Guild Wars 2

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The Greyhawk.9107:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I like the new aura animations. Much less obtrusive and classy looking.

There’s something wrong with you. How are almost invisible eggs “classy”? Since when were auras ever intrusive?

Since a already cluttered group of ppl fighting turned into a x-mass tree of orange orbs fighting. Try joining a fight at mid point in pvp. Even with auras nerfed it’s already a clusterkitten in terms of readability. And don’t even get me started on what happens when mesmers and minion master necros join the party..

Most PvPers I know complain about the new aura animations due to readability (i.e. lack thereof). Not being able to tell apart auras or even see them in the first place is a major problem and can cause more harm than the “clutter” they produce.

There are so many skill effects that cause clutter – the fact that skill impacts scale with the target they hit is the main problem though. You simply can’t read skill animations behind huge flames covering the attacker. Nerfing the animations of skills that are actually important to read won’t change that – it will just make readability worse than it already is. I just hope that ANet won’t nerf every single skill animation before they find that out. But if they do, I at least hope they’ll add an option to the graphics settings. That’s something that should have been done right from the start anyway.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I like the new aura animations. Much less obtrusive and classy looking.

Since when have awkward transparent eggs been classy? The old ones had style and looked powerful. Like all the visual nerfs, these look pathetic.

This doesn’t belong on page 2.

Colin says “The reality about FX visibility is it’s consistent feedback we’ve had on every part of Gw2 for years that people can’t always see what’s going on in combat” which is fair enough. On the other hand, the consistent feedback has also been that PvE combat in particular is very easy. In most cases we don’t need to see what’s going on in any great level of detail.

For the open-world PvE gameplay I’ve been enjoying for the last three years the huge explosions and spectacular spell effects have been a major part of the attraction. Take those away and it exposes the threadbare nature of a lot of what lies behind it. Personally I was very happy with a visually spectacular game that was very easy to play. Not at all sure I’d be as interested in the reverse, which is where we appear to be heading.

Bring back the big explosions. If we get a slider for visual noise I’ll be setting mine to “Deafening Roar”.

Mr. Colin.

We are not denying there were complaints for the last 3 years in every aspect of the game having too much visual noise.

We are arguing here the fact that the way your team implemented and carried out the visual nerfs was done poorly. You guys toned things too much and didn’t take good care of when to visually nerf things (such as boss scaled size fights).

AND, you did not take the time to implement these changes with the option available in the graphics pane.

People have already ran into the ground that making an ele’s fireball a spark/pebble & the auras an barely visible egg is quite not practical. It takes away our profession’s visual flair. It makes PVP difficult to spot players using skills. It brings down the identity of our professions and roles, not visual clutter.

Anybody watch the ESL games yesterday? I did, and I sure as heck could not make out what was happening. The games were a literal mess of cancerous pink Mesmer wells and red-and-black Revenant skill effects. Meanwhile, it was next to impossible to tell which Aura the Tempests popped without constantly looking at their status bars.

Oh but please, continue, tell me how unwatchable Fireball makes the game.

Way to fix what’s not broken and ignore the real problem, Anet.

Another request to return the Tempest’s fire balls to their original size and appearance. Please implement a toggle or slider in Options to reduce the effects for other players rather than destroying everyone’s visuals.

Add, I can barely tell I’m blasting a water field on my Ele to the list.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Did you play GW1 by chance? Or know anything about it? Would answer your own questions there.

Did you play GW2 by chance? Or know anything about it?

Sorry to be sarcastic, but other than the ‘Guild Wars’ part in the name (only), the two games are so unrelated it really doesn’t matter.

This post should be bumped back to the frontpage. Give us back our intitial spell effects please! All of them.
Staff on ele is really depressing to look at atm, as it was my favorite weapon of choice…
Please just give us a slider so we can decide for ourselves if we want to reduce “visual noise”.

Carighan.6758:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Did you play GW1 by chance? Or know anything about it? Would answer your own questions there.

Did you play GW2 by chance? Or know anything about it?

Sorry to be sarcastic, but other than the ‘Guild Wars’ part in the name (only), the two games are so unrelated it really doesn’t matter.

