Guild Wars 2

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

OriOri.8724:

Slashmeehup.1495:

OriOri.8724:

You are deliberately missing the point. People shouldn’t be forced to buy mats off the TP to get what they need in a reasonable time frame.

I actually disagree with this. The trading post should always be the most effective way to get the things you want.

A big draw of this game is “Play your own way”, and the trading post is the backbone of that philosophy. The fact that virtually everything in the game rewards sellable loot, and most things can be bought with coin, means that you can get practically anything you want by doing practically anything you want. Structuring the game around the TP is deliberate, and I would say, necessary.

There is a difference between it being the most effective way and it being the only reasonable way, and you people are stubbornly refusing to accept this. I never said it should be more efficient to farm your own leather. I said that it should be reasonable to do so if you wanted to. And currently it is not.

This is ridiculous how much you guys are defending a broken system right here. If you want to use teh TP that is fine, but it should by no means be the only reasonable way to obtain the mats you need.

Exactly what would you consider reasonable?

For anything except for legendary weapons, things for time gated components need to be earned by a player who plays 3-4 hours daily by farming within ~25% within a period of two days assuming that the player spends 30 minutes not farming. So if it take 100 random item to make special object, I should be able to farm ~75 in two days while taking a beark from farming for 30 minutes each day.

Legendary items should be expected to fall within several months.

Ascended gear is optional and more along the lines of a luxury. There are also various weapons that require lodestones making them take a long time too. In either case, a player can easily get 150 thick leather within 3-4 hours without using the TP.

Where is this magical farm of thick leather because I don’t get anywhere near enough to multiply out to 150 in 3-4 hours?

Any mob that drops the upper tier salvage items.

Yea, I’ve killed those. Still not enough leather to make 150 in 3-4 hours.

It is. You can also convert karma into leather like people have done with cloth. You can farm Bloodstone Fen mobs. Or you can not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game that you feel are illegitimate and get what you need much quicker.

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

OriOri.8724:

Slashmeehup.1495:

OriOri.8724:

You are deliberately missing the point. People shouldn’t be forced to buy mats off the TP to get what they need in a reasonable time frame.

I actually disagree with this. The trading post should always be the most effective way to get the things you want.

A big draw of this game is “Play your own way”, and the trading post is the backbone of that philosophy. The fact that virtually everything in the game rewards sellable loot, and most things can be bought with coin, means that you can get practically anything you want by doing practically anything you want. Structuring the game around the TP is deliberate, and I would say, necessary.

There is a difference between it being the most effective way and it being the only reasonable way, and you people are stubbornly refusing to accept this. I never said it should be more efficient to farm your own leather. I said that it should be reasonable to do so if you wanted to. And currently it is not.

This is ridiculous how much you guys are defending a broken system right here. If you want to use teh TP that is fine, but it should by no means be the only reasonable way to obtain the mats you need.

Exactly what would you consider reasonable?

For anything except for legendary weapons, things for time gated components need to be earned by a player who plays 3-4 hours daily by farming within ~25% within a period of two days assuming that the player spends 30 minutes not farming. So if it take 100 random item to make special object, I should be able to farm ~75 in two days while taking a beark from farming for 30 minutes each day.

Legendary items should be expected to fall within several months.

Ascended gear is optional and more along the lines of a luxury. There are also various weapons that require lodestones making them take a long time too. In either case, a player can easily get 150 thick leather within 3-4 hours without using the TP.

Where is this magical farm of thick leather because I don’t get anywhere near enough to multiply out to 150 in 3-4 hours?

Any mob that drops the upper tier salvage items.

Yea, I’ve killed those. Still not enough leather to make 150 in 3-4 hours.

It is. You can also convert karma into leather like people have done with cloth. You can farm Bloodstone Fen mobs. Or you can not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game that you feel are illegitimate and get what you need much quicker.

And did I ever say I was not using the TP? Just because I argue that it shouldn’t be unreasonable to be able to farm the mats mostly on one’s own, doesn’t mean that I do the same.

And I don’t think it is possible for the average player to farm to be able to expect to be able to consistently farm 150 thick leather sections + all of the other items necessary for time gated materials in 3-4 hours, as I recall there being more than just thick leather in that recipe.

The time gate was established to slow down crafting of ascended gear by the rich and those who happen to be sitting on a ton of mats. It wasn’t established to be the upper time limit to manually acquire the rare materials by hand. Assuming it did is what’s unreasonable.

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

OriOri.8724:

Slashmeehup.1495:

OriOri.8724:

You are deliberately missing the point. People shouldn’t be forced to buy mats off the TP to get what they need in a reasonable time frame.

I actually disagree with this. The trading post should always be the most effective way to get the things you want.

A big draw of this game is “Play your own way”, and the trading post is the backbone of that philosophy. The fact that virtually everything in the game rewards sellable loot, and most things can be bought with coin, means that you can get practically anything you want by doing practically anything you want. Structuring the game around the TP is deliberate, and I would say, necessary.

There is a difference between it being the most effective way and it being the only reasonable way, and you people are stubbornly refusing to accept this. I never said it should be more efficient to farm your own leather. I said that it should be reasonable to do so if you wanted to. And currently it is not.

