Guild Wars 2

Theundersigned.4761:

I’m not sure if giving players more opportunities to get sprockets (without spending gems or finishing achievements) would help the core issue of this matter, but it might temper some frustrations.

It would not at all help the core issue, as the core issue isn’t sprockets. The issue is that there is an item, available only through the gem store and nowhere else in the game, that gives a distinct advantage to those with said item compared to those without. Added to that is the issue this creates with past owners of the permanent tools and the lack of consumer faith this creates.

The core issue, then, is the entire precedent this creates and the damage it can do now, and in the future, to the integrity of the game.

Ayrilana.1396:

I All gem store items are accessible by converting gold to gems.

But conversion is irrelevant, per your own words.

Azreell.1568:

2013 Q3 box sales and Gem store sales were down 25% according to many financial reports which all of you can easily look up.

That could explain a lot.

Hmm it does, but I still think that tricks like this only help short term, and alienate players in the long term.

I really hope they start working on features that players want and are very easy to monetize well, such as player houses. I’d really pay loads of money for premium house types, land size increases and furniture.

Azreell.1568:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Azreell.1568:

TChalla.7146:

Shasha.2548:

No, its convenience : you dont have to worry about that.

That is your opinion, which is where the “Pay to Win” definition is flawed. It is too open to opinion.

I will go one step beyond the P2W argument.

With their current gem store practices they are loosing faith with their consumers and thus over the course of the game will cost them sales.

First the Berserker nerf which many people bought gems to convert to gold to make their ascended sets it now being changed. Good or bad – they still are no longer getting what they thought they purchased.

Now we are moving to mining nodes. Why bother buying infinite ones if you have no clue how much better or worse they may change them in the future.

Obviously – With this current change people who already spent money feel taken advantage.

I myself think I’m taking a long break spending anything with Anet for awhile as my trust in them is not exactly high atm due to the above reasons.

So either Anet is making customer relations mistakes one after another that will affect them in the long term

or

could it be that they don’t anticipate a long term, that they themselves have given up on the game and are making as many cash grabs as possible before everything goes poof?

2013 Q3 box sales and Gem store sales were down 25% according to many financial reports which all of you can easily look up.

That could explain a lot.

Keep in mind that Q3 2012 included launch month. I am not surprised that they didnt sell as much copies in 3 months in Q3/2013 than during September 2012.

Gene Archer.8560:

Theundersigned.4761:

I’m not sure if giving players more opportunities to get sprockets (without spending gems or finishing achievements) would help the core issue of this matter, but it might temper some frustrations.

It would not at all help the core issue, as the core issue isn’t sprockets. The issue is that there is an item, available only through the gem store and nowhere else in the game, that gives a distinct advantage to those with said item compared to those without. Added to that is the issue this creates with past owners of the permanent tools and the lack of consumer faith this creates.

The core issue, then, is the entire precedent this creates and the damage it can do now, and in the future, to the integrity of the game.

That’s okay. You don’t need to explain it to me; I already understand. I just try not to speak in absolutes when voicing my opinions.

“I’m not sure” = I can’t tell the future

“core issue” = advantage the tool gives

“temper frustrations” = compromise that doesn’t make everyone happy but sympathizes with ArenaNet’s reasons.

Just to avoid confusion.

I find some of the ideas and arguments on these threads kind of silly.

The idea that anet should refund/upgrade tools or some how trolled molten alliance picks is just plain silly… It would be like being upset at Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft for making a next generation console and demanding a refund or a upgrade and calling them trolls for releasing it. Any rational person is just going to throw their head back and laugh at you.

The conjecture and speculation that they may set us on a path where tools will include other more higher valued items is just that, speculation and conjecture to exaggerate a weak pay to win argument. If they had plans or showed intent to do this to high value items, then you might have a point but we know nothing in terms what might come out.

This is pay to win? what are you winning exactly? The future chance at some items? Sorry we are entirely passed this point of cash shop items much less gems providing economic benefit. To call this pay to win and none of the other infinite gathering tools, salvage items, cash to gold conversions, and convince items is hypocritical.

Most people don’t realize the effect it will have on whatever item they choose to stick on these tools. If they had not dropped the price floor (merchant value) off the any of the items in question then I would be worried. Whatever item they stick on these tools is going to be produced (farmed) into worthlessness. So in reality the tool is really a economic loser over a reasonable period of cost recovery because it floods the market with supply faster than any other individual item type being farmed with it.

I like this new tool because ideally people are throwing away gold and cash to make whatever tool item dirt cheap for the rest of us that are unwilling to pay for it.

People are just suffering from buyers remorse big time.

