Guild Wars 2

gryph.8734:

So my challenge stands. If you think you and your buddies can design a better game and make a go of it financially, go right ahead.

Your ‘challenge’ is so old and tired and downright silly that you should get a 50 DKP minus for using it. Heck, 350! By using it, you demonstrate that you are bereft of any valid argument.

One need not be a chef de cuisine to know that if the crème brûlée smells like a litter box that hasn’t been cleaned in a week, there’s probably something wrong with it.

Tachenon.5270:

gryph.8734:

So my challenge stands. If you think you and your buddies can design a better game and make a go of it financially, go right ahead.

Your ‘challenge’ is so old and tired and downright silly that you should get a 50 DKP minus for using it. Heck, 350! By using it, you demonstrate that you are bereft of any valid argument.

One need not be a chef de cuisine to know that if the crème brûlée smells like a litter box that hasn’t been cleaned in a week, there’s probably something wrong with it.

But if one has never made a good creme brulee and can not make one any better than that, you’ll get laughed right out of the kitchen for cussing out the chef.

gryph.8734:

Tachenon.5270:

gryph.8734:

So my challenge stands. If you think you and your buddies can design a better game and make a go of it financially, go right ahead.

Your ‘challenge’ is so old and tired and downright silly that you should get a 50 DKP minus for using it. Heck, 350! By using it, you demonstrate that you are bereft of any valid argument.

One need not be a chef de cuisine to know that if the crème brûlée smells like a litter box that hasn’t been cleaned in a week, there’s probably something wrong with it.

But if one has never made a good creme brulee and can not make one any better than that, you’ll get laughed right out of the kitchen for cussing out the chef.

What’s happening here is that the chef is trying to tell us that a litter box is a creme brulee. GW2 has entered Bizarro World: up is down, left is right, right is wrong, …

The unanswered questions remain: why did people leave? What prompted them to log out and never log in again?

There’s no exit survey. Even if there was, how would anet know if someone was logging out for the last time? I quit for around five months and anet never contacted me to ask me why I wasn’t playing. Maybe I played too long before leaving. Maybe I didn’t stay gone long enough. Maybe I’m not the metric they’re looking for.

And another thing: one of the anet guys said they did this because ‘over a years worth of testing with new players found we were absolutely able to keep them both more engaged, and more likely to return to keep playing Gw2 as a result of the intended system’ and then further clarified that ‘testing was done predominantly in the west focused on players who played guild wars 2 today, people who played gw2 at launch and left, people who heavily play other MMORPG’s, and people who heavily play RPG’s.’

Fascinating.

Does that mean there been a (gasp) test server, somewhere, running various NPE versions of the game all along, for testing purposes?

Kamui.4038:

gryph.8734:

Tachenon.5270:

gryph.8734:

So my challenge stands. If you think you and your buddies can design a better game and make a go of it financially, go right ahead.

Your ‘challenge’ is so old and tired and downright silly that you should get a 50 DKP minus for using it. Heck, 350! By using it, you demonstrate that you are bereft of any valid argument.

One need not be a chef de cuisine to know that if the crème brûlée smells like a litter box that hasn’t been cleaned in a week, there’s probably something wrong with it.

But if one has never made a good creme brulee and can not make one any better than that, you’ll get laughed right out of the kitchen for cussing out the chef.

What’s happening here is that the chef is trying to tell us that a litter box is a creme brulee. GW2 has entered Bizarro World: up is down, left is right, right is wrong, …

No, actually not. The chef already has confirmed that something is wrong in the kitchen and that they are working on fixing it.

anzenketh.3759:

Behellagh.1468:

Metrics are tools, nothing more.

The problem with too much focus on metrics is that you tend to design a game to match the metrics instead of innovating. I hope that ArenaNet understands this or they will fall pray to the same problem that the social game industry fell into. Too Many Clones. (Or is the AAA gaming industry already at that problem).

Extra Credits: Metrics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqGcXOksFGg

The above video explains another reason that is applicable to Guild Wars 2. Often metrics based games create inaccessible products only accessible to a niche player-base. This is perhaps what happened in the initial development of this game. Leading to a complete re-design of core systems.

Exactly. Metrics don’t tell you why. (Correlation/causation, etc)

Metrics also can’t tell you anything about something that doesn’t exist because you didn’t make it yet.

