Currently, items that require sprockets to craft need 250 sprockets (for “superior” items). Cogs will work the same way, there will be items that require 250 cogs to craft.
The drop rate of cogs will be lower than the drop rate of sprockets.
Anet will introduce a (Limited Time Only!!) gathering sickle that has 20% chance of popping out cogs.
Two weeks after that, we get “widgets.”
They will move one step at a time. Each step will be small, but there’s no mistaking where they’re going.
It’s really a pity to read all these posts using some watered down straw man definition of “pay to win” then claiming GW2 is pay to win because it violates their straw man definition.
It’s really a pity to read all these posts using some watered down straw man definition of “pay to win” then claiming GW2 is pay to win because it violates their straw man definition.
It’s really a pity that even though GW2 is one of the most blatantly P2W MMO’s on the market that people keep using various straw man arguments to claim it isn’t P2W every time a new P2W item is introduced into the gem store.
So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.
I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.
I’m not going to play a game that renders all my efforts useless and keeps me on an endless treadmill to nowhere, especially not if this endless threadmill keeps milking me of my money. I play Guild Wars 2 because I thought it’d not have endless vertical progression and planned obsolescence. GW1 was king at this. And I’ll be up on the barricades to make sure that GW2 will eventually live up to its legacy and not stray from the path even as the developers stray away from what makes this franchise special and turn their back on every principle set forth in the manifesto.
And by the way, entropy isn’t that inevitable at all. One can only break the laws of nature when one understands that they’re not set in stone.
Yes, I too oppose the mandate that we ride a power curve. I still count that the worst decision by Anet to date. Entropy, I suppose, is only inevitable if you consider the universe a closed system. I believe that, even if that is true, order is free to increase in any corner where it is sought. And, furthermore, I see the opposition to entropy as being, perhaps, the singular vocation of humans.
Standing against entropy isn’t humanities vocation or calling. We are mere victims of it. The problem requires us to go beyond ourselves.
The beginning of which is to concede we are powerless against entropy.
It’s really a pity to read all these posts using some watered down straw man definition of “pay to win” then claiming GW2 is pay to win because it violates their straw man definition.
It’s really a pity that even though GW2 is one of the most blatantly P2W MMO’s on the market that people keep using various straw man arguments to claim it isn’t P2W every time a new P2W item is introduced into the gem store.
Yes, thank you, a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You nailed it, I appreciate that. Anyone that actually played a P2W game knows exactly what I’m talking about… buying special ships and ammo for example that you can only get with real cash and are twice as powerful (or more) than anything available in the game… you actually pay to win in PvP. So few people either remember what pay to win actually was or they’ve never even seen it at all and use the term in games like this where it doesn’t even remotely apply, and even worse are the people that actually do know what pay to win really means and they deliberately use the term out of context in order to evoke the emotional response tied to the stigma of the “P2W” label.
Although you did lay it on a bit thick with the “most blatantly P2W MMO’s on the market” comment I definitely appreciate you backing me up with your example. It was brilliant. It’s a timeless argument.
Keep in mind there was an achievement where you could get a mining node for these in your home instance. This is more along the lines of P2Lazy imo.
As another justification, take me. I was on holiday for most of the duration of the associated LS – finishing it is literally impossible (not enough days for the daily achievements) and so I don’t have the node that the rest of you have. Luckily I am now able to permanently acquire [free] sprockets by another means. Yes, in reality it should be tough luck but it’s nice to not be left out in the cold. They are also quite expensive and I would venture to say that not as many as you would imagine were purchased – they shouldn’t upset the market too much.
Auroraglade Epistemic.8013: Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these
wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working.
“If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.”
As previously stated it is possible to get a sprocket node in your home instance by completing achievements. Therefore the pickaxe is not the only way to acquire sprockets after Scarlet disappears.
Auroraglade Epistemic.8013: Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these
wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working.
As previously stated it is possible to get a sprocket node in your home instance by completing achievements. Therefore the pickaxe is not the only way to acquire sprockets after Scarlet disappears.
