Guild Wars 2

To be honest i m most afraid that class who will get traps at specialization will be thief , but regardless didn’t they check that most of the traps are not even considered viable skill? It will be sad.
About traits we will see.

I STRONGLY DISAPPROVE CONVERTING AUTOMATICALLY SKILL POINTS TO NEW CRAFTING MATERIAL – there should be just vendor to trade , don’t you realize that some people have thousands of skill points and won’t have place to store this….

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

Tyrantis.8640:

Number 1: We have to buy how many sets of armor for each class and character? I have 8 characters, 6 of which are level 80. I need to go spend how much gold to buy secondary armor for each situation? That’s crap. It’s convenient for you because more gold = more money for aNet.

Number 2: Bank slots and bag slots for armor. It’s convenient that since my characters will be running multiple armors that I will need to purchase more bank room and more bad slots. More bag slots and bank slots sold = more money for aNet.
Since aNet is not adding multiple build slots, then you will need to store this additional armor in your inventory. This is pretty much garbage to me.

yeah, this change almost requires a revamp of the armor/inventory/armor aquiring system

I’ve read the blogs, but I apparently missed the requirement to buy multiple sets of armor. Where/what is that, exactly?

It looks to me like everyone is being moved a wee bit towards a balanced (Celestial) build — with base stats going up by 74 — as one means to maintain similar overall stat numbers. That’s going to mean a small reduction for all “extreme” stat allocations (e.g., a full berserker would have a bit more vitality and toughness but likely a bit less Power and Precision).

We don’t know how much the gear stats will increase, but we do know that there were 14 old trait points, each granting 50 points (barring taking profession mechanic traits, which look like they are being folded into to new traits). this would mean 700 stat points. 700 – 74 = 626 (or thereabouts) going to gear. It would seem like stat setups that used the same prefix on all gear would gain more of the stats on that gear, making up most of the lost stat points from traits that granted those same stats.

If you’re talking about builds which use 1 gear prefix, but which gain as many as 700 stat points from traits that are different from those on their gear, why would it not be possible to switch out 1 or 2 pieces of gear to maintain that balance, not a full set (actual numbers would determine the actual number of pieces)? It seems to me that the only ones needing multiple gear sets are those who already need them.

So, what am I missing?

you are not missing anything you are just ignoring the implication.

before if you wanted to be a little tankier, or a little more heavy DPS you might change your traits.
now you will have to carry around extra armor peices, thats basically the long and short of it. Armor is completely responsible for stats.

Not the end of the world, but as someone who already finds inventory and armor annoying to keep track of/invest in, that will only increase.

a lot of people who only had one set, will now need at least a few new pieces, possibly a lot of peices, which takes up space, and is a hassle to switch

Yeah, we’ve danced the “too much space needed” tango before. It’s possible I was a bit myopic due to my using hybrid builds already on some characters, done by mixing gear prefixes.

It’s really too bad that ANet took the easy way out by just shunting leftover stats to armor. They could have taken a page from their original game, and allowed players to allocate those points as desired, with a cap of 300 (or 226 if they like the 1000 base points thing) per stat.

If they considered it, they probably thought that doing so would be too complicated for their player base. /sarcasm off

Just read through the two blog post and my first reaction was that GW2 was basically going against what I expected from it. First with locking our possibilities at early levels as if all players were unable to understand to simplest of mechanism and second by turning traits acquisition into what looks like a grind festival. Frankly speaking I’ve never considered any unlocking of capabilities to be a desirable game feature because gaming has always been about content to me (lore, adventure, loot, …) and not about having to work just so I could use a single skill.

Initially I was excited about the extension but reading those latest two blogs about the specialization system killed all of it making me wonder if I shouldn’t quit the game instead, I have 8 alternates and I like to experiment (was planning on a 9th to get all professions), build flexibility is not something that is only important in PvP.

I’m excited for these changes. Here are a few of my questions:

- What happens to currently unlocked traits/skills? Do they remain unlocked in the new system?
- Are hero points remaining character specific (like skill points currently are)?
- We can currently trade skill points for specific crafting materials. Will there be a way to choose what we receive from excess hero points or is it random?
- What will happen to the skillpoint scrolls?
- When are you releasing this so I can inject it directly into my bloodstream?

Darak BG.5396:

Just read through the two blog post and my first reaction was that GW2 was basically going against what I expected from it. First with locking our possibilities at early levels as if all players were unable to understand to simplest of mechanism and second by turning traits acquisition into what looks like a grind festival. Frankly speaking I’ve never considered any unlocking of capabilities to be a desirable game feature because gaming has always been about content to me (lore, adventure, loot, …) and not about having to work just so I could use a single skill.

Initially I was excited about the extension but reading those latest two blogs about the specialization system killed all of it making me wonder if I shouldn’t quit the game instead, I have 8 alternates and I like to experiment (was planning on a 9th to get all professions), build flexibility is not something that is only important in PvP.

How do you feel about the current system?

Isn’t this new trait system effectively the N(ew)P(layer)E(xperience) system being reskinned, rebranded and put into HoT so we all after swallow it?

The only real alternative is not buy HoT and walk away from GW2.

Skill point scrolls btw way and any other excess skill points will become crafting materials for the mystic toilet. It will likely be Arena Net RNG, wether you get anything good or not. But, because this new trait system is going to be HUGELY UNPOPULAR with a lot of players, they may offer us big bribes to accept it.

Can we still use traits like they are now, or will it be replaced with these specializations? For example – if I want to put my traits like 4 4 2 2 2 – from what I read the specialization only allows to use 3 types of ‘trait line’ at the same time. Is this the same thing in HoT? Or will we be able to use both the old way and new way?

Atoss.1056:

Can we still use traits like they are now, or will it be replaced with these specializations? For example – if I want to put my traits like 4 4 2 2 2 – from what I read the specialization only allows to use 3 types of ‘trait line’ at the same time. Is this the same thing in HoT? Or will we be able to use both the old way and new way?

Correct.

Three lines. No more spreading them out across six of them if you want.