Oh for kittens sake, take into consideration the questions posed in which I was responding to. “Anet prioritizing pvp and paid tournaments over pve” Anyone that played it should be well aware that GW1 was designed as a pvp game, pve was just a “bonus.” PvP was the golden child, and even here it still is. Yes, GW2 and GW1 are very different games. However, they are made by the same kitten people. PvP is still their baby, which is why skill balancing (and now its effects) is based around it and not pve or wvw.

HELLOOOO ARENA NET? IS ANYBODY THERE? THIS TOPIC IS 14 PAGES LONG, WHAT ELSE DOES IT TAKE TO GET AN ANSWER AROUND HERE?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Carighan.6758:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Did you play GW1 by chance? Or know anything about it? Would answer your own questions there.

Did you play GW2 by chance? Or know anything about it?

Sorry to be sarcastic, but other than the ‘Guild Wars’ part in the name (only), the two games are so unrelated it really doesn’t matter.

Oh for kittens sake, take into consideration the questions posed in which I was responding to. “Anet prioritizing pvp and paid tournaments over pve” Anyone that played it should be well aware that GW1 was designed as a pvp game, pve was just a “bonus.” PvP was the golden child, and even here it still is. Yes, GW2 and GW1 are very different games. However, they are made by the same kitten people. PvP is still their baby, which is why skill balancing (and now its effects) is based around it and not pve or wvw.

Precisely, in spite of this fact PvE is often seen as the larger of the 2 communities however because that is where ArenaNET excel at and they had better start accepting that fact, they simply are not and never will be sitting on the next DOTA, LOL or even Starcraft 2, in fact I might say that Starcraft 1 is still bigger than Guild Wars 1 or 2 on the esports front, there are just to many other bigger names at the top of the list already, once a gamer who is into all that esports thing is invested in those he doesn’t have time for looking at others let alone playing them!.

Not to say they shouldn’t even try but reality is reality there is zero use in deluding oneself that for all the attempts to gode / force people into PvP people just don’t want it, because it’s not where this games shines for most, the only time I PvP is — wintersday, why? because -everything- is balanced, there is no x,y,z build is better than a,b,c,d build and if you bought (x) to an (a) build fight you may as well just /quit because you’re dead and lost anyway, sure some enjoy this type of game play all the power to you have fun but it’s not for me, personally I prefer a more balanced equal encounter what you have I have, if I lose it’s because your skill is better and not because you lobbed a large rune up your buttocks to give you +1 more dmg than me, that likely I would have done if I had the gold to buy it in the first place. — sorry ranting.

Plz fix visuals, de we need explanations for this?

Seabreeze.8437:

I wonder if Anet is thinking that if they ignore the problem, it will eventually go away.

Wouldn’t be the first time, and definitely won’t be the last.

aerial.7021:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Carighan.6758:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Did you play GW1 by chance? Or know anything about it? Would answer your own questions there.

Did you play GW2 by chance? Or know anything about it?

Sorry to be sarcastic, but other than the ‘Guild Wars’ part in the name (only), the two games are so unrelated it really doesn’t matter.

Oh for kittens sake, take into consideration the questions posed in which I was responding to. “Anet prioritizing pvp and paid tournaments over pve” Anyone that played it should be well aware that GW1 was designed as a pvp game, pve was just a “bonus.” PvP was the golden child, and even here it still is. Yes, GW2 and GW1 are very different games. However, they are made by the same kitten people. PvP is still their baby, which is why skill balancing (and now its effects) is based around it and not pve or wvw.

Precisely, in spite of this fact PvE is often seen as the larger of the 2 communities however because that is where ArenaNET excel at and they had better start accepting that fact, they simply are not and never will be sitting on the next DOTA, LOL or even Starcraft 2, in fact I might say that Starcraft 1 is still bigger than Guild Wars 1 or 2 on the esports front, there are just to many other bigger names at the top of the list already, once a gamer who is into all that esports thing is invested in those he doesn’t have time for looking at others let alone playing them!.

