Guild Wars 2

After a discussion with a couple of my friends who also play GW2, are we as excited for it as I was, only to feel now that it lacks a certain something, it’s not quite all there.
It has a strong foundation, but there is nothing to really get you to want to log in every day.

And one of the issues I really felt cripples the game is the trait system.
Now how? Well, the short answer is because it is geared to specialize you, or rather pigeon-holes you into one or two things, to the exclusion of everything else.

And subsequently doing that one thing is not only boring, but it takes all the creativity out of the process. At level 80 there is nothing new to learn, nothing to strive for and the trait system actively discourages experimentation. (even though you can change, it’s at a cost, refund points anybody?)

Here was my experience. I’ve fully leveled two characters, 1st an Engineer and 2nd a Mesmer. In both cases I loved the early levels, it felt like I had so many ‘valid’ options to pick from, weather it be weapons or utilities.
The game nether encourages or discourages one play type over another, and so you could switch things up on the fly. One of the best experiences I’ve ever had in an MMO.

But as I leveled, the traits specialized me more and more, where one trait lead me to taking another complementary trait because it was the optimal choice. These were not uncomparables but rather mere calculations. (I will give an example)
By level 80, I had my build, it was a certain weapon set and utilities, and I was stuck with it, if I wanted to have an optimal build, this was the only way of doing it, I had no more options left.

While I have the option to change, it’s at cost, and you wind up in the exact same situation, just with a different build, where you can’t really change your weapon or utilities because your traits only work with ‘certain’ weapons or ‘certain’ utilities types.
(and there is yet a quick way to change on the fly)

It’s mostly a psychological trap, but it’s how the mechanics work.

For example: Illusionary Membrane = Gain protection for 2 seconds when you gain regeneration.
Cool, sounds general and widely applicable enough.
But how do you get regeneration as a Mesmer?

1. Metaphysical Rejuvenation – Already have this trait, proc on low health, always useful.
2. Superior Rune of Dwayna 4, 6 – Can acquire regardless of traits or class, but is restricted to lvl 65+, so you typically won’t get to use this until lvl 80.
3. Phantasmal Healing – Phantasms aoe regen once every 10 sec, slow and impractical in the vast amount of combat you will be doing, either the Phantasms die too quickly, or you enemy does. It’s just an extra, not reliable.
4. Chaos Armor – Regen on hit (random), the only viable option as a Mesmer for consistent regen uptime.
5. External Sources – Can’t exactly build around outside skill usage.

So besides the late game runes, the only real means of getting regen on an regular basis is via Chaos Armor.
So how do I get Chaos Armor?
How to I optimize Chaos Armor uptime?

then

How do I optimize Ethereal fields + finishers?
etc

I’ve already done the calculations so I will save you the pain.
For an optimal Chaos Armor setup to maximize Regen and Protection uptime, you want the Staff, Sword + Focus or Sword.
You also would want to pack at least on Glamor utility, preferably both Feedback and Nullfield.

So now not only have my weapons been set out, but 2 of my 3 utilities.
And so now the traits go even further, now in order to optimize my build further I want to takes traits that improve my weapons, or improve my Glamors, etc etc.

One decision follows the next until by the end of it every skill has been nailed down and there is nothing left to experiment with. That’s the optimal setup for your build, your stuck with it. If you want to change, it’ll cost you.

Why do I need to continue playing once I have finish my character?
When there is nothing new to learn or experiment with?
Why continue on at that point?

While I seriously doubt this was the intent, the way traits and skills are setup, by level 80 it sucks all the fun out of the game.
I’m as hardcore a fanboy as you can get, but it’s just not working for me.

My favorite times with the game are at the early levels, where I do not have to worry about the trait system. And in all honesty, I think the game would be much better off if it had no trait system at all, rather then have it work like this, it’s counter productive.

I’m not sure what can be done to fix it.
Anything that make it feel like I had more valid options, and not less.

At the very least if it didn’t cost you to respec, that would take some of the discouragement out of the equation.

What do you guys think?
Is this a problem for anybody else or is it just me?
And if it is a problem, what do you think can be done to fix it?

from what I read, it sounds like you are pigeon-holing yourself. you took one trait, then looked for synergies. but what are you trying to do with that build? is there another way it could be done, one that doesn’t include the trait?

