Guild Wars 2

I bought two of the new picks, because I wanted the infinite-use convenience (especially when gathering Ori in Southsun). Even so, I would be happy to give up the 20% chance of sprockets to stop the precedent of offering functionality in the gem shop that cannot be obtained in the game. And also to stop all the arguing about this tool: it’s a great game and a great new release and people should be discussing that, rather than did GW2 just become Pay-to-Win (I don’t think it did, but my point is: the players shouldn’t need to worry about whether it might be true or not).

I think this was a particularly tone-deaf offering by the marketing department. By offering an item that is functionally different from those available in game, it should have been obvious that a significant subset of players would respond poorly: those owning other infinite-use tools are bound to be annoyed that they didn’t get the “extra” efficiency; those who can’t (or won’t) pay the 1,000 gem price are going to be annoyed that they can’t get the same functionality anywhere in the game.

But what’s worse is that the “extras” offered by this tool aren’t likely to get that many people to buy it. Speaking anecdotally, everyone I know considering infinite-use tools is only interested in the convenience; getting a few extra sprockets isn’t enough of an incentive to change a “no sale” into a “sure, I’ll pay 1,000 gems” buyer, because it’s still an incredibly poor deal financially. (It’s just not as poor a deal as the original tools.)

This thread cannot go to the second page without getting a legit response.

chemiclord.3978:

Astralporing.1957:

No, the problem here is the people that designed watchwork pick and okayed it’s introduction into the gemshop. Players are not to blame for that – do not try to shift responsibility on them.

Though i agree that people should stop with all the p2w outrage. It only muddles the real issue here.

The problem is ENTIRELY player-side. 100% on us. WE buy this kitten. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t keep seeing it.

It is NOT Arena.net responsibility to say, “Oh? You want to give us money for this? Naaaaah. What do you think we are? A company that is supposed to make money?”

Look in the mirror. Players are the problem.

And ya know what… the entire “buy a legendary thing?” Guess what… if someone was willing to give you approximately $1000 for a weapon skin… something tells me you wouldn’t say “No.”

Actually no it’s not. Because we’ve seen how this type of economy works in the first place in past titles. It’s not the players fault that the economy is the way it is because all loot was “adjusted” just prior to their release of the data concerning the new island and the plans for fractals and ascended gear. When I first started this game, not only were there exotic drops from Champs with no limitations, but there were also exotic drops from chests in the open world.

When they “adjusted” the loot the ratio became so bad that it adversely affected the economy in this game, or have you forgotten how people left the island event with not 1 but multiple precursors? What made it worse was the fact that they wouldn’t admit to it even when thousands of players saw the problem and wrote not one but three major threads about the issue. They let it go on so long that it broke the economy they claimed they were trying to protect.

Sure part of the problem is that players continue to buy these things yes I’ll admit that however it’s HARDLY the fault of the players that the economy is the way it is which is the main concern of the players who are complaining. Had they listened to their playerbase long ago and taken action immediately there would be far fewer complaints.

I said it before and I’ll say it again, I feel sorry for all the new players because it’s going to take them an extremely long time to get anything of merit because of the cost. You know there’s a problem with your drop rates when it’s easier to farm gold to get the items you need (like T6 mats) than it is to actually find them on nodes or from enemy drops.

So it’s a half half situation.

Ayrilana.1396:

VOLKON.1290:

Here’s a pretty good article on pay to win and what it means. Worth a read.

“If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.”

Perhaps you should read the entire article instead of just the bolded text. Context… context is everything.

I did.

Did you?

Context is everything.

killcannon.2576:

AcidicVision.5498:

killcannon.2576:

Gems are created in the gemstore to buy with gold whenever someone trades gems for gold. They are a finite resource created from outside the system by people with real money. When you use gold to buy gems, you are not buying them from Anet. The only supply of gems in game comes from…..real money. Any and all purchases from the gem store use real money. Either yours or someone else’s.

Anet had to create gems to populate the pool initially. In beta, headstart, and launch night there were gems available to buy via in game currency before enough transactions were made to create a surplus. Also, gems are given as rewards for achievement chests. Those chest rewards are a set value that is paid out at an undetermined time per player with no regard as to how many gems are in the “pool”.

So they are not created from outside the system, they are not created with only real money, they are not a finite resource and not all gem store purchases use real money.

Wow, you’re right. Here, I’ll change it.

99.99999% of all gems are made from real money.

Sources please. First you said all gem purchases, now you pull an arbitrary percentage out of your kitten. What empirical data did you use to derive that figure? You did say we were just talking about the facts afterall.

How many gems have been purchased? How many total have been given away for achievements? How many gems were available at the start of the game and has there ever been a time Anet has had to inject more? I am sure you don’t know. The closest any of us may be able to get is gems given through achievements via leaderboard.

It seems to me like you are presenting your own opinions as facts here and then telling everyone else that their opinions are invalid to the point.