This is ridiculous how much you guys are defending a broken system right here. If you want to use teh TP that is fine, but it should by no means be the only reasonable way to obtain the mats you need.

Exactly what would you consider reasonable?

For anything except for legendary weapons, things for time gated components need to be earned by a player who plays 3-4 hours daily by farming within ~25% within a period of two days assuming that the player spends 30 minutes not farming. So if it take 100 random item to make special object, I should be able to farm ~75 in two days while taking a beark from farming for 30 minutes each day.

Legendary items should be expected to fall within several months.

Ascended gear is optional and more along the lines of a luxury. There are also various weapons that require lodestones making them take a long time too. In either case, a player can easily get 150 thick leather within 3-4 hours without using the TP.

Where is this magical farm of thick leather because I don’t get anywhere near enough to multiply out to 150 in 3-4 hours?

Any mob that drops the upper tier salvage items.

Yea, I’ve killed those. Still not enough leather to make 150 in 3-4 hours.

It is. You can also convert karma into leather like people have done with cloth. You can farm Bloodstone Fen mobs. Or you can not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game that you feel are illegitimate and get what you need much quicker.

And did I ever say I was not using the TP? Just because I argue that it shouldn’t be unreasonable to be able to farm the mats mostly on one’s own, doesn’t mean that I do the same.

And I don’t think it is possible for the average player to farm to be able to expect to be able to consistently farm 150 thick leather sections + all of the other items necessary for time gated materials in 3-4 hours, as I recall there being more than just thick leather in that recipe.

So first it’s 150 thick leather in 3-4 hours and now it’s that plus the rest in 3-4 hours? Please don’t shift the goalposts. The lower tiered leather doesn’t need to be earned that very same day although it can be for about 60K karma. If the average player uses all of the options available to them, they can craft one of each of the tradeable T7 mats per day. The problem is that there are players that for whatever reason despise one or many of the options and are then upset when they find what’s left after limiting themselves.

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

OriOri.8724:

Slashmeehup.1495:

OriOri.8724:

You are deliberately missing the point. People shouldn’t be forced to buy mats off the TP to get what they need in a reasonable time frame.

I actually disagree with this. The trading post should always be the most effective way to get the things you want.

A big draw of this game is “Play your own way”, and the trading post is the backbone of that philosophy. The fact that virtually everything in the game rewards sellable loot, and most things can be bought with coin, means that you can get practically anything you want by doing practically anything you want. Structuring the game around the TP is deliberate, and I would say, necessary.

There is a difference between it being the most effective way and it being the only reasonable way, and you people are stubbornly refusing to accept this. I never said it should be more efficient to farm your own leather. I said that it should be reasonable to do so if you wanted to. And currently it is not.

This is ridiculous how much you guys are defending a broken system right here. If you want to use teh TP that is fine, but it should by no means be the only reasonable way to obtain the mats you need.

Exactly what would you consider reasonable?

For anything except for legendary weapons, things for time gated components need to be earned by a player who plays 3-4 hours daily by farming within ~25% within a period of two days assuming that the player spends 30 minutes not farming. So if it take 100 random item to make special object, I should be able to farm ~75 in two days while taking a beark from farming for 30 minutes each day.

Legendary items should be expected to fall within several months.

Ascended gear is optional and more along the lines of a luxury. There are also various weapons that require lodestones making them take a long time too. In either case, a player can easily get 150 thick leather within 3-4 hours without using the TP.

Where is this magical farm of thick leather because I don’t get anywhere near enough to multiply out to 150 in 3-4 hours?

Any mob that drops the upper tier salvage items.

Yea, I’ve killed those. Still not enough leather to make 150 in 3-4 hours.

It is. You can also convert karma into leather like people have done with cloth. You can farm Bloodstone Fen mobs. Or you can not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game that you feel are illegitimate and get what you need much quicker.

And did I ever say I was not using the TP? Just because I argue that it shouldn’t be unreasonable to be able to farm the mats mostly on one’s own, doesn’t mean that I do the same.

And I don’t think it is possible for the average player to farm to be able to expect to be able to consistently farm 150 thick leather sections + all of the other items necessary for time gated materials in 3-4 hours, as I recall there being more than just thick leather in that recipe.

So first it’s 150 thick leather in 3-4 hours and now it’s that plus the rest in 3-4 hours? Please don’t shift the goalposts. The lower tiered leather doesn’t need to be earned that very same day although it can be for about 60K karma. If the average player uses all of the options available to them, they can craft one of each of the tradeable T7 mats per day. The problem is that there are players that for whatever reason despise one or many of the options and are then upset when they find what’s left after limiting themselves.

My original question was can a player farm all of the items needed to make the time gated materials in a reasonable time frame. You’re the one who specifically latched on to thick leather. And since I’ve seen you in other posts give evidence that you actually read people’s posts, I assumed you realized that and had chosen one of the components out for example. So no, I did not shift the goal post. You just forgot where it was initially.

Seera.5916:

My original question was can a player farm all of the items needed to make the time gated materials in a reasonable time frame. You’re the one who specifically latched on to thick leather. And since I’ve seen you in other posts give evidence that you actually read people’s posts, I assumed you realized that and had chosen one of the components out for example. So no, I did not shift the goal post. You just forgot where it was initially.