Theundersigned.4761:

That’s okay. You don’t need to explain it to me; I already understand. I just try not to speak in absolutes when voicing my opinions.

Sorry ‘bout that, it’s so hard to tell anymore, because people are still showing up and attributing the problem to sprockets.

Mireles Lore.5942:

I find some of the ideas and arguments on these threads kind of silly.

The idea that anet should refund/upgrade tools or some how trolled molten alliance picks is just plain silly… It would be like being upset at Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft for making a next generation console and demanding a refund or a upgrade and calling them trolls for releasing it. Any rational person is just going to throw their head back and laugh at you.

The conjecture and speculation that they may set us on a path where tools will include other more higher valued items is just that, speculation and conjecture to exaggerate a weak pay to win argument. If they had plans or showed intent to do this to high value items, then you might have a point but we know nothing in terms what might come out.

This is pay to win? what are you winning exactly? The future chance at some items? Sorry we are entirely passed this point of cash shop items much less gems providing economic benefit. To call this pay to win and none of the other infinite gathering tools, salvage items, cash to gold conversions, and convince items is hypocritical.

Most people don’t realize the effect it will have on whatever item they choose to stick on these tools. If they had not dropped the price floor (merchant value) off the any of the items in question then I would be worried. Whatever item they stick on these tools is going to be produced (farmed) into worthlessness. So in reality the tool is really a economic loser over a reasonable period of cost recovery because it floods the market with supply faster than any other individual item being farmed with it.

I like this new tool because ideally people are throwing away gold and cash to make whatever tool item dirt cheap for the rest of us that are unwilling to pay for it.

People are just suffering from buyers remorse big time.

I fully agree. Well said.

Saying that the new pick is ‘P2W’ is false. Pay to win means those that pay with real life money have a distinct advantage over others that dont and considering everything in the gem store can be bought with in game gold, how can the pick possibly be ‘P2W’?

Its no more ‘P2W’ than Ascended armour is. I mean you can convert bought gems into gold and buy 90% of the mats the same day. The majority of people are moaning on here because they no longer own a BiS item but things move on, items get better. I purchased a full exotic set for an alt a few weeks before the Ascended patch thinking it would stay BiS….doesnt mean im entitled to a full ascended set.

Get mad all you want but dont say the pick is ‘P2W’ because its not true. I welcome this change and look forward to seeing what ANET come up with next.

It’s happening, it has happened. The item, with a distinct bonus, is right in front of you, and yet this isn’t them showing plans or intents?

…Really? I’m sorry, but really?

The precedent is right here, right now. The precedent is being set. It only takes it happening once for it to continue in the future.

Gene Archer.8560:

It’s happening, it has happened. The item, with a distinct bonus, is right in front of you, and yet this isn’t them showing plans or intents?

…Really? I’m sorry, but really?

The precedent is right here, right now. The precedent is being set. It only takes it happening once for it to continue in the future.

The time is Neigh, The End is NEAR!

Please just because they come out with this one item doesn’t mean there going to start making it attached to economic cornerstones and high value items. But, if saying it over and over is enough for you to accept it as fact, please proceed.

I don’t know why they just flat out refuse to address the issue. They’re hope it will die off in time, and the sad part is, it may very well do that.

We need to keep these threads bumped. Maybe it’ll actually trigger a response.

Gene Archer.8560:

Theundersigned.4761:

I’m not sure if giving players more opportunities to get sprockets (without spending gems or finishing achievements) would help the core issue of this matter, but it might temper some frustrations.

It would not at all help the core issue, as the core issue isn’t sprockets. The issue is that there is an item, available only through the gem store and nowhere else in the game, that gives a distinct advantage to those with said item compared to those without. Added to that is the issue this creates with past owners of the permanent tools and the lack of consumer faith this creates.

The core issue, then, is the entire precedent this creates and the damage it can do now, and in the future, to the integrity of the game.

Ayrilana.1396:

I All gem store items are accessible by converting gold to gems.

But conversion is irrelevant, per your own words.

No. You’re taking one post in a different context and trying to use it to dispute another post that’s in a different context.

Mireles Lore.5942:

The time is Neigh, The End is NEAR!

If you don’t actually want to contribute meaningfully, why are you here?

Mireles Lore.5942:

Please just because they come out with this one item doesn’t mean there going to start making it attached to economic cornerstones and high value items.

Perception is everything. Whether they do or not, people now have the feeling they will, or even just can (which they can), and this erodes trust. Erosion in trust means erosion in sales, because what’s the point in getting this pick if an even better one is going to come out?

Mireles Lore.5942:

But, if saying it over and over is enough for you to accept it as fact, please proceed.