Not to say they shouldn’t even try but reality is reality there is zero use in deluding oneself that for all the attempts to gode / force people into PvP people just don’t want it, because it’s not where this games shines for most, the only time I PvP is — wintersday, why? because -everything- is balanced, there is no x,y,z build is better than a,b,c,d build and if you bought (x) to an (a) build fight you may as well just /quit because you’re dead and lost anyway, sure some enjoy this type of game play all the power to you have fun but it’s not for me, personally I prefer a more balanced equal encounter what you have I have, if I lose it’s because your skill is better and not because you lobbed a large rune up your buttocks to give you +1 more dmg than me, that likely I would have done if I had the gold to buy it in the first place. — sorry ranting.

Careful with those thoughts. Last week it was revealed you cannot air grievances about e-sports without potentially damaging the entirety of the game.

DMB.3906:

ANet please return the animation for elementalist fire staff one to the ‘old’ animation. I am not a fan of the new ‘small’ fire balls.

Yes please, for every autohit the Ele uses…
I haven’t played my Ele much – until today, just to find out that I couldn’t see where my fireballs are going anymore. Seriously, my eyes are bad enough as they are, but at least I could see where my skills were going, even with a lot of people spamming their effects around me. Now I can’t even see to wich of the targets my skills are going.
Playing solo doesn’t make it better. You don’t really see what you’re doing until impact. That’s confusing and I’m tinking about stopping to play Ele at all.

It’s okay to ‘nerf’ the BIG skills, but please, auto attacks?

Give us at least some sort of toggle for that. What about the Effekt LOD option? Couldn’t you have tied your nerfs to that option, so that people who do not use it do not suffer of it?

The fireball isn’t that bad, but auras and wells ought to be easily readable in combat.

That response from Colin is extremely defensive. It didn’t come across well at all. And equating the complaints about competitive pvp with wanting the game to fail was utter ROT!

he came across as a petulant frat boy. Not professional.

Mitch.4781:

That response from Colin is extremely defensive. It didn’t come across well at all. And equating the complaints about competitive pvp with wanting the game to fail was utter ROT!

he came across as a petulant frat boy. Not professional.

I can’t believe they haven’t reverted the auras. You can’t see the new auras.

They’re Ripping the game apart skill by skill, killing the effects that the original design team put a lot of work into.

It’s wrong.

Those hyperactive bats are more “Visually noisy” than my fireballs ever were.

VFX sliders please. Don’t force unwanted changes on us.

Mitch.4781:

That response from Colin is extremely defensive. It didn’t come across well at all. And equating the complaints about competitive pvp with wanting the game to fail was utter ROT!

he came across as a petulant frat boy. Not professional.

Somehow, I don’t see how this game will ever really make it in the e-sports arena. Game’s just not designed with that in mind, and it feels like all the effort to try and force it into a mold that isn’t likely to ever fit will end up being wasted time and money when it’s all said and done.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Mitch.4781:

That response from Colin is extremely defensive. It didn’t come across well at all. And equating the complaints about competitive pvp with wanting the game to fail was utter ROT!

he came across as a petulant frat boy. Not professional.

Somehow, I don’t see how this game will ever really make it in the e-sports arena. Game’s just not designed with that in mind, and it feels like all the effort to try and force it into a mold that isn’t likely to ever fit will end up being wasted time and money when it’s all said and done.

There’s a reddit post which I think has a lot of truth in it here.

It’s not that GW2 doesn’t have potential, it has the wrong leadership.

Daharahj.1325:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Mitch.4781:

That response from Colin is extremely defensive. It didn’t come across well at all. And equating the complaints about competitive pvp with wanting the game to fail was utter ROT!

he came across as a petulant frat boy. Not professional.

Somehow, I don’t see how this game will ever really make it in the e-sports arena. Game’s just not designed with that in mind, and it feels like all the effort to try and force it into a mold that isn’t likely to ever fit will end up being wasted time and money when it’s all said and done.

There’s a reddit post which I think has a lot of truth in it here.

It’s not that GW2 doesn’t have potential, it has the wrong leadership.

Ouch..that is um..scathing! Have to admit…I did chuckle a bit though at the description of certain people…..

Elden Arnaas.4870:

The fireball isn’t that bad, but auras and wells ought to be easily readable in combat.

Maybe for you. A lot of people other than just me feel that they ARE a problem.
As for the auras – I miss the bubbles around me, but personally I can live with the circle around my feet – Though I perfectly understand that it makes it impossible to read them in PvP or WvW.