Btw, were you aware that hyperbole is also it’s own logical fallacy? That’s three you are guilty of in the same discussion. Like I may have said before, I dont expect that to actually change your tune any. I’d just like you to know that there are names and cliches for the different kinds of bullkitten you are spinning.

VOLKON.1290:

Ayrilana.1396:

VOLKON.1290:

Here’s a pretty good article on pay to win and what it means. Worth a read.

“If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.”

Perhaps you should read the entire article instead of just the bolded text. Context… context is everything.

I did.

Did you?

Context is everything.

Mixed you up with someone else that had posted which is why I assumed you hadn’t read the article. I apologize for the confusion.

AcidicVision.5498:

killcannon.2576:

AcidicVision.5498:

killcannon.2576:

Gems are created in the gemstore to buy with gold whenever someone trades gems for gold. They are a finite resource created from outside the system by people with real money. When you use gold to buy gems, you are not buying them from Anet. The only supply of gems in game comes from…..real money. Any and all purchases from the gem store use real money. Either yours or someone else’s.

Anet had to create gems to populate the pool initially. In beta, headstart, and launch night there were gems available to buy via in game currency before enough transactions were made to create a surplus. Also, gems are given as rewards for achievement chests. Those chest rewards are a set value that is paid out at an undetermined time per player with no regard as to how many gems are in the “pool”.

So they are not created from outside the system, they are not created with only real money, they are not a finite resource and not all gem store purchases use real money.

Wow, you’re right. Here, I’ll change it.

99.99999% of all gems are made from real money.

Sources please. First you said all gem purchases, now you pull an arbitrary percentage out of your kitten. What empirical data did you use to derive that figure? You did say we were just talking about the facts afterall.

How many gems have been purchased? How many total have been given away for achievements? How many gems were available at the start of the game and has there ever been a time Anet has had to inject more? I am sure you don’t know. The closest any of us may be able to get is gems given through achievements via leaderboard.

It seems to me like you are presenting your own opinions as facts here and then telling everyone else that their opinions are invalid to the point.

Btw, were you aware that hyperbole is also it’s own logical fallacy? That’s three you are guilty of in the same discussion. Like I may have said before, I dont expect that to actually change your tune any. I’d just like you to know that there are names and cliches for the different kinds of bullkitten you are spinning.

I will allow you to struggle silently with your defeat.

Btw, hyperbole is not a logical fallacy, it’s a literary device. What are the two logical fallacies you are incorrect about me using?

Hyperbole is just rhetoric used for persuasion. It contains no argument which means it doesn’t fall under as a logical fallacy.

Politicians make this mistake all the time and trying to pass off hyperbole statements as arguments.

Here is actual math.

Currently, it costs 9g for 100 gems on my server. The pick costs 1000 gems. Therefore, the pick costs 90g to purchase. Definitely not cheap.

How much money do you make from using it? Well, so far I’ve probably made a solid 10 silver off selling the sprockets over a few days.

So, how long will it take to make it worth it? A LONG TIME. In short, I didn’t get it because I thought it would give me some crazy in-game advantage. I got it because I wanted an infinite pick with cool animations.

BOTTOM LINE: Anyone who bought the pick to make money will be disappointed. Players who want to make gold through the gem store should simply turn their gems into gold instead. So, if you want to complain about “Pay to Win,” please complain about that.

Tozen.9814:

Here is actual math.

Currently, it costs 9g for 100 gems on my server. The pick costs 1000 gems. Therefore, the pick costs 90g to purchase. Definitely not cheap.

How much money do you make from using it? Well, so far I’ve probably made a solid 10 silver off selling the sprockets over a few days.

So, how long will it take to make it worth it? A LONG TIME. In short, I didn’t get it because I thought it would give me some crazy in-game advantage. I got it because I wanted an infinite pick with cool animations.

BOTTOM LINE: Anyone who bought the pick to make money will be disappointed. Players who want to make gold through the gem store should simply turn their gems into gold instead. So, if you want to complain about “Pay to Win,” please complain about that.

You better hurry though, I predict that the sprockets will decline to vendor value in the future since the acquisition rate is so high, and the current demand is sure to fall once people acquire the very limited number of items that utilize the sprockets.

Still waiting for a response from Anet.

If other players would get access to sprockets in some way or another through out the year, then everything is fine. Otherwise, although this may not be pay to “win” per se (or atleast sprockets are not yet game breaking as it is), I would rather call it premium unlockables, a milder version of pay to win. I have 6 stacks of sprockets in my bank (+2 stacks in storage) and I don’t know if I’ll ever need them in the future atm. I do think we might get access to sprockets all year round, since the LS season 1 is ending and we don’t know what the model of the game would be afterwards (I mean, would the past LS events become replayable or not?). So for now, be patient guys.