It -is- fact. Because I’m not saying that they will do this. I’m saying that the precedent is there for them to do it -again-. Which it -is-.

It doesn’t have to happen multiple times for a precedent to be set.

The amount of money to buy the pick is more than you will ever generate by using it. Thus making it “pay to lose” no?

Name in use already.7294:

The amount of money to buy the pick is more than you will ever generate by using it. Thus making it “pay to lose” no?

If its the only way to get that with home instance in 8mouth, then its more than worth it.
Just try to imagine the same issus, 8 mouth ago with Azurite.

But actualy who care about worth it or not here. It is more powerfull, and only on gemstore, its all.

Name in use already.7294:

The amount of money to buy the pick is more than you will ever generate by using it. Thus making it “pay to lose” no?

And if it had, say, 10% chance to give you an ecto/strike? Would you hate it then?

It doesn’t matter WHAT it gives, all that matters is they’re opened the gates to introduce these kinds of things.

What about an armor set that gives 50% Magic Find while worn? How about a harvesting sickle that gives spore samples. See my point?

I think that converting a thousand gems into gold and flipping items on the trading post is even more “powerful” and less time consuming than mining ore. Next Question!

Yes, so spend 12.5$.
Ho wait…

This update has been a huge success. ANET really did a good job appeal img to both casual players and hardcore alike. But do you know who they didnt appeal to? The complainers. Thus when an opportunity to complain arose, a huge tide of people rushed to vent their real world frustration. Very soon everyone will realise that the pick is useless anyway.

I think most of us already know this pickaxe is useless.

And all of us is forced to admit at release we have to deal with a little economic adventage P2W related.

But, isnt the point here.

The ingame item from gemstore is more powerfull than the ingame item out of gemstore. He have additional effect, you cant contest that.
THAT is the point.

General fyi, y’all don’t necessarily want a dev response. The gemstore is barely a development domain for this item, mostly reused functionality… hardly any dev time at all for this. You’d want your message to get to someone else, likely marketing/sales as they probably have a team for the gemstore.

Mireles Lore.5942:

I find some of the ideas and arguments on these threads kind of silly.

The idea that anet should refund/upgrade tools or some how trolled molten alliance picks is just plain silly… It would be like being upset at Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft for making a next generation console and demanding a refund or a upgrade and calling them trolls for releasing it. Any rational person is just going to throw their head back and laugh at you.

The conjecture and speculation that they may set us on a path where tools will include other more higher valued items is just that, speculation and conjecture to exaggerate a weak pay to win argument. If they had plans or showed intent to do this to high value items, then you might have a point but we know nothing in terms what might come out.

This is pay to win? what are you winning exactly? The future chance at some items? Sorry we are entirely passed this point of cash shop items much less gems providing economic benefit. To call this pay to win and none of the other infinite gathering tools, salvage items, cash to gold conversions, and convince items is hypocritical.

Most people don’t realize the effect it will have on whatever item they choose to stick on these tools. If they had not dropped the price floor (merchant value) off the any of the items in question then I would be worried. Whatever item they stick on these tools is going to be produced (farmed) into worthlessness. So in reality the tool is really a economic loser over a reasonable period of cost recovery because it floods the market with supply faster than any other individual item type being farmed with it.

I like this new tool because ideally people are throwing away gold and cash to make whatever tool item dirt cheap for the rest of us that are unwilling to pay for it.

People are just suffering from buyers remorse big time.

Fyi, companies incrementally work towards things they think they want to do.

If ANet thinks they want to do something in the future that is obviously pay to win to people now, they’ll do something like this pick to gauge the response and gather metrics to see if they’re going in a direction they’re users would support.

The user base’s negative response is good for those who are against paying for advantage concepts, because this is paying for an advantage.

There’s already a lot of possible ways to pay for an advantage they are just small enough that there’s not too much noise about them.

To bring it back to a more real life comparison to the incremental progress towards p2w, if you’re in the USA you feel like the constitution and the bill of rights are your unalienable rights. However, congress continuously has and does pass laws that they say trump those core rights, more recently one of the most egrigious being the patriot act and NSA policies and programs that have been derived from it.

It’s not a perfect comparison, but it gets the point across.

A problem with their gauging interest in this new direction on the number of sales of this item is that the tool does not state this additional functionality in the description of the watchwork pick in the gem store. The only ways for a person to know of this change prior to purchase is by reading the actual information release page on the tool or by word of mouth from others who have read it or had purchased and discovered this additional functionality and shared this with them. If they are intending to base future offerings on the purchase volume of this pick with additional functionality, then their metrics will be void due to players mainly being unaware of the additional functionality prior to purchasing it. Unless the lack of noting the additional functionality on the item in the gem store was intentional or a mistake, the metrics will not be a reliable source for them to base future offerings on.

