Guild Wars 2

Rengaru.4730:

Devata.6589:

They should have simply gone for selling expansions to generate income in stead of selling gems but as long as people are foolish enough to buy in-game items for money you will keep having this problem.

The gem shop isn’ t inherently bad, there are lots of items I approve of (bank space, character slots, finishers, toys, etc.) and A-Net has to earn money some way or another.

What I don’t approve of is vertical progression, especially on gem store items.

I fear A-Net heavily underestimated the long term effects of short-changing their customers, (because thats essentially what they did to everyone who bought previous tools) and it will hurt them (and by extension, the players) in the long run.

But thats what I said, it depends on your play-style. You don’t like the vertical progression so don’t like the vertical progression items. I like horizontal progression (like those collections) so don’t like the horizontal items and how horizontal progression has bee turned into a gold-grind. It always (or almost always) effects the game in some part.

I also don’t like it if they make something ‘wrong’ in the game on purpose to then sell the fix in the gem-store. I am then referring to the fact that you need many more then 250 items of many items but the max you can stack is 250. Then they also suddenly introduce something people get stacks and stacks of. The problem is here that you can only stack 250.

So what do they do.. They sell a stack increaser. I am sorry but thats just extremely extremely extremely rude towards your customers.

There are indeed also some items in the gem-store I don’t have problems with like indeed character-slots.. however they should then have already included the number of slots as there are classes, but they didn’t. And will we get a free slot when they introduce a new race? I also don’t mind them selling something like a name changer and I would also be fine with them selling beta access. All things that are not really in the game.. Well the character is but you get the point.

The coin is still bad imho. The problem is that hard mode is not just skill based. When you do it without guide there are simply traps you are not able to see so it becomes trial and error. Thats why you pretty much needed that coin just to learn where the traps are. After that it becomes skill based.

And yes they need to make money. Thats why I said they should base there income on expansions. Of course if they can trick many people into buying a pick for the price of the game that might mean the profit is a little less but it does mean you can deliver a higher quality (because the goal is then, releasing a good expansion, not selling many gems) and the game will more likely have a longer future. This gem-tactic will work until even the people that can’t handle money notice they are getting squeezed out or until people get burned out from all the grinding. But expansions should be easily able to support the game and would work great if you want the game to run for many years. Want to squeeze out as much as you can and then move on then the cash-shop work best because there will be people that are letting them-self getting squeezed out while in the meanwhile being very proud of themselves because ‘they support this game’. Giving those gifts to Gem-buyers is a way to increase that feeling. It’s some very nice psychology we see here going on.

Devata.6589:

I also don’t like it if they make something ‘wrong’ in the game on peruse to then sell the fix in the gem-store. I am then referring to the fact that you need many more then 250 items of many items but the max you can stack is 250. Then they also suddenly introduce something people get stacks and stacks of. The problem is here that you can only stack 250.

I’m going to wager the stack size is a holdover from GW1, where the maximum stack size was 250. It’s only “wrong” because suddenly they introduced the stack expander. If they never had? It wouldn’t be “wrong” just “inconvenient”.

So what do they do.. They sell a stack increaser. I am sorry but thats just extremely extremely extremely rude towards your customers.

. . . and once more, I must note, we the players complained and were given this. We complained about stacks and stacks of stuff accumulating. They put a fix in the gem store since not everyone was experiencing the issue.

It’s not much more different than the “vault expansion”/“bank expansion” they used to sell. Well, no, it is different in that it’s a kitteneaper.

There are indeed also some items in the gem-store I don’t have problems with like indeed character-slots.. however they should then have already included the number of slots as there are classes, but they didn’t.

They didn’t do it in GW1 either, you had to buy more and there was a cap if I recall.

And will we get a free slot when they introduce a new race?

Check the magic 8-ball. Though the expansions for GW1 which introduced 2 new classes each time came with extra slots included. Given a new race is likely an expansion material rather than “Living World Huzzah!” . . . yeah, we’ll probably get a free slot.

The coin is still bad imho. The problem is that hard mode is not just skill based. When you do it without guide there are simply traps you are not able to see so it becomes trial and error. Thats why you pretty much needed that coin just to learn where the traps are. After that it becomes skill based.

And the Tribulation Mode was the ugliest addition to the game ever. It was completely over the top, unnecessary, and added nothing but frustration and a time sink. There was no reason for it to exist. None. Except, of course, the developer wanted to do it and saw no reason not to.

Honestly, I think it’s a learned rule when talking game design the question isn’t “why not?” it’s “why?”. But that’s another topic entirely.

And yes they need to make money. Thats why I said they should base there income on expansions.

This causes power creep and player fragmentation almost without a doubt. For each expansion they add, there’s another branching of the population so we have 2^x number of fragments going on of people who have a certain distribution of expansions. It’s a problem, and eventually runs into issues of “wait, before we add this 5th expansion what if they don’t have the first one?”.

But expansions should be easily able to support the game and would work great if you want the game to run for many years.

Yeah, I mean, WoW is still running and so is the granddaddy of modern MMOs, Everquest. Of course, both are subscription services if I recall right . . . on top of expansion-based.

