Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Yeah, I wish we knew exactly how many new zones we’re getting and how big they’re going to be. When the game launched there was what? 22 large zones to explore?

I hope there’s at least half that many in the expansion.

My guess is 3 new zones.

Colin said they dont really want a very big world.

Expect no more than Southsun, Drytop, and Silverwastes as far as size goes.

phys.7689:

Colin said they dont really want a very big world.

Are you serious?! Why would they feel that way? More zones means more content to keep people busy. A large world also brings in new players that want to get a lot for their money and justify the length of time a game has been out.

Celtic Lady.3729:

phys.7689:

Colin said they dont really want a very big world.

Are you serious?! Why would they feel that way? More zones means more content to keep people busy. A large world also brings in new players that want to get a lot for their money and justify the length of time a game has been out.

I’m supportive of more zones, no matter how empty or busy they are. However, how can you justify having anet make zones like say lonar that are very large but abandoned/empty aside from the odd world boss? If the game’s direction is going towards more smallish (I really hope 1.5x the size of silverwastes at the least) but more content rich environments vs. empty but large zones like Lornar’s or Mt. Malestrom, I’ll take the former.

All games have zones that are less busy and populated than others. Endgame zones usually have more players, but every game has areas used primarily while leveling. There’s nothing “bad” or unusual about this.

But that’s not even an issue in this game since every zone that ever comes out will be level 80 because the cap is never going up. They’d all be viable zones for people once they’ve leveled, so there’s no reason to LIMIT them. I honestly don’t see how this makes any sense either from a business perspective or a player’s enjoyment perspective.

phys.7689:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Yeah, I wish we knew exactly how many new zones we’re getting and how big they’re going to be. When the game launched there was what? 22 large zones to explore?

I hope there’s at least half that many in the expansion.

My guess is 3 new zones.

Colin said they dont really want a very big world.

I hope it’s 5-6 new zones, that’s far more acceptable than 3.

3 seems kind of ridiculous for an actual expansion. Expansions normally involve a significant addition of map content. That’s kind of the point, after all. We’ve finished with the previous locations and want new ones to keep us busy.

In LOTRO, for instance, an update that is a fraction of the cost of a real expansion introduces 1-3 new zones of content.

RyuDragnier.9476:

phys.7689:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Yeah, I wish we knew exactly how many new zones we’re getting and how big they’re going to be. When the game launched there was what? 22 large zones to explore?

I hope there’s at least half that many in the expansion.

My guess is 3 new zones.

Colin said they dont really want a very big world.

I hope it’s 5-6 new zones, that’s far more acceptable than 3.

well, they said its one region they are adding;
currently regions range from 3-7 zones.

so you can expect that range.

lakonas.4317:

A small drop of positivity:

ANet said, that you get 400 hero points for getting to 80. You will need other 65 to get full unlocks. But is 400 not enough? Surely, you will not need every skill in the game to enjoy playing.

If someone already has every skill and trait unlocked, then yes they need every skill. If they can’t figure out how to keep everyone where they currently are when it comes to unlocking everything then they should not change it. It screams incompetence.

With the new trait system coming up can we remove all the costs for purchasing individual skill points to zero?

The current system when implemented only punished newer players and continues to do so. When the new system hits all players will be affected and will have to under-go it. So why not lighten up the existing system?

For those derailing the conversation to number of zones and zone size: Welcome to the conversation a couple months ago.

Esreyr.6304:

With the new trait system coming up can we remove all the costs for purchasing individual skill points to zero?

The current system when implemented only punished newer players and continues to do so. When the new system hits all players will be affected and will have to under-go it. So why not lighten up the existing system?

The system is still here. It still rankles us. I’ve shifted my play to working on my 80s instead of my alts, getting skill challenges done now, so I won’t have to kewkew about “lost progress” later. But, now I definitely won’t be buying traits unless I absolutely have to, which is going to suck for my upcoming alts. It makes me sad, but I’m patient about things like that.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

lakonas.4317:

A small drop of positivity:

ANet said, that you get 400 hero points for getting to 80. You will need other 65 to get full unlocks. But is 400 not enough? Surely, you will not need every skill in the game to enjoy playing.

If someone already has every skill and trait unlocked, then yes they need every skill. If they can’t figure out how to keep everyone where they currently are when it comes to unlocking everything then they should not change it. It screams incompetence.

Are you sincerely suggesting that leaving the current system in place is a better option than getting a completely new system?

It doesn’t scream incompetence. It’s not the same system. You cannot both change things fundamentally and also keep everyone where they currently are. It’s not possible.