Steel Fenrir.2791:

If other players would get access to sprockets in some way or another through out the year, then everything is fine. Otherwise, although this may not be pay to “win” per se (or atleast sprockets are not yet game breaking as it is), I would rather call it premium unlockables, a milder version of pay to win. I have 6 stacks of sprockets in my bank (+2 stacks in storage) and I don’t know if I’ll ever need them in the future atm. I do think we might get access to sprockets all year round, since the LS season 1 is ending and we don’t know what the model of the game would be afterwards (I mean, would the past LS events become replayable or not?). So for now, be patient guys.

Two things.

First. Players can still currently get access to sprockets year round if they do the Origin of Madness meta achievement and earn the Gift of Sprockets. (Much like you can get Quartz or Candy Corn all year round). There’s also talk of the Queen’s Gauntlet opening again at some unknown point, and if it comes with the Pavilion as well then there’s a good chance people can farm up a ton of the things.

Secondly. This topic isn’t supposed to be about the sprockets so much as the precedent of a mining pick with infinite uses and a bonus effect as opposed to just being unlimited.

I’ll also add nobody yet answered questions which were seriously asked about:

- If the pick was dropped via a more convoluted effort but you could just skip it for 1000 Gems, would anyone care as much?

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

p2w is here and always has been since the game launched. But now they are molding content around the cash store so you feel like you have to buy gems/gold to keep up. I am actually for having a cash store and don’t really care about the gem to gold transfers. I don’t care if someone wants to spend real money to buy a legendary, the option I actually think is good for the game since those with the money will buy it from an outside source anyways. That on its own I don’t think bothers most people. I think most would agree with me if its just a shortcut like when the game started then its not a big deal.

No I don’t agree.
First of all, it’s not new they they build stuff around the cash-shop or / and try to make you feel you have to spend cash.

People whole like collecting mini’s or other cosmetics in the world have a problem because they put most not in the open wold would you still like to have them then it’s grind gold grind gold grind achievements or buy them with money. Thats a push towards spending money. So that trying to get you to buy has been there for a long timer but it did become more and more indeed.

Secondly. Buy allowing the short cut you take away any feeling of accomplishment. It’s just an item that maybe somebody did a lot of work for but maybe he just both it. Same for the mini examples, even if they where all in the world but at the same time you could easily buy them with cash would take away much of the value of the item.

Did you see how fast they responded to the rank 30 requirement for the Gift of Battle? It doesn’t look like we’ll be seeing any response to this issue at all.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Did you see how fast they responded to the rank 30 requirement for the Gift of Battle? It doesn’t look like we’ll be seeing any response to this issue at all.

This, as well as the Flamekissed armor.

Keep the questions coming and one year maybe they’ll answer.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Keep the questions coming and one year maybe they’ll answer.

I hate to say it, but your answer will come a lot earlier than that. Say… when they release the next infinite sickle or axe.

I was one of the first people in the first thread to say “Give them a day to answer”. I was trying to be respectful and understanding. Clearly, it was a wasted effort.

Lesson learned.

Simply put:

They aren’t going to admit to making a mistake with the Watchwork Pick because they don’t believe they made one, and they aren’t going to dignify the complaints with a response.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Steel Fenrir.2791:

If other players would get access to sprockets in some way or another through out the year, then everything is fine. Otherwise, although this may not be pay to “win” per se (or atleast sprockets are not yet game breaking as it is), I would rather call it premium unlockables, a milder version of pay to win. I have 6 stacks of sprockets in my bank (+2 stacks in storage) and I don’t know if I’ll ever need them in the future atm. I do think we might get access to sprockets all year round, since the LS season 1 is ending and we don’t know what the model of the game would be afterwards (I mean, would the past LS events become replayable or not?). So for now, be patient guys.

Two things.

First. Players can still currently get access to sprockets year round if they do the Origin of Madness meta achievement and earn the Gift of Sprockets. (Much like you can get Quartz or Candy Corn all year round). There’s also talk of the Queen’s Gauntlet opening again at some unknown point, and if it comes with the Pavilion as well then there’s a good chance people can farm up a ton of the things.

Secondly. This topic isn’t supposed to be about the sprockets so much as the precedent of a mining pick with infinite uses and a bonus effect as opposed to just being unlimited.

I’ll also add nobody yet answered questions which were seriously asked about:

- If the pick was dropped via a more convoluted effort but you could just skip it for 1000 Gems, would anyone care as much?

I don’t care now.

But if it was available in game from a BLC or some permanent questline or as a rare drop, I wouldn’t be able to argue it as p2w any longer. Even if it was a limited use pick for 50 silver or so.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll also add nobody yet answered questions which were seriously asked about:

- If the pick was dropped via a more convoluted effort but you could just skip it for 1000 Gems, would anyone care as much?

This has been answered. If they had put in the same chance on all ori level picks it would not have been a problem at all. It does not need to be a convoluted effort, just needs to include similar odds rather than one gem-store item. I don’t consider the meta as an similar chance since it too is limited to those that did the meta which is a time limited item.

I love all the arguing in here because it really shows the average intelligence level of the gamers here.