In all seriousness, expansions have their own set of issues which become more complex and worse as you add more and more in. I already outlined the trouble of the players not necessarily having them all when the developers plot the expansions . . . the power creep which may set in is another issue which seems inexorably linked – this was notable in the first actual expansion for GW1 having some . . . intriguing power creep going on within it.

I thought guild wars 2 wasn’t into vertical progression, and here they are making even items that cost gems feel like they are obsolete because a better item is now available.

dAcIaW.5107:

I thought guild wars 2 wasn’t into vertical progression, and here they are making even items that cost gems feel like they are obsolete because a better item is now available.

This is what all the fuss is about. A simple sentence, which explains what the Gem Store was ‘not’ to be.

How many times this was stated pre-release I’ve lost count.

And for one reason or another it’s changed, and they aren’t going back.

Now what? Time to stop complaining and walk away. We got to this point because players stopped playing. THAT’S what effected the changes, not constant whining on the official forums.

Walk away. If enough people follow you, THEN you might see the changes you’re looking for.

chemiclord.3978:

And for one reason or another it’s changed, and they aren’t going back.

Now what? Time to stop complaining and walk away. We got to this point because players stopped playing. THAT’S what effected the changes, not constant whining on the official forums.

Walk away. If enough people follow you, THEN you might see the changes you’re looking for.

Trying to incite people into doing something drastic like leaving is not helpful or constructive.

I love Guild Wars and have no intention of leaving, but I am very unhappy about this pick and what it means. I purchased a molten pick and am currently unsure where I stand with the gem store. Do I buy something now and have to buy the same thing with a small improvement again in a month?

I do not throw away money needlessly and as it stands I can not trust the gem store. The only thing this fiasco has done has lost my custom, till they fix it I shall continue to play but not offer monetary support through the store.

Arena Net, please reply to your fans and explain the situation, you are not helping the issue by remaining silent.

The point is… what you are demonstrating is that you are still an emotionally invested customer. If you REALLY think that Arena.net is out to bleed your wallet dry, the only thing that behavior tells them is, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” It tells them that all they need to do is present the right thing and you’ll be sucking on their teat again.

And that’s what it really boils down to. If you think Arena.net is a bunch of liars that will dump on their customers to make a quick buck, this protesting does not stop them. Hell, if anything it ENCOURAGES them.

If you TRULY believe the buzzwords and the static being spit by this forum, your only answer to affect change is to leave. Because THAT’S the only way this company would believe you mean business.

Either the players’ rhetoric needs to change, or their behavior does. Because this entire “Arena.net hates us… but we’re gonna keep doing what they want!” isn’t helping.

chemiclord.3978

That is a little melodramatic do you not think? It is a `do what I want or a leave´ situation.

We are all passionate fans, leaving due to one extremely controversial store item does in no way remedy the situation. Games company’s do listen to constructive player feedback, for example the flamekissed armour not long ago. Telling people to leave is not constructive or helpful to Arena Net neither does it address players problems. Your posts if anything are perhaps against the spirit of the `Watchwork Pick: Non-inflammatory please´ topic.

I have hope we get a reply on Monday, the topic has gone too long without an official reply.

I have no desire to be inflammatory.

The problem here is players. They are overreacting (like usual). I am saying if you truly believe what is being uttered (that Arena.net is milking their fans with some “Pay 2 Win gem store treadmill”) then the correct response isn’t flooding their forums in protest. The correct response is leaving and hitting them where it counts (in their player numbers and by extension their wallets).

Because if Arena.net TRULY was the way that is being claimed, they wouldn’t give one rat’s kitten about this protest… because you’re still playing. Concurrency numbers are effectively money in an MMO, especially one with an in-game store. The more people playing, the more likely there is someone (and usually several someones) buying their stuff through said store.

Do you see what I’m trying to get at here?

The other option is that Arena.net ISN’T like that, that they either misread the interest or don’t agree that there any particular slippery slope is forthcoming. And if THAT’S true, then we as players need to tone down the rhetoric and buzzwords. Because if you’re a developer that wants to work with your fanbase, you are going to be a LOT less likely to listen to a bunch of children having temper tantrums.

It would be nice to get a reply from the devs, but I guess the earliest possible time for that is monday? They had tuesday to friday last week though. Kinda disappointed they haven’t said anything other than that the last thread was “inflammatory” and locking it.

@Mikuchan,
maybe because we are picketing the wrong sidewalk? Maybe it isn’t ANet we need to shake up, but NCSoft instead.

Just maybe they want a bunch of us to leave, so we hitch the ride next ride with Wildstar. Which would be just fine with them, they also publish that…

Maybe in a sense we should start to be smarter about this whole gaming business, and support the publishers/devs that do the right thing, instead of only looking at the dev’s.