One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!

You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.

Raine.1394:

One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!

You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.

I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.

Raine.1394:

One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!

You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.

In this game the progression competition is also around who can obtain different gear stat combos and gear skins the quickest.

StinVec.3621:

Raine.1394:

One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!

You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.

I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.

Power creep has only one sense. Google it.

Raine.1394:

StinVec.3621:

Raine.1394:

One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!

You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.

I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.

Power creep has only one sense. Google it.

I do not agree with your statement. Your statement and tone also implies you are not open to a discussion on this matter so I will not be making any further replies to you in regards to this.

Gene Archer.8560:

It’s happening, it has happened. The item, with a distinct bonus, is right in front of you, and yet this isn’t them showing plans or intents?

…Really? I’m sorry, but really?

The precedent is right here, right now. The precedent is being set. It only takes it happening once for it to continue in the future.

I posted about this a lot in the other thread which I won’t reference or dredge my posts back up but I’ll point out two separate and relevant issues:

First – Sprockets being available is an issue as a precedent, but there is perhaps a line they set internally knowing sprockets are available in large quantities when the Queen’s Pavilion is open. Something they have alluded to being possible in the future so the Gauntlet is active again. If there are other unlimited gathering items which allow for bonus gains, I would expect they be tempered in just that way. Furthermore, they have allowed it to produce an item which is still available right now, still can be made available to people widely right now in their home instance.

Secondly – Everyone seems to assume this precedent will be chased to incredible, hyperbolic representations. “First they introduce something which generates an extra item, next it starts generating valuable materials, and finally next year we get a pick producing Ectoplasm or straight up gold coins!” It’s telling how many people immediately reach for the concept ArenaNet is going to screw over the players, hard, and there is no other possibility than it coming to pass. It’s almost offensive to consider how this interesting idea is being regarded as “the end of decency” or similar representations of extreme hyperbole.

The funny thing is, as I stated in the other topic ankitten ot afraid to keep stating: those who worry ArenaNet has strayed from the path of the righteous? Pay to win already existed back in GW1 with the Skill Unlock Packs. Trying to say this is the “first step” doesn’t hold water for me if you’re going to say any advantage through real cash is “pay to win”.

I just bought 3 of the new picks for some of my alts. Why? Because I can and I don’t care.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I am firmly against this new functionality of the Watchwork Pick. It sets a bad precedent where gem store items have better functionality than anything a player could normally get in the game, and it also raises the spectre of power creep for similar items in the future. Future unlimited tools will have to match or exceed what the Watchwork Pick offers, or players simply won’t buy it, which basically traps ANet on this path. Who’s to say that a new unlimited salvage kit that gives +1 Rare Mats/Ectos/Dark Matter per salvage isn’t a possibility in the future, for example?

Gem store items should stick to convenience and cosmetic benefits only.

StinVec.3621:

I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.

While I understand what you mean with two senses of power creep, I agree with what Raine said a few posts up: both versions of power creep do the same thing. Let me explain. One of the versions, according to you is where your attributes are scaling upwards. However, look at where these stat points come from: your gear, which is now obsolete, as you say, because there is something more powerful, even if it is only +166 instead of +155 (you can fill in whatever sets of scaling numbers you want). So, I would argue that both types do the same thing: one adds functionality, one adds more points; it doesn’t matter.

As to my own opinion, I will not be getting one because it wouldn’t be worth my money, gold or irl. I don’t know about the P2W mentioned in the terminated thread, but it does definitely walk a very fine line, and sets a dangerous precedent.

tl;dr Both types are the same, but the new pick was still a bad move by Anet.

StinVec.3621:

Raine.1394:

StinVec.3621:

Raine.1394:

One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!

You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.

I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.

Power creep has only one sense. Google it.

I do not agree with your statement. Your statement and tone also implies you are not open to a discussion on this matter so I will not be making any further replies to you in regards to this.

No worries. Yes, I understand power creep and I am not open to alternate meanings of a clear term and concept. I believe you have understood me correctly.

The reason I am against this new pick is because I fear that in an attempt to improve revenue for themselves, Anet is actually going to end up accomplishing the opposite (thus hurting development of a game I enjoy) due to the implications that people are seeing in this item.