Further, since you can convert gold to gems, it’s not exclusive in it’s means of obtainment. You can get one without spending a cent if you want one so badly.
Best way to prove it’s a bad idea, is to boycott the new pick. If no body buys it, they’ll most likely not pull this kind of stunt again.
I pretty sure that’s what got us the pick to start with. Sagging gem store sells so instead of fixing the things players don’t like. Things like the living story and the fact everything is a gem store exclusive lately. I have a feeling if Gem store sells continue to decline they will continue to release more outlandish P2W items. Until they ultimately destroy the player base leaving a few to play.
As previously stated it is possible to get a sprocket node in your home instance by completing achievements. Therefore the pickaxe is not the only way to acquire sprockets after Scarlet disappears.
Further, since you can convert gold to gems, it’s not exclusive in it’s means of obtainment. You can get one without spending a cent if you want one so badly.
Time is money. If you have an income in real life, trading gold for gems is the worse solution. If I go working for 1h and trade gems for gold I get at least 4x as much gold as farming for one hour. And its not even a well paid job.
1st person worldwide to reach 35,000 achievement points.
Time is money. If you have an income in real life, trading gold for gems is the worse solution. If I go working for 1h and trade gems for gold I get at least 4x as much gold as farming for one hour. And its not even a well paid job.
Real cash should be the most efficient way to acquire gems. This is a business, after all.
The fact that you have the option to spend your recreational time acquiring recreational pixels is an added bonus, that also protects the game from being P2W.
I bought the new pick before I knew it gave sprockets because I wanted one of each style. I have all of the previous endless harvesting tools and this just means one less item to transfer between characters when I get on an alt.
I just wish they put a way to get Azurite orbs back into the game. I have loads of the crystals now thanks to fractals, but I can’t transmorgify them into orbs like the rest of the gems. If they added azurite into the normal mithril/ori nodes in the open world, would people care if the molten pick gave an extra chance to get azurite?
The cash-shop in GW2 is run by the same person that ran the (in)famous Maplestory cash-shop.
If you’re interested in what items we may yet see in the cash-shop, check out this youtube video.
If you think the new harvesting tool is over the top, check this kitten out. Yeah…
It’s really a pity to read all these posts using some watered down straw man definition of “pay to win” then claiming GW2 is pay to win because it violates their straw man definition.
It’s really a pity that even though GW2 is one of the most blatantly P2W MMO’s on the market that people keep using various straw man arguments to claim it isn’t P2W every time a new P2W item is introduced into the gem store.
Yes, thank you, a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You nailed it, I appreciate that. Anyone that actually played a P2W game knows exactly what I’m talking about… buying special ships and ammo for example that you can only get with real cash and are twice as powerful (or more) than anything available in the game… you actually pay to win in PvP. So few people either remember what pay to win actually was or they’ve never even seen it at all and use the term in games like this where it doesn’t even remotely apply, and even worse are the people that actually do know what pay to win really means and they deliberately use the term out of context in order to evoke the emotional response tied to the stigma of the “P2W” label.
Although you did lay it on a bit thick with the “most blatantly P2W MMO’s on the market” comment I definitely appreciate you backing me up with your example. It was brilliant. It’s a timeless argument.
. . . you must have read a different post than I did, he was mocking your post by inverting it.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
The cash-shop in GW2 is run by the same person that ran the (in)famous Maplestory cash-shop.
If you’re interested in what items we may yet see in the cash-shop, check out this youtube video.
If you think the new harvesting tool is over the top, check this kitten out. Yeah…
Get used to it folks.
Wow. Just… Wow. That’s intense.
It’s extremely hilarious and scary at the same time.
It’s really a pity to read all these posts using some watered down straw man definition of “pay to win” then claiming GW2 is pay to win because it violates their straw man definition.
It’s really a pity that even though GW2 is one of the most blatantly P2W MMO’s on the market that people keep using various straw man arguments to claim it isn’t P2W every time a new P2W item is introduced into the gem store.