This response is just mystifying me. I have been waiting for a new system for a year. So far, based upon what we know, this is just overwhelming good news. I cannot believe that you want to quibble over something that may or may not even end up impacting most people in live, as we don’t even know what it’s going to look like. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater, here.

Guhracie.3419:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

lakonas.4317:

A small drop of positivity:

ANet said, that you get 400 hero points for getting to 80. You will need other 65 to get full unlocks. But is 400 not enough? Surely, you will not need every skill in the game to enjoy playing.

If someone already has every skill and trait unlocked, then yes they need every skill. If they can’t figure out how to keep everyone where they currently are when it comes to unlocking everything then they should not change it. It screams incompetence.

Are you sincerely suggesting that leaving the current system in place is a better option than getting a completely new system?

It doesn’t scream incompetence. It’s not the same system. You cannot both change things fundamentally and also keep everyone where they currently are. It’s not possible.

This response is just mystifying me. I have been waiting for a new system for a year. So far, based upon what we know, this is just overwhelming good news. I cannot believe that you want to quibble over something that may or may not even end up impacting most people in live, as we don’t even know what it’s going to look like. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater, here.

I’m with you. I’ve not been playing at all (unless you call parking by rich plat node and mining it and the login reward most days as playing) while waiting for trait revamp. While I have issues with the nuts and bolts of the new system, it looks better than what we have now by a long shot. I hope they address the issue of too many niche choices in trait lines/tiers. I think it would be nice if there was some way to accommodate those who avoided the skill challenges in the persistent world.

Maybe they could convert a set number of post-80 skill points into the requisite 65 hero points to get full unlock of the core skills/traits. There’s going to be a database entry for total skill points earned. Subtract 76 for the points earned via leveling (which feed into the 400 Hero points in the new system). There’s going to be a record of which skill challenges were completed by the character, so subtract those. Whatever skill points are left over were earned via post-80 “leveling” or via scrolls. Set some number of skill points to convert to Hero points to get to 465 for core completion, then convert the rest to the new MF mat currency.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Guhracie.3419:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

lakonas.4317:

A small drop of positivity:

ANet said, that you get 400 hero points for getting to 80. You will need other 65 to get full unlocks. But is 400 not enough? Surely, you will not need every skill in the game to enjoy playing.

If someone already has every skill and trait unlocked, then yes they need every skill. If they can’t figure out how to keep everyone where they currently are when it comes to unlocking everything then they should not change it. It screams incompetence.

Are you sincerely suggesting that leaving the current system in place is a better option than getting a completely new system?

It doesn’t scream incompetence. It’s not the same system. You cannot both change things fundamentally and also keep everyone where they currently are. It’s not possible.

This response is just mystifying me. I have been waiting for a new system for a year. So far, based upon what we know, this is just overwhelming good news. I cannot believe that you want to quibble over something that may or may not even end up impacting most people in live, as we don’t even know what it’s going to look like. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater, here.

I’m with you. I’ve not been playing at all (unless you call parking by rich plat node and mining it and the login reward most days as playing) while waiting for trait revamp. While I have issues with the nuts and bolts of the new system, it looks better than what we have now by a long shot. I hope they address the issue of too many niche choices in trait lines/tiers. I think it would be nice if there was some way to accommodate those who avoided the skill challenges in the persistent world.

Maybe they could convert a set number of post-80 skill points into the requisite 65 hero points to get full unlock of the core skills/traits. There’s going to be a database entry for total skill points earned. Subtract 76 for the points earned via leveling (which feed into the 400 Hero points in the new system). There’s going to be a record of which skill challenges were completed by the character, so subtract those. Whatever skill points are left over were earned via post-80 “leveling” or via scrolls. Set some number of skill points to convert to Hero points to get to 465 for core completion, then convert the rest to the new MF mat currency.

Hopefully, weeks in advance, ANet just states how points/related items are being converted to hero points or mystic forge wildcards and we move forward. That’s all people really want so that they have a few weeks to get things in order (i.e. use the scrolls/buy the skills/eat the cake/etc.)

Did they ever state that the hero challenges around the world would award a single hero point? Because the leveling points are getting quite a boost. I’m wondering if the challenges are going to award 5. (It seems like a nice number.) That would certainly improve things for the WvW crowd.

not sure. I’ve at least secured a enough points on my engie now thanks to some focused running through maps (apologies to people I dragged mobs onto) so her skills and traits shouldn’t be an issue to secure fully again. Not looking forward to doing that about 5 more times though. Ironically, my new necro that I was trying to make a concerted effort to earn the traits via events may be set to unlock everything come the change over so she will be in a better place than my other alts.