Then you have to decide what threshold is worth developing content for? What percentage of the player base do we expect to be power users of a feature/content, how many want it just a few times for the rewards, and so forth.

What’s DKP? Is that something old and silly? (Edit: Or gasp a player made number to determine what someone did?)

I am a proud metric. Anything I do (in game) can and will be measured!

Of course metrics tell a story. Here is one.

Enjoyability of GW2 after 9/9

Lodius.5392:

Of course metrics tell a story. Here is one.

Enjoyability of GW2 after 9/9

You mean that’s how much you enjoy GW2 after 9/9.

Rouven.7409:

What’s DKP? Is that something old and silly? (Edit: Or gasp a player made number to determine what someone did?)

I’m not entirely sure, but it’s best to stay away from welps and whatever you do don’t stand next to other people!

Math < reality… maybe

The more complex the reality, the more difficult it is to reduce it to math. We humans just imagine because we have had some success with the math and the science, we can easily reduce everything to numbers. Actually, real science is about observation of reality, not just numbers. If the reality doesn’t fit the numbers, then the numbers aren’t reality.

Problem with the social sciences (and marketing research falls under that category) is that you are dealing with very complex systems that are not easy to quantify. Maybe one day we will have Ultimate Science that describes reality in perfect detail and allows us to predict anything. Maybe. I’ll believe it when it happens.

Tachenon.5270:

Rouven.7409:

What’s DKP? Is that something old and silly? (Edit: Or gasp a player made number to determine what someone did?)

I’m not entirely sure, but it’s best to stay away from welps and whatever you do don’t stand next to other people!

I just love the irony

Metrics are not a problem. You will most likely find some comments in my post history though that one has to know how to interpret them. Not knowing what metrics are and how they are used in your every day life – pretty much every aspect, that would not be good. This is how search engines get better, this is how supermarkets determine where and how to display their products and so on and so forth.

Metrics are the result of your vibrant activities, they are in itself neither good or bad. They are a way of understanding, explaining and predicting, they are the essence of science.

gryph.8734:

Lodius.5392:

Of course metrics tell a story. Here is one.

Enjoyability of GW2 after 9/9

You mean that’s how much you enjoy GW2 after 9/9.

Oh yeah, every GW2-related forum on the internet, every map chat — all of this stuff is just teeming with people thrilled with GW2 post-9/9.

Come off it!

If anet would use in game polls (the ones they have available and have used in the past) they would see what changes people want and what people like. There is no metric that could tell you that people want the leveling system gated more than it was. And grabbing a small group that does not play your game and asking them what would get them to play it is a recipe for failure. If they were going to play the game they already would be playing it.

Asking a baseball fan what it would take for him to become a futbol fan. And then taking his ideas and changing the rules of futbol is just going to kitten off futbol fans and it most likely will not draw baseballs fans to replace all the futbol fans that are lost.

You have to cater to the fans you already have and make their experience better. Making your current fans happier will spread positive word of mouth about your company and the players will be actively “recruiting” for you. Sadly the people making these decisions just can’t or won’t accept this.

Tachenon.5270:

The unanswered questions remain: why did people leave? What prompted them to log out and never log in again?

There’s no exit survey. Even if there was, how would anet know if someone was logging out for the last time? I quit for around five months and anet never contacted me to ask me why I wasn’t playing. Maybe I played too long before leaving. Maybe I didn’t stay gone long enough. Maybe I’m not the metric they’re looking for.

And another thing: one of the anet guys said they did this because ‘over a years worth of testing with new players found we were absolutely able to keep them both more engaged, and more likely to return to keep playing Gw2 as a result of the intended system’ and then further clarified that ‘testing was done predominantly in the west focused on players who played guild wars 2 today, people who played gw2 at launch and left, people who heavily play other MMORPG’s, and people who heavily play RPG’s.’

Fascinating.

Does that mean there been a (gasp) test server, somewhere, running various NPE versions of the game all along, for testing purposes?

They make it sound like that but who are these people testing. I have never heard of anyone getting invites for a special test server. I understand NDAs and all but I would have expected some kind of slip up after a year of it. Or are these testers just friends and family of anet staff that are telling them what they want to hear. Or maybe hired from a third party company for play testing and who knows what the backgrounds of these play testers are. Are they just random people from a temp agency who have never even played games, if they do play games do they play MMOs, do they even play rpgs or are they into sports games or shooters or racing sims. Many people are only in to certain genres and so their opinion is worthless as they are not in to MMOs and they will not play this game no matter what change you make.

