about anything in development, and your fixes are currently in development.

2 – A lot of the posts are convinced you broke it intentionally, or convinced you’re just plain incompetent.

iii – Few people involved think you’re capable of fixing it without their input, and will tell you how to do it. (Or you’re an idiot.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If I were a dev, I would have stayed the heck away from the old thread too and only posted updates like what went on. There was no point to a dialogue when:

A – You can’t talk about anything in development, and your fixes are currently in development.

2 – A lot of the posts are convinced you broke it intentionally, or convinced you’re just plain incompetent.

iii – Few people involved think you’re capable of fixing it without their input, and will tell you how to do it. (Or you’re an idiot.)

A Company prevents communication, and yet they make threads to communicate.
I’ll give you this one as a reason not to post, but I don’t think its the players fault.
2 When responding, you can choose to ignore the conspiracy theorists or not waste too much time answering them. Not sure if this is an excuse not to talk at all.
iii The changes were made without prior input, and lead to the people here not liking the system. So it isn’t completely unexpected that the population here might think this way. If they didn’t have A blocking them, they could convince the reasonable players by presenting their ideas and supporting them.

There is no point in dialogue mainly because they arn’t allowed to have a dialogue.

Snow.2048:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If I were a dev, I would have stayed the heck away from the old thread too and only posted updates like what went on. There was no point to a dialogue when:

A – You can’t talk about anything in development, and your fixes are currently in development.

2 – A lot of the posts are convinced you broke it intentionally, or convinced you’re just plain incompetent.

iii – Few people involved think you’re capable of fixing it without their input, and will tell you how to do it. (Or you’re an idiot.)

A Company prevents communication, and yet they make threads to communicate.
I’ll give you this one as a reason not to post, but I don’t think its the players fault.
2 When responding, you can choose to ignore the conspiracy theorists or not waste too much time answering them. Not sure if this is an excuse not to talk at all.
iii The changes were made without prior input, and lead to the people here not liking the system. So it isn’t completely unexpected that the population here might think this way. If they didn’t have A blocking them, they could convince the reasonable players by presenting their ideas and supporting them.

There is no point in dialogue mainly because they arn’t allowed to have a dialogue.

Rather tangential to what I was trying to say, but valid anyway.

. . . and yes, I think (A) gets in the way of far far too much dialogue. But I understand why it’s in place.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

A – You can’t talk about anything in development, and your fixes are currently in development.

2 – A lot of the posts are convinced you broke it intentionally, or convinced you’re just plain incompetent.

iii – Few people involved think you’re capable of fixing it without their input, and will tell you how to do it. (Or you’re an idiot.)

For “A” that was once again due to their (Anet’s) inability to effectively communicate and when put behind the 8-ball on another topic (precursor crafting/questing) instead of owning up and engaging with the player base they opted to just clam up until there were too many posts about it to ignore, then all they said was “nope, maybe later”. That turned into, “Its here now! Just gotta pay for it!”

For “2”, this was also born from the impressions drawn from not actually opening a dialog with the player base and just assuming they could draw conclusions about what the players might want from something like the CDI’s, which I can argue they missed the boat horribly on with regard to Traits. It isn’t the only thing either, but its the one that’s most pertinent to this thread. Essentially their non-communication stance once again leading to this perception.

For “iii”, it would go a LONG way to dealing with those people if they could effectively communicate the reasons for specific design decisions or paths they are working on. Once again the silence on topics where we are looking to actually dialog with them get left untouched until something is in the live environment and those things WILL be looked at a much more critical eye after the fact. Even more-so when there was an opportunity to bounce it off of the player base in some way and discuss the pros and cons and limitations of the system.

Its like this: when asked about guild size, Colin plainly said that the 500 member limit was strictly a limitation of the system. Period. Straight forward explanation that whether you like it or not is both honest and not really up for debate, but at least we know. If, instead, he just said “No, we’re not going to go above 500” and if pressed for why just went silent and never again addressed it, that first answer would fester and make some people rage a bit.