You’re right that you initially stated all time-gated mats and then challenged me when I stated that thick leather could be earned in 3-4 hours. I latched onto thick leather because that’s what an earlier discussion on that page was about. My mistake for lumping you in with that.

Fortunately practically any high yielding gold farm (e.g. AB and Lab for the time being) can accomplish this in about a couple hours. Farming karma in Ember Bay to use to convert into leather can also be done in four hours and probably much less depending on RNG with the salvages. Not that I would recommend it as you can convert one of the lower tiers that’s more efficient, sell on the TP, and then use the proceeds to purchase the mats with extra gold to spare.

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

My original question was can a player farm all of the items needed to make the time gated materials in a reasonable time frame. You’re the one who specifically latched on to thick leather. And since I’ve seen you in other posts give evidence that you actually read people’s posts, I assumed you realized that and had chosen one of the components out for example. So no, I did not shift the goal post. You just forgot where it was initially.

You’re right that you initially stated all time-gated mats and then challenged me when I stated that thick leather could be earned in 3-4 hours. I latched onto thick leather because that’s what an earlier discussion on that page was about. My mistake for lumping you in with that.

Fortunately practically any high yielding gold farm (e.g. AB and Lab for the time being) can accomplish this in about a couple hours. Farming karma in Ember Bay to use to convert into leather can also be done in four hours and probably much less depending on RNG with the salvages. Not that I would recommend it as you can convert one of the lower tiers that’s more efficient, sell on the TP, and then use the proceeds to purchase the mats with extra gold to spare.

But you can’t reasonably farm all of the mats directly, especially if you don’t tend to play medium armor characters. That’s the problem. More options for players is all I’m asking for. Even just adjusting recipes would help so as to not effect too many other markets, especially now that leather isn’t sitting at vendor prices with way too much supply on the TP at the minimum possible price.

Seera.5916:

Ayrilana.1396:

Seera.5916:

My original question was can a player farm all of the items needed to make the time gated materials in a reasonable time frame. You’re the one who specifically latched on to thick leather. And since I’ve seen you in other posts give evidence that you actually read people’s posts, I assumed you realized that and had chosen one of the components out for example. So no, I did not shift the goal post. You just forgot where it was initially.

You’re right that you initially stated all time-gated mats and then challenged me when I stated that thick leather could be earned in 3-4 hours. I latched onto thick leather because that’s what an earlier discussion on that page was about. My mistake for lumping you in with that.

Fortunately practically any high yielding gold farm (e.g. AB and Lab for the time being) can accomplish this in about a couple hours. Farming karma in Ember Bay to use to convert into leather can also be done in four hours and probably much less depending on RNG with the salvages. Not that I would recommend it as you can convert one of the lower tiers that’s more efficient, sell on the TP, and then use the proceeds to purchase the mats with extra gold to spare.

But you can’t reasonably farm all of the mats directly, especially if you don’t tend to play medium armor characters. That’s the problem. More options for players is all I’m asking for. Even just adjusting recipes would help so as to not effect too many other markets, especially now that leather isn’t sitting at vendor prices with way too much supply on the TP at the minimum possible price.

What more options do players need? They can convert karma to leather. They can farm mobs for salvageable items. They can buy leather off the TP. They can do HoT events and loot chests. I just did AB and after getting my five chests, I had 36 thick leather. They can farm Bloodstone Fen which has salvageable items that give all tiers. They can do their daily fractals for a chance at T7 drops or even ascended. There are plenty options already for players.

idk, i seem to get quite a lot of leather salvaging from pvp reward tracks, stacks of it…

I have to say, this smacks of, “The invisible hand isn’t working. We’re going to call it’s bluff.”

Ayrilana.1396:

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

Only need 150 thick leather skins per day. You farm it the same way players used to farm T6 mats at launch.

There is a reason why Anet made t6 mats more easily obtainable since then.

Well players needed 250 of each which takes a lot of time as T6 is rarer to get than T5 and players needed a stack of each of the 8 fine mats. However, this is much different than T5 leather which is more common to get.

250 of each and you get a piece of a legendary
5000 of t5 leather and you get a piece (coz you need three other types of leather after that) of a piece ( then you need damask too) of one piece of ASCENDED armor (most people want six, but i guess you know that)

Seems legit.

Totally will take less time to farm and seems totally fair you’re right. Carry on. What was she thinking.

edit you guys are wrong btw…since they updated the recipe you need 200 thick leather sections to make a thick elonian cord now.

Maybe John is banking on the hoarders running out of storage space?

Anka.5086:

Ubi.4136:

DoctorDing.5890:

I think he said he’s off on an extended holiday but I’m not very good at interpreting this stuff…

I read that the same way. “I have 6 weeks of vacation time and will lose it if I don’t take it, so I’m gonna let the market do what it wants while I’m gone.”

At least, this is what his post sounds like to me, cause no one can say that T6 leather is fine.