I mean, I have been looking at this heartstone game. It looks pretty nifty for just a quick game now and then, but seeing it’s Blizzard. Well, I am reluctant to start a game which I already know will make me pay to have the best deck. Like, I may be crazy, but I’m not entirely stupid …

Maybe this ‘president’ that is created now isn’t really about the pick anymore, perhaps it’s the president that is created in regards to NCSoft games instead. If this is the way we can expect NCSoft games to turn out eventually, then it is clear that NCSoft games are not suitable for a certain part of the Western audience. Because now it is GW2, but in a year it will be Wildstar… and the year there after …

http://global.ncsoft.com/global/aboutus/visiongoals.aspx

Then again, I also do not see where this pick would align with any of the core values of NCSoft. Unless of course that whole page is just a bunch of marketing BS. The Pick sure as heck doesn’t seem to line up with anything that ANet ever said could even remotely possibly not even maybe see the light in GW. Unless of course, all that was said in the manifesto was how they wanted to be different from the rest, and now its just reality setting in…

Anyways, to me the whole thing is mostly disappointing, as it violates something that is easier lost then money, and harder to regain too. There isn’t even a monetary value to put on it, because of the very nature of the concept … it is the thing called ‘Trust’ … you can not buy it, as the very nature of buying trust would spell and cause distrust instead. You may be able to loose Trust on a silly little thing, you may have deemed irrelevant, and yet, moving entire mountain may not be enough to regain it. Quite simply because people have turned a blind eye to your efforts, as they no longer trust the motives behind them.

In essence the concept of ‘goodwill’ balances the concept of trust, doing trustworthy things will build up goodwill, and this makes it so that mistakes or errors don’t lead to ‘distrust’ automatically. Given of course the mistakes and errors are acknowledged and corrected. But there is a little catch behind this as well, we call it ‘learning from your mistakes’. See while you can redeem some of the trust and thus goodwill by doing the right thing after a mistake or error. If you keep on making the same mistakes, people start to loose trust as well. This Trust is perhaps even more important than the Trust that builds up goodwill. It’s also not the Trust in you doing the good thing, and keeping your word… It is the trust in the capability of earning trust. And somewhere it is somewhat strange that we don’t have a different word for this. Well maybe we have, it’s the very basis of where trust begins… it is ‘believe’. It is that thing that renders all efforts worthless, as people do not believe (in) you anymore to even be capable of producing what you say.

anyways, I’m drifting off, ‘goodwill, trust and believe’ things you do not want to take to lightly, and they cannot be bought, only earned. And once squandered you may not be able to redeem them…

I bought this pick using a bit less then 100g (in-game currency) how is this P2W? this thread is BAD and OP should feel BAD.

Gotta make sure each post adds to the infinite tool discussion instead of focusing on individual posts or people’s attitude.

That said, as more time goes by, I’m interested to see how much this will affect things. We’ll have to wait until sprockets are either sparse or gone from general PvE at the very least, but afterwards, I wonder how this will affect things. Post any firsthand feedback here! :]

Beyond people’s frustration and beyond people’s indignation, I wonder what will happen to the economy, the idea of elitism, the player population of the game (I sincerely hope this won’t change it that much), and any other unforeseeable consequences.

Also, the question arises: will ArenaNet consider using sprockets in other crafting recipes? (I’m ignoring the “precedent discussion” as this has been talked to death.) Would they reason that this pumps enough sprockets into the auction house to warrant new recipes? Very possible.

At this point in time, sprockets aren’t used for much. How would a new (really good) recipe affect the demand for sprockets? (Probably increase it.) So, would this warrant more sources of sprockets (assuming PvE sources are removed in the future)? I doubt we can truly know until we see the changes in sprocket availability, but it’s interesting to think about. As it stands right now, I doubt the node and the pick could keep up with real heavy demand for sprockets.

Or, would sprockets become an event resource like snowflakes and candy corn? Yearly Queen Jenna’s Jubilee, filled with sprocket-full machines for example. (And would this be enough to satisfy the hypothetical heavy demand?)

P.S. Staying on topic is good for you. Like milk. Helps you grow up big and strong.

And prevents moderators from locking the thread.

Arghore.8340:

@Mikuchan,
maybe because we are picketing the wrong sidewalk? Maybe it isn’t ANet we need to shake up, but NCSoft instead.

Regardless of who stands behind the decisions, ANet has the answers though.

I don’t consider this pay to win. But I do think it’s unfair to those who purchased the previous tools and believe those people will be less inclined to make future purchases from the gem store.

korelg.7862:

I bought this pick using a bit less then 100g (in-game currency) how is this P2W? this thread is BAD and OP should feel BAD.

I do not know how much time you spend on gaming, but the most gold i ever had, i have now… 40g …if i would have saved up every little bit, then yes, i may have been able to buy this pick now. but i wouldn’t have had the chest panes, 18slot bags on all my characters to store the piles of materials i will need to some day craft up to ascended weapons. And i would not have been able to transmute some of my items.

But more important, it’s not about the gold, nor is it about the gems or real money, it is about the concept that there is an item in the shop that is better than any other item with the same function. And to make matter worse, it makes all the other picks also in the shop obsolete. It is a kind of vertical progression in a monetary item that due to that very nature is worse than Ascended items and gear being added.