Traits and how they will change, progress, etc is less cut and dry as guild member numbers, but it deserves the same candor and dialog between the players and the devs and that is what we wanted since the start of the first thread. It only got as negative as it has because Anet went completely silent for too long (on a thread THEY made for “discussing the topic with us”) and by not even implementing the SIMPLEST change to the current system that would have appeased most of us (lowering the cost by about half) for trait purchasing.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If I were a dev, I would have stayed the heck away from the old thread too and only posted updates like what went on. There was no point to a dialogue when:

A – You can’t talk about anything in development, and your fixes are currently in development.

2 – A lot of the posts are convinced you broke it intentionally, or convinced you’re just plain incompetent.

iii – Few people involved think you’re capable of fixing it without their input, and will tell you how to do it. (Or you’re an idiot.)

A) This one sucks. I know that I hate being in a position at my place of employment where I cannot speak to matters that I know affect my customers due to company communication policies.

2) Not engaging in a dialogue with any of your customers because some of them are being obnoxious is not a good idea. For what its worth a choice to not dialogue openly with customers whose concerns you are attempting to address is not a sign of competence when it comes to customer service.

iii) If the company releases something that it thinks is good, but which actively detracts from the game for me then it is not unreasonable for me to think that they need my input on what would be a positive change for me.* What would be unreasonable would be to assume that the company, which has demonstrated that they do not understand what I want would somehow guess it without my input.

*I do not like the trait changes but they have not negatively impact me to the degree that they have others. I used, “me,” and, “I,” solely for purpose of expressing the concept.

Ashen.2907:

iii) If the company releases something that it thinks is good, but which actively detracts from the game for me then it is not unreasonable for me to think that they need my input on what would be a positive change for me. What would be unreasonable would be to assume that the company, which has demonstrated that they do not understand what I want would somehow guess it without my input.

Yes but there’s a far step from “let me tell you about what I think is wrong” and “you need to consult with me constantly or else I’m going to assume you’ll mess it all up again”.

Like I said in my post, those three reasons are the ones which would make me decide to not post at all. The first one, naturally, being exactly why I couldn’t but the other two contributing to why I wouldn’t.

It’s not just this thread either. The whole forum/subreddit is basically sitting back waiting for someone with a red name who isn’t Gaile to pop up so they can begin shooting.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ashen.2907:

iii) If the company releases something that it thinks is good, but which actively detracts from the game for me then it is not unreasonable for me to think that they need my input on what would be a positive change for me. What would be unreasonable would be to assume that the company, which has demonstrated that they do not understand what I want would somehow guess it without my input.

Yes but there’s a far step from “let me tell you about what I think is wrong” and “you need to consult with me constantly or else I’m going to assume you’ll mess it all up again”.

Like I said in my post, those three reasons are the ones which would make me decide to not post at all. The first one, naturally, being exactly why I couldn’t but the other two contributing to why I wouldn’t.

It’s not just this thread either. The whole forum/subreddit is basically sitting back waiting for someone with a red name who isn’t Gaile to pop up so they can begin shooting.

You are more caught up in how you feel about criticism than the criticism itself, that is a fatal flaw that most creators have to overcome, or suffer the consequences. There really isnt much difference between your two scenarios, qualitatively its just a matter of tact.

Being tactful is overated (when it comes to solving problems)though. Being direct is actually the most useful. Being tactful is necessary, but ineffecient.
for example, the fact of the matter may be, that in order to really understand and solve the problem well, they in fact need to consult people fairly periodicly. But if you say it in a tactful way, it may not be clear that is exactly what has the most likely chance of getting a better result.

If anet had a more visionary policy, i wouldnt think they need constant feedback. But thats not the type of system they built. Thats not the type of people they hired. They themselves have decided to go for an iterative policy.