Yes, thank you, a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You nailed it, I appreciate that. Anyone that actually played a P2W game knows exactly what I’m talking about… buying special ships and ammo for example that you can only get with real cash and are twice as powerful (or more) than anything available in the game… you actually pay to win in PvP. So few people either remember what pay to win actually was or they’ve never even seen it at all and use the term in games like this where it doesn’t even remotely apply, and even worse are the people that actually do know what pay to win really means and they deliberately use the term out of context in order to evoke the emotional response tied to the stigma of the “P2W” label.
Although you did lay it on a bit thick with the “most blatantly P2W MMO’s on the market” comment I definitely appreciate you backing me up with your example. It was brilliant. It’s a timeless argument.
. . . you must have read a different post than I did, he was mocking your post by inverting it.
I know, I went for the counter-invert. Was feeling a little froggy.
Well, you guys can all quit playing now. I have amassed 2 billion Watchwork Sprockets and have now won the game.
You all lose. I win.
It’s not about sprockets. It was never about sprockets.
Why do you people continue to ignore this? Why do you continue to blatantly ignore this? If all you want to do is troll, leave this thread. Please.
All P2W arguments are exclusively about sprockets. Those people don’t understand that winning has nothing to do with sprockets, nor can sprockets help you win. I’m just humorously pointing that out there. You cannot pay to win in Guild Wars 2. Period.
The vertical progression argument is separate and may have merit.
All P2W arguments are exclusively about sprockets. Those people don’t understand that winning has nothing to do with sprockets, nor can sprockets help you win. I’m just humorously pointing that out there. You cannot pay to win in Guild Wars 2. Period.
I will take a moment point out that the most common form of pvp in Guild Wars 2 occurs in the form of making transactions on the trading post.
A pick which generates a resource at a rate which is vastly greater than any other source in the game allows users to monopolise supply of the resource. I am repeating myself now, but one can’t compare a pick which harvests sprockets 20% of the time from mining nodes to a time gated home instance sprocket node which isn’t even owned by all of the playerbase.
This pick has plenty of potential to be “pay to win” in terms of trading and the economy. The most dangerous aspect is the precedent which has been set, and indeed the vertical progression, but that doesn’t mean it is the only distasteful aspect of this scenario.
Whether sprockets are worthless or not is not the issue. They are an economic resource and the biggest portion of their supply has been placed into the hands of people who directly or indirectly paid money for the privilege.
Your argument is akin to saying the money in your wallet right now isn’t really yours.
No; his argument is akin to saying converting gold to gems is akin to allowing someone to buy the item for you in exchange for your time. Which is entirely accurate.
p2w is here and always has been since the game launched. But now they are molding content around the cash store so you feel like you have to buy gems/gold to keep up. I am actually for having a cash store and don’t really care about the gem to gold transfers. I don’t care if someone wants to spend real money to buy a legendary, the option I actually think is good for the game since those with the money will buy it from an outside source anyways. That on its own I don’t think bothers most people. I think most would agree with me if its just a shortcut like when the game started then its not a big deal.
Making a BiS QoL item exclusive to the cash store most could live with also because it was just a QoL item. It did not give any special bonus better than the old BiS item that can be bought in game and the cost of the tool in gold→gems will take most players years of use to break even. All it does is save a trip to the merchant every now and then and has a neat animation.The new pick adds a bonus not found anywhere else in game and is only accessible in the cash store. This is a horrible precedent to set. The next thing will have a different better bonus only available from the item in the cash store and the next one and so on and so on.
The highly profitable sprocket market has a new kingpin! In 3,000 years you will all tremble in awe at my sprocket castle made of solid gold! And then I can declare myself the winner of GW2!
All because you fools chose to bicker on the forums and left me to very very slowly gather items, worth a whole 30c, one at a time. HAHAHAHA!