Atoss.1056:

Can we still use traits like they are now, or will it be replaced with these specializations? For example – if I want to put my traits like 4 4 2 2 2 – from what I read the specialization only allows to use 3 types of ‘trait line’ at the same time. Is this the same thing in HoT? Or will we be able to use both the old way and new way?

New way or the highway and it won’t matter wether you buy HoT or not the trait system is changing for everyone.

EChondo.6750:

So to clarify something, will we have to buy the expansion to use these new systems coming out? I’m assuming “No”, but every time Anet talks about these things they keep mentioning the expansion as if it’s a requirement.

You won’t have to buy HoT for the changes to base classes: The trait system changes for everyone.

You WILL need HoT to unlock the Elite Specialization for each class (like Druid for Ranger). These Elite Specializations unlock “new weapons, mechanics, skills, and traits”. At least, that’s how I understood the posts.

I notice there’s no word on when (in the leveling process, I mean) the unlocks are happening. And, guys, it’s almost a guarantee at this point that this is going to be released with Heart of Thorns. Otherwise they’ll have to patch the world to rely on the hero points system first. Something else to note: traits are locked to tiers. So if you don’t like any of the three master tier traits, but you need a grandmaster, you can’t slot an adept trait in the master tier. (This is important to me right now as I frequently use traits that aren’t in the selected tier.)

I kind of very idly read that since I don’t get half of it and have little interest… but I really hate doing “unlock quests” and things that resemble those.
I haven’t done skill challenges or even hearts for a long, long time if I could avoid it, and I could. After a while I only did events for the old daily system reasons, when there were these things called options and I even actually wanted to do the events I needed sometimes, even with megaserver in place I used to be able to avoid people.
So this hero challenge looks like checklist stuff and I don’t much care for that outside of the old daily/monthly system which I genuinely enjoyed.

What the update means for traits itself I don’t really know, I got the removal of some and skill changes but other than that I… didn’t even bother… I don’t think I care?

I care to rant though, hated the last year’s trait system change the moment I learned about it. I don’t think this new one is going to be tolerable in any way. Traits used to be accessible, and that was it. No unnecessary hassle, the focus of the game somewhere else, not inside the character in form of boxes or exp bars that need to be filled.
Of course reset should’ve been free because the fee was limiting in otherwise open system which is quite absurd, and for my own reasons: outside of sales I have had no money coming in as I outright hate lot of stuff and avoid it all. I simply didn’t change my trait lines after setting them up initially unless some emergency happened (I remember a case of an update resetting traits and me fixing two characters the wrong way around at first).
It worked pretty well since in the end I don’t value combat very highly and tended to not do it all that much. I’m telling you, I did like that old daily though…
Experiments I like too and was only able to experiment with something I never tried after reset went free and then it was mostly too late. Had and have my existing five level 80 characters… who I by the way suppose will not survive this change comfortably intact since there will be no intact left.
Oh, my low level “trait” characters waiting long for a day that for few months existed somewhere in the future because of login rewards. The day that doesn’t exist now.

I do really hate this “progression” thing. I want none of it. There was that time when I enjoyed Guild Wars 2 so much and it was because things like NPE and unlock quests weren’t in the game. That experience is gone.

OMG!!!!
ANeT looks like they’re trying to duplicate LOTRO. I stopped playing LOTRO due to the grind and the ridiculous way the changed “specialization” tree for characters. It became a chaotic mess.
A simple understandable trait system is best. You should stick with it. This new example looks like LOTRO. But obviously you’ve made up your minds to complicate the system and we can’t change it. Look what happened when you changed the original trait system. The vast majority hated it and it was poorly thought out.

Please stop.

Meglobob.8620:

Isn’t this new trait system effectively the N(ew)P(layer)E(xperience) system being reskinned, rebranded and put into HoT so we all after swallow it?

That’s not the impression I got. In fact, most of it is completely different from the current system. I’m not sure why you think it’s just a reskin when completely new functionality is being added.

Traced.3495:

I don’t think this new one is going to be tolerable in any way.

Says the guy who didn’t actually read or understand it. Here’s a summary:

Only three trait lines can be chosen, but you can pick the grandmaster on all those lines. This means that every build will have exactly 9 Minor Traits and 9 Major Traits. Also, choosing a trait line will immediately give you some additional attributes or improvement to your class mechanic. This change makes it impossible to splash 1 point in a fourth trait line, but it’s not like many current builds do it anyway.

Trait choices will be more focused and easier to understand, but also more restricted. Every major trait will have only three choices and you won’t be able to pick a trait from previous tiers: for example you can’t choose an Adept trait on Grandmaster tier. Traits will be more powerful and you will be able to pick 2 more than before (9 Major Traits against the current 7), but choice will be a bit more limited (only 3 Adept, 3 Master, and 3 Grandmaster traits against the current 6 Adept, 4 Master, and 3 Grandmaster).

New profession specializations are actually one new trait line. As simple as that. Choosing that line will give you new skills, a new equippable weapon, and new class mechanics. This also means that you will be able to choose only two among other trait lines. [Personal note: I am a bit worried that profession specializations may be too similar to core professions… but we’ll see].

Professions will decide base attribute points, traits lines and gear will do the rest. Every player will have 1000 base points on every stat, then profession will add some points, then each chosen specialization will add more, and finally equipment will do the same. This means that some professions may have higher power that others, a bit like Warrior has currently more health and armor that others.

Unlocks in PvE are basically unchanged, while in PvP everything will be unlocked from start. They renamed “Skill Points” into “Hero Points”, but the concept is basically the same, except that you (probably) won’t be able to get more Hero Points than what you need to unlock everything. By spending points on a track you will unlock traits and skills related to that particular track: for example the “Signet Track” for Warrior will unlock Signet skills and maybe traits that influence Signet usage. No more hunting down traits through specific content – just do what you want in PvE and you’ll unlock them via hero points (aka skill points).