Iterative development means the strength of their development will be constantly refining their ideas based on feedback.

this means they need even more feedback than other development strategies.
the real problem is their development strategy is at odds with their communication policies.

the best thing they can have for iterative development would probably be an extremely open door and heavily communicative policy. They should probably set up some sort of testing realm, witch changes rapidly and anyone can opt in to. They would need to set up people in positions who are very good at communicating to players and figuring out what players are really getting at, even when the player themselves dont grasp the why of the their feedback, who then is very good at communicating and representing that to the developers who are separated from this.

These things would totally destroy the desire for having everything be mysterious, and only presented when ready. They basically need visionary development style for the type of communication they have.

phys.7689:

You are more caught up in how you feel about criticism than the criticism itself, that is a fatal flaw that most creators have to overcome, or suffer the consequences. There really isnt much difference between your two scenarios, qualitatively its just a matter of tact.

I’ll cop to that, mostly because I do create and did have a major problem over feedback when I was doing that creation. (Mostly because when I did, I would get feedback which was usually “it’s good/great” or “it’s not good/sucks” but nothing elaborating on why.)

Being tactful is overated (when it comes to solving problems)though. Being direct is actually the most useful. Being tactful is necessary, but ineffecient.
for example, the fact of the matter may be, that in order to really understand and solve the problem well, they in fact need to consult people fairly periodicly. But if you say it in a tactful way, it may not be clear that is exactly what has the most likely chance of getting a better result.

Eh, again, you very likely have a point. But there is a difference between brutal honesty and just being brutal for the sake of being brutal. And there’s also some value in tact . . . it usually forces you to slow down what you’re about to say and it gives your brain some time to actually examine it before you launch it forth into the air.

Iterative development means the strength of their development will be constantly refining their ideas based on feedback.

this means they need even more feedback than other development strategies.
the real problem is their development strategy is at odds with their communication policies.

And there’s real problem with feedback from a thread which turns into an echo chamber where “and they’re still not doing anything right” becomes what’s being echoed around. That’s not feedback, that’s just bullying a target which doesn’t fight back.

Like I said, there’s a growing sense on this topic . . . and others . . . about it not being about feedback or giving helpful insight and more about shooting down people who aren’t going to fight back. There’s not much point to going to bat into such an environment, no matter how much it’s supposed to matter when looked at empirically – the best thing to do is read it, comprehend, and not engage. Use your time elsewhere, because you’re not being paid to handle the forums. (That’s Ms. Gray’s paycheck.) You’re being paid to work out a fix to something you broke.

(Not that these are the first development team which should have known better before making the change. And this group of people had much more experience before making that error than ANet did doing theirs.)

We’re gunna get locked for being off topic if we keep this up… But tbh I don’t know what to add to the actual discussion that hasn’t be suggested or said already, if not here then the previous thread.

It would be nice though if we could get a bit of direction in the discussion.

Snow.2048:

We’re gunna get locked for being off topic if we keep this up… But tbh I don’t know what to add to the actual discussion that hasn’t be suggested or said already, if not here then the previous thread.

It would be nice though if we could get a bit of direction in the discussion.

I think the big issue is, being off topic and annoyed is actually the most productive thing we can do (which I’m obviously not advocating). We have nothing to discuss, they’ve had nearly a year of input from the information we have. All we can do at this stage to have any influence whatsoever is to demonstrate that this is an issue we are extremely unhappy about, and aren’t going to forget just because we’re ignored for months and threads are closed down.

The best case scenario seems to be that some dev, or admin, takes this thread (and the last) to someone with the power to end the silence. I don’t see any other productive outcome here.

Hard to “Stay on Topic” when everything has already been said and the only responses we get are “we’re looking into it”, “there will be an announcement soon”, and “we will be changing traits again”. In the 89+ pages of the first Traits thread and now this one we have gotten no real info to discuss and when we have given suggestions on how to fix traits no response from A-net.

If I’m brutal, it’s because it has been almost a year. It’s been two months since the “new new” system was announced, and then we were left to our own devices with no information. This sentiment wasn’t adopted overnight. I’ve made pleas for middle ground, for some way to effectively communicate, and I’ve given loads of constructive feedback. The amount of time I’ve spent considering and wording my feedback is probably something that would be staggering to most people.