The highly profitable sprocket market has a new kingpin! In 3,000 years you will all tremble in awe at my sprocket castle made of solid gold! And then I can declare myself the winner of GW2!
All because you fools chose to bicker on the forums and left me to very very slowly gather items, worth a whole 30c, one at a time. HAHAHAHA!
“Watchwork Pick: Non-inflammatory please”
Do you honestly think your post is not provocative? Or are you and several others actively trying to get another Watchwork Pick topic locked?
The pick is a legitimate concern, how would any of your feel if we had a 2000 gem pick that had a 20% chance to drop an ecto? The pick sets a prescience and the potential of what can be made in the future is something to be worried about.
The best thing Arena Net can do is remove the bonus and offer an apology and refund to those that choose it. Not that they have to give a refund, the pick was not advertised to have a bonus anyway.
“I am Evon Gnashblade and this message is acceptable to me.”
The pick is a legitimate concern, how would any of your feel if we had a 2000 gem pick that had a 20% chance to drop an ecto? The pick sets a prescience and the potential of what can be made in the future is something to be worried about.
The best thing Arena Net can do is remove the bonus and offer an apology and refund to those that choose it. Not that they have to give a refund, the pick was not advertised to have a bonus anyway.
This is what is called a “slippery slope argument.” There’s a reason WHY they are not considered a viable logical argument for debate. It takes facts, then gradually strips away what makes them fact to support a conclusion not in evidence.
The only precedent that has been set is that there is an mining pick that can give you sprockets with each strike.
I didn’t agree with a lot of posters in the thread that was closed, but I do understand the concerns. Since I don’t really care about the extra sprockets (I have the home node), I thought this might work as an alternative:
Modify all ore nodes to include sprockets as a “jewel”. Include it in the list and leave the jewel chances the same.
— everyone, new, old, indifferent, will have chances at getting them. The home node should still drive enough supply to keep the prices reasonable and a fair amount of supply continually in game. I would imagine the prices staying less than most lower tier gemstones, which, to me, is reasonable.
Modify the new watchwork pick to be instead, a 20% increase in extra resources, which stacks with the gathering booster, or not, depending on how the gathering booster works with guild banners.
— this still provides 1. the “extra” incentive that most think might have been the point of the new pick’s properties, and 2. an incentive that already exists through other means and is consistent with other items in the gem store and in the game. It also shouldn’t unduly affect players that choose not to buy it.
While I’m not sure if it’s possible, this is a very reasonable way to solve the issue some people have with the pick. On the other hand, the players who have the pick can still get sprockets.
The pick is a legitimate concern, how would any of your feel if we had a 2000 gem pick that had a 20% chance to drop an ecto? The pick sets a prescience and the potential of what can be made in the future is something to be worried about.
The best thing Arena Net can do is remove the bonus and offer an apology and refund to those that choose it. Not that they have to give a refund, the pick was not advertised to have a bonus anyway.
This is the exact rational that makes this entire thing ridiculous. What you, and most other people are doing, in their opposition of the item is called a slippery slope argument.
And that is a known logical fallacy. Here is some reading material: http://goo.gl/Txni
Summarized,
“A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.”
There is no warrant in this argument because its already been proven the effect of the items is insignificant. When boosters were first announced the game was dubbed pay to win. Then the player base at large came to realize their effects overall impact was insignificant.
The same thing happened when it was revealed there would be a currency exchange. Which would cause a landslide of people buying legendaries which would give those players a significant advantage in WvW with the ascended upgrade and….ad nauseum. It never happened en masse.
This pick and the complaints around it demonstrate that fallacy to perfection. Its broken logic and a flaw in reasoning.
How many Guild Wars 2 players does it take to change a light bulb?
None. Guild Wars 2 players are too busy complaining that the light bulb can only be acquired through buying it in the gem store and cannot be acquired in game.
The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.
The process is fairly evident to many of us, I think.
Anet wants money —> release a gem store item.