Guhracie.3419:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

lakonas.4317:

A small drop of positivity:

ANet said, that you get 400 hero points for getting to 80. You will need other 65 to get full unlocks. But is 400 not enough? Surely, you will not need every skill in the game to enjoy playing.

If someone already has every skill and trait unlocked, then yes they need every skill. If they can’t figure out how to keep everyone where they currently are when it comes to unlocking everything then they should not change it. It screams incompetence.

Are you sincerely suggesting that leaving the current system in place is a better option than getting a completely new system?

It doesn’t scream incompetence. It’s not the same system. You cannot both change things fundamentally and also keep everyone where they currently are. It’s not possible.

This response is just mystifying me. I have been waiting for a new system for a year. So far, based upon what we know, this is just overwhelming good news. I cannot believe that you want to quibble over something that may or may not even end up impacting most people in live, as we don’t even know what it’s going to look like. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater, here.

I don’t see any of it as good news honestly. I see that they gave us a completely terrible system that they knew everyone would hate and are now switching to the backup plan that most would hate but since its “not as bad” as what we have now people are praising it like its the best thing since buttered bread. Its still BS being forced to grind for something that we used to get for pretty much free(3.5g). And the amount of content to come with the expansion is pitiful because Colin doesn’t want a “big world”.

To be honest, all my 80s have 100% map completion so they won’t really be affected. This game was amazing at launch, so amazing that it jumped to the top 5 list for MMOs. Now people are cheering for crap. When crap is better than what you have now its bad. So yeah to me it says incompetence or deceit when they can’t do something like keep players with full or partial unlocks at the same spot regardless of how they got those things unlocked.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Wouldn’t be that hard to pull off, IMO. I say this simply because if you abuse the starter zones and go after their skill challenges, that’s exactly 36 out of the 65 you need, half of them right there. After that, it’s simply of going to the next lowest level zones. Here’s the math, starting with all the starter zones, with their total number in there, followed by the total point number you’ll have afterwards.

Queensdale (7; 7)
Caledon Forest (7; 14)
Metrica Province (8; 22)
Wayfarer Foothills (8; 30)
Plains of Ashford (6; 36)
Diessa Plateau (8; 44)
Snowden Drifts (6; 50)
Kessex Hills (5; 55)
Brisbain Wildlands (8; 63)

From there you only need 2 skill challenges from wherever, and you’re done. That’s if I’m getting the amount you need total correct, that is. It’s not really a hard undertaking, just a bit of normal PvE leveling first. It’s actually the route I take when leveling new characters (in terms of starter, then higher level zones).

It’s definitely not a legendary amount of effort, but that’s a quite a bit of running around just to get back something I’ve already earned on my characters. Especially if it’s more than one character.

Gibson.4036:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Wouldn’t be that hard to pull off, IMO. I say this simply because if you abuse the starter zones and go after their skill challenges, that’s exactly 36 out of the 65 you need, half of them right there. After that, it’s simply of going to the next lowest level zones. Here’s the math, starting with all the starter zones, with their total number in there, followed by the total point number you’ll have afterwards.

Queensdale (7; 7)
Caledon Forest (7; 14)
Metrica Province (8; 22)
Wayfarer Foothills (8; 30)
Plains of Ashford (6; 36)
Diessa Plateau (8; 44)
Snowden Drifts (6; 50)
Kessex Hills (5; 55)
Brisbain Wildlands (8; 63)

From there you only need 2 skill challenges from wherever, and you’re done. That’s if I’m getting the amount you need total correct, that is. It’s not really a hard undertaking, just a bit of normal PvE leveling first. It’s actually the route I take when leveling new characters (in terms of starter, then higher level zones).

It’s definitely not a legendary amount of effort, but that’s a quite a bit of running around just to get back something I’ve already earned on my characters. Especially if it’s more than one character.

It doesn’t seem so daunting when only looking at it on a single character, but when you think that you have to do 9-10 zones per character and if you have 6+ level 80s then it starts becoming busy work, and that is incredibly unfair to vets who’ve already unlocked everything!

From what I can tell the new system will trade experimentation and build diversity for simplicity and hand-holding. To me trait selection is part of the skill of playing the game. In order for a game to be based on skill, there needs to be a chance of failure. Generous respeccing is a far better way to mitigate poor decisions than limiting choices.