And for somebody like myself, that has been playing GW since the GW1 beta’s, because of it’s somewhat casual nature, and thus me being able to put the game down for an extended period of time, while i dealt with IRL stuff. To me it has to do with the fact that ‘we’ are still scraping the poop (that hit the fan) from the ascended walls. And now the same thing comes along again, but to make matters worse, it’s in the store instead.

And it’s not just this thing, it’s for example also the part where i continuously hit 1 on my keyboard while i wait for my other skills to recharge. And then be reminded of how Colin so righteously put ‘i swing my sword, and i swing it again’. Now i just wrote a long post just above here, and as a long time player and fan, there is a lot of goodwill, and having met various devs at Gamescom there is also a reasonable amount of trust. Where GW and ANet and NCSoft are sliding slowly away though, is believe.

I have a lot of goodwill to not be deterred by making mistakes, i have a reasonable amount of trust that they want to make a good game and are capable of doing so. But as you keep making the similar mistakes, and keep breaking your word. The portion where I believe in GW2 still being the game to play. And ANet & NCSoft the parties worthy of me spending my money. That is slipping, i feel that it is because of how i feel about this whole situation. I feel disappointment.

Disappointment isn’t an emotion linked to loosing trust, anger is the response to loss in trust. A reasonable amount of goodwill can temper that anger non the less… But like said above, if there is no clear reason to believe that anything is learned from the mistakes made. Then there is no foundation to believe in it getting anything better in the future. And what you are left with is disappointment, disappointment due to the realisation that all the trust and goodwill wont matter.

Let’s put it this way:
- GW2 took a guestimate of 60.000.000 to create (sixty million)
- GW2 sold 2.000.000 (two million times)
- The box prices for standard was $60 or so.
- This means that right of the bat they made 100% ROI = aka. 120.000.000 (hundred twenty million)

- So now lets assume ANet has 100 people working.
- They all ‘cost’ (average) 75.000 a year including taxes.
- That means a yearly cost of 7.500.000 a year (seven million, five hundred thousand)
- Lets add to that 2.500.000 (two and a halve million) for server costs, and just to be on the save side…
- that is a total of 10.000.000 a year (ten million)

- This means that all players in GW2 have to spend 5 (five) a year.
- I myself, spend 1400 gems worth of bank slots (2x) and transmutation stones (3x) and have yet to spend the 400gems i got from my reward chest.
- Assuming these gems were paid for by somebody else, as i used gold.
- Which surmounts to roughly 17,50
- Which is more than 3x the amount needed to keep going…

Where is the need to put a pick into the shop that has a 20% chance on some item, a few months after you done a sale that sold the exact same item without the 20%.

I mean, I am smart enough to understand how business works, I do not oppose to a value for money exchange where there is added value that turns into profit on the person selling the item. But there is none! And after the whole Ascended debate, where it should have been more than clear that ‘this’ kind of vertical progession (aka. a tread mill) is unacceptable to the community, and we excepted this in all goodwill as an honest mistake that would scrape a lot of work for no reason as long as it is clear this is NOT the way to move forward in the future. And THEN you try and do the same thing in the shop?! …

As my dad tends to say, you can walk over me ‘one’ time, but there is no walking back and forth. As i said, i have a lot of goodwill for all the mistakes that come up moving gaming forward, i have a lot of trust in ANet as far as capabilities go. But i am somewhat starting to doubt if i can believe anything they say or promise and their capability of learning from their mistakes.

I excuse myself if this is to emotionally charged, but it’s the honest way of how i feel, with some of the anger left out for obvious reasons

Buttercup.5871:

It became inflammatory because after 12 hours and thousands of reactions, not one dev cared to react. It didn’t help, in any event.

Sounds a bit like the reactions that forum posts received about the loot problems.

Was this item temporary like other picks in the past? I can totally see people getting up in arms about this because they promised us a better economy.

To me it’s the same old issues we’ve seen before. The economy in this game has been the worst I’ve ever experienced, and I’ve experienced the inflated nonsense from a single server with few farmers on other titles. I’ve also noticed that when it’s a touchy subject that generally they ignore it.

I fully expect next, to see a community manager of some type come on here and in a passive aggressive way make people think that it’s all in their heads as we’ve seen in every other major issue players have taken with the actions of this group. I sincerely hope not but I’m a bit of a realist when it comes to how these things are handled these days.

Didn’t someone in the past post that the economist involved in this game wasn’t from Arenanet but from NCsoft or was that a myth?

The best we can do is continue to keep ANet aware that this is an issue we are deeply concerned about, and that if they HAVE made a decision to keep the Watchwork Pick as it is and/or continue on this trend as before, then they need to let us know so we have closure and can move on/adjust buying behaviour appropriately. Time to deliberate your decision is all well and good, but keep us in the loop; if it goes on for too long then it starts to build resentment and a poisonous atmosphere of “they don’t care about us!” that feeds on itself.

I doubt they care. They hope the issue will die down, and it probably will.
It is still a filthy thing, and I hope they will feel the burn eventually.

chemiclord.3978:

I have no desire to be inflammatory.