Ignoring the fact that you can literally buy one of those sprocket picks for less than 70 gold on any given day, you are given a node of sprockets in your home instance for daily use as a reward for an achievement. So I don’t care HOW you define “pay to win” this is not it. Like what the actual kitten?

Second, taking into account that there is literally a way to exchange gold for gems, you are not gated from getting anything in the “cash shop” even if you are 12 and don’t have parents permission to use real money because you can use freaking gold. Why is this even an issue anyway?! Do you actually have nothing better to complain about?

chemiclord.3978:

and they aren’t going to dignify the complaints with a response.

At this point, this is what hurts the most. Apparently telling the forums that the Seahawks won is more important than at least communicating with customers that have concerns, saying something, anything, in regards to something like this. Allaying fears, and the like.

But when all a company gives is silence?

Apparently Tier 3 Cultural Armor is important enough to get Anet’s attention, but the precedent of something like the pick is meaningless.

Reichbane.6297:

Why is this even an issue anyway?!

I’d explain, for the hundredth time, but you won’t get it. You’ll never get it.

I’ll try and put it in simple words for you, though, in the hopes that maybe you’ll get it this way: For all my complaints, I still see a lot of potential for this game. I wouldn’t criticize the watchwork pick if I didn’t think GW2 was capable of better. I don’t want to see a good game become another Maple Story or TOR.

I invite everyone to visit my thread on Reddit I created on this issue, where I summarized the main issues with this Pick.

Reichbane.6297:

I love all the arguing in here because it really shows the average intelligence level of the gamers here.

Ignoring the fact that you can literally buy one of those sprocket picks for less than 70 gold on any given day, you are given a node of sprockets in your home instance for daily use as a reward for an achievement. So I don’t care HOW you define “pay to win” this is not it. Like what the actual kitten?

So you buy, grind gold or grind achievements.

Funny thats exactly what I said how the cash-shop focus was destroying this game. Making everything a gold and achievements grind while trying to push people to pay money in the cash-shop.

Oow and I complained about the time-gated nature. Well the achievement to get that node it temporary available and the pick I am not sure about but is likely also temporary available.

Reichbane.6297:

Second, taking into account that there is literally a way to exchange gold for gems, you are not gated from getting anything in the “cash shop” even if you are 12 and don’t have parents permission to use real money because you can use freaking gold. Why is this even an issue anyway?! Do you actually have nothing better to complain about?

Of course that does not change the fact that the cash-shop does effect the game-play in a negative way. But you can convert gold to gems if thats an excuse why not just start putting P2W items in there. You can buy it with gold anyway.

Just guessing here that P2W is the trigger for you but maybe it isn’t. Maybe you are the type of person that can’t handle money, so spend it on cash-shops and are even hoping for P2W items so you can buy them and show of how great you are.

No sorry the gold 2 gem excuse is not valid. It does not change the fact that the cash-shop effects the game in a negative way.
Before mainly for people who like the RP elements of the game like going into the world to collect mini’s and so on. Now it’s also hurting the people who care about this sort of stats and meanwhile it has hurt people who don’t like never ending grinds, temporary content and zerg fest / champ trains in PvE

Gene Archer.8560:

chemiclord.3978:

and they aren’t going to dignify the complaints with a response.

At this point, this is what hurts the most. Apparently telling the forums that the Seahawks won is more important than at least communicating with customers that have concerns, saying something, anything, in regards to something like this. Allaying fears, and the like.

But when all a company gives is silence?

Apparently Tier 3 Cultural Armor is important enough to get Anet’s attention, but the precedent of something like the pick is meaningless.

Reichbane.6297:

Why is this even an issue anyway?!

I’d explain, for the hundredth time, but you won’t get it. You’ll never get it.

I’ll try and put it in simple words for you, though, in the hopes that maybe you’ll get it this way: For all my complaints, I still see a lot of potential for this game. I wouldn’t criticize the watchwork pick if I didn’t think GW2 was capable of better. I don’t want to see a good game become another Maple Story or TOR.

Funny enough, the person who made Maple Story the Maple Story you are talking about is now working for Anet being the person that makes most of these decisions (or at least comes up with the idea.. I don’t know who has the finale word.

Rengaru.4730:

I invite everyone to visit my thread on Reddit I created on this issue, where I summarized the main issues with this Pick.

tbo I think the official forums are the main place to say something to the developers. I personally see Reddit more as something to just discuss things with the community.

Seriously guys, i don’t see any problems with this kind of gem shop’s item.
I only want to remember you that you are playing a P2B game, updated every 2 weeks (no matter how and if well or not) with the possibility to buy from gem store with in game money. Guys came on! Until these “advantages” (P2W ? really? you must play other MMO to learn what Pay To Win is) are “a bit more RESOURCES” (do you consider gatering as an advantage? it isn’t… not in gw2) it is perfectly fine for me because ArenaNet really deserve some money for their hard work, even if this isn’t their aim. The only thing we can ask more to ArenaNet is a little discount on gems with $/€ and in game golds this will make shop less “omg it is Pay To Win!!!” (kids…) and more “new stuff on the store… i can give them a try”.