Heibi.4251:

OMG!!!!
ANeT looks like they’re trying to duplicate LOTRO. I stopped playing LOTRO due to the grind and the ridiculous way the changed “specialization” tree for characters. It became a chaotic mess.
A simple understandable trait system is best. You should stick with it. This new example looks like LOTRO. But obviously you’ve made up your minds to complicate the system and we can’t change it. Look what happened when you changed the original trait system. The vast majority hated it and it was poorly thought out.

Please stop.

How is the current system better? How is it simpler? 99% of possible builds in the old system are complete crap. For example stuff like 1/1/6/5/1 with all Adept Traits, and that’s just an extreme example. Why would you want a system that has so many traps and pitfalls? Why would you think its simpler? What part of it do you prefer over this? Is it just an issue you have with the UI?

With the new system it will be much harder to create these kind of obscene crap combinations, since you’ll always get 3 Adept, 3 Master, AND 3 Grandmaster traits. The choices are a bit more limited, but it makes them much more meaningful. I’m not sure how this isn’t a simpler method. You can’t actually go wrong with this.

Guhracie.3419:

I notice there’s no word on when (in the leveling process, I mean) the unlocks are happening. And, guys, it’s almost a guarantee at this point that this is going to be released with Heart of Thorns. Otherwise they’ll have to patch the world to rely on the hero points system first. Something else to note: traits are locked to tiers. So if you don’t like any of the three master tier traits, but you need a grandmaster, you can’t slot an adept trait in the master tier. (This is important to me right now as I frequently use traits that aren’t in the selected tier.)

They clearly stated their reasoning

“By locking traits to tiers and reducing the overall number of traits, we’ve made each choice much more compelling.”

Feel compelled.

Compel

• 1. to force or drive, especially to a course of action:
  His disregard of the rules compels us to dismiss him.
• 2. to secure or bring about by force.
• 3. to force to submit; subdue.
• 4. to overpower.
• 5. Archaic. to drive together; unite by force; herd.

Questions:

1. How many hero points will existing level 80 characters have? What if they have a full map unlock, meaning they already completed all the hero/skill challenge, do they then have full access to all trait lines and skills and elite specializations?
2. What happens to tome of knowledge and scroll of knowledge? Should we consume them all before HoT?
3. How are the excess skill points converted into mystic forge/crafting materials?
4. Are there any ways to obtain hero points via WvWvW?
5. Will the trait lines still affect condition duration and boon duration?

Concerns:
While the proposed system looks simpler and thus better for beginners, I am worrying about the lack of diversity in builds.

Currently you could have different stat allocations (+300 to stat) using exactly same armor + trinkets + weapon and runes. Now in order to change the stat allocations by 300 you must have a different pieces of armor or trinkets, bloating the storage space with them doesn’t sound like fun.

Currently pvp allows only very limited set of stats via amulets and you cannot combine runes e.g. 2xRune A and 4xRune B. Compared to WvWvW this feels very limited. Unless this is changed, the spvp builds would be even more cookie cutter than the current system as there is less traits to choose from & the trait lines won’t affect stats.

Lemondish.3268:

Meglobob.8620:

Isn’t this new trait system effectively the N(ew)P(layer)E(xperience) system being reskinned, rebranded and put into HoT so we all after swallow it?

That’s not the impression I got. In fact, most of it is completely different from the current system. I’m not sure why you think it’s just a reskin when completely new functionality is being added.

Traced.3495:

I don’t think this new one is going to be tolerable in any way.

Says the guy who didn’t actually read or understand it. Here’s a summary:

Only three trait lines can be chosen, but you can pick the grandmaster on all those lines. This means that every build will have exactly 9 Minor Traits and 9 Major Traits. Also, choosing a trait line will immediately give you some additional attributes or improvement to your class mechanic. This change makes it impossible to splash 1 point in a fourth trait line, but it’s not like many current builds do it anyway.

Trait choices will be more focused and easier to understand, but also more restricted. Every major trait will have only three choices and you won’t be able to pick a trait from previous tiers: for example you can’t choose an Adept trait on Grandmaster tier. Traits will be more powerful and you will be able to pick 2 more than before (9 Major Traits against the current 7), but choice will be a bit more limited (only 3 Adept, 3 Master, and 3 Grandmaster traits against the current 6 Adept, 4 Master, and 3 Grandmaster).

New profession specializations are actually one new trait line. As simple as that. Choosing that line will give you new skills, a new equippable weapon, and new class mechanics. This also means that you will be able to choose only two among other trait lines. [Personal note: I am a bit worried that profession specializations may be too similar to core professions… but we’ll see].

Professions will decide base attribute points, traits lines and gear will do the rest. Every player will have 1000 base points on every stat, then profession will add some points, then each chosen specialization will add more, and finally equipment will do the same. This means that some professions may have higher power that others, a bit like Warrior has currently more health and armor that others.

Unlocks in PvE are basically unchanged, while in PvP everything will be unlocked from start. They renamed “Skill Points” into “Hero Points”, but the concept is basically the same, except that you (probably) won’t be able to get more Hero Points than what you need to unlock everything. By spending points on a track you will unlock traits and skills related to that particular track: for example the “Signet Track” for Warrior will unlock Signet skills and maybe traits that influence Signet usage. No more hunting down traits through specific content – just do what you want in PvE and you’ll unlock them via hero points (aka skill points).

ahhh didnt really understand that proffesion based stat thing till you said it.
That blows.
some proffessions will just be built kitten (toughness/vit stats)

Lemondish.3268:

Heibi.4251:

OMG!!!!
ANeT looks like they’re trying to duplicate LOTRO. I stopped playing LOTRO due to the grind and the ridiculous way the changed “specialization” tree for characters. It became a chaotic mess.
A simple understandable trait system is best. You should stick with it. This new example looks like LOTRO. But obviously you’ve made up your minds to complicate the system and we can’t change it. Look what happened when you changed the original trait system. The vast majority hated it and it was poorly thought out.

Please stop.

How is the current system better? How is it simpler? 99% of possible builds in the old system are complete crap. For example stuff like 1/1/6/5/1 with all Adept Traits, and that’s just an extreme example. Why would you want a system that has so many traps and pitfalls? Why would you think its simpler? What part of it do you prefer over this? Is it just an issue you have with the UI?