The problem here is players. They are overreacting (like usual). I am saying if you truly believe what is being uttered (that Arena.net is milking their fans with some “Pay 2 Win gem store treadmill”) then the correct response isn’t flooding their forums in protest. The correct response is leaving and hitting them where it counts (in their player numbers and by extension their wallets).

Because if Arena.net TRULY was the way that is being claimed, they wouldn’t give one rat’s kitten about this protest… because you’re still playing. Concurrency numbers are effectively money in an MMO, especially one with an in-game store. The more people playing, the more likely there is someone (and usually several someones) buying their stuff through said store.

Do you see what I’m trying to get at here?

The other option is that Arena.net ISN’T like that, that they either misread the interest or don’t agree that there any particular slippery slope is forthcoming. And if THAT’S true, then we as players need to tone down the rhetoric and buzzwords. Because if you’re a developer that wants to work with your fanbase, you are going to be a LOT less likely to listen to a bunch of children having temper tantrums.

You give two choices: Leave or suck it up.

According to this, there is no need for feedback in any manner from the players for any topic besides binary. Play or don’t.

Binary feedback is metrics, and developers or really any business needs more than just metrics to formulate successful business plans and to meet the needs of their customers.

dAcIaW.5107:

I thought guild wars 2 wasn’t into vertical progression, and here they are making even items that cost gems feel like they are obsolete because a better item is now available.

I feel that way also…

rogerwilko.6895:

I doubt they care. They hope the issue will die down, and it probably will.
It is still a filthy thing, and I hope they will feel the burn eventually.

I sure hope it won’t but we will see…

The point for me is that we need to firm and don’t let them do things like that without a fuss. It is their company and game but it won’t last if they make us leave because we got sick of what some people do.

killcannon.2576:

You give two choices: Leave or suck it up.

And lots of people in this thread who are bothered tend to leap for one of two characterizations of people not going for pitchforks: blind fanboys who defend ANet while they drown puppies, or idiots who can’t tie their own shoes without being reminded this thread is about pay-to-win.

While more sane individuals here keep saying it’s not about that but about what might happen in the future. In turn, this is often rooted in assumption of either incompetence or malice on this item, from what I keep reading here. There’s wild extrapolations which don’t make any sense (“a tool which has a 100% to generate ectos!”) mixed in with what is a legitimate concern.

If you’re wondering why they’re not responding, it’s probably because there isn’t anything they could begin to add on this which wouldn’t result in an incredible crap-storm. First, they’d have to acknowledge the item exists, then either say “it’s fine as it is” or “we’ll be removing it” and in either case the storm is going to get bigger and louder.

In essence it’s my opinion they’re not answering because there is no answer they could give which wouldn’t make this worse. And they realize it, while having read the concerns, and decide to just let actions (that is, not doing this again) speak louder.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

You give two choices: Leave or suck it up.

And lots of people in this thread who are bothered tend to leap for one of two characterizations of people not going for pitchforks: blind fanboys who defend ANet while they drown puppies, or idiots who can’t tie their own shoes without being reminded this thread is about pay-to-win.

While more sane individuals here keep saying it’s not about that but about what might happen in the future. In turn, this is often rooted in assumption of either incompetence or malice on this item, from what I keep reading here. There’s wild extrapolations which don’t make any sense (“a tool which has a 100% to generate ectos!”) mixed in with what is a legitimate concern.

If you’re wondering why they’re not responding, it’s probably because there isn’t anything they could begin to add on this which wouldn’t result in an incredible crap-storm. First, they’d have to acknowledge the item exists, then either say “it’s fine as it is” or “we’ll be removing it” and in either case the storm is going to get bigger and louder.

In essence it’s my opinion they’re not answering because there is no answer they could give which wouldn’t make this worse. And they realize it, while having read the concerns, and decide to just let actions (that is, not doing this again) speak louder.

If they decide to take no action, that’s fine by me, it’s not game breaking or fundamentally affects how I play the game.

But….we shouldn’t try to shut down opinions or feedback from people who are giving it in order for Anet to possibly make a more informed decision in the future concerning Gem Store items and how they make the player base feel towards the game.

Let em speak their mind as long as it makes basic sense.

killcannon.2576:

Let em speak their mind as long as it makes basic sense.

I don’t mind them making sense – as I’ve said, fear of this precedent being leveraged is not out of line, nor unworthy of being heard.

It’s the assumptions of it necessarily becoming worse I find more annoying.

. . . also the fact we’re talking about a resource for which there’s sources available to anyone who completed the meta this last two weeks, and is implied heavily on being a recurring option.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

Let em speak their mind as long as it makes basic sense.

I don’t mind them making sense – as I’ve said, fear of this precedent being leveraged is not out of line, nor unworthy of being heard.

It’s the assumptions of it necessarily becoming worse I find more annoying.

. . . also the fact we’re talking about a resource for which there’s sources available to anyone who completed the meta this last two weeks, and is implied heavily on being a recurring option.