Saying the metrics say this is what you want is absurd when nobody who plays the game was ever asked. So what metric told you this is what your player base wants.

Rouven.7409:

I just love the irony

I’m sure William Sydney Porter would be pleased to hear this.

Hey, I shake my head a little at a few things myself, however – hands up, who here in this thread is a genuine new player?

As I’ve said a few times already, I do think that turning off the tutorial for experienced players should be possible. Let them work on the bugs and get back to this once that is fixed and we leveled a new character at that point.

I know, I’m so boring.

Edit: @ Tachenon – sounds interesting, which story would you recommend to someone who hasn’t read anything from him yet?

gryph.8734:

cranked.3812:

gryph.8734:

scerevisiae.1972:

Metrics are only good when the right things are measured and the right conclusions drawn. Otherwise they just paint the wrong picture.

Word on the street is that Anet management are overly obsessed with their graphite dashboards and the continued misreading of same is why the game continues its march into mediocrity.

If you can do any better, give it a try. Make a game and see how many people you can get to play it. See if you can put enough financing into it to make it financially viable for one year, let-alone the two that GW2 has already existed for. Go ahead. Try it. I’ll wait.

This is the worst argument I ever see to threads like this. You don’t have to be able to poor hundreds of thousands of dollars into a game and/or be able to design one to see how bad or good a game is. All you have to do is play it. Stop acting like people have to be able to create a better game in order to critique the one they are playing.

How good or bad a game is, that’s your opinion as a player. But you bet your sweet kitten there are objective measures of a game’s success as a business that most of us have not the foggiest clue about. Your denial of that fact makes it no less true. So my challenge stands. If you think you and your buddies can design a better game and make a go of it financially, go right ahead.

As cranked already said, your previous argument is stupid, and so is this rebuttal as well. A game does not have to be good to be a successful business and generate a lot of cash.

Rouven.7409:

Edit: @ Tachenon – sounds interesting, which story would you recommend to someone who hasn’t read anything from him yet?

The one where a poor charr farmer sells his cow to buy his sylvari friend some weed killer to help tame his impressive ‘hair’ only to discover that his sylvari friend cut and bailed his ‘hair’ to feed the cow (which, ironically enough, only wanted to be entertained).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._Henry

Bertrand.3057:

RC golems are gone. The metrics said they shouldn’t be there anymore. Of course they came to that conclusion. 4 out of 5 players probably stopped at the golems, spent 5 seconds trying to figure out what was going on, then gave up and moved on.

The RC golems were a great idea, and it was fun to actually get to try them out instead of just being a bystander.

The first time.

The checkerboard layout suggests at least some complexity, but the game consists entirely of ‘walk up to opponent, punch til one of you dies’. The only strategy: get in the first hit. Otherwise you lose, because you’re equally matched.

I may have come back to it 2 or 3 times. After that, I reasoned it was too slow a means of leveling up the attached heart and moved on to better things.

I don’t think it would have hurt them to leave it in untouched, but a tweak in the design would have been better. With a lot of work, it could have been made into a quick PvP format.

Tachenon.5270:

Rouven.7409:

Edit: @ Tachenon – sounds interesting, which story would you recommend to someone who hasn’t read anything from him yet?

The one where a poor charr farmer sells his cow to buy his sylvari friend some weed killer to help tame his impressive ‘hair’ only to discover that his sylvari friend cut and bailed his ‘hair’ to feed the cow (which, ironically enough, only wanted to be entertained).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._Henry

The story in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_the_Magi

Windsagio.1340:

No, the OP just doesn’t understand math.

Math also said that Harry Potter wasn’t worth publishing, Star wars would be a flop, Spiderman comics would never sell, Lord of The Rings wasn’t worth printing, and World of Warcraft wouldn’t attract a playerbase.

Aesthetics cannot be calculated for, anybody with real experience in the creative industries knows that metrics are very little nothing compared to the instincts of a talented designer, or design team.

Conncept.7638:

(…)

Aesthetics cannot be calculated for, anybody with real experience in the creative industries knows that metrics are very little nothing compared to the instincts of a good and experienced artist.