Always working as intended. Nothing to see here. Please, move on. Hysterical! I bet he hasn’t crafted single item that requires mystic coins or T6 Leather. I don’t even think he plays this game more than 1-2hrs a month. He probably logs in to gw2 when Mo is about to walk into his office to talk about t6 leather and mystic coins. He’s like, look i’ve been playing all day i got this much mystic coin and t6 leather. Things are fine, players are just over reacting. But what Mo doesn’t know is our successful economist mr.smith bought all that 50 stacks of mystic and t6 leather 3 years ago when they were all at trash value. And he’s been hoarding them in his private personal guild bank for this day. DUN DUN DUUUUN!!! WP, Mr. 100% John Smith.

Well. Play the right content with sufficient dedication and affording any number of mystic coins is a piece of cake. If you dont want to do the work you dont want the results of that work. I think that is the logic Ive seen used for other aspects of the game.

OriOri.8724:

We shouldn’t have to buy it off the TP, yet we do

(a) why not? some stuff (for legendaries) can only be purchased from karma or map currency vendors. How is buying from the TP different?

(b) I buy leather off the TP when I’m impatient. I certainly don’t feel I have to; I just don’t always want to wait for it to accumulate from my own sources.

I’m not against a change to the sinks or sources for leather. All people really need to do is say that (for them) the game is more fun when the sinks for basic items aren’t so onerous and that defined sources are available.

You dont have to buy anything off the TP.
Everything on the TP is being sold by other players, which means they obtained it by playing the game , so you can do it too.
The only benefit from buying stuff off the TP is that you get it faster, so the saving in time has to be paid for by paying more gold.
To quote and old saying from the goblins in WOW , “Time is money”, and thats absolutely true in MMOs.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I’m not against a change to the sinks or sources for leather. All people really need to do is say that (for them) the game is more fun when the sinks for basic items aren’t so onerous and that defined sources are available.

People have been saying this about the sources of cloth and leather since the beginning of the game.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

OriOri.8724:

We shouldn’t have to buy it off the TP, yet we do

(a) why not? some stuff (for legendaries) can only be purchased from karma or map currency vendors. How is buying from the TP different?

(b) I buy leather off the TP when I’m impatient. I certainly don’t feel I have to; I just don’t always want to wait for it to accumulate from my own sources.

I’m not against a change to the sinks or sources for leather. All people really need to do is say that (for them) the game is more fun when the sinks for basic items aren’t so onerous and that defined sources are available.

I guess its more ideological to me rather than any economic reasons. I don’t believe that in a game so heavily focused on cosmetics that you should be forced to buy what you need to craft cosmetics from other players. Should it be faster/cheaper/more efficient to buy the mats from other players? Sure! Absolutely it should. But at the same time I just don’t agree with a situation where you feel forced to buy it from them in order to gain the mats in a reasonable amount of time

And I am saying that, as are others. Ideology aside, I would be fine with leather if the other mats were the same way. My biggest problem with it is that this didn’t use to be a problem till ANet “fixed” the situation by changing too many things at once and now leather turned into the mat that you need the most of, while also having the lowest supply by far, and being 1 of 2 mats that you can’t directly farm easily. You can go to wood/ore nodes for days and farm thousands of wood/ore to your hearts content. Cloth and leather come mainly from salvaging, at lower rates than the mats that actually have nodes (which is ridiculous), and are needed in higher quantities for refinement.

Astralporing.1957:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I’m not against a change to the sinks or sources for leather. All people really need to do is say that (for them) the game is more fun when the sinks for basic items aren’t so onerous and that defined sources are available.

People have been saying this about the sources of cloth and leather since the beginning of the game.

Some have. I’m not one of them, because I already feel that I have sufficient control over my resources.

Some, including yourself, have been saying that there’s an economic reason to make the change. Since that’s demonstrably untrue, it distracts from the the idea that some people want lower prices (for whatever reason) and that some people want to have the option of farming all materials they need for everything they might want to craft or forge.

OriOri.8724:

We shouldn’t have to buy it off the TP, yet we do

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

(a) why not? some stuff (for legendaries) can only be purchased from karma or map currency vendors. How is buying from the TP different?

(b) I buy leather off the TP when I’m impatient. I certainly don’t feel I have to; I just don’t always want to wait for it to accumulate from my own sources.

I’m not against a change to the sinks or sources for leather. All people really need to do is say that (for them) the game is more fun when the sinks for basic items aren’t so onerous and that defined sources are available.

OriOri.8724:

I guess its more ideological to me rather than any economic reasons.

I’m glad you (finally) wrote that — that’s an entirely fair way to look at any game: does it feel satisfying to play, to ‘earn’, to collect, to gather, etc. And there’s pretty much no argument about it; it’s a personal preference.

With the Traditional Trinity, I think that preference is more about what people are used to, rather than something fundamental. But “satisfaction” is inherently personal; there’s no way that anyone can tell anyone else what is or isn’t fun; at best, you can ask people to look at things from someone else’s point of view.

OriOri.8724:

I don’t believe that in a game so heavily focused on cosmetics that you should be forced to buy what you need to craft cosmetics from other players. Should it be faster/cheaper/more efficient to buy the mats from other players? Sure! Absolutely it should. But at the same time I just don’t agree with a situation where you feel forced to buy it from them in order to gain the mats in a reasonable amount of time

I can see that. I don’t happen to “feel forced”, but I can see that you might feel that there’s a reasonable limit to how patient one should be ask to be and that, perhaps, it’s exceeded in the case of leather and m-coins.