With the new system it will be much harder to create these kind of obscene crap combinations, since you’ll always get 3 Adept, 3 Master, AND 3 Grandmaster traits. The choices are a bit more limited, but it makes them much more meaningful. I’m not sure how this isn’t a simpler method. You can’t actually go wrong with this.

Simple is better. The example I looked at along with the graphics are a close comparison to LOTRO’s. LOTRO created a tree-like system and you applied points to the tree which opened up other parts of the tree and it was never really clear and was not easy to use. So, simple is better. And I’ve never seen anyone run a 1/1/1/6/5/1 build once they understood the way things work. Again, simple is better. Lots can go wrong when you complicate the process.

Heibi.4251:

Lemondish.3268:

Heibi.4251:

OMG!!!!
ANeT looks like they’re trying to duplicate LOTRO. I stopped playing LOTRO due to the grind and the ridiculous way the changed “specialization” tree for characters. It became a chaotic mess.
A simple understandable trait system is best. You should stick with it. This new example looks like LOTRO. But obviously you’ve made up your minds to complicate the system and we can’t change it. Look what happened when you changed the original trait system. The vast majority hated it and it was poorly thought out.

Please stop.

How is the current system better? How is it simpler? 99% of possible builds in the old system are complete crap. For example stuff like 1/1/6/5/1 with all Adept Traits, and that’s just an extreme example. Why would you want a system that has so many traps and pitfalls? Why would you think its simpler? What part of it do you prefer over this? Is it just an issue you have with the UI?

With the new system it will be much harder to create these kind of obscene crap combinations, since you’ll always get 3 Adept, 3 Master, AND 3 Grandmaster traits. The choices are a bit more limited, but it makes them much more meaningful. I’m not sure how this isn’t a simpler method. You can’t actually go wrong with this.

Simple is better. The example I looked at along with the graphics are a close comparison to LOTRO’s. LOTRO created a tree-like system and you applied points to the tree which opened up other parts of the tree and it was never really clear and was not easy to use. So, simple is better. And I’ve never seen anyone run a 1/1/1/6/5/1 build once they understood the way things work. Again, simple is better. Lots can go wrong when you complicate the process.

to be honest the new one is simpler.
choose 3/5 options (before was choose 14 points from 60)
out of those 3, choose 1/3, 1/3, 1/3(before depended on how you picked before an d then it would be 1/6, 1/4, 1/3

but i dont think simpler is better, its just simpler.

the unlock system may be the one you find confusing

Heibi.4251:

Lemondish.3268:

Heibi.4251:

OMG!!!!
ANeT looks like they’re trying to duplicate LOTRO. I stopped playing LOTRO due to the grind and the ridiculous way the changed “specialization” tree for characters. It became a chaotic mess.
A simple understandable trait system is best. You should stick with it. This new example looks like LOTRO. But obviously you’ve made up your minds to complicate the system and we can’t change it. Look what happened when you changed the original trait system. The vast majority hated it and it was poorly thought out.

Please stop.

How is the current system better? How is it simpler? 99% of possible builds in the old system are complete crap. For example stuff like 1/1/6/5/1 with all Adept Traits, and that’s just an extreme example. Why would you want a system that has so many traps and pitfalls? Why would you think its simpler? What part of it do you prefer over this? Is it just an issue you have with the UI?

With the new system it will be much harder to create these kind of obscene crap combinations, since you’ll always get 3 Adept, 3 Master, AND 3 Grandmaster traits. The choices are a bit more limited, but it makes them much more meaningful. I’m not sure how this isn’t a simpler method. You can’t actually go wrong with this.

Simple is better. The example I looked at along with the graphics are a close comparison to LOTRO’s. LOTRO created a tree-like system and you applied points to the tree which opened up other parts of the tree and it was never really clear and was not easy to use. So, simple is better. And I’ve never seen anyone run a 1/1/1/6/5/1 build once they understood the way things work. Again, simple is better. Lots can go wrong when you complicate the process.

There are no tree systems here; unlocks are linear progressions within a trait or skill line. You spend hero points and you go up the track. As for allocating the trait points, you’re only ever picking from one of three trait choices at each tier. And picking from three of six trait lines if you have the expansion. Single, non-branching choices at all points.

Well, I’m excited. They’re changing the unlock system and making it use a more general currency. This removes the “Waiting 45 minutes for X event to proc so I can get this trait” problem.

It also puts the focus back on Skill Point Challenges (Now Hero Point Challenges?), which I always thought were a neat way to give a player small, unique trials. Even if the trial was “beat up this enemy”, that enemy tended to have an unusual skillset.

Elite skills will now all have a category. Does this mean Time Warp will be a Manipulation? Lich Form will be a Spectral? Plague will be a Well? Rampage as One will be a Shout? Introducing trait synergy to elites can have some really interesting effects, since so many of the old elites were only available on an “as-is” basis.

Adepts are getting buffed. This is only possible because they’re hard limiting people to three lines now, but adepts becoming more impactful is a big plus to me. In the example shown (Water Magic) the adepts were 2 strict upgrades from old adepts (with fairly significant boosts, really) and one as-is master level trait. 2 of the master level traits were old master levels + a matching adept. (The other was Cleansing Wave, which is super good already). And the grandmasters were as they are now.
This could be different than advertised if currently hidden information like cooldowns & recharges turn out to be awful, but the increased functionality of these skills is a really good sign. And in water, all we lost was “Arcane Abatement” and “Shard of Ice”.

My only worries are surrounding exactly how many skill points you need to unlock a particular line, and if it’s feasible to get them unlocked quickly if you’re focusing on it. But that sort of information can’t really be given just yet, as it’s fairly easily tweaked and adjusted right up until release.

Interestingly, without HoT you will have 10 variations of possible trait lines (5 choose 3), but you will have 20 with HoT (6 choose 3). Twice as many!