I’ll certainly fire up this system when it goes live to see if it’s as restrictive as these early indications, but I expect to be disappointed by it.

I think anything that gets put out at this point will be viewed as over simplified by many vets familiar with the game and the mechanics, but that doesn’t necessarily make it so. I’m all for streamlining the process so there is less of a barrier to entry for using the system as opposed to something that is too convoluted and making it so many people barely pay attention to it, even in or especially in PvE since you can probably get through with a mess of traits in that game mode as it is.

I’ll wait until I can put it through its paces to say if I like it more or less than what we had at the start of the game.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

not sure. I’ve at least secured a enough points on my engie now thanks to some focused running through maps (apologies to people I dragged mobs onto) so her skills and traits shouldn’t be an issue to secure fully again. Not looking forward to doing that about 5 more times though. Ironically, my new necro that I was trying to make a concerted effort to earn the traits via events may be set to unlock everything come the change over so she will be in a better place than my other alts.

Even if it’s a 1:1 system, there’s enough skill points out there that it shouldnt be hard to unlock everything fairly quickly. ’Sides, people will probably spend a week or so tinkering around with new traits, and will probably wander maps for functional results (ie wander maps, hit skill challenges, kill stuff and move on).

So apparently we’ll no longer get stats from our trait lines and instead the base and armor stats will “make up the difference.” Sounds fair enough but for one simple thing, what about the people who spent countless hours and gold building ascended armor sets that compliment the stats from their chosen trait lines? Example: the traits I desire for my necromancer are all in the power/condi-duration, precision/condi-damage, and the ferocity/life-force lines. Therefore, I built a knights armor with 5 part golemancer runes n one eagle and mixed trinkets, zerk amulet n rings, cav back and "earrings"set to compensate for the lack of any toughness since I’m not foolish enough to run total glass-caster (thief fodder/rally-bot) in WvW. Basically, the 300 power and ferocity from my chosen trait lines was a HUGE factor in choosing my armor, runes, and trinkets! (and weapons but they’re all zerk)
So now what? My armor stats get boosted which will leave me with a heck of allot more toughness than I need and my power to toughness ratio goes down because it’s a minor stat of my armor? So to get my desired balance, am I going to have to craft yet ANOTHER set??? Or will we get an opportunity to alter the stats on our ascended armor? Crafting another set is definitely NOT on my list of desired things to do and I’m certainly not looking to be some useless tank necro…..

Or am I under-informed of something and over-reacting?

This is one of the reasons I didn’t craft ascended armor. One patch can put all that in the trash.

I only have exotic armor but I chose my traits and my Ascended jewelry to balance out my beserker armor and weapons. My hammer guardian has lots of toughness, vitality and healing with her trait line choices to make her tanky while doing a lot of damage.

This is a problem that is going to hit a lot of people.

To the moderator: I really don’t see how my thread got merged with this one…..

I believe its because you said the words “trait lines” in your post.

In either case, yeah if you were relying on those stats to offset your armor stats then you will have to find another way to distribute those points.

Fiddle Irk.9710:

To the moderator: I really don’t see how my thread got merged with this one…..

Because this subject is relevant to the discussion of the new trait system. Hopefully, it means they’ll read it, and take it into consideration.

Edit: Oops, wrong thread.

Behellagh.1468:

As I said in an earlier post. But let me simplify it hear.

You have 100 players.

There is a 1 in 100 chance of X dropping as loot.

Everyone gets 229 loot drops from the same source.

The distribution of X is:

10 get 0
23 get 1
27 get 2
20 get 3
12 get 4
5 get 5
2 get 6
1 get 7

To the 10 that got 0 and seeing some players got 5-7, it’s only natural to think the fix is in or something is broken but that’s the mathematical distribution. We have 10 unlucky players and 7 lucky ones. Nothing is broken here. The fix isn’t in. It’s just math and the nature of probability.

huh? is this a bad merge?

Oh fudge, wrong thread. So embarrassed.

Too many tabs up. Writing too many replies at once.