As a prospective buyer of an item, I would want to get the most for my money. The last new pick, the Bone Pick, was available on Nov. 20th, 2013. This better Watchwork pick became available Jan. 28th, 2014, approximately two months later, for the same price. If I want to end up with the best possible pick that I can get, my best course of action is to wait another two months hoping for an even better pick to come out instead of spending my money now. It’s certainly not guaranteed that there will be a new one by then, but it sure seems a lot more likely now than it did, say, a week ago. Now, in order to get these delayed purchasers to actually spend, Anet has to give them the thing they are waiting for, or promise there never will be such (so that they know to stop waiting). But if they DO come out with an even better item to entice those who are waiting, that just encourages even more waiting for the next, even better one than that.

If there is an expectation that purchasing later will be better than purchasing now, purchasing will be delayed. If there is an expectation that purchasing later will ALWAYS be better than purchasing now, purchasing will be delayed indefinitely.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

StinVec.3621:

I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.

While I understand what you mean with two senses of power creep, I agree with what Raine said a few posts up: both versions of power creep do the same thing. Let me explain. One of the versions, according to you is where your attributes are scaling upwards. However, look at where these stat points come from: your gear, which is now obsolete, as you say, because there is something more powerful, even if it is only +166 instead of +155 (you can fill in whatever sets of scaling numbers you want). So, I would argue that both types do the same thing: one adds functionality, one adds more points; it doesn’t matter.

As to my own opinion, I will not be getting one because it wouldn’t be worth my money, gold or irl. I don’t know about the P2W mentioned in the terminated thread, but it does definitely walk a very fine line, and sets a dangerous precedent.

tl;dr Both types are the same, but the new pick was still a bad move by Anet.

One thing to consider is that the opposite of power creep, or vertical progression, is horizontal progression. In it’s classical form it adds functionality to the game through skill or ability progression, but, at the same time, it has nothing to do with power creep or vertical progression. Adding functionality does not equal power creep. Only adding power produces power creep.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

First – Sprockets being available is an issue as a precedent, but there is perhaps a line they set internally knowing sprockets are available in large quantities when the Queen’s Pavilion is open. Something they have alluded to being possible in the future so the Gauntlet is active again. If there are other unlimited gathering items which allow for bonus gains, I would expect they be tempered in just that way. Furthermore, they have allowed it to produce an item which is still available right now, still can be made available to people widely right now in their home instance.

That doesn’t matter to the point being made. It has never mattered to the point being made. Why do you keep bringing up sprockets when sprockets aren’t what the issue is about?

The problem is that the pick generates anything extra AT ALL. That there is no item in the game itself that does anything similar. It doesn’t matter that it’s sprockets.

At this point you are purposefully ignoring the point being made and attempting to say the argument is about sprockets. STOP IT.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Secondly – Everyone seems to assume this precedent will be chased to incredible, hyperbolic representations. “First they introduce something which generates an extra item, next it starts generating valuable materials, and finally next year we get a pick producing Ectoplasm or straight up gold coins!” It’s telling how many people immediately reach for the concept ArenaNet is going to screw over the players, hard, and there is no other possibility than it coming to pass. It’s almost offensive to consider how this interesting idea is being regarded as “the end of decency” or similar representations of extreme hyperbole.

That is the position Anet has placed itself in with its customers through the actions they’ve taken in the past. From Ascended Gear to the Flamekissed Armor and what have you. As the company, their decisions have created this mistrust.

If you continue to focus on the hyperbole, you will always miss the point being made. Regardless of how hyperbolic anything being said is, it will remain truth that a precedent is set with this if it is left alone. You’re welcome to disagree on how severe it will be in the future, but you cannot argue the lack of a precedent being set.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The funny thing is, as I stated in the other topic ankitten ot afraid to keep stating: those who worry ArenaNet has strayed from the path of the righteous? Pay to win already existed back in GW1 with the Skill Unlock Packs. Trying to say this is the “first step” doesn’t hold water for me if you’re going to say any advantage through real cash is “pay to win”.

I’m not saying this is pay to win, though. The pick gives a distinct advantage. That is true. This creates a precedent that can be used later down the line. This is true. It breeds mistrust in the consumers because of the obsolescence of earlier picks and the thought of “why buy one now when the next will be better?”. This is true.

That’s all I’m saying. Never once have I called this pay to win. Vol didn’t really, either.

I’m against the new item if for no reason than the fact that Arena.net really doesn’t advertise what exactly it does very well at all. If you are someone who just reads tooltips wouldn’t think there was anything particularly unique about this item.

In addition, it is increasingly sounding like the sprockets aren’t so much an “additional” item as much as it is replacing the extra ore strikes you sometimes can get. On one hand, it would be a pretty good balancing factor that would somewhat dull the rage… on the other, again, Arena.net is NOT relaying this information conclusively.