And yeah, a slider would be great, I want the old effects back rather than the experience I have now. Everything seems cut down to nothing. Looks rather buggy than intended. o.o"

re: The fireball isn’t that bad/Maybe for you. – Sorry, I didn’t mean to infer that I liked it better.(or at all) I was just contrasting it with some of the other changes. It would be really nice to get options for this stuff. Or at least a response about this.

I think soon i will quit of this game, too many bad post launch patches that increment the frustration of the players instant making the game enjoyable. And also good job Arena.net! Continue about care this stupid E-Sports when your playerbase of this game will be gone if you continue don’t care. You will not have the same influences of in Pro scenes when we have already games like: Dota 2, League of Legends, StarCraft 2, Hearthstone, Counter Strike even StarCraft 1 it’s still bigger than your Guild Wars 2.

aerial.7021:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Carighan.6758:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Did you play GW1 by chance? Or know anything about it? Would answer your own questions there.

Did you play GW2 by chance? Or know anything about it?

Sorry to be sarcastic, but other than the ‘Guild Wars’ part in the name (only), the two games are so unrelated it really doesn’t matter.

Oh for kittens sake, take into consideration the questions posed in which I was responding to. “Anet prioritizing pvp and paid tournaments over pve” Anyone that played it should be well aware that GW1 was designed as a pvp game, pve was just a “bonus.” PvP was the golden child, and even here it still is. Yes, GW2 and GW1 are very different games. However, they are made by the same kitten people. PvP is still their baby, which is why skill balancing (and now its effects) is based around it and not pve or wvw.

Precisely, in spite of this fact PvE is often seen as the larger of the 2 communities however because that is where ArenaNET excel at and they had better start accepting that fact, they simply are not and never will be sitting on the next DOTA, LOL or even Starcraft 2, in fact I might say that Starcraft 1 is still bigger than Guild Wars 1 or 2 on the esports front, there are just to many other bigger names at the top of the list already, once a gamer who is into all that esports thing is invested in those he doesn’t have time for looking at others let alone playing them!.

Not to say they shouldn’t even try but reality is reality there is zero use in deluding oneself that for all the attempts to gode / force people into PvP people just don’t want it, because it’s not where this games shines for most, the only time I PvP is — wintersday, why? because -everything- is balanced, there is no x,y,z build is better than a,b,c,d build and if you bought (x) to an (a) build fight you may as well just /quit because you’re dead and lost anyway, sure some enjoy this type of game play all the power to you have fun but it’s not for me, personally I prefer a more balanced equal encounter what you have I have, if I lose it’s because your skill is better and not because you lobbed a large rune up your buttocks to give you +1 more dmg than me, that likely I would have done if I had the gold to buy it in the first place. — sorry ranting.

I’ll drink to that.

I have no issue with them wanting to make GW2 “as much” of a pvp game as GW1 was (we’re completely ignoring the esports factor for the time being here), but it shouldn’t be at the expense of the other modes they once took pride in claiming they offered.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Mitch.4781:

That response from Colin is extremely defensive. It didn’t come across well at all. And equating the complaints about competitive pvp with wanting the game to fail was utter ROT!

he came across as a petulant frat boy. Not professional.

Somehow, I don’t see how this game will ever really make it in the e-sports arena. Game’s just not designed with that in mind, and it feels like all the effort to try and force it into a mold that isn’t likely to ever fit will end up being wasted time and money when it’s all said and done.

You’re correct it won’t make e-sports arena, it has the wrong leadership at the helm.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I have no issue with them wanting to make GW2 “as much” of a pvp game as GW1 was (we’re completely ignoring the esports factor for the time being here), but it shouldn’t be at the expense of the other modes they once took pride in claiming they offered.

Me either, the leadership in GW1 observed this problem it took them “YEARS” to realise and identify it, but in the end kicking and screaming like little babies they put the axe where it was supposed to and sliced the connection between PvE & PvP like it should have been from the the start, this time I’d even go so far as to have them as separate branches in code, you download this client for PvE and this other one for PvP and never the twain shall meet.

The free to play should have been only for PvP, and locking PvE behind a Pay to play system such as they’ve always had.

My opinion: Restore the originals and code Graphics options that actually work, Graphics options allow flexibility for players to optimize the game.