If the first thread was problematic, it should have been more heavily moderated. If their intention is to not engage, then they need to stop cycling through to the whole, “We’re sorry we have bad communication, and we’re really truly going to start working on it, and we mean it this time!” that I’ve watched happen here at least twice. Frankly, if their intention is to not engage, they need to examine the importance of having anything except for a support forum.

If forumites are bullies, they [ANET] are the ones with the power to discourage it. They have moderators here who can delete and/or edit posts. That doesn’t make it acceptable to be abusive, but they can eliminate the abuse, to a very large degree. They aren’t helpless victims. That is the wrong picture to be painting.

A customer whose enjoyment of the product is being adversely affected by the company’s handling is not exclusive to the computer game industry. A customer dissatisfied in this manner who is led to believe that he is being ignored, that his concerns are being shined on (at best), without any sense of progress on his concern, for a year, asked to give feedback….

I’m sorry its laughable.

Imagine any other industry where a company, during some form of service, damaged the product for which you had paid, and then chose to keep you in the dark about when or if they were going to do anything to address your concerns. Where the company strung you along for a year and then chose to discard all previous communication on your part regarding the issue while asking you to just start over with any feedback…and then chose to not respond to the new communication avenue.

Well if its a protest we can always do one of those cute signature things. Like the crossing out your server name and replacing it with megaserver, or the no conquest to stronghold thingy.

Not buying into HoT, till trait system is rethought!

Like so =P

just make traits free in WvW like they are in PvP….oh and actually mnake them all available etc.

Guhracie.3419:

They aren’t helpless victims. That is the wrong picture to be painting.

Of course they’re not helpless victims. They certainly can put an end to it, but doing that is a worse solution than just sucking it up and being quiet. I don’t need to imagine what would happen if they decided to just “fire back” with mass deletion of posts and infractions, with up to and including forum privileges limited/revoked.

Mostly because I watched it happen before when a sysop decided he was tired of being verbally slapped continuously and said “you know what, find somewhere else to host your game, I’m not paying for the servers anymore”. It was not pretty.

Personally, I’m wondering why they haven’t been speaking up about the repeated bumping done to this topic with nothing more than snide sniping at them just on topic enough to not be off topic. This thread had little purpose to existing, and somewhere around page 50 the other one didn’t have one either other than being an echo chamber about how the revamp sucked and needed to be fixed. An echo which kept on right over the “we’re going to change it, we’re working on something”.

I rather have faith they won’t screw it up. Why so much faith, you might ask? Well, because if they do screw it up again . . .

Do you really think the game will last for a fourth birthday?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I rather have faith they won’t screw it up. Why so much faith, you might ask? Well, because if they do screw it up again . . .

Do you really think the game will last for a fourth birthday?

This right here.

This right here is the main reason why I do insist on bumping this thread and trying to engage with the brick wall which is Anet on this topic. Based solely on how they’ve handled other changes and updates (basically working with the info available to me) I can’t fully trust that they won’t do something completely wacky with the trait system. Sure it could be awesome, but it could also fall hard and at a very crucial time. I honestly don’t want to see that happen because I do love this game as much as I do.

If there hadn’t already been a history of things not going quite right due to misconstrued ideas from both sides die to lack of open communication I doubt any of us would be this worried, but history hasn’t born that out.

So, now i will ask again of Anet:
Will we at least get a chance to see/hear/dialog about the upcoming trait changes before they go live and will that happen before or after HoT?

If its after HoT release and the reasons are understandable/justifiable then at least say so. If there are technical limitations that are slowing things down, then say so. Talk to us and at least let us know these things. Stop operating in a vacuum. I get that people have their heads down to meet the xpac deadlines, and if that is the reason as well, just say so. Just stop being silent on this already.

I hate to say it but I don’t think we’ll hear any more about a fix for the Traits system until after HoT drops. And the only reason it’ll become a priority for A-Net is because so many people will complain after making Revenants that they’ll be forced to finally address it for real.