Fiddle Irk.9710:

So apparently we’ll no longer get stats from our trait lines and instead the base and armor stats will “make up the difference.” Sounds fair enough but for one simple thing, what about the people who spent countless hours and gold building ascended armor sets that compliment the stats from their chosen trait lines? Example: the traits I desire for my necromancer are all in the power/condi-duration, precision/condi-damage, and the ferocity/life-force lines. Therefore, I built a knights armor with 5 part golemancer runes n one eagle and mixed trinkets, zerk amulet n rings, cav back and "earrings"set to compensate for the lack of any toughness since I’m not foolish enough to run total glass-caster (thief fodder/rally-bot) in WvW. Basically, the 300 power and ferocity from my chosen trait lines was a HUGE factor in choosing my armor, runes, and trinkets! (and weapons but they’re all zerk)
So now what? My armor stats get boosted which will leave me with a heck of allot more toughness than I need and my power to toughness ratio goes down because it’s a minor stat of my armor? So to get my desired balance, am I going to have to craft yet ANOTHER set??? Or will we get an opportunity to alter the stats on our ascended armor? Crafting another set is definitely NOT on my list of desired things to do and I’m certainly not looking to be some useless tank necro…..

Or am I under-informed of something and over-reacting?

I had not yet finished my ascended assassins heavy set when that stat combo got knocked almost totally out of usefulness by the crit/ferocity change. And I have been fearing the day they go hamfist and break the zerk meta outright in pve because I am 10 suits of ascended armor and more than 20 weapons in… While I have less to fear at this moment than you, for that assassins gear I did make, I do feel you on this one.

At this point honestly, if there is some massive, horribad shakeup then I would hope that existing ascended armors might get a shot at a stat swap. As you muse there at the end, it’s possible there could be enough of a balance hit to not trivialize your investment. I hope this turns out not as bad for you as it seems now.

Celtic Lady.3729:

3 seems kind of ridiculous for an actual expansion. Expansions normally involve a significant addition of map content. That’s kind of the point, after all. We’ve finished with the previous locations and want new ones to keep us busy.

In LOTRO, for instance, an update that is a fraction of the cost of a real expansion introduces 1-3 new zones of content.

And in SWTOR, it is less than that.

Sorry, the point can be made both ways.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

This is one of the reasons I didn’t craft ascended armor. One patch can put all that in the trash.

Yes. I just recently made the leap to 500 for tailor, but regretted it soon after. Since ArenaNet can tear up the foundation at any time so they can lay a new one to build on, it doesn’t make sense to spend all of that time and money on armor that gives such a small bonus.

Most of my characters are in Ascended jewelry, and I’ll think I’ll stop once I get done outfitting them in Ascended weapons. After that, it’s just not worth it. I’d rather spend money and time on cosmetics. At least those can be reapplied whenever ArenaNet decides to reinvent the wheel once again.

I’m concerned that I will have to repeat about 60 skill challenges (which will become hero challenges) for 7/8 of my level 80s (I have map completion on one char) in order to get all hero points necessary for leveling and specializations… Any word on what will happen to skill point scrolls? Should I use them now? or will any additional skill points beyond 80 just disappear and turn into crafting material rather than character progression usefulness with hero points? Or will they leave the amount useful to hero points and convert the rest post-80 so I should spend my skill point scrolls now?

The problem with the new trait system (besides other ones that have been mentioned) is that it doesn’t address the problem encountered when leveling which the previous change to the trait system created: Training wheels that make leveling the opposite of fun.

I recently purchased a second account, and I have to say: leveling in this game on a new account is painful, and not fun, there are way too many training wheels on a new character and a new account. You can avoid this on an account with at least one level 80 because you get tomes of knowledge from just playing the game which you can use to level alts.

Just because someone is new to a game doesn’t mean they are slow and stupid, a lot of people have been playing MMO’s and video games in general for a very long time, and thus understand the basics and how to figure out their class/game mechanics. They don’t need the game to hold their hand for 30 levels before they even get to play with traits. It doesn’t take that long to figure out your weapon skills, and most people can play with both trait combinations and weapon skills at the same time. The thing about gamers is: they understand how to multi-task. They have to, because like all games of this format: it is required just to play the game, even at it’s most basic levels.

In short: allow new characters to play with traits at low levels, instead of completely locking them out until level 30, and then only giving them 2 trait points every 10 levels or so. Locking them out of traits really doesn’t do anything but make combat painful and boring.

I’ve been gathering skill challenges on my alts to get everyone up to at least 65/189. Notably, the skill challenges in Dry Top and Silverwastes do not affect the map completion reading. Go into SW with 62/189, do two challenges, still at 62/189.

I understand that is because the map readout is for those things that go to the gold start and Gift of Exploration. No worries.

But do they still count as challenges completed when it comes time to swap over to the new trait system? And is there any way in-game for us to track our total skill challenge value, including SW/DT/WvW?

Donari.5237:

I’ve been gathering skill challenges on my alts to get everyone up to at least 65/189. Notably, the skill challenges in Dry Top and Silverwastes do not affect the map completion reading. Go into SW with 62/189, do two challenges, still at 62/189.