Why is it “Should be able to unlock,” vs “will be able to unlock?” I have played for a while and I dont have map completion on most of my toons save one. This is kinda a sinker for me to keep going to enjoy the game. Would it be possible to respec with the new system to allow for atleraions?

Overall the changes sound like they are going in the right direction. The one thing I wasn’t so excited about though is that it sounds like stats are becoming more tied to gear rather than less. I’d rather have the flexibility to change out a build and experiment with stats, but swapping out gear (especially when it is ascended) is not a trivial process. Tying more stats to gear reduces build flexibility in my opinion.

Lemondish.3268:

Traced.3495:

I don’t think this new one is going to be tolerable in any way.

Says the guy who didn’t actually read or understand it. Here’s a summary:

Tolerable to me means the original system or something equally accessible.

In a way I’m skipping the current system in my mind for the most part as I have never used it to unlock a trait, the most I have to do with it is when I rage that it even exists. As it stopped me for making new characters. Or for a part, playing, although traits weren’t completely alone in that.

And nope, still not. Well, either understand, or read. I can’t find the interest. My main take from the articles, what little I got, was that the upcoming system is something that I don’t feel like dealing with, and I did get that it will nuke what remains of the Good Old Days = the traits of characters created before that April update last year as the system will be completely different.

I also vaguely scanned some signs of grind with the points…? I’m again comparing to original trait system and considering the effort, not the current, or for example masteries which I haven’t had any interest to look into and truly don’t understand at all. I didn’t feel like bothering with those since I know for sure those are locked behind the expansion which I will not get.
Most likely I will only look into details when I run into them in different context that’s more of interest if that ever happens. Otherwise it’s in game if I look at them. All I know is that I don’t mean to do anything to gain or use any of those points, I hate that kind of stuff.
I can’t really find it in me to dig details for any feedback either.
What this does is stop me ranting about the current system but it’s not a direction I like at all. And I did just give up.

And maybe in a year or two they will change all the game systems again. /sigh

Lemondish.3268:

Meglobob.8620:

Isn’t this new trait system effectively the N(ew)P(layer)E(xperience) system being reskinned, rebranded and put into HoT so we all after swallow it?

That’s not the impression I got. In fact, most of it is completely different from the current system. I’m not sure why you think it’s just a reskin when completely new functionality is being added.

Traced.3495:

I don’t think this new one is going to be tolerable in any way.

Says the guy who didn’t actually read or understand it. Here’s a summary:

Only three trait lines can be chosen, but you can pick the grandmaster on all those lines. This means that every build will have exactly 9 Minor Traits and 9 Major Traits. Also, choosing a trait line will immediately give you some additional attributes or improvement to your class mechanic. This change makes it impossible to splash 1 point in a fourth trait line, but it’s not like many current builds do it anyway.

Trait choices will be more focused and easier to understand, but also more restricted. Every major trait will have only three choices and you won’t be able to pick a trait from previous tiers: for example you can’t choose an Adept trait on Grandmaster tier. Traits will be more powerful and you will be able to pick 2 more than before (9 Major Traits against the current 7), but choice will be a bit more limited (only 3 Adept, 3 Master, and 3 Grandmaster traits against the current 6 Adept, 4 Master, and 3 Grandmaster).

New profession specializations are actually one new trait line. As simple as that. Choosing that line will give you new skills, a new equippable weapon, and new class mechanics. This also means that you will be able to choose only two among other trait lines. [Personal note: I am a bit worried that profession specializations may be too similar to core professions… but we’ll see].

Professions will decide base attribute points, traits lines and gear will do the rest. Every player will have 1000 base points on every stat, then profession will add some points, then each chosen specialization will add more, and finally equipment will do the same. This means that some professions may have higher power that others, a bit like Warrior has currently more health and armor that others.

Unlocks in PvE are basically unchanged, while in PvP everything will be unlocked from start. They renamed “Skill Points” into “Hero Points”, but the concept is basically the same, except that you (probably) won’t be able to get more Hero Points than what you need to unlock everything. By spending points on a track you will unlock traits and skills related to that particular track: for example the “Signet Track” for Warrior will unlock Signet skills and maybe traits that influence Signet usage. No more hunting down traits through specific content – just do what you want in PvE and you’ll unlock them via hero points (aka skill points).

the problem is that the grandmasters HAVE to compansate for the adabt trait people chose for their builds.

you ahve MANY build on meta battle right now that had to put TWO adebt traits in ONE trait line because neither one of the major or master traits were useable for that build.
right now i have a hammer war that uses Merciless hammer and cleansing ire, BOTH major traits, since the master traits are not helpful for the build. they are TOO situational for the build i can not use them properly.

and ele will be kittened since ever single ele build has arcane trait line invested atleast 2 points. whil the other are destributed to three others.
Not tomention they also have alot of of minor and major trait on master slots since for their builds they are not useful.

then there is the idiotic conversion of skill points to mats.
WHY?
there is a good reaosn why didnt spend those points yet. but im literly forced to take mats now i have no kittenign space in ym bank for. am i supposed to by the optional bank space then? why? why can´t i jsut keep my points as points onyl converted to the hero points?

phys.7689:

Lemondish.3268:

Professions will decide base attribute points, traits lines and gear will do the rest. Every player will have 1000 base points on every stat, then profession will add some points, then each chosen specialization will add more, and finally equipment will do the same. This means that some professions may have higher power that others, a bit like Warrior has currently more health and armor that others.

ahhh didnt really understand that proffesion based stat thing till you said it.
That blows.
some proffessions will just be built kitten (toughness/vit stats)

I’m not sure that’s correct.

“We feel that separating build choices from stat decisions provides greater build flexibility, so you’ll no longer gain attribute points through a given line.

Each profession’s attributes will be updated to have half of their functionality be part of a specialization and half of their functionality will be a baseline for that profession. For example, elementalists now have a base attunement recharge of 10 seconds, which is reduced to 8.7 seconds when the arcane specialization is equipped."

It looks to me that the only attributes that will be profession-specific are the ones that are already profession-specific, like the example, attunement recharge.