Galphar.3901:

I hate to say it but I don’t think we’ll hear any more about a fix for the Traits system until after HoT drops. And the only reason it’ll become a priority for A-Net is because so many people will complain after making Revenants that they’ll be forced to finally address it for real.

they are most likely not going to ship hot without a modified npe, and new trait system for these reasons.
The question is will it be good.

phys.7689:

Galphar.3901:

I hate to say it but I don’t think we’ll hear any more about a fix for the Traits system until after HoT drops. And the only reason it’ll become a priority for A-Net is because so many people will complain after making Revenants that they’ll be forced to finally address it for real.

they are most likely not going to ship hot without a modified npe, and new trait system for these reasons.
The question is will it be good.

The question is, if it is bad or buggy, will they fix it or will we have another April 15th fiasco, complete with 11 months (or longer) of ignore interspersed with vapid promises?

Gregori.5807:

The question is, if it is bad or buggy, will they fix it or will we have another April 15th fiasco, complete with 11 months (or longer) of ignore interspersed with vapid promises?

Well, having polled the fine residents of Lion’s Arch, I can assure you it will be bad, it will be buggy, and the game will die rapidly so that it will be dead before the end of 2015.

hey, who knows, maybe the reason for the patch delay today was because they were dropping traits 3.0 for today and had to tweak it!

naaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I rather have faith they won’t screw it up. Why so much faith, you might ask? Well, because if they do screw it up again . . .

Do you really think the game will last for a fourth birthday?

But, see, I’m not one of those conspiracy theorists who thinks that the current system was implemented in order to kill off the game. So I think that they created this system thinking that it would maybe irritate some people, but also be something that would eventually be livable. So I rather think your faith is a bit unfounded, given the current climate of things.

Guhracie.3419:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I rather have faith they won’t screw it up. Why so much faith, you might ask? Well, because if they do screw it up again . . .

Do you really think the game will last for a fourth birthday?

But, see, I’m not one of those conspiracy theorists who thinks that the current system was implemented in order to kill off the game. So I think that they created this system thinking that it would maybe irritate some people, but also be something that would eventually be livable. So I rather think your faith is a bit unfounded, given the current climate of things.

It actually makes sense. Here check this out: http://www.1099.com/c/co/in/insanity006.html

Okay, I don’t normally quote entire posts, but the following post by Guhracie is right on the money. The reasons that have been given by various sources for why ANet can’t/won’t/shouldn’t communicate with us in an effective and timely manner are absolutely feeble. They aren’t even reasons, they are excuses for poor customer relations.

It is way past time that they adequately addressed the traits system. I am an adult. I can grasp the concept that any information given isn’t a “promise” and might change before a feature is released. Anyone who isn’t capable of understanding this does not deserve to be catered to to the point that everyone else is denied communication. Further, it is insulting for ANet to treat me as though I am incapable of understanding this.

People who rage about things that were never really “promised” are easily handled. This is a forum where the exact quote of what was said can be copied and pasted as a response to correct these kinds of people, and if they still rage in the face of actual facts they can and should be moderated appropriately.

Guhracie.3419:

If I’m brutal, it’s because it has been almost a year. It’s been two months since the “new new” system was announced, and then we were left to our own devices with no information. This sentiment wasn’t adopted overnight. I’ve made pleas for middle ground, for some way to effectively communicate, and I’ve given loads of constructive feedback. The amount of time I’ve spent considering and wording my feedback is probably something that would be staggering to most people.

If the first thread was problematic, it should have been more heavily moderated. If their intention is to not engage, then they need to stop cycling through to the whole, “We’re sorry we have bad communication, and we’re really truly going to start working on it, and we mean it this time!” that I’ve watched happen here at least twice. Frankly, if their intention is to not engage, they need to examine the importance of having anything except for a support forum.