That’s all for me.

Devata.6589:

I personally see Reddit more as something to just discuss thing with the community.

Thats what I wanted to do.

And honestly, does it really matter in which forum we are being ignored by the devs?

Kjeldoran.3849:

Seriously guys, i don’t see any problems with this kind of gem shop’s item.
I only want to remember you that you are playing a P2B game, updated every 2 weeks (no matter how and if well or not) with the possibility to buy from gem store with in game money. Guys came on! Until these “advantages” (P2W ? really? you must play other MMO to learn what Pay To Win is) are “a bit more RESOURCES” (do you consider gatering as an advantage? it isn’t… not in gw2) it is perfectly fine for me because ArenaNet really deserve some money for their hard work, even if this isn’t their aim. The only thing we can ask more to ArenaNet is a little discount on gems with $/€ and in game golds this will make shop less “omg it is Pay To Win!!!” (kids…) and more “new stuff on the store… i can give them a try”.

That’s all for me.

How about not having the cash-shop effect the game.

Besides I am not waiting for 2 weekly updates with temporary achievements grinds and more of the same most of the time.

So then they release an good quality expansion every year / year and a half. No cash-shop that effects the game-play and we pay them by buying the expansions.

Devata.6589:

How about not having the cash-shop effect the game.

why don’t you start to work for free for the rest of your life? …

Kjeldoran.3849:

Devata.6589:

How about not having the cash-shop effect the game.

why don’t you start to work for free for the rest of your life? …

Let me quote myself:
“So then they release an good quality expansion every year / year and a half. No cash-shop that effects the game-play and we pay them by buying the expansions.”

Why don’t you start to read the whole comment before placing reactions?…

Devata.6589:

Let me quote myself:
“So then they release an good quality expansion every year / year and a half. No cash-shop that effects the game-play and we pay them by buying the expansion.”

you can’t decide for this, if anet decided to give all for free it is all for free and you are always free to spend your money for in game “P2W” (which aren’t) items. This thread is no-sense and the whole discussion is only damaging this great game for those who approach to the game for the first time.

Kjeldoran.3849:

you can’t decide for this, if anet decided to give all for free it is all for free and you are always free to spend your money for in game “P2W” (which aren’t) items. This thread is no-sense and the whole discussion is only damaging this great game for those who approach to the game for the first time.

Lol fanboy alert.

He made a great comment: Get rid of the cash shop and just release paid expansions every X time that have all the content we want.

Basically how GW1 operated.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Devata.6589:

Let me quote myself:
“So then they release an good quality expansion every year / year and a half. No cash-shop that effects the game-play and we pay them by buying the expansion.”

you can’t decide for this, if anet decided to give all for free it is all for free and you are always free to spend your money for in game “P2W” (which aren’t) items. This thread is no-sense and the whole discussion is only damaging this great game for those who approach to the game for the first time.

Problem is that it does effect the game. There focus on the cash-shop made it a big gold grind and taking multiple game-play elements out of the game.
I can;t decide but I can complain about what they do and you know, maybe some people there will change there mind. It’s really a shame for this game. It could have been much more then this never ending gold-grind.

Shakkara.2641:

Kjeldoran.3849:

you can’t decide for this, if anet decided to give all for free it is all for free and you are always free to spend your money for in game “P2W” (which aren’t) items. This thread is no-sense and the whole discussion is only damaging this great game for those who approach to the game for the first time.

Lol fanboy alert.

He made a great comment: Get rid of the cash shop and just release paid expansions every X time that have all the content we want.

Basically how GW1 operated.

It’s because they did that with GW1 that I expected them to do the same with GW2.. And the fact that they put it on the market as P2B not as micro-transaction based while thats what GW2 is now for the most part. That is how they generate there main income. Not with box-sales (including expansions).

Shakkara.2641:

Kjeldoran.3849:

you can’t decide for this, if anet decided to give all for free it is all for free and you are always free to spend your money for in game “P2W” (which aren’t) items. This thread is no-sense and the whole discussion is only damaging this great game for those who approach to the game for the first time.

Lol fanboy alert.

He made a great comment: Get rid of the cash shop and just release paid expansions every X time that have all the content we want.

Basically how GW1 operated.

I’m not a “fanboy” simply i played almost every MMO before gw2 and i can’t believe there are so many people that want more, more and more for free, now and bugfree… and a coffe of course! I really want to see you play other MMOs… a week and you will be back here.

If arenanet decide to go for a P2B expansion every X time this is another problem and in the wrong thread if you missed this please start to read from page 1. Also i want to let you know that the “quantity of codes” created by anet during the last year is more than any expansion you can find in other games (the only difference is that 50% or more of content was up only for about a month).

Devata.6589:

So you buy, grind gold or grind achievements.

“Grind achievements”.