A not horribly unjust assumption would be that if no one said anything about being upset or that there might be a slippery slope is that Anet (or whomever is ultimately in charge of monetization)would think the entire player base liked it (or had no issue with it) and would therefor go further down this road of added functionality to gem store items. Based on metrics as well, of course. If X item sold Z amount of units, we should try item Y to see if we can sell Z+100 amount of units.

Not going to discuss again about whether or not it’s a form of pay to win. Perception will trump definition in individual cases, so it’s pointless.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s the assumptions of it necessarily becoming worse I find more annoying.

Businesses are always pushing the envelope. To say that assumptions of this worsening is without merit is to ignore at least 50 years of modern marketing, if not the entirety of marketing since its inception.

Since Gaile has suggested that the Black Lion Trading Company Forum is the best place to continue to discuss this topic (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Infinite-Gathering-Tools-Some-Info-for-you/first#post3578602), I suggest we do so there. There are already several threads on the first page of that forum on this topic, so take your pick.

Gene Archer.8560:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s the assumptions of it necessarily becoming worse I find more annoying.

Businesses are always pushing the envelope. To say that assumptions of this worsening is without merit is to ignore at least 50 years of modern marketing, if not the entirety of marketing since its inception.

Don’t put words in my mouth, I didn’t say without merit. I never said without merit . . . I said I find it annoying and intriguing that jump is made.

killcannon.2576:

You give two choices: Leave or suck it up.

According to this, there is no need for feedback in any manner from the players for any topic besides binary. Play or don’t.

Binary feedback is metrics, and developers or really any business needs more than just metrics to formulate successful business plans and to meet the needs of their customers.

That is NOT what I said at all.

I said if you look at the inflammatory accusations that have been slung around in regards to this one item on the gemstore, and you honestly believe Arena.net has become this company that is just looking to milk their customers’ wallets and don’t care at all what those customer’s think… then the only thing Arena.net WILL listen to is people walking away.

But if you DON’T think Arena.net has become that sort of company, and is just making a potentially huge mistake, then throwing that sort of slander at them isn’t going to make them particularly willing to engage the player base on this issue (or any issue down the road). Would YOU want to deal with a child throwing a temper tantrum?

So if you want to sum it up a simply as you did, it’s either “leave or take it down a notch.”

Gaile Gray.6029:

Sorry for my misinformation earlier. I amended my post, as per the request of the forum team. Thanks.

It doesnt matter anyways in which forum we post as we got zip feedback on the issues that have been discussed in either one of them.
Even though you commented a couple of times here and in the account issues forum, your posts were only giving advice on where to post about this.
Dont get me wrong, I dont expect you to comment on these issues as I dont think it is your responsibility as Liason.
Personally I also have some reservations about the introduction of the watchwork pick but the bigger issue for me is the lack of communication on this (or any other related topic in the BLTC Forum) from you guys, which has blown this discussion way out of porportion across the board.

Wanze.8410:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Sorry for my misinformation earlier. I amended my post, as per the request of the forum team. Thanks.

It doesnt matter anyways in which forum we post as we got zip feedback on the issues that have been discussed in either one of them.
Even though you commented a couple of times here and in the account issues forum, your posts were only giving advice on where to post about this.
Dont get me wrong, I dont expect you to comment on these issues as I dont think it is your responsibility as Liason.
Personally I also have some reservations about the introduction of the watchwork pick but the bigger issue for me is the lack of communication on this (or any other related topic in the BLTC Forum) from you guys, which has blown this discussion way out of porportion across the board.

This.

I know what they’re coming from though, as I work in the game industry. What I frequently saw is that the marketing department comes up with some new ways to monetize the game. The designers raise red flags but are forced to implement it anyway (you see this a lot, conflict between marketing team vs design team, but from my personal experience, marketing always wins). Anyway, in my experience, marketing always feels as if they don’t need to account to anything. Even if the community is in uproar, they’ll stay silent. Instead, they’ll convince management that it are just some loud troublemakers on the forums. And they will ONLY let metrics govern their future decisions – so as long as it keeps making money, they’ll do it again and again.

Some of those marketing guys even told me straight in my face that it is good that some players quit over such things, as they are always non-paying users or users that pay little, and the game is better off without such players as they only cost bandwidth and CPU cycles. They only aim to please the people that drop 50+ bucks per month on the game. Anyway, that particular game died, partially due to its aggressive monetization and marketing interference in all the design decisions. The company collapsed a few months ago and was bought out by another party. Luckily I already saw that coming and quit that company 2 years ago.

Now this story comes from the F2P mobile gaming segment and GW2 fortunately operates in a different segment. But the story isn’t unique to F2P. There was another company I was involved with before that, and this was the result of their repeated marketing screw-ups:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/07/monocles/

“There is a pretty overwhelming perception amongst EVE players that these changes are bad,” he added. “I think they’re brilliant, but our players don’t. We’re going to face an uphill struggle, and the reason many of us never talk about this publicly is that we’d be burned at the stake by the players.”

followed by
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10/05/ccp-games-ceo-issues-letter-of-apology-to-eve-online-players/

So yeah. Don’t hold your breath if you expect an ArenaNet response on this. Marketing likely wouldn’t allow it. The only thing you can do is well, not buy any more gems so you show up in their metrics, and loudly state on the forum WHY you’re no longer dropping money on this game. Maybe organize an in-game riot or two if you really want to accomplish anything.