If forumites are bullies, they [ANET] are the ones with the power to discourage it. They have moderators here who can delete and/or edit posts. That doesn’t make it acceptable to be abusive, but they can eliminate the abuse, to a very large degree. They aren’t helpless victims. That is the wrong picture to be painting.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Guhracie.3419:

They aren’t helpless victims. That is the wrong picture to be painting.

Personally, I’m wondering why they haven’t been speaking up about the repeated bumping done to this topic with nothing more than snide sniping at them just on topic enough to not be off topic. This thread had little purpose to existing, and somewhere around page 50 the other one didn’t have one either other than being an echo chamber about how the revamp sucked and needed to be fixed. An echo which kept on right over the “we’re going to change it, we’re working on something”.

Did Gail repost it thinking that people wouldn’t keep complaining like in the last thread?

Maybe she thought another Dev would jump in with more info?

Regardless, Anet restarted the thread, not us. I am expecting info from them, and I expect people to voice their opinions.

I am convinced that they re-did traits to create another money and skill point sink… Let’s hope they don’t do that with the new system that they already have planned.

Oh, and I will absolutely not buy HoT until I play and see the new trait and npe system for myself. Then I will decide about the choices that they made. I sure hope they are good because I do like this game.

Agreed on not buying it before seeing a functioning trait system. They did state their redesign was so that it would be more in line with the direction they are heading with masteries and progression in HoT. If I don’t like what they do to traits, then I can assume I won’t be a fan of their new progression, either. New maps and gliding is not enough of a carrot to get me to buy into it. They have to nail the progression too.

Anet: Is there literally NO more info that can be shared with us about ANY of this?

Possible time table?
Issues you’ve run into?
Statement akin to “We really wanted to have this out already but can’t at the moment because of last minute HoT dev work and this latest patch eating up our time”?

Can we get some candor here? page 10 and just a lot of preaching to the choir in here again with a few dissenting voices from very hopeful people or some that have tons of time on their hands to enjoy this system in its current state.

This month will literally be half done this weekend and that means we will be half a month away from the anniversary of this trait system with almost no info of substance from Anet regarding its fix.

1 year – 90+ pages …

Please Anet , roll back the pre April 2014 Trait unlock system

Seriously.

How hard is it for a freaking dev to go and fix that stupid bugged quest about Devourer Queen. Always Sentinel Whiptail freaking stuck and not moving in that map. Better still if you’re too lazy to fix this crap, why not move this trait to some other event that actually works. This event has been brought up before and you’ve jack kitten about it.

Sleepwalker.1398:

How hard is it for a freaking dev to go and fix that stupid bugged quest about Devourer Queen. Always Sentinel Whiptail freaking stuck and not moving in that map. Better still if you’re too lazy to fix this crap, why not move this trait to some other event that actually works. This event has been brought up before and you’ve jack kitten about it.

But haven’t you heard? They ARE doing something about it…eventually. We just need to speculate and guess what that something might be.

I’m speculating (from all of the interviews that the likes of WP, and MattV and Angry Joe have done) that the devs all have their heads down in the final push of HoT and until that’s in the bag, we aren’t going to see any movement on other things (including the trait revamp). That means new players or old ones trying to make a Rev are going to be treated to this trait system as it stands now.

I mean sure, vet players will just know to unlock the most useful traits for Revane…oh wait, no they won’t know which ones those are.

I guess they’ll just experience the joy of re-opening the maps and doing WvW, and mini-dungeons, etc to unlock all the traits so they could learn how to play their new class best.

Won’t be a problem at all for them. In fact it might even be easier for all of the ones that are planning on using scrolls to hit level 80 immediately.

Public Relations is all about controlling your image. You try to control the pace, frame discussion, set the stage because if you don’t someone else will and not necessarily to your benefit or in a a direction that will prove helpful to your goals. Keeping quiet is counter intuitive to that.

Granted CRM (Customer Relations Management) and PR (Public Relations) aren’t exactly the same thing but they’re similar enough for certain things to apply regardless. A “minimal communication” communication policy makes things kitten the CRM and downright frustrating for customers which makes it harder on PR.