11 days out of 28 fighting either the Marionette or Great Jungle Wurm, maximum. And if you happen to be in on a good successful Marionette run, it’s probably shortened to around 7. And if you do more than one Marionette fight and vary things a bit, you can get down even further I’m sure. That’s a grind?

I mean, I get people want to slap the word “grind” on “they want me to do stuff more than once” but . . . seriously? Seven days out of a month with some active play, or eleven where you just show up for a half hour. I just want to reiterate this point. There was nothing ANet was doing stopping people complaining here about not having sprockets from getting their bonus node.

And also to reiterate there is constant talk about how this isn’t about sprockets but the precedent of a cash shop item granting a bonus. (Which is odd, since it could be traced this has been set before with Boosters but hey, who wants to worry about splitting hairs when we can whip up a good ol fashioned lynch mob?)

And yes, I’m quickly souring on this whole topic since the ones who wanted to discuss how this was a bad idea due to the precedent are now trapped with the talk of “pay to win” definitions and sprockets over the actual precedent they wanted to bring up.

Funny thats exactly what I said how the cash-shop focus was destroying this game. Making everything a gold and achievements grind while trying to push people to pay money in the cash-shop.

They gotta make their money somehow, and they decided (for whatever reason) they wanted the cash shop route instead of constant expansions. I’m still not sure why achievement grind has to mean anything about the cash shop, but hey, that’s not the topic on hand so we’ll leave that question in the “never to be answered” box.

Still don’t understand why people want to subject themselves to grind in this game anyway. There’s really not a reason to, aside from chasing shiny cool stuff. (Notably, exactly what you ground for in the previous game but again, who cares about that?)

Oow and I complained about the time-gated nature. Well the achievement to get that node it temporary available and the pick I am not sure about but is likely also temporary available.

Yes, except . . .

We all knew this going in, it was clearly stated last January about things being time-sensitive and limited-release. And while things were temporarily available they’ve also come back at least once now.

So you can’t even claim it’s a certainty they’ll offer it once and never again.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

So you buy, grind gold or grind achievements.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“Grind achievements”.

11 days out of 28 fighting either the Marionette or Great Jungle Wurm, maximum. And if you happen to be in on a good successful Marionette run, it’s probably shortened to around 7. And if you do more than one Marionette fight and vary things a bit, you can get down even further I’m sure. That’s a grind?

I mean, I get people want to slap the word “grind” on “they want me to do stuff more than once” but . . . seriously? Seven days out of a month with some active play, or eleven where you just show up for a half hour. I just want to reiterate this point. There was nothing ANet was doing stopping people complaining here about not having sprockets from getting their bonus node.

So you need to play this month to get the sprockets advantages.

A break? no can’t do. And every 2 weeks they add a new achievement list (last time a very small one but still) and then 2 weeks later again and then 2 weeks later again and then again and then again and then again now already for over a year.

Yeah even if it’s not a lot of work that still makes it a grind. If it would not be temporary that would be a whole other story but now it keeps on going thats why it’s a grind.

Next to that is the constant gold-grind. Being it for the normal things (mats and so on) but they also always have temporary available items. There is a mini pack now, the pick, valentine stuff, not completely temporary but more ‘grind now or grind much more later… or buy!!!’.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They gotta make their money somehow, and they decided (for whatever reason) they wanted the cash shop route instead of constant expansions. I’m still not sure why achievement grind has to mean anything about the cash shop, but hey, that’s not the topic on hand so we’ll leave that question in the “never to be answered” box.

Still don’t understand why people want to subject themselves to grind in this game anyway. There’s really not a reason to, aside from chasing shiny cool stuff. (Notably, exactly what you ground for in the previous game but again, who cares about that?)

Yeah and the problem maybe is exactly that decision and they should rethink that. Many of the complains you see can be related to that decisions.

It’s most likely to try and keep people in the game. Make everything temporary so you have a good excuse to put temporary items in the cash-shop all the time. That to create the feeling of buy now or lose out forever.

People are subjected to grind because there is no other option for many things. You want to get a specific mini? Well most are in the cash-shop and end up in the TP. You can’t go hunt them down in the world so you need to grind for gold to then buy them.

Want high tier mats to create a legendary. You can’t really farm them in the world because they are mainly world loot drops or just to rare. best way to get them is grinding gold.

You want a specific skins. Again, many are world loot drops or cash-shop related so going for them in the open world in not an option except for buying gold.

Luckily you can of course buy gold with cash. wink wink.

Do you ever consider that chasing shiny cool stuff is what the game-play is about for many people? Not everybody is only looking for stats. BiS might be about stats for you but about a look / skin / shiny for somebody else.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yes, except . . .

We all knew this going in, it was clearly stated last January about things being time-sensitive and limited-release. And while things were temporarily available they’ve also come back at least once now.

So you can’t even claim it’s a certainty they’ll offer it once and never again.

What has there claim from last January to do with anything? They have been doing this for over a year now and I dislike it for the beginning. Yes by now we know they do it that does not make it even a little bit better.