Either that or the blog is contradicting itself, which I won’t rule out.

I am not entirely sure, but it does look like we might be railroaded into specific builds more, less choice to experiment and find a unique build of our own, even if it’s not the most efficient. I frequently end up with slightly odd builds as I am more concerned with personal survival while out roaming rather than specific DPS, etc cookie cutter builds.

In my opinion things start to go downhill when that choice is taken away. I know a certain other game, where every expansion meant that the talents were reworked and slowly took virtually all choice away so that players couldn’t ‘make mistakes’ with their builds.

Most of the player base does have a degree of intelligence, please let us make our own mistakes, and have our own eureka moments when we find a build that works specifically for us and our play style.

It could be an interesting system, and I’m certainly glad that the arduous task list isout the window.

The acquisition system seems much better. The actual system itself I have some reservations about, but will see how it goes. If nothing else, it all seems to be a less disjointed set of systems but is coming together with a set design philosophy, as opposed to the ever hugely changing set of them in the past. If it all works out well, then great. I hope it does and have a small part of me thinking it will. But the proof will be in the experiencing.

If it goes well, then I’ll be very happy to say the game is finally getting on the right track after a year of an awful core mechanic being inflicted upon the playerbase. But if Anet are looking for plaudits for changing that system and listening to players, then they will be waiting a long while for it from me. This concrete news of changes was a good 6-8 months too late for them to feel happy about how they have treated us.

Oenanthe.6549:

I am not entirely sure, but it does look like we might be railroaded into specific builds more, less choice to experiment and find a unique build of our own, even if it’s not the most efficient. I frequently end up with slightly odd builds as I am more concerned with personal survival while out roaming rather than specific DPS, etc cookie cutter builds.

In my opinion things start to go downhill when that choice is taken away. I know a certain other game, where every expansion meant that the talents were reworked and slowly took virtually all choice away so that players couldn’t ‘make mistakes’ with their builds.

Most of the player base does have a degree of intelligence, please let us make our own mistakes, and have our own eureka moments when we find a build that works specifically for us and our play style.

I have to admit when I saw today’s trait blog, that other game’s trait changes came to mind.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Oenanthe.6549:

I am not entirely sure, but it does look like we might be railroaded into specific builds more, less choice to experiment and find a unique build of our own, even if it’s not the most efficient. I frequently end up with slightly odd builds as I am more concerned with personal survival while out roaming rather than specific DPS, etc cookie cutter builds.

In my opinion things start to go downhill when that choice is taken away. I know a certain other game, where every expansion meant that the talents were reworked and slowly took virtually all choice away so that players couldn’t ‘make mistakes’ with their builds.

Most of the player base does have a degree of intelligence, please let us make our own mistakes, and have our own eureka moments when we find a build that works specifically for us and our play style.

I have to admit when I saw today’s trait blog, that other game’s trait changes came to mind.

what game exactly are you talking about?

/nervously looks over shoulder, then whispers ‘WoW’.

Simplification does seem to be the path most games are taking these days. I’m guessing its because it just makes the game easier to manage overall, but who knows.

The “adjustments” to the trait and skill acquisition was an interesting read. I’m guessing mastery/reward tracks are a popular thing., thus the influence here. We’ll see how it plays out I guess, though it doesn’t really ‘feel’ overly different than what we had to begin with, just buying all our skills with skill points and traits just being available after unlocking the specific tier. I’m going to wait to give it a whirl before I judge it too harshly though.

I do like the ‘specializations’ change, or at least it sounds like I will. Depends on what the ele grand master traits end up being when they are done ‘cleaning up.’

Traced.3495:

Lemondish.3268:

Traced.3495:

I don’t think this new one is going to be tolerable in any way.

Says the guy who didn’t actually read or understand it. Here’s a summary:

Tolerable to me means the original system or something equally accessible.

The new system involves leveling to 80 and doing the existing skill point challenges (to be renamed hero challenges) currently in the game; these are the only way to unlock things. Instead of unlocking traits at fixed levels and unlocking skills individually, both will be unlocked progressively by spending the Hero points you earn doing those above two thing in the respective tracks for the trait or skill line. It’s equally accessible to the original system.

why is this being done is the 1st question, the current system isn’t broken to any great extent…
getting rid of skill points, fine, but id better not end up with any “odd” points left over, like I did with the transformation points fiasco, ive still got a couple in my bank I cant do anything with.
and any loss of build choice is bad, making it “easier to build” isn’kittens taking out choice, as others have said above, I build my build, for me, for what I want, it may not be " the OMG elite super cookie cutter build" that’s on all the websites, as If wanted to do that kind of thing id play a game with real exploitable stuff ( why Hello there D&D 3rd ed with all the other producers feats and prestige classes) and really make a total OTT nasty.
As has been said in other conversations “12 is the minimum age to play the game, not the target age”

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Simplification does seem to be the path most games are taking these days. I’m guessing its because it just makes the game easier to manage overall, but who knows.

It’s also because the complexity ends up generating useless builds that no one ever uses if they know how to play the game, resulting in options that present only the illusion of choice, while complicating balance, and screwing over less savvy players.

There are currently only a handful of viable builds per profession, and using anything else isn’t just mildly suboptimal, it’s generally massively suboptimal. After a game’s been out for a while and those better options are clearly understood it makes sense to pare the system down to something that’s built off the scaffold of what works with some additions to round out viable builds to cover the design intent for that profession.

So easier to manage, yes, but also much better for players; tighter build focuses, better signaling of intent, etc.

steelpenguin.1860:

why is this being done is the 1st question, the current system isn’t broken to any great extent…
getting rid of skill points, fine, but id better not end up with any “odd” points left over, like I did with the transformation points fiasco, ive still got a couple in my bank I cant do anything with.
and any loss of build choice is bad, making it “easier to build” isn’kittens taking out choice, as others have said above, I build my build, for me, for what I want, it may not be " the OMG elite super cookie cutter build" that’s on all the websites, as If wanted to do that kind of thing id play a game with real exploitable stuff ( why Hello there D&D 3rd ed with all the other producers feats and prestige classes) and really make a total OTT nasty.
As has been said in other conversations “12 is the minimum age to play the game, not the target age”

Under the current system, there are fewer than ten core builds per profession that actually work. And by work, I mean taking anything else is a significant reduction in viability, not just a minor one.