OriOri.8724:

And I am saying that, as are others. Ideology aside, I would be fine with leather if the other mats were the same way. My biggest problem with it is that this didn’t use to be a problem till ANet “fixed” the situation by changing too many things at once and now leather turned into the mat that you need the most of, while also having the lowest supply by far, and being 1 of 2 mats that you can’t directly farm easily.

You forget the part about how people demanded that ANet fix the situation, including suggestions of raising the sinks higher than that for anything else.

Mind you: I agree that they should have changed one thing at a time: refinement for thick leather from 2 to 3 and then maybe 3 to 4, both at a different time from introducing Damask & Jeweled patches (among others), and all of those separately from introducing new weapons & armor that also required high amounts.

OriOri.8724:

You can go to wood/ore nodes for days and farm thousands of wood/ore to your hearts content. Cloth and leather come mainly from salvaging, at lower rates than the mats that actually have nodes (which is ridiculous), and are needed in higher quantities for refinement.

I like the idea that cloth and leather have a completely different supply chain from metal and wood; it makes the game more interesting. However, I’m not sure why ANet couldn’t drop a greater supply of salvageable leather and cloth items. Unstable Rag was a great addition to the new zones; I’d like to see more of it.

Short version:
Yes, there is an ideological argument about how easy it is to acquire mats. Regardless of the details, I think folks will get much more traction appealing to ANet on that dimension rather than trying to claim an economic issue. Put another way, regardless of how well the markets function, the primary value of the game to people is to have fun; crafting ascended and forging legendaries should therefore be fun, even if it’s labor-intensive and time-consuming.

Do economies or aggregate prices “fix” themselves or do they assume a shape approaching an equilibrium of conditions and forces? Can a marketplace that depends on a studio as market creator/maker assume original form (the GW2 economy can not exist before before the studio calculates its trajectory)? I feel compelled to say that I am not offering this description as a negative criticism but just as a system reality.

When John Smith describes listening and watching for emergent properties, he can not be listening and watching for unique production shapes because the Tyrian marketplace can not produce them. I think John Smith is very clear that he is watching the process of the marketplace adhering to a new player workload/playload trajectory.

Imo (I am not an trained economist) this trajectory uses Mystic coins:
1) as a way to control long term production output of Legendary gear and other “luxury goods”
2) as a long-term player life-style index indicator/benchmark similar to ectos, but with a much smaller production footprint
3) this may be a stretch but I see similarities between the Mystic Coins and real world gold. Again this is just my opinion and I am not completely sold on the need for a standard workload “candle” , but I think the Mystic Coin is the most apropos.

I think the only reasonable expectation we as players can have for, and ask of, the game, is that all materials in each tier have similar drop rates with similar methods of acquisition, without any bias related to material type.

If I go to queensdale and mine all nodes of ore, log all trees, harvest all plants, and brutally slaughter all wildlife, I should leave with similar stacks of each of that tier’s materials (in proportion to one another, not identical) as if I went to frostgorge sound and followed a similar routine. The same should go for all items dropped, then salvaged and turned into materials of that zone’s tier.

The problem as our current gamestate displays, is that leathers aren’t as easily obtainable as practically any other regular crafting material. It’s tedious, but very simple to gather from plants, trees, and ore deposits. Even if there’s a little effort behind the kills, why aren’t animals a reliable source of leathers? Like, the drop frequency of leathers on animals should be enough that the most common reply to questions like “where can I get leather?” should be “farm yellow-named mobs or enemies with a pelt.”

Not all items in the tiers are the same when it comes to supply because not all items in the same tier have the same demand.

Supply is only one side of the equation. Without equal demand for each type, the price will be all over the place.

The notion that everybody should be able to get all their mats in a reasonable amount of time simply by farming zones eliminates the entire notion of an economy because everything will be in excess and prices will be so low you will eliminate the need for a TP. You will be selling everything for a few copper and silver because we will all be drowning in it.

In the context of a game economy, the supply and demand equilibrium calculation may be a first order effect, but it is weakly organizing as gravity. The inception event is capturing player value. Tyrians are willing to work at being Tyrian and somehow a lot of the work required to maintain Tryianship feels like fun. Some Tyrians are willing to work very hard, some are able to work very well, one are like me. What can be described as broad irregularities in supply elasticity can also be described as the Tyrian economic landscape, with mountains for the hardest working Tyrians to climb. Can that be wrong for a game world?

I guess my major gripe is that if I want to gear up a leather wearing toon, it is much more expensive than similarly gearing up a heavy armor toon. It seems to me that there shouldn’t be a supply hurdle in such a basic function of the game. It kind of shuts down that whole ‘play how you want’ theme they try to promote. If it was just as expensive/time intensive to get the same building blocks for a metal suit of armor, I wouldn’t feel that it’s so imbalanced.

I just went through this when deciding which toon to focus on next. My first thought was druid, then I looked at my leather stores and went with mesmer instead because it was less of a hassle.

Shaaba.5672:

I guess my major gripe is that if I want to gear up a leather wearing toon, it is much more expensive than similarly gearing up a heavy armor toon. It seems to me that there shouldn’t be a supply hurdle in such a basic function of the game. It kind of shuts down that whole ‘play how you want’ theme they try to promote. If it was just as expensive/time intensive to get the same building blocks for a metal suit of armor, I wouldn’t feel that it’s so imbalanced.