No it might come back. Likely also temporary so then you have a second change. Of course you can not be sure of it might not come back. Still does not make it better. Only thing what would make it better was if we knew it would come back later and then would be I the gameworld-forever. So getting it now would just give you that extra for lets say half year to a year. But even if that was the case it would only help if that was a known fact and it isn’t. Also it would still not be optimal. But better.

What I am asking for is get everything back, put it in the game-world where it belongs and make your money with expansions so we do not need to have more of this annoying ‘grind grind grind, or buy gold wink wink’ and “do it now or lose out forever” marketing stuff that doesn’t do the game any good.

@Devata – Considering most of this isn’t about the pick anymore, not gonna run off topic further.

But I point out again, in this topic now the only new thing is the Gems-to-Gold conversion when looking between the grind in GW1 and the grind in GW2. It’s still for “the shiny hotness”, it’s still for a questionable amount of edge sometimes, and it’s still not even really needed to get through the game as it exists currently.

Considering GW1 offered skill unlock packs for sale which reduced the tedium and expense of going around to find and unlock them all (which could be a substantial amount of platinum and grinding skill points), the whole “pay money to avoid the grind” isn’t new at all to this company.

If you couldn’t (legitimately) convert Gold to Gems and then into whatever you felt like, you could do it illegitimately which happened in GW1. (Not commonly, but if you knew where to look . . .) This isn’t new from this company, and trying to place it on the Gem Store for how things are going . . .

It just doesn’t hold up.

As for “do it now or lose out forever” options? There were Festival Hats in GW1, which still were pretty limited in availability. Especially since they required you to be present on one exact day at an exact time or miss out.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

So you buy, grind gold or grind achievements.

“Grind achievements”.

11 days out of 28 fighting either the Marionette or Great Jungle Wurm, maximum. And if you happen to be in on a good successful Marionette run, it’s probably shortened to around 7. And if you do more than one Marionette fight and vary things a bit, you can get down even further I’m sure. That’s a grind?

I mean, I get people want to slap the word “grind” on “they want me to do stuff more than once” but . . . seriously? Seven days out of a month with some active play, or eleven where you just show up for a half hour. I just want to reiterate this point. There was nothing ANet was doing stopping people complaining here about not having sprockets from getting their bonus node.

And also to reiterate there is constant talk about how this isn’t about sprockets but the precedent of a cash shop item granting a bonus. (Which is odd, since it could be traced this has been set before with Boosters but hey, who wants to worry about splitting hairs when we can whip up a good ol fashioned lynch mob?)

And yes, I’m quickly souring on this whole topic since the ones who wanted to discuss how this was a bad idea due to the precedent are now trapped with the talk of “pay to win” definitions and sprockets over the actual precedent they wanted to bring up.

Funny thats exactly what I said how the cash-shop focus was destroying this game. Making everything a gold and achievements grind while trying to push people to pay money in the cash-shop.

They gotta make their money somehow, and they decided (for whatever reason) they wanted the cash shop route instead of constant expansions. I’m still not sure why achievement grind has to mean anything about the cash shop, but hey, that’s not the topic on hand so we’ll leave that question in the “never to be answered” box.

Still don’t understand why people want to subject themselves to grind in this game anyway. There’s really not a reason to, aside from chasing shiny cool stuff. (Notably, exactly what you ground for in the previous game but again, who cares about that?)

Oow and I complained about the time-gated nature. Well the achievement to get that node it temporary available and the pick I am not sure about but is likely also temporary available.

Yes, except . . .

We all knew this going in, it was clearly stated last January about things being time-sensitive and limited-release. And while things were temporarily available they’ve also come back at least once now.

So you can’t even claim it’s a certainty they’ll offer it once and never again.

Boosters are available in game.

Devata wants a traditional expansion model.

Feel free to cut out the rest of his/her meandering posts; it’s all flimsy rationalization.

So far by the logic displayed in this thread even a freaking expansion is P2W. Since they usually come with better items. So everyone who buys expansions is just a P2W noob. You know what? Let’s take it a step further. Since apparently the fact that there’s a kittening exchange rate between gold and gems is an invalid point and that doesn’t matter, the cash shop is still P2W, let’s say that buying the game at all is P2W.

And I’m sorry but if you don’t have the the ability to make 63 gold (currently what 1k gems is worth), maybe you don’t deserve the item anyway, and you’re probably the type of person that complains about how, long legendaries take to make.

Yes. The achievement isn’t permanent, but it’s been here for a pretty long time already, and I started on it last week, just got it today. After seven runs of the Marrionette. So complain more. But you’re just being ridiculous.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

@Devata – Considering most of this isn’t about the pick anymore, not gonna run off topic further.

But I point out again, in this topic now the only new thing is the Gems-to-Gold conversion when looking between the grind in GW1 and the grind in GW2. It’s still for “the shiny hotness”, it’s still for a questionable amount of edge sometimes, and it’s still not even really needed to get through the game as it exists currently.