The problem isn’t that you are forced to take certain traits/utilities due to synergy. The problem is most traits/utilities are simply terrible and useless.

kitanas.3596:

from what I read, it sounds like you are pigeon-holing yourself. you took one trait, then looked for synergies. but what are you trying to do with that build? is there another way it could be done, one that doesn’t include the trait?

Why would there be another way to reach the goal without the trait? Doesn’t that make the entire trait completely pointless?

Where’s the logic!?

Well… You can combine traits in many different ways. You can optimize for certain weapons, utility skill categories, your class mechanic and/or play strategies (i.e. skills tied to things like endurance/dodging).

While many people do sort of “pigeonhole” themselves for whatever reason, you really don’t have to. In fact, most people think a well-rounded and balanced build is desirable. And every class has multiple viable builds, too.

At the very least, you have to agree that it’s certainly a lot more flexible and fun to play with than the old strength/dexterity/agility/intelligence stat point thing most MMOs are based around.

Hellkaiser.6025:

Why would there be another way to reach the goal without the trait? Doesn’t that make the entire trait completely pointless?

Where’s the logic!?

Er… Maybe not the trait effects itself, but the stats, surely. For example, let’s say you wanted a more rounded build. You put into your traitlines related to vitality and toughness and your mechanic (just for example). You have nothing in your attack power. You feel a bit underpowered as a result. You can make up for it by upgrading your armor with ruby orbs/berserker stuff and get a full set of exotic ruby jewellery, also slotted with more rubies.

Yoh.8469:

For example: Illusionary Membrane = Gain protection for 2 seconds when you gain regeneration.

There is your creative playstyle. You just chose to play that style. Traits and utilities allow you to choose this, which is what you did with your example. If you were to say, go for full damage instead of protection/regen, then trait for full power/shatter, etc.

The only thing I agree with you in your post is that traits cost money to change, they should remove this so it’s easier to experiment with new builds. And no sPvP is not an option, I want to test this new build out on various enemies and dungeon bosses to see if it’s viable, then go to town and alter it for free.

Charming Rogue.8071:

Yoh.8469:

For example: Illusionary Membrane = Gain protection for 2 seconds when you gain regeneration.

There is your creative playstyle. You just chose to play that style. Traits and utilities allow you to choose this, which is what you did with your example. If you were to say, go for full damage instead of protection/regen, then trait for full power/shatter, etc.

The only thing I agree with you in your post is that traits cost money to change, they should remove this so it’s easier to experiment with new builds. And no sPvP is not an option, I want to test this new build out on various enemies and dungeon bosses to see if it’s viable, then go to town and alter it for free.

I’m sure you’re aware already, but if you wanted to test the viability of trait builds, you can freely re-trait yourself however you like in Heart of the Mists, pick a free weapon from the vendor, and go down to the testing dummies. The testing dummies are really thorough since they have variants for heavy, medium and light armor. And if you want more of a challenge, go to the sparring area and see how you fare against the class dummies (which have surprisingly good AI, actually).

Hellkaiser.6025:

kitanas.3596:

from what I read, it sounds like you are pigeon-holing yourself. you took one trait, then looked for synergies. but what are you trying to do with that build? is there another way it could be done, one that doesn’t include the trait?

Why would there be another way to reach the goal without the trait? Doesn’t that make the entire trait completely pointless?

Where’s the logic!?

so what I’m saying is that traits are a means to an end. so what is that end, and is there another build that accomplishes it? to use the OP as an example, he appears to be building a survivable mesmer though boons. but could a stealth/clone build work? could a mobility/range build work? (not a mesmer, so I can’t say specifics)

I have the total opposite experience. I can make my Guardian an invincible tank, an aoe farming machine, or a single target destroyer. I can go group support, or solo dps. I find the traits, weapons, and skills very dynamic.

That being said, there are some traits that are useless, and some of the skills could be changed to differentiate them more.

I’m not sure I understand… Your complaint is that certain traits work really well together? I don’t think I want to “fix” that… I mean it’s pretty much how builds work right? You focus on one way of playing and pick the traits that benefit you in that.

Specializing is not the same as pigeonholing. In my mind pigeonholing is when there is only one acceptable build because others are just subpar. As far as I can tell there is still very little pressure to force your profession into one specific build. Maybe it has that luxury because it’s still a relatively new game.