What about proportions, golden ratio and the like. Could it be that the metrics still exist, just some people grasp them intuitively (when it comes to aesthetics/art)?

It would probably be best to just make a test server with changes not planning to hit for months in advance, that is easily accessible .. like next to the play button on the launcher have a test server button instead of having to go find the server selection list etc.
A poll/survey is useless if the changes are not what the players are expecting, and each of us usually don’t expect the same things, especially with the way Anet tends to explain things.

Another thing is I would like to know is who their intended target audience actually is. These changes cater to specific player types, one that is either new to the pc in general, new to online gaming or one that needs constant positive reinforcement of success but is usually the first to game hop. The downside to these particular target audiences is that neither of them can be reliably expected to become long time players, nor make any additional cash purchases. Even so, if you’re new to pc gaming or new to online gaming you are not new to youtube, it’s usable even on a phone, do a quick search of Guild Wars 2 in youtube and sort it by date .. almost half if not more of the results have hack/glitch or bug in the title alone, so if these target audiences were even on the fence of a purchase, optics can tip them back.

Another thing, new players who have a hard time with the beginning aspects of this game, will unlikely know the difference between gems and gold, where do players get a full on detailed explanation of what gems are and the security backing gem purchases? Not to mention the trading post horribly blends the gems/gold concept together furthering the confusion to new time players.

The real problem this game had was downtime.
What simple fix could have fixed this you ask .. well for new players instead of the jumbled text on the right alerting events etc in multiple colors, make a secondary marker like the personal story quest but maybe a different color that pointed to the closest activity that would yield experience with a brief description.
http://i.imgur.com/V2PcneGl.png
(BTW could someone tell me how to show an image in a post, Thanks)

The older player base however is a bigger beast to fry, this actually requires them to either make expansions for purchase to give us more choice, add static content that everyone gets or just contually alter end game content in a way that could be interpreted as new content through targeted changes.

In the end I honestly believe the people these new changes were made for or tested for, have a high likelihood to be the first to quit before making purchases or make few infrequent purchases. The ones that actually stay with this game that last and make frequent purchases or purchases at all will have some apsect of their game play negatively affected.

In-game surveys are such a great way to gather info. A supplement to those metrics. We had surveys at the start of the game, but they got removed because “imersion”

Rouven.7409:

What about proportions, golden ratio and the like. Could it be that the metrics still exist, just some people grasp them intuitively (when it comes to aesthetics/art)?

Not WildStar.
ZING!

And if you can find a golden ratio in the atrocity that is kittenbob to explain that show’s insidious popularity, there might be a few gold in it for you. =P

Popular things happen, sometimes in spite of what people say should/will be popular. The only way to know is to find those signs of approval. Y’know, by asking.

(Back to sincerity:) Unfortunately, after a new patch comes out, it’s hard to convince players, especially long-time ones, to chop time out of their play to send up a survey. Best shot might be in email questionnaires, but even then, those opinions are likely to be polarized more than the norm.

Rouven.7409:

Conncept.7638:

(…)

Aesthetics cannot be calculated for, anybody with real experience in the creative industries knows that metrics are very little nothing compared to the instincts of a good and experienced artist.

What about proportions, golden ratio and the like. Could it be that the metrics still exist, just some people grasp them intuitively (when it comes to aesthetics/art)?

Hey, someone who actually knows their stuff.

Yes, in reality aesthetics are pre-programmed in to each and every person to some degree, there are certain things which are just good and pleasing regardless of our consciously acknowledging them.

The difference is an artist and designer has moved from unconscious recognition toward conscious calculation of aesthetic design.

So what does that mean in this situation? When a mathematician turns the average audience member into a statistic, they are calculating for something entirely subconscious, with no quantifiable method of measurement or means of solid statistically valid interpretation.

An artist on the other hand has those subconcious instinct just like everyone else has, but he can interpret his own reaction and that of the audience; and feel, more than calculate, what is right or wrong with the design as experienced by the audience.

Problem with testing the new player experience is that we are all not new players. Actually the opposite. We survived our lack of a meaningful tutorial, figured out stuff on our own. Learned to rely on 3rd party sites or forum posts to enlighten us. See the OMG sticky in the Player Helping Player board. The features in this game are now 2nd nature to us. Start a new character, buy one of each weapon the profession can use and quickly level each weapon up to skill 5. We’ve become proficient at dodging, well mostly, and swapping between weapons like experts.