We only have “Effect LOD”, which doesn’t work, it doesn’t reduce effect detail at distance, I’ve seen no differences so far.

Fireball: Cat farts (type of very low power fireworks that makes loud whistle sound and small pop, a unique name given in finland).
Eruption: Fart bubble pops in sand.
Auras: Eggshields which are extremely invisible.

A fireball is too much visual noise, but the christmas shoulder piece isn’t. Good logic Anet I r8 it 10/10.

Hirosama Nadasaki.6792:

A fireball is too much visual noise, but the christmas shoulder piece isn’t. Good logic Anet I r8 it 10/10.

There is no logic behind this beside the logic of avoiding doing the real changes that needs to be done like actually develop cool skills for the ele warhorn.

Just came in to check to see if anyone working for Anet had the courage to respond, but I can see they haven’t. Colin if this is how you treat your customers then I hope you FAIL! You deserve to FAIL! Oh well back to ESO.

Hirosama Nadasaki.6792:

A fireball is too much visual noise, but the christmas shoulder piece isn’t. Good logic Anet I r8 it 10/10.

More particle effects for The Dreamer, please.

I would like an audio nerf, I have had to turn sound off Guild Wars, mainly because all I can hear at world events is Pony Bow firing.

The thing with the shoulders is, they count as “armor”. Thus, you can easily turn them off in huge fights by using standard character models on other players. This is not the case for useless legendary effects in melee battle, because with the introduction of th wardrobe almost everyone carries Eternity or one of the other 2 legendary GS. Once in melee range, you only see their effects and you have NOTHING you can do about it – that won’t change if they cut down every skill effect to an almost unnoticeable minimum.

Imho they should get rid of all these annoying effects first, before they even dare touching the skills. x.x Especially if it just makes something unplayable. (Which the Ele now is – at least for me.) Some modes of the game are hard enough if you have bad eyes, but that really kills everything.

Makai.3429:

Hirosama Nadasaki.6792:

A fireball is too much visual noise, but the christmas shoulder piece isn’t. Good logic Anet I r8 it 10/10.

More particle effects for The Dreamer, please.

Oh, this please.

More sound effects for these things too, please, because we already know we need to get more water from the dolyaks to put out those fires.

Please, hear your customers, ANet. Add sliders and revert these visual “nerfs”. You’ve got some very unhappy people (I saw the one guys ‘farewell .png’ in this thread a few days ago with a nice uninstall screenshot with a very apt title). At least communicate with us (here, in this thread). The silence reeks of dismissal of the subject and if that’s the case, so be it, but at least say so.

Comon ANet, where are the brains left at???

Tried to play my Ele today, got enraged at first fireball and switched back to other character.
That reminded my of this topic and it was nearly on page 3. Can’t happen.
Also i do not understand how such an obvious mistake can go uncorrected and even unadressed for such a long time. twitch won’t happen, care about your game as it is and don’t destroy it even more by going for rediculous aims.

I hope we’ll get that slider everyone is talking about. But now we unfortunately still have to wait. It’s holiday. Maybe after New Year we’ll finally get some response.

I am not a hater, I like HoT and honestly don’t get most of the negativity towards it. I am also a relatively new player, so I just unlocked the Chronomancer wells. And I was so excited, I mean, I played the class a bit during the last beta weekend and those wells felt and looked absolutely amazing. Then I used them…

And the worst part is, the game is still incredibly cluttered and a lot of what Anet has done hasn’t helped the tiniest bit. Were the chronomancer wells or the ele fireball the reason for the visual clutter? No, it’s the effects ON THE ENEMIES.

But whatever, all of this has been said before, so I am adding nothing to this. Just want to keep this thread going until we get an official response.

Please allow for an OPTION to increase the visuals back to their previous state so that i can enjoy them in smaller groups and turn them down when im going to boss fights.

I came to play GW2 initialy because it looked gorgeous, nowadays when i cast some spells it just feels like meh… :/

It is time of holidays.As tradition goes,you have to be kind,and polite to the people,doesn’t matter if they are good or not to you.It is time of giving,and presents.