When you don’t clearly tell your customers what they are buying (even if you think it’s trivial), and leave it for your customers to speculate (especially on official forums – which inherently slant towards negative and distrustful regardless of game)… you are GOING to get raked over the coals of forum opinion.

You’d think they’d have learned that lesson by now.

Theundersigned.4761:

Gene Archer.8560:

Theundersigned.4761:

I’m not sure if giving players more opportunities to get sprockets (without spending gems or finishing achievements) would help the core issue of this matter, but it might temper some frustrations.

It would not at all help the core issue, as the core issue isn’t sprockets. The issue is that there is an item, available only through the gem store and nowhere else in the game, that gives a distinct advantage to those with said item compared to those without. Added to that is the issue this creates with past owners of the permanent tools and the lack of consumer faith this creates.

The core issue, then, is the entire precedent this creates and the damage it can do now, and in the future, to the integrity of the game.

That’s okay. You don’t need to explain it to me; I already understand. I just try not to speak in absolutes when voicing my opinions.

“I’m not sure” = I can’t tell the future

“core issue” = advantage the tool gives

“temper frustrations” = compromise that doesn’t make everyone happy but sympathizes with ArenaNet’s reasons.

Just to avoid confusion.

Wrong. Any infinite anything that otherwise cost gold in game is pay to win. You are paying real world money so you don’t have to pay in game money. That is technically pay to win. And I can make the same argument towards the molten alliance pick that you guys bought. You guys got exactly what you paid for and you decided to pay to win. Now a new pay to win item is better than your old pay to win item. And now instead of paying more to win you wan’t ANET to give you free wins and maybe if we QQ hard enough they will.

Warlord.9074:

Theundersigned.4761:

Gene Archer.8560:

Theundersigned.4761:

I’m not sure if giving players more opportunities to get sprockets (without spending gems or finishing achievements) would help the core issue of this matter, but it might temper some frustrations.

It would not at all help the core issue, as the core issue isn’t sprockets. The issue is that there is an item, available only through the gem store and nowhere else in the game, that gives a distinct advantage to those with said item compared to those without. Added to that is the issue this creates with past owners of the permanent tools and the lack of consumer faith this creates.

The core issue, then, is the entire precedent this creates and the damage it can do now, and in the future, to the integrity of the game.

That’s okay. You don’t need to explain it to me; I already understand. I just try not to speak in absolutes when voicing my opinions.

“I’m not sure” = I can’t tell the future

“core issue” = advantage the tool gives

“temper frustrations” = compromise that doesn’t make everyone happy but sympathizes with ArenaNet’s reasons.

Just to avoid confusion.

Wrong. Any infinite anything that otherwise cost gold in game is pay to win. You are paying real world money so you don’t have to pay in game money. That is technically pay to win. And I can make the same argument towards the molten alliance pick that you guys bought. You guys got exactly what you paid for and you decided to pay to win. Now a new pay to win item is better than your old pay to win item. And now instead of paying more to win you wan’t ANET to give you free wins and maybe if we QQ hard enough they will.

What this is saying is that all RMT monetization schemes are, essentially, P2Win. I mean if $$ are in any way convertible to in-game currency then this is so. Given that this is the current vogue in monetization, this would mean that every non-sub game currently is Pay2win. Is this so?

Raine.1394:

Warlord.9074:

Theundersigned.4761:

Gene Archer.8560:

Theundersigned.4761:

I’m not sure if giving players more opportunities to get sprockets (without spending gems or finishing achievements) would help the core issue of this matter, but it might temper some frustrations.

It would not at all help the core issue, as the core issue isn’t sprockets. The issue is that there is an item, available only through the gem store and nowhere else in the game, that gives a distinct advantage to those with said item compared to those without. Added to that is the issue this creates with past owners of the permanent tools and the lack of consumer faith this creates.

The core issue, then, is the entire precedent this creates and the damage it can do now, and in the future, to the integrity of the game.

That’s okay. You don’t need to explain it to me; I already understand. I just try not to speak in absolutes when voicing my opinions.

“I’m not sure” = I can’t tell the future

“core issue” = advantage the tool gives

“temper frustrations” = compromise that doesn’t make everyone happy but sympathizes with ArenaNet’s reasons.

Just to avoid confusion.

Wrong. Any infinite anything that otherwise cost gold in game is pay to win. You are paying real world money so you don’t have to pay in game money. That is technically pay to win. And I can make the same argument towards the molten alliance pick that you guys bought. You guys got exactly what you paid for and you decided to pay to win. Now a new pay to win item is better than your old pay to win item. And now instead of paying more to win you wan’t ANET to give you free wins and maybe if we QQ hard enough they will.