We are exactly the WRONG people to ask about modifying the new player experience. The only people worse to ask are the devs themselves because they’ve been living with this game for years. You don’t get perspective because you are to close to it.

Now asking us what we would like to see turned off once we leveled our character to 80 or just past each of the gates, we’re the right guys to ask.

Intuitive logic?

Rauderi.8706:

Rouven.7409:

What about proportions, golden ratio and the like. Could it be that the metrics still exist, just some people grasp them intuitively (when it comes to aesthetics/art)?

Not WildStar.
ZING!

And if you can find a golden ratio in the atrocity that is kittenbob to explain that show’s insidious popularity, there might be a few gold in it for you. =P

Popular things happen, sometimes in spite of what people say should/will be popular. The only way to know is to find those signs of approval. Y’know, by asking.

(Back to sincerity:) Unfortunately, after a new patch comes out, it’s hard to convince players, especially long-time ones, to chop time out of their play to send up a survey. Best shot might be in email questionnaires, but even then, those opinions are likely to be polarized more than the norm.

Haha – absolutely, I should have worded it a bit better in any case. Metrics in itself are not the cause, but the result. This does not exclude the possibility of exceptions. Personal taste is personal. Yet there seems to be a wide consensus among groups of people about “good” taste and/or beauty.

Most likely those “soulless” metrics have been to a large degree the reason why we have (and are playing) this game in the first place. Some like it, some don’t.

anzenketh.3759:

Behellagh.1468:

Metrics are tools, nothing more.

The problem with too much focus on metrics is that you tend to design a game to match the metrics instead of innovating. I hope that ArenaNet understands this or they will fall pray to the same problem that the social game industry fell into. Too Many Clones. (Or is the AAA gaming industry already at that problem).

Extra Credits: Metrics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqGcXOksFGg

The above video explains another reason that is applicable to Guild Wars 2. Often metrics based games create inaccessible products only accessible to a niche player-base. This is perhaps what happened in the initial development of this game. Leading to a complete re-design of core systems.

‘For gamers, by gamers’. Yes, they created a niche game. However, I think their original scope was to say ‘a fun game designed by people that know how to have fun’ a very different statement. The second one is a lot more inclusive than the first one. The first one is catering to those that identify themselves as gamers, a much smaller subset of the overall market than the second one.

Conncept.7638:

(…)
The difference is an artist and designer has moved from unconscious recognition toward conscious calculation of aesthetic design.

So what does that mean in this situation? When a mathematician turns the average audience member into a statistic, they are calculating for something entirely subconscious, with no quantifiable method of measurement or means of solid statistically valid interpretation.

An artist on the other hand has those subconcious instinct just like everyone else has, but he can interpret his own reaction and that of the audience; and feel, not calculate, what is right or wrong with the design as experienced by the audience.

I absolutely agree. You may have also read my previous comment that I said metrics are not the problem, but how they may be interpreted.
Yet I cannot apply this to this situation as there where most likely many people involved in making these changes and I could not accuse them of behaving like thoughtless robots.
I cannot fathom many of these changes as I am not the intended target. Is this not an often heard “complaint” about unskipeable tutorials (in other games) even if you are playing it for the first time simply because you intuitively grasp how they work because of your experience?

Maybe the voice of the forums isnt as strong or as correct as it thinks it is, when compared to what the people who are logged in, playing without so much as a peep are actually doing.

Ant.3415:

These forums need mandatory drug testing.

Just this. Farewell.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Maybe the voice of the forums isnt as strong or as correct as it thinks it is, when compared to what the people who are logged in, playing without so much as a peep are actually doing.

Bingo. I know they like to think they know everything, but sometimes (yeah…sometimes) they may just be flat out wrong.

Somewhat recently Turbine devs put things (and some people) in perspective. You might check it out.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Fenar.4025:

Actually, real science is about observation of reality, not just numbers. If the reality doesn’t fit the numbers, then the numbers aren’t reality.

Actually, real science is in fact about the oberservation of our view of reality and making modells that fit our obervations about how we think reality could be. But actually, no one knows what reality (i.e. the universe …) really is.