I understand that is because the map readout is for those things that go to the gold start and Gift of Exploration. No worries.

But do they still count as challenges completed when it comes time to swap over to the new trait system? And is there any way in-game for us to track our total skill challenge value, including SW/DT/WvW?

In the long session on the new system, the ANet folks said that there were ~220 skill challenges. Since map completion plus WvW = 202, the ones in DT and SW would have to be included. http://dulfy.net/2015/04/24/gw2-specializations-ama-livestream-notes/

As to the second question, the only way I know of would be manually: look at the filled-in icons in SW/DT and count, then add to what’s showing for world completion, and add the ones from WvW if applicable.

This is literally the first situation in which a mechanical aspect of the game is being locked behind a single specific game mode while impacting on other forms of play. Even ascended gear had the grace to allow it to be acquired from playing every single game mode. This is a blatant betrayal of the statement on which the game was sold to us that we wouldn’t be forced to prepare to have fun, and that we could play however we wanted.

Using their definition of no grind being that you can just play fun stuff, this is a blatant act of grinding, as people that don’t find skill challenges fun are going to be forced into playing them in order to unlock the mechanical aspects of their character.

I guess what I’d wonder then, if it were possible, and maybe (I know this is a big thing to ask as it never seems to work), but can we have someone ask around at Anet if its possible to have WvW like sPvP in so far as, when you enter it, you are “actually” level 80 and have access to the full trait trees and skills, even if you’re lower level? Armor can still be lowbie armor and players will just have to buy a second set they’d use exclusively in WvW along with weapons. (No need to normalize the stats like in PvP), but at least make them not have to worry about being an up-level or grind for the skills/traits). This way people who are exclusive WvW players can just do their thing and if they bring that toon in PvE they will be what ever level they’ve attained via experience and will need to use level appropriate armor and weapons, skills and traits that they have unlocked or can unlock in that game mode separate from WvW.

Basically, is that even possible and if so could it be implemented? I’d imagine it’d be a slight reworking of the PvP code.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

I guess what I’d wonder then, if it were possible, and maybe (I know this is a big thing to ask as it never seems to work), but can we have someone ask around at Anet if its possible to have WvW like sPvP in so far as, when you enter it, you are “actually” level 80 and have access to the full trait trees and skills, even if you’re lower level? Armor can still be lowbie armor and players will just have to buy a second set they’d use exclusively in WvW along with weapons. (No need to normalize the stats like in PvP), but at least make them not have to worry about being an up-level or grind for the skills/traits). This way people who are exclusive WvW players can just do their thing and if they bring that toon in PvE they will be what ever level they’ve attained via experience and will need to use level appropriate armor and weapons, skills and traits that they have unlocked or can unlock in that game mode separate from WvW.

Basically, is that even possible and if so could it be implemented? I’d imagine it’d be a slight reworking of the PvP code.

That fixes WvWvW. Characters that play dungeons/fractals while leveling through any means other than map completion are still forced into grinding other game modes for their abilities though.

WvW needs some kind of fix. Agreeing with Pookie’s idea above, if characters moved to WvW are upleveled, they could also have unlocks done there. It might involve adding a WvW bar along similar to how to the PvP bar is separate. So, going between PvE, WvW, and PvP the first time would require hashing out trait loads for each mode, but that’s hardly a problem.

PvE gear should still carry over, making it a suitable difference from PvP.

Worrying about dungeon/fractal levelers is dealing with a minuscule portion of the population: the intersection of dungeon-goers and also don’t explore and need 100% of their build options. I don’t expect a massive system shift to cater to that specific a group.
I’m also not especially worried about those who “paid” for unlocks in the current system, since that access was granted for the current system and duration. I’m pretty sure those paid gold and points were already re-gained in the course of play. And there is still plenty of time before the system launches to dig in and get skill challenges.

Whatever the devs decide, though, something needs to scripted out to support WvW players.

Eponet.4829:

That fixes WvWvW. Characters that play dungeons/fractals while leveling through any means other than map completion are still forced into grinding other game modes for their abilities though.

Uhm, sorry, but dungeons and fractals are aspects of PvE. There are 3 game modes. PvE, PvP and WvW and fractals and dungeons only exist in one of those modes, so yes if you want to play in dungeons and fractals then you need to do the things required to level up and skill/trait your toon as you would any other PvE character.