Anet wants more money --> release a better gem store item so that people will purchase again
No one complains —> Anet assumes this is an acceptable practice
Anet wants more money --> rinse and repeat
So long as Anet wants to make more money, and selling new, upgraded versions of items every few months makes money, they will have the incentive to fall down that slippery slope. The complaints are not attempting to say that this one, single item is the end of the world, but to put its creators on notice that continuing in this direction would be unwelcome. Letting them know that before things get truly bad is the goal, while there is still time for such feedback to influence any plans they might have.
The pick is a legitimate concern, how would any of your feel if we had a 2000 gem pick that had a 20% chance to drop an ecto? The pick sets a prescience and the potential of what can be made in the future is something to be worried about.
The best thing Arena Net can do is remove the bonus and offer an apology and refund to those that choose it. Not that they have to give a refund, the pick was not advertised to have a bonus anyway.
This is the exact rational that makes this entire thing ridiculous. What you, and most other people are doing, in their opposition of the item is called a slippery slope argument.
And that is a known logical fallacy. Here is some reading material: http://goo.gl/Txni
Summarized,
“A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect.”
There is no warrant in this argument because its already been proven the effect of the items is insignificant. When boosters were first announced the game was dubbed pay to win. Then the player base at large came to realize their effects overall impact was insignificant.
The same thing happened when it was revealed there would be a currency exchange. Which would cause a landslide of people buying legendaries which would give those players a significant advantage in WvW with the ascended upgrade and….ad nauseum. It never happened en masse.
This pick and the complaints around it demonstrate that fallacy to perfection. Its broken logic and a flaw in reasoning.
Incorrect.
You’re definition of what is significant or not makes you disregard the warrant, which is another logical fallacy.
You decide that a sprocket is insignificant, but, objectionably, it is not. This is the same argument as can be seen in examples such as “whose life is worth more…a child’s or an adult’s?” A sprocket carries the same value in this argument as any other concrete item in the game, from a copper coin to legendary. You are trying to use a subjective viewpoint to judge an objective argument.
Using one logical fallacy to try to disprove something you think is a logical fallacy is incorrect.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant. And they are rendered even more insignificant due to the home instance node. A person with the pick has no more of an “advantage” over everyone without it as the people that got the meta node do over people that didnt get it.
We arent talking about Ori, or lodestones, or something that can destabilize the economy and the way people play the game, or devalue everything those items were used for previously.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant. And they are rendered even more insignificant due to the home instance node. A person with the pick has no more of an “advantage” over everyone without it as the people that got the meta node do over people that didnt get it.
We arent talking about Ori, or lodestones, or something that can destabilize the economy and the way people play the game, or devalue everything those items were used for previously.
Again, you are using the same fallacy.
You are using your own subjective value to determine what is an objective argument.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
The only subjective part that comes in is if it makes a difference to you. How much p2w is ok, and where is the line for individual players.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
The only subjective part that comes in is if it makes a difference to you. How much p2w is ok, and where is the line for individual players.
Against my better judgment, I’ll go ahead and bite.
First of all, the term “pay to win” has no true definition. It is a made up term. However, even if you want to argue over a definition that doesn’t truly exist, we’ll use the definition that is most commonly touted.
Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.
I have highlighted the word significant. Now go ahead and give me your perception of what significant is. And while you do that, you can think long and hard about just how subjective the very definition of Pay to Win is, making it a ridiculous argument all unto itself. Once you realize that, you’ll realize just how ridiculous the argument is about the “oh-so-important and ‘must have to compete’ sprockets” is.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
If that is the definition you want to stick by, ignoring the fact that the definition of “normal” play itself is a subjective, then everything in the cash shop is available through normal play since there is a gold to gem conversion.
To say otherwise introduces subjectivity the other way. Since now you have what one group of people might think its an unacceptable conversion rate, or that it takes too long to get gold, or that the gold needed isn’t worth the benefit of the item. And you will have another group of people that doesn’t care and is fine farming/grinding for gold to get the same items. There is a split between the people that value their time more than their money and vice-versa.