I just went through this when deciding which toon to focus on next. My first thought was druid, then I looked at my leather stores and went with mesmer instead because it was less of a hassle.

I think this type of “of a production category type” irregularity shows the history of keeping a game economy active and competitive enough to maintain the demand for multiple currencies. The studio did not know it needed log in rewards at inception, and log in rewards are valuable measures of player value. In a counterfactual world where and when GW2 released with login rewards, the studio could have pursued a very different armor recipe methodology.

Isn’t this a discussion about a studio’s role as market Creator/maker, maintaining the production of rarity among willingly competitive players?

edit: Isn’t this a discussion about a studio’s role as market Creator/maker, maintaining the production of achievement and rarity among willingly competitive players?

Psientist.6437:

edit: Isn’t this a discussion about a studio’s role as market Creator/maker, maintaining the production of achievement and rarity among willingly competitive players?

…what “willingly competitive players”? I definitely thought that i was playing PvE, not PvP and thought the mode i play in was cooperative, not competitive.

Astralporing.1957:

Psientist.6437:

edit: Isn’t this a discussion about a studio’s role as market Creator/maker, maintaining the production of achievement and rarity among willingly competitive players?

…what “willingly competitive players”? I definitely thought that i was playing PvE, not PvP and thought the mode i play in was cooperative, not competitive.

You can choose to try to avoid most of the competition in PvE, but it is there.

Slashmeehup.1495:

Substance E.4852:

Behellagh.1468:

Can’t believe someone can’t acquire 200 thick sections a day. Oh that’s right, lets not spend any coin to get what you need.

People like getting direct rewards for actions performed in game. It’s much more satisfying to slay a monster for what you need than to RP a lumberjack and trade logs for it instead.

This isn’t a hard concept to understand.

You do get loot for killing things, though. Events, Bosses, Fractals, dungeons, and all kinds of heroic stuff gives you loot to sell. In fact, just about any activity in this game does.

This game is hands down the cheapest, loot-stingiest, least imaginative (in terms of types and sorts of loots and their powers) of any game I have ever played.

It is clearly designed to maximize profit, minimize hands-on balancing and programming, etc. Customer satisfaction, and “fun” aren’t even on the radar beyond lip service.

Spook.5847:

Slashmeehup.1495:

Substance E.4852:

Behellagh.1468:

Can’t believe someone can’t acquire 200 thick sections a day. Oh that’s right, lets not spend any coin to get what you need.

People like getting direct rewards for actions performed in game. It’s much more satisfying to slay a monster for what you need than to RP a lumberjack and trade logs for it instead.

This isn’t a hard concept to understand.

You do get loot for killing things, though. Events, Bosses, Fractals, dungeons, and all kinds of heroic stuff gives you loot to sell. In fact, just about any activity in this game does.

This game is hands down the cheapest, loot-stingiest, least imaginative (in terms of types and sorts of loots and their powers) of any game I have ever played.

It is clearly designed to maximize profit, minimize hands-on balancing and programming, etc. Customer satisfaction, and “fun” aren’t even on the radar beyond lip service.

i dont think were playing the same game.

Spook.5847:

Slashmeehup.1495:

Substance E.4852:

Behellagh.1468:

Can’t believe someone can’t acquire 200 thick sections a day. Oh that’s right, lets not spend any coin to get what you need.

People like getting direct rewards for actions performed in game. It’s much more satisfying to slay a monster for what you need than to RP a lumberjack and trade logs for it instead.

This isn’t a hard concept to understand.

You do get loot for killing things, though. Events, Bosses, Fractals, dungeons, and all kinds of heroic stuff gives you loot to sell. In fact, just about any activity in this game does.

This game is hands down the cheapest, loot-stingiest, least imaginative (in terms of types and sorts of loots and their powers) of any game I have ever played.

It is clearly designed to maximize profit, minimize hands-on balancing and programming, etc. Customer satisfaction, and “fun” aren’t even on the radar beyond lip service.

I’ve only played a handful of MMOs but by far the loot system in GW2 is the best I’ve ever seen.

Astralporing.1957:

Psientist.6437:

edit: Isn’t this a discussion about a studio’s role as market Creator/maker, maintaining the production of achievement and rarity among willingly competitive players?

…what “willingly competitive players”? I definitely thought that i was playing PvE, not PvP and thought the mode i play in was cooperative, not competitive.

“V” stands for versus. That may sound just pedantic, but the BLTP is a competitive arena and rarity can not exist without competition. If you only play to reach a rare goal, then you are competing against RNG and if you pay to reach that goal, you are competing against every other player that can also work to save wealth.

PvE stands for player versus environment. This notion that you should be competing against other players in PvE not only goes against the name of the game mode itself, it also goes against some core concepts of GW2 (as noted by things like the loot system where everyone gets loot instead of having to fight other players for a chance at it)

Astralporing.1957:

Psientist.6437:

edit: Isn’t this a discussion about a studio’s role as market Creator/maker, maintaining the production of achievement and rarity among willingly competitive players?