Now,since i do not have means,i am sure Arena Net does.They talking on every corner,how they care about their players,and how their community is the best one.
Since Arena Net,have access,to the Account Database,and they can see personal info of the players,my suggestion is next :

Since you love your players that much(at least you saying that),giving 10 full access to the core game,to the youngest players,randomly chosen would not be a big deal for you.

I am sure,there’s plenty of people,especially youngsters,who do not have money for the game,and yet they are faithful fans.Giving them something in return,would be nice,especially because Christmas and New year is coming.

Siobhan.5273:

Makai.3429:

Hirosama Nadasaki.6792:

A fireball is too much visual noise, but the christmas shoulder piece isn’t. Good logic Anet I r8 it 10/10.

More particle effects for The Dreamer, please.

Oh, this please.

More sound effects for these things too, please, because we already know we need to get more water from the dolyaks to put out those fires.

Please, hear your customers, ANet. Add sliders and revert these visual “nerfs”. You’ve got some very unhappy people (I saw the one guys ‘farewell .png’ in this thread a few days ago with a nice uninstall screenshot with a very apt title). At least communicate with us (here, in this thread). The silence reeks of dismissal of the subject and if that’s the case, so be it, but at least say so.

Yep. I decided to wait awhile and see if there would be any kind of official response about this. It’s been awhile, and this thread is upto 14 pages, yet no response at all.

It’s clear to me they do not care, and I am not having fun anymore so have uninstalled GW2. Sad it’s come to that, but this reduced how much I enjoyed my class alot, and speaks to Anet taking the game in a very bad direction.

DarkMecha.6230:

Siobhan.5273:

Makai.3429:

Hirosama Nadasaki.6792:

A fireball is too much visual noise, but the christmas shoulder piece isn’t. Good logic Anet I r8 it 10/10.

More particle effects for The Dreamer, please.

Oh, this please.

More sound effects for these things too, please, because we already know we need to get more water from the dolyaks to put out those fires.

Please, hear your customers, ANet. Add sliders and revert these visual “nerfs”. You’ve got some very unhappy people (I saw the one guys ‘farewell .png’ in this thread a few days ago with a nice uninstall screenshot with a very apt title). At least communicate with us (here, in this thread). The silence reeks of dismissal of the subject and if that’s the case, so be it, but at least say so.

Yep. I decided to wait awhile and see if there would be any kind of official response about this. It’s been awhile, and this thread is upto 14 pages, yet no response at all.

It’s clear to me they do not care, and I am not having fun anymore so have uninstalled GW2. Sad it’s come to that, but this reduced how much I enjoyed my class alot, and speaks to Anet taking the game in a very bad direction.

I haven’t left, yet, but I have stopped playing my Ele.

The lack of communication is disappointing. Okay, more than that, it is unnecessary. There is no reason to shut out customers like this. But hey, it isn’t my product that is being uninstalled by upset customers who feel ignored not 4 months after an expansion launched.

I like the game but I don’t like the politics of this silence stuff and horrid lack of communication ANet has going on right now. I feel they can, and should do better than this.

Do we need an explanation to fix this, really? an explanation?

Conqueror.3682:

Do we need an explanation to fix this, really? an explanation?

Nah, we could just go with a fix, but minus that, some communication would be excellent.

Boy, I sure hope Santa brings me a visual fix this year! (And not by the time Guild Wars 3 is released).

Happy 700 posts everybody! Merry Christmas!

Naah, no explanation will justify these screw ups/butchering. They just need to restore what was screwed up/butchered. Total imbecilic decision…

Well, according to one post in this topic (and by my experience), mobs are still all hidden under all the impact effects created by projectiles hitting the target, which the “fix” didn’t address at all.

There is this lovely gem to be found on Reddit too:

PSA-Equipping Outfits in Winter Wonderland Gives Aura Effects.

Are you a huge charr or norn looking to be more flashy and visually obstructive to hamper imagined competition in the jumping puzzle while grinding out your festive imbiber? Fear not, by simply equipping and unequipping (or changing) an outfit, you can pull up the effects of any legendary weapons you might have equipped, making you even harder to ignore whilst jumping and providing you a surefire method of people leaping to their dooms!

But add those silly pvp badge tags every 5 minutes and leave particles, heck, add more, more, fluff stuff, etc.. while nerfing graphics that were shown to us via promotional trailers for the expansion.. Just why?