Call it a lack of imagination or maybe an unqualified opinion but this layperson fails to see the benefit.

Tomorrow we’ll enter month twelve, and we still have no news about what the new-new system looks like. This song and dance is so disappointing. Yet again.

Let’s say they announce what it will be. Undoubtedly there will be vocal players who hate it. They will have the months leading up to the release grousing about it. Now depending how entangled this system is with the features of the expansion there may be nothing that can be done to “fix” it. It’s development schedule is completed and there isn’t any manpower that can be freed up to tweak it, assuming the grousers have a point. So when the expansion drops and the trait system is exactly what was described months previously the grousers will return in force.

Of course the MMO news sites will cover the trait news and will also get posters in their forums complaining about it. Maybe even an article about the disgruntlement about what’s been revealed in the expansion.

So if you know that you will have no time to “fix” any perceived problem with the new trait system between now on ship date, what’s better. Talk about it now and get months of negative forum posts or just before it drops so the negativity is less likely to affect purchases?

Behellagh.1468:

So if you know that you will have no time to “fix” any perceived problem with the new trait system between now on ship date, what’s better. Talk about it now and get months of negative forum posts or just before it drops so the negativity is less likely to affect purchases?

You mean like the silence is affecting purchases negatively, from what I understand?

At least silence is a quantum state. We don’t know if the changes are generally good or bad yet. A wait and see isn’t a no while months of negativity on the forums about what got announced most certainly will be.

And since this is likely a paid expansion, it will have an impact on NCSOFT’s financials which will have an impact on their stock which means analysts who are recommending buying, holding or selling NCSOFT stock are currently rummaging through these forums trying to get a handle on how many players will be willing to buy the expansion and how quickly.

KDB Daewoo came out with a research report this week that featured the expansion prominently as a factor of how well NCSOFT will do in 2015. They are estimating total sales for GW2 for 2015 at 189,000 million KrW, which is higher than either of the last two years, 123,000 million in 2013 and 86,000 million in 2014. The majority in the 2nd half which is when they are expecting the patch to drop.

This means info on the patch needs to be released to keep the hype up as well as carefully control the overall message since any news can affect NCSOFT’s stock.

I get the impression that some of the details of it are linked to the Mastery system. Maybe not directly, but sharing of code or UI or something.

Thus, even if they know what they want the system to do, they can’t say it’s set in stone until everything about the related expansion parts are also set in stone. The traits system is likely the more flexible part of it, and more easily adjusted to changes in plan. Thus, it will be the last part “locked down”. Only then can they give full details. (And trying before then might spoil later expansion detail reveals, too.)

I just hope that, if I’m right, they’ll at least say that soon. Given what they did to the system the last time, the silence is … worrying.

Behellagh.1468:

At least silence is a quantum state. We don’t know if the changes are generally good or bad yet. A wait and see isn’t a no while months of negativity on the forums about what got announced most certainly will be.

And since this is likely a paid expansion, it will have an impact on NCSOFT’s financials which will have an impact on their stock which means analysts who are recommending buying, holding or selling NCSOFT stock are currently rummaging through these forums trying to get a handle on how many players will be willing to buy the expansion and how quickly.

KDB Daewoo came out with a research report this week that featured the expansion prominently as a factor of how well NCSOFT will do in 2015. They are estimating total sales for GW2 for 2015 at 189,000 million KrW, which is higher than either of the last two years, 123,000 million in 2013 and 86,000 million in 2014. The majority in the 2nd half which is when they are expecting the patch to drop.

This means info on the patch needs to be released to keep the hype up as well as carefully control the overall message since any news can affect NCSOFT’s stock.

in the case you described it would have been a mistake to develop it in the dark knowing these risks.

You are also creating overall, a more likely case that your game will fail with your plan. Building expectations, and then under delivering is probably worse for long term, than giving people realistic expectations. People are generally more accepting of mediocrity than they are with dissapointment.

basically your strategy is take the money and run. A better strategy is get the people who would like/accept what your doing to buy your product.