…what “willingly competitive players”? I definitely thought that i was playing PvE, not PvP and thought the mode i play in was cooperative, not competitive.

I apologize if my first response reads as dismissive and I wouldn’t be apologizing if I didn’t think if may be. I was going to edit “among willingly participatory and competitive players” but it looked awful, as though it would collapse under the weight of redundancy. You raise a valid point beyond the distinction between PVE and PvP, monetizing rarity describes an aesthetic even an ethic. Maintaining rarity means maintaining the ratio of haves to have-nots and maintaining the rate of haves-nots to have. Maintaining includes delivering what players want and enough players want rarity enough to work much harder than the average player.

OriOri.8724:

PvE stands for player versus environment. This notion that you should be competing against other players in PvE not only goes against the name of the game mode itself, it also goes against some core concepts of GW2 (as noted by things like the loot system where everyone gets loot instead of having to fight other players for a chance at it)

In Tyrian PvE, everyone gets loot [and/or] fights other players for a chance at it. That fight occurs as a kill credit calculation or as currency application (earning potential/capital). Those things should not change.

Shaaba.5672:

I guess my major gripe is that if I want to gear up a leather wearing toon, it is much more expensive than similarly gearing up a heavy armor toon. It seems to me that there shouldn’t be a supply hurdle in such a basic function of the game. It kind of shuts down that whole ‘play how you want’ theme they try to promote. If it was just as expensive/time intensive to get the same building blocks for a metal suit of armor, I wouldn’t feel that it’s so imbalanced.

I just went through this when deciding which toon to focus on next. My first thought was druid, then I looked at my leather stores and went with mesmer instead because it was less of a hassle.

And before the change to inscription recipes to include leather, light armor was more expensive than both medium and heavy and only light classes were complaining. So they “fixed” that. But since the mats for heavy can be widely farmed, unlike leather and cloth, it will always be the cheapest.

Psientist.6437:

OriOri.8724:

PvE stands for player versus environment. This notion that you should be competing against other players in PvE not only goes against the name of the game mode itself, it also goes against some core concepts of GW2 (as noted by things like the loot system where everyone gets loot instead of having to fight other players for a chance at it)

In Tyrian PvE, everyone gets loot [and/or] fights other players for a chance at it. That fight occurs as a kill credit calculation or as currency application (earning potential/capital). Those things should not change.

Theres no competing versus other players in PvE though.

OriOri.8724:

Psientist.6437:

OriOri.8724:

PvE stands for player versus environment. This notion that you should be competing against other players in PvE not only goes against the name of the game mode itself, it also goes against some core concepts of GW2 (as noted by things like the loot system where everyone gets loot instead of having to fight other players for a chance at it)

In Tyrian PvE, everyone gets loot [and/or] fights other players for a chance at it. That fight occurs as a kill credit calculation or as currency application (earning potential/capital). Those things should not change.

Theres no competing versus other players in PvE though.

Not directly.

But you have to do so much damage to get credit for an event. If other players kill everything before you reach the damage required, then you don’t get credit. Really only has an impact in low level zones with the daily event being there or in cases where players join towards the end of an event or when players try to do more support than damage.

If there is an item that can’t be earned anymore only has 3 left on the TP and 5 players who want it, then 2 of them will not earn gold fast enough to buy it. It becomes a race with only 3 winners.

Behellagh.1468:

And before the change to inscription recipes to include leather, light armor was more expensive than both medium and heavy and only light classes were complaining. So they “fixed” that. But since the mats for heavy can be widely farmed, unlike leather and cloth, it will always be the cheapest.

“Fixed” is right. I get that heavy armor is always going to be easiest because of ore nodes. With weapons and armor both needing ore, that’s a given. I do think that leather and cloth should be equally available, and right now it’s not according to my experience and bank tab. And I think both should be reasonably (not easily) farmable in a different way than ore and wood are.

The unstable, salvageable items in the new maps are a good start. A nice, small change that can slowly leak more supply into the game. I’m salty right now because Anet took a heavy hand in balancing leather/cloth earlier and now it’s completely out of whack. It’s a self-made problem that they are backing off of for now and we are suffering the consequences. It doesn’t mean that Smith isn’t doing the right thing – I have no idea from a theory perspective. All I can say is that it feels bad to me, as a player, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

OriOri.8724:

Psientist.6437:

OriOri.8724:

PvE stands for player versus environment. This notion that you should be competing against other players in PvE not only goes against the name of the game mode itself, it also goes against some core concepts of GW2 (as noted by things like the loot system where everyone gets loot instead of having to fight other players for a chance at it)

In Tyrian PvE, everyone gets loot [and/or] fights other players for a chance at it. That fight occurs as a kill credit calculation or as currency application (earning potential/capital). Those things should not change.

Theres no competing versus other players in PvE though.

Hey. Rather than parse Tyrian PvE, let’s assume a PvE game that maintains no competition for rewards during gameplay. If that game provides its players a currency field (a reference frame and field for abstracting the work of earning rewards) and a place to trade their rewards, the resulting marketplace will be intrinsically competitive. More significantly, the resulting marketplace will be a new place; a new PvX. PvE can not make a special claim to how PvOpenmarket operates.

edit: by “special claim” I mean a greater voice in how PvO operates than PvP or WvW. Even if PVE’s voice volume accounted for 99.99% of PvO activity, PvE could not achieve enough volume to change an intrinsic trait of PvO.