Under the new system there are 27 trait combinations per line times 6 lines arranged in sets of 3. That’s more than enough to give us at least as many viable build choices as we have now. The things that are going away in terms of choice are bad options. Letting you be a special snowflake that dies 5x more often or takes 3x longer to kill something is not a healthy trade off for the game to be making.

Eolirin.1830:

steelpenguin.1860:

why is this being done is the 1st question, the current system isn’t broken to any great extent…
getting rid of skill points, fine, but id better not end up with any “odd” points left over, like I did with the transformation points fiasco, ive still got a couple in my bank I cant do anything with.
and any loss of build choice is bad, making it “easier to build” isn’kittens taking out choice, as others have said above, I build my build, for me, for what I want, it may not be " the OMG elite super cookie cutter build" that’s on all the websites, as If wanted to do that kind of thing id play a game with real exploitable stuff ( why Hello there D&D 3rd ed with all the other producers feats and prestige classes) and really make a total OTT nasty.
As has been said in other conversations “12 is the minimum age to play the game, not the target age”

Under the current system, there are fewer than ten core builds per profession that actually work. And by work, I mean taking anything else is a significant reduction in viability, not just a minor one.

Under the new system there are 27 trait combinations per line times 6 lines arranged in sets of 3. That’s more than enough to give us at least as many viable build choices as we have now. The things that are going away in terms of choice are bad options. Letting you be a special snowflake that dies 5x more often or takes 3x longer to kill something is not a healthy trade off for the game to be making.

Except the problem of some of those choices will soon be labelled “sub optimum” and will be written off, and how is “my choice” bad, it may take me longer to do stuff, but if im soloing so what, perhaps ive done this build just to try a “hard” build, and see how far I can get with a setup that every one else has failed with.. The central point is that its my choice, its not like ive taken multi blade penknife and bassoon!! I find my char builds fun, if im not having fun, im playing the game wrong, after all that’s why were playing isn’kitten to have fun……

and it seems the kitten filter don’t like isn’t ( space) it……
ahhh now I see its a strange spelling thing isn’kitten it

another problem is EVEN viable build have MANY occasions were you ahve TWO major traits of ONE trait section active sinc ethe grandmaster simply sucks for the build you trying to play. from my current 17 toons 8 builds have this goin on. and its not Oh you could repalce it situations, they a vital to that build.

not to mention MANY builds that ARE meta actualy need FOUR traitlines.
many ele builds some guardians builds, tanky war stuff.
all gone.

and the thign is most otherbuild relied on the three trait build ONLY because of the stats, which are also redestributed away from them. so in that case it means i WOULD have bene able to make a viable Burn condi guardian with hammer without sacrifacing ANY points from a condi trait jsut to make the hammer more useable.
thats literly the only thing that stops my guardian from beeing extermly useful, JUST the stats.
I could use the traits i need and they are scattered over four traitlines.
WELL I GUESS THATS GOIN TO BE IMPOSSIBLE NOW

and then there is this skillpoint exchange BÜLL KRÄP

mats? really? and probably the kitten thing you can buy with skill points? the onces that DON`T have a freakin mat slot in the bank? the mats that would then fill up my normal anks slots? which would then FORCE me to by more bank space in the item shop?
TALKING ABOUT OPTIONAL (also the bank needs tabs for toys and other stuff)

Eolirin.1830:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Simplification does seem to be the path most games are taking these days. I’m guessing its because it just makes the game easier to manage overall, but who knows.

It’s also because the complexity ends up generating useless builds that no one ever uses if they know how to play the game, resulting in options that present only the illusion of choice, while complicating balance, and screwing over less savvy players.

There are currently only a handful of viable builds per profession, and using anything else isn’t just mildly suboptimal, it’s generally massively suboptimal. After a game’s been out for a while and those better options are clearly understood it makes sense to pare the system down to something that’s built off the scaffold of what works with some additions to round out viable builds to cover the design intent for that profession.

So easier to manage, yes, but also much better for players; tighter build focuses, better signaling of intent, etc.

Tell that to all of the people already griping about the death of diversity with this change.

I wasn’t going to broach the topic of useless builds or bloated skills due to the volatility of that general conversation. I get that people like having hundreds of skills, I’m a GW1 vet too. However, I also understand that like 90% of them were worthless

They need to make it so people are grandfathered into this. So that people that already have every trait unlocked will still have every trait unlocked after this change. I like the idea of splitting the stat points from the traits and allowing 3 maxed out branches. I hate the idea of less traits and being limited to only 3 branches. I think it would be better if they made it so you could spend the extra stat points like in the current system but just don’t tie the traits to them.

They really need a PBE server for testing. That any player can logon to see what’s coming and test it. And they should listen to player feedback about that server.

http://massivelyop.net/2015/04/23/exclusive-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-interview-unwraps-specializations-and-traits/

Notice the use of the phrase ‘VIABLE builds’ in this interview. Clearly, they recognize that this is going to reduce total build diversity, with the hope of making more builds actually useful.

I reserve judgment until I see the fully revamped trait lines, which is what we’re seeing tomorrow on twitch right? It’s impossible to know how good builds will be without knowing how traits have been merged, altered, shuffled, and dropped.

My Elemetalists would all like to know… What happened to our Arcane Magic??? ~Merry Rose ~ Tenui ~ Tana ~

I read the two articles and no explanation was given about why the Arcane Magic was removed.

Merrydew.4079:

My Elemetalists would all like to know… What happened to our Arcane Magic??? ~Merry Rose ~ Tenui ~ Tana ~

I read the two articles and no explanation was given about why the Arcane Magic was removed.

It hasn’t been removed. Look at the list of reward tracks.

I thought the Blogs were pretty clear on most points, but they DID leave some important stuff out.