Interesting reading: Quantum Psychology

Greetings.

MikaHR.1978:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Maybe the voice of the forums isnt as strong or as correct as it thinks it is, when compared to what the people who are logged in, playing without so much as a peep are actually doing.

Bingo. I know they like to think they know everything, but sometimes (yeah…sometimes) they may just be flat out wrong.

Somewhat recently Turbine devs put things (and some people) in perspective. You might check it out.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Voice of the forums? Heh.

Are you enjoying the GW2 that metrics have wrought? Do you love ascended gear? Are you mad (with joy) about the Living Story? Does the revamp of the trait system excite you to such a degree that you no longer need coffee, and in fact must resort to some sort of sleep aid when you wish to sleep? Does NPE thrill you beyond measure?

If so, well, rejoice, I guess. You are the Chosen Ones. The Holy Metrics have spoken!

If in this age you think you are something more than metric be it in game or in real life you just keep the tin foil hat on and carry on.

Tachenon.5270:

MikaHR.1978:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Maybe the voice of the forums isnt as strong or as correct as it thinks it is, when compared to what the people who are logged in, playing without so much as a peep are actually doing.

Bingo. I know they like to think they know everything, but sometimes (yeah…sometimes) they may just be flat out wrong.

Somewhat recently Turbine devs put things (and some people) in perspective. You might check it out.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Voice of the forums? Heh.

Are you enjoying the GW2 that metrics have wrought? Do you love ascended gear? Are you mad (with joy) about the Living Story? Does the revamp of the trait system excite you to such a degree that you no longer need coffee, and in fact must resort to some sort of sleep aid when you wish to sleep? Does NPE thrill you beyond measure?

If so, well, rejoice, I guess. You are the Chosen Ones. The Holy Metrics have spoken!

And thats where youre wrong:

Ascended
Traits
Leveling change (NPE)

was done on direct FEEDBACK (read whines) from players.

Enjoy.

MikaHR.1978:

Tachenon.5270:

MikaHR.1978:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Maybe the voice of the forums isnt as strong or as correct as it thinks it is, when compared to what the people who are logged in, playing without so much as a peep are actually doing.

Bingo. I know they like to think they know everything, but sometimes (yeah…sometimes) they may just be flat out wrong.

Somewhat recently Turbine devs put things (and some people) in perspective. You might check it out.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Voice of the forums? Heh.

Are you enjoying the GW2 that metrics have wrought? Do you love ascended gear? Are you mad (with joy) about the Living Story? Does the revamp of the trait system excite you to such a degree that you no longer need coffee, and in fact must resort to some sort of sleep aid when you wish to sleep? Does NPE thrill you beyond measure?

If so, well, rejoice, I guess. You are the Chosen Ones. The Holy Metrics have spoken!

And thats where youre wrong:

Ascended
Traits
Leveling change (NPE)

was done on direct FEEDBACK (read whines) from players.

Enjoy.

Heh. Voice of the forums, indeed.

Don’t even try to argue with these people Vayne, they’ve already decided what the game is going to be to them. The forums have created a stigma for players – if they’re here, they’re here to rage. And usually about things they personally have very little experience of.

Gnat.9405:

Don’t even try to argue with these people Vayne, they’ve already decided what the game is going to be to them. The forums have created a stigma for players – if they’re here, they’re here to rage. And usually about things they personally have very little experience of.

Gah, my support is coming out of the woodwork today. Well I knew you guys were out there.

I argue with people because the act of arguing reveals both sides of the story to the vast majority here…who lurk.

When I moderated guildwars2forums.com, only 15% of people who read the forums ever posted. The same is true in other groups I’ve moderated.

Someone needs to give the other side of the story. I elected myself to do so.

The metrics situation is very much part of that. Anet has information we don’t have and has every right to use that to try to make their game better. Because such a small percentage of people ever post, we only get a small percentage of opinions on forums, and that’s of people who come to forums. There are plenty of people who don’t.

Many changes to the game have been asked for on the forums before. But people don’t seem to remember that.

Hyperbolic hint: this thread was not originally about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb), and only derailed into discussion about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb plus peal of thunder) thanks to the contributions of a handful of folks who for reasons unknown to science seem to want it to be about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb plus peal of thunder plus classic Creature From the Black Lagoon dun dun DUN musical accent).