Hope T6 leather will be fixed soon and mystic coins at that, those prices are ridiculous.
A simple MF recipe converting T6 cloth/ore/wood to T6 leather would restore the price difference but oh lord of mystic toilets forbid we have some practical solutions to man made artificial shortages.

Doing nothing is all very well, but John Smith’s inaction means;

• prohibitively expensive upgrades in WvW
• the work of developers is reduntant because people don’t use (camp) upgrades

The fact that this isn’t being addressed is seen by WvW players as apathy on the part of the developers and thus Arenanet’s reputation is further damaged.

Frankly, I’m not surprised that Arenanet have developed vast swathes of wasted content: their philosophy of emphasising play-it-once story content is mind-boggling!

Yasi.9065:

So let me sum this up:

Anet leaves the market to those handful players heavily influencing the market. And call this then a “healthy economy”.

But I guess, its an american thing, that kind of logic. After all, americans still believe in trickle-down-theory also.

Here’s an easy fix to inflated prices, Mr Smith:
Limit the amount of possible buy orders per item per account to 1k.

I am just here to post that trickle down economy has been tested.

Sales and property taxes has been increase to compensate. I find the results quite interesting.

Svarty.8019:

Frankly, I’m not surprised that Arenanet have developed vast swathes of wasted content: their philosophy of emphasising play-it-once story content is mind-boggling!

This I can whole heartedly agree with. In GW1 the big thing was repeatable content, especially the personal story. Initially you did these by joining up with pick up groups, then guild members. Later you could do them with NPCs and hero NPCs, eventually resulting in them being included in the daily achievements.

Living story has repeatable instances, but where are the rewards for doing them repeatedly? Once you have done them and the associated achievements they become worthless. Therefore nobody repeats them.

Arena Net needs to think more about long term appeal to keep people doing these.

Yasi.9065:

So let me sum this up:

Anet leaves the market to those handful players heavily influencing the market. And call this then a “healthy economy”.

But I guess, its an american thing, that kind of logic. After all, americans still believe in trickle-down-theory also.

Here’s an easy fix to inflated prices, Mr Smith:
Limit the amount of possible buy orders per item per account to 1k.

Except that statement isn’t true … ‘a handful’ of players are not influencing the market .. EVERY player that sells or buys is influencing the market all the time. That’s not ‘just’ an American idea. It’s how any free market works. Even players that just hold materials and don’t sell or buy influence the market to a lesser extent because part of the flow of mats and gold can be potentially added at any time to affect prices. It’s way more complex than you seem to understand.

Yep b/c there’s nvr been a case in free markets where a handful of players control markets. lol…..

That said…..I do not understand the approach to markets stability in this game from it’s conception. At one point everything was taken with a heavy handed approach. Now we have a hands off approach. Why not try small incremental changes?

Essence Snow.3194:

Yep b/c there’s nvr been a case in free markets where a handful of players control markets. lol…..

That said…..I do not understand the approach to markets stability in this game from it’s conception. At one point everything was taken with a heavy handed approach. Now we have a hands off approach. Why not try small incremental changes?

The problem is that several of the markets that have bubbles have a problem of speculators hoarding them. They overshoot the mark on the incremental change and the price of them drop drastically which could cascade into other markets depending on what the material is.

They’re not doing anything most likely to see if they can’t reduce the number of bubbles that could possibly burst or reduce the effects that happen when those bubbles do crash. And with the LS3 episodes coming out now, they will be affecting markets as new craftables and new items get added to the game. But it won’t be specifically to affect the market of one specific item.

Essence Snow.3194:

Yep b/c there’s nvr been a case in free markets where a handful of players control markets. lol…..

That said…..I do not understand the approach to markets stability in this game from it’s conception. At one point everything was taken with a heavy handed approach. Now we have a hands off approach. Why not try small incremental changes?

There has … but that doesn’t make what he said any more true … there are a handful of player manipulating the TP? That’s a ridiculous statement. Even if it was true, he’s still wrong because the non-action Anet is taking will fix that problem.

No one’s flipping mystic coins, even when there was a 11s difference between buy/sell it was a loss. And that was about the largest gap there’s been for 3 months except for 2 or 3 days. No one’s flipping coins. Someone might be buying coins using them realizing the don’t need that many after making clovers or something then relisting leftovers but they’re still losing money.

250 Cured Hardened Leather Squares needed for Nightfury. I have most now, but it’s cost me a whole lot of gold to buy what I’ve gotten so far (over 200g spent, and still need more leather).

kitten things are close to 1 gold each now.

250 Mystic Coins also needed for Nightfury, and I barely have any (19 at this time). But the devs have already stated they’re happy with where those are at right now, even though people have been complaining about the lack of sources for them.

With their current “hands-off” approach to the economy, things are getting worse and will continue to get worse. How long will they let this continue? Is their hope that people who are “hoarding” lots of materials will finally dump their supply on the trading post? Because it seems like the supply on various things are going down, and prices up, without much new supply being traded.

I really hope ArenaNet has a plan to balance things out or something. I’ll just do what I can for now.