What this is saying is that all RMT monetization schemes are, essentially, P2Win. I mean if $$ are in any way convertible to in-game currency then this is so. Given that this is the current vogue in monetization, this would mean that every non-sub game currently is Pay2win. Is this so?

Yup GW2 is no different. If paying real world money saves you in game money and time that is paying to win. In GW2 items offered in the CS may give you no real advantage in beating other players and this item is no different. While in the strictest definition paying to win gives a combat related advantage over other players. Will it be stronger attacks or defense or more hit points this item offers none of those advantages.

One of the cornerstones in GW2 philosophy is this: Gems doesn’t grant you increased in-game power in anyway.

This new pick is an apparent violation of this important philosophy. It is one more thing I’ll use to tell people to stay a way from this game. Another addition to the long list of fiascos ANet has pulled on its playerbase.

If we dont spend money on gemstore we cant have this additional effect. Its all about this.

And… Its the same for the new gemstore consumable too, but not so obvious so… :/

If they use the already economic advantage from gemstore that already exist for justify that, i’m totaly ok for extend my complain to ALL economic adventage in a P2W way.

Maybe for some i’m obstinate, but i dont care actualy. I’m, cause i really think is a bad way. (But isnt the only thing in the game, all "Unlimited * " is already in the bad way, but here, its over the red line cause they do something you cant do without.)

byjiang.1260:

One of the cornerstones in GW2 philosophy is this: Gems doesn’t grant you increased in-game power in anyway.

This new pick is an apparent violation of this important philosophy. It is one more thing I’ll use to tell people to stay a way from this game. Another addition to the long list of fiascos ANet has pulled on its playerbase.

How does this pick give you make you more powerful than someone who rely on skill? What is in game power? In game power is to be stronger than other players who don’t use the cash shop. Pretty sure this item won’t make you win WvW, Spvp or play better.

Gene Archer.8560:

That doesn’t matter to the point being made. It has never mattered to the point being made. Why do you keep bringing up sprockets when sprockets aren’t what the issue is about?

The problem is that the pick generates anything extra AT ALL. That there is no item in the game itself that does anything similar. It doesn’t matter that it’s sprockets.

At this point you are purposefully ignoring the point being made and attempting to say the argument is about sprockets. STOP IT.

Nope. The point is about it being done at all, but it’s also the point this is something which is still available, and potentially realistically available year-round at a rate of at least three per day.

The point is people, and not you but in general, pouncing on this idea of it being an exclusively available bonus for cash. It’s not, and either you trust them to have weighed that at all or you don’t. If you don’t trust them to make decisions on their game, and think they are either incompetent or moneygrubbers . . . why are you still playing?

Furthermore, if you want to talk about precedent? There’s a precedent set. It’s been set for a while now, since some servers via points get more value out of gathering nodes also. It’s been set when unlimited picks existed in the first place, despite the big price tag, because it immediately washed away the need to spend silver on picks ever again.

If you’re going to pull the precedent card about this, why didn’t it get pulled on day one over Power of the Mists?

That is the position Anet has placed itself in with its customers through the actions they’ve taken in the past. From Ascended Gear to the Flamekissed Armor and what have you. As the company, their decisions have created this mistrust.

If you continue to focus on the hyperbole, you will always miss the point being made. Regardless of how hyperbolic anything being said is, it will remain truth that a precedent is set with this if it is left alone. You’re welcome to disagree on how severe it will be in the future, but you cannot argue the lack of a precedent being set.

No. Hyperbole is not “truth”. It is an exaggeration of possibilities to make a point. I will continue to focus on hyperboles being done if people keep doing it for the sake of sensationalizing the precedent.

Again. If you don’t trust the company to handle their game, why are you here?

I’m not even angry anymore, I just really am confused as to what people actually intend to come out of this if they expect this is either incompetence or malice, and it’s “exactly as usual for this company”. The tone of the discussion doesn’t make sense for the goals stated about this topic.

I’m not saying this is pay to win, though. The pick gives a distinct advantage. That is true. This creates a precedent that can be used later down the line. This is true. It breeds mistrust in the consumers because of the obsolescence of earlier picks and the thought of “why buy one now when the next will be better?”. This is true.

That’s all I’m saying. Never once have I called this pay to win. Vol didn’t really, either.

No, but it still gets banged on like it means something. And it gets more wearying the longer it happens.

Does the pick give a distinct advantage? This depends on whether you consider the lucky few who earned the home instance nodes have a “distinct advantage”. If so, the existence of the pick is irrelevant.