I’ve they said publicly is that they realize the current system is bad and they are significantly simplifying it.

People are people, some will give the devs the benefit of the doubt and assume it will be better than what we have. Some will assume the worse because they feel that they aren’t getting any feedback on what they planned, at least OUR, those who are assuming the worse, feedback. How dare they not include every single cook when preparing this meal.

You can’t do that in real life. They have a vision on how this new system will fit along side the expansions mastery system. They’ve made it clear that they are getting rid of the accumulation of SPs after 80 from leveling. So SPs will be a limited commodity on a per character basis so you won’t have the spare SPs to buy your traits, at least all of them. Maybe they will be account wide unlocks so after the first character like mastery will be. Who knows.

I’m not saying they are taking the money and running, just limiting any negative feelings to just before the release. Now if they don’t tell us some crippling limitation until it shipped, then that’s take the money and run.

Behellagh.1468:

I’ve they said publicly is that they realize the current system is bad and they are significantly simplifying it.

People are people, some will give the devs the benefit of the doubt and assume it will be better than what we have. Some will assume the worse because they feel that they aren’t getting any feedback on what they planned, at least OUR, those who are assuming the worse, feedback. How dare they not include every single cook when preparing this meal.

You can’t do that in real life. They have a vision on how this new system will fit along side the expansions mastery system. They’ve made it clear that they are getting rid of the accumulation of SPs after 80 from leveling. So SPs will be a limited commodity on a per character basis so you won’t have the spare SPs to buy your traits, at least all of them. Maybe they will be account wide unlocks so after the first character like mastery will be. Who knows.

I’m not saying they are taking the money and running, just limiting any negative feelings to just before the release. Now if they don’t tell us some crippling limitation until it shipped, then that’s take the money and run.

see the thing with the cook analogy, almost no one walks into a restaraunt and says bring me whatever you want.

There needs to be actual interaction between the cook, and the customer, or its highly likely to be problematic.

You were saying its better to not speak so as to stop negative criticism. But thats foolish, whatever negative criticism you get is based on the product. Its going to happen regardless, you gain nothing, unless your hope is to sell your product to people who arent going to like it, if they know what it is.

You cant see how that is a really bad idea?

Galphar.3901:

I hate to say it but I don’t think we’ll hear any more about a fix for the Traits system until after HoT drops. And the only reason it’ll become a priority for A-Net is because so many people will complain after making Revenants that they’ll be forced to finally address it for real.

This would be silly – I’m not buying a slot for a Revenant until they fix the trait system.

NCSOFT is still squaring off with Nexon and the stockholder meeting at the end of the month. They do not want any negative press that could affect stock price until after the results of this meeting. They don’t want to give Nexon any additional ammo that could allow them to get members on the Board of Directors. That means hyping the releases planned this year while not presenting anything that is too controversial among players of existing games.

You can’t see how to NCSOFT that potentially causing controversy at this critical time is really a bad idea?

Behellagh.1468:

NCSOFT is still squaring off with Nexon and the stockholder meeting at the end of the month. They do not want any negative press that could affect stock price until after the results of this meeting. They don’t want to give Nexon any additional ammo that could allow them to get members on the Board of Directors. That means hyping the releases planned this year while not presenting anything that is too controversial among players of existing games.

You can’t see how to NCSOFT that potentially causing controversy at this critical time is really a bad idea?

And you can’t see how saying nothing to us about Traits fix besides “it’s coming” is doing the same thing?

No as bad as announcing something that’s the player base polarizes over. Right now we are only unhappy because they are telling us the barest minimum, that it’s being simplified. It’s not generating any additional stories about how much we dislike being in the dark about specifics.

Behellagh.1468:

No as bad as announcing something that’s the player base polarizes over. Right now we are only unhappy because they are telling us the barest minimum, that it’s being simplified. It’s not generating any additional stories about how much we dislike being in the dark about specifics.

I think that almost 100 pages over the past 11 months would disagree with you.