Considering GW1 offered skill unlock packs for sale which reduced the tedium and expense of going around to find and unlock them all (which could be a substantial amount of platinum and grinding skill points), the whole “pay money to avoid the grind” isn’t new at all to this company.

If you couldn’t (legitimately) convert Gold to Gems and then into whatever you felt like, you could do it illegitimately which happened in GW1. (Not commonly, but if you knew where to look . . .) This isn’t new from this company, and trying to place it on the Gem Store for how things are going . . .

It just doesn’t hold up.

As for “do it now or lose out forever” options? There were Festival Hats in GW1, which still were pretty limited in availability. Especially since they required you to be present on one exact day at an exact time or miss out.

I do find it’s related to the topic because it’s about how the cash-shop works but indeed it might be a bid to much into details not directly related. So will also not go on much longer abound it.

Still like I said. for enough people going for the fluff is the game-play they like. So the fact thats it’s ‘not needed’ does not really care. I would love to see fun-crafts in GW2. Crafts where you can make fun items.. not items you need just fun. That is also a type of game-play.

I did not play a lot of GW1 but as far as I did I think there was less need for gold-grind.

The problem is not so much that you can convert gold but the way they try you to buy it. As long as they would put mini’s in the game-world (of course now they can’t because it’s how they make money) and also many weapons and skins so you can get them in specific places then you can do specific content to get them. Farm the items.

Now in many cases you can’t because it are world drops so it becomes a gold-grind. Thats one of the problems.

The hats where a line of items that indeed worked like that. I see that as something different because it was this separate line (only cosmetic hats). They are now doing that with all sort of items and all the time.

chemiclord.3978:

Devata wants a traditional expansion model.

Feel free to cut out the rest of his/her meandering posts; it’s all flimsy rationalization.

I want that because the micro-transaction based model is messing with the game.

The rest of the post is telling why or / and how it is doing that..

Reichbane.6297:

So far by the logic displayed in this thread even a freaking expansion is P2W. Since they usually come with better items. So everyone who buys expansions is just a P2W noob. You know what? Let’s take it a step further. Since apparently the fact that there’s a kittening exchange rate between gold and gems is an invalid point and that doesn’t matter, the cash shop is still P2W, let’s say that buying the game at all is P2W.

And I’m sorry but if you don’t have the the ability to make 63 gold (currently what 1k gems is worth), maybe you don’t deserve the item anyway, and you’re probably the type of person that complains about how, long legendaries take to make.

Yes. The achievement isn’t permanent, but it’s been here for a pretty long time already, and I started on it last week, just got it today. After seven runs of the Marrionette. So complain more. But you’re just being ridiculous.

You talking to me? Last part would suggest you did but I did not say anything about P2W what you are talking about in the first part.

I can easily make 63 gold but I don’t want to grind golf to buy the items that I want! Already said that multiple times.
For many people the fun is going into the world and there going for that items. By doing a quest, by doing a dungeon hell by farming a specific type of mob. But the fun is going for that item, and doing so whenever you feel like it.
Not grinding gold day in day out to buy the item. Have been doing that for a while and it gets boring very soon. Now that might be the whole point because then some people might start buying gold with gems.

By itself all temporary achievements are very doable. However that does not help because it keeps coming. 1 week from now a new list then 2 weeks later a new list then again and again all do it now or miss out forever.

Devata.6589:

I can easily make 63 gold but I don’t want to grind golf to buy the items that I want!

Then you don’t REALLY have the right to complain. There’s an exchange rate available. You’re too lazy to do it. You want everything handed to you. Go play games that give that to you instead of mucking up our community with complaints and anger over the most ridiculous things.

Devata.6589:

chemiclord.3978:

Devata wants a traditional expansion model.

Feel free to cut out the rest of his/her meandering posts; it’s all flimsy rationalization.

I want that because the micro-transaction based model is messing with the game.

The rest of the post is telling why or / and how it is doing that..

And you have yet to explain how changing to an expansion model changes the company’s behavior outside of, “Because I say it will.” A lazy developer who cranks out cheap content isn’t going to become a nose to the grindstone publisher looking to studiously create quality content because they’ve switched production model. They’ll produce lazy, cheap expansions.

Reichbane.6297:

Devata.6589:

I can easily make 63 gold but I don’t want to grind golf to buy the items that I want!

Then you don’t REALLY have the right to complain. There’s an exchange rate available. You’re too lazy to do it. You want everything handed to you. Go play games that give that to you instead of mucking up our community with complaints and anger over the most ridiculous things.

Lol so you read or only rant? I want to get the stuff in the game (nice how you did not quote that part). That does not mean I want to get it for free, or get it handed to me or whatever. It might be more work to get it in-game then it would now need to grind the gold. Still I would want to get it that way because thats more fun! And you might have forgotten that as you seem to be a grinder, but games should be about fun.

Removing a whole game-play element, turning everything into a kitten grind (what so many people are complaining about) is far from a ridiculous thing to ‘muck’ about.