You want to experiment? Reset your trait points and try something completely different.

traits system is ok, it will be revamped from time to time once game population achieve a point in which everything has been discovered/used or simply is no more fit for the time. I find it wayyyy more creative than having an infinite amount of buttons to play in a certain order; traits encourage you to “create a certain scenario” in order to gain certain advantages.
I would welcome even more traits…

What I don’t like about the trait system is that it unlocks abilities or effects that generally don’t fit in my build together. So if I raise a trait line I will encounter things I do use and things I don’t. That makes the trait lines illogical to me.

It’s the same as the weapon sets. If I want certain skills I must choose the weapons that go with it. Even if I don’t like the weapon type from a cosmetic point of view, I must use them. But then when I take the weapons and the 5 left skills are pre determined I always have at least 1 or 2 skills I don’t really want or use.

So this goes for both the trait lines and the weapon skill sets.

Add to that the rigid assignment in the remaining slots (you must take a heal on 6 and a useless elite on 10). Add to that too many skills don’t work underwater and the long cooldowns on many skills and the fact that a number of skills really are built around pvp but are part of the pve skill set…..

Well add it all together and you get a system that just is full of limitations and forced choices and that takes the fun out of it for me. The fact that there are cookie cutter builds is nothing new.

Yes and no. It is quite easy to fall into the groove described, i know as i was in it for the longest time. But during Lost shores final marathon i found that my Dagger necro was unplayable thanks to culling and such. So in the middle of the event i ended up reworking what i had for staff and minions.

In that i learned that you are better off picking How you want to play and pick trait lines that has attributes the provide for that. Only after that do you start picking traits that match whatever weapons and utilities you want to be using.

So if you want to be in melee often you pick toughness and vitality lines, and figure out later what kind of traits in there that mesh with you preferred weapon. Going more ranged afford you more reaction time so you can go into power a bit more and so on.

Maybe the OP and everyone else knows this already but you can reset all your traits for 3.5 silver in queensdale near the shaemoor waypoint. I leave my character there and jump in and out of wvw, some days ill change my traits 3-4 times just experimenting it costs very little….

id like to expand. problem is that traits are connected to armor. basically you are unable to retrait your character unless you are willing to buy another set of armor and trinkets. retraiting isn’t expensive on itself, but with whole sets of armor and trinkets it is very expensive.

another problem is i don’t know if my build is any good. if they put statistics in dungeon runs where people will see who does what kind of dps and all, it will be hell to rebuild from scratch, farming another set of armor from dungeons and buying trinkets from TP.

another thing is also that i need to have bank space for all my characters and all their builds…

all this makes retraiting just too hard atm. prerequisites are too much.

that’s why you can test some builds in pvp. Although I know there are limitations (stuck with one prefix instead of being able to mix and match different sets)

I remember the good old days of BWE1 where traits were not locked into tiers, meaning you could choose a powerful trait from a trait line with only 10 points in it. Now, while this could be very unbalanced, it was also very free and allowed much more creative builds. The mistake of this system was making the madatory traits (minor traits) not the defining feature of each trait line and not powerful enough to justify putting more points into a trait line to obtain.

I think a lot of you guys make some pretty good points, and I do feel I over stated the case a bit much.
It might be more of a issue of having a number of minor issues working in tandem with each other, which can make you feel stuck with the choices you’ve made, or make the cost of switching unnecessarily high.

In GW1 (of which I played for many years) you could basically change attributes and skills at a drop of a hat, and there was the template system that made it super quick and easy.

Where now at max lvl (excluding spvp) you not only have to pay to change traits, the stat system now halfway requires you to get addition sets of armor and trinkets for whatever build you would like to do (in order to be optimal at least, you can get along even with subpar gear), as well as weapons, and there is no way to do it quickly.

In general it’s a major pain in the backside, and there doesn’t seem to be (at least to me) as much payoff, or maybe I am just getting older.

I think for the most part this problem will sort itself out over time as they add more traits and fix the ones that suck, just so that you have more variety in each trait line.
Although I still feel they should drop the trait retraining cost, it does nothing create an unnecessary barrier and adds precisely nothing to the game, like it’s refund points counter part once did. (the game got much better after that point)

That, and add a template system for traits and skills.

It costs like 4 silver to reset your traits at level 80, which is really nothing at that point in the game. I like the current trait system because I can trait one way for PvE and re-trait to something more team oriented for dungeon running.