1) It was mentioned that this new system will be much less of a burden to players that have many alts…. How???

2) Our Excess Skill points and scrolls will be converted into Mystic Toilet crap….
Will this turn all of our skill points into a specific mat that will ultimately turn into whatever garbage the Mystic Toilet decides to spit out? Or will we get to trade our excess skill points for specific things through a vendor.

3) How many Hero Points are required for one trait line and When does a character start accumulating hero points ? level 30? 20? or do we get 1 point per level? 1-80

Hope On The Horizon

I have been very strident in my criticism of the NPE and trait changes, and they have basically pushed me away from active play for many more months than I could have ever expected, but I am quite encouraged by Jon’s posts on Specializations.

I think I can see where the designers want to go with character development, and if I’m right, I think I can get on board with it.

At the very least, I’m relieved to see some tacit acknowledgement of the problems with the current regime in Jon’s narrative, and a likewise tacit but nonetheless tangible commitment to not repeat the major mistakes of the past year.

There’s still a lot of uncertainty — and, frankly, some distrust — to clear up, but where I had previously been in no mood to even consider purchasing Heart of Thorns, I can see it happening now.

I’d call that progress.

I know everyone is waiting with bated breath to hear what I think about this news (yes, sarcasm!) so I thought I’d try and get some thoughts together about it. I’m sick and my head is cloudy on account of meds and generally being sick, so please forgive any obvious errors I make, here.

Cautiously Optimistic

Over the last year +, I’ve learned to be extremely wary of any changes to the game, but I have to remind myself that not all the changes have been detrimental. Certainly there are stand-outs that have, for me, overshadowed the good changes, but I’m no longer as invested as I was (for better or worse), and so it doesn’t really cost me anything to hope for the best (“best” is subjective here, and means “best I can muster to hope for,” of course). This may not seem overly optimistic, but it’s a distinct improvement over where I’ve been.

Why Optimism?

Well, a few reasons, really:

• It means getting rid of the current trait system. That one thing is such a huge relief, I really cannot overstate this.
• The only currency that was mentioned are the hero points, which are obtained from the current skill challenges. This outright solves two major issues I have with the current system- punitive cost, and reliance on events that are unclear, have long cooldowns, or are bugged. The skill challenges are marked clearly on the map, they are on-demand events, and it’s really easy to get help from people in the map. (Note: I am taking this at face-value, until I know differently.)
• I touched on this above, but something that was heavily suggested in the threads has been to make trait unlocks more like skill challenges. I’ve said it would buy a lot of goodwill back from me, and it does.
• It sounds like a return to the simplicity of playing the game for character progression.

Things We Don’t Know

I am not excessively worried about these things, but I hope they are addressed soon.

• When in the leveling process can we start accessing traits?
• This seems like it may impact the NPE leveling drag, by tying skill unlocks into this whole reward track system. This is a very positive thing, if so and I would love to hear more about how leveling up will be impacted by these new systems.
• Will tomes of knowledge be changed into mystic forge mats?

Timing

It took 3 months to get this amount of information out to us, and there is a lot of padding in those posts. Are we going to get more regular updates? Should we expect to continue the 3 month gap?

Verdict

Based on what we know right now, it already feels like a system that has had much more thought put into it- and I should bloody well hope so, given that it’s been over a year.

I still think the cost of the current system should be reduced to be minimal in the meantime, but that’s going to be your angry crowd to handle, not mine.

I’m willing to wait and see, regarding the new system. I don’t think we have enough information to really be able to gauge how it’ll feel in the open world, at present. It’s possible that this will be tedious and awful in ways I can’t think of, right now. That’s just a fact that ANET has taught me over the last year. But I also have to remind myself that it’s possible that this will hit the right notes and, at least for me, make the game enjoyable again.

And, truthfully, if the game is enjoyable for me again, I’d be more willing to overlook a number of flaws.

Plus, the interfaces look cool.

So, that’s where I’m at with the announcement, after some thought and lots of cold medicine. Thanks for sticking with it over the last year. I’d love to lay this particular topic to rest (at some point, after we’ve seen how it plays and have given feedback on it, obviously- not, like, tomorrow) and cross paths with some of you in other areas.

To cautious optimism!

EDIT: Haha, looks like Majic has swooped in and stolen my thunder, with a much more succinct and well-stated summary of pretty much what I’ve just said. Ah, well.

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

Lemondish.3268:

Professions will decide base attribute points, traits lines and gear will do the rest. Every player will have 1000 base points on every stat, then profession will add some points, then each chosen specialization will add more, and finally equipment will do the same. This means that some professions may have higher power that others, a bit like Warrior has currently more health and armor that others.

ahhh didnt really understand that proffesion based stat thing till you said it.
That blows.
some proffessions will just be built kitten (toughness/vit stats)

I’m not sure that’s correct.

“We feel that separating build choices from stat decisions provides greater build flexibility, so you’ll no longer gain attribute points through a given line.

Each profession’s attributes will be updated to have half of their functionality be part of a specialization and half of their functionality will be a baseline for that profession. For example, elementalists now have a base attunement recharge of 10 seconds, which is reduced to 8.7 seconds when the arcane specialization is equipped."

It looks to me that the only attributes that will be profession-specific are the ones that are already profession-specific, like the example, attunement recharge.

Either that or the blog is contradicting itself, which I won’t rule out.

half will be part of the specialization, thats the ele base recast lowered with arcane trait line.
half will be proffession linked: “Each profession’s attributes will be updated…. half of their functionality will be a baseline for that profession.”

now, i could easily see this interpretation being incorrect, because it does seem to go against stats being mostly on armors, but thats what what they wrote says now that i look at it carefully.

I am encouraged by this. This will make or break the expansion, imo, and it feels like they are picking a good, comprehensive solution, though there are parts that I don’t like.

Still, I will hold off on buying hot until I play these base systems with a new character.

Overall, I agree with this trajectory. Good design choice overall, Anet. I am very much looking forward to finding out how this interacts and plays out with More Challenging Content.