Would you prefer :
a) If they release the same Picks , at the vendor for 50 silver = 75 uses
Doing 7 dailies achiv , you get the same pick for 250 uses
And keep the Black Market Pick as it is ?

or b) Change the efect to > 20% while minning to summon an dreghe or earth elemental > chance to drop a BoP new skin ?

Or some kind of major goldsink

Edit: Or chance for pets , or the Black Market Chest Keys

Shakkara.2641:

The only thing you can do is well, not buy any more gems so you show up in their metrics, and loudly state on the forum WHY you’re no longer dropping money on this game. Maybe organize an in-game riot or two if you really want to accomplish anything.

Great post.

So yeah. If the player base is so heated- let’s organize an in-game demonstration. See what numbers turn up. Once we actually have a visual representation of players organized this could actually go somewhere. If we filled a whole LA to overflow capacity of gem store disgruntled people, we might actually flag attention.

Riot Day In LA anybody?

Hey Gaile,

Just want to let you know, for many others and myself this type of vertical progression is A-OK. It’s much better than say furthering item tiers with Ascended stats, which has a profound impact on WvW and how future PVE content will be designed.

Please ignore the vocal minority, as this new pick has literally ZERO pay2win impact, as it does not affect WvW/Dungeons/or Fractals in any way and gives people a good incentive to accumulate gold.

Look forward to seeing more exciting items in the gemshop.

Justice.3608:

Hey Gaile,

Just want to let you know, for many others and myself this type of vertical progression is A-OK. It’s much better than say furthering item tiers with Ascended stats, which has a profound impact on WvW and how future PVE content will be designed.

Please ignore the vocal minority, as this new pick has literally ZERO pay2win impact, as it does not affect WvW/Dungeons/or Fractals in any way and gives people a good incentive to accumulate gold.

Look forward to seeing more exciting items in the gemshop.

Funny right. Thats what I was talking about before and in the micro-transaction thread.

It all depends on what is your personal game-play element. An MMORPG has so many it’s not one group of players with the same style.

The focus on the cash-shop has from day one been a problem for the more RPG players (those that like to go into the world to do quest, collect mini’s and so on). And for them it only became worse (big part of that group might have already left the game because of that reason, and that might also mean Anet did see sales on normal picks drops so went for the next step??).

This added stat to the pick hurts mainly the grinders. Those people who like to go in to the world and like to grind for materials and such.

But this does not yet hurt the combat. What is obviously Justice’s main game-play. He won’t lose a kill about it so it’s no problem for him. It would require real P2W items for him to get upset.

Oow and because it usually only hits only one group it always seems to hurt a minority. Except when you combine the groups.

The group thats best of in GW2 (at this moment) are the combat players and that might be the biggest group of players but at the same time it might also the group that (in general in GW2) buys the least items from the cash shop. What makes sense because all the stuff in there does not matter for there game-play.

I like to do all types of the game-play and many will but most people have the element they do or prefer most.

It was P2W as soon as the first picks were introduced. This is just the next logical progression as I pointed out when they were first introduced 6 months ago.

Anyone who is acting surprised about this has clearly not been paying attention to the trend this game has been taking over the last year.

Aww, and I got all excited to see a red post in this thread.

@Tobias: I agree that the “slippery slope” arguments are all conjecture at the moment, but I remain convinced that, having set this precedent, ANet will now have to maintain or exceed what the unlimited tools can offer for future versions, because otherwise players will now see it as being “of lesser value”, and just won’t buy it. Since the Watchwork Pick is objectively better than the Molten Pick, who would ever buy the Molten Pick again if they re-release it?

Looking over some of the more recent post has made me come to a conclusion. That Anet is following in the foot steps of other giant company’s. Company’s like AOL, Blockbuster, Circuit City, Kodak, yahoo, etc.

The player base has spoken we are not happy with the direction the game has gone in and continues to go in. We have not only spoken on these forums but with our wallets also.

It’s obvious gem store sells have slipped that’s why they feel the need to charge extra for more storage, charge extra to re trait on the fly or to remove upgrades from items. These types of things are commonly found in MMO’s for free and are only cash options in F2P mmo’s which this game is not. Most recently they have been testing the water with P2W items such as the new mining pick. Which at the moment is extremely minor but what happens when sells continue to drop? How long before they start putting up full armor sets or perhaps weapons. Maybe they decided to limit how many dungons you can run per day like some other MMO’s. Unless you buy a pass that gives you a week of unlimited runs?

At this point we have spoken and Anet has chosen to ignore us. Sadly where at the point of no return this is there answer to sagging sales and unhappy customers. Then its time to pick up roots and move on. Protesting in game isnt going to fix the issue. Really posting on these forums will do nothing more then warn new comers to avoid the game.

Zaxares.5419:

Aww, and I got all excited to see a red post in this thread.