Simply by the virtue that someone can play in PvE and completely avoid doing all but one dungeon and never step foot in fractals means that those are optional extensions of PvE. For WvW you already get a “level bump” to 80 and can use level 80 gear while in WvW. The only thing I’m asking for is for them to also do what they already do for the other game mode where you fight others and give access to the skills and traits only while IN that game mode, while still allowing access to diverse rune/sigil combos and food buffs (unlike PvP). Once back in PvE though they would still need to level and gain skills/traits as normal for any activities that can be done from PvE.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Eponet.4829:

That fixes WvWvW. Characters that play dungeons/fractals while leveling through any means other than map completion are still forced into grinding other game modes for their abilities though.

Uhm, sorry, but dungeons and fractals are aspects of PvE. There are 3 game modes. PvE, PvP and WvW and fractals and dungeons only exist in one of those modes, so yes if you want to play in dungeons and fractals then you need to do the things required to level up and skill/trait your toon as you would any other PvE character.

Simply by the virtue that someone can play in PvE and completely avoid doing all but one dungeon and never step foot in fractals means that those are optional extensions of PvE. For WvW you already get a “level bump” to 80 and can use level 80 gear while in WvW. The only thing I’m asking for is for them to also do what they already do for the other game mode where you fight others and give access to the skills and traits only while IN that game mode, while still allowing access to diverse rune/sigil combos and food buffs (unlike PvP). Once back in PvE though they would still need to level and gain skills/traits as normal for any activities that can be done from PvE.

They are different game modes. The only thing that fractals and skill challenges share is gear, skills, traits and levels. Three and a half of those being in the same situation as WvWvW. The only difference is the upscaling in level, which doesn’t properly compensate for an actual level 80 character.

The modes are different because they have vastly different gameplay styles with differing objectives. Fractals are about as different from skill challenges as WvWvW is. Possibly more so given the open world nature of WvWvW vs the instanced nature of Fractals.

Fractals require you to have specific gear to even play them at higher levels and is 100% an optional addition to PvE. Players (regardless of group composition) playing against different ENVIRONMENTAL enemies. Same with dungeons, and since Anet already mentioned that they are trying to rework Big Z so that is also a soloable instance and not a mandatory dungeon, even dungeons will be another optional aspect of the PvE game mode. because it is optional and not necessary to PvE there is no reason for Anet to allow wholesale access to traits and skills for people playing PvE. In fact it goes counter to them making a PvE game type.

WvW and PvP being very specific maps and tactics against other players means that you would need a complete set of tools when playing those modes. It makes NO sense to even require leveling in those game modes as they are meant to be played differently from PvE.

If WvW was meant to be more like PvE then people wouldn’t even get the up-leveled buff in there, but that isn’t the case. its meant as another form of PvP and should be treated as such to keep players on the same footing with one another to some degree.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Fractals require you to have specific gear to even play them at higher levels and is 100% an optional addition to PvE. Players (regardless of group composition) playing against different ENVIRONMENTAL enemies. Same with dungeons, and since Anet already mentioned that they are trying to rework Big Z so that is also a soloable instance and not a mandatory dungeon, even dungeons will be another optional aspect of the PvE game mode. because it is optional and not necessary to PvE there is no reason for Anet to allow wholesale access to traits and skills for people playing PvE. In fact it goes counter to them making a PvE game type.

WvW and PvP being very specific maps and tactics against other players means that you would need a complete set of tools when playing those modes. It makes NO sense to even require leveling in those game modes as they are meant to be played differently from PvE.

If WvW was meant to be more like PvE then people wouldn’t even get the up-leveled buff in there, but that isn’t the case. its meant as another form of PvP and should be treated as such to keep players on the same footing with one another to some degree.

You haven’t explained why you draw the categories as PvE, PvP and WvWvW, or why you feel that having access to tools isn’t necessary in some game modes, but is in others. If it’s properly balanced to test you and provide challenging content, it’s very likely that you may need to constantly retrait your builds to solve problems in instanced content. Just because things are easy as they are now, it doesn’t mean that they’ll stay that way.

If you think that you approach group instanced content in the same way as open world content, you’re deluding yourself. They’re worlds apart. By the same logic that just because something is a subset of something else, it’s an optional component of it, every type of playstyle is an optional component of Guild Wars 2 because you can choose not to play it.

There’s no reason that WvWvW requires access to their full set of tools any more than challenging instanced content does. SPvP has a case to be made for it as it does everything it can in order to make its matches fair and remain a competitive mode. WvWvW will never be unless they cap the number of players at an amount equal to the lower current WvWvW population of the three worlds in each matchup, kicking the people exceeding that, or come up with a solution to certain servers just having more people online and playing at times than others. (The buff you gain when outnumbered doesn’t help you win despite the numerical disadvantage, it just gets you more loot).