The ‘gamers’ who are ‘still here, still playing’ referenced in the opening post are not limited to only those gamers who also happen to frequent these hallowed forums, nor is the burgeoning (that means getting bigger) dissatisfaction in regard to GW2 among gamers restricted to only those gamers who frequent these hallowed forums.

Smoke gets in your eyes, after all, and mirrors would do well to reflect a little more before sending back images.

Tachenon.5270:

Hyperbolic hint: this thread was not originally about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb), and only derailed into discussion about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb plus peal of thunder) thanks to the contributions of a handful of folks who for reasons unknown to science seem to want it to be about (heavy reverb) ‘the forums’ (/heavy reverb plus peal of thunder plus classic Creature From the Black Lagoon dun dun DUN musical accent).

The ‘gamers’ who are ‘still here, still playing’ referenced in the opening post are not limited to only those gamers who also happen to frequent these hallowed forums, nor is the burgeoning (that means getting bigger) dissatisfaction in regard to GW2 among gamers restricted to only those gamers who frequent these hallowed forums.

Smoke gets in your eyes, after all, and mirrors would do well to reflect a little more before sending back images.

Yeah, you dont seem to get a hint with “tiny group within a small group”

Vayne.8563:

my support is coming out of the woodwork today…

I argue with people…

I elected myself to do so….

Well, this sums your character up nicely.

People have a right to believe and think what they want, you arguing with them just because you personally do not believe the same thing is not helpful or constructive.

Aedelric.1287:

Vayne.8563:

my support is coming out of the woodwork today…

I argue with people…

I elected myself to do so….

Well, this sums your character up nicely.

People have a right to believe and think what they want, you arguing with them just because you personally do not believe the same thing is not helpful or constructive.

Well, OP seems to have same idea, but i dont see you saying anything about that.

Rants and tantrums are also not constructive or helpful in any way.

MikaHR.1978:

Well, OP seems to have same idea, but i dont see you saying anything about that.

Rants and tantrums are also not constructive or helpful in any way.

Because I, to a degree, think the OP is right. Arena Net rely too heavily on metrics, but if you read the posts in this topic you already know what I think.

I also agree with what you say about rants and tantrums though not many here in this topic are doing so, mostly people are just nitpicking each others words. Or in the case of Vayne, arguing with people because no one is allowed to have an opposing view.

Aedelric.1287:

MikaHR.1978:

Well, OP seems to have same idea, but i dont see you saying anything about that.

Rants and tantrums are also not constructive or helpful in any way.

Because I, to a degree, think the OP is right. Arena Net rely too heavily on metrics, but if you read the posts in this topic you already know what I think.

I also agree with what you say about rants and tantrums though not many here in this topic are doing so, mostly people are just nitpicking each others words. Or in the case of Vayne, arguing with people because no one is allowed to have an opposing view.

One day you should count the negative threads that I don’t post in.

The fact is, I post in relatively few negative threads, but in those threads I post a lot. I have no problem with constructive criticism.

I have problems with people saying the sky is falling, generally over-reacting, and using hyperbole to try to make points that they could make just as easily without it. Making stuff up doesn’t make any post stronger. Exaagerating for effect is okay sometimes, but not when you’re trying to prove a factual point. Saying that no one likes something when some people like it is factually wrong.

But there are plenty of complaint threads I never post in and some I even agree in. You just choose to see the ones I’m most vocal in.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

They make it sound like that but who are these people testing. I have never heard of anyone getting invites for a special test server.

My guild was on the test server shortly before the roll out of ascended gear. Many were booted from the test server for being “overly critical”. I’m unsure if the test server is still full of actual players or if it even still exists.

@Vayne.8563

Constructive answer/feedback usually require question. It is a sort of social agreement.

This is basicaly like a difference between a gentelman which ask you in the pub if you you would like to get involved with him erotically – and one which forcefully sodomize you in dark alley and ask “Do like it?”…

ArenaNet does not deserve constructive feedback (yes, this is something one need to actually deserve)
People payed them for something (some handsomly -.-) and not it is being taken from them. Not in 20 years, not in 10 or 5. In 2 years.

They are turning it into grindy pay-2-win it is in china, and are not duing it for our satisfaction. They are not doing it to improve it as well – they are doing it for money! They deserve sh?t they get →TO THE FULEST<-