Does it create a precedent which could be later used down the line? No. The precedent already existed, in the form of “Power of the Mists” rewarding players on high-scoring WvW servers with several bonuses including Gathering Bonus.

Does this breed mistrust in the consumers over perceived plans to make each purchase obsolete? Potentially. But there’s mistrust being piled on for so much other minor stuff for the sake of internet drama, I don’t expect it means anything anymore. Every decision made by ArenaNet, which affects the game at all breeds mistrust in some non-zero amount of the players. And among those who those players decide to go on about how idiotic the company is.

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

I had more responses to your points, but I deleted them after reading this, because;

>Asks me several times why I’m still here and playing this game
>Proceeds to play the “nothing ultimately matters” card

I don’t know whether you’re just trying to troll or not at this point, but I don’t really care. I’m done responding to you. You’re not going to agree with me, I’m not going to agree with you. Nothing more can be obtained from our communicating and nothing of value can be added to the thread or the discussion, especially from yourself.

If you really think this thread is that worthless, and that nothing ultimately matters, I would suggest you stop posting.

Gene Archer.8560:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

I had more responses to your points, but I deleted them after reading this, because;

>Asks me several times why I’m still here and playing this game
>Proceeds to play the “nothing ultimately matters” card

I don’t know whether you’re just trying to troll or not at this point, but I don’t really care. I’m done responding to you. You’re not going to agree with me, I’m not going to agree with you. Nothing more can be obtained from our communicating and nothing of value can be added to the thread or the discussion, especially from yourself.

I don’t agree with the particular point of view that ArenaNet is either incompetent or malicious in this addition and as a precedent it must mean there are further steps on this road.

I do agree there’s a precedent, though whether it’s set here or earlier depends on which part of this pick’s existence you want to label as a precedent.

I trust, perhaps foolishly, they’re not idiots to push the precedent everyone is up in arms about to a point where it becomes serious as opposed to sprockets.

(Stop telling me it’s not about sprockets. It is. It’s noticed because they’re a limited-time-acquisition item. If it doesn’t matter what “extra” is generated, then we have a problem from “Power of the Mists” and Gathering Boosters. Both of which were in at launch, both of which available without paying a single dollar beyond purchase of the game. If it matters because it’s sprockets, then I refer to my first post in this topic again about the myriad ways you can earn them. If it’s about the potential for something in the future being exclusive only to the gem store item, that’s a potential future we can’t realistically expect anymore than the gem store offering 250 Ectos for $50.)

If you really think this thread is that worthless, and that nothing ultimately matters, I would suggest you stop posting.

I don’t think the thread is worthless, or question its value. I question the motives of people posting in it who seem to assume ArenaNet is automatically going to do the worst they can imagine and nobody can convince them otherwise. I question the conclusions of inevitable actions.

I point out this game is inevitably doomed to stop some day because, frankly, it’s no less ludicrous than “next year there will be a pick which generates Globs of Ectoplasm or Obsidian Shards 100% of the time”. Actually, it is less ludicrous because my statement is 100% correct with basis in fact.

Raine.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.

It’s true, but really, as I just said to Gene, this is really just an indulgement in hyperbole like everyone else assuming that this pick is going to set the first step to ruining the game.

Depending on which detail about the pick you want to complain about, the precedent has always been there, and it’s simply in the hands of the developers and cash store team to not be overly lax on what they stamp on making available.

Final question: would we still be having this conversation if it was a 1% chest drop from a successful Marionette event or available from Cash Shop?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Raine.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.

It’s true, but really, as I just said to Gene, this is really just an indulgement in hyperbole like everyone else assuming that this pick is going to set the first step to ruining the game.

Depending on which detail about the pick you want to complain about, the precedent has always been there, and it’s simply in the hands of the developers and cash store team to not be overly lax on what they stamp on making available.

Final question: would we still be having this conversation if it was a 1% chest drop from a successful Marionette event or available from Cash Shop?

I don’t honestly know the answer to your question. I don’t actually have a problem with the pick.

Raine.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.

I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.

salutes

Finally someone that understands.

I’m not going to play a game that renders all my efforts useless and keeps me on an endless treadmill to nowhere, especially not if this endless threadmill keeps milking me of my money. I play Guild Wars 2 because I thought it’d not have endless vertical progression and planned obsolescence. GW1 was king at this. And I’ll be up on the barricades to make sure that GW2 will eventually live up to its legacy and not stray from the path even as the developers stray away from what makes this franchise special and turn their back on every principle set forth in the manifesto.

And by the way, entropy isn’t that inevitable at all. One can only break the laws of nature when one understands that they’re not set in stone.