If anything, instanced content requires it more, as the assumption that people have access to their tools would allow the content designers more freedom to create puzzles or bosses that make use of those resources. Attempting to do so without that would just result in people being completely unable to complete things unless they happened to have picked the mechanics that the situation called for.

We saw what happened when they cut the resources available to low leveled players, the zones got nerfed to be even more of a joke than they already were, destroying any potential for interesting mechanics in them, as they had to balance around the assumption that people wouldn’t have access to the tools needed to cope with them.

Fractals do indeed require specific gear at higher levels for the agony resistance. Gear that you get from either open world content (Drops/World Bosses/Event gold to purchase materials, or gather them yourself, karma for the obsidian shards), Dungeons/Fractals (gold that can buy everything but obsidian shards, which you can buy with laurels), WvWvW (Gold + Karma to buy shards, badges of honor make ascended amulets cheaper too), or even SPvP (Regional tracks give crafting materials, gold, and obsidian shards)

At the moment, everything in the game is optional to everything else, as you can earn anything that has a mechanical impact by playing anything. The reason hero points as announced are a problem is that suddenly it’s locking your mechanics and limiting your tools that may be necessary to overcome situations behind a single style of play (That being skill challenges).

Eponet.4829:

There’s no reason that WvWvW requires access to their full set of tools any more than challenging instanced content does.

If they don’t have a great need for all their traits, then they can work for the “extras” like everyone else in PvE.

If they do in order to make WvW more competitive, then it should be treated as PvP (because it is, just on a different scale).

And if we’re being honest with ourselves, most of WvW is walking. Boring, dull walking. Which is no different than the boring walks in between hero challenge locations, except there isn’t a megazergblob with constant Swiftness buffs to cheer one on.

Rauderi.8706:

Eponet.4829:

There’s no reason that WvWvW requires access to their full set of tools any more than challenging instanced content does.

If they don’t have a great need for all their traits, then they can work for the “extras” like everyone else in PvE.

If they do in order to make WvW more competitive, then it should be treated as PvP (because it is, just on a different scale).

And if we’re being honest with ourselves, most of WvW is walking. Boring, dull walking. Which is no different than the boring walks in between hero challenge locations, except there isn’t a megazergblob with constant Swiftness buffs to cheer one on.

I’m quite happy with letting people ‘earn’ their traits. But the problem comes when they have to earn them a specific way. The current system is in theory acceptable, as you can unlock them with gold and skill points which are earned doing pretty much anything in the game that isn’t city based roleplaying and trading post manipulation, neither of which use traits in any way whatsoever.

The only reason they’re an issue right now is the fact that the prices attached to them are obscenely high, and are extremely offputting to many people. Hero points are basically the current system, but without the ability to purchase traits, or pick and choose the specific ones you want while ignoring useless ones. The checklist of a specific task tied to each trait was just replaced by a longer list of specific tasks, of which you can pick 65 of them, but as there are only a few different types of skill challenge, and there’s no way of telling what type of challenge a skill challenge is until you’ve wasted your time walking over there, you can’t just pick the ones that interest you.

i draw the categories as PvP, WvW, and PvE because those are the game modes as stated by the actual game developers.

Only 2 of those are PvP modes where the options are either small team combat or a combination of large/medium/small team and objective play for both offense and defense, but at the end of the day it is still PvP and depending on the role you choose to play in that “war” its still best to have access to the same traits and skills as everyone else. As it stands now, an uplevel is at a big disadvantage in WvW because even though they can put on level 80 gear, the lack of proper movement, cleanse, fall damage, etc traits along with fewer skills make them easier targets, full stop. This actually hurt WvW and your server more than whether everyone is zerging or not. Both WvW and PvP exist “outside” the normal game as their own modes and that is all they are.

PvE has is core game, but it also has a ton of optional things you can do as well WITHIN it such as dungeons and fractals and JPs and world boss events that don’t necessarily require you to be max level, with proper gear and weapons and builds for any of it to either be effective or gain from the events. They are all completely optional and can be wholesale ignored for the most part without detracting from the core PvE game mode that, once again, they reside IN. Those things are usually meant to be played as “end game content” for PvE once you’ve played through what PvE has to offer and might be looking for more to do if that’s your cup of tea, and by then you’d have unlocked the skills and traits you would use in those areas and for fractals in particular, crafted or obtained your ascended armor that you will 100% need to do fractals after a certain level.