@Tobias: I agree that the “slippery slope” arguments are all conjecture at the moment, but I remain convinced that, having set this precedent, ANet will now have to maintain or exceed what the unlimited tools can offer for future versions, because otherwise players will now see it as being “of lesser value”, and just won’t buy it. Since the Watchwork Pick is objectively better than the Molten Pick, who would ever buy the Molten Pick again if they re-release it?

I would. I like the animation.

zenleto.6179:

Zaxares.5419:

Aww, and I got all excited to see a red post in this thread.

@Tobias: I agree that the “slippery slope” arguments are all conjecture at the moment, but I remain convinced that, having set this precedent, ANet will now have to maintain or exceed what the unlimited tools can offer for future versions, because otherwise players will now see it as being “of lesser value”, and just won’t buy it. Since the Watchwork Pick is objectively better than the Molten Pick, who would ever buy the Molten Pick again if they re-release it?

I would. I like the animation.

The animation is the reason I bought the Molten Pick in the first place. Or rather, it’s the thing which cemented the purchase.

Fair enough. For me, the animation was a nice bonus (and I do think it looks better than the Bone Pick. The Watchwork Pick is about as appealing as the Molten Pick to me in terms of aesthetics), but the major reason I bought it was so I wouldn’t need to bother with buying mining picks ever again. Or bother with swapping pcks in higher/lower level zones.

Considering the Watchwork Pick can do this AND give me extra goodies into the bargain, if I ever needed to equip new alts with picks, I’d be buying the Watchwork Pick, not the Molten one.

Why are people so up in arms about this? This is no more P2W then someone buying a bunch of gems and converting it to gold so they can buy a legendary weapon. Or people buying boosters so they can go through the game or get WvW ranks faster. Just farm gold and convert it to gems, that’s my plan.

Zaxares.5419:

Fair enough. For me, the animation was a nice bonus (and I do think it looks better than the Bone Pick. The Watchwork Pick is about as appealing as the Molten Pick to me in terms of aesthetics), but the major reason I bought it was so I wouldn’t need to bother with buying mining picks ever again. Or bother with swapping pcks in higher/lower level zones.

Considering the Watchwork Pick can do this AND give me extra goodies into the bargain, if I ever needed to equip new alts with picks, I’d be buying the Watchwork Pick, not the Molten one.

Fair enough also. I have no problem with this point of view which is why I’ve pretty much stayed out of the conversation. I only buy these things for aesthetics. The Bone Pick doesn’t match any of my alt army so its stayed in the shop. Same with the Halloween thing. I’ve already got sprockets coming out of every orifice so the addition of their collection is more annoying than anything else. If they were all ugly I wouldn’t but any of them.

Arcs.6497:

You know, newer items should be better than the past.

No, they shouldn’t. It’s already bad with the gear treadmill in the game (ascended). Introducing one in the gemshop is adding insult to the injury.

chemiclord.3978:

The problem here is players.

No, the problem here is the people that designed watchwork pick and okayed it’s introduction into the gemshop. Players are not to blame for that – do not try to shift responsibility on them.

Though i agree that people should stop with all the p2w outrage. It only muddles the real issue here.

The game has been pay to win for over a year now.

I’m not really sure why people are choosing this to complain about compared to say:

the crippling diminishing returns and abysmal drop rates for trying to farm anything that even looks like T6.

or that there are people who have literally just converted cash to gems to gold to buy a legendary outright,

if you look at the design decisions, its always more grind, more gold focused to promote people buying gold.

they aren’t going to stop the monetization train now, i think this is the patch when you can just pay for spvp as glory is gone, just think about that, they are changing the currency you earn through participating and wining to the one you can buy with your credit card.

that’s the direction of the game, you wont get them to change the pick. at best you will get additions to the others that yield azurite or pristine spores and similar for all the old event items that become unobtainable.

Astralporing.1957:

No, the problem here is the people that designed watchwork pick and okayed it’s introduction into the gemshop. Players are not to blame for that – do not try to shift responsibility on them.

Though i agree that people should stop with all the p2w outrage. It only muddles the real issue here.

The problem is ENTIRELY player-side. 100% on us. WE buy this kitten. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t keep seeing it.

It is NOT Arena.net responsibility to say, “Oh? You want to give us money for this? Naaaaah. What do you think we are? A company that is supposed to make money?”

Look in the mirror. Players are the problem.

And ya know what… the entire “buy a legendary thing?” Guess what… if someone was willing to give you approximately $1000 for a weapon skin… something tells me you wouldn’t say “No.”

I’m hoping “riots” aren’t needed to make the point that this is an extremely bad idea and needs to be backed out.

It’s a small thing, really, but that’s exactly how it started in LOTRO. Now the LOTRO Store is loaded with P2W items, including many they specifically promised would never appear there, such as armor. You can also buy special items and skills there now that give advantages in PvMP.

Now I can’t stand the game I loved for five years and cannot bring myself to ever log in again.

Please, PLEASE, don’t do such a terrible thing to Guild Wars 2. It’s the only MMO I have left.

PLEASE turn back now. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.