To be purely objective, using the goal post you set, means that there is no pay to win since everything is obtainable through the game itself.
And ignoring that is cherry picking. Proponents want to argue its pay to win and will only lead to much more grievous pay to win items, then try to say its not a slippery slope point of view because of the subjective value of sprockets; meanwhile they ignore that the items are available to all players through game, without spending a dime, but apply their own subjective opinion as to how the time needed to not pay cash is unreasonable.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
The only subjective part that comes in is if it makes a difference to you. How much p2w is ok, and where is the line for individual players.
Against my better judgment, I’ll go ahead and bite.
First of all, the term “pay to win” has no true definition. It is a made up term. However, even if you want to argue over a definition that doesn’t truly exist, we’ll use the definition that is most commonly touted.
Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.
I have highlighted the word significant. Now go ahead and give me your perception of what significant is. And while you do that, you can think long and hard about just how subjective the very definition of Pay to Win is, making it a ridiculous argument all unto itself. Once you realize that, you’ll realize just how ridiculous the argument is about the “oh-so-important and ‘must have to compete’ sprockets” is.
Let it sink in.
The term Significant is subjective and can not be part of any definition.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
If that is the definition you want to stick by, ignoring the fact that the definition of “normal” play itself is a subjective, then everything in the cash shop is available through normal play since there is a gold to gem conversion.
To say otherwise introduces subjectivity the other way. Since now you have what one group of people might think its an unacceptable conversion rate, or that it takes too long to get gold, or that the gold needed isn’t worth the benefit of the item. And you will have another group of people that doesn’t care and is fine farming/grinding for gold to get the same items. There is a split between the people that value their time more than their money and vice-versa.
To be purely objective, using the goal post you set, means that there is no pay to win since everything is obtainable through the game itself.
And ignoring that is cherry picking. Proponents want to argue its pay to win and will only lead to much more grievous pay to win items, then try to say its not a slippery slope point of view because of the subjective value of sprockets; meanwhile they ignore that the items are available to all players through game, without spending a dime, but apply their own subjective opinion as to how the time needed to not pay cash is unreasonable.
You pay to win folks are all over the place.
The gem store is not part of the game, any more than Gamestop is part of the game.
Incorrect. You have to look at the impact of that singular item on the game as a whole. In that regard sprockets are insignificant.
Arguing any point to those with the “Pay to Win” mindset or the “I got screwed because they added an unlimited use pick that gives sprockets and all I got was this lousy pick that I can use forever but only gives me ore” mentality is futile. They are going to believe what they believe, regardless of how flawed the logic might be. Your best course of action is just to play the game the same as you have been, and come in here periodically for either a good laugh or to be reminded just how fun it must be to try and please some people.
The only wrong point of view here is trying to say that p2w is subjective. It is not.
Anything that sets one player above another in any way that can not be obtained through normal play in game is p2w. This includes qol items.
The only subjective part that comes in is if it makes a difference to you. How much p2w is ok, and where is the line for individual players.
Against my better judgment, I’ll go ahead and bite.
First of all, the term “pay to win” has no true definition. It is a made up term. However, even if you want to argue over a definition that doesn’t truly exist, we’ll use the definition that is most commonly touted.
Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.
I have highlighted the word significant. Now go ahead and give me your perception of what significant is. And while you do that, you can think long and hard about just how subjective the very definition of Pay to Win is, making it a ridiculous argument all unto itself. Once you realize that, you’ll realize just how ridiculous the argument is about the “oh-so-important and ‘must have to compete’ sprockets” is.
Let it sink in.
The term Significant is subjective and can not be part of any definition.
Then you cannot argue Pay to Win at all, since there is no set definition of Pay to Win.
The gem store is not part of the game, any more than Gamestop is part of the game.
That is subjective. I can open the gem store in the game. I get items from the gem store in my in-game mail. I get gem store items for achievement rewards. It is just your opinion